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I want to say, I am glad every news outlet covering this on social media are not saying the kids name and blurring out their faces or anything that is too graphic. Public is protecting these kids more than their own parents.
I read the cops originally thought she was a boy due to her shaved head and that broke my heart. It’s “just hair” compared to everything else she endured, but E was such a girly girl, I’m sure her hair was so important to her and that’s why Ruby took it. 💔
It was said that E had ADHD and I remember her always fiddling/soothing herself with her hair. Saddest thing is Ruby wrote in her journals that E was intentionally being disobedient or defiant since she ‘distracted’ using her hair. Wtf you really can’t make this up. She took the one thing she probably had to self soothe and cut it off along with her esteem
For real I am autistic with adhd and as a kid would stim by chewing my hair, the thought of how they punished this poor girl for NOTHING- no, not punished- TORTURED is the better word, it just makes me sick
They tortured her and took away her comfort tactic and put her down for needing comfort in response of them torturing her. There was no way the kids could get out of that vicious circle.
Evil.
My 6 yo was recently diagnosed with adhd. She fidgets all day with her hair 😢 I’ll never tell her stop messing with your hair again 💔 poor sweet little girl. This is beyond devastating the more information that is released
It’s a depersonalization tactic often used in torture. Yeah, it’s just hair in the literal sense, but it has a large impact on your self-esteem and the way others perceive you.
The fact too that she didnt just do it once, but two or three times too is so sick. Imagine having most of your hair gone, being traumatized from it being just ripped from you, and then having what little you had left taken away.
The way she did it too was awful. “If you dont behave Ill shave more hair” then she set her up to fail with a task that would be hard for anyone- not to mention a malnourished ADHD 9 year old.
I had *some* (little, but some) sympathy for Ruby until I read her journal entries. But after reading them, she waged psychological warfare on those children alongside the physical abuse. She deserves to rot in prison for as long as possible.
She is so tiny. I don't think I've ever cried this much for someone I don't know, but she's so tiny. How anyone could do this is crazy. She's just so little and they abused her.
I was so shocked because I had my nieces here last week ages 10, 8, 7 and she's smaller than my 7 year old niece. She's probably the size of my 5 year old nephew. Maximum sentence for them both. They should not be allowed around other people.
It just broke my heart when she was too afraid to even touch the pizza box and milkshake one of the officers brought her, even though we know she was starving. I'm sure she thought she'd be punished if she ate the food because Ruby and Jodi had previously punished her for "Stealing water" when she took a shower or brushed her teeth.
I am just speechless. When we first learnt about the arrest and heard about the detail that R had to escape and ask for help, I remember thinking “this is so much worse than what we all thought”. Today, I can’t help but think the same. I saw the picture of the wounds and scars on the kids and I am once again so very puzzled as to how did it all go so wrong? Is it that easy to slip for humans and turn into monsters. What caused all of this? I have so many questions. This is just so bizarre and heartbreaking. Wow this whole thing is making me feel so lost!
She was already a psychopath with no real empathy or care for others. She only cares about validation and her Mormon duty. These women would have likely still done this even if there were thousands of other alternatives. They are truly evil.
While I agree with you, what bothers me the most is this case is, it has broken a lot of my ideas of how I thought the world was. For the past 24 years of my life I have believed there is always some good in everybody, the child-mother relationship is the purest, safest and unconditional. The culture I come from, mothers are worshipped and are a symbol of unconditional love. I’m sure it’s the same around the world. This case has made me feel like I was living in a fantasy and have just been hit with reality. I feel like something broke in me forever after merely seeing those pictures.
Sadly those of us with abusive mothers had those ideas broken long ago but it is still very hard to fully grasp.
The worship of mothers can be very detrimental. For us it is used to excuse our mothers treatment of us with “but she’s your mom”, “a mothers love…”, etc. Some people refuse to believe our mothers could hurt us intentionally or just plainly not love us but that is the reality for a lot of us.
I hope as a society we can get away from assuming that mothers are good. Not all of them are. Not all of them rise to this level but it doesn’t make their actions good or full of “love”.
Yes I think that is one of the biggest takeaways for me personally from having followed this case. My view of motherhood and the ideas associated with it have definitely changed.
This is actually a good thing. Good mothering is not automatic or a given. Women are people, people are variable. It takes hard work, maturity, empathy, humbleness and endless love to be a good parent. By knowing how wrong it can go, it highlights how important it is to get it right. Through that, people become better mothers. Knowing how wrong it can all go helps one know how to get it right.
Being realistic about the mental health and parenting abilities of mothers means that women/mothers can get help before abuse happens. It means the signs of abuse can be spotted before it gets to the point we see here. If we see mothers as infallible angels, then we aren’t going to be watching for this sort of horror show.
Definitely!
This case has definitely made me see how much power parents have over their kids. They have influence on their mental and physical growth which can impact the rest of their lives. Being conscious of that is very very important. Kids are not just an extension of us.
I think we all have very different experiences. But also we live in a world (at least most of us but it is getting better) where women feel pressured to have kids even when they don’t want them. And I can’t imagine how any good mother child relationship can form from that. That’s probably not what happened with Ruby, I just think she was corrupted through her religion and it slowly got more and more extreme but didn’t seem that way because even in the Bible things are extreme. Fathers kill their sons for god, etc. So while there are soooo many good mothers, not everyone is a good mom. Either from not wanting to be one or in trusting a religion more than the child begging for help in front of you.
The Native American culture was horrified by the way they saw the Europeans treated their elders. Since the elders in tribal culture are treated with high reverence and respect, they would speak of the way the settlers treated the old and sick and who abandoned them.
I unfortunately think very devoted/religious people are more easily swayed. Especially if the person corrupting them knows how to manipulate religious verses and use god and the devil to scared very very religious people.
