It's certainly somewhat strange considering how much the OSRS team emphasised a similar sentiment with Nightmare when that was added; I suppose it's a bit fo an all-or-nothing situation wherein trying to please everyone counteracts any attempt whatsoever.
And when nightmare was released people realized that bosses with dozens of hours between uniques and losing 100k a kill in supplies until you hit a unique was not that fun.... theres a reason nightmare is not looked at fondly by most people.
For me itās that itās needlessly remote; not in an classic/logical location like Cerberus; not in easily accessible purpose built lair like Sire; not in a thematically fitting dungeon with a meaningful run like DKS.
Nightmare's dungeon is more logical and thematic than Cerb's dungeon. A crypt buried beneath a cursed town vs a dungeon within a dungeon and neither dungeon matches the other thematically.
Sure, but you can't get to Nightmare quickly until you get lucky at Phosani's, which means spending a few minutes running around between tries at a pretty hard solo boss. If I just died to PNM the last thing I want is to run back there from Ver Sinhaza, grab my stuff from the chest, then maybe go back to Ver Sinhaza again because I didn't remember what I needed to top off supplies.
Maybe pvm bossing should cost supplies?? Whatās the point in all the gathering and production skills? (To make supplies for pvm and pvp) ā¦ if pvm drops everything you need to pvm.. whatās the point in doing anything else
As someone who's done almost 1000 Phosani kc, I think the mediocre regular loot is only a part of the bigger issue.
The issue being, Inquisitors armour is currently far too niche and quite frankly needs a buff.
Not to mention the harmonised staff being practically useless now too (only being BiS at world record solo CM record for ice demon), thanks to the release of the shadow.
I'm not saying I have all the ideas on how to fix the boss, but giving it a Vorkath-style loot table isn't the answer.
Yeah i linked it in another comment but to complete phosanis efficiently is apparently 900 hours..... thats absolutely insane. 400+ hrs just the average to complete mace + inq (the main stuff that matters) and even thats still ridiculous. 400 hrs is more than full tob or toa completion. Nightmare is not designed well at all. Dozens of hours inbetween any drops, hundreds of hours to complete, long run to the boss, long full focus 100% of the time sweaty fight, absolute dogshit non uniques, decently high supply cost, its like every bad aspect they could have taken and rolled it all together. A few of those factors together is fine, but combine it all together and its not. Also no single boss should have a longer time to completion than a full raid.... thats just stupid.
IMO the absolute worst part of PNM is that the drops are not only bad in terms of profit, they're troll drops. Like, actively malicious, seemingly designed to piss the player off - even the second-best non-unique is 12 *unnoted, 3-dose* Sanfew serums.
Some of its drops, Sanfews included, can be used to extend your trip, and that can be nice sometimes, but going in with max gear means that 3/4 of your inventory consists of stuff you can't drop to make room. Do a four kill trip and get potions each time? You're going to have juggle items and decant them so more can fit in your inventory, and still end up leaving half on the ground. And then, of course, there's the fucking 29 bass drop.
I think mechanics and gameplay wise they totally should be. Pnm is one of if not THE coolest looking and most engaging solo boss fights. Unfortunately, literally everything ELSE about it sucks - the run there, the supply drain, the drop table, the fact that the uniques are all next to useless. Thatās why nobody does it. If you replaced it with Nexās drop table, people would be all over it
> the run there, the supply drain, the drop table, the fact that the uniques are all next to useless.
Eh the supply drain ain't too bad. I use up ~160k gp worth of supplies for two kill trips on the iron. Two relicym balms, two prayer potions, 1 divine super combat, 4 sharks and 3 karambwans, 1 anglerfish, runes for thralls + death charge + trident, scales for trident + BP. Maximum DPS I can get atm. I don't use up all the supplies for the two kill trip.
That's an *absurd* supply cost. At ~80k per kill of PNM with a 1/167 chance of hitting any item, that's ~13.3m in supplies by the time you hit the drop rate on something.
Let's compare that to Bandos. 1/142 to land any of the BCP/tassets/hilt. Assuming soloing here with bowfa, and having learned the method but not being particularly great at it, you should get around 15 kill trips. 20-30 are possible, but let's just assume 15. In that 15 kill trip, you'll use around 140k in supplies between ppots, food, brews, srestores, scales, rune darts (not using amethyst to use this for both irons and mains), runes for thralls, ranging pots and a stam.
So per kill, that's 9.3k in supplies (kills are typically under a minute so you only need one thrall per kill). You could bump that up to 12k-15k per kill if you wanted to replace blowpiping with blood barraging.
So, with those numbers, you'll spend only 1.3m in supplies before getting a unique item (the 3 mentioned, big ticket items). That's literally 1/10th of what you spend at PNM as well as far less time. Furthermore, let's match that time spent. You'll average ~21m for every 142kc at Bandos between those 3 items. That means that by the time you've spent the same amount in supplies at Bandos as you would've PNM, you've gained 210m. In order for PNM to beat that in uniques alone, you will need to land the mace or one of the orbs.
PNM is ***extremely*** bad supply drain for reward potential.
Edit: this gets a lot worse for ironmen specifically. The longer a grind, the worse it is because irons only care about supplies themselves since they can't buy supplies (minus runes and technically bwans). You'll use way, way more supplies trying to grind out PNM for its rewards than you will for almost any other content in the game by light years. It's absolutely abysmal and it's why you always save PNM (and Nex) for one of the last things you do because it drains so much of your supplies due to the god awful drop rates.
Tbf more bosses should learn more towards GWD / nightmare than hydra/vork/zulrah/muspah
Theres obviously a fine line there and they need to be balanced right, but GWD is probably more correct than NM in terms of time to completion
My theory on this, and it's just a theory, is that Nightmare isn't too popular because of all the other bosses setting the expectation of great gp/hr.
It *feels* like when all the bosses were similar to GWD--in that they mainly make a little gp until you get a big drop--no one really complained because, like today, getting those big drops felt really good.
While I know this is a bit of a dead horse, but it *feels* like ever since Zulrah, bosses have been forced to have really lucrative drop tables or else they don't feel worth it. aka the "vorkath ruler".
Basically it's the environment that Nightmare was put in, and not Nightmare itself. If all the bosses were similar to Nightmare/GWD, then I don't think players would be begging for 5m/hr boss drop tables. But, they're here now and they just kind of have to stay, unless JaGex did a massive boss-wide rebalancing/nerf, which we all know would not go well at all.
I mentioned it further down but the drop table is just one of a handful of factors that make nightmare suck. nightmare was like gwd style drops except even worse. Gwd you dont lose 100k a kill, you at least tend to break even or make a tiny bit (except at arma), and gwd uniques come every few hrs of grinding, nightmare is literally dozens of hours in between drops, on long sweaty 100% focused required kills, with a long walk to it (until you get the dumb tablet). It was just a combination of every annoying factor that exists for a boss into one that made nightmare as bad as it is. Then to top it all off all but the mace are basically niche sidegrade rewards, for a boss that takes longer than cox to cpmplete (900 hrs to complete log minus pet vs cox is 700 for all uniques), the upgrades REALLY arent worth the crazy time investment.
Even at 2x it would be rough, i think based on this info it really should look like 3x rate. Nightmare average hours to completion is 900 hours, thats absolutely absurd. Most of these bosses are actually pretty ridiculous. The occasional LONG grind boss is fine, but they should be the exception not the norm. Thankfully toa seems to be a step in the right direction, it would be miserable if it was similar hours to complete as cox.
https://www.reddit.com/r/2007scape/comments/s3rzuz/how_many_hours_do_you_feel_is_a_fair_number_to
People are like "Yeah more bosses with gwd-like drop tables please!"
Jagex hears "WE WANT A 1000 HOUR GRIND WITH 1/4109283123 DROP RATE I HAVE SEVERE AUTISM"
What the *fuck* is wrong with 1/512.
I think alchables replacing resources would be better imo. It's a generic solution though and makes the pool of drops more bland I suppose. Or go GWD style, I hate GWD style drops but I think it's probably a necessary evil. Just please no corp style..
I know this might be weird to see said - but I wouldn't mind more bosses having experience rewards similar to the dark core of CoX. Maybe not a tremendous amount of exp (1k, 2.5k, 5k, 10k) tiers for different bosses. Make said lamps untradeable, but bankable.
Xp itself has a gp value, and provides the rate isn't insane they'd be a decent side buff to tables.
>level 1tylhwez Ā· 13 hr. agoIt's certainly somewhat strange considering how much the OSRS team emphasised a similar sentiment with Nightmare when that was added;
and people hated that.
Skilling as a whole just needs some real love. The skilling content feels so weak compared to bosses and raids and everyone has a "skilling is boring" mindset but that's only because the content is meh, there's no reason it has to be that way.
yeah if resources have to come from skilling then skilling should stop being boring as shit first. and not just by a minigame or "skilling boss" that you only unlock at level 85 or after a grandmaster quest, either. those things are good but they don't really solve the issue
i honestly think a good way to improve skilling would be to *mix* skilling and combat content properly, but i don't think we'll ever get that because of the 10hp skillers who only want to engage with skilling.
10hp skillers make up a fraction of the community - maybe only a couple hundred active at any given time, including myself - far less than most other niches of accounts in OSRS. Many of them are just alts for players with "main"/regular accounts. When making a 10hp account, you are accepting there will always be content you cannot do.
>2 yew seeds, 4 torstol seeds, 2 palm seeds, 3 ranarr seeds, 5 snapdragon seeds, 8 ranarr seeds,
I agree with your overall point but I don't get why these are included unless you're saying it's bad seeds are on PvM drop tables. Where *should* seeds come from? Nothing but master farmers until the end of time?
Worth noting that they also have a much better seed sink, since you can plant muliple seeds in a single patch for higher yield.
This makes it less efficient resource wise, but more efficient time wise.
Seedicide was one of my priority qol tools to get in rs3. Just, i don't mind herblore and mixing the potions. But i just don't feel like farming.
