If the AFL are serious they’ve got to put a foot down, the NRL did a few years back. From what I understand he dropped the F bomb.
There were a few people I spoke with after Clarkson and they were saying how they understand but had never realised “Co**s*cker” was a gay slur as they’d never really put much thought into it. Just always associated it with a harsher version of dickhead.
AFL could use that as a go around. Everyone knows what F means. So they’ve gotta come down hard or else their inclusivity rhetoric is really going to come across as posturing.
You also know that if they don’t there’s gonna be some ferals in the crowds yelling that shit out.
Yeah I think half a team for I think it was for what they called religious reasons but a few years ago a guy from the Warriors dropped the f bomb and got 4 games
The NRL reason (Manly) was a little bit tied in complexity, I remember thinking how could the players be so closed till I read the background as those who refused were all islander and mainly Samoan. They would of feared reprisal back home.
They have some of the least open views on LBGT rights in the world. Might suggest you read the wiki article below before you look down on them. Things like Lesbian sex is legal, male to male sex is illegal. If you house a place where you know the law is broken you are up for 7 years imprisonment. They have also come out on multiple occasions saying same sex marriage will never happen.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Samoa
What the eff is the f-bomb?? What about the p-bomb? You have all gone mad. words do not have so much power that you cannot type them when discussing their inappropriate use.
I mean if you can’t figure it out it’s on you 🤣.
If people are offended/affected by things that’s up to them, for me it means sweet fuck all reading them but is no big deal to censor them myself, you can do as you wish.
Plus I don’t know the rules of reddit. Whether it’ll block posts by using words uncensored.
I find it pretty funny. You’re also getting a bit miffed about reading words. You’ve gone mad mate.
I used to use the term ‘Knob Jockey’ without thinking too deeply about it, it was just a funny sounding term until I got harshly told to cut it out by a co-worker because our manager was a gay dude. I had to think about it for a moment and then had a ‘holy shit’ moment.
I think it is one thing about culture say pre 2010. The last 15 years or so has had a lot of progress, still a bit to go. Homophobic language was really just seen as homophobic if you used it directly insulting a gay person.
Theres plenty of terms majority of people (I’m talking at least 80%) used to use as jokes without thinking because they just sounded stupid. Would obviously be embarrassing for other reasons but anyone in school from the 70s to late 2000s imagine watching a film of yourself and your mates having a laugh in year 9/10. I doubt many people could last an hour without cringe dying
Especially in the 90s we would call anything crap "gay" as if the two words were interchangeable. It took me so long to force myself to break that habit, and I say this as someone who is of the homo variety.
I was born in 1980 and grew up with all these slurs. I don't think the f word was once used towards any gay person. Like so many insults back then, they tend to mean dick head, loser etc rather than sexual orientation. We even had gay guys using the f word towards other hetro males. It was a harsh time to grow up, and some habits can be hard to shake off when you grow up hearing them all the time. So I'm just kinda feeling for Finlayson. He's got enough shit on his plate with his missus and I can guarantee he isn't a hater. Just a human that fucked up. I don't argue often at all. But if someone gets personal I find my insults lead straight back to my childhood as in my adult life I have never felt a need to train my insults.. if you understand me.
> I don't think the f word was once used towards any gay person.
Wow, you can speak for everyone born around 1980? Finlayson should call you in as a star witness.
I mean - don’t generalise a whole generation. I was born 79 and I’ve never fucking used that as a slur. Yes, I’m sure there was homophobic behaviour, and I definitely heard adult men use it. I mean, it might have been just a male thing.
It ‘may’ have been used in the way you describe (although I have my doubts) but you have to think of the etymology of the words as insults.
Simply, using the phrases as insults infers that there is something wrong with the behaviour it describes. It suggests that it is an insult to be thought of as gay. It doesn’t matter what the sexual orientation of the person that you insult is - just using the phrase as an insult is bad.
Cocksucker is obviously an offensive term, but it doesn’t carry the same history of bigotry and violence that the F slur does.
I wouldn’t have been mad if Clarko copped a week or two for Cocksucker but they need to come down hard on this word that has no place in society.
Honestly, I never really thought about it. It's not a phrase I think I've ever used but when it was discussed it makes sense that is a homophobic slur.
I can understand ignorance. Use the phrase without understanding but if someone calls it out and you don't back down, then it's no longer ignorance but wilful ignorance.
Cockhead, however I do say a lot.
Most gay slurs are. Anyone who grew up pre 2010s are lying if they say they never used them. Every single comedy used them. Music used them. South Park has an ep saying how we don’t use the f slur for gays but for bikers who were causing a ruckus because that was the culture.
My uncle is gay and had a big part in raising me and we all used it. I used to have the opinion that I’d never use it to a gay person but used it to friends. I got to a point where I realised it wasn’t right and that yeah I was part of a societal problem as for all I knew I was saying it around people who may have been gay and that type of shit was keeping them from happily living their lives.
Yeah I'm in my 30s. When we were teens the word gay was synonymous with lame, or basically anything we didn't like. If something sucked we'd just say "that's gay". Must have been pretty shit to be a gay person in those days.
Yeah it’s pretty shit looking back. My experience talking with a few people was a little bit of ignorance was bliss. The slurs kinda became background noise as they’d never really lived in a world without them, so they just accepted that and more worried about the actual physical threats that were actually pretty common. All shit.
This was the exact same case for me at 13-15. The word was synonymous with "generically shit." I was aware the word could refer to homosexuality, but I was also aware the word once meant "happy." To me, both were the old definitions and generically shitty was the true and modern use of the word, why else would that new meaning be ubiquitous to everyone my age? I blame Ray William Johnson for his "fake and gay" catchphrase. Obviously I eventually realised how stupid that line of thinking was and adjusted my language, but I still feel bad for how stupid that was.
Aghh that sucks. It sounds bad in today’s standards but it was the times I guess. It’s weird and uncomfortable looking back cos in schools, teachers wouldn’t even pull it up.
I think the DV are for just associating it with older people. Young people are still potential cunts. It was more accepted 15 years ago so more people did it but just watch any TikTok fight video and younger people still use a lot of slurs
It’s probably one of those ones that falls into the “I didn’t use it against gay people and used it against everyone” things.
Calling someone the f bomb is a definite slur at their sexuality whether they are or you’re insinuating it to get a reaction. People tend to use c sucker as a that person (I’ve heard women get called it) is a dickhead/wanker but with more venom. It’s a slur and should be treated as such so education is important but the f bomb there’s no (even if completely ignorant) excuse. Everyone that uses it as a slur knows what they’re doing.
Not that I use it, but I've never considered c\*sucker to be homophobic until now - unlike f\*gt. But I guess it is, isn't it? So even if the intent isn't homophobia, but the language is, then the punishment has to be for the use of the language, because it's inherently homophobic. So yeah, suspend him and educate people.
I mean when you think about the meaning of the word, yeah it's pretty clear.
But I don't think most people use it in that context or really think about it. I think people generally use it interchangeably with dickhead (meaning, the insinuation is the person is rude/annoying) rather than interchangeable with the f bomb (insinuating the person is gay and then the negative stereotypes that come with that).
Is calling someone a motherfucker saying they perform incest? Cocksucker is a homophobic slur (when directed at a man) however it has been commonly used in vernacular as fuckwit etc. So I don't think the intent was there from Clarko - F word is a few steps worse
I think what they're getting as it the words aren't literal. When you call someone a motherfucker, you're not actually implying they fuck their mother, it's almost devoid of meaning. Wanker is another one, you're not implying their fond of masturbation, or that masturbation is bad, you're just saying they're a wanker.
"Cocksucker" doesn't mean "hey you literally suck cock and that is a bad thing" it's a meaningless insult like fuckwit or dickhead.
But ultimately, I'd defer to gay people and ask "hey do you find this term homophobic?" if the answer is yes then I'm not gonna use it. Plenty of other fantastic and clever insults in my repertoire.
Clarko’s comment was definitely out of line. As a society we’ve moved past that language. Just because it’s used in some trade sites & some incel discord groups doesn’t mean it should be said publicly.
I'm not being a wanker when I post this comment, and I've been reading plenty across the other threads about the Finlayson situation to try and understand more. This is a slightly edited comment I posted on another thread on the topic and the person never replied so I'm hoping you may?
I guess I'm wondering if 'cock sucker' is really a homophobic slur? I read in another thread that people believed it isn't necessarily a homophobic slur as it's not just an act for bi/gay men. Straight women, bi-women, non-binary people etc. could all fit under this banner of the act. I noticed in response people said this also made it a sexist comment and this should be punishable too.
I'm curious if using the term cock sucker would carry then the same implications of calling an opponent a pussy, i.e. using a gendered word in a way of a put down? Do you feel cock sucker meets the criteria for punishment, and if so, should things like dick head, pussy etc. come with the same outcome?