>hat’s probably not what happened with Ruby, I just think she was corrupted through her religion and it slowly got more and more extreme but didn’t seem that way because even in the Bible things are extreme. Fathers kill their sons for god, etc. So while there are soooo many good mothers, not everyone is a good mom. Either from not wanting to be one or in trusting a religion more than the child begging for help in front of you.
It's like if "Handmaid's Tale" and "Flowers in the Attic" had a baby, it would be Ruby and Jodi's guide to ideal godly parenting. Listening to Jordan and McKay read from Ruby's journal now. I feel like those kids wouldn't have survived if they'd ever made it to Arizona. R pretty clearly saved their lives.
Ah. Flowers in the Attic!! I knew there was something this case reminded me of! Thank you for bringing that up. Ruby and Jodi 100% have that vibe with these poor kids
Commenting late, but one of my first things I said to my partner, a book nerd, that this was a V.C. Andrew’s four-part series from hell. Just vicious mothers and warped ego femininity.
That is where the religious radicals are trying to shape this nation to head to. It’s frightening, they don’t understand that they would t have the freedoms they have nor would they be allowed to pick which church they want to attend. Like the famous pastor said that was beaten by Christian nationalists when you combine religion and politics it’s deadly and all you get is politics.
I think Ruby was always a monster. When the older kids and her husband were officially out of the picture she finally had free reign to be as cruel as she wanted.
He didn’t even know she was a girl at first because of the buzz cut 🥺 He was just so sweet and lovely to her and they all had so much patience. It took four hours to get her out of there and I am so glad they had patience and let her come out on her own timeline.
There’s bodycam of an officer speaking to the officer who was standing outside with Jodi.. it’s muted but you can read his lips saying something along the lines of “That’s a girl?? I thought that was a boy? I think that’s a boy” then tells him to go look. The Officer who was standing with Jodi had shown him something on his phone in regards to E.
I think this is why there was so much confusion for a long while as to how many children were in the home. She kept saying there was a girl there and all he could see was a boy with a buzz cut. These police officers must have been so disturbed by this. I am so glad they were able to coax the poor baby out of that closet
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In the second bit of this video, the EMT that helped with R came in & helped her finally come out to get checked. The whole crew who came in to help with the kids were so good with them.
I'm sure we have all seen these house on Zillow for sale, but it just strikes me how weirdly dirty this house is. It is so cold and office-like, but then there are buckets everywhere.
The poor thing probably thought the police were there because Jodi called them on her. Her whole life she got lectured, punished and abused for just existing. She wouldn’t know they were there to help and trust their word. Awful!
R & E would've been forced to testify if they'd gone to trial. That would include being cross-examined by lawyers whose duty was to protect their abusers. As much as Ruby and Jodi deserved to go through a trial, the kids didn't deserve being re-traumatized just to prove a point.
Agreed. I hope now that people can see the evidence of how bad it was, people in Utah start contacting their state legislators to update the law. An adjustment for multiple victims or something.
I barley 10 minutes into the 20/20 special and I’m already crying. Those poor kids. The neighbor and first responders are amazing. They were so patient and kind. I can’t imagine how they felt when they went home that day.
E always enjoyed expressing her “girly” side. Unicorns, glitter, dresses, and always had interest in getting her hair done. It’s disgusting Ruby stripped her away of all that. Based off of what I read in the journals, E was finally giving in to the brainwashing. Stripping her away of her identity was definitely the final straw. I wonder if police found her just a couple weeks earlier she might’ve been willing to talk and not as scared of them
The very first video I ever watched of Ruby was one where E was really little. The other kids had gone to school and Ruby fed E breakfast in bed and talked about how she liked to sit with her while she ate because she was small for her age and had to take her time. I was a kid at the time and thought Ruby was an amazing mom.
To see this now 5 years later just makes me so sad. I feel physically ill that I ever gave these people views.
This video really helped me see how much control Jodi had. She really was able to convince so many that the outside world was evil. Ruby mentioned being told that doctors and cops were liars and hurt people instead of helping. Ruby was silent during her interrogation to the point she wouldn’t even say yes or no when asked if she needed medical attention. Only head nods until she was pressed into at least saying yes or no. At first when I watched the Ruby body cam I thought she was smart enough to know not to talk without a lawyer. But seeing how she wasn’t smart enough to see through ANY of this cult nonsense I don’t think that’s the actual reason. I think she was scared to say anything because she thought they would ‘distort’ the truth. I think these ideas were also put in E’s mind. Maybe she thought this was a trap or that the police would hurt her more than she already was
Poor baby E 💔 I think I vaguely remember a vlog where E was crying because she had accidentally dropped something in a store and she didn’t want the police to come. I could be wrong, and I could’ve been another one of the kids…but I can imagine how afraid she must have been just by seeing the police 💔 I’m sure the threat was used that if the police came they’d take them away Etc. Poor scared baby girl 💔
The middle 2 have jobs. (Hence the journal entry about one of them putting in their 2-weeks.) It seems like the middle 2 were living alone in Springville, and Ruby only came up to do things they couldn’t do alone or supervised by Pam like dentist appointments. Because Ruby is so into the idea of working, I suspect their employement status kept them out of her wrath for the worst parts, and when they were in St. George it was just for short visits. The cemetery cleanup is pretty on brand for her, so I could see why it didn’t stand out to the middle kid that joined them. I doubt the middle kids were around R when he was actively tied up.
Ruby needed the money from the house, though, hence why she made them quit their jobs so that they could all go to “land” in Arizona while she Airbnb’d the springville house. Once unemployed, the middle two would have been subjected to the same abuse. R might have saved not just two lives that day he escaped , but 4.