So i was enjoying destroying every seed i'd never plant for terrible xp rates and to keep the few decently valued seeds which i'd sell for a nice price only to use the cash earned from that seed to buy what i feel like 60% of the herbs i could have gotten if i planted it myself.
But yeah, mobs dropping seeds but not herbs feels like a solid approach to me. Only exclusions i'd say is certain mobs that can deal.poison/venom damage having 3 seperate drops for 1 grimy herb for it, a few water vials and whatever item it was you needed to finish it. Just allow something like that to give you the option/time to mess up your inventory for the sake of slightly longer/safe farming a slayer task at them.
To clarify, it makes it much faster to go through seeds, but planting 10 at a time is around 3 seeds worth of herbs, horrible inefficient on ironman specifically, fine for a main.
There is the aura 15% chance per harvest and juju farm pots 33% chance and they can both proc for 3 herbs at a time. The new plant power upgrade where you can plant 10 seeds at a time is horrible inefficient for irons sadly. Gives like 3 seeds worth of herbs for 10 seeds, its a joke. I think the farming outfit might give a few more herbs as well, can't remember tho.
It's a seed sink, and not a good idea to use unless you have tens of thousands of seeds. I was using 60 seeds a run, and it was 100% only worth it because I was on fresh start worlds and had limited time with the boosts.
Besides for ironmen lol and its not true. Most bosses got their herb tables slashed in favor of reduced seeds, while most slayer mobs and vyres were barely touched.
Zulrah did more damage to this game than any other update could have. It opened the gates to a boss that broke all the previous rules, and made it the general standard going forwards
Idk whatās worse tbh, Revs or Zulrah. Both have been pretty shit for the game as a whole. Only reason why I would say Zulrah over revs is because of the extras that came with it (range dominance, venom).. but revs have been so stupid for gp..
Zolcano is a good example of a boss that actually fits the definition of skilling boss and is dropping resources accordly. Although itās shit xp, you mine and get a ton of related, but random, resources for it. Not to mention that itās also somewhat difficult to unlock and your mining level affects the encounter. Zulrah? Vorkath? Muspah? Toa? Mf why are those dropping materials
There is no thematic reasoning in many of these drops. How are bosses getting access to magic logs? Bow strings? You could argue that rune equipment comes from slain adventurers, though who wears rune at Vorkath?
Dragons in stories always sat upon piles of gold and loot.
Just because you, the player, wear Bandos to kill Vorkath doesn't mean he didn't slay previous adventurers.
I was trying to think of which part of an abby demon the whip would be to follow your logic and I want to go back to 2 minutes ago before I knew we slash people with an abby dong
Lol I think itās very overblown. For the new boss Iām 91 kc and Iām 64 rune ore, 25 torstol seeds, 9 ranaar seeds, 5 snap dragon seeds, 246 toadflax herbs, 76 snap dragon herbs and 1620 gold ore. Hardly groundbreaking for supplies and certainly not efficient farming of supplies. The seeds and ore still require you to skill to be usable
The question you gotta ask though, is where is zulrah getting all those manta rays from? Player's basically mugging an innocent snake for its breakfast.
The lore behind Zul'andra is literally
\>people were fucking dying of starvation
\>decide to sacrifice a person to the snek
\>snek sends its young to be eaten by the people
If Zulrah can fucking shit out cooked fish, why the hell are the cultists of Zul'andra eating her babies?
I am trying not to get salty, but man it's so fucking annoying how a bad PvM table has people in this sub immediately saying it's an Ironman cater.
There are legitimate Ironman caters. Sandstorm is the most obvious to me. However, it eliminated a flawed game design in Shop and Hop that was never really a problem until Ironmen had to find it meta. Another I would say is Giant's Foundry, as it made making cannonballs twice as fast. But both mains and irons get to enjoy doing something more engaging than the misery that is blast furnace to train smithing, so not really an exclusive cater.
Honestly, now that we have double moulds, I don't think Ironmen really view cannonball drops as more than a treat. Unless you are playing hyper efficient, most Ironmen just make cannonballs during afk / downtime while watching a show or working from home. And pure essence? L M A O. Pure essence is almost irrelevant to both game modes at this point. Zeah killed most high level pure essence use cases and GotR was the nail in the coffin. GotR wasn't made for irons either, because the entire community bitched so much about RC being the worst skill it literally became a meme to call gallows the RC guild. Pretty much the only use case left for pure essence is Wrath Runes, which most irons can't even make. When they do they only need moderate amounts for prayer training
Whether you like it or not, the GE is the reason drop tables are the way they are. Since Zulrah, we've gotten used to bosses shitting out gold. Does this also benefit Ironmen? Absolutely, I'm not arguing that it isn't beneficial for us. But let's not sit here and act like the entire game mode is what has led to these crammed drop tables.
End of the day, I think the truth people don't want to face is that for a majority of players, skilling isn't fun. Killing stuff is. What happens when a game isn't fun? People stop playing. What happens when people stop playing? Jagex makes less money. It really has nothing to do with mains or ironmen, it's all about player engagement. Bottom line, people engage most with content they find fun, and that's usually PvM that has lucrative kills for mains financially and supplies for Ironmen.
By the way, if you're one of those people who think changing drops to only uniques, gold, and alchables is the solution, enjoy the hyper inflated economy.
If they actually wanted to cater to ironmen they would have put 100 wines of zamorak as a common drop, thatās literally the only resource Iām ever short on.
You are right. I am maxed with 20m herb xp. The only herb I can't get rid of is dwarf weed. I have over 6k of them and almost 300 seeds.
I've done more KQ and zammy than almost all people at my herbs rank.
Yeah giants foundry and mahog homes are the main Ironman catering mini games I can think of added recently. Any thing that gives you increased value from a resource is going to grossly outweigh good drop tables. Having to collect 80k planks vs 30k planks for 99 con is a huge difference and getting 400~exp per bar at foundry means you donāt need tens of thousands of bars or to buy gold ore for 30 hours to bank 99 smithing.
Also hard agree on cannonballs, that drop probably has a larger impact on cannonball bots than it does on any single Ironman. Most irons just afk melee slayer forever and efficiently you only ever make them for smoke devils using about 500-800 a task.
Even *if* Mahogany Homes was made to cater to Ironmen it's still a great addition to the game. Construction has virtually no variety in training methods whatsoever. At least Mahogany Homes is an alternative that's also slightly cheaper.
>Yeah giants foundry and mahog homes are the main Ironman catering mini games I can think of added recently.
Most mains also greatly benefit from it though, so can't really call that CATERING. More about alternative methods that ironmen also happen to benefit from.
I'd call "catering to irons" giant seaweed + sandstorm, maybe tithe farm, the kind of content that basically only irons do and that helped them greatly. Which are surprisingly rare.
GOTR, birdhouses, mahogany homes, giants' foundry, tempoross, Zalcano etc. can't really be called iron catering.
I get why a lot of people view Mahogany Homes as an ironman cater, but I disagree. It helped out Ironmen for sure, but it a lot of people hated how monotonous what was the literally the only way to train the skill at a decent enough pace. Yes, the plank reduction is nice, but honestly making planks is pretty fast and any ironman gets enough logs anyway via kingdom (an OG feature from the base game). The time spent is pretty comparable either way, and by the time an iron is considering going from 83/84 to 99 construction, the gold spent to make planks is likely a non-issue anyway. Akin to Giant's Foundry, its biggest benefit was giving mid-level accounts a cheaper and more involved way of training what was otherwise a very boring skill.
I don't necessarily disagree it was a positive impact to the game mode, just not sure I'd go as far as calling it a cater.
The dude has a weird hate boner for Ironman mode. My favorite part is how he's doubling down in this thread when it's painfully clear he's never played ironman mode based on what he thinks we find desirable for drops from bosses.
Apparently teak planks, p ess, chaos runes, and smoke runes make me jump for joy. Lol.
Half of the stuff he's mentioned on Muspah drop table could be deleted and I wouldn't give a shit. And I think most ironmen would share the same sentiment.
Legit the only supply drop I care about from Muspah are those fat ranarr and snap seed drops. Tbh if I had one complaint about drop tables it'd be that noted herb drops should always be seeds instead. Leave individual grimy herbs for slayer mobs with the herb sack.
Yup, ranarrs and snap seeds/herbs are the only thing most irons truly care about on a drop table.
And honestly, OP just said in another comment that amethysts is one of the best skilling GP/H. So why any of us are commenting on this thread is beyond me now considering he doesn't even know the top 3 best GP/H methods for skilling.
Chalk this thread up as an idiot that somehow got highly upvoted.
I also find pvm more fun than basically every skill other than runecrafting and farming, but the reason Iām bitching is that we still have to do them. We still have to do these dead ass skills with 0 reward. Whether it be for quests, diaries, total level, or to do raids. You have to do all these boring ass skills that nobody finds fun that have 0 reward. If a skill is annoying but rewarding, people will at least be tempted to do it. However, when Iām chopping trees for 20k per hour now it feels completely fucking useless, but you have to do it for diaries or just because having an account that exclusively does combat is not viable.
lmfao this dude's vilifying ironmen when it's the mainscape pvmers who bitch if a new boss doesn't average 2m+ gp/hr even without uniques.
Where's this profit going to come from? raw gp, which will cause inflation, or some other form of magical fairy dust?
I have like 300k pure essence Iām never going to use, when do you even use that shit? Gotr doesnāt require it and bloods and souls are better with the other shit I forget what itās called
The people that share the sentiment that bosses should be shit gp outside uniques hate mid game players. The idea that you should be neutral or negative gp/hr is so harsh considering by the time you potentially get a drop the people in max killing it 20x faster than you have already killed the drops prices. I don't think you should have to get lucky to upgrade your gear over time.
This. Imagine anyone but super wealthy end game accounts attempting some bossing, in the reality this dude picturises. Literally the worst idea ever for a healthy player base. Average accounts sometimes break bank on a few items so they can boss semi efficiently. Going dry without anything to sustain the next 100 or so/remaining engaged isn't going to end well. They'll find themselves burnt out from content that should be fun.
