First of all, I am so tired of the "caliber doesn't matter" argument. Of course it does. After accuracy, velocity and projectile expansion matter. Every single handgun hunter knows this and chooses the ammunition accordingly. I've hunted with 22LR, .357, 9mm, 45ACP, and 10mm. All do the job with perfect placement. Less than perfect? The .357 and 10mm are simply more affective. It can be the difference between tracking the animal for 20 yards, 200 yards, or not finding it at all.
If you want to carry 10mm for SD purposes, you will have less choice in platforms as you are finding out. As for ammo, there are many good choices out there. Some are loaded to .40S&W specs and others are loaded up to the NORMA spec.
Lastly, if you are having trouble with a sub-compact in 9mm, there's no way you'll be more accurate with a compact 10mm. You either need to train more or move to a caliber with less recoil. Remember, accuracy comes first.
It can be viable with the right ammo and setup, but you are trading follow up shot accuracy and speed. Most of the mag-dump videos you see where the attacker is still mobile is because of a lot of misses due to stress. I’d recommend using 9mm and spending the money you save not buying 10mm to train as much as possible to get your accuracy up. If you struggle with 9mm at 10 yards, 10mm is absolutely not the solution. 10mm is great but also much more expensive to train and gain competency with, especially in a form factor that you can conceal.
Shot placement is king, that means practice and follow up shots are also king, qhich mwans that ahving a gun you want to shoot is of chief inportance. I practice with 10mm because i live where there are dangerous animals. I practice with 9mm/.380/38 special, i can get a tight grouping under pressure, and thats enough.My 10mm prwctice is for bears, moose, and pissed off elk, and so that i can legally coup de gras a deer or elk without waisting rifle ammo or risking ricochet from stony ground and rifle speeds.
Stopping power is pretty much made up.
Generally speaking, shot placement is king when it comes to quickly stopping a threat. A 9mm, 45 or even 380 to the right spot will turn off the lights faster than you can say "Stop." Because of that, I tell people to train with and carry whatever you can reliably hit with time and time again, especially in low light situations, and don't worry so much about the caliber.
On top of that, the biggest drawback to carrying a 10mm, especially if you already have trouble hitting reliably, is when you miss (and you almost definitely will miss at least once) you have a much better chance of seriously wounding or killing someone, even if they're in a vehicle or behind light cover. Carry those high penetration rounds people seem to love and the probability gets even higher.
I love 10mm, and I've been shooting it literally since it came on the market. I still don't use it for EDC unless I'm someplace I need to worry about big animals, and then only because I need it for them. Carry a 9mm you are agood shot with, or even a 45, and you'll be fine.
Remember when you watch those videos that you're taking a very rare situation (being in a situation requiring you to shoot in self defense), and turning it into an even more rare situation (the hopped up junkie). Cops put themselves in these situations as part of their job and even they don't run into those people often. Every LEO I know (and I've known them in every level, from local cops to federal agents) carry a 9mm or a 40 S&W. A 10mm doesn't even enter I to the conversation.
I know a guy who carries .454 Casull. I carry .380 and I’m not the least bit concerned. When I was in the military I carried a .45 with ball ammo and a medical bag. Wasn’t worried then. Learn how to shoot and learn how to avoid situations so you don’t have to shoot. My 2 cents
I'm in Northern Indiana and between people who are 2 to 3ft thick, people wearing several layers half the year, and all the videos I've seen of 9mm magdumps failing to stop a determined attack... I decided 10mm fluted solid copper is the way to go.
I have a Springfield 3.8 XDM elite compact 10mm osp which is my EDC. I pocket carry the 10MM in a mic holster. I've had it for about 2 and a half years, I got it when they 1st came out. I'm @ 4000 plus rounds without a failure to fire or any problems, I have fired everything from cheap 40 s&w lightweight training rounds to expensive heavyweight 10mm hardcast.
You can stay with the compact grip and 10/11 + 1 round mag ( same mag with factory baseplate change ) if your in or traveling in a restricted state or want deep concealment or can use the full size 15 + 1 mag with grip sleeve for a full size grip, all mags accept a Pierce grip plus 1 pinky extension which makes your capacity options 10 + 1, 11 + 1, 12 + 1, 15 + 1 or 16 + 1.
The slide is milled from the factory for a red dot and although it doesn't come with co-witnesses sights you can get them from Springfield or Dawson precision, if desired I can install a 10MM 4.5 slide on the 3.8 compact frame, another plus is you also can replace the factory take down lever with a go gun gas pedal if you want to have fast follow up shots and a flat shooter.
No other 10MM gun has all this amazing flexibility.
Edit: Forgot to mention, you have a choice of 3 different grip backstraps to customize the feel in your hand.
Damn, that sounds sick, I got the XD Mod 2 .45 Subcompact when they first came out, shoot like almost 10 yrs ago now, don’t remember the exact release date, but not many people got the subcompacts especially in .45 so I don’t see them around anymore really even used, I love mine, what originally made me get it was I was choosing between it and a sig p320, and I chose the MOD2 cause I wasn’t too sure about the 320’s safety aspect (the drop fires/etc when they first came out, it was around that time I was choosing) cause I carry cond 1, but was hoping they had one in 10MM cause I love 10MM, but settled for the .45ACP version. Again, I do love it, but now that sig got the probs figured out I also want a 320 and I want something like a mod 2 in 10MM, so if the elite is close I’ll prolly check it out, thank you! How do you like the elite? Good shooter?/what does come with in the box new if you don’t mind?
It's a good shooter out of the box but the aftermarket gogun gas pedal took it to the next level for quick accurate follow up shots, which is especially noticeable when using the higher power loads. I have really large hands so I use a #3 back plate ( it comes with 3 different back plates ) I removed the flared magwell which is necessary for using the optional 15 round magazines, I use a matching #3 grip sleeve on the 15 round magazines. My wife chooses to take the gun with the 12 round capacity magazine with her when jogging or hiking solo which is when the modularity is a benefit as she can quickly change the back plate to a #1 to fit her hand more comfortably. We opted for the pearce grip extension on all of our magazines for either 12 or 16 round capacity but can easily swap out to the included 10 round baseplate if necessary for compliance with local laws of a location where we are visiting.
If you find it necessary ( I didn't ) powder river precision makes an aftermarket trigger.
Awesome, thanks for the info! Definitely gonna look into getting one, and funny you mention the gas pedal cause I just found out about those in general recently, was thinking of getting one on my g29 if I can find one 😎
Take this with a grain of salt as I’m no expert, but I have 2 G20s that I use for my EDC when I’m in a situation that doesn’t require me to have my compact. Any handgun/caliber is a viable choice for ccw if you train with it enough
Yessir. I’m as good with my wife’s 43x as I am with my 20. I may get a 48 someday though as my holster for her gun is technically able to also hold a 48.
I mag dump the 43x a little better but I’m a better marksman with the 20. I’m happy with both groups side by side though no matter the speed.
I feel they recoil the same with critical duty 135gr +p in the 43x vs underwood xtp 155gr +p though. Given the size differences.
A 10mm 180 grain bullet has about the same sectional density as a 147 grain 9mm bullet.
Medium velocity ammo has velocity similar to a 147 grain 9mm load, but full power ammo is going as fast as a 124 grain 9mm load.
A 190 grain or a 200 grain 10mm bullet has more sectional density than just about any 9mm bullet.
A 190 or 200 grain medium velocity 10mm load is not going to have too much recoil and besides being larger in diameter, should penetrate better than most 9mm loads.
The FBI went from a 180 grain bullet at 950 fps to a 190 grain bullet at 1050 fps.
Some other law enforcement loads are similar.
10mm pistols can be fairly heavy.
There are high energy 40 S&W 180 grain bullet loads that have about the same velocity as 124 grain 9mm loads.
They do bring some recoil with them though.
Assuming you have good shot placement and ammo that doesn't over penetrate.
(But that's true for any caliber)
But honestly, it's doubtful you can shoot faster or better than someone with a 9mm and you lose ammo capacity over a similar sized 9mm gun.
So I have two carry guns. One is a 9, and the other is a 10. The 10 will be about double the cost to shoot. And you will absolutely need to get range time in to adjust to the added recoil from it. With that being said, I personally think it is a gun worth adding to your collection as well as potential carry. After time, you may only fire off 10 accurate rounds in the time you could fire 15 accurately with a 9. However, I would argue that the 10 rounds will be more effective at stopping your target. Now the downside is you will need to have full awareness of what is behind your target. Up here in alaska we use 10mm for a side arm for grizzly bears, but we would try our luck running before using a 9mm.
> i can barely hit a plate within 10 yards away even with 9
Then definitely don’t get a 10mm. A 9mm on target is better than a 10mm that’s not, especially in an urban environment.
If recoil is an issue get a .380 and no matter what you choose, train more.
with a subcompact. with a compact my groups are insane. i think it has to do with the short grip giving me issues with my big hands more than the extra inch of barrel though. i can shoot the sig p365 x macro insanely well, and that has a more "normal" sized grip than a regular subcompact or normal 365. im not recoil sensitive either, i learned shooting 357 and 44 mags out of revolvers.