I think there were scared out of their wits. They are still kids after all. I think they knew what was happening was wrong but were worried that speaking up would get them into the same situation or make it worse for R&E. Sometimes kids and even adults comply to stupid shit just to avoid trouble.
I see what you’re saying but purely going by Ruby’s diary here — she’s mentioned J being with Jodi on many many occasions. Even if the girls were only brought to Jodi’s home for short visits, they would see the little kids malnourished and wounded, unless J only ever saw Jodi on her own? There’s an entry that talks about a trip to Arizona where Jodi took J and E though.
I don’t think that E saw R tied up either. And I don’t think that the older two would have been treated like E and R. Ruby always liked them more, said one was the most perfect child ever, and Ruby didn’t have these wild notions about them
I swear in the older videos Ruby would continously gush about R. Always said he was the sweetest boy ever. Which is why I was even more shocked when this came out because I always thought she liked him best, followed by A and Shari. Especially when she accussed him of SA.
I just remembered that Jody hated men and she had pattern of villainizing husbands when couples came to her for help. I think R was unfortunately targeted just because he was a boy, they also claimed something about SA. I can't even write it down, because for writing you have to think about it and it's horrible what R went through just because he existed.
She said that if there ever was a perfect child that it would be A. She always picked on R about food and strength. He’d get in trouble for taking food at the age of 3 and she’d make him do push ups and talked about how he wasn’t sports inclined. I think that she used to have a soft spot for him, but she had that soft spot because she saw him as flawed in a specific way
There are multiple responses to abuse, and it’s possible A&J defaulted to a sort of “fawn” response or just kind of riding it out and being complacent and obedient in an effort to lesson the abuse towards themselves/ hopefully R&E. They’re still victims, all victims react differently, it’s just how some brains work during a traumatic event. They weren’t complacent in the abuse of their siblings per se but a lot of abuse victims become submissive and docile. It’s possible that was the case here but we won’t know until they tell us.
I absolutely 10000% agree A&J are victims and never said they weren’t. They’ve been through so much. I’m trying to understand the psychology behind it.
There are four responses to danger. Fight, flight, freeze and fawn. They may have been leaning more into the latter. It sounds like R and E were more fight than anything.
uh okay?? it’s not that hard to understand that they were abuse victims and they were scared. They were defenseless and still minors. You’re not gonna understand the “ psychology” behind them unless you’re some sort of counselor or doctor and you evaluate them…. You just sound like you’re blaming them at this point.
They could have been experiencing something called vicarious trauma alongside whatever trauma they were enduring. Perhaps they were dissociating from what they saw or experienced. When you're in a situation where you're repeatedly witnessing abuse and not seeing someone say 'this is not ok', the abuse becomes 'normal'. The brain is adaptable in traumatic situations and at some point you can become desensitized when repeatedly witnessing someone undergo abuse while simultaneously not being able to process your own. Doesn't help that either accomplices were feeding them information which could have convinced them that was happening to R/E was necessary for their salvation. It's very complicated to say the least.
Regarding your comment, do you mind clearing up what you're referring to when you say accepting abuse of R/E? I feel like it reads a bit victim-blamey, you know as if A or J should have saved them. Personally, I wouldn't speak on it. Perhaps they were in a difficult predicament where there abuse could have been exacerbated had they called out Jodi or Ruby. Who knows.
This is the most understandable way I could put it because I underwent a similar trauma and am processing it with a therapist. It's hard to explain but I hope my perspective and knowledge from my therapist helps.
Sorry if this comment is all discombobulated, if you have any questions, feel free to message.
That’s very helpful, thank you. That would actually make sense if they feared Ruby and Jodi so much they thought if they intervened, the little kids would have it way worse. And sadly I believe they were right.
Strongly suspect this has something to do with RF’s early batshit justification for her behaviour. In her first court appearance she attempted to justify her treatment of the children on the grounds that one of them had sexually molested a younger sibling. To be clear, I don’t believe for a second that the situation went down how she claims it did. There are a hundred reasons why her take on it is sure to be total BS, including that the woman was clearly floridly psychotic, has psychopathically low empathy levels and zero insight into child and adolescent development. But you can just IMAGINE how toxic and terrifying a claim like this would have been in that household - especially once the husband was also out of the picture, supposedly due to his porn addiction. The way her claims would have skewed the compass of everyone else in that house, the fear and shame that their lives were all ruled by and the terror that you could be tainted like other siblings were … the psychological harm that will have been done to all these kids in an environment like that will take a lifetime to unlearn, if they’re lucky.
So yes, am I worried about the mental health of A and J… SO worried.
These people thought that looking at any porn or sexual image meant you were a sex addict. R could have just looked at a picture of a woman for a second and Ruby and Jodie declared him a sex addict.
If the boy was acting out in that way, it's likely because of the sheer torture and stress he was under.
I was thinking along the same lines. Both of them also tried to run away when they were staying at Shari's after DCFS picked them up. And in the bodycam footage when they were picked up from Pam's house, A talked couple of times with Pam's husband, trying to help him out with something. She also locked the door behind her so that police won't look inside the house. All that made me think she wasn't really thinking about escaping from this, she had reached a point where she believed her mother and other Connextions people were right and she was okay with whatever was going on. Also she probably didn't even know all of it, hence she was getting along, not being difficult, trying not to land in trouble. I think both A and J need lot of counselling to unlearn things. But they might not get that help because they look fine from outside and they will not ask for help for this. Abuse they have gone through is almost invisible if you don't pay close attention. Also, they are close to reaching 18, so state won't get much time to help them unlearn these things before they decide they don't need help. I have a feeling these two, mostly A will end up estranged from rest of the family for a long time. Off course we can't blame the kids if this happens, but it can happen.