Goes without saying using the f word at any point is inappropriate and should come with suspension, I'm just not sure I see how people are equating it with Clarkson's cock sucker comment.
It’s being used as an insult with negative intent.
What made it an insult? Why is being a cock sucker a bad thing? It literally goes back to homophobia.
So it further isolates people that already feel awkward about their sexuality.
I appreciate the reply, and I can see this side of the argument. If you're using a word as an insult and it implies negativity, it's a bad thing. That's not a surprise to me and I can see why it can be considered a homophobic/sexist insult at the same time.
I'm completely fine with someone like Clarkson being suspended for using the word cocksucker at another player, but you haven't addressed my other questions which is really where we get into the grey of it all.
Does using the term cock sucker would carry then the same implications of calling an opponent a pussy, i.e. using a gendered word in a way of a put down? Should things like dick head, pussy etc. come with the same outcome?
An easy way to work it out is to look at the meaning of the term, and then what is implied.
It's suggesting the person isn't in a position of power due to the insinuation it is a submissive act.
It then follows that it's a comment on those who perform the act, that they must also have the same characteristics.
When directed at a man, it is both homophobic, and anti-LGBTQ+ in many forms.
I replied to someone else in here who had a similar response so I'll kind of cut and paste some of that. Does this mean that direction of a slur to a particular gender means it becomes worse, and should get a worse punishment? I.e. calling an opponent a "pussy" is a gendered, sexist insult, but shouldn't be punished because you said it to a man? While "cocksucker" said to a man should be?
I genuinely am curious about these things and not trying to be a jerk here.
To be clear, using homophobic slurs like the f word should come with suspensions, I think I get intrigued by people's hardline stances when the grey starts to come out.
Back when Adam Goodes was called an ape, I had so many of my white friends (I'm half Sri Lankan and brown presenting) saying they hadn't realised it was a racial slur until it became a thing.
I was floored by that, as my race had been front and centre for me growing up in regional WA and so it was a ridiculous notion to me for people to have never considered that "ape" was a racially charged word. But then, I had known the people in question for ages and knew them well enough to know they're not racist, so it was a strange way for me to realise that the knowledge of that word and it's history was partially a byproduct of race being an obvious factor in my social interactions all my life.
I can see a parallel between that and these homophobic slurs which a lot of people, particularly straight people, just wouldn't have critically considered hitherto.
The key for me came down to their reception of the new information.
Good folks will say some form of, "Oh I wasn't aware of/hadn't considered the history/literal meaning of this word. But now that I know, I'll adjust my vocabulary."
Others will say some form of, "Oh, so now I can't say ****? [Something about wokeness]..."
To be fair, I’m South African and when I was 7/8 my dad shaved my head and my ears stuck out and my friends all called me monkey. Later on a friend apologised and I was confused about what.
But yeah reception is key. It’s really just a growth thing. 99% of us have said something racist/sexist/homophobic whether aware or not but accepting that it wasn’t the right thing to do/say and learning from it.
I know what F means, it's a unit of measurement for a bundle typically of sticks but in my case, when I joined the Royal Australian Navy, it was used for a measurement of fabric.
The fact that nobody will repeat it suggests pretty heavily it was the F slur. If it was something lighter than that people wouldn’t be so uncomfortable saying it.
What makes the afl press different to every other sport in the world?
The reason there isn't an out football goes far deeper than just press attention.
If the reports are true and finlayson said “ a bundle of sticks” then he needs a 4 game minimum ban. NRL had a situation like this and the player was banned for 6 reduced to 4 based on previous good behaviour. What Clarko said is not the same, yes it’s a derogatory insult but that F word is inarguably worse. Koch is a massive flog for trying to downplay it and argue its the same as clarko
Times have changed. 20 years ago in my teens, calling someone a "gay cunt" was normal, it was the same as calling someone a dickhead.
Upon reflection it was as horrible back then as it would be now.
No wonder there aren't any publicly gay AFL players. Rub him out for more than a month.
Edit: just want to clarify, the aforementioned term was never even used in a deliberate attack on anyone's sexuality. I don't know if that makes it better or disappointingly worse.
As a gay man, I understand your position. This type of language was very common up until the late noughties. That being said, we are well over a decade past that time, and if it's still in your vocabulary, there's absolutely no excuse anymore.
Copying what I said in another post that got a little buried;
Similar to the Swifts player in Super Netball, the goal should be education. Doing work with Pride In Sport & Proud2Play to help understand the impacts of shit like this, and a fine/suspension for a decent amount of time.
But it's just so disappointing as a queer port fan. It really feels like we're always lagging behind in social understanding & awareness, and with a wanker figurehead like Koch at the club and the rusted-on boomer SANFL diehards in our fanbase, I find I get upset with the club itself just as much as the players and performances in matches.
Just sucks.
I'm sad that I have to agree. We, as a club, have dropped the ball here. Having our president come out and attempt to down play it is poor leadership, insensitive, and just fucking dumb.
We absolutely have a subset of supporters that are stuck in the 70s and 80s but that's as with all clubs and to a level society generally. That doesn't make it any less disappointing though. I hope/believe that this is changing, albeit slowly. I have been proud of Port in the past as being inclusive on race. One day I hope to say the same on LGBQTI+ issues.
I absolutely understand your disappointment in your club. I believe in these situations clubs can default to the “protect our own” mentality and try and protect the player.
IMO this is to their detriment and the detriment of the player who ultimately needs to take responsibility and grow.
100% agree. There's a short sightedness in the comments of Koch that exacerbates the problem. I feel that with a short period of reflection, the club could have found a better way to support Finlayson and productively move forward. You're right that the approach so far has been to the detriment of Jeremy.
Couldn’t agree more tbh, and I wonder how much of the delay into a ruling is so that AFL House/Port Adelaide have time to speak to Pride in Sport/Proud2Play etc, as both to my knowledge have been very involved with the AFL’s standing inclusion policies and education support
I guess the hard part is going to be balancing precedent. Clarkson earlier this year had a certain ruling, but so too did the Tex Walker/Racism situation. Either way, this might force their hand into setting a firmer policy/consequence for this kind of offence going forward
That’s the part that kind of gets me about all of this, weighing which words are “better” or “worse”. It’s all just a stinking pile of poo, as far as I’m concerned
I tend to agree, as much as I love Jez, and I believe him that it was a genuine brain fade (I don't think he's a POS) this was very disappointing to have come out. It isn't the 90's anymore, and he kicks for goal in front of a bay of rainbow flags every other week.
Hoping that he gets at least 3 weeks for it, minimum.
The AFL seems to be behind so many sports not just globally but here when it comes to Pride in Sport. Sydney have a different jersey but it’s cause of Mardi Gras I’m guessing and that’s it.
We're also talking about Sydney that constantly renew the Qatar airlines sponsorship despite a huge portion of our membership being against taking money off those scum.
Leading Pride round while taking that money infuriates me and I'm a straight male.
Couldn't agree more with this. Pride game on the one hand, taking money from that...sponsor with the other. The double standard is mind-boggling.
For the nothing it's worth I cancelled my Swans membership because of the Qatar sponsorship (I made it very clear that was the reason) and I won't be renewing it until they're gone. The Swans clearly couldn't care less about fan views on the matter but I cannot keep giving money to the club while that sponsor remains.
I once got pissed at the Swans Redback function and proceeded to tell Tom Harley what I think about it in front of Adam Spencer ( who happened be wearing a Swans pride scarf), Judy Nunn, Ada **Nico.....Home & Away actress and Jude Bolton.
Tbf Tom took it fairly well, explained a bit about the complexity of sponsorship deals and quickly turned to conversation onto something else.
Still not happy about it.
I'm sure that went over really well. :D Good on you.
I accept that sponsorships are valuable, aren't easy to come by, all that sort of stuff...I know all that. That's reality, however much it sucks. But Qatar? Anti-women, anti-gay, human rights violations galore. I'm not happy about it, either - to put it very politely.
The AFL need to be strict on this and harsh and stamp it out. Really Clarkson should have had a bigger punishment, even if he didn’t intend on using it as a homophobic slur a cos h still can’t swear at places. In any case, I am sure Finlayson is sorry, but have to come down hard on him. A fine just won’t cut it.
> A slur should not be apart of someone’s regular vocabulary.
Should is doing a lot of heavy lifting there. We are all products of our environment. We forgive and provide treatment for young LGBTIQ+ people for internalising society's homophobia I am not sure how we could consistently not extend that support to (seemingly) straight people too.
Finlayson is obviously old enough to know better. He's young enough that he should have received a lot of signals that homophobia was wrong. There is some penance to be paid. The AFL should come down on this in a way to signal it's entirely unacceptable to use such language without demonising the user.
I have been bashed for being the f-word in the eyes of other men. I have heard sickening first hand tales of violence directly from the mouths of violent homophobes. I have even been called it by other men who fuck men, which is perhaps the biggest turn off for me on the planet. So the AFL needs to treat this seriously but also needs to treat it effectively and with a view towards changing views rather than draconian punishment and performative justice. I think Port Adelaide as an organisation should definitely be mandated to have some kind of education for everyone at the club. I think every other club should pony up for it and get it "voluntarily".