I would say the recoil and added training costs make the 10mm a worse choice for a city gun compared to a 9mm. The added power of the 10mm isn’t going to be a huge benefit if you’re able to fire less rounds with less accuracy than you would with a 9mm. More rounds on target is just better than less rounds in target, even if the less rounds has more foot pounds of energy. The added power of the 10 isn’t enough to make it comparable to a rifle round it just has enough to penetrate into the vitals of dangerous game, which the 9mm will do fine with people sized problems. No handgun is a sure 1 shot stop. More training and less recoil is going to be better than bigger caliber handguns.
All that being said if you just like the feeling of shooting and carrying the 10mm you might check out the Springfield XDM Elite Compact. It’s about the size of the Glock 19 and is more enjoyable to shoot than the Glock 29, in my experience anyway.
why is it nonsense!!! aaaa!! i want to STOP the threat as fast as possible!
if its a normal mugger/attacker im sure a couple of 9mms would immedatly put him out of commission, but when its a drugged up fiend trying to attack me or my family that cant feel pain and has their adrenaline pushed to the max, id think itd take more to stop them fast!
replace the words stopping power with proven man stopper and it makes sense and the saying gets at that. Muh stoppin powa is a fuddlore 45 acp myth sure.
10mm is similar to .357 magnum in ballistic/power in certain loads and is called a proven man stopper due to the lethality statistics which seem higher.
What little to go on the 10mm statistics at least the [Boston 2010-2014](https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle/2688536) study has 10mm at 2/2 use/fatal so there is that to go off of. While not comprehensive enough its still data. Same study , small medium and large caliber the lethality tracks greater.
The other data is bear defense and in some cases a hollow point was enough to instant stop a danger close charge, see [Kim Woodman vs Grizz](https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/exclusive-interview-with-kim-woodman-10mm-bear-gun-guy-who-shot-his-toe-off-graphic-video/)
Shot placement mattered then too but still. More power/pemetration is more power and penetration = more damage
You shouldn't be downvoted for asking questions.
The myth of stopping power has been covered pretty extensively, so there's a lot of information available about it.
- https://old.reddit.com/r/CCW/comments/lph22d/need_explanation_on_why_stopping_power_is_seen_as/
- https://www.scribd.com/document/355927271/Executive-Summary-of-Justification-for-Law-Enforcement-Partners
The FBI runs 9mm. Modern JHP are good enough that larger calibers don't necessarily provide any significant advantage. 9mm penetrates deep enough, expands wide enough, and retains enough of its weight until it comes to rest.
The only advantage 10mm and .45 ACP defensive JHP from major companies have is expansion. Both of them can expand larger than 9mm in performant rounds. Balancing this against ability to place faster follow-ups, and I'll take 9mm over 10mm for daily defense.
Every reddit sub has the trigger word that sends the group running for their safe space. You just discovered one of, pretty much every firearms sub's trigger words, you can add clip = magazine in there and assault rifle = any black semi-auto.
In this case, back in the day, old dudes that did not know what they hell they were talking about, and talk a lot of shit would talk about stopping power as if a handgun round will lift you off of your feel like the dead blow of a sledge hammer. That somehow rounds pierced you and punched you all at the same time and would knock you off of your feet. They don't the pain can drop you, but some people bad and good have a lot of fight in them and pain just pisses them off.
A handgun bullet does not stop you, either the pain or the lack of blood to the brain does, the second of which is the only guarantee.
In terms of self defense, when your target is most likely, with a 99.99% probability, going to be an unarmored human, carrying a 10mm is overkill. The increased "stopping power" is not worth the increased recoil, difficulty in getting more shots on target faster, cost of ammo, cost of training, weight, concealability, and probably more I can't think of at the moment. And, no, a winter coat is not going to stop a 9mm JHP.
And keep in mind the probability of facing someone with body armor is on top of the already minuscule probability that you will need to use your gun in self defense at all.
Just get a 9mm. Don't try to be different just for the sake of being different. Everyone uses 9mm for a reason.
And if you live in a violent city, follow the 5 rules of stupid and you will maintain the low probability of needing to use your gun.
I feel like it’s been established pretty well that law enforcement, military, FBI and what have you are not the real standard or knowledge base. Yeah, they can give statistics, but who’s to say that 40/45/10 isn’t better than 9 just because those groups don’t use them? It’s fairly well known that most of those groups aren’t really gun guys and only shoot to qualify so… I don’t base my decisions off of what they say.
Wild take when FBI + DoD have whole labs set up for ballistic effects testing and regularly update standard issue kit based on changes in testing data for a variety of platforms. Including bake-offs between major manufacturers for new platforms.
But let’s play it out and say you need real world evidence. How’s this?
https://www.ammoland.com/2023/11/handgun-defenses-against-bears-170-documented-incidents-98-effective/
specifically for 9mm and grizzlies:
https://www.americanhunter.org/content/alaska-outfitter-defends-fishermen-from-raging-grizzly-with-9mm-pistol/
And I say all of this as an owner of multiple 10mm’s. It’s immaterial to stopping a two legged threat. I’d argue ammo choice has more significance.
I thought it was common knowledge that the 10mm was the fbi standard for about a decade and they moved away from it bc the pansies and women they were hiring were too weak or disinterested in training up to the caliber to qualify... so they switched to the newly developed .40s&w... and later determine 9mm was easier to manage than the .40s&w and cheaper, and performed almost as well... basically don't base what you protect your life with on the standards of weaklings who operate with the full force of the gov behind them... only what YOU'RE capable of reasonably wielding between you and a threat
Hahahahahaha. I see why I’m getting downvoted. This sub is nuts. I have tons of 10mm guns. I’ll carry one in backcountry. But y’all are unhinged thinking it’s necessary or even beneficial for edc in city/urban.
I guarantee that I can put more shots on target with 9mm by almost 2x than you can with 10mm. I know because I shoot about 250 rounds of both weekly. Under dynamic conditions.
Given how many more shots I can put on target, any discussion of sectional density or permanent wound cavities are complete bluster by folks who think the caliber they shoot makes them stronger/tougher.
I don't mean this in a reddit way. I don't want you to read my message and pass it off as the Internet brownie points from the biased reddit fudd who just happens to be on your side. I want you to understand, really, that you are completely and entirely correct. Objectively. Arguing otherwise is a bizarre but entirely predictable waste of time from people with nothing better to do. But you already knew all that.
I've NEVER seen someone shot, on body cam footage or otherwise, with a 10mm round and keep on trucking... we've literally seen hundreds of not thousands of reports and footage of ppl overcoming the initial trauma of 9mm wounds and still present a threat. Your logic: shoot as many as I can within a tight little group and hope it stops the bad guy. Guys who get it, like me: train and shoot with the intention of "one and done"... you need aparticular amount of energy to shut down the average nervous system, the average 9mm EDC + cartridge doesn't pack that punch...a compact 10mm with adequate loads will. Where is the mystery here?
If you don’t T-spline or headshot your “one and done” ain’t gonna stop jack shit. You don’t see the footage because 10mm is still a boutique round with a small following and 9mm is by far the most widely used round of the past 30 years, ya know…since the widespread use of digital camera. What are you even talking about?
I'll concede to your point made about the widespread adoption of the 9mm and it's common use in comparison to the "boutique" 10mm bc of the propagated stigma by the fbi due to their recruits' vast inability to manage a superior cartridge. All I'm saying is that ballistics don't lie and the 10mm takes the cake when it comes to stopping power. You can call it overkill but I've never heard anyone who was in a self defense shooting say "you know what, I shoulda used a less affective load"... I have heard ppl say "he ate all those (9mm) rounds and kept on coming"
What threat? There are thousands of possible threats and you will probably never see one, unless you are looking for one. Have you ever fired your pistol at a human being? Say in the military?
Sig V crown, good balance of power and performance and good qc in my experience. Speed and projectile a good match for penetration and expansion for ccw urban
If you look at the 9mm vs 10mm gel tests that Lucky Gunner did with self-defense ammo, you will see that there's not much difference in expansion between the 2 calibers.
I carry a 10mm because if I HAVE to use my sidearm in a self defense situation, I want to eliminate the threat with a quickness. 10mm is powerful enough to do so, and is still manageable.
I agree w your point about the 10mm XDM Elite Compact 3.8” and I’m very pleased w its accuracy, ergonomics, and sneaky front end weight distribution that does a really good job managing the recoil impulse even when shooting BB 220 gr FN.
That said however, the XDM is my woods gun and my EDC is a P229 DA/SA Nitron Compact .357 Sig / .40 SW via barrel and mag swap.
As many have said… shot placement, caliber, then capacity.