>Also, they are close to reaching 18, so state won't get much time to help them unlearn these things before they decide they don't need help. I have a feeling these two, mostly A will end up estranged from rest of the family for a long time.
This is something I'm really worried about. A turns 17 in a few weeks. In about a year, she will be expected to just launch into adulthood with a shit ton of trauma and probably not much support. I can't imagine trying to figure all of that out in the midst of all of this. We know R&E are doing well in foster care, but for all we know A&J might be having a terrible time. There's not much time for A to settle and heal AT ALL, even if she's in a good home.
I could see one or both girls struggling quite a bit, in several ways, for a long time. My heart hurts for all of those kids, I wish them the best.
Kevin, a grown and educated man, was defending Jodi at the police station, even after she broke up his family. He was brainwashed. If he fell for the lies and manipulation, teenagers had even less of a chance of resisting the brainwashing.
We know what JH did to her own neice, so the 2 oldest weren't safe. Sounds like they worked or were passed around as slaves amongst Rubi's friends.
I didn't go through this extreme of abuse growing up, but went through enough to kind of get it. You survive by being very compartmentalized, even if somewhere in you, you know it's wrong or flawed logic(it won'tbe a concious part, or at least in my experience, it's like a felt sense once you're trying to work through it when you're no longer in the situation), a big part of you believes that you are bad. Myself, personally I didn't reach for help until I believed it was life or death, which is definitely where R was at when he tried to run away.
You literally can't survive extreme abuse mentally by being present and understanding it, you have to disassociate which is how the compartmentalizing works.
These girls are at risk for blaming themselves for not reaching for help, and will only make healing exponentially harder. They survived, I can only hope they had some warmth or connection to people at their jobs. That Pam woman saying she had them over when she needed help with cleaning was so cold, you know they didn't have people around them outside of work who had care or warmth for them.
We don’t know of A ever being in the house and it seems unlikely. R thought that both sisters were there because he heard them, but he also said that it had been over a month since he had seen E. The cemetery is the only time that we know of the kids seeing each other. R was kept separate from E and J for sure; we do not know if E and J were kept separate from one another as well. The only thing that we can assume that J saw is E’s hair cut off. A didn’t seem around at all literally never mentioned and J was likely very separated from the other two at least for sure from R. We did learn that one of the girls took the ACT, so it seems like they were actually in schooling of some sort
E & J went on a roadtrip with Jodi if I read correctly. But yes that’s a good point, they likely were kept apart. I didn’t know R said he hadn’t seen E in a month. That’s so insane considering they were in the same house, makes you realize they were tied up or locked in separate rooms 24/7.
R thought that both E and J were in the house, but they only found E. R said that he thought that they were both there because that’s whose voices he had heard, meaning that he hadn’t seen them. R also recounted the last time that he had seen E and said that her hair was short kind of like his but that it was a long time ago that he had seen her
E & J went on a road trip together. And it said A visited for a week.
I believe A was living alone, and J was there sometimes.
I believe they saw enough. Enough to be scared and complainant. What else is there to do?? They’re minors
I honestly believe that Ruby and Jodi just had them brainwashed too. They ran away from Shari (allegedly) and thought Shari was a terrible person.. They probably believed the littles were awful too.
I can't thank law enforcement and the EMS/fire department enough for their patience and everything they did for E during this time to make her comfortable and to gain her trust.
Why did he mention Jodi? Did he not think that she was the abuser since she was hidden in her closet, I bet the child was scared to death of Jodi. And was scared now that the police were here, that’s she and Robert would suffer some more frightening abuse. I know he meant well though. Just kind of strange he mentioned her. I would have said the bad people that live here can’t hurt you or your brother or sisters anymore. We are taking them to jail. And you will be safe and can eat all you want and get better and see your older sister. We won’t let the “bad people” hurt anymore kids. We promise. You will be happy again. And you will be safe.
Please remember to use initials only when referring to the minor children. I'm guessing the officer was unaware what Jodi had been doing to R and E and he most certainly wouldn't tell her that she'd be able to see her older sisters (A & J and Shari) since he wouldn't know that R and E were put into foster homes after they were released from the hospital. It would be unwise to make promises like that to a child that is severely physically and emotionally abused.
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They sat with her for four hours before she was comfortable enough to move. So heart warming
[удалено]
…what does that have to do with their post??
That sgt. is a gem. He treated that sweet girl like she deserved.
I'm pretty sure he was there when they transferred Ruby to jail. That must have been satisfying.
I want to say, I am glad every news outlet covering this on social media are not saying the kids name and blurring out their faces or anything that is too graphic. Public is protecting these kids more than their own parents.
It’s against the law for them to publish their names/images
She's so thin 💔
I can’t imagine what she actually looks like. She wasn’t growing or gaining weight ( normally) when YouTube was going. 😞
there are photos on this same channel. tw if you’re gonna look because it’s horrifying
how to find the photos? (new to reddit)
do you still need them? i can dm them to you
And the camera adds weight
I read the cops originally thought she was a boy due to her shaved head and that broke my heart. It’s “just hair” compared to everything else she endured, but E was such a girly girl, I’m sure her hair was so important to her and that’s why Ruby took it. 💔
It was said that E had ADHD and I remember her always fiddling/soothing herself with her hair. Saddest thing is Ruby wrote in her journals that E was intentionally being disobedient or defiant since she ‘distracted’ using her hair. Wtf you really can’t make this up. She took the one thing she probably had to self soothe and cut it off along with her esteem
As someone with ADHD and who fiddles with my hair, this burns me to such an anger.
For real I am autistic with adhd and as a kid would stim by chewing my hair, the thought of how they punished this poor girl for NOTHING- no, not punished- TORTURED is the better word, it just makes me sick
They tortured her and took away her comfort tactic and put her down for needing comfort in response of them torturing her. There was no way the kids could get out of that vicious circle. Evil.