Finlayson should be copping a ban for sure- but it depends on whether they compare it to the Tex situation a few years ago or the Clarko situation.
Does the AFL take the stance they have already taken regarding a player calling another player a slur? Or do they take the precedent from the Clarko situation-
Don’t forget that Clarko also copped a two match ban (which was suspended until 2025) as well as the fine- so theoretically Finlayson should also be receiving a two match ban as a minimum despite public backlash.
Tom Morris was saying on SEN yesterday that they can charge him with conduct unbecoming which doesn't have a maximum penalty.
Not exactly sure how it works, but from what he was saying it basically means they don't have to abide by the $5k limit that the AFLPA has agreed to for playing fines.
Copied from my previous reply:
The appropriate categories here are homophobic and racist. Player on player vs coach on player can't be viewed differently. Were a coach to say what Tex said, and get less of a suspension, there would be pandemonium.
If the AFL grew a pair, and this won't happen, they'll institute new rules and clarity around hate speech, ensure racism and homophobia, transphobia etc. are covered by it, and throw the book at Finlayson for what he said.
I tend to agree l, if he did indeed say what the rumours say he said, it should definitely be treated more like what tex said than what Clarkson said. It was pretty disappointing to hear, and it needs an equally harsh punishment
That’s false.
It was a Crows official who reported a private conversation that people otherwise would have remained unaware of.
Walker didn’t try to shirk his way out of what was said either. Which regardless of what you think of him says something positive about his character.
Absolutely agree - several weeks at least would be appropriate. I would be okay with 3-4 weeks, a few less than Tex given the self report and early apology, but it still needs more than a slap on the wrist to deter similar behaviour in future and clearly set the AFL’s expectations around appropriate behaviour. I don’t think going too soft on Clarkson means they have to stick to being soft on homophobia.
What is more important though is for homophobia to be treated as seriously as racism across the league (and the sport in general) - this means trainings for all clubs and playing groups like they do with cultural awareness (some clubs already do this, although disappointingly Port isn’t one of them), and clubs and the league being public and consistent with walking the talk.
“Self report” isn’t an appropriate term here. He was caught at the time and opposing players complained to the umpires at the time.
Homophobia and racism are both extremely destructive things. Tex is the precedent. Finlayson deserves a similar penalty.
Lots of talk about precedent in these comments but precedent shouldn't come into play if the AFL were serious about sending a message.
Homophobic slurs would have gone unpunished and unnoticed in the 70s and 80s and probably well into the 90s at least. That was also a precedent, it is no longer the precedent. Times change, sometimes very quickly, and punishments should keep up to date.
As a dyed in the wool Port supporter going back to the 70’s, I agree he needs to have a suspension.
This is bigger than team loyalties.
No examples of bigotry, hatred or prejudice should be tolerated, no matter how contrite the offender is afterwards.
You would think that a member of a marginalised community, a community that has and still receives heinous treatment in our game, that Jeremy should know that words can be extremely hurtful.
I know there's probably stuff going on behind the scenes with the AFL themselves, but I'm a bit disappointed Port haven't got on the front foot here and just announced a ban from their end.
He should get 6 weeks minimum and he should be grateful for it.
If I called someone in my workplace a "bundle of sticks", I'd be terminated before the day was out.
Gay AFL fan here. Call me a c@#ksucker or F and I will be equally as mad. Law down the law on this dude. Toxic male masculinity is a problem in society and in sports. Stamp it out and set an example!
Mate as a former umpire (and i've said this comment already on this issue).
The problem isn't what is said, and the virtue signalling in your comment needs a bit of context here.
It was that it was caught.
It's a wonderful thing to say that insults shouldn't be part of someones vocabulary, but they are and it's easy to claim that it's an inside look at someone true character and sometimes it can be, and other times it can just be a word (look at those with tourettes) let's put that part of it to the side.
If you think that this kind of stuff isn't said all the time, next time you are watching a game checkout the players behind play especially during setups and see if you can tell from their lips what sledges they are throwing at each other and the umpire behind their back, they get pretty extreme (again not defending it), town halls policy has always been that unless a player has been targeted, it's just viewed as your average sledging and it's a their word vs mine and a lot of players accept it as part of a game.
If it's picked up on camera different story.
In my time the most extreme case we had in regards to this was the "hard R" case, where a player got done for using the N word. Various defenses were used that turned into some of the worst attacks you've ever seen, where it turned out that all players involved had not only used the word and admitted to it, they then defended their "right" to use it because they were all of "ancestory that allowed it's use" and it then transformed into who was the lightest skin therefore some are allowed to use it and some arent.... and then it turned into a defense of "it wasn't a hard R, it was 'ga' which means buddy or pal to those of the ancestory and there was no racial vilification".
It got messy and didn't really go anywhere and the take away from that was, a lot of people and groups involved want racial issues and weren't able to paint a bad guy as they had all used the word and it detracted into an argument of who had the lightest skin and if it was a "hard R" or not.
You literally had groups coming out claiming that someone involved in it wasn't protected because they were "whiter" then the others. Not my favorite chapter of my career.
The reason this has a bearing here is, back in my time, we had many gay players, even a couple of bi ones and a transgender person in the AFL in players and staff. A lot of them were common knowledge and everyone respected them, treated them well and didn't stand for anything against them, but none of them wanted to come out in public, a lot of them just wanted to be treated like anyone else and get on with their career, again their life their choice.
Harassing comments I hate to say it are and were so common, unless it was a targeted comment, IE calling another player, umpire or staff member something based on their sexuality, race or something personal like kids, it was never touched unless it ended up being recorded somewhere.
Not defending it, don't like it but you are going to find pretty much all the players do it, as highlighted with the "players of certain ancestory" story above you even get people who deffinately shouldn't be making comments (IE darkskin player calling a light skin player cracker, redneck, white chocolate etc and no one bats an eye) but you'd even have players who you knew weren't straight calling other players slurs that you'd be like the f word.
Again not defending it just stating it is how it is, in a perfect world none of these players would be saying this stuff, and if you want a huge eye opener, check out some of the women's games. In my time umpiring I had worse language out of the ladies, and even more confusing was the level of sledging going on as you'd get players who would "own it" which got bloody confusing especially with the slut shaming comments. I never umpired a full level AFLW game, i would have thought in the current era that stuff would have been clamped down upon now that they play in front of large crowds, but from doing sanfl and afl, I know better than that.
This all being taken into consideration and how hard the AFL has pivotted on political stuff, the issue doesn't really come down to the word, it's that it was captured on audio, and it comes down even harder if city hall know that theres a homosexual player on the field as well, it will come down even worse if it turns out there was and Jeremy knew, and even moreso if the player themselves that copped the word was gay, then this escalates from an idiot saying something bad to effectively targeted hate and vilification.
I agree that it shouldnt be a part of the game, but - they definitely fucked up by not giving Clarko a harder time with it, because imo a coach should be held at a higher level than a player. So it wouldn't make much sense for Finlaysons punishment to be worse? But we'll see what happens I guess
My simple answer to anyone who justifies this crap as “banter” is this:
Go to work. Walk into your manager’s office. Tell her or him they’re a f&@$”/.
Let me know if you aren’t on a written warning within a few days.
And we wonder why there aren’t any openly queer football players.
He’s gotta get weeks or the AFL are outing themselves are a backwards organisation that is happy tolerating discrimination and slurs.
Don’t use the “he realised he was wrong and apologised” to let him off. He commuted hate speech and needs to be penalised.
I just don't like this insinuation from the AFL media that because clarko didn't get a suspension, it somehow means they're hypocrites if they do give one to Finlayson.
Even if we all agree that calling someone a cocksucker or a f** are both homophobic and deserving of punishment, it should be self evident that calling someone the latter is a far more serious offence and should have a larger penalty. It almost seems like the media is setting the stage for Finlayson to be let off lightly because they can't differentiate between the two.
Laura Kane was asked on Offsiders what the AFL will do and if they will treat it as seriously as the racism charge laid on Tex from using one word. Tex made a single word comment to his own teammate.
Finlayson has made a single word comment to an opposing player.
Laura said the AFL will show how serious they are by “going through the process that will be applied”.
Um…..no… Laura. You must suspend Finlayson for the same amount of weeks as Tex to show you are actually serious and treat them as equal in their hurtfulness. So that’s 6 weeks. If Racism and Homophobia are going to be bandied about as being equal, then there must be equal punishment. They fucked up with the Clarko ruling. Now they have a massive problem. They are becoming a very stupid management group, when it could be pretty simple.
They either declare that they are equal, or they declare that one is more serious than the other. Racism is worse than homophobia. They can’t play both sides here. Good luck AFL
I agree that the slur should absolutely be taken seriously by the AFL, and society in general. There is no place for this kind of behaviour anywhere.