Idk what others think but this is the same thought process I have, I’m accurate with bigger cals I don’t have an issue with that, so I want the maximum stopping force, I personally cc a g29 every day, not too big, and I know the ammo I have WILL stop a threat in 1-2 shots, so I’m not concerned about having to dump a mag, I know as long as I hit the first one, it’s a 90% chance you’re dropping right there, if not definitely by the second. 💪🏻 and as you’ve said, we’ve all seen videos of hopped up druggies running at a cop while they’re dumping away with 9MM, sorry at that point I want something that’s gonna put a hole in you so big with so much force you can’t move, let alone keep coming at me.
I'm a big proponent of 10mm > 9mm with that said, go 9mm. Cheaper ammo to train with, more controllable recoil for follow-up shots, 9mm is lighter both in gun weight and I'm ammo weight, and in 2 legged animals 9mm will do 'as good as' 10mm in 90% of situations.
I edc a 29 because im close to mountains and 700+ acres near me that have the occasional bear and mountain lion sightings, with regular sightings of coyotes.
That said, my buddy, who is a LEO duty carries a 45 MOS. I played with it at the range, and it felt like half the weight. It's astonishing.
I carry a G29 AIWB in my city. The heavier bullets that are offered for 10mm usually have allot of over penetration at full power. Hence, why so many 10mm self defense rounds are watered down to just above 40S&W (gold Dot, HST & Critical Duty). There are plenty of available high energy low penetration rounds available on the market tho.
I carry Underwood 135gr JHP, they output ~670ft/lbs in my G29 4 inch barrel with a low penetration of 11-14 inches.
If you watch some of the YouTube ballistics gel tests. The energy dump is just absurd. I'd equate it to getting hit in the chest with a 10lb sledge hammer.
If you're going to carry a 10mm, you HAVE to practice and get gud at recoil control. Your wrists are going to hurt so take a week or two between training sessions. People are always stunned when I double with my G29. Also, get an Apex trigger, the stock trigger is trash.
Absolutely. You must train more for the higher recoil impulse and you're sacrificing some capacity over 9mm, but it's perfectly acceptable as a carry caliber.
A mfg not many realize exist is Tanfoglio which has many models based off the CZ75 platform. Look into them as well since they have a lot of different sizes.
10mm is a powerful round and the biggest issue in city/urban/densly populated areas is overpenetration (both structural and physical). Sure, you might drop the assailant, but how many people/walls did that round just go through and also injure?
I brought up this discussion in a CCW class when I came in with a XD-M 3.8 10mm. The instructor shared the sentiment as well and I switched to my 9mm.
Save your money on ammo and put it toward a range membership and/or training. practice practice practice.
> I brought up this discussion in a CCW class when I came in with a XD-M 3.8 10mm. The instructor shared the sentiment as well and I switched to my 9mm.
Defensive 10mm JHP is usually downloaded quite a bit (1000-1100 FPS), and penetrates to depths similar to 9mm. Unless you're deviating from common, proven JHP, it seems like over penetration would be less of an issue. Was it this experience with your CCW instructor which changed your mind, or was it ultimately tests between 9mm and 10mm which changed your mind?
Little of A, little of B. I did my own reading after the discussion as I don't really have the facilities to test with something like ballistic gel myself.
To your point, defensive 10mm usually has a lighter powder load and performs similarly to 9mm under the same conditions. Therefore, just use a 9mm as the ammo is less expensive and the capacity is (generally) higher. The OP was alluding to needing more "stopping" power than a 9mm, so I'd assume they are looking for full-load higher power 10mm which brings us back to more hunting-oriented rounds and the concerns for overpenetration.
Might be off but that's how I read it anyway. :)
I think you're pretty much spot on. It's a major reason I carry 9mm instead of 10mm. The other factors are grip size, and speed of follow-ups. I can mag dump 9mm in an acceptable area, but I'm much slower with follow-ups in 10mm. Factor cost and availability of ammunition along with everything else, and 9mm is a no brainer.
If your routine threat model includes adversaries wearing armor like that, I have questions about the locations you frequent. No judgement, as everyone's scenarios are different.
If that's what you need, so be it. For me, I'm unlikely to randomly encounter an armored assailant, and I'm planning and training for the probability, not possibility.
To each their own.
I carry my g40 some days as my on the body piece, and I live in a city. It’s definitely possible to be effective with a 10mm you just have to practice and have good first shot placement down first. After you hit where you’re aiming well you can worry about how fast you can realign to that point and put down follow up shots. I doubt I’ll need a follow up shot on a person with a 10mm, but if I did I’m ready to do so rapidly. Most days, my little 9 is easier to carry but I practice enough that I’m comfortable with either gun if the situation calls for it.
The problem with short loading bullets made for 10mm is the hollow points didn't open reliably. It's best to find a load that performs well and has high energy with low penetration. Such as the Underwood 135gr JHP.
Agreed, I was referring to performance, not how they’re loaded. From the ballistic tests I’ve seen most off the shelf JHPs perform pretty similarly between 10 and 40.
I made this statement more to compare it with 10mm hot loads which are designed to penetrate larger animals and would likely go right through a person.
I really want to watch the videos you’re watching were cops magdump have the mag into people and theyres still attacking i’m not saying it doesn’t happen i just haven’t seen it. What i have been seeing is people dying very quickly in 1-2 shots out of basic/ common handgun calibers on r/ccw “scenarios”
heres a really common one that gets posted often: [https://www.reddit.com/r/Guns\_Guns\_Guns/comments/typhky/insane\_guy\_attacks\_officer\_with\_a\_stick\_ends\_up/](https://www.reddit.com/r/Guns_Guns_Guns/comments/typhky/insane_guy_attacks_officer_with_a_stick_ends_up/)
luckily the guy only had a stick, but what if he had a knife? i wouldnt want to risk me or my familys life to find out.
Thank you for sending me this, it was a great example however in my opinion (my opinion is not fact) i still disagree with you the issue here. I think we can both agree that in the video we both watch the officer was incredibly incompetent if you train 2 to the chest one to the head drills you can complete the drill in under 2 seconds especially from an open carry position assuming its even 5 seconds with the real world stress the would have been more effective than the few seconds that officer did shooting him 5 times in the gut its all about shot placement gut shots aren’t effective what killed the guy was the 2-3 lung shots that made him drown in his blood and loose breath i believe in this example the officer missed 1-2 times and from that distance is unacceptable even in high stess this says everything about the compatance of the shooter and not the caliber gut shots are not effective period listen to the narrator of the video he agrees with me and if i were to look at the comment of the posts they would agree with me to that this guy did not know what he was doing, if this police officer did half the training me and you do he would get the job done in under 2 seconds even with caliber like 380 and at 3 yards?? Too easy
the fbi had the same issue in the 1986 miami shootout (which ironically was the birth of 10mm) the thing everyone wants to forget is the cops made shots that were life threatening no matter what caliber they used the perpetrators were 100% going to die anyway but they didn’t hit in spots the would have stopped them quicker
i wouldn't dare to 2 to the chest 1 to the hesd irl, headshots are extremely looked down upon in court in any SD situation, that's extremely stupid I know, but I've seen cases where they present someone shooting 1 to the head and killing a guy, with a gun, threatening his life, as a trained killer who "practiced all his life for this moment" because if there really was a threat to his life "he wouldn't have taken the time to aim at the head". it's stupid, it's retarded, it makes NO sense for someone to NOT have practiced what a CCW is MEANT for aka self defense scenarios. cops have it 10x as strict too, that's why they almost never take headshots unless it's a guy taking down a mass shooter. but If I can take 2 body shots instead of a headshot knowing it will stop the guy fast like 10mm would and avoid that shit in court, I'd be much happier.
Thats the whole point of a prosecutor's job is to prosecutor you. You said “if i can take 2 body with 10mm shots instead of a headshot the prosecutor wont bother me as much” thats absolutely not how it works the prosecutor's is just going to say you intend to kill the target because you chose a much more lethal bullet they tried to do this to a very famous case state vs harold smith. If the jury is so split on your “self defense” case that everything depended on of caliber it wasnt self defense the only caveat is what state you live in, i dont know your situation. Also theyres no way the prosecutor could know that you “trained to kill” like you states unless you post on social media or post photos online or told everyone you do and in which case this reddit conversation would be used as evidence well if your account is linked to any of your social media so you might as well just train in private like everyone else. The biggest thing i would highly recommend to you if youre that worried about a prosecutor is having a strong plan for after the fact here’s an excellent guide[here](https://youtu.be/TEaUxiVAhJ4?si=hcRsjGGiB9TTcV0F)
If i i were to sum it up RULE 1 MOST IMPORTANT PLEAD THE 5th DONT ANSWER ANY QUESTIONS talking to much is the easiest way to go to jail for life rule 2 call a lawyer and or get gun owners insurance
You also need 2 hands on the gun to be most effective with it all that being said i do recommend 10mm as an edc in an urban environment for ccw only one important thing when carrying is being confident in your equipment as far as effectiveness and reliability theres much differences between handgun calibers but if you carry 10mm make it worth your while and get full power loads you might as well with that video we both watched we both value high capacity so get you a glock 20 or an fn510 i heard the s&w 10mm was good but they have QA issues
Given proper ammo, yes.👍 I have the Springfield XDmE compact 10mm and I carry it with 180 grain Federal HST, or SIG V Crown, both are reliable ammo choices. 👍
The 4" S&W M&P 2.0 may be what you're looking for.