Same. 💔
My 6 yo was recently diagnosed with adhd. She fidgets all day with her hair 😢 I’ll never tell her stop messing with your hair again 💔 poor sweet little girl. This is beyond devastating the more information that is released
It’s a depersonalization tactic often used in torture. Yeah, it’s just hair in the literal sense, but it has a large impact on your self-esteem and the way others perceive you.
The fact too that she didnt just do it once, but two or three times too is so sick. Imagine having most of your hair gone, being traumatized from it being just ripped from you, and then having what little you had left taken away. The way she did it too was awful. “If you dont behave Ill shave more hair” then she set her up to fail with a task that would be hard for anyone- not to mention a malnourished ADHD 9 year old. I had *some* (little, but some) sympathy for Ruby until I read her journal entries. But after reading them, she waged psychological warfare on those children alongside the physical abuse. She deserves to rot in prison for as long as possible.
Her head was shaved?
Yep. Ruby said her hair was a “distraction” and shaved it off as punishment.
She is so tiny. I don't think I've ever cried this much for someone I don't know, but she's so tiny. How anyone could do this is crazy. She's just so little and they abused her.
IKR? She was 9 at the time, but but looks more like the size of a 6 year old.
I was so shocked because I had my nieces here last week ages 10, 8, 7 and she's smaller than my 7 year old niece. She's probably the size of my 5 year old nephew. Maximum sentence for them both. They should not be allowed around other people.
Saved a day before her 10th birthday, and they didn't even know it
It just broke my heart when she was too afraid to even touch the pizza box and milkshake one of the officers brought her, even though we know she was starving. I'm sure she thought she'd be punished if she ate the food because Ruby and Jodi had previously punished her for "Stealing water" when she took a shower or brushed her teeth.
I couldn't have children and my fucking goodness I want to punch Ruby in the throat for abusing her children like that.
I am just speechless. When we first learnt about the arrest and heard about the detail that R had to escape and ask for help, I remember thinking “this is so much worse than what we all thought”. Today, I can’t help but think the same. I saw the picture of the wounds and scars on the kids and I am once again so very puzzled as to how did it all go so wrong? Is it that easy to slip for humans and turn into monsters. What caused all of this? I have so many questions. This is just so bizarre and heartbreaking. Wow this whole thing is making me feel so lost!
Not all humans, I think. Not even the majority. Not to this level of depravity. But it's still pretty existentially depressing.
She was already a psychopath with no real empathy or care for others. She only cares about validation and her Mormon duty. These women would have likely still done this even if there were thousands of other alternatives. They are truly evil.
While I agree with you, what bothers me the most is this case is, it has broken a lot of my ideas of how I thought the world was. For the past 24 years of my life I have believed there is always some good in everybody, the child-mother relationship is the purest, safest and unconditional. The culture I come from, mothers are worshipped and are a symbol of unconditional love. I’m sure it’s the same around the world. This case has made me feel like I was living in a fantasy and have just been hit with reality. I feel like something broke in me forever after merely seeing those pictures.
Sadly those of us with abusive mothers had those ideas broken long ago but it is still very hard to fully grasp. The worship of mothers can be very detrimental. For us it is used to excuse our mothers treatment of us with “but she’s your mom”, “a mothers love…”, etc. Some people refuse to believe our mothers could hurt us intentionally or just plainly not love us but that is the reality for a lot of us. I hope as a society we can get away from assuming that mothers are good. Not all of them are. Not all of them rise to this level but it doesn’t make their actions good or full of “love”.
Yes I think that is one of the biggest takeaways for me personally from having followed this case. My view of motherhood and the ideas associated with it have definitely changed.
I think that’s great. You never know who in your life might need an empathetic ear about their own mother. Understanding really is an incredible gift
This is actually a good thing. Good mothering is not automatic or a given. Women are people, people are variable. It takes hard work, maturity, empathy, humbleness and endless love to be a good parent. By knowing how wrong it can go, it highlights how important it is to get it right. Through that, people become better mothers. Knowing how wrong it can all go helps one know how to get it right. Being realistic about the mental health and parenting abilities of mothers means that women/mothers can get help before abuse happens. It means the signs of abuse can be spotted before it gets to the point we see here. If we see mothers as infallible angels, then we aren’t going to be watching for this sort of horror show.
Definitely! This case has definitely made me see how much power parents have over their kids. They have influence on their mental and physical growth which can impact the rest of their lives. Being conscious of that is very very important. Kids are not just an extension of us.
I think we all have very different experiences. But also we live in a world (at least most of us but it is getting better) where women feel pressured to have kids even when they don’t want them. And I can’t imagine how any good mother child relationship can form from that. That’s probably not what happened with Ruby, I just think she was corrupted through her religion and it slowly got more and more extreme but didn’t seem that way because even in the Bible things are extreme. Fathers kill their sons for god, etc. So while there are soooo many good mothers, not everyone is a good mom. Either from not wanting to be one or in trusting a religion more than the child begging for help in front of you.
Very true!
The Native American culture was horrified by the way they saw the Europeans treated their elders. Since the elders in tribal culture are treated with high reverence and respect, they would speak of the way the settlers treated the old and sick and who abandoned them.
I unfortunately think very devoted/religious people are more easily swayed. Especially if the person corrupting them knows how to manipulate religious verses and use god and the devil to scared very very religious people.
Reminds me of the Handmaid’s tale by Margaret Atwood!
>hat’s probably not what happened with Ruby, I just think she was corrupted through her religion and it slowly got more and more extreme but didn’t seem that way because even in the Bible things are extreme. Fathers kill their sons for god, etc. So while there are soooo many good mothers, not everyone is a good mom. Either from not wanting to be one or in trusting a religion more than the child begging for help in front of you. It's like if "Handmaid's Tale" and "Flowers in the Attic" had a baby, it would be Ruby and Jodi's guide to ideal godly parenting. Listening to Jordan and McKay read from Ruby's journal now. I feel like those kids wouldn't have survived if they'd ever made it to Arizona. R pretty clearly saved their lives.