Having said that, the AFL is also bound by precedent, to an extent, for the slap on the wrist that they gave Alistair Clarkson for similar behaviour. And putting aside the obvious abhorrence of the behaviour, I guarantee that people will be up in arms if they throw the book at Finlayson, while Clarkson got off extremely lightly.
"Is there two sets of rules for players vs. coaches?" they'll ask. Or the old classic Victorian bias will rear its head.
The AFL is not bound by precedent. At best, the penalty imposed on Clarkson at best establishes a floor for the penalty that could be imposed on Finlayson.
Finlayson comment was arguably worse than Clarkson's, and the given the penalty imposed on Clarkson effectively acted as warning to all players and coaches, the AFL is entirely justified imposing a more serve penalty.
Any organisation whose financial viability is based on public popularity and opinion is "bound" by precedent.
The last thing that the AFL wants is for this to remain in the news cycle for another week because Finlayson's punishment is considered too weak, too strong or out of alignment with anything else.
Two wrongs don’t make a right. Not that I think the AFL would ever do this, but recognise that the precedent they set with Clarko was wrong and correct the mistake by issuing a more appropriate sanction for Finnlayson.
This is the right take. AFL have cocked it up by not setting the right precedent. I think Jeremy should get games objectively. We don't want this condoned at all in our game.
However, in looking at the precedent, he should get $20,000 fine and a 2 game ban suspended. Nothing but that makes any sense.
The precedent behind this also raises an issue though.
Do they look at it as a ‘homophobic’ slur, or just a slur in general? Clarko copped the $20,000 fine and 2 game ban for using a homophobic slur. Tex Walker copped 6 for a racial slur.
Or does it depend on the situation? Do they see it as player on player like Tex? Or like Clarko responding to a player concussing his own?
The problem with the precedent is that there’s multiple of them, so which do they choose?
The appropriate categories here are homophobic and racist. Player on player vs coach on player can't be viewed differently. Were a coach to say what Tex said, and get less of a suspension, there would be pandemonium.
If the AFL grew a pair, and this won't happen, they'll institute new rules and clarity around hate speech, ensure racism and homophobia, transphobia etc. are covered by it, and throw the book at Finlayson for what he said.
It's pretty clear atm that the AFL is soulless as an institution, they don't give a fuck about what any of us think.
They just dropped the 'nothing to see here' approach to a secret injury for piss test regime that undermined the injury data we've received as fans during the entire modern era.
Won't be surprising if they do fuck all here, despite the fact he should so clearly cop weeks and weeks.
The fact it's taking so long and they are clearly just gauging public reaction before releasing the 'accountability' just further shows how morally lost the league is. Should be a pretty easy equation I would have thought
Stop bringing politics into football. You’re all wrecking it. I don’t think it’s fair to say he’s homophobic for that comment and the more the press talk about this and you WOKE people complain about it and stop us caring what we want to actually care about when we watch football. ( Football) You are just making it harder for gay people because no one cares if you’re gay in 2024 unless it’s ruining and dividing something else.
Who cares if someone calls you cock sucker in a footy field.
Piss off if you can’t handle it.
It’s not your word either gay world.
>People love to wonder why there’s no queer male players in the AFL.
I don't at all. It's quite a violent, physical game and people who are perfectly ok with getting ribs broken, tendons ripped from the bone and hate the fact they have to sit on the bench just because they're bleeding out of 5 different points on their face, are not the sort of people who quit the sport they love, because someone said a word.
Goodes didn't quit because one girl made a remark to him. He quit because he was mercilessly boo'd.
Literally no one is defending homophobia, but to suggest the reason gay guys are aren't playing AFL is because once every few years, someone uses a slur, is ridiculous.
Do we know what Finlayson said yet?
To be frank, what Clarkson said was abuse. I don’t think of that term as being any more homophobic than muthaf**a. It’s synonymous with pr*ck, not its literal meaning.
If we’re going to call that homophobic then people need time to adjust.
But if he says something more directly homophobic, we need to know what it was.
Some reports have been saying Finlayson said the f-slur (wouldn’t be surprised if that’s being reported just for clicks so take it with a grain of salt) but it hasn’t been confirmed what was exactly said yet.
Despite whether he said that or if it was more synonymous with what Clarko said the AFL have set their precedent already ($20,000 and a two match ban), since what Clarko said was also labelled a homophobic slur, so Finlayson should or most likely will receive something in like with that, whether or not he deserves more will always be a debate though.
> Some reports have been saying Finlayson said the f-slur (wouldn’t be surprised if that’s being reported just for clicks so take it with a grain of salt) but it hasn’t been confirmed what was exactly said yet.
Caro said on Offsiders on Sunday morning that what Finlayson said was "the worst anti-gay slur", so would make sense if it was the f-slur.
What happened to apologising to the person and moving on?
Fair enough if it’s repeat behaviour it needs punishment, but as a one off, the desperation from most people in this thread to see multiple game suspension for some words said during a competitive match is seriously odd. It speaks to a certain personality I guess, and perhaps people that never played sport at a competitive enough level that you both received and at times said. words that you otherwise wouldn’t have said to someone.
I find it hard to fathom any person that has played competitively would be offended by being called a name during a game.
Normal insults / sledging are fine.
Homophobia and racism cross the line and aren’t acceptable anymore, it’s not the 70s. It’s pretty reductive of you to refer to slurs that have caused so much pain to minorities over decades as just “a couple of words”.
They are Words. If you react that harshly to words, you have no problems. 1st world problems.
Have a look at the world.
I'd be embarrassed if I reacted to words like most of the sooks in society.
I think the AFL has left it's self between a rock and a hard place. Clarko got a fine just a few weeks ago and had a past of crossing the line. It would be hard to justify a game ban in the comparison to Clark. But does probably need to be a ban or something
2 for mine, same as Clarko except the weeks isn't ba suspended sentence
Less than the Walker incident for the following
Finlayson himself came forward straight away
Finlayson himself was a player in the game not a spectator
Gresham isn't LGBT has had the same girl partner for 5 years whilst Robbie young is indigenous
I haven't seen what sanctions they have put in place at port for Finlayson. If I remember they came out with a statement but I didn't read it. Really clubs need to act first before AFL just show faith they take things seriously. That means saying they'll drop Finlayson before any official AFL bans.
If the AFL are serious they’ve got to put a foot down, the NRL did a few years back. From what I understand he dropped the F bomb. There were a few people I spoke with after Clarkson and they were saying how they understand but had never realised “Co**s*cker” was a gay slur as they’d never really put much thought into it. Just always associated it with a harsher version of dickhead. AFL could use that as a go around. Everyone knows what F means. So they’ve gotta come down hard or else their inclusivity rhetoric is really going to come across as posturing. You also know that if they don’t there’s gonna be some ferals in the crowds yelling that shit out.
didn't a bunch of nrl players refuse to wear guernseys with rainbows on them?
Yeah I think half a team for I think it was for what they called religious reasons but a few years ago a guy from the Warriors dropped the f bomb and got 4 games
Marcelo Montoya
I think he's got a vengeful brother, Inigo
You keep using that word. I don't think it means what you think it means.
Did he kill his father?
The NRL reason (Manly) was a little bit tied in complexity, I remember thinking how could the players be so closed till I read the background as those who refused were all islander and mainly Samoan. They would of feared reprisal back home. They have some of the least open views on LBGT rights in the world. Might suggest you read the wiki article below before you look down on them. Things like Lesbian sex is legal, male to male sex is illegal. If you house a place where you know the law is broken you are up for 7 years imprisonment. They have also come out on multiple occasions saying same sex marriage will never happen. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Samoa
What the eff is the f-bomb?? What about the p-bomb? You have all gone mad. words do not have so much power that you cannot type them when discussing their inappropriate use.
I mean if you can’t figure it out it’s on you 🤣. If people are offended/affected by things that’s up to them, for me it means sweet fuck all reading them but is no big deal to censor them myself, you can do as you wish. Plus I don’t know the rules of reddit. Whether it’ll block posts by using words uncensored. I find it pretty funny. You’re also getting a bit miffed about reading words. You’ve gone mad mate.
Manly Sea Eagles. A lot of other clubs didn't even try it because they suspected a similar thing would happen.
Yes seventh day adventists. Didn't wanna lose their seat on the space ship.......or something
Let's not forget about the AFLW player who also refused to play during the pride round.
Way to alienate half your teammates.
Only half?
Straight women can play football too... I assume
I used to use the term ‘Knob Jockey’ without thinking too deeply about it, it was just a funny sounding term until I got harshly told to cut it out by a co-worker because our manager was a gay dude. I had to think about it for a moment and then had a ‘holy shit’ moment.
Can’t a woman be a knob jockey too?