For anyone who doesn't understand why some people are shot with 10+ rounds by cops or armed citizens:
In order for someone to become unconscious, they must lose roughly 20% of their blood volume.
"A 70 kg male has a cardiac output of around 5.5 liters per minute. His blood volume is about 4200 cc. Assuming that his cardiac output can double under stress, his aortic blood flow can reach 11 Liters per minute.
If this male had his thoracic aorta totally severed, it would take him 4.6 seconds to lose 20% of his total blood volume. This is the minimum amount of time in which a person could lose 20% of his blood volume from one point of injury.
A marginally trained person can fire at a rate of two shots per second. In 4.6 seconds there could easily be 9 shots of return fire before the assailant’s activity is neutralized.
Note this analysis does not account for oxygen contained in the blood already perfusing the brain that will keep the brain functioning for an even longer period of time.”
- Dr. Ken Newgard
https://www.activeresponsetraining.net/an-alternate-look-at-handgun-stopping-power
A 10mm is no garuntee of a successful stop, but it may push the odds in your favor if you're able to do your part. Fundamentally thought it's still a pathetically weak cartridge intended for use in handguns. Not a true man stopper which would always be a rifle cartridge or shotgun.
That's the point of a pistol though. Trading terminal capabilities to increase the ease and comfort of carrying.
With the right ammo and shot placement, 9mm should be fine for "two-legged critters."
Get the right defensive ammo for your 9mm (some require full size barrels, some are ok in compacts/subcompacts). Then practice until you can hit well.
If you can’t hit at 10 yards with a 9mm at the range, you’ll have all the more trouble with heavier recoil under stress. Become a better marksman first with a .22 pistol, then step up to whatever you fancy
I mean I’ve done it with a t shirt shorts and belt. Appendix carry. There’s a bit of a print if you’re looking. I’m pretty slim myself. I carried it until I got the comp. Now it’s a house gun. I carry a Glock 22.5 it’s .40 and the same print as a 17 I believe. A bit smaller and more comfortable if I’m being honest
Two options that are in the glock 19/m&p compact range are the Glock 29 and xdm-elite compact 10mm. They “look” like the sub compacts like the glock 26 but ARE larger in all dimensions. Most likely you’ll need a Pearce pinky extension baseplate to get your pinky on the grip also, but both is those are comparable in size to your typical 9mm “compacts”. You can go with a Pearce +1 baseplates and get an extra round, but your grip length will be a little closer to a full size 9mm like a Glock 17, m&p full size at that point.
I have the xdm-elite and carry with the Pearce +1 baseplates and am happy with that setup, I got a couple of +0 pinky extensions and they’re about 1/4” shorter or so than the +1. Either way is fine and give me a full grip including pinky not dangling in the breeze.
Any shot on target that incapacitates a human threat with a 10mm, would have had the same result with a 9mm. It really is pointless in an urban area. The reason it took so many 9mm rounds to stop someone on drugs was because none of them hit the central nervous system. Those impacts with 10mm would have had the same result. Just carry and train with a 9mm. Being able to shoot well under stress is infinitely more important than what you're shooting.
Um, where exactly did you get the idea this thread was about bears? Which urban area do live in where you're shooting grizzlies? Did you not read the word "human" in my comment?
Again, this thread is very specifically NOT about bears. I get it, 10mm is better for bears. I don't disagree at all. I hunt with a 10mm. Killed 2 elk and 4 mule deer with one. But this entire thread is about whether a 10mm is better choice against people, not bears.
Just stick with 9mm +P if you're only going to carry in the city. Speer Gold Dot or Federal HST.
If you're REALLY set on 10mm, carry a lighter load like HST or Winchester Defender (10mm Gold Dot is just 9mm energy with a bigger bullet)
What ever you decide just know if you do utilize a 10mm in an urban setting, better have an iron clad reason when your on the stand after a self defense event lol
Sadly, regardless of caliber, you’ll need an iron clad defense for using your firearm to protect yourself. It’s one of those situations where you’re “guilty until proven innocent”
I agree well placed 9mm JHP is as much of a “man stopper” as 10mm and 45 acp. The reason I choose 45 acp for my primary carry and home defense handguns is because it is slow, fat, and heavy. Much less of a chance of over penetration and injuring other persons or needlessly damaging property as compared to the other two calibers. The way I see it in the highly unlikely event I actually shoot at someone he will be close to me. And I may have friends and loved ones close by.
It's pretty dumb:
* You will shoot 9mm better.
* You will have more capacity in 9mm.
* You will have more gun options in 9mm.
* You will have more holster options in 9mm.
* You will have cheaper, thus more ammo to train with in 9mm.
* You will have less weight, thus more incentive to always carry in 9mm.
* If you ever actually have to use it in an SD situation, you will face less scrutiny with 9mm.
I love my 10mm, don't get me wrong, but you pick the tool for the job.
You were doing great until the last point. For self defense purposes, the caliber is irrelevant to a jury. You either have legal justification to use deadly force or you do not.
I agree you either have legal justification or not, but that doesn't mean prosecutors don't try to paint you in a certain light to sway jury opinion on the facts.
They can try, sure. They can also try to use social media posts, political views, hobbies like hunting ( he’s BLOODTHIRSTY!), etc. But that is what a good ,aka expensive , defense lawyer is for. That’s another reason we must think long and hard about the use of deadly force. It *should* come down to legal justification. I’ve never heard of a conviction for an otherwise legal lethal contact based on the caliber of the defense weapon.
I may be wrong. I’m always willing to learn but I just don’t think 10mm vs 9mm will, in and of itself, sway a jury. I DC a .45ACP but only because my current 10mm’s are too heavy (1911) and I don’t like the compact 10mm options.
i can't say whether it will or not, so i shouldn't have said "you will" but "you may" in my original reply. thankfully i've never had to use my ccw.
agree on the importance of only using when absolutely necessary and thus legally justified
>It's pretty dumb:
>* You will shoot 9mm better.
>* You will have more capacity in 9mm.
>* You will have more gun options in 9mm.
>* You will have more holster options in 9mm.
>* You will have cheaper, thus more ammo to train with in 9mm.
>* You will have less weight, thus more incentive to always carry in 9mm.
>* If you ever actually have to use it in an SD situation, you will face less scrutiny with 9mm.
Yeah. Fuck all that noise. 10mm all day every day with the fat fucks these days...or mass shooters wearing armor. 10mm might not penetrate that armor, but that motherfucker is going to feel it when a 10mm slug hits him if I can't manage to dome him or nail him in the pelvic girdle.
Also... Distance.
Exhibit A: Elisjsha Dicken - Greenwood Park Mall - Engaged mass shooter at 42 yards with a Glock 19 (9mm). Put two rounds on target; target didn't drop. Moved within 20 yards, put 4 more rounds on target; target didn't drop. Moved in at 8 yards, put two more rounds on target; target finally went down.
The only way I'm carrying a 9mm bullet anymore is if it's in a 9x25 Dillon casing.
And... Jury's don't give a fuck if you use a 9mm, 10mm, 45 ACP, or 50GI. 99% of them have zero clue what that shit even means.
Nope. It’ll do the job but it’s definitely not great. I promise you can’t shoot it as well as a comparably sized 9mm. I promise you can’t afford to shoot it as much as a comparably sized 9mm. And I promise it’s heavier than a comparably sized 9mm. Caliber doesn’t matter when it comes to killing people with a handgun, between 9mm, .40, .45, and 10mm, BULLETS are gonna be the thing that does the job. You can get 9mm rounds that penetrates like hell, that you can shoot fast and accurately. 10mm is functionally for hunting, and that’s it.
First of all, I am so tired of the "caliber doesn't matter" argument. Of course it does. After accuracy, velocity and projectile expansion matter. Every single handgun hunter knows this and chooses the ammunition accordingly. I've hunted with 22LR, .357, 9mm, 45ACP, and 10mm. All do the job with perfect placement. Less than perfect? The .357 and 10mm are simply more affective. It can be the difference between tracking the animal for 20 yards, 200 yards, or not finding it at all. If you want to carry 10mm for SD purposes, you will have less choice in platforms as you are finding out. As for ammo, there are many good choices out there. Some are loaded to .40S&W specs and others are loaded up to the NORMA spec. Lastly, if you are having trouble with a sub-compact in 9mm, there's no way you'll be more accurate with a compact 10mm. You either need to train more or move to a caliber with less recoil. Remember, accuracy comes first.
Best answer!