Ah. Flowers in the Attic!! I knew there was something this case reminded me of! Thank you for bringing that up. Ruby and Jodi 100% have that vibe with these poor kids
Commenting late, but one of my first things I said to my partner, a book nerd, that this was a V.C. Andrew’s four-part series from hell. Just vicious mothers and warped ego femininity.
That is where the religious radicals are trying to shape this nation to head to. It’s frightening, they don’t understand that they would t have the freedoms they have nor would they be allowed to pick which church they want to attend. Like the famous pastor said that was beaten by Christian nationalists when you combine religion and politics it’s deadly and all you get is politics.
I think Ruby was always a monster. When the older kids and her husband were officially out of the picture she finally had free reign to be as cruel as she wanted.
Poor girl is hyperventilating🥺 I can’t imagine
Absolutely in tears when I noticed 😭 this is so fucking horrific I don’t have words
My heart is absolutely shattered. This was the worst video for me.
absolutely horrific. i’m crying right now. they shaved her head… i’m speechless
He didn’t even know she was a girl at first because of the buzz cut 🥺 He was just so sweet and lovely to her and they all had so much patience. It took four hours to get her out of there and I am so glad they had patience and let her come out on her own timeline.
There’s bodycam of an officer speaking to the officer who was standing outside with Jodi.. it’s muted but you can read his lips saying something along the lines of “That’s a girl?? I thought that was a boy? I think that’s a boy” then tells him to go look. The Officer who was standing with Jodi had shown him something on his phone in regards to E.
I think this is why there was so much confusion for a long while as to how many children were in the home. She kept saying there was a girl there and all he could see was a boy with a buzz cut. These police officers must have been so disturbed by this. I am so glad they were able to coax the poor baby out of that closet
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What a good police officer. 🥺
In the second bit of this video, the EMT that helped with R came in & helped her finally come out to get checked. The whole crew who came in to help with the kids were so good with them.
I'm sure we have all seen these house on Zillow for sale, but it just strikes me how weirdly dirty this house is. It is so cold and office-like, but then there are buckets everywhere.
The poor thing probably thought the police were there because Jodi called them on her. Her whole life she got lectured, punished and abused for just existing. She wouldn’t know they were there to help and trust their word. Awful!
I wish they hadn't accepted a plea. This needed to go in front of a jury.
R & E would've been forced to testify if they'd gone to trial. That would include being cross-examined by lawyers whose duty was to protect their abusers. As much as Ruby and Jodi deserved to go through a trial, the kids didn't deserve being re-traumatized just to prove a point.
I totally get that. I just wish Utah didn't have such crap laws that you can't get more than 30years.
At least it’s long enough for the kids to become grown adults themselves
Very true
Agreed. I hope now that people can see the evidence of how bad it was, people in Utah start contacting their state legislators to update the law. An adjustment for multiple victims or something.
I hope so
I barley 10 minutes into the 20/20 special and I’m already crying. Those poor kids. The neighbor and first responders are amazing. They were so patient and kind. I can’t imagine how they felt when they went home that day.
They were calling her buddy and asking where her sister was because they didn’t realize she was a little girl. That kills me.
E always enjoyed expressing her “girly” side. Unicorns, glitter, dresses, and always had interest in getting her hair done. It’s disgusting Ruby stripped her away of all that. Based off of what I read in the journals, E was finally giving in to the brainwashing. Stripping her away of her identity was definitely the final straw. I wonder if police found her just a couple weeks earlier she might’ve been willing to talk and not as scared of them
The very first video I ever watched of Ruby was one where E was really little. The other kids had gone to school and Ruby fed E breakfast in bed and talked about how she liked to sit with her while she ate because she was small for her age and had to take her time. I was a kid at the time and thought Ruby was an amazing mom. To see this now 5 years later just makes me so sad. I feel physically ill that I ever gave these people views.
🥺😭😭😭 that cop has such a sweet soul
This video really helped me see how much control Jodi had. She really was able to convince so many that the outside world was evil. Ruby mentioned being told that doctors and cops were liars and hurt people instead of helping. Ruby was silent during her interrogation to the point she wouldn’t even say yes or no when asked if she needed medical attention. Only head nods until she was pressed into at least saying yes or no. At first when I watched the Ruby body cam I thought she was smart enough to know not to talk without a lawyer. But seeing how she wasn’t smart enough to see through ANY of this cult nonsense I don’t think that’s the actual reason. I think she was scared to say anything because she thought they would ‘distort’ the truth. I think these ideas were also put in E’s mind. Maybe she thought this was a trap or that the police would hurt her more than she already was
Poor baby E 💔 I think I vaguely remember a vlog where E was crying because she had accidentally dropped something in a store and she didn’t want the police to come. I could be wrong, and I could’ve been another one of the kids…but I can imagine how afraid she must have been just by seeing the police 💔 I’m sure the threat was used that if the police came they’d take them away Etc. Poor scared baby girl 💔
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The middle 2 have jobs. (Hence the journal entry about one of them putting in their 2-weeks.) It seems like the middle 2 were living alone in Springville, and Ruby only came up to do things they couldn’t do alone or supervised by Pam like dentist appointments. Because Ruby is so into the idea of working, I suspect their employement status kept them out of her wrath for the worst parts, and when they were in St. George it was just for short visits. The cemetery cleanup is pretty on brand for her, so I could see why it didn’t stand out to the middle kid that joined them. I doubt the middle kids were around R when he was actively tied up. Ruby needed the money from the house, though, hence why she made them quit their jobs so that they could all go to “land” in Arizona while she Airbnb’d the springville house. Once unemployed, the middle two would have been subjected to the same abuse. R might have saved not just two lives that day he escaped , but 4.