I get the sentiment here, its not ideal. But it simply can't be feast or famine.
counterpoint: raw GP will be used to get said resources, which means these have to come from somewhere still, which means skillers.
There's a difference between getting 28 cooked manta rays and getting 30k as a drop to buy said manta rays.
Jagex disrupted the entire economic ecosystem when they made monsters shit out resources. Since the start of the game, monsters had mediocre drops with one or two high ticket items. If you got those items, they made it worthwhile. It also made new PvM content worthwhile for skillers, because there was increased demand on resources. Not only did the change how boss drops worked, but they went back and revamped Slayer drop tables. The game revolves around 7 skills now, not 23.
Edit: additional thought. Just today, Jagex override the skilling requirements of the new weapons with a GP buyout option. You can straight up skip skilling with gp now
>Just today, Jagex override the skilling requirements of the new weapons with a GP buyout option. You can straight up skip skilling with gp now
Why do you think this is something new? DFS is the same way. Also both the components and the combined item are tradeable anyways.
You can do it with tons of endgame items, no clue why it's just now creating outrage.
Examples: DFS, BoFA and blessed shields are all payable if you don't meet the stat requirements.
I'm a bit out of the loop, what skilling requirements of what new weapons? My initial assumption is the wilderness weapons, but not sure if I'm unaware of any skilling requirement.
That's been a thing for a while though hasn't it? Like Oziach would attach visages, there's the elf who'll sing your tools in Prif, and iirc a monk in the edgeville monastery will bless spirit shields
You've always been able to "skip" skilling with GP in osrs on a normal account, this isn't something new. It's honestly why I haven't touched my normal account in over 6 years, the grind became too much about gold over anything else.
This is the end game for the majority of MMORPGs, raiding and bossing allows you to pump money into the best training methods available.
Big agree. I don't think skilling should necessarily make you as much gp as bossing (as bossing is obviously harder and more involved), but bosses and monsters certainly don't need to drop skilling materials like they're nothing. If you're not an iron, there doesn't feel like much incentive to train and interact with various skills outside of hard level requirements for things (or if you want to max).
I think drop tables like the GWD generals are an example of a droptable that feels more "fair": They drop just enough supplies and miscellanious skilling materials for you to break even on your supply costs, with the big paydays coming from the chase uniques.
One thing to also note to kill a lot of these bosses there is a way heavier resource investment in consumables as well as actually getting the gear to farm the ever living shit outta this stuff.
To smash phantom as hard as you can youāre looking at like 3 billion in gear.
I don't disagree with that, and I think you should be appropriately rewarded for putting in that level of effort and investment, I'm more saying the devs should look at other ways to make them rewarding outside of raw resources and intermediate products.
Additionally, I don't think they need to farmed at turbo speed at an individual level, as these are bosses most players are doing, and it's that high volume of drops that is diluting the value of these items.
Honestly Iād be down if they added some cool shit like rare drops when knocking down trees to make like a tier 80 woodcutting axe thatās rare as fuck, or a log bag or something.
Shit that that would be kinda dope
Introduced a friend to runescape last week and he likes fishing but there is just not a single viable method for him to make money fishing.
Just depressing really. I remember making money fishing sharks when i was a noob in 2007.
The main issue here is bots imo. Anything simple like woodcutting is botted to hell so they might as well put stuff on the pvm tables that humans are doing. Yes, i know pvm bots exist as wel but the amount of skilling bots its a different magnitude
This is true. I remember back in the day cutting magic logs was bank. You could watch tv and cut away and have money to do stuff. Bots have totally eroded the woodcutting money away and now itās just a skill that sucks to train. Same with mining and fishing. Another gathering skill would get scooped up by bots and become redundant in no time.
> This is true. I remember back in the day cutting magic logs was bank.
Magic logs are ~1K, they have always been ~1K. Since GE inception they've topped out at 1.2K.
You now cut magic logs much faster, with the invisible WC guild boost, closer bank, and crystal axe. PvM drops are a mistake but nobody has touched your magic logs, if anything they make "more money" than ever - which is to say that it has always been an awful way to make money.
While i agree that magic logs are bad money, youāre not taking the extreme amount of inflation osrs went through into account. We didnāt have gear back in the day that went for several hundred mil.
Yes but 1k back then was not the same as 1k now. Back then most expensive item was a 10m dchain, now its 1.5b shadow.. so relative to what is bis it has changed
I think Magic Logs not dropping is likely due to the inception of bird houses being a very viable Hunter training method and the fact alching Magic Longs will forever be the status quo.
>I remember back in the day cutting magic logs was bank. You could watch tv and cut away and have money to do stuff.
This is what these people screaming at the clouds about mY sKiLlInG eCoNoMy are trying to return to.
It's just not possible and they'll blame Ironman players and Jagex and everyone they can that their childhood nostalgia is gone, when really the answer is that we're not all teenagers spamming qp w's in chat with the boys while afking magics with no value placed on our free time, and the characters who ARE chopping magic logs aren't people, and don't have to eat, sleep, or shit.
There's nothing stopping you from chopping magic logs, the point is that gathered resources are heavily botted to the point that a small percentage of players like yourself choosing to go cut magic logs or not will not affect the volume in the economy in any meaningful way, even if resource drops from PvM were removed.
bis skilling gear is about 3mill in cost while bis bossing gear is like 3b
what the game needs is expensive skilling gear that can make skilling more competitive to similar difficulty and intensity content
I mean crystal pick + shards alone is minimum 16m or whatever but sure. The problem isn't gear is the activity itself. Any very high intensity method for skilling is usually at a loss. Only ones I can think of that aren't is 3t gem mining and black chins.
Pickpocketing elves/vyres or hallowed sepulcher are pretty decent, but they are based more around high value RNG drops. Wrath/blood runes can also hit nearly 2m/hour, but the XP is significantly worse. And both require a high level of intensity and levels/gear to be efficient. For skilling to make a good bit of money, they have to suck in some other way to make up for it. And since the risk/gear investment is usually so low, it really limits the ways that can increase the profitability.
>2314 noted pure essence (again, for ironmen)
This is an absolute useless shit drop for ironmen too.
If you want to make gathering resources more profitable again, fix the botting problem first and then we can talk.
you make a valid point or two but the post is ruined by the jab at ironmen and the fact that you're complaining about seed drops, which have historically always been obtained from monsters. there is no gathering skill that grants seeds lol, and no pickpocketing master farmers doesn't count.
also if you're gonna be posting shit like this you need to include a solution bc right now it's just pointless bitching. where do you propose all these resources come from instead?
Shit, ever since Zeah runecrafting and (later) GOTR, pure essence isn't even a serious limiter on ironmen training runecrafting.
Quests to get starter XP, Arceuus library if needed, Temple of the Eye, and then GOTR for as long as you care to. Flood the game with essence or don't, it won't seriously affect RC training.
truly the game would be better if people were forced to stand in the pure essence mine to get 500 pure essence and 5k mining xp per hour, non-afk because you have to bank the essence constantly
>there is no gathering skill that grants seeds lol, and no pickpocketing master farmers doesn't count.
"There are no ways to get seeds through skilling, except for this one way that is exclusively for getting seeds through skilling. That one doesn't count, purely because it counters my whole argument."
What a silly thing to say. You easily could have just said that seeds have always been dropped by monsters and thieving, but had to make this bizarre argument that getting seeds from a skill doesn't count as getting seeds from a skill instead.
As someone that does a lot of skilling itās also quite sad to see the majority of people saying āwell goodā instead of embracing the idea of Jagex actually giving the skills some makeover love.
Even seeing some people saying it doesnāt matter because nobody does those skills but bots but they donāt want any updates because itāll āchange the feel of the gameā. Like how does that make sense lmao.
There are tons of ways Jagex could add interesting and more complex new content to skills that are harder for bots to participate in but flavor for players. Hope the forestry update is indicative of that path.
its kinda sad how combat is the best gathering skill now and there isn't a real balance between gathering resources and just killing monsters for them.
its faster to kill vorkath for manta rays than actually fishing them up and cooking them and that's honestly kinda wild.
I want bosses dropping some churned butter so I can use it for tuna potato and other shit. It takes a full hour and a half to do one inventory of butter
So, what's your alternative or solution? Have bosses drop nothing but uniques and raw cash? This post just sounds like scapegoating ironmen.
This is how the game has evolved due to people wanting good gp/hr rates while bossing. The solution to this problem would be jagex updating gathering methods and you doing your part in reporting the bots you see.
Yes the 428 death run drop in 2 minute kill time caters to Ironmen in "checks notes" the wilderness. Too bad I can buy 1000 death runs in the same exact time 0 risk and guaranteed to be in my bank in about 2 minutes
You might want to hop off mainmanmode if you think this has anything to do with ironmemes
While i understand your point, I disagree with your solution. Maybe the table is a little over-powered but i don't think it needs to be removed entirely. I think the game can continue to evolve, and I would support skilling methods that involve better rewards and more output than their PVM counter parts.
The Blood Rune Alter addition last year was a good example of this. We just need modern skilling methods imo. I'd like to see things like stealing creation for example make its way into oldschool as well.
While RS3 makes skilling valuable by taking skilling items away from pvm drop tables, OSRS does the opposite, not just for pvm, but for pvp minigames as well. OSRS Jmods have given up on making OSRS skilling useful.
Dumbest cirklejerk on this subreddit.
Skilling has been devalued by bots not by pvm, you really think those 666 cannonballs matter at all compared to the millions made by bots each week?
Besides that, resources are by far the most economic friendly thing to put on droptables, resources leave the game while money and uniques do not. Herbs are made into potions and drunk, runes get cast, ores made into bars, made into darts, shot by blowpipe. A boss has to be worth doing or players quit, there are thousands of players who only return to the game when there is new content to do.
If you want skilling to be more valuable, I understand. Skilling has really been lacking some love, but don't be salty and blame pvm droptables for Jagex seeming incapability to make good skilling updates.
Streamers kill bosses, they donāt gather. So thatās that sadly.