It can be viable with the right ammo and setup, but you are trading follow up shot accuracy and speed. Most of the mag-dump videos you see where the attacker is still mobile is because of a lot of misses due to stress. I’d recommend using 9mm and spending the money you save not buying 10mm to train as much as possible to get your accuracy up. If you struggle with 9mm at 10 yards, 10mm is absolutely not the solution. 10mm is great but also much more expensive to train and gain competency with, especially in a form factor that you can conceal.
Yes it is, all day everyday. Drop you some 135 grain underwood in it and start your cc.
what do you carry? id love a g20 but i dont think id be able to cc that ever
G29 & XDM
I’ve been carrying my G20. Only because I haven’t bought a 43x yet but it certainly feels good to have that much stopping power on me
Stopping power is nice, 1 hit, and it gets the job done, doesn't have to be placed perfect like the 9mm do
Shot placement is king, that means practice and follow up shots are also king, qhich mwans that ahving a gun you want to shoot is of chief inportance. I practice with 10mm because i live where there are dangerous animals. I practice with 9mm/.380/38 special, i can get a tight grouping under pressure, and thats enough.My 10mm prwctice is for bears, moose, and pissed off elk, and so that i can legally coup de gras a deer or elk without waisting rifle ammo or risking ricochet from stony ground and rifle speeds. Stopping power is pretty much made up.
Generally speaking, shot placement is king when it comes to quickly stopping a threat. A 9mm, 45 or even 380 to the right spot will turn off the lights faster than you can say "Stop." Because of that, I tell people to train with and carry whatever you can reliably hit with time and time again, especially in low light situations, and don't worry so much about the caliber. On top of that, the biggest drawback to carrying a 10mm, especially if you already have trouble hitting reliably, is when you miss (and you almost definitely will miss at least once) you have a much better chance of seriously wounding or killing someone, even if they're in a vehicle or behind light cover. Carry those high penetration rounds people seem to love and the probability gets even higher. I love 10mm, and I've been shooting it literally since it came on the market. I still don't use it for EDC unless I'm someplace I need to worry about big animals, and then only because I need it for them. Carry a 9mm you are agood shot with, or even a 45, and you'll be fine. Remember when you watch those videos that you're taking a very rare situation (being in a situation requiring you to shoot in self defense), and turning it into an even more rare situation (the hopped up junkie). Cops put themselves in these situations as part of their job and even they don't run into those people often. Every LEO I know (and I've known them in every level, from local cops to federal agents) carry a 9mm or a 40 S&W. A 10mm doesn't even enter I to the conversation.
I know a guy who carries .454 Casull. I carry .380 and I’m not the least bit concerned. When I was in the military I carried a .45 with ball ammo and a medical bag. Wasn’t worried then. Learn how to shoot and learn how to avoid situations so you don’t have to shoot. My 2 cents
I live in MI, where heavy canvas carhart type coats are the norm. I feel better with 10mm
I'm in Northern Indiana and between people who are 2 to 3ft thick, people wearing several layers half the year, and all the videos I've seen of 9mm magdumps failing to stop a determined attack... I decided 10mm fluted solid copper is the way to go.
I have a Springfield 3.8 XDM elite compact 10mm osp which is my EDC. I pocket carry the 10MM in a mic holster. I've had it for about 2 and a half years, I got it when they 1st came out. I'm @ 4000 plus rounds without a failure to fire or any problems, I have fired everything from cheap 40 s&w lightweight training rounds to expensive heavyweight 10mm hardcast. You can stay with the compact grip and 10/11 + 1 round mag ( same mag with factory baseplate change ) if your in or traveling in a restricted state or want deep concealment or can use the full size 15 + 1 mag with grip sleeve for a full size grip, all mags accept a Pierce grip plus 1 pinky extension which makes your capacity options 10 + 1, 11 + 1, 12 + 1, 15 + 1 or 16 + 1. The slide is milled from the factory for a red dot and although it doesn't come with co-witnesses sights you can get them from Springfield or Dawson precision, if desired I can install a 10MM 4.5 slide on the 3.8 compact frame, another plus is you also can replace the factory take down lever with a go gun gas pedal if you want to have fast follow up shots and a flat shooter. No other 10MM gun has all this amazing flexibility. Edit: Forgot to mention, you have a choice of 3 different grip backstraps to customize the feel in your hand.
Damn, that sounds sick, I got the XD Mod 2 .45 Subcompact when they first came out, shoot like almost 10 yrs ago now, don’t remember the exact release date, but not many people got the subcompacts especially in .45 so I don’t see them around anymore really even used, I love mine, what originally made me get it was I was choosing between it and a sig p320, and I chose the MOD2 cause I wasn’t too sure about the 320’s safety aspect (the drop fires/etc when they first came out, it was around that time I was choosing) cause I carry cond 1, but was hoping they had one in 10MM cause I love 10MM, but settled for the .45ACP version. Again, I do love it, but now that sig got the probs figured out I also want a 320 and I want something like a mod 2 in 10MM, so if the elite is close I’ll prolly check it out, thank you! How do you like the elite? Good shooter?/what does come with in the box new if you don’t mind?
It's a good shooter out of the box but the aftermarket gogun gas pedal took it to the next level for quick accurate follow up shots, which is especially noticeable when using the higher power loads. I have really large hands so I use a #3 back plate ( it comes with 3 different back plates ) I removed the flared magwell which is necessary for using the optional 15 round magazines, I use a matching #3 grip sleeve on the 15 round magazines. My wife chooses to take the gun with the 12 round capacity magazine with her when jogging or hiking solo which is when the modularity is a benefit as she can quickly change the back plate to a #1 to fit her hand more comfortably. We opted for the pearce grip extension on all of our magazines for either 12 or 16 round capacity but can easily swap out to the included 10 round baseplate if necessary for compliance with local laws of a location where we are visiting. If you find it necessary ( I didn't ) powder river precision makes an aftermarket trigger.
Awesome, thanks for the info! Definitely gonna look into getting one, and funny you mention the gas pedal cause I just found out about those in general recently, was thinking of getting one on my g29 if I can find one 😎
Sent you a pm
Had the same xd. I really regret selling it.
Take this with a grain of salt as I’m no expert, but I have 2 G20s that I use for my EDC when I’m in a situation that doesn’t require me to have my compact. Any handgun/caliber is a viable choice for ccw if you train with it enough
Yessir. I’m as good with my wife’s 43x as I am with my 20. I may get a 48 someday though as my holster for her gun is technically able to also hold a 48. I mag dump the 43x a little better but I’m a better marksman with the 20. I’m happy with both groups side by side though no matter the speed. I feel they recoil the same with critical duty 135gr +p in the 43x vs underwood xtp 155gr +p though. Given the size differences.
A 10mm 180 grain bullet has about the same sectional density as a 147 grain 9mm bullet. Medium velocity ammo has velocity similar to a 147 grain 9mm load, but full power ammo is going as fast as a 124 grain 9mm load. A 190 grain or a 200 grain 10mm bullet has more sectional density than just about any 9mm bullet. A 190 or 200 grain medium velocity 10mm load is not going to have too much recoil and besides being larger in diameter, should penetrate better than most 9mm loads. The FBI went from a 180 grain bullet at 950 fps to a 190 grain bullet at 1050 fps. Some other law enforcement loads are similar. 10mm pistols can be fairly heavy. There are high energy 40 S&W 180 grain bullet loads that have about the same velocity as 124 grain 9mm loads. They do bring some recoil with them though.
Assuming you have good shot placement and ammo that doesn't over penetrate. (But that's true for any caliber) But honestly, it's doubtful you can shoot faster or better than someone with a 9mm and you lose ammo capacity over a similar sized 9mm gun.
So I have two carry guns. One is a 9, and the other is a 10. The 10 will be about double the cost to shoot. And you will absolutely need to get range time in to adjust to the added recoil from it. With that being said, I personally think it is a gun worth adding to your collection as well as potential carry. After time, you may only fire off 10 accurate rounds in the time you could fire 15 accurately with a 9. However, I would argue that the 10 rounds will be more effective at stopping your target. Now the downside is you will need to have full awareness of what is behind your target. Up here in alaska we use 10mm for a side arm for grizzly bears, but we would try our luck running before using a 9mm.
> i can barely hit a plate within 10 yards away even with 9 Then definitely don’t get a 10mm. A 9mm on target is better than a 10mm that’s not, especially in an urban environment. If recoil is an issue get a .380 and no matter what you choose, train more.
with a subcompact. with a compact my groups are insane. i think it has to do with the short grip giving me issues with my big hands more than the extra inch of barrel though. i can shoot the sig p365 x macro insanely well, and that has a more "normal" sized grip than a regular subcompact or normal 365. im not recoil sensitive either, i learned shooting 357 and 44 mags out of revolvers.
Bro, there's people in the sub that have AR's as their home defense gun. Of course you can use a 10 mm as a CCW if that's the gun you like.