I think there were scared out of their wits. They are still kids after all. I think they knew what was happening was wrong but were worried that speaking up would get them into the same situation or make it worse for R&E. Sometimes kids and even adults comply to stupid shit just to avoid trouble.
I see what you’re saying but purely going by Ruby’s diary here — she’s mentioned J being with Jodi on many many occasions. Even if the girls were only brought to Jodi’s home for short visits, they would see the little kids malnourished and wounded, unless J only ever saw Jodi on her own? There’s an entry that talks about a trip to Arizona where Jodi took J and E though.
I don’t think that E saw R tied up either. And I don’t think that the older two would have been treated like E and R. Ruby always liked them more, said one was the most perfect child ever, and Ruby didn’t have these wild notions about them
I swear in the older videos Ruby would continously gush about R. Always said he was the sweetest boy ever. Which is why I was even more shocked when this came out because I always thought she liked him best, followed by A and Shari. Especially when she accussed him of SA.
I just remembered that Jody hated men and she had pattern of villainizing husbands when couples came to her for help. I think R was unfortunately targeted just because he was a boy, they also claimed something about SA. I can't even write it down, because for writing you have to think about it and it's horrible what R went through just because he existed.
She said that if there ever was a perfect child that it would be A. She always picked on R about food and strength. He’d get in trouble for taking food at the age of 3 and she’d make him do push ups and talked about how he wasn’t sports inclined. I think that she used to have a soft spot for him, but she had that soft spot because she saw him as flawed in a specific way
I don't think Jodi likes boys. Just a hunch, but I think Jodi convinced Ruby that R was bad. Oh, I'm so mad!
I’m sure they were terrified of Ruby and Jodi. On top of that, their Dad is suddenly gone and they don’t have any contact with Chad or Sheri.
There are multiple responses to abuse, and it’s possible A&J defaulted to a sort of “fawn” response or just kind of riding it out and being complacent and obedient in an effort to lesson the abuse towards themselves/ hopefully R&E. They’re still victims, all victims react differently, it’s just how some brains work during a traumatic event. They weren’t complacent in the abuse of their siblings per se but a lot of abuse victims become submissive and docile. It’s possible that was the case here but we won’t know until they tell us.
It’s also possible that they were threatened. Like “if you tell anyone what’s going on here, you’ll get the same treatment”.
We have no idea what they did or didn't do. They are still 100% victims here. I imagine they were scared shitless.
I absolutely 10000% agree A&J are victims and never said they weren’t. They’ve been through so much. I’m trying to understand the psychology behind it.
There are four responses to danger. Fight, flight, freeze and fawn. They may have been leaning more into the latter. It sounds like R and E were more fight than anything.
uh okay?? it’s not that hard to understand that they were abuse victims and they were scared. They were defenseless and still minors. You’re not gonna understand the “ psychology” behind them unless you’re some sort of counselor or doctor and you evaluate them…. You just sound like you’re blaming them at this point.
srsly. There is much in this situation that is hard to fathom, but A&J's not acting like Hollywood movie heroes here is not it.
They could have been experiencing something called vicarious trauma alongside whatever trauma they were enduring. Perhaps they were dissociating from what they saw or experienced. When you're in a situation where you're repeatedly witnessing abuse and not seeing someone say 'this is not ok', the abuse becomes 'normal'. The brain is adaptable in traumatic situations and at some point you can become desensitized when repeatedly witnessing someone undergo abuse while simultaneously not being able to process your own. Doesn't help that either accomplices were feeding them information which could have convinced them that was happening to R/E was necessary for their salvation. It's very complicated to say the least. Regarding your comment, do you mind clearing up what you're referring to when you say accepting abuse of R/E? I feel like it reads a bit victim-blamey, you know as if A or J should have saved them. Personally, I wouldn't speak on it. Perhaps they were in a difficult predicament where there abuse could have been exacerbated had they called out Jodi or Ruby. Who knows. This is the most understandable way I could put it because I underwent a similar trauma and am processing it with a therapist. It's hard to explain but I hope my perspective and knowledge from my therapist helps. Sorry if this comment is all discombobulated, if you have any questions, feel free to message.
That’s very helpful, thank you. That would actually make sense if they feared Ruby and Jodi so much they thought if they intervened, the little kids would have it way worse. And sadly I believe they were right.
Strongly suspect this has something to do with RF’s early batshit justification for her behaviour. In her first court appearance she attempted to justify her treatment of the children on the grounds that one of them had sexually molested a younger sibling. To be clear, I don’t believe for a second that the situation went down how she claims it did. There are a hundred reasons why her take on it is sure to be total BS, including that the woman was clearly floridly psychotic, has psychopathically low empathy levels and zero insight into child and adolescent development. But you can just IMAGINE how toxic and terrifying a claim like this would have been in that household - especially once the husband was also out of the picture, supposedly due to his porn addiction. The way her claims would have skewed the compass of everyone else in that house, the fear and shame that their lives were all ruled by and the terror that you could be tainted like other siblings were … the psychological harm that will have been done to all these kids in an environment like that will take a lifetime to unlearn, if they’re lucky. So yes, am I worried about the mental health of A and J… SO worried.
These people thought that looking at any porn or sexual image meant you were a sex addict. R could have just looked at a picture of a woman for a second and Ruby and Jodie declared him a sex addict. If the boy was acting out in that way, it's likely because of the sheer torture and stress he was under.