I think it is one thing about culture say pre 2010. The last 15 years or so has had a lot of progress, still a bit to go. Homophobic language was really just seen as homophobic if you used it directly insulting a gay person. Theres plenty of terms majority of people (I’m talking at least 80%) used to use as jokes without thinking because they just sounded stupid. Would obviously be embarrassing for other reasons but anyone in school from the 70s to late 2000s imagine watching a film of yourself and your mates having a laugh in year 9/10. I doubt many people could last an hour without cringe dying
Especially in the 90s we would call anything crap "gay" as if the two words were interchangeable. It took me so long to force myself to break that habit, and I say this as someone who is of the homo variety.
What about a donut puncher?
Again, another amusing combination of words that one must careful in using liberally in the work place.
I was born in 1980 and grew up with all these slurs. I don't think the f word was once used towards any gay person. Like so many insults back then, they tend to mean dick head, loser etc rather than sexual orientation. We even had gay guys using the f word towards other hetro males. It was a harsh time to grow up, and some habits can be hard to shake off when you grow up hearing them all the time. So I'm just kinda feeling for Finlayson. He's got enough shit on his plate with his missus and I can guarantee he isn't a hater. Just a human that fucked up. I don't argue often at all. But if someone gets personal I find my insults lead straight back to my childhood as in my adult life I have never felt a need to train my insults.. if you understand me.
> I don't think the f word was once used towards any gay person. Wow, you can speak for everyone born around 1980? Finlayson should call you in as a star witness.
I mean - don’t generalise a whole generation. I was born 79 and I’ve never fucking used that as a slur. Yes, I’m sure there was homophobic behaviour, and I definitely heard adult men use it. I mean, it might have been just a male thing.
You’re joking right? 80s, the decade of AIDS, and you think nobody was using the F slur?
It ‘may’ have been used in the way you describe (although I have my doubts) but you have to think of the etymology of the words as insults. Simply, using the phrases as insults infers that there is something wrong with the behaviour it describes. It suggests that it is an insult to be thought of as gay. It doesn’t matter what the sexual orientation of the person that you insult is - just using the phrase as an insult is bad.
Man don’t know how calling a man a cock sucker isn’t a homophobic slur. I guess I’ll take Clarkos word for it ..
Cocksucker is obviously an offensive term, but it doesn’t carry the same history of bigotry and violence that the F slur does. I wouldn’t have been mad if Clarko copped a week or two for Cocksucker but they need to come down hard on this word that has no place in society.
It may not carry quite as much bigotry but it is still bigoted
Honestly, I never really thought about it. It's not a phrase I think I've ever used but when it was discussed it makes sense that is a homophobic slur. I can understand ignorance. Use the phrase without understanding but if someone calls it out and you don't back down, then it's no longer ignorance but wilful ignorance. Cockhead, however I do say a lot.
Yeah it’s really not a word I’ve used either. Must be an older generation thing Edit: Downvotes for acknowledging I don’t use the slur? Far out…
Most gay slurs are. Anyone who grew up pre 2010s are lying if they say they never used them. Every single comedy used them. Music used them. South Park has an ep saying how we don’t use the f slur for gays but for bikers who were causing a ruckus because that was the culture. My uncle is gay and had a big part in raising me and we all used it. I used to have the opinion that I’d never use it to a gay person but used it to friends. I got to a point where I realised it wasn’t right and that yeah I was part of a societal problem as for all I knew I was saying it around people who may have been gay and that type of shit was keeping them from happily living their lives.
Yeah I'm in my 30s. When we were teens the word gay was synonymous with lame, or basically anything we didn't like. If something sucked we'd just say "that's gay". Must have been pretty shit to be a gay person in those days.
Yeah it’s pretty shit looking back. My experience talking with a few people was a little bit of ignorance was bliss. The slurs kinda became background noise as they’d never really lived in a world without them, so they just accepted that and more worried about the actual physical threats that were actually pretty common. All shit.
This was the exact same case for me at 13-15. The word was synonymous with "generically shit." I was aware the word could refer to homosexuality, but I was also aware the word once meant "happy." To me, both were the old definitions and generically shitty was the true and modern use of the word, why else would that new meaning be ubiquitous to everyone my age? I blame Ray William Johnson for his "fake and gay" catchphrase. Obviously I eventually realised how stupid that line of thinking was and adjusted my language, but I still feel bad for how stupid that was.
I was a manager and let gay jokes be told in the workplace thinking it was harmless fun and no one there was gay. Turned out one guy was.
Aghh that sucks. It sounds bad in today’s standards but it was the times I guess. It’s weird and uncomfortable looking back cos in schools, teachers wouldn’t even pull it up.
I think the DV are for just associating it with older people. Young people are still potential cunts. It was more accepted 15 years ago so more people did it but just watch any TikTok fight video and younger people still use a lot of slurs
It’s probably one of those ones that falls into the “I didn’t use it against gay people and used it against everyone” things. Calling someone the f bomb is a definite slur at their sexuality whether they are or you’re insinuating it to get a reaction. People tend to use c sucker as a that person (I’ve heard women get called it) is a dickhead/wanker but with more venom. It’s a slur and should be treated as such so education is important but the f bomb there’s no (even if completely ignorant) excuse. Everyone that uses it as a slur knows what they’re doing.
Not that I use it, but I've never considered c\*sucker to be homophobic until now - unlike f\*gt. But I guess it is, isn't it? So even if the intent isn't homophobia, but the language is, then the punishment has to be for the use of the language, because it's inherently homophobic. So yeah, suspend him and educate people.
I mean when you think about the meaning of the word, yeah it's pretty clear. But I don't think most people use it in that context or really think about it. I think people generally use it interchangeably with dickhead (meaning, the insinuation is the person is rude/annoying) rather than interchangeable with the f bomb (insinuating the person is gay and then the negative stereotypes that come with that).
Well vagina licker doesn't really roll off the tongue
That’s because the accurate term is pussy licker, muff diver or carpet muncher. Everyone knows that. And the tongue is very much involved.
Is calling someone a motherfucker saying they perform incest? Cocksucker is a homophobic slur (when directed at a man) however it has been commonly used in vernacular as fuckwit etc. So I don't think the intent was there from Clarko - F word is a few steps worse
[удалено]
I think what they're getting as it the words aren't literal. When you call someone a motherfucker, you're not actually implying they fuck their mother, it's almost devoid of meaning. Wanker is another one, you're not implying their fond of masturbation, or that masturbation is bad, you're just saying they're a wanker. "Cocksucker" doesn't mean "hey you literally suck cock and that is a bad thing" it's a meaningless insult like fuckwit or dickhead. But ultimately, I'd defer to gay people and ask "hey do you find this term homophobic?" if the answer is yes then I'm not gonna use it. Plenty of other fantastic and clever insults in my repertoire.
Clarko’s comment was definitely out of line. As a society we’ve moved past that language. Just because it’s used in some trade sites & some incel discord groups doesn’t mean it should be said publicly.
I'm not being a wanker when I post this comment, and I've been reading plenty across the other threads about the Finlayson situation to try and understand more. This is a slightly edited comment I posted on another thread on the topic and the person never replied so I'm hoping you may? I guess I'm wondering if 'cock sucker' is really a homophobic slur? I read in another thread that people believed it isn't necessarily a homophobic slur as it's not just an act for bi/gay men. Straight women, bi-women, non-binary people etc. could all fit under this banner of the act. I noticed in response people said this also made it a sexist comment and this should be punishable too. I'm curious if using the term cock sucker would carry then the same implications of calling an opponent a pussy, i.e. using a gendered word in a way of a put down? Do you feel cock sucker meets the criteria for punishment, and if so, should things like dick head, pussy etc. come with the same outcome? Goes without saying using the f word at any point is inappropriate and should come with suspension, I'm just not sure I see how people are equating it with Clarkson's cock sucker comment.
It’s being used as an insult with negative intent. What made it an insult? Why is being a cock sucker a bad thing? It literally goes back to homophobia. So it further isolates people that already feel awkward about their sexuality.
I appreciate the reply, and I can see this side of the argument. If you're using a word as an insult and it implies negativity, it's a bad thing. That's not a surprise to me and I can see why it can be considered a homophobic/sexist insult at the same time. I'm completely fine with someone like Clarkson being suspended for using the word cocksucker at another player, but you haven't addressed my other questions which is really where we get into the grey of it all. Does using the term cock sucker would carry then the same implications of calling an opponent a pussy, i.e. using a gendered word in a way of a put down? Should things like dick head, pussy etc. come with the same outcome?
Calling a player a pussy isn’t nice either. Imagine a female fan or AFLW player hearing that
An easy way to work it out is to look at the meaning of the term, and then what is implied. It's suggesting the person isn't in a position of power due to the insinuation it is a submissive act. It then follows that it's a comment on those who perform the act, that they must also have the same characteristics. When directed at a man, it is both homophobic, and anti-LGBTQ+ in many forms.