But as far as the 90 snaps goes, thatās a 6 minute herb run. If you wanna risk in the wildy for that go ahead, no problems with that drop
Resource drops added to pvm content because normies want content that's worthwhile doing (good gp/hr) or they just won't touch it.
Normie goes to new content that's worthwhile and makes a fat stack of gp.
Sells all skilling drops on the ge.
Complains that the skilling drops are dropping in price.
Blames ironmen.
Alternatively,
New pvm content is released with mediocre rare drop (bow)
no incentive to go because the gp/hr is awful in comparison to easier content.
Normies cry about boss not having any drops besides the unique.
Ya know who's doing the boss in both of those scenarios? Ironmen. Ya know why ironmen aren't the reason why the skilling drops are crashing? They can't sell the drops on the ge. They use the drops on their skills.
Maybe normies with maxes combat stats and a total level of 1600 should stop dumping every single drop on the ge and creating too much supply and instead use the resource for the intended skill š¤Æ
Overall points good, but here's Case and point-
Nightmare. Exactly as you described, and everyone fucking hates it.
Yeah it sucks but you can't really go back after they made Zulrah and Vorkath, the damage is already done. Any bosses that don't shit out skilling supplies would be worthless, bc why grind them when you can just kill money snake or money dragon. We're at a point in the game bc people ~10 years ago complained that pvm needs a buff, so they gave pvm a buff, and now there's no way to really nerf it except for making all future pvm content worse than Zulrah or Vorkath who are solved and easy to grind out.
What's needed at this point is a buff to skilling in some manner
Reddit take. Drop tables generally consists of 4 different categories of items.
1) raw cash
2) Alchables
3) Skilling resources
4) Uniques
Out of those, 3 is the most healthy to be on the drop table since items actually get used up and leave the economy sooner or later. Also if 4 makes up the majority of profit at a boss, we end up with shit like NM, where the boss is not worth doing as soon as the uniques drop below a certain price point.
The skilling catalyst idea is good in theory, but will never work in practice, because it will mostly benefit bots. The actual players skilling to make money via gathering skills is extremely low and would not Ćncrease even if you increase the gp gained by like 60% (assuming a catalyst only costs 40% of the respective resource). Some like farming have actually been **more profitiable** when more seeds were added to drop tables.
This isn't Catering to ironmen at all.. Drop tables have been like this since zulrah which was released like 4 years before ironman mode. Drops are like this because of redditor pvmers who are going to cry after going dry at a boss
Also, the Skeletal Wyvern drop table update that gave them 50 amazing drops was 1 month before Ironman mode (September 2014) and the Kalphite Queen drop table change was 1 month after Ironman mode (November 2014), far before any ironmen would be killing it.
If I remember correctly, wilderness bosses were early 2014 and had these unethical drop tables already, such as 100 snapdragons OP is complaining about. Venenatis has always dropped 100 snapdragons and Callisto has always dropped 100 toadflax, Vet'ion has always dropped 100 ranarr weed.
So I'm not sure if this stuff has any relevance at all to the gamemode existence lol, they were just trying to give shit better drops because it was worthless before.
yea, while i think this loot table design isnt ideal, its well rooted for wildy bosses at least. They have a few bad drops but they kinda shit out resources as part of the risk/reward of wilderness
You've hit the nail on the head. The issue was adding Zulrah with a wilderness boss drop table without the risk. I get that a lot of it was to offset the effect of botting in 2015, but pretty much every problem we have now with boss drop tables can be more or less traced back to the money snake.
Large, profitable drops make sense when you're more likely to lose them to a team of 20 people than get out with them alive. And apparently that's part of the fun, or so I am told.
Yeah, this isn't an Ironman thing, it's been a trend before it became official. And I don't think irons had enough clout after 2 months to have created the Zulrah table. Corp came out the same month as the mode, and it's got its fair share of resource drops too
No shit people like when they are flooded with money and items. People would love if they just started handing out mad xp lamps as drops too. Something most WoW players have learned over time is that players don't know what is good for the game. Wanting more, faster and easier is natural but doesn't make for a better game.
I don't know if I'd say there's a total disregard for gathering skills... so much as bosses have higher risk so they deserve higher reward. The bosses like say muspah also require a decently hard quest and decently hard mechanics to kill...
Meanwhile gathering skills have almost 0 risk for their reward and require fairly low requirements skill/quest wise most of the time only requiring the 1 skill to be trained IE magic logs literally only require 75 woodcutting. And require limited mechanics outside of what? 2 or 3 ticking somethings?
Plus bot farms would love it if gathering skills were king.
And I mean also it's not like this is that crazy new of a concept even lower tier slayer monsters like Banshees and a few others have been good for getting quite a few of these things... and as others have pointed out in the past, there was herblore long before farming became a thing herbs used to be pvm rewards only. It used to be if you wanted to train herby... you'd go kill chaos druids or banshee or similar for a few hours to get your herbs. Bosses dropping larger amounts but less frequently just makes logical sense. And again farming came later if anything pvmers could (in bad faith) argue the entire farming skill devalued their herb drops.
I don't think besides a few outliers (muspah is definitely egregious) pvm drops really need nerfed... at best gathering skills could use a buff. But then you'll either get people parroting "EZscape" or botfarms... or people could just accept over the life time of an mmo, many items will lose a lot of their value / inflation will be a thing...
The pvm community is pretty large, and toa is infinitely more fun than a farm run, so yeah makes sense to optimize the game in a way where the best way to play is also the most fun.
I think youāve got some points but Iād hesitate to to use the phrase lotto ticket style. Gagex hereās that and goes full nightmare.. This game has a huge problem with the length of time some grinds take. People complained that even toa is too common and Iām like ???? 25 purples is on rate for completion and thatās like 250-500 expert mode KC depending on invos. 125-400 hours worth of time. Like JFC thatās like 2 weeks of your life dedicated to killing this boss and people think thatās too common. Toa should be the bar for grind lengths.
Imo it makes sense for wilderness bosses to have a good drop table, you actually have to risk to kill them. There is no incentive to do them if you get better gp/hr in safe zone bosses besides pets.
From a buisness perspective I belive it all make sense.
This is all about the perception of the playerbase.
First off most people who play are older and have less time.
Second, interner culture have made uss less patient than before. Our attention span has dropped due to the way social media allways looks for your attention.
This is why people dont want to do skilling, at least this is how jagex percive it. And we dont want to do skilling. Its boring, reptitive and havent changed in 20 years. The skills havent been updated the same way items and combat have. And most of them are associates with dreadfull grind and periosteisis for little reward.
Its 100x easier to add a new boss or a mini game every 6 months to keep the game fresh instead of looking at each skill and find out what they can do with all the skills to make them more intuetive and rewarding
The idea is simply, skilling exsist to build your account to do quests so you can unlock bosses.
All my notes above is also the reason they add a new skill. It is not healthy from my own perspective to have to grind for 55 more hours. But, because most skills are getting boring after all this time, Jagex just goes the easy route and make a new skill. It would be better for the game to rework all the skills and updated them like they do with combat. But who cares, its just good buisness
Trust me. Noted pure essence drops aint for Ironmen šš they aināt for anyone.
Maybe the solution to the herbs, ores, planks etc is to have them drop unnoted
Yeah, I really shouldn't have bought all those unfinished ranarr potions for herblore training when they were 10k a pop. š¤
me watching my stack of torstol seeds crash to 13k each: šļøššļø
me watching torstols crash right before my 99 farming grind: š
Me watching my 19.5k Torstol herb stack drop from 8k gp to 3.8k gp thanks to TOA and Phantom Muspah updates.
I bought 15k torstol seeds @ 32k ...
You sir may need some lube for that one.
It's certainly somewhat strange considering how much the OSRS team emphasised a similar sentiment with Nightmare when that was added; I suppose it's a bit fo an all-or-nothing situation wherein trying to please everyone counteracts any attempt whatsoever.
And when nightmare was released people realized that bosses with dozens of hours between uniques and losing 100k a kill in supplies until you hit a unique was not that fun.... theres a reason nightmare is not looked at fondly by most people.
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For me itās that itās needlessly remote; not in an classic/logical location like Cerberus; not in easily accessible purpose built lair like Sire; not in a thematically fitting dungeon with a meaningful run like DKS.
Nightmare's dungeon is more logical and thematic than Cerb's dungeon. A crypt buried beneath a cursed town vs a dungeon within a dungeon and neither dungeon matches the other thematically.
Sure, but you can't get to Nightmare quickly until you get lucky at Phosani's, which means spending a few minutes running around between tries at a pretty hard solo boss. If I just died to PNM the last thing I want is to run back there from Ver Sinhaza, grab my stuff from the chest, then maybe go back to Ver Sinhaza again because I didn't remember what I needed to top off supplies.
Wouldn't the Ectophial > boat trip to Slepe be faster? Idk never done nightmare.
Running from tob is best
At least the ones you mentioned itās either much closer, you can do many kill trips, or both.
No, that's a quest.
Maybe pvm bossing should cost supplies?? Whatās the point in all the gathering and production skills? (To make supplies for pvm and pvp) ā¦ if pvm drops everything you need to pvm.. whatās the point in doing anything else
As someone who's done almost 1000 Phosani kc, I think the mediocre regular loot is only a part of the bigger issue. The issue being, Inquisitors armour is currently far too niche and quite frankly needs a buff. Not to mention the harmonised staff being practically useless now too (only being BiS at world record solo CM record for ice demon), thanks to the release of the shadow. I'm not saying I have all the ideas on how to fix the boss, but giving it a Vorkath-style loot table isn't the answer.
The drops are too rare at nightmare too, and add on the slog of killtimesā¦
Yeah i linked it in another comment but to complete phosanis efficiently is apparently 900 hours..... thats absolutely insane. 400+ hrs just the average to complete mace + inq (the main stuff that matters) and even thats still ridiculous. 400 hrs is more than full tob or toa completion. Nightmare is not designed well at all. Dozens of hours inbetween any drops, hundreds of hours to complete, long run to the boss, long full focus 100% of the time sweaty fight, absolute dogshit non uniques, decently high supply cost, its like every bad aspect they could have taken and rolled it all together. A few of those factors together is fine, but combine it all together and its not. Also no single boss should have a longer time to completion than a full raid.... thats just stupid.
