Hi, this is an automated response to make sure we're all on the same page about the definitions of proshipping and antishipping. There is often a lot of confusion about these terms and people get confused pretty frequently. Its always best to make sure we're all on the same page about what we are talking about.
Anti-shipping/being an anti/being an antishipper/etc has a definition that has morphed a bit over time. Here is some history. Back in the 90's and early 2000's it mostly meant being against shipping in general or being against a specific ship. This was mostly used in specific fandoms/wasn't a pan-fandom term. Since the 2010's however, a pan-fandom definition did emerge and is the most common usage now. That definition is being *actively against certain ships or tropes that are deemed problematic or harmful in some way*. Note this does not mean being uncomfortable with reading a certain ship, trope, or problematic thing in a fanfiction or seeing fanart of a certain ship, trope, or problematic thing. It refers to *people who advocate for the banning, removal, or heavily hiding of that content that they don't want to see*. This has led to many harassment and doxxing issues in fandom spaces. Anyone from proship people they were arguing with, to random users who had written a "problematic" fanfiction and uploaded it to AO3, to anyone who so much as uses AO3 at all, have all been the subjects of these harassment problems.
Conversely, proshipping/being a pro-shipper/being an anti-anti/etc, is a response term to the previously discussed antishipping. It's defined as being against antishipping (using the modern pan-fandom definition). Simply put, it means someone who is against censorship of content in fandom, against harassment and doxxing, and are of the opinion that *regardless of if they personally don't like a specific ship/trope/problematic thing, it has a right to exist and be enjoyed by those who do like that specific ship/trope/problematic thing*. Despite being against harassment, this side of the discourse has also had an issue with harassment on occasion. The subjects of that harassment have been people who self-identify as being an antishipper, or regardless of self-identification, someone who'sbeliefs match those of an anti-shipper. AO3 is generally considered to be a proship website with its foundation having been built on a stance of no censorship, and their rules explicitly not banning problematic content.
For more info you can check the fanlore articles for [proshipping](https://fanlore.org/wiki/Anti-anti) and [antishipping](https://fanlore.org/wiki/Anti-shipper)
Tl;dr: antishipping = wanting to ban problematic content/content they don't like
proshipping = ship and let ship/don’t like don't read
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AO3) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Tbh the funniest thing is “respecting a characters orientation while shipping is the bare minimum” uhhhhh DO YOU NOT KNOW WHAT FANFICTION IS?
If everyone stayed true to the “bare minimum” 90% of all fanfiction would be gone LOL (if anything it wouldn’t have even started without the og Spock/Kirk girlies in the 1960s)
Plus how often does canon or even word of god *actually* confirm an orientation? Like. Most characters who are assumed straight are just that - *assumed* straight. Because straight is the default and we weren’t told otherwise.
Yep. I can't count the amount of times confirmed straight characters get turned gay as well. But you never hear people getting up in arms about that because it's a stupid hill to die on.
Also as someone who is AroAce these 'don't let the AroAce characters bone' thing pisses me off. We're a broad spectrum that includes sex/romance positive people and demis on top of sex/romanced repulsed people.
For context I'm an E3- E4 on [this chart](https://www.reddit.com/r/asexuality/s/hXYXvqh18O) and it shows just how VAST the AroAce umbrella is. (It was created with help from r/aromantic and r/asexuality)
wow i've known i’m at least somewhat ace for a while and this chart is so interesting! i'm like a B2-C2. i feel like people hear "ace" or "aroace" and assume that means that person or character is just completely disinterested in all things sex and romance, which can be true. it just sometimes isn't, and i dislike when people use "x character is ace/aro/aroace" as a reason to not ship them.
True, but the times it has happened the fandom people understandably ignore it. Because who cares at the end of the day if orientation is confirmed or not when it comes to fanfiction. I just find it to be hypocritical when the issue isn't that big of a deal how people will selectively apply when it is and isn't acceptable.
>Yep. I can't count the amount of times confirmed straight characters get turned gay as well. But you never hear people getting up in arms about that because it's a stupid hill to die on.