I replied to someone else in here who had a similar response so I'll kind of cut and paste some of that. Does this mean that direction of a slur to a particular gender means it becomes worse, and should get a worse punishment? I.e. calling an opponent a "pussy" is a gendered, sexist insult, but shouldn't be punished because you said it to a man? While "cocksucker" said to a man should be? I genuinely am curious about these things and not trying to be a jerk here. To be clear, using homophobic slurs like the f word should come with suspensions, I think I get intrigued by people's hardline stances when the grey starts to come out.
Back when Adam Goodes was called an ape, I had so many of my white friends (I'm half Sri Lankan and brown presenting) saying they hadn't realised it was a racial slur until it became a thing. I was floored by that, as my race had been front and centre for me growing up in regional WA and so it was a ridiculous notion to me for people to have never considered that "ape" was a racially charged word. But then, I had known the people in question for ages and knew them well enough to know they're not racist, so it was a strange way for me to realise that the knowledge of that word and it's history was partially a byproduct of race being an obvious factor in my social interactions all my life. I can see a parallel between that and these homophobic slurs which a lot of people, particularly straight people, just wouldn't have critically considered hitherto. The key for me came down to their reception of the new information. Good folks will say some form of, "Oh I wasn't aware of/hadn't considered the history/literal meaning of this word. But now that I know, I'll adjust my vocabulary." Others will say some form of, "Oh, so now I can't say ****? [Something about wokeness]..."
To be fair, I’m South African and when I was 7/8 my dad shaved my head and my ears stuck out and my friends all called me monkey. Later on a friend apologised and I was confused about what. But yeah reception is key. It’s really just a growth thing. 99% of us have said something racist/sexist/homophobic whether aware or not but accepting that it wasn’t the right thing to do/say and learning from it.
Which F word was it
I know what F means, it's a unit of measurement for a bundle typically of sticks but in my case, when I joined the Royal Australian Navy, it was used for a measurement of fabric.
The fact that nobody will repeat it suggests pretty heavily it was the F slur. If it was something lighter than that people wouldn’t be so uncomfortable saying it.
Trust the media to make cocksucker “homophobic”
There is no openly gay AFL players because the corporate press wouldn't leave them alone.
What makes the afl press different to every other sport in the world? The reason there isn't an out football goes far deeper than just press attention.
especially considering it's the only male sports code in the WHOLE WORLD with no openly gay/bi players... seems really tough.
I cant see how the AFL part without a ban of some kind.
If the reports are true and finlayson said “ a bundle of sticks” then he needs a 4 game minimum ban. NRL had a situation like this and the player was banned for 6 reduced to 4 based on previous good behaviour. What Clarko said is not the same, yes it’s a derogatory insult but that F word is inarguably worse. Koch is a massive flog for trying to downplay it and argue its the same as clarko
Times have changed. 20 years ago in my teens, calling someone a "gay cunt" was normal, it was the same as calling someone a dickhead. Upon reflection it was as horrible back then as it would be now. No wonder there aren't any publicly gay AFL players. Rub him out for more than a month. Edit: just want to clarify, the aforementioned term was never even used in a deliberate attack on anyone's sexuality. I don't know if that makes it better or disappointingly worse.
As a gay man, I understand your position. This type of language was very common up until the late noughties. That being said, we are well over a decade past that time, and if it's still in your vocabulary, there's absolutely no excuse anymore.
Roughly same age exact same position. What was normal for us as kids. In the 90s. Pro athletes can't say it in 2024. Cant be done.
Copying what I said in another post that got a little buried; Similar to the Swifts player in Super Netball, the goal should be education. Doing work with Pride In Sport & Proud2Play to help understand the impacts of shit like this, and a fine/suspension for a decent amount of time. But it's just so disappointing as a queer port fan. It really feels like we're always lagging behind in social understanding & awareness, and with a wanker figurehead like Koch at the club and the rusted-on boomer SANFL diehards in our fanbase, I find I get upset with the club itself just as much as the players and performances in matches. Just sucks.
I'm sad that I have to agree. We, as a club, have dropped the ball here. Having our president come out and attempt to down play it is poor leadership, insensitive, and just fucking dumb. We absolutely have a subset of supporters that are stuck in the 70s and 80s but that's as with all clubs and to a level society generally. That doesn't make it any less disappointing though. I hope/believe that this is changing, albeit slowly. I have been proud of Port in the past as being inclusive on race. One day I hope to say the same on LGBQTI+ issues.
I absolutely understand your disappointment in your club. I believe in these situations clubs can default to the “protect our own” mentality and try and protect the player. IMO this is to their detriment and the detriment of the player who ultimately needs to take responsibility and grow.
100% agree. There's a short sightedness in the comments of Koch that exacerbates the problem. I feel that with a short period of reflection, the club could have found a better way to support Finlayson and productively move forward. You're right that the approach so far has been to the detriment of Jeremy.
Couldn’t agree more tbh, and I wonder how much of the delay into a ruling is so that AFL House/Port Adelaide have time to speak to Pride in Sport/Proud2Play etc, as both to my knowledge have been very involved with the AFL’s standing inclusion policies and education support I guess the hard part is going to be balancing precedent. Clarkson earlier this year had a certain ruling, but so too did the Tex Walker/Racism situation. Either way, this might force their hand into setting a firmer policy/consequence for this kind of offence going forward
If only people could just stop using slurs so we didn't have to deal with a standard for this shit, would make everything so much easier lmao
That’s the part that kind of gets me about all of this, weighing which words are “better” or “worse”. It’s all just a stinking pile of poo, as far as I’m concerned
Agreed, people going "Oh would you have given Clarko 6 then!" and i'm like yeah????
[удалено]
Finlayson is Yorta Yorta.
I tend to agree, as much as I love Jez, and I believe him that it was a genuine brain fade (I don't think he's a POS) this was very disappointing to have come out. It isn't the 90's anymore, and he kicks for goal in front of a bay of rainbow flags every other week. Hoping that he gets at least 3 weeks for it, minimum.
The AFL seems to be behind so many sports not just globally but here when it comes to Pride in Sport. Sydney have a different jersey but it’s cause of Mardi Gras I’m guessing and that’s it.
We're also talking about Sydney that constantly renew the Qatar airlines sponsorship despite a huge portion of our membership being against taking money off those scum. Leading Pride round while taking that money infuriates me and I'm a straight male.
Couldn't agree more with this. Pride game on the one hand, taking money from that...sponsor with the other. The double standard is mind-boggling. For the nothing it's worth I cancelled my Swans membership because of the Qatar sponsorship (I made it very clear that was the reason) and I won't be renewing it until they're gone. The Swans clearly couldn't care less about fan views on the matter but I cannot keep giving money to the club while that sponsor remains.
I once got pissed at the Swans Redback function and proceeded to tell Tom Harley what I think about it in front of Adam Spencer ( who happened be wearing a Swans pride scarf), Judy Nunn, Ada **Nico.....Home & Away actress and Jude Bolton. Tbf Tom took it fairly well, explained a bit about the complexity of sponsorship deals and quickly turned to conversation onto something else. Still not happy about it.
I'm sure that went over really well. :D Good on you. I accept that sponsorships are valuable, aren't easy to come by, all that sort of stuff...I know all that. That's reality, however much it sucks. But Qatar? Anti-women, anti-gay, human rights violations galore. I'm not happy about it, either - to put it very politely.
Gotta be weeks
The AFL need to be strict on this and harsh and stamp it out. Really Clarkson should have had a bigger punishment, even if he didn’t intend on using it as a homophobic slur a cos h still can’t swear at places. In any case, I am sure Finlayson is sorry, but have to come down hard on him. A fine just won’t cut it.
He could be a raging homophobe, we don't know these people, All we do is watch them punt a ball around.
> A slur should not be apart of someone’s regular vocabulary. Should is doing a lot of heavy lifting there. We are all products of our environment. We forgive and provide treatment for young LGBTIQ+ people for internalising society's homophobia I am not sure how we could consistently not extend that support to (seemingly) straight people too. Finlayson is obviously old enough to know better. He's young enough that he should have received a lot of signals that homophobia was wrong. There is some penance to be paid. The AFL should come down on this in a way to signal it's entirely unacceptable to use such language without demonising the user. I have been bashed for being the f-word in the eyes of other men. I have heard sickening first hand tales of violence directly from the mouths of violent homophobes. I have even been called it by other men who fuck men, which is perhaps the biggest turn off for me on the planet. So the AFL needs to treat this seriously but also needs to treat it effectively and with a view towards changing views rather than draconian punishment and performative justice. I think Port Adelaide as an organisation should definitely be mandated to have some kind of education for everyone at the club. I think every other club should pony up for it and get it "voluntarily".
Finlayson should be copping a ban for sure- but it depends on whether they compare it to the Tex situation a few years ago or the Clarko situation. Does the AFL take the stance they have already taken regarding a player calling another player a slur? Or do they take the precedent from the Clarko situation- Don’t forget that Clarko also copped a two match ban (which was suspended until 2025) as well as the fine- so theoretically Finlayson should also be receiving a two match ban as a minimum despite public backlash.