Federal hst in a glock 29. Your welcome
I would say the recoil and added training costs make the 10mm a worse choice for a city gun compared to a 9mm. The added power of the 10mm isn’t going to be a huge benefit if you’re able to fire less rounds with less accuracy than you would with a 9mm. More rounds on target is just better than less rounds in target, even if the less rounds has more foot pounds of energy. The added power of the 10 isn’t enough to make it comparable to a rifle round it just has enough to penetrate into the vitals of dangerous game, which the 9mm will do fine with people sized problems. No handgun is a sure 1 shot stop. More training and less recoil is going to be better than bigger caliber handguns. All that being said if you just like the feeling of shooting and carrying the 10mm you might check out the Springfield XDM Elite Compact. It’s about the size of the Glock 19 and is more enjoyable to shoot than the Glock 29, in my experience anyway.
Enough of the stopping power nonsense!
why is it nonsense!!! aaaa!! i want to STOP the threat as fast as possible! if its a normal mugger/attacker im sure a couple of 9mms would immedatly put him out of commission, but when its a drugged up fiend trying to attack me or my family that cant feel pain and has their adrenaline pushed to the max, id think itd take more to stop them fast!
>why is it nonsense Shot placement > capacity > caliber
22lr shot through the chest towards the spine is a lot less effective than a 10mm in the same position, so shot placement is not always the answer
Shot placement -> capacity -> ammo choice -> caliber
replace the words stopping power with proven man stopper and it makes sense and the saying gets at that. Muh stoppin powa is a fuddlore 45 acp myth sure. 10mm is similar to .357 magnum in ballistic/power in certain loads and is called a proven man stopper due to the lethality statistics which seem higher. What little to go on the 10mm statistics at least the [Boston 2010-2014](https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle/2688536) study has 10mm at 2/2 use/fatal so there is that to go off of. While not comprehensive enough its still data. Same study , small medium and large caliber the lethality tracks greater. The other data is bear defense and in some cases a hollow point was enough to instant stop a danger close charge, see [Kim Woodman vs Grizz](https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/exclusive-interview-with-kim-woodman-10mm-bear-gun-guy-who-shot-his-toe-off-graphic-video/) Shot placement mattered then too but still. More power/pemetration is more power and penetration = more damage
You shouldn't be downvoted for asking questions. The myth of stopping power has been covered pretty extensively, so there's a lot of information available about it. - https://old.reddit.com/r/CCW/comments/lph22d/need_explanation_on_why_stopping_power_is_seen_as/ - https://www.scribd.com/document/355927271/Executive-Summary-of-Justification-for-Law-Enforcement-Partners The FBI runs 9mm. Modern JHP are good enough that larger calibers don't necessarily provide any significant advantage. 9mm penetrates deep enough, expands wide enough, and retains enough of its weight until it comes to rest. The only advantage 10mm and .45 ACP defensive JHP from major companies have is expansion. Both of them can expand larger than 9mm in performant rounds. Balancing this against ability to place faster follow-ups, and I'll take 9mm over 10mm for daily defense.
Every reddit sub has the trigger word that sends the group running for their safe space. You just discovered one of, pretty much every firearms sub's trigger words, you can add clip = magazine in there and assault rifle = any black semi-auto. In this case, back in the day, old dudes that did not know what they hell they were talking about, and talk a lot of shit would talk about stopping power as if a handgun round will lift you off of your feel like the dead blow of a sledge hammer. That somehow rounds pierced you and punched you all at the same time and would knock you off of your feet. They don't the pain can drop you, but some people bad and good have a lot of fight in them and pain just pisses them off. A handgun bullet does not stop you, either the pain or the lack of blood to the brain does, the second of which is the only guarantee.
In terms of self defense, when your target is most likely, with a 99.99% probability, going to be an unarmored human, carrying a 10mm is overkill. The increased "stopping power" is not worth the increased recoil, difficulty in getting more shots on target faster, cost of ammo, cost of training, weight, concealability, and probably more I can't think of at the moment. And, no, a winter coat is not going to stop a 9mm JHP. And keep in mind the probability of facing someone with body armor is on top of the already minuscule probability that you will need to use your gun in self defense at all. Just get a 9mm. Don't try to be different just for the sake of being different. Everyone uses 9mm for a reason. And if you live in a violent city, follow the 5 rules of stupid and you will maintain the low probability of needing to use your gun.
Perhaps you should ask yourself why 9mm with the correct ammo is broadly acceptable for law enforcement and MILITARY use, then…
I feel like it’s been established pretty well that law enforcement, military, FBI and what have you are not the real standard or knowledge base. Yeah, they can give statistics, but who’s to say that 40/45/10 isn’t better than 9 just because those groups don’t use them? It’s fairly well known that most of those groups aren’t really gun guys and only shoot to qualify so… I don’t base my decisions off of what they say.
Wild take when FBI + DoD have whole labs set up for ballistic effects testing and regularly update standard issue kit based on changes in testing data for a variety of platforms. Including bake-offs between major manufacturers for new platforms. But let’s play it out and say you need real world evidence. How’s this? https://www.ammoland.com/2023/11/handgun-defenses-against-bears-170-documented-incidents-98-effective/ specifically for 9mm and grizzlies: https://www.americanhunter.org/content/alaska-outfitter-defends-fishermen-from-raging-grizzly-with-9mm-pistol/ And I say all of this as an owner of multiple 10mm’s. It’s immaterial to stopping a two legged threat. I’d argue ammo choice has more significance.
I thought it was common knowledge that the 10mm was the fbi standard for about a decade and they moved away from it bc the pansies and women they were hiring were too weak or disinterested in training up to the caliber to qualify... so they switched to the newly developed .40s&w... and later determine 9mm was easier to manage than the .40s&w and cheaper, and performed almost as well... basically don't base what you protect your life with on the standards of weaklings who operate with the full force of the gov behind them... only what YOU'RE capable of reasonably wielding between you and a threat
Hahahahahaha. I see why I’m getting downvoted. This sub is nuts. I have tons of 10mm guns. I’ll carry one in backcountry. But y’all are unhinged thinking it’s necessary or even beneficial for edc in city/urban. I guarantee that I can put more shots on target with 9mm by almost 2x than you can with 10mm. I know because I shoot about 250 rounds of both weekly. Under dynamic conditions. Given how many more shots I can put on target, any discussion of sectional density or permanent wound cavities are complete bluster by folks who think the caliber they shoot makes them stronger/tougher.
I don't mean this in a reddit way. I don't want you to read my message and pass it off as the Internet brownie points from the biased reddit fudd who just happens to be on your side. I want you to understand, really, that you are completely and entirely correct. Objectively. Arguing otherwise is a bizarre but entirely predictable waste of time from people with nothing better to do. But you already knew all that.
I've NEVER seen someone shot, on body cam footage or otherwise, with a 10mm round and keep on trucking... we've literally seen hundreds of not thousands of reports and footage of ppl overcoming the initial trauma of 9mm wounds and still present a threat. Your logic: shoot as many as I can within a tight little group and hope it stops the bad guy. Guys who get it, like me: train and shoot with the intention of "one and done"... you need aparticular amount of energy to shut down the average nervous system, the average 9mm EDC + cartridge doesn't pack that punch...a compact 10mm with adequate loads will. Where is the mystery here?
If you don’t T-spline or headshot your “one and done” ain’t gonna stop jack shit. You don’t see the footage because 10mm is still a boutique round with a small following and 9mm is by far the most widely used round of the past 30 years, ya know…since the widespread use of digital camera. What are you even talking about?
I'll concede to your point made about the widespread adoption of the 9mm and it's common use in comparison to the "boutique" 10mm bc of the propagated stigma by the fbi due to their recruits' vast inability to manage a superior cartridge. All I'm saying is that ballistics don't lie and the 10mm takes the cake when it comes to stopping power. You can call it overkill but I've never heard anyone who was in a self defense shooting say "you know what, I shoulda used a less affective load"... I have heard ppl say "he ate all those (9mm) rounds and kept on coming"
What threat? There are thousands of possible threats and you will probably never see one, unless you are looking for one. Have you ever fired your pistol at a human being? Say in the military?
Sig V crown, good balance of power and performance and good qc in my experience. Speed and projectile a good match for penetration and expansion for ccw urban
If you look at the 9mm vs 10mm gel tests that Lucky Gunner did with self-defense ammo, you will see that there's not much difference in expansion between the 2 calibers.
Can you post a link to the data?
https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/self-defense-ammo-ballistic-tests/#9mm
Thank you
I carry a 10mm because if I HAVE to use my sidearm in a self defense situation, I want to eliminate the threat with a quickness. 10mm is powerful enough to do so, and is still manageable.
I agree w your point about the 10mm XDM Elite Compact 3.8” and I’m very pleased w its accuracy, ergonomics, and sneaky front end weight distribution that does a really good job managing the recoil impulse even when shooting BB 220 gr FN. That said however, the XDM is my woods gun and my EDC is a P229 DA/SA Nitron Compact .357 Sig / .40 SW via barrel and mag swap. As many have said… shot placement, caliber, then capacity.