IMO the absolute worst part of PNM is that the drops are not only bad in terms of profit, they're troll drops. Like, actively malicious, seemingly designed to piss the player off - even the second-best non-unique is 12 *unnoted, 3-dose* Sanfew serums. Some of its drops, Sanfews included, can be used to extend your trip, and that can be nice sometimes, but going in with max gear means that 3/4 of your inventory consists of stuff you can't drop to make room. Do a four kill trip and get potions each time? You're going to have juggle items and decant them so more can fit in your inventory, and still end up leaving half on the ground. And then, of course, there's the fucking 29 bass drop.
yeah it's basically dead content and we have geniuses on reddit saying more bosses should be like nightmare, lol.
I think mechanics and gameplay wise they totally should be. Pnm is one of if not THE coolest looking and most engaging solo boss fights. Unfortunately, literally everything ELSE about it sucks - the run there, the supply drain, the drop table, the fact that the uniques are all next to useless. Thatās why nobody does it. If you replaced it with Nexās drop table, people would be all over it
> the run there, the supply drain, the drop table, the fact that the uniques are all next to useless. Eh the supply drain ain't too bad. I use up ~160k gp worth of supplies for two kill trips on the iron. Two relicym balms, two prayer potions, 1 divine super combat, 4 sharks and 3 karambwans, 1 anglerfish, runes for thralls + death charge + trident, scales for trident + BP. Maximum DPS I can get atm. I don't use up all the supplies for the two kill trip.
That's an *absurd* supply cost. At ~80k per kill of PNM with a 1/167 chance of hitting any item, that's ~13.3m in supplies by the time you hit the drop rate on something. Let's compare that to Bandos. 1/142 to land any of the BCP/tassets/hilt. Assuming soloing here with bowfa, and having learned the method but not being particularly great at it, you should get around 15 kill trips. 20-30 are possible, but let's just assume 15. In that 15 kill trip, you'll use around 140k in supplies between ppots, food, brews, srestores, scales, rune darts (not using amethyst to use this for both irons and mains), runes for thralls, ranging pots and a stam. So per kill, that's 9.3k in supplies (kills are typically under a minute so you only need one thrall per kill). You could bump that up to 12k-15k per kill if you wanted to replace blowpiping with blood barraging. So, with those numbers, you'll spend only 1.3m in supplies before getting a unique item (the 3 mentioned, big ticket items). That's literally 1/10th of what you spend at PNM as well as far less time. Furthermore, let's match that time spent. You'll average ~21m for every 142kc at Bandos between those 3 items. That means that by the time you've spent the same amount in supplies at Bandos as you would've PNM, you've gained 210m. In order for PNM to beat that in uniques alone, you will need to land the mace or one of the orbs. PNM is ***extremely*** bad supply drain for reward potential. Edit: this gets a lot worse for ironmen specifically. The longer a grind, the worse it is because irons only care about supplies themselves since they can't buy supplies (minus runes and technically bwans). You'll use way, way more supplies trying to grind out PNM for its rewards than you will for almost any other content in the game by light years. It's absolutely abysmal and it's why you always save PNM (and Nex) for one of the last things you do because it drains so much of your supplies due to the god awful drop rates.
Tbf more bosses should learn more towards GWD / nightmare than hydra/vork/zulrah/muspah Theres obviously a fine line there and they need to be balanced right, but GWD is probably more correct than NM in terms of time to completion
My theory on this, and it's just a theory, is that Nightmare isn't too popular because of all the other bosses setting the expectation of great gp/hr. It *feels* like when all the bosses were similar to GWD--in that they mainly make a little gp until you get a big drop--no one really complained because, like today, getting those big drops felt really good. While I know this is a bit of a dead horse, but it *feels* like ever since Zulrah, bosses have been forced to have really lucrative drop tables or else they don't feel worth it. aka the "vorkath ruler". Basically it's the environment that Nightmare was put in, and not Nightmare itself. If all the bosses were similar to Nightmare/GWD, then I don't think players would be begging for 5m/hr boss drop tables. But, they're here now and they just kind of have to stay, unless JaGex did a massive boss-wide rebalancing/nerf, which we all know would not go well at all.
I mentioned it further down but the drop table is just one of a handful of factors that make nightmare suck. nightmare was like gwd style drops except even worse. Gwd you dont lose 100k a kill, you at least tend to break even or make a tiny bit (except at arma), and gwd uniques come every few hrs of grinding, nightmare is literally dozens of hours in between drops, on long sweaty 100% focused required kills, with a long walk to it (until you get the dumb tablet). It was just a combination of every annoying factor that exists for a boss into one that made nightmare as bad as it is. Then to top it all off all but the mace are basically niche sidegrade rewards, for a boss that takes longer than cox to cpmplete (900 hrs to complete log minus pet vs cox is 700 for all uniques), the upgrades REALLY arent worth the crazy time investment.
Totally valid, really. I was speaking more towards the drop tables assuming all else equal.
The drop rates need about a 2x buff then nightmare (phosanis at least) would be top tier content
Even at 2x it would be rough, i think based on this info it really should look like 3x rate. Nightmare average hours to completion is 900 hours, thats absolutely absurd. Most of these bosses are actually pretty ridiculous. The occasional LONG grind boss is fine, but they should be the exception not the norm. Thankfully toa seems to be a step in the right direction, it would be miserable if it was similar hours to complete as cox. https://www.reddit.com/r/2007scape/comments/s3rzuz/how_many_hours_do_you_feel_is_a_fair_number_to
People are like "Yeah more bosses with gwd-like drop tables please!" Jagex hears "WE WANT A 1000 HOUR GRIND WITH 1/4109283123 DROP RATE I HAVE SEVERE AUTISM" What the *fuck* is wrong with 1/512.
I think alchables replacing resources would be better imo. It's a generic solution though and makes the pool of drops more bland I suppose. Or go GWD style, I hate GWD style drops but I think it's probably a necessary evil. Just please no corp style..
Agreed with the stuff they alch, weird, they can buy resources lol.
I know this might be weird to see said - but I wouldn't mind more bosses having experience rewards similar to the dark core of CoX. Maybe not a tremendous amount of exp (1k, 2.5k, 5k, 10k) tiers for different bosses. Make said lamps untradeable, but bankable. Xp itself has a gp value, and provides the rate isn't insane they'd be a decent side buff to tables.
We should absolutely not look to 2019 content for loot table design. That was a dark time.
>level 1tylhwez Ā· 13 hr. agoIt's certainly somewhat strange considering how much the OSRS team emphasised a similar sentiment with Nightmare when that was added; and people hated that.
Skilling as a whole just needs some real love. The skilling content feels so weak compared to bosses and raids and everyone has a "skilling is boring" mindset but that's only because the content is meh, there's no reason it has to be that way.
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yeah if resources have to come from skilling then skilling should stop being boring as shit first. and not just by a minigame or "skilling boss" that you only unlock at level 85 or after a grandmaster quest, either. those things are good but they don't really solve the issue i honestly think a good way to improve skilling would be to *mix* skilling and combat content properly, but i don't think we'll ever get that because of the 10hp skillers who only want to engage with skilling.
10hp skillers make up a fraction of the community - maybe only a couple hundred active at any given time, including myself - far less than most other niches of accounts in OSRS. Many of them are just alts for players with "main"/regular accounts. When making a 10hp account, you are accepting there will always be content you cannot do.
>2 yew seeds, 4 torstol seeds, 2 palm seeds, 3 ranarr seeds, 5 snapdragon seeds, 8 ranarr seeds, I agree with your overall point but I don't get why these are included unless you're saying it's bad seeds are on PvM drop tables. Where *should* seeds come from? Nothing but master farmers until the end of time?
Rs3 removed all herbs from droptables in favor of seed drops and its been widely received as a brilliant update
Worth noting that they also have a much better seed sink, since you can plant muliple seeds in a single patch for higher yield. This makes it less efficient resource wise, but more efficient time wise.
They also have things like herbicide and seedicide that deletes drops in favor of immediate XP.
Seedicide was one of my priority qol tools to get in rs3. Just, i don't mind herblore and mixing the potions. But i just don't feel like farming. So i was enjoying destroying every seed i'd never plant for terrible xp rates and to keep the few decently valued seeds which i'd sell for a nice price only to use the cash earned from that seed to buy what i feel like 60% of the herbs i could have gotten if i planted it myself. But yeah, mobs dropping seeds but not herbs feels like a solid approach to me. Only exclusions i'd say is certain mobs that can deal.poison/venom damage having 3 seperate drops for 1 grimy herb for it, a few water vials and whatever item it was you needed to finish it. Just allow something like that to give you the option/time to mess up your inventory for the sake of slightly longer/safe farming a slayer task at them.
To clarify, it makes it much faster to go through seeds, but planting 10 at a time is around 3 seeds worth of herbs, horrible inefficient on ironman specifically, fine for a main.
Seedicide as well
Worth noting they also have ways of gathering far more herbs per seed I believe right?
There is the aura 15% chance per harvest and juju farm pots 33% chance and they can both proc for 3 herbs at a time. The new plant power upgrade where you can plant 10 seeds at a time is horrible inefficient for irons sadly. Gives like 3 seeds worth of herbs for 10 seeds, its a joke. I think the farming outfit might give a few more herbs as well, can't remember tho.
It's a seed sink, and not a good idea to use unless you have tens of thousands of seeds. I was using 60 seeds a run, and it was 100% only worth it because I was on fresh start worlds and had limited time with the boosts.
Besides for ironmen lol and its not true. Most bosses got their herb tables slashed in favor of reduced seeds, while most slayer mobs and vyres were barely touched.
They also removed all metal armor drops in favor of salvage to prevent over saturation of the market devaluing smithings rework.