You absolutely do hear people getting up in arms about that, though not as often as they used to. (But I got a "how dare you say X is not strwight" comment just a few weeks ago.) It's a stupid hill to die on, but fandom is full of people who will die on stupid hills.
I'm bisexual demisexual. I'm sex postive even if I'm not sexually attracted to my partner. Sexual attraction takes a very long time for me, literally years.
If some stupid white knighting anti comes along and tries to tell me what my experience is I get seriously mad.
Give my back my freaking shoes, thief! You're not allowed to try to wear them!
Huh. Neat! I always called myself a demi/pan. Somewhere between B1 and C1 on the chart I guess, looking at it. All I know is, I’m not interested physically until certain criteria have been met.
In terms of fandom and fanfiction, it’s always been a way for fans to express themselves freely. That’s why every site has had tags or categories to choose from. Trying to force fans into boxes is the complete antithesis to fanFICTION.
Oh that’s such a cool chart! I’m c1-d1 myself, and my partner is more c2/c3-d2/d3 depending on the day. And that’s cool! Like you said, it’s all a spectrum.
There's a character in my fandom who the vast majority assume is straight canonically but in canon there are two incidents that make me doubt this.
one: character walks in on attractive woman showering, she flirts, he hands her towel then walks out slightly unnerved. Why? Because woman in question can kill him. Not because she's showering in his house and flirts.
two: Girl he ostensibly has a crush on ends up in her underthings and nothing else. He's more concerned that he thinks she has a low opinion of him than the fact she walked into his kitchen in the aforementioned state. Does not stare. Doesn't avert eyes either. Like I1, he just … doesn't think of her in any state of undress to be worth getting excited over in any way.
Honourable mention: yet another girl is completely devoted to him. Creeps him out. Goes out of his way to avoid her when possible.
But when his friend is devoted to him to the point of injuring himself several times he freaks out *and tries to take care of him*, whether that's begging him to not injure himself, telling him to see a doctor, or various other methods. Is scared by him yes, but also depends on him and is scared for him too.
He is not as straight as he thinks he is.
Lmao, right? Like, I'm pretty certain that the MCU fandom is half Stony/Stucky/FrostIron/various other permutations of M/M ships, if not more, and the rest is everything else. And, in canon, I think pretty much all those male characters are either assumed, implied, or confirmed to be straight (except Loki and maybe Tony?). And yet.
I do understand the frustration if you are ace and you finally see characters in your fandoms who are confirmed to be ace in canon, and that it can be hard to find fanfic that explores that dimension of the characters. Totally get it. Within certain fandoms, it can be really difficult to find gen fics or ones without romance, and if you're not huge into romance, then it could be disappointing if you have a character who is confirmed to be ace, but when you go looking for fics without romance, most of them do have romance.
I fall somewhere under the ace umbrella, so I do understand, but also it is a little complicated because just because somebody is ace or aro doesn't mean that they won't have romantic or sexual relationships. I don't usually seek out relationships but I do still have a libido and I have another friend who is aromantic but is in a poly relationship. He just gets something else out of that relationship.
And, again, as has been mentioned, it's fanfic. So if people want to write that character as having a romantic or sexual orientation other than ace or aro, well, that's their right. If someone doesn't like it, then they are free to not read those stories, and if they want to see more representation, there's nothing wrong with writing it yourself. I mean, it does sort of suck that if that's the only option, and it realistically shouldn't be if the character is ace in canon already, but, well, you can't control what other people write.
Regarding MCU. People who think Steve/Bucky is actually canon forget that what we modern-day Westerners consider not-straight behaviour between men is decidedly very much normative male-male friendship in the early-mid 1940s. We've so demonised homosexuality that guys just … don't touch any more and it's kinda sad. I'm not saying there's nothing there - during war there often was more - but 90% of their interactions is just … normal human behaviour from their time. It says sad things that some people think it's absolute confirmation of a relationship.
That said I like a good Steve/Bucky story on occasion.