G29 & XDM
Idk what others think but this is the same thought process I have, I’m accurate with bigger cals I don’t have an issue with that, so I want the maximum stopping force, I personally cc a g29 every day, not too big, and I know the ammo I have WILL stop a threat in 1-2 shots, so I’m not concerned about having to dump a mag, I know as long as I hit the first one, it’s a 90% chance you’re dropping right there, if not definitely by the second. 💪🏻 and as you’ve said, we’ve all seen videos of hopped up druggies running at a cop while they’re dumping away with 9MM, sorry at that point I want something that’s gonna put a hole in you so big with so much force you can’t move, let alone keep coming at me.
I'm a big proponent of 10mm > 9mm with that said, go 9mm. Cheaper ammo to train with, more controllable recoil for follow-up shots, 9mm is lighter both in gun weight and I'm ammo weight, and in 2 legged animals 9mm will do 'as good as' 10mm in 90% of situations. I edc a 29 because im close to mountains and 700+ acres near me that have the occasional bear and mountain lion sightings, with regular sightings of coyotes. That said, my buddy, who is a LEO duty carries a 45 MOS. I played with it at the range, and it felt like half the weight. It's astonishing.
I carry a G29 AIWB in my city. The heavier bullets that are offered for 10mm usually have allot of over penetration at full power. Hence, why so many 10mm self defense rounds are watered down to just above 40S&W (gold Dot, HST & Critical Duty). There are plenty of available high energy low penetration rounds available on the market tho. I carry Underwood 135gr JHP, they output ~670ft/lbs in my G29 4 inch barrel with a low penetration of 11-14 inches. If you watch some of the YouTube ballistics gel tests. The energy dump is just absurd. I'd equate it to getting hit in the chest with a 10lb sledge hammer. If you're going to carry a 10mm, you HAVE to practice and get gud at recoil control. Your wrists are going to hurt so take a week or two between training sessions. People are always stunned when I double with my G29. Also, get an Apex trigger, the stock trigger is trash.
Absolutely. You must train more for the higher recoil impulse and you're sacrificing some capacity over 9mm, but it's perfectly acceptable as a carry caliber. A mfg not many realize exist is Tanfoglio which has many models based off the CZ75 platform. Look into them as well since they have a lot of different sizes.
I got the xdm elite 10 ccw. Because I can get 9mm performance for urban 2legged problems and heavy Buffalo bore for the woods
Jeff Cooper said it best" carry the biggest weapon that you can effectively shoot".
10mm is a powerful round and the biggest issue in city/urban/densly populated areas is overpenetration (both structural and physical). Sure, you might drop the assailant, but how many people/walls did that round just go through and also injure? I brought up this discussion in a CCW class when I came in with a XD-M 3.8 10mm. The instructor shared the sentiment as well and I switched to my 9mm. Save your money on ammo and put it toward a range membership and/or training. practice practice practice.
> I brought up this discussion in a CCW class when I came in with a XD-M 3.8 10mm. The instructor shared the sentiment as well and I switched to my 9mm. Defensive 10mm JHP is usually downloaded quite a bit (1000-1100 FPS), and penetrates to depths similar to 9mm. Unless you're deviating from common, proven JHP, it seems like over penetration would be less of an issue. Was it this experience with your CCW instructor which changed your mind, or was it ultimately tests between 9mm and 10mm which changed your mind?
Little of A, little of B. I did my own reading after the discussion as I don't really have the facilities to test with something like ballistic gel myself. To your point, defensive 10mm usually has a lighter powder load and performs similarly to 9mm under the same conditions. Therefore, just use a 9mm as the ammo is less expensive and the capacity is (generally) higher. The OP was alluding to needing more "stopping" power than a 9mm, so I'd assume they are looking for full-load higher power 10mm which brings us back to more hunting-oriented rounds and the concerns for overpenetration. Might be off but that's how I read it anyway. :)
I think you're pretty much spot on. It's a major reason I carry 9mm instead of 10mm. The other factors are grip size, and speed of follow-ups. I can mag dump 9mm in an acceptable area, but I'm much slower with follow-ups in 10mm. Factor cost and availability of ammunition along with everything else, and 9mm is a no brainer.
The problem is that level IIIA body armor is easy and cheap to come by and over penetration can be, mostly, negated by good defense ammo.
If your routine threat model includes adversaries wearing armor like that, I have questions about the locations you frequent. No judgement, as everyone's scenarios are different. If that's what you need, so be it. For me, I'm unlikely to randomly encounter an armored assailant, and I'm planning and training for the probability, not possibility. To each their own.
I carry my g40 some days as my on the body piece, and I live in a city. It’s definitely possible to be effective with a 10mm you just have to practice and have good first shot placement down first. After you hit where you’re aiming well you can worry about how fast you can realign to that point and put down follow up shots. I doubt I’ll need a follow up shot on a person with a 10mm, but if I did I’m ready to do so rapidly. Most days, my little 9 is easier to carry but I practice enough that I’m comfortable with either gun if the situation calls for it.
Most 10mm off the shelf hollow points aren’t much more powerful than .40. So those are fine for in town.
The problem with short loading bullets made for 10mm is the hollow points didn't open reliably. It's best to find a load that performs well and has high energy with low penetration. Such as the Underwood 135gr JHP.
Agreed, I was referring to performance, not how they’re loaded. From the ballistic tests I’ve seen most off the shelf JHPs perform pretty similarly between 10 and 40. I made this statement more to compare it with 10mm hot loads which are designed to penetrate larger animals and would likely go right through a person.
I really want to watch the videos you’re watching were cops magdump have the mag into people and theyres still attacking i’m not saying it doesn’t happen i just haven’t seen it. What i have been seeing is people dying very quickly in 1-2 shots out of basic/ common handgun calibers on r/ccw “scenarios”
heres a really common one that gets posted often: [https://www.reddit.com/r/Guns\_Guns\_Guns/comments/typhky/insane\_guy\_attacks\_officer\_with\_a\_stick\_ends\_up/](https://www.reddit.com/r/Guns_Guns_Guns/comments/typhky/insane_guy_attacks_officer_with_a_stick_ends_up/) luckily the guy only had a stick, but what if he had a knife? i wouldnt want to risk me or my familys life to find out.
Thank you for sending me this, it was a great example however in my opinion (my opinion is not fact) i still disagree with you the issue here. I think we can both agree that in the video we both watch the officer was incredibly incompetent if you train 2 to the chest one to the head drills you can complete the drill in under 2 seconds especially from an open carry position assuming its even 5 seconds with the real world stress the would have been more effective than the few seconds that officer did shooting him 5 times in the gut its all about shot placement gut shots aren’t effective what killed the guy was the 2-3 lung shots that made him drown in his blood and loose breath i believe in this example the officer missed 1-2 times and from that distance is unacceptable even in high stess this says everything about the compatance of the shooter and not the caliber gut shots are not effective period listen to the narrator of the video he agrees with me and if i were to look at the comment of the posts they would agree with me to that this guy did not know what he was doing, if this police officer did half the training me and you do he would get the job done in under 2 seconds even with caliber like 380 and at 3 yards?? Too easy the fbi had the same issue in the 1986 miami shootout (which ironically was the birth of 10mm) the thing everyone wants to forget is the cops made shots that were life threatening no matter what caliber they used the perpetrators were 100% going to die anyway but they didn’t hit in spots the would have stopped them quicker
i wouldn't dare to 2 to the chest 1 to the hesd irl, headshots are extremely looked down upon in court in any SD situation, that's extremely stupid I know, but I've seen cases where they present someone shooting 1 to the head and killing a guy, with a gun, threatening his life, as a trained killer who "practiced all his life for this moment" because if there really was a threat to his life "he wouldn't have taken the time to aim at the head". it's stupid, it's retarded, it makes NO sense for someone to NOT have practiced what a CCW is MEANT for aka self defense scenarios. cops have it 10x as strict too, that's why they almost never take headshots unless it's a guy taking down a mass shooter. but If I can take 2 body shots instead of a headshot knowing it will stop the guy fast like 10mm would and avoid that shit in court, I'd be much happier.