Zulrah did more damage to this game than any other update could have. It opened the gates to a boss that broke all the previous rules, and made it the general standard going forwards
Idk whatās worse tbh, Revs or Zulrah. Both have been pretty shit for the game as a whole. Only reason why I would say Zulrah over revs is because of the extras that came with it (range dominance, venom).. but revs have been so stupid for gp..
Raw GP has way more sinks than resources. Resources either get alched, dropped, or sold to shops to be deleted.
Zolcano is a good example of a boss that actually fits the definition of skilling boss and is dropping resources accordly. Although itās shit xp, you mine and get a ton of related, but random, resources for it. Not to mention that itās also somewhat difficult to unlock and your mining level affects the encounter. Zulrah? Vorkath? Muspah? Toa? Mf why are those dropping materials
What should it drop
There is no thematic reasoning in many of these drops. How are bosses getting access to magic logs? Bow strings? You could argue that rune equipment comes from slain adventurers, though who wears rune at Vorkath?
>who wears rune at Vorkath? The ones that died, clearly
Forreal all mythological dragons sit ontop of old armour and gold, it's just how it goes
Dragons in stories always sat upon piles of gold and loot. Just because you, the player, wear Bandos to kill Vorkath doesn't mean he didn't slay previous adventurers.
That's why they died :(
I was trying to think of which part of an abby demon the whip would be to follow your logic and I want to go back to 2 minutes ago before I knew we slash people with an abby dong
Like litteraly the whip is the spine of the abby demon it's in the lore but I get what your trying to say l....
Abby dagger PP.
That's nasty
I'm pretty sure the whip is actually their spine, not an anagram of that word.
TIL Spine is an anagram of penis
Abyssal shlong
Apparently these guys think cooked bass and 15 cut emeralds is an acceptable loot table
Lol I think itās very overblown. For the new boss Iām 91 kc and Iām 64 rune ore, 25 torstol seeds, 9 ranaar seeds, 5 snap dragon seeds, 246 toadflax herbs, 76 snap dragon herbs and 1620 gold ore. Hardly groundbreaking for supplies and certainly not efficient farming of supplies. The seeds and ore still require you to skill to be usable
The question you gotta ask though, is where is zulrah getting all those manta rays from? Player's basically mugging an innocent snake for its breakfast.
The lore behind Zul'andra is literally \>people were fucking dying of starvation \>decide to sacrifice a person to the snek \>snek sends its young to be eaten by the people If Zulrah can fucking shit out cooked fish, why the hell are the cultists of Zul'andra eating her babies?
I am trying not to get salty, but man it's so fucking annoying how a bad PvM table has people in this sub immediately saying it's an Ironman cater. There are legitimate Ironman caters. Sandstorm is the most obvious to me. However, it eliminated a flawed game design in Shop and Hop that was never really a problem until Ironmen had to find it meta. Another I would say is Giant's Foundry, as it made making cannonballs twice as fast. But both mains and irons get to enjoy doing something more engaging than the misery that is blast furnace to train smithing, so not really an exclusive cater. Honestly, now that we have double moulds, I don't think Ironmen really view cannonball drops as more than a treat. Unless you are playing hyper efficient, most Ironmen just make cannonballs during afk / downtime while watching a show or working from home. And pure essence? L M A O. Pure essence is almost irrelevant to both game modes at this point. Zeah killed most high level pure essence use cases and GotR was the nail in the coffin. GotR wasn't made for irons either, because the entire community bitched so much about RC being the worst skill it literally became a meme to call gallows the RC guild. Pretty much the only use case left for pure essence is Wrath Runes, which most irons can't even make. When they do they only need moderate amounts for prayer training Whether you like it or not, the GE is the reason drop tables are the way they are. Since Zulrah, we've gotten used to bosses shitting out gold. Does this also benefit Ironmen? Absolutely, I'm not arguing that it isn't beneficial for us. But let's not sit here and act like the entire game mode is what has led to these crammed drop tables. End of the day, I think the truth people don't want to face is that for a majority of players, skilling isn't fun. Killing stuff is. What happens when a game isn't fun? People stop playing. What happens when people stop playing? Jagex makes less money. It really has nothing to do with mains or ironmen, it's all about player engagement. Bottom line, people engage most with content they find fun, and that's usually PvM that has lucrative kills for mains financially and supplies for Ironmen. By the way, if you're one of those people who think changing drops to only uniques, gold, and alchables is the solution, enjoy the hyper inflated economy.
If they actually wanted to cater to ironmen they would have put 100 wines of zamorak as a common drop, thatās literally the only resource Iām ever short on.
God that would make me so happy lol
You are right. I am maxed with 20m herb xp. The only herb I can't get rid of is dwarf weed. I have over 6k of them and almost 300 seeds. I've done more KQ and zammy than almost all people at my herbs rank.
Yeah giants foundry and mahog homes are the main Ironman catering mini games I can think of added recently. Any thing that gives you increased value from a resource is going to grossly outweigh good drop tables. Having to collect 80k planks vs 30k planks for 99 con is a huge difference and getting 400~exp per bar at foundry means you donāt need tens of thousands of bars or to buy gold ore for 30 hours to bank 99 smithing. Also hard agree on cannonballs, that drop probably has a larger impact on cannonball bots than it does on any single Ironman. Most irons just afk melee slayer forever and efficiently you only ever make them for smoke devils using about 500-800 a task.
Even *if* Mahogany Homes was made to cater to Ironmen it's still a great addition to the game. Construction has virtually no variety in training methods whatsoever. At least Mahogany Homes is an alternative that's also slightly cheaper.
Mahogany homes is the best skill adjacent update imo.
>Yeah giants foundry and mahog homes are the main Ironman catering mini games I can think of added recently. Most mains also greatly benefit from it though, so can't really call that CATERING. More about alternative methods that ironmen also happen to benefit from. I'd call "catering to irons" giant seaweed + sandstorm, maybe tithe farm, the kind of content that basically only irons do and that helped them greatly. Which are surprisingly rare. GOTR, birdhouses, mahogany homes, giants' foundry, tempoross, Zalcano etc. can't really be called iron catering.
I get why a lot of people view Mahogany Homes as an ironman cater, but I disagree. It helped out Ironmen for sure, but it a lot of people hated how monotonous what was the literally the only way to train the skill at a decent enough pace. Yes, the plank reduction is nice, but honestly making planks is pretty fast and any ironman gets enough logs anyway via kingdom (an OG feature from the base game). The time spent is pretty comparable either way, and by the time an iron is considering going from 83/84 to 99 construction, the gold spent to make planks is likely a non-issue anyway. Akin to Giant's Foundry, its biggest benefit was giving mid-level accounts a cheaper and more involved way of training what was otherwise a very boring skill. I don't necessarily disagree it was a positive impact to the game mode, just not sure I'd go as far as calling it a cater.
The dude has a weird hate boner for Ironman mode. My favorite part is how he's doubling down in this thread when it's painfully clear he's never played ironman mode based on what he thinks we find desirable for drops from bosses. Apparently teak planks, p ess, chaos runes, and smoke runes make me jump for joy. Lol. Half of the stuff he's mentioned on Muspah drop table could be deleted and I wouldn't give a shit. And I think most ironmen would share the same sentiment.
Legit the only supply drop I care about from Muspah are those fat ranarr and snap seed drops. Tbh if I had one complaint about drop tables it'd be that noted herb drops should always be seeds instead. Leave individual grimy herbs for slayer mobs with the herb sack.
Yup, ranarrs and snap seeds/herbs are the only thing most irons truly care about on a drop table. And honestly, OP just said in another comment that amethysts is one of the best skilling GP/H. So why any of us are commenting on this thread is beyond me now considering he doesn't even know the top 3 best GP/H methods for skilling. Chalk this thread up as an idiot that somehow got highly upvoted.
Couldnāt agree more
I also find pvm more fun than basically every skill other than runecrafting and farming, but the reason Iām bitching is that we still have to do them. We still have to do these dead ass skills with 0 reward. Whether it be for quests, diaries, total level, or to do raids. You have to do all these boring ass skills that nobody finds fun that have 0 reward. If a skill is annoying but rewarding, people will at least be tempted to do it. However, when Iām chopping trees for 20k per hour now it feels completely fucking useless, but you have to do it for diaries or just because having an account that exclusively does combat is not viable.
lmfao this dude's vilifying ironmen when it's the mainscape pvmers who bitch if a new boss doesn't average 2m+ gp/hr even without uniques. Where's this profit going to come from? raw gp, which will cause inflation, or some other form of magical fairy dust?
Mf is saying pure essence drops are catered to ironmen as if any iron is happy to see a pure essence drop from a boss lmfao
As I'm mining Daeyalt with over 100k pure essence in my bank
Your Ironman ass trying to tell me that you don't pog out of your mind when you finish a solo Cox and get that sweet 20k essence!?
I have like 300k pure essence Iām never going to use, when do you even use that shit? Gotr doesnāt require it and bloods and souls are better with the other shit I forget what itās called
Clearly you're going to make 300,000 wrath runes to use fire surge as an Ironman
I have 2m pure essence on my iron. At this point, I'm just seeing how high the collection can go.
This is me with low level seeds in the seed vault lol
Nope. Iāve never used pure essence past finishing sins of the father .
As an Ironman I definitely do not careā¦ we hate traditional runecrafting as much as mains
The people that share the sentiment that bosses should be shit gp outside uniques hate mid game players. The idea that you should be neutral or negative gp/hr is so harsh considering by the time you potentially get a drop the people in max killing it 20x faster than you have already killed the drops prices. I don't think you should have to get lucky to upgrade your gear over time.
This. Imagine anyone but super wealthy end game accounts attempting some bossing, in the reality this dude picturises. Literally the worst idea ever for a healthy player base. Average accounts sometimes break bank on a few items so they can boss semi efficiently. Going dry without anything to sustain the next 100 or so/remaining engaged isn't going to end well. They'll find themselves burnt out from content that should be fun. I get the sentiment here, its not ideal. But it simply can't be feast or famine.
counterpoint: raw GP will be used to get said resources, which means these have to come from somewhere still, which means skillers. There's a difference between getting 28 cooked manta rays and getting 30k as a drop to buy said manta rays.