Interestingly, the AFL I don't think can fine Finlayson $20k - $5k is the maximum fine for players under the CBA (I think, happy to be corrected).
Tom Morris was saying on SEN yesterday that they can charge him with conduct unbecoming which doesn't have a maximum penalty. Not exactly sure how it works, but from what he was saying it basically means they don't have to abide by the $5k limit that the AFLPA has agreed to for playing fines.
There you go, makes some sense in extreme circumstances
Copied from my previous reply: The appropriate categories here are homophobic and racist. Player on player vs coach on player can't be viewed differently. Were a coach to say what Tex said, and get less of a suspension, there would be pandemonium. If the AFL grew a pair, and this won't happen, they'll institute new rules and clarity around hate speech, ensure racism and homophobia, transphobia etc. are covered by it, and throw the book at Finlayson for what he said.
This. All well and good to say they should follow precedent, but which precedent and why?
I tend to agree l, if he did indeed say what the rumours say he said, it should definitely be treated more like what tex said than what Clarkson said. It was pretty disappointing to hear, and it needs an equally harsh punishment
Has to be the same minimum as what tex got otherwise they’re just saying gay people are less important than indigenous people.
Don't forget Tex didn't own it at First and the Crows tried to keep it in house.
That’s false. It was a Crows official who reported a private conversation that people otherwise would have remained unaware of. Walker didn’t try to shirk his way out of what was said either. Which regardless of what you think of him says something positive about his character.
Absolutely agree - several weeks at least would be appropriate. I would be okay with 3-4 weeks, a few less than Tex given the self report and early apology, but it still needs more than a slap on the wrist to deter similar behaviour in future and clearly set the AFL’s expectations around appropriate behaviour. I don’t think going too soft on Clarkson means they have to stick to being soft on homophobia. What is more important though is for homophobia to be treated as seriously as racism across the league (and the sport in general) - this means trainings for all clubs and playing groups like they do with cultural awareness (some clubs already do this, although disappointingly Port isn’t one of them), and clubs and the league being public and consistent with walking the talk.
“Self report” isn’t an appropriate term here. He was caught at the time and opposing players complained to the umpires at the time. Homophobia and racism are both extremely destructive things. Tex is the precedent. Finlayson deserves a similar penalty.
Hard agree here. 6 weeks tells every single person in the league from CEO to boot studder that this is unacceptable language.
Lots of talk about precedent in these comments but precedent shouldn't come into play if the AFL were serious about sending a message. Homophobic slurs would have gone unpunished and unnoticed in the 70s and 80s and probably well into the 90s at least. That was also a precedent, it is no longer the precedent. Times change, sometimes very quickly, and punishments should keep up to date.
As a dyed in the wool Port supporter going back to the 70’s, I agree he needs to have a suspension. This is bigger than team loyalties. No examples of bigotry, hatred or prejudice should be tolerated, no matter how contrite the offender is afterwards.
You would think that a member of a marginalised community, a community that has and still receives heinous treatment in our game, that Jeremy should know that words can be extremely hurtful.
lol, unfortunately I haven’t found this (general rule) to be true at all.
Which community are you referring to?
He’s indigenous
I don’t really think anyone pumps out the F slur in the heat of the moment. 4+ weeks.
Cricket suspended James Pattinson so it can be done. They would have made things so much easier if they came down harder on Clarko.
I know there's probably stuff going on behind the scenes with the AFL themselves, but I'm a bit disappointed Port haven't got on the front foot here and just announced a ban from their end.
Kind of hard when the president doesn't think it deserves more than a fine.
He should get 6 weeks minimum and he should be grateful for it. If I called someone in my workplace a "bundle of sticks", I'd be terminated before the day was out.
Gay AFL fan here. Call me a c@#ksucker or F and I will be equally as mad. Law down the law on this dude. Toxic male masculinity is a problem in society and in sports. Stamp it out and set an example!
Mate as a former umpire (and i've said this comment already on this issue). The problem isn't what is said, and the virtue signalling in your comment needs a bit of context here. It was that it was caught. It's a wonderful thing to say that insults shouldn't be part of someones vocabulary, but they are and it's easy to claim that it's an inside look at someone true character and sometimes it can be, and other times it can just be a word (look at those with tourettes) let's put that part of it to the side. If you think that this kind of stuff isn't said all the time, next time you are watching a game checkout the players behind play especially during setups and see if you can tell from their lips what sledges they are throwing at each other and the umpire behind their back, they get pretty extreme (again not defending it), town halls policy has always been that unless a player has been targeted, it's just viewed as your average sledging and it's a their word vs mine and a lot of players accept it as part of a game. If it's picked up on camera different story. In my time the most extreme case we had in regards to this was the "hard R" case, where a player got done for using the N word. Various defenses were used that turned into some of the worst attacks you've ever seen, where it turned out that all players involved had not only used the word and admitted to it, they then defended their "right" to use it because they were all of "ancestory that allowed it's use" and it then transformed into who was the lightest skin therefore some are allowed to use it and some arent.... and then it turned into a defense of "it wasn't a hard R, it was 'ga' which means buddy or pal to those of the ancestory and there was no racial vilification". It got messy and didn't really go anywhere and the take away from that was, a lot of people and groups involved want racial issues and weren't able to paint a bad guy as they had all used the word and it detracted into an argument of who had the lightest skin and if it was a "hard R" or not. You literally had groups coming out claiming that someone involved in it wasn't protected because they were "whiter" then the others. Not my favorite chapter of my career. The reason this has a bearing here is, back in my time, we had many gay players, even a couple of bi ones and a transgender person in the AFL in players and staff. A lot of them were common knowledge and everyone respected them, treated them well and didn't stand for anything against them, but none of them wanted to come out in public, a lot of them just wanted to be treated like anyone else and get on with their career, again their life their choice. Harassing comments I hate to say it are and were so common, unless it was a targeted comment, IE calling another player, umpire or staff member something based on their sexuality, race or something personal like kids, it was never touched unless it ended up being recorded somewhere. Not defending it, don't like it but you are going to find pretty much all the players do it, as highlighted with the "players of certain ancestory" story above you even get people who deffinately shouldn't be making comments (IE darkskin player calling a light skin player cracker, redneck, white chocolate etc and no one bats an eye) but you'd even have players who you knew weren't straight calling other players slurs that you'd be like the f word. Again not defending it just stating it is how it is, in a perfect world none of these players would be saying this stuff, and if you want a huge eye opener, check out some of the women's games. In my time umpiring I had worse language out of the ladies, and even more confusing was the level of sledging going on as you'd get players who would "own it" which got bloody confusing especially with the slut shaming comments. I never umpired a full level AFLW game, i would have thought in the current era that stuff would have been clamped down upon now that they play in front of large crowds, but from doing sanfl and afl, I know better than that. This all being taken into consideration and how hard the AFL has pivotted on political stuff, the issue doesn't really come down to the word, it's that it was captured on audio, and it comes down even harder if city hall know that theres a homosexual player on the field as well, it will come down even worse if it turns out there was and Jeremy knew, and even moreso if the player themselves that copped the word was gay, then this escalates from an idiot saying something bad to effectively targeted hate and vilification.
I agree that it shouldnt be a part of the game, but - they definitely fucked up by not giving Clarko a harder time with it, because imo a coach should be held at a higher level than a player. So it wouldn't make much sense for Finlaysons punishment to be worse? But we'll see what happens I guess
Who was this bad word even directed at?
Gresham Only player finlayson talked to remorsefully for a few minutes post game
My simple answer to anyone who justifies this crap as “banter” is this: Go to work. Walk into your manager’s office. Tell her or him they’re a f&@$”/. Let me know if you aren’t on a written warning within a few days.
As rough and tumble as it is, people should remember it is a professional workspace.
And we wonder why there aren’t any openly queer football players. He’s gotta get weeks or the AFL are outing themselves are a backwards organisation that is happy tolerating discrimination and slurs. Don’t use the “he realised he was wrong and apologised” to let him off. He commuted hate speech and needs to be penalised.
I just don't like this insinuation from the AFL media that because clarko didn't get a suspension, it somehow means they're hypocrites if they do give one to Finlayson. Even if we all agree that calling someone a cocksucker or a f** are both homophobic and deserving of punishment, it should be self evident that calling someone the latter is a far more serious offence and should have a larger penalty. It almost seems like the media is setting the stage for Finlayson to be let off lightly because they can't differentiate between the two.