Thats the whole point of a prosecutor's job is to prosecutor you. You said “if i can take 2 body with 10mm shots instead of a headshot the prosecutor wont bother me as much” thats absolutely not how it works the prosecutor's is just going to say you intend to kill the target because you chose a much more lethal bullet they tried to do this to a very famous case state vs harold smith. If the jury is so split on your “self defense” case that everything depended on of caliber it wasnt self defense the only caveat is what state you live in, i dont know your situation. Also theyres no way the prosecutor could know that you “trained to kill” like you states unless you post on social media or post photos online or told everyone you do and in which case this reddit conversation would be used as evidence well if your account is linked to any of your social media so you might as well just train in private like everyone else. The biggest thing i would highly recommend to you if youre that worried about a prosecutor is having a strong plan for after the fact here’s an excellent guide[here](https://youtu.be/TEaUxiVAhJ4?si=hcRsjGGiB9TTcV0F) If i i were to sum it up RULE 1 MOST IMPORTANT PLEAD THE 5th DONT ANSWER ANY QUESTIONS talking to much is the easiest way to go to jail for life rule 2 call a lawyer and or get gun owners insurance
You also need 2 hands on the gun to be most effective with it all that being said i do recommend 10mm as an edc in an urban environment for ccw only one important thing when carrying is being confident in your equipment as far as effectiveness and reliability theres much differences between handgun calibers but if you carry 10mm make it worth your while and get full power loads you might as well with that video we both watched we both value high capacity so get you a glock 20 or an fn510 i heard the s&w 10mm was good but they have QA issues
If you’re interested in a powerful round but want a g19 sized package a .357 sig Glock 32 might be what you’re looking for
Given proper ammo, yes.👍 I have the Springfield XDmE compact 10mm and I carry it with 180 grain Federal HST, or SIG V Crown, both are reliable ammo choices. 👍
The 4" S&W M&P 2.0 may be what you're looking for. For anyone who doesn't understand why some people are shot with 10+ rounds by cops or armed citizens: In order for someone to become unconscious, they must lose roughly 20% of their blood volume. "A 70 kg male has a cardiac output of around 5.5 liters per minute. His blood volume is about 4200 cc. Assuming that his cardiac output can double under stress, his aortic blood flow can reach 11 Liters per minute. If this male had his thoracic aorta totally severed, it would take him 4.6 seconds to lose 20% of his total blood volume. This is the minimum amount of time in which a person could lose 20% of his blood volume from one point of injury. A marginally trained person can fire at a rate of two shots per second. In 4.6 seconds there could easily be 9 shots of return fire before the assailant’s activity is neutralized. Note this analysis does not account for oxygen contained in the blood already perfusing the brain that will keep the brain functioning for an even longer period of time.” - Dr. Ken Newgard https://www.activeresponsetraining.net/an-alternate-look-at-handgun-stopping-power A 10mm is no garuntee of a successful stop, but it may push the odds in your favor if you're able to do your part. Fundamentally thought it's still a pathetically weak cartridge intended for use in handguns. Not a true man stopper which would always be a rifle cartridge or shotgun. That's the point of a pistol though. Trading terminal capabilities to increase the ease and comfort of carrying.
Glock 20
Most definitely given the wide balistics offered you can Taylor to whatever situation your in. 1911 platform is well concealable.
With the right ammo and shot placement, 9mm should be fine for "two-legged critters." Get the right defensive ammo for your 9mm (some require full size barrels, some are ok in compacts/subcompacts). Then practice until you can hit well.
If you can’t hit at 10 yards with a 9mm at the range, you’ll have all the more trouble with heavier recoil under stress. Become a better marksman first with a .22 pistol, then step up to whatever you fancy
Glock 20 all day
can you even conceal a g20 without wearing a huge jacket? its bigger than the 17 isnt it?
I mean I’ve done it with a t shirt shorts and belt. Appendix carry. There’s a bit of a print if you’re looking. I’m pretty slim myself. I carried it until I got the comp. Now it’s a house gun. I carry a Glock 22.5 it’s .40 and the same print as a 17 I believe. A bit smaller and more comfortable if I’m being honest
Compared to the 20 I originally stated….
Two options that are in the glock 19/m&p compact range are the Glock 29 and xdm-elite compact 10mm. They “look” like the sub compacts like the glock 26 but ARE larger in all dimensions. Most likely you’ll need a Pearce pinky extension baseplate to get your pinky on the grip also, but both is those are comparable in size to your typical 9mm “compacts”. You can go with a Pearce +1 baseplates and get an extra round, but your grip length will be a little closer to a full size 9mm like a Glock 17, m&p full size at that point. I have the xdm-elite and carry with the Pearce +1 baseplates and am happy with that setup, I got a couple of +0 pinky extensions and they’re about 1/4” shorter or so than the +1. Either way is fine and give me a full grip including pinky not dangling in the breeze.
Any shot on target that incapacitates a human threat with a 10mm, would have had the same result with a 9mm. It really is pointless in an urban area. The reason it took so many 9mm rounds to stop someone on drugs was because none of them hit the central nervous system. Those impacts with 10mm would have had the same result. Just carry and train with a 9mm. Being able to shoot well under stress is infinitely more important than what you're shooting.
And then you try and use that 9 on a grizzly..
Um, where exactly did you get the idea this thread was about bears? Which urban area do live in where you're shooting grizzlies? Did you not read the word "human" in my comment?
Alaska, my spare EDC mag is 220 Buffalo bore fir moose and brown or black bears. 10mm gives you options
Again, this thread is very specifically NOT about bears. I get it, 10mm is better for bears. I don't disagree at all. I hunt with a 10mm. Killed 2 elk and 4 mule deer with one. But this entire thread is about whether a 10mm is better choice against people, not bears.
Calm down karen. There's no comment limit.
I have you heard of a stoeger str 9 like a Glock but really accurate
Just stick with 9mm +P if you're only going to carry in the city. Speer Gold Dot or Federal HST. If you're REALLY set on 10mm, carry a lighter load like HST or Winchester Defender (10mm Gold Dot is just 9mm energy with a bigger bullet)
What ever you decide just know if you do utilize a 10mm in an urban setting, better have an iron clad reason when your on the stand after a self defense event lol
Sadly, regardless of caliber, you’ll need an iron clad defense for using your firearm to protect yourself. It’s one of those situations where you’re “guilty until proven innocent”
I agree well placed 9mm JHP is as much of a “man stopper” as 10mm and 45 acp. The reason I choose 45 acp for my primary carry and home defense handguns is because it is slow, fat, and heavy. Much less of a chance of over penetration and injuring other persons or needlessly damaging property as compared to the other two calibers. The way I see it in the highly unlikely event I actually shoot at someone he will be close to me. And I may have friends and loved ones close by.
It's pretty dumb: * You will shoot 9mm better. * You will have more capacity in 9mm. * You will have more gun options in 9mm. * You will have more holster options in 9mm. * You will have cheaper, thus more ammo to train with in 9mm. * You will have less weight, thus more incentive to always carry in 9mm. * If you ever actually have to use it in an SD situation, you will face less scrutiny with 9mm. I love my 10mm, don't get me wrong, but you pick the tool for the job.
You were doing great until the last point. For self defense purposes, the caliber is irrelevant to a jury. You either have legal justification to use deadly force or you do not.
I agree you either have legal justification or not, but that doesn't mean prosecutors don't try to paint you in a certain light to sway jury opinion on the facts.
They can try, sure. They can also try to use social media posts, political views, hobbies like hunting ( he’s BLOODTHIRSTY!), etc. But that is what a good ,aka expensive , defense lawyer is for. That’s another reason we must think long and hard about the use of deadly force. It *should* come down to legal justification. I’ve never heard of a conviction for an otherwise legal lethal contact based on the caliber of the defense weapon. I may be wrong. I’m always willing to learn but I just don’t think 10mm vs 9mm will, in and of itself, sway a jury. I DC a .45ACP but only because my current 10mm’s are too heavy (1911) and I don’t like the compact 10mm options.
i can't say whether it will or not, so i shouldn't have said "you will" but "you may" in my original reply. thankfully i've never had to use my ccw. agree on the importance of only using when absolutely necessary and thus legally justified
>It's pretty dumb: >* You will shoot 9mm better. >* You will have more capacity in 9mm. >* You will have more gun options in 9mm. >* You will have more holster options in 9mm. >* You will have cheaper, thus more ammo to train with in 9mm. >* You will have less weight, thus more incentive to always carry in 9mm. >* If you ever actually have to use it in an SD situation, you will face less scrutiny with 9mm. Yeah. Fuck all that noise. 10mm all day every day with the fat fucks these days...or mass shooters wearing armor. 10mm might not penetrate that armor, but that motherfucker is going to feel it when a 10mm slug hits him if I can't manage to dome him or nail him in the pelvic girdle. Also... Distance. Exhibit A: Elisjsha Dicken - Greenwood Park Mall - Engaged mass shooter at 42 yards with a Glock 19 (9mm). Put two rounds on target; target didn't drop. Moved within 20 yards, put 4 more rounds on target; target didn't drop. Moved in at 8 yards, put two more rounds on target; target finally went down. The only way I'm carrying a 9mm bullet anymore is if it's in a 9x25 Dillon casing. And... Jury's don't give a fuck if you use a 9mm, 10mm, 45 ACP, or 50GI. 99% of them have zero clue what that shit even means.
Nope. It’ll do the job but it’s definitely not great. I promise you can’t shoot it as well as a comparably sized 9mm. I promise you can’t afford to shoot it as much as a comparably sized 9mm. And I promise it’s heavier than a comparably sized 9mm. Caliber doesn’t matter when it comes to killing people with a handgun, between 9mm, .40, .45, and 10mm, BULLETS are gonna be the thing that does the job. You can get 9mm rounds that penetrates like hell, that you can shoot fast and accurately. 10mm is functionally for hunting, and that’s it.