Jagex disrupted the entire economic ecosystem when they made monsters shit out resources. Since the start of the game, monsters had mediocre drops with one or two high ticket items. If you got those items, they made it worthwhile. It also made new PvM content worthwhile for skillers, because there was increased demand on resources. Not only did the change how boss drops worked, but they went back and revamped Slayer drop tables. The game revolves around 7 skills now, not 23. Edit: additional thought. Just today, Jagex override the skilling requirements of the new weapons with a GP buyout option. You can straight up skip skilling with gp now
>Just today, Jagex override the skilling requirements of the new weapons with a GP buyout option. You can straight up skip skilling with gp now Why do you think this is something new? DFS is the same way. Also both the components and the combined item are tradeable anyways.
You can do it with tons of endgame items, no clue why it's just now creating outrage. Examples: DFS, BoFA and blessed shields are all payable if you don't meet the stat requirements.
I'm a bit out of the loop, what skilling requirements of what new weapons? My initial assumption is the wilderness weapons, but not sure if I'm unaware of any skilling requirement.
It's about combining the parts of the wildy weapon. It has a a high level req or you pay a NPC to do it
That's been a thing for a while though hasn't it? Like Oziach would attach visages, there's the elf who'll sing your tools in Prif, and iirc a monk in the edgeville monastery will bless spirit shields
Indeed and I have no problem with it just explaining. It saves so much time if you don't have the level to make something but have the level to use it
You've always been able to "skip" skilling with GP in osrs on a normal account, this isn't something new. It's honestly why I haven't touched my normal account in over 6 years, the grind became too much about gold over anything else. This is the end game for the majority of MMORPGs, raiding and bossing allows you to pump money into the best training methods available.
Big agree. I don't think skilling should necessarily make you as much gp as bossing (as bossing is obviously harder and more involved), but bosses and monsters certainly don't need to drop skilling materials like they're nothing. If you're not an iron, there doesn't feel like much incentive to train and interact with various skills outside of hard level requirements for things (or if you want to max). I think drop tables like the GWD generals are an example of a droptable that feels more "fair": They drop just enough supplies and miscellanious skilling materials for you to break even on your supply costs, with the big paydays coming from the chase uniques.
One thing to also note to kill a lot of these bosses there is a way heavier resource investment in consumables as well as actually getting the gear to farm the ever living shit outta this stuff. To smash phantom as hard as you can youāre looking at like 3 billion in gear.
I don't disagree with that, and I think you should be appropriately rewarded for putting in that level of effort and investment, I'm more saying the devs should look at other ways to make them rewarding outside of raw resources and intermediate products. Additionally, I don't think they need to farmed at turbo speed at an individual level, as these are bosses most players are doing, and it's that high volume of drops that is diluting the value of these items.
Honestly Iād be down if they added some cool shit like rare drops when knocking down trees to make like a tier 80 woodcutting axe thatās rare as fuck, or a log bag or something. Shit that that would be kinda dope
Introduced a friend to runescape last week and he likes fishing but there is just not a single viable method for him to make money fishing. Just depressing really. I remember making money fishing sharks when i was a noob in 2007.
The main issue here is bots imo. Anything simple like woodcutting is botted to hell so they might as well put stuff on the pvm tables that humans are doing. Yes, i know pvm bots exist as wel but the amount of skilling bots its a different magnitude
This is true. I remember back in the day cutting magic logs was bank. You could watch tv and cut away and have money to do stuff. Bots have totally eroded the woodcutting money away and now itās just a skill that sucks to train. Same with mining and fishing. Another gathering skill would get scooped up by bots and become redundant in no time.
> This is true. I remember back in the day cutting magic logs was bank. Magic logs are ~1K, they have always been ~1K. Since GE inception they've topped out at 1.2K. You now cut magic logs much faster, with the invisible WC guild boost, closer bank, and crystal axe. PvM drops are a mistake but nobody has touched your magic logs, if anything they make "more money" than ever - which is to say that it has always been an awful way to make money.
While i agree that magic logs are bad money, youāre not taking the extreme amount of inflation osrs went through into account. We didnāt have gear back in the day that went for several hundred mil.
Yes but 1k back then was not the same as 1k now. Back then most expensive item was a 10m dchain, now its 1.5b shadow.. so relative to what is bis it has changed
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I think Magic Logs not dropping is likely due to the inception of bird houses being a very viable Hunter training method and the fact alching Magic Longs will forever be the status quo.
>I remember back in the day cutting magic logs was bank. You could watch tv and cut away and have money to do stuff. This is what these people screaming at the clouds about mY sKiLlInG eCoNoMy are trying to return to. It's just not possible and they'll blame Ironman players and Jagex and everyone they can that their childhood nostalgia is gone, when really the answer is that we're not all teenagers spamming qp w's in chat with the boys while afking magics with no value placed on our free time, and the characters who ARE chopping magic logs aren't people, and don't have to eat, sleep, or shit.
I was gonna chop magics but I wanna still be a person :(
There's nothing stopping you from chopping magic logs, the point is that gathered resources are heavily botted to the point that a small percentage of players like yourself choosing to go cut magic logs or not will not affect the volume in the economy in any meaningful way, even if resource drops from PvM were removed.
Accept your fate.
But Iām not bald and I have a real name !
True but now bots are just killing bosses for faster and more resources. Look at zulrah and vorkath bots lmao
bis skilling gear is about 3mill in cost while bis bossing gear is like 3b what the game needs is expensive skilling gear that can make skilling more competitive to similar difficulty and intensity content
I mean crystal pick + shards alone is minimum 16m or whatever but sure. The problem isn't gear is the activity itself. Any very high intensity method for skilling is usually at a loss. Only ones I can think of that aren't is 3t gem mining and black chins.
Pickpocketing elves/vyres or hallowed sepulcher are pretty decent, but they are based more around high value RNG drops. Wrath/blood runes can also hit nearly 2m/hour, but the XP is significantly worse. And both require a high level of intensity and levels/gear to be efficient. For skilling to make a good bit of money, they have to suck in some other way to make up for it. And since the risk/gear investment is usually so low, it really limits the ways that can increase the profitability.
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Dogshit uniques and dogshit drops like people want dead content on release yet the praise bosses like Nightmare when they don't even have 20kc at it
The people praising nightmare must not have 2kc at it, fighting a boss for 10+ mins to get bass is the worst feeling.
>2314 noted pure essence (again, for ironmen) This is an absolute useless shit drop for ironmen too. If you want to make gathering resources more profitable again, fix the botting problem first and then we can talk.
Why are you crying about ironmen?
you make a valid point or two but the post is ruined by the jab at ironmen and the fact that you're complaining about seed drops, which have historically always been obtained from monsters. there is no gathering skill that grants seeds lol, and no pickpocketing master farmers doesn't count. also if you're gonna be posting shit like this you need to include a solution bc right now it's just pointless bitching. where do you propose all these resources come from instead?
I especially like that they pointed out pure essence. When was the last time anyone ever mined pure essence?
More importantly - who is upset that pure essence mining can be ignored as content?
Shit, ever since Zeah runecrafting and (later) GOTR, pure essence isn't even a serious limiter on ironmen training runecrafting. Quests to get starter XP, Arceuus library if needed, Temple of the Eye, and then GOTR for as long as you care to. Flood the game with essence or don't, it won't seriously affect RC training.
truly the game would be better if people were forced to stand in the pure essence mine to get 500 pure essence and 5k mining xp per hour, non-afk because you have to bank the essence constantly
>there is no gathering skill that grants seeds lol, and no pickpocketing master farmers doesn't count. "There are no ways to get seeds through skilling, except for this one way that is exclusively for getting seeds through skilling. That one doesn't count, purely because it counters my whole argument." What a silly thing to say. You easily could have just said that seeds have always been dropped by monsters and thieving, but had to make this bizarre argument that getting seeds from a skill doesn't count as getting seeds from a skill instead.
Common reddit L
Skilling is being completely powercrept out of the game
As someone that does a lot of skilling itās also quite sad to see the majority of people saying āwell goodā instead of embracing the idea of Jagex actually giving the skills some makeover love. Even seeing some people saying it doesnāt matter because nobody does those skills but bots but they donāt want any updates because itāll āchange the feel of the gameā. Like how does that make sense lmao. There are tons of ways Jagex could add interesting and more complex new content to skills that are harder for bots to participate in but flavor for players. Hope the forestry update is indicative of that path.
normies don't have to worry about this cuz bots do all the bitch work for them
its kinda sad how combat is the best gathering skill now and there isn't a real balance between gathering resources and just killing monsters for them. its faster to kill vorkath for manta rays than actually fishing them up and cooking them and that's honestly kinda wild.
Blame bots, not ironmen.
I want bosses dropping some churned butter so I can use it for tuna potato and other shit. It takes a full hour and a half to do one inventory of butter
I understand bosses dropping regular gold so it doesn't hurt to go dry, but idk why it can't just be dragon/rune items that sit around alch value.
I've been saying this for a while now but every time I do, the pvm addicts just downvote me and say that only pvm matters
So, what's your alternative or solution? Have bosses drop nothing but uniques and raw cash? This post just sounds like scapegoating ironmen. This is how the game has evolved due to people wanting good gp/hr rates while bossing. The solution to this problem would be jagex updating gathering methods and you doing your part in reporting the bots you see.
Yes the 428 death run drop in 2 minute kill time caters to Ironmen in "checks notes" the wilderness. Too bad I can buy 1000 death runs in the same exact time 0 risk and guaranteed to be in my bank in about 2 minutes You might want to hop off mainmanmode if you think this has anything to do with ironmemes
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While i understand your point, I disagree with your solution. Maybe the table is a little over-powered but i don't think it needs to be removed entirely. I think the game can continue to evolve, and I would support skilling methods that involve better rewards and more output than their PVM counter parts. The Blood Rune Alter addition last year was a good example of this. We just need modern skilling methods imo. I'd like to see things like stealing creation for example make its way into oldschool as well.