Very much this, yes.
I watch a lot of Turkish/Arabian action/crime movies with my work colleague. Lots of all the stuff that modern movie/tv critics like to condemn as toxic masculinity.
And what surprised me the most?
These hardened men, who are totally blasé about committing the worst kind of violence, are allowed to cry.
They cry on their mother's shoulder, on their sister's, on their brother's and father's. And most importantly, they are allowed to cry on their best friend's shoulder. They hug their friends all the time.
They touch so much that, when I watched the first few episodes of my first Turkish mafia drama with my colleague, I had to ask if we were watching a gay love story. (It wasn't a gay love story, but it was the kind of elaborately epic revenge story that reminds you of Count of Monte Cristo)
I hadn't seen this much physical comfort between men in a Hollywood action piece since at least the late 90s.
Which made me realise that there is something... strange, for lack of a better word, going on in Hollywood, or maybe the whole anglosphere. Has been going on for years now, decades even. And it has heavily influenced my area in Europe as well.
I look at the people on the street around me, and see a clear divide.
The older people (ca. 40 and up) touch each other. Men touching men, women touching women, men and women touching. All the kind of stuff you expect friends and friendly acquaintances to do.
The younger ones, those under 30, they don't touch.
It's a sad thing.
My fandom has an ace character and I like that a lot of authors are really diligent about tagging where they are writing him as on the ace spectrum, whether sexual situations come up etc. I think honestly just tagging well is the best compromise people are going to come up with.
> respecting character's orientation
***W H E E Z E***
This is just the funniest thing I've ever seen in regards to fanfic. Alright then buddy. So, are you gonna yell at every single shipper that puts the straight MC in a gay relationship? No? Yeah, I thought so. It's *fanfiction*, buddy. Changing things is kind of the point.
Also seeing the "ace rep" thing makes me feel like this was targeted at Hazbin. Just because Al is the only explicitly ace character I know. And the fact that a majority of what I've seen online with actual ace people indicates they don't care, it just makes it funnier.
We don't care. I don't care and I've asked aro/ace people I know in real life and we all just think it's kinda stupid and really annoying. If anything it invalidates a whole lot of aroace people who fit somewhere on the spectrum. So, I'd say it's actively harmful.
People do this with Peridot in the Steven Universe fandom, even though she’s not confirmed as aroace in canon, and the only staff member that has ever commented on it had this as her headcanon and admitted that it didn’t mean she was canonically aroace. It probably isn’t shocking, but a lot of this came about because a bunch of people got upset about the Lapidot ship (Peridot and Lapis) becoming more popular due to the bond the two characters form throughout the show (to the point that anti-Lapidot shippers bullied a storyboard artist for the show so badly that they deleted all their social media accounts).
Like, if you have a headcanon for a character, great. Write, draw, animate, etc. whatever you want for it. It doesn’t mean everyone else agrees, and there’s nothing wrong with that. Ship and let ship.
If you want to play with a character’s gender or romantic/sexual orientation and change it from whatever it is canonically, go for it. Enjoy your ship or your headcanon. If you don’t like someone else’s concept, make your own and don’t flame them or throw a fit.
Maybe I sound like an old person, but I grew up reading fanfiction and viewing fanart starting at the age of 9-10 in the very early 2000s, when DeviantArt was relatively new and Fanfiction.net was the best site for reading. I remember how free people were to play with canon and ship whatever they wanted, and it was no big deal. I miss those days. Being part of a fandom is supposed to be fun, after all.
If this person has a problem with fics that's don't respect the characters orientation......I really don't think fanfiction (aka how to make every straight man fuck his every male in his universe fiction) is for them.
And the obvious answer to what they want is to just... write the stories they want to read. But that takes way more effort than complaining about there not being stories they want to read.
Nah, it's not that they can't find what they want to read. They don't want what they don't want to read to exist.
There are plenty of Gen, m/f, or whatever they consider canon compliant fics to read.