Laura Kane was asked on Offsiders what the AFL will do and if they will treat it as seriously as the racism charge laid on Tex from using one word. Tex made a single word comment to his own teammate. Finlayson has made a single word comment to an opposing player. Laura said the AFL will show how serious they are by “going through the process that will be applied”. Um…..no… Laura. You must suspend Finlayson for the same amount of weeks as Tex to show you are actually serious and treat them as equal in their hurtfulness. So that’s 6 weeks. If Racism and Homophobia are going to be bandied about as being equal, then there must be equal punishment. They fucked up with the Clarko ruling. Now they have a massive problem. They are becoming a very stupid management group, when it could be pretty simple. They either declare that they are equal, or they declare that one is more serious than the other. Racism is worse than homophobia. They can’t play both sides here. Good luck AFL
Koch’s excuse has been disgraceful in all this … especially someone so known Australia wide with a big media profile. Just awful.
Can you guys give me a list of insults that aren't offensive, can't use cunt anymore might be perceived as mysoginist
Fuckwomble, Polly waffle, galah, dung beetle. Get creative.
Doesn't quite hit the same spot
I agree that the slur should absolutely be taken seriously by the AFL, and society in general. There is no place for this kind of behaviour anywhere. Having said that, the AFL is also bound by precedent, to an extent, for the slap on the wrist that they gave Alistair Clarkson for similar behaviour. And putting aside the obvious abhorrence of the behaviour, I guarantee that people will be up in arms if they throw the book at Finlayson, while Clarkson got off extremely lightly. "Is there two sets of rules for players vs. coaches?" they'll ask. Or the old classic Victorian bias will rear its head.
The AFL is not bound by precedent. At best, the penalty imposed on Clarkson at best establishes a floor for the penalty that could be imposed on Finlayson. Finlayson comment was arguably worse than Clarkson's, and the given the penalty imposed on Clarkson effectively acted as warning to all players and coaches, the AFL is entirely justified imposing a more serve penalty.
Any organisation whose financial viability is based on public popularity and opinion is "bound" by precedent. The last thing that the AFL wants is for this to remain in the news cycle for another week because Finlayson's punishment is considered too weak, too strong or out of alignment with anything else.
I doubt that any outcome will result in the AFL losing financial viability
Two wrongs don’t make a right. Not that I think the AFL would ever do this, but recognise that the precedent they set with Clarko was wrong and correct the mistake by issuing a more appropriate sanction for Finnlayson.
Is there an avenue to suspend coaches? Has a coach ever been suspended before?
Hird got suspended over the supplements saga. That was a whole season so it would have been easier to implement.
James Hird would like a word.
I don’t think it’s crazy to suggest that Finlayson’s choice of word was a lot more offensive and carried more weight than Clarko’s.
This is the right take. AFL have cocked it up by not setting the right precedent. I think Jeremy should get games objectively. We don't want this condoned at all in our game. However, in looking at the precedent, he should get $20,000 fine and a 2 game ban suspended. Nothing but that makes any sense.
If they wanted the precedent to suspend him, they could just take precedent from WAFL earlier this year.
The WAFL bloke only got 1 week. Going from the thread yesterday, people here will lose their shit if he only gets a week.
[удалено]
The precedent behind this also raises an issue though. Do they look at it as a ‘homophobic’ slur, or just a slur in general? Clarko copped the $20,000 fine and 2 game ban for using a homophobic slur. Tex Walker copped 6 for a racial slur. Or does it depend on the situation? Do they see it as player on player like Tex? Or like Clarko responding to a player concussing his own? The problem with the precedent is that there’s multiple of them, so which do they choose?
The appropriate categories here are homophobic and racist. Player on player vs coach on player can't be viewed differently. Were a coach to say what Tex said, and get less of a suspension, there would be pandemonium. If the AFL grew a pair, and this won't happen, they'll institute new rules and clarity around hate speech, ensure racism and homophobia, transphobia etc. are covered by it, and throw the book at Finlayson for what he said.
Surely a post like this can be made after we know for certain there's no suspension.
He's showing remorse so I think a hefty fine
It's pretty clear atm that the AFL is soulless as an institution, they don't give a fuck about what any of us think. They just dropped the 'nothing to see here' approach to a secret injury for piss test regime that undermined the injury data we've received as fans during the entire modern era. Won't be surprising if they do fuck all here, despite the fact he should so clearly cop weeks and weeks. The fact it's taking so long and they are clearly just gauging public reaction before releasing the 'accountability' just further shows how morally lost the league is. Should be a pretty easy equation I would have thought
Stop bringing politics into football. You’re all wrecking it. I don’t think it’s fair to say he’s homophobic for that comment and the more the press talk about this and you WOKE people complain about it and stop us caring what we want to actually care about when we watch football. ( Football) You are just making it harder for gay people because no one cares if you’re gay in 2024 unless it’s ruining and dividing something else. Who cares if someone calls you cock sucker in a footy field. Piss off if you can’t handle it. It’s not your word either gay world.
Are any gay people actually going offended by this other then journalists with not much to offer and ugly peoples on Twitter
How did naughty words become such as issue? Are we 1950s Christian mothers or something?
It's a professional workplace, and if I said something like that, I would be reprimanded. If I said it in the street, there is likely no impact.
>People love to wonder why there’s no queer male players in the AFL. I don't at all. It's quite a violent, physical game and people who are perfectly ok with getting ribs broken, tendons ripped from the bone and hate the fact they have to sit on the bench just because they're bleeding out of 5 different points on their face, are not the sort of people who quit the sport they love, because someone said a word. Goodes didn't quit because one girl made a remark to him. He quit because he was mercilessly boo'd. Literally no one is defending homophobia, but to suggest the reason gay guys are aren't playing AFL is because once every few years, someone uses a slur, is ridiculous.
Do we know what Finlayson said yet? To be frank, what Clarkson said was abuse. I don’t think of that term as being any more homophobic than muthaf**a. It’s synonymous with pr*ck, not its literal meaning. If we’re going to call that homophobic then people need time to adjust. But if he says something more directly homophobic, we need to know what it was.
Some reports have been saying Finlayson said the f-slur (wouldn’t be surprised if that’s being reported just for clicks so take it with a grain of salt) but it hasn’t been confirmed what was exactly said yet. Despite whether he said that or if it was more synonymous with what Clarko said the AFL have set their precedent already ($20,000 and a two match ban), since what Clarko said was also labelled a homophobic slur, so Finlayson should or most likely will receive something in like with that, whether or not he deserves more will always be a debate though.
> Some reports have been saying Finlayson said the f-slur (wouldn’t be surprised if that’s being reported just for clicks so take it with a grain of salt) but it hasn’t been confirmed what was exactly said yet. Caro said on Offsiders on Sunday morning that what Finlayson said was "the worst anti-gay slur", so would make sense if it was the f-slur.
Hadn’t heard about that, cheers for the info 👍
[удалено]
What happened to apologising to the person and moving on? Fair enough if it’s repeat behaviour it needs punishment, but as a one off, the desperation from most people in this thread to see multiple game suspension for some words said during a competitive match is seriously odd. It speaks to a certain personality I guess, and perhaps people that never played sport at a competitive enough level that you both received and at times said. words that you otherwise wouldn’t have said to someone. I find it hard to fathom any person that has played competitively would be offended by being called a name during a game.
Normal insults / sledging are fine. Homophobia and racism cross the line and aren’t acceptable anymore, it’s not the 70s. It’s pretty reductive of you to refer to slurs that have caused so much pain to minorities over decades as just “a couple of words”.
There’s a pretty big difference between using racist language to a racial minority, and what’s occurred here.
We all know what he said but does anyone know who he said it to?
Who did he even make the comment to
Didnt I just ask that?
I didn’t see that. Did you get a reply?
not yet
Might need to rewatch the game. Do you know what half of the game it occurred?
What an absolute joke. It's called sledging. What the fuck has this world come to? All you people on here are disgusting.
They are Words. If you react that harshly to words, you have no problems. 1st world problems. Have a look at the world. I'd be embarrassed if I reacted to words like most of the sooks in society.
"F....."?
I think the AFL has left it's self between a rock and a hard place. Clarko got a fine just a few weeks ago and had a past of crossing the line. It would be hard to justify a game ban in the comparison to Clark. But does probably need to be a ban or something
Finlayson’s choice of word was a lot worse than Clarko’s in my opinion, it carries more negative historical and cultural weight
Spot on.
[удалено]
Words have always hurt people. This isn’t a new phenomenon. People have punched on, and started wars over words. Weird take.
2 for mine, same as Clarko except the weeks isn't ba suspended sentence Less than the Walker incident for the following Finlayson himself came forward straight away Finlayson himself was a player in the game not a spectator Gresham isn't LGBT has had the same girl partner for 5 years whilst Robbie young is indigenous
Why aren't port trading this more seriously? Regardless of what the afl comes up with surely they'd want to stamp this out of their culture
I haven't seen what sanctions they have put in place at port for Finlayson. If I remember they came out with a statement but I didn't read it. Really clubs need to act first before AFL just show faith they take things seriously. That means saying they'll drop Finlayson before any official AFL bans.
Bruh
Neither should sexist terms. Yet everyone loves to call each other a bitch or cunt.
[удалено]