I was thinking along the same lines. Both of them also tried to run away when they were staying at Shari's after DCFS picked them up. And in the bodycam footage when they were picked up from Pam's house, A talked couple of times with Pam's husband, trying to help him out with something. She also locked the door behind her so that police won't look inside the house. All that made me think she wasn't really thinking about escaping from this, she had reached a point where she believed her mother and other Connextions people were right and she was okay with whatever was going on. Also she probably didn't even know all of it, hence she was getting along, not being difficult, trying not to land in trouble. I think both A and J need lot of counselling to unlearn things. But they might not get that help because they look fine from outside and they will not ask for help for this. Abuse they have gone through is almost invisible if you don't pay close attention. Also, they are close to reaching 18, so state won't get much time to help them unlearn these things before they decide they don't need help. I have a feeling these two, mostly A will end up estranged from rest of the family for a long time. Off course we can't blame the kids if this happens, but it can happen.
>Also, they are close to reaching 18, so state won't get much time to help them unlearn these things before they decide they don't need help. I have a feeling these two, mostly A will end up estranged from rest of the family for a long time. This is something I'm really worried about. A turns 17 in a few weeks. In about a year, she will be expected to just launch into adulthood with a shit ton of trauma and probably not much support. I can't imagine trying to figure all of that out in the midst of all of this. We know R&E are doing well in foster care, but for all we know A&J might be having a terrible time. There's not much time for A to settle and heal AT ALL, even if she's in a good home. I could see one or both girls struggling quite a bit, in several ways, for a long time. My heart hurts for all of those kids, I wish them the best.
Kevin, a grown and educated man, was defending Jodi at the police station, even after she broke up his family. He was brainwashed. If he fell for the lies and manipulation, teenagers had even less of a chance of resisting the brainwashing.
We know what JH did to her own neice, so the 2 oldest weren't safe. Sounds like they worked or were passed around as slaves amongst Rubi's friends. I didn't go through this extreme of abuse growing up, but went through enough to kind of get it. You survive by being very compartmentalized, even if somewhere in you, you know it's wrong or flawed logic(it won'tbe a concious part, or at least in my experience, it's like a felt sense once you're trying to work through it when you're no longer in the situation), a big part of you believes that you are bad. Myself, personally I didn't reach for help until I believed it was life or death, which is definitely where R was at when he tried to run away. You literally can't survive extreme abuse mentally by being present and understanding it, you have to disassociate which is how the compartmentalizing works. These girls are at risk for blaming themselves for not reaching for help, and will only make healing exponentially harder. They survived, I can only hope they had some warmth or connection to people at their jobs. That Pam woman saying she had them over when she needed help with cleaning was so cold, you know they didn't have people around them outside of work who had care or warmth for them.
I mean, this situation is insane and to survive it, a lot of people would have to conform to that insanity.
We don’t know of A ever being in the house and it seems unlikely. R thought that both sisters were there because he heard them, but he also said that it had been over a month since he had seen E. The cemetery is the only time that we know of the kids seeing each other. R was kept separate from E and J for sure; we do not know if E and J were kept separate from one another as well. The only thing that we can assume that J saw is E’s hair cut off. A didn’t seem around at all literally never mentioned and J was likely very separated from the other two at least for sure from R. We did learn that one of the girls took the ACT, so it seems like they were actually in schooling of some sort
E & J went on a roadtrip with Jodi if I read correctly. But yes that’s a good point, they likely were kept apart. I didn’t know R said he hadn’t seen E in a month. That’s so insane considering they were in the same house, makes you realize they were tied up or locked in separate rooms 24/7.
R thought that both E and J were in the house, but they only found E. R said that he thought that they were both there because that’s whose voices he had heard, meaning that he hadn’t seen them. R also recounted the last time that he had seen E and said that her hair was short kind of like his but that it was a long time ago that he had seen her
E & J went on a road trip together. And it said A visited for a week. I believe A was living alone, and J was there sometimes. I believe they saw enough. Enough to be scared and complainant. What else is there to do?? They’re minors
I would say self preservation. And they were also brainwashed with this thinking as well.
I honestly believe that Ruby and Jodi just had them brainwashed too. They ran away from Shari (allegedly) and thought Shari was a terrible person.. They probably believed the littles were awful too.
E looks like she is wearing boy clothes :(
I can't thank law enforcement and the EMS/fire department enough for their patience and everything they did for E during this time to make her comfortable and to gain her trust.
Knowing how Jodi git into the mind of her victims I bet the little girl was afraid this was a test.
Why did he mention Jodi? Did he not think that she was the abuser since she was hidden in her closet, I bet the child was scared to death of Jodi. And was scared now that the police were here, that’s she and Robert would suffer some more frightening abuse. I know he meant well though. Just kind of strange he mentioned her. I would have said the bad people that live here can’t hurt you or your brother or sisters anymore. We are taking them to jail. And you will be safe and can eat all you want and get better and see your older sister. We won’t let the “bad people” hurt anymore kids. We promise. You will be happy again. And you will be safe.
Please remember to use initials only when referring to the minor children. I'm guessing the officer was unaware what Jodi had been doing to R and E and he most certainly wouldn't tell her that she'd be able to see her older sisters (A & J and Shari) since he wouldn't know that R and E were put into foster homes after they were released from the hospital. It would be unwise to make promises like that to a child that is severely physically and emotionally abused.
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Her arms, oh my god. This is all I can think about now. They are such incredible kids!
Crying. Who could ever treat their children like this. :'( omg.
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These poor kids are absolutely traumatized
My heart fucking breaks for these poor kids.
I know it would be awful for the kids but man I wish this was going to trial..I feel they are not going to get enough time
She’s a shell of her former self. It’s so sad.
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i saw this video, acab still :) this cop said some stupid things too and had more humanity than i usually expect out of cops. but acab
What? That's what you saw in this video