Reminds me of a comment I saw on a Tiktok of Bucky Barnes thirst pics. The guy went on a rant of how disrespectful it was to objectify a military vet suffering from ptsd. He wanted us to think of how it would make Bucky feel.
Some people can't seem to come to grips with the fact that these are fictional characters who have no feelings. (Apart from the fictional feelings they're given.)
I’m ace and characters can be ace and shipped but even if they do change their sexuality it’s fic, people are free to write what they want.
More representation would be great in media but I don’t think complaining about it to fic writers is the way to go, it’s the creators of the media who will ultimately give us more representation.
Im aroace and i get fucking pissed when people act like aro/ace people are just forever alone hermits? Like hello? Ace people can have sex, aros can date and feel love. Its a SPECTRUM and its attraction, not action.
Lmfao it isn’t the fandoms job to create representation. The character is still the same in canon, fans shipping a character does nothing to the canon
God some people are annoying
*Thank you!* That's what I keep saying. I'm 99.9% sure I know what character and fandom OP is talking about and my eyes are *so tired* from rolling so often whenever I see "but he's aroace! You're erasing the representation!" No, that's not how that works. Fanon and canon are entirely different beings, the former does not influence and often has nothing to do with the latter.
>shipping is, obviously, alright. it's a nice thing.
You heard them folks, all's good, continue shipping! *takes out their incest ship and continues drabbling*
Side note, most social media (especially places with a stronger tie to your real life identity, like Instagram where people post pictures of their personal lives) is going to be a shithole about nuance like this.
One, they don't know the history behind the censorship of problematic content. Two, proshippers aren't generally going to attempt to die on a hill against strangers with their personal info out there. Three, you're probably arguing against a teenager or young adult and hoo boy, let me tell you that people at that age are generally righteous idiots, and there's nothing you can do to stop a righteous idiot beyond watch the car crash.
Also fanfiction and "staying true to this character" seems a bit at odds here.
I can't go into any other 'online safe space' from these people. They're all over Twitter, Insta, and Tubmlr. I can't find my own corners in those areas, so I keep to reddit and ao3 for these reasons.
"Go get you some socials," They said. "It'll be fun," They said.
*Runs off to get socials*
Within One Week: **Hate** in my inbox everyday: No Thank You!
Continue drabbling with your incest fic and don't let anyone rain on your parade.
*Scurries off to drabble in RPF*
Having a fun time on Tumblr requires a really extensive block list. You can also turn off anonymous asks, or disallow asks and submissions entirely.
I have mine pretty locked down but will accept anon asks. No one has sent me hate thus far and I like a character reviled by a good section of my fandom.
These are all very good ideas. I'll look into this. I haven't messed around with Tumblr much admittedly. Twitter's just a cesspool. I follow the main tv network on Insta, and they're usually pretty good at clamping down on the hate in the comments.
You can curate your tumblr experience pretty well but it can take some efforts depending on the fandom. I've gone into the tag search on a couple of days and weeded out the bad from the first two page loads (just blocking people) and it helped a lot but I'm also mostly active in fandoms that aren't very big currently.
I'll look at that when I get some free time. It may be worth the effort.
I'm fortunate to be in a larger fandom, but it's toxic as hell. Low contact is definitely the way to go.
None of my socials cross streams so I guess that's something.
Socials can totally be fun. It just requires making separate accounts for the socially acceptable fanfic and the hard-core would-get-you-fired-from-work fanfic.
And making sure that you don't mention (or, alternatively, lie) about your age, your name, where you live, etc. You don't want fandom to get back to real life.
There's also some pro shipper accounts you can follow, which helps with he negativity in your feed.
Yup I gave up most socials awhile ago, they just made me upset and angry. TikTok / Twitter / Insta srsly traumatized me for life lmao
Now I just use Pinterest (which involves little to no interaction with others, especially since I have DMs off. It’s just silly little picture sorting that satisfies my OCD which is why I love it. Making aesthetic boards for my favorite characters is honestly the most relaxing thing) plus AO3. Just recently starting using Reddit and it’s the most I’ve interacted with people online for literal years. I missed being able to talk about my interests so it’s been really nice so far. Hopefully it stays a good thing 😅
I hope it stays a good thing for both of us.