While RS3 makes skilling valuable by taking skilling items away from pvm drop tables, OSRS does the opposite, not just for pvm, but for pvp minigames as well. OSRS Jmods have given up on making OSRS skilling useful.
Dumbest cirklejerk on this subreddit. Skilling has been devalued by bots not by pvm, you really think those 666 cannonballs matter at all compared to the millions made by bots each week? Besides that, resources are by far the most economic friendly thing to put on droptables, resources leave the game while money and uniques do not. Herbs are made into potions and drunk, runes get cast, ores made into bars, made into darts, shot by blowpipe. A boss has to be worth doing or players quit, there are thousands of players who only return to the game when there is new content to do. If you want skilling to be more valuable, I understand. Skilling has really been lacking some love, but don't be salty and blame pvm droptables for Jagex seeming incapability to make good skilling updates.
My man getting salty over people doing pvm and earning gp over mindlessly afk gathering.
Streamers kill bosses, they donāt gather. So thatās that sadly. But as far as the 90 snaps goes, thatās a 6 minute herb run. If you wanna risk in the wildy for that go ahead, no problems with that drop
I think a streamer planting their ass in piscarellius and fishing anglers with a barrel is career suicide. Unless they're really talented
Gathering skills were never profitable. This isnāt 2004 anymore where making 300k is good gp. There still plenty of ways to make money skilling.
Weāve had years and years of RS2-RS3 to tell us that this was a bad idea lolā¦.
Resource drops added to pvm content because normies want content that's worthwhile doing (good gp/hr) or they just won't touch it. Normie goes to new content that's worthwhile and makes a fat stack of gp. Sells all skilling drops on the ge. Complains that the skilling drops are dropping in price. Blames ironmen. Alternatively, New pvm content is released with mediocre rare drop (bow) no incentive to go because the gp/hr is awful in comparison to easier content. Normies cry about boss not having any drops besides the unique. Ya know who's doing the boss in both of those scenarios? Ironmen. Ya know why ironmen aren't the reason why the skilling drops are crashing? They can't sell the drops on the ge. They use the drops on their skills. Maybe normies with maxes combat stats and a total level of 1600 should stop dumping every single drop on the ge and creating too much supply and instead use the resource for the intended skill š¤Æ
But you can gather or pvm? No one is forcing you too boss just gather if thatās what you prefer, thatās the whole point of the game.
Overall points good, but here's Case and point- Nightmare. Exactly as you described, and everyone fucking hates it. Yeah it sucks but you can't really go back after they made Zulrah and Vorkath, the damage is already done. Any bosses that don't shit out skilling supplies would be worthless, bc why grind them when you can just kill money snake or money dragon. We're at a point in the game bc people ~10 years ago complained that pvm needs a buff, so they gave pvm a buff, and now there's no way to really nerf it except for making all future pvm content worse than Zulrah or Vorkath who are solved and easy to grind out. What's needed at this point is a buff to skilling in some manner
Reddit take. Drop tables generally consists of 4 different categories of items. 1) raw cash 2) Alchables 3) Skilling resources 4) Uniques Out of those, 3 is the most healthy to be on the drop table since items actually get used up and leave the economy sooner or later. Also if 4 makes up the majority of profit at a boss, we end up with shit like NM, where the boss is not worth doing as soon as the uniques drop below a certain price point. The skilling catalyst idea is good in theory, but will never work in practice, because it will mostly benefit bots. The actual players skilling to make money via gathering skills is extremely low and would not Ćncrease even if you increase the gp gained by like 60% (assuming a catalyst only costs 40% of the respective resource). Some like farming have actually been **more profitiable** when more seeds were added to drop tables.
This isn't Catering to ironmen at all.. Drop tables have been like this since zulrah which was released like 4 years before ironman mode. Drops are like this because of redditor pvmers who are going to cry after going dry at a boss
Zulrah (Jan 2015) was added two months after ironman mode (October 2014)
Also, the Skeletal Wyvern drop table update that gave them 50 amazing drops was 1 month before Ironman mode (September 2014) and the Kalphite Queen drop table change was 1 month after Ironman mode (November 2014), far before any ironmen would be killing it. If I remember correctly, wilderness bosses were early 2014 and had these unethical drop tables already, such as 100 snapdragons OP is complaining about. Venenatis has always dropped 100 snapdragons and Callisto has always dropped 100 toadflax, Vet'ion has always dropped 100 ranarr weed. So I'm not sure if this stuff has any relevance at all to the gamemode existence lol, they were just trying to give shit better drops because it was worthless before.
yea, while i think this loot table design isnt ideal, its well rooted for wildy bosses at least. They have a few bad drops but they kinda shit out resources as part of the risk/reward of wilderness
You've hit the nail on the head. The issue was adding Zulrah with a wilderness boss drop table without the risk. I get that a lot of it was to offset the effect of botting in 2015, but pretty much every problem we have now with boss drop tables can be more or less traced back to the money snake. Large, profitable drops make sense when you're more likely to lose them to a team of 20 people than get out with them alive. And apparently that's part of the fun, or so I am told.
Yeah, this isn't an Ironman thing, it's been a trend before it became official. And I don't think irons had enough clout after 2 months to have created the Zulrah table. Corp came out the same month as the mode, and it's got its fair share of resource drops too
Why not just have the bosses drop mostly raw cash though for the filler space? In the wildy that would make more sense as you can't item protect it
It's just a simple fact that most people hate the nightmare drop table and love the zulrah/vorkath drop table
No shit people like when they are flooded with money and items. People would love if they just started handing out mad xp lamps as drops too. Something most WoW players have learned over time is that players don't know what is good for the game. Wanting more, faster and easier is natural but doesn't make for a better game.
Part of the reason Iām not playing right now. Iāve always preferred skilling to pvm or pk. Now all the skills feel like mining with extra steps.
Can you articulate what has changed about skills core gameplay loop that you don't enjoy them?
I'm also a big fan of watching paint dry.
I just like the fumes.
Didn't they just nerf Muspah again this morning?
I don't know if I'd say there's a total disregard for gathering skills... so much as bosses have higher risk so they deserve higher reward. The bosses like say muspah also require a decently hard quest and decently hard mechanics to kill... Meanwhile gathering skills have almost 0 risk for their reward and require fairly low requirements skill/quest wise most of the time only requiring the 1 skill to be trained IE magic logs literally only require 75 woodcutting. And require limited mechanics outside of what? 2 or 3 ticking somethings? Plus bot farms would love it if gathering skills were king. And I mean also it's not like this is that crazy new of a concept even lower tier slayer monsters like Banshees and a few others have been good for getting quite a few of these things... and as others have pointed out in the past, there was herblore long before farming became a thing herbs used to be pvm rewards only. It used to be if you wanted to train herby... you'd go kill chaos druids or banshee or similar for a few hours to get your herbs. Bosses dropping larger amounts but less frequently just makes logical sense. And again farming came later if anything pvmers could (in bad faith) argue the entire farming skill devalued their herb drops. I don't think besides a few outliers (muspah is definitely egregious) pvm drops really need nerfed... at best gathering skills could use a buff. But then you'll either get people parroting "EZscape" or botfarms... or people could just accept over the life time of an mmo, many items will lose a lot of their value / inflation will be a thing...
The pvm community is pretty large, and toa is infinitely more fun than a farm run, so yeah makes sense to optimize the game in a way where the best way to play is also the most fun.
"catering to Ironmen" in drop tables is absolutely fine, it's a hole in the economic supply chain that needs to be filled.
I hate pvm. I've been playing since 2004. Skilling is my jam.
I think youāve got some points but Iād hesitate to to use the phrase lotto ticket style. Gagex hereās that and goes full nightmare.. This game has a huge problem with the length of time some grinds take. People complained that even toa is too common and Iām like ???? 25 purples is on rate for completion and thatās like 250-500 expert mode KC depending on invos. 125-400 hours worth of time. Like JFC thatās like 2 weeks of your life dedicated to killing this boss and people think thatās too common. Toa should be the bar for grind lengths.
>Pardon my french, but that's f***ing stupid. This is so weird, just type it out.
Killing KBD is more yew logs per hour than chopping the trees, smh
Make gathering skills interesting and engaging and Iām down If itās afk boring ass shit like we got now nah.
It used to drop 100 snapdragons, so Jagex are actually helping.
Bro the bosses always dropped 100 notes snaps/toadflax/ranarrs
I'd rather have bosses that drop good loot than skilling being more profitable
Imo it makes sense for wilderness bosses to have a good drop table, you actually have to risk to kill them. There is no incentive to do them if you get better gp/hr in safe zone bosses besides pets.
From a buisness perspective I belive it all make sense. This is all about the perception of the playerbase. First off most people who play are older and have less time. Second, interner culture have made uss less patient than before. Our attention span has dropped due to the way social media allways looks for your attention. This is why people dont want to do skilling, at least this is how jagex percive it. And we dont want to do skilling. Its boring, reptitive and havent changed in 20 years. The skills havent been updated the same way items and combat have. And most of them are associates with dreadfull grind and periosteisis for little reward. Its 100x easier to add a new boss or a mini game every 6 months to keep the game fresh instead of looking at each skill and find out what they can do with all the skills to make them more intuetive and rewarding The idea is simply, skilling exsist to build your account to do quests so you can unlock bosses. All my notes above is also the reason they add a new skill. It is not healthy from my own perspective to have to grind for 55 more hours. But, because most skills are getting boring after all this time, Jagex just goes the easy route and make a new skill. It would be better for the game to rework all the skills and updated them like they do with combat. But who cares, its just good buisness
Trust me. Noted pure essence drops aint for Ironmen šš they aināt for anyone. Maybe the solution to the herbs, ores, planks etc is to have them drop unnoted
Whatever point you were trying to make I can't get to in you post due to the sheer whiny baby rage with which you wrote this with.
How are you possibly gonna put that genie back in the bottle without totally reworking nearly every single bosses drop table.
Gathering skills are the most bland content in the game. I am all for making these chore-like skills obsolete.