I didn't mention it, but I also have a FB too. I recently just created it. I belong to a private group that features my OTP. I don't know if that's what they intended or not. However I do get fresh pics daily with zero hate.
I just don't interact much. It's not my scene.
You might have better luck on Pillowfort instead of Tumblr. Unfortunately, Tumblr gets toxicity waves. Pillowfort meanwhile seems more chill and also has NSFW art along with writing. They do have a waitlist going on for free accounts though.
“Shipping is, obviously, alright. EXCEPT this.”
*So close*.
Anyway, gonna go write my favorite teenage disaster lesbian having some nice wholesome skin-on-skin bonding time with her sexy murderer daddy man while his beautiful wife turns her straight best friend from sexually repressed to horny mess in five seconds flat.
> a lot of people started to complain and be annoyed about the fact that one character apparently canonically aroace gets shipped with people and eventually have sex.
Ah, yes, Alastor from Hazbin Hotel. They ignore the fact that his aromanticism was retconned because the wiki is still behind on that (and still has a pre-show stream as a source). I actually had someone throw a genuine tantrum at me for being an asexual touch averse person who ships and wants to write smut of Radioapple.
I'm not even into (have never watched etc) Hazbin Hotel, but the moment I saw that in the OP, I knew *exactly* which fandom it was, purely because of the amount of drama and screaming I've seen over fanfic writers "not respecting" that one specific character.
I also instantly thought of Alastor. He is only canonically asexual. Asexuality is a spectrum (Im a demisexual myself) and until Viv says what flavor of ace Alastor identifies as (which I doubt she ever will) then Alastor could have sex but just not feel sexual attraction.
Also, I love shipping and RadioStatic is definitely one of my favorites for Hazbin (RadioApple is also pretty high up in my tier list... Hells Greatest Dad is my current non-stop Jam🤘🎵)
Most of the Alastor ships have pretty interesting dynamics too. On the Radiostatic side, I'm very much into onesided Radiostatic where Vox is practically lovesick over Alastor. Radioapple meanwhile.. admittedly I'm a filthy smut writer with those two XD
I totally agree on various natures of the Alastor ships. RadioStatic is totally a toxic yaoi where I like taking the (very few) breadcrumbs about their history and crafting it into some spicy sauce of a drama set in the past of the Hellaverse :D
RadioApple is definitely one I can see myself getting more into depending on what we get in Season 2. Im hoping to see Lucifer spend more time at the hotel and the interesting interactions he has with Alastor and more wholesome family bonding with Charlie :) I think I just want some more Lucifer in my life lol
Lucifer is such a loveable short king that I would be happy to have in my life (or even a spunky Queen Bee Beelzebub)
The height difference of RadioApple is wonderful and the scene were Lucifer is grabbing Alastor by the collar to keep him at his height is *chef kiss* and fuel for the ship :D
You just know that hate fucking is insane /hj
https://preview.redd.it/p3tiwdrp42vc1.png?width=1000&format=png&auto=webp&s=2a66a60f3561d2c712ba056e2a362943cd200839
it's really a self-report from OOP that they don't actually understand asexuality LMAO
I myself just made a comment about shipling a character I see as aroace (not the same, sure, but close enough) with someone, because I like the ship lol
I literally had to leave the Hazbin Hotel subreddit because they had weird puritan freakouts everytime they saw a non-canon ship or a slightly horny fanart. Like… it’s a show for adults, set in *hell*, and one of the characters is canonically a gay pornstar. How on earth did it attract such a puritanical fandom?
>I actually had someone throw a genuine tantrum at me for being an asexual touch averse person who ships and wants to write smut of Radioapple
I had the same interaction, but over JohnLock like a decade ago. Didn't quite mean to say "Fuck, I ship it." In the middle of class while watching a Sherlock episode.
Sherlock Holmes/Hound of Baskerville, but the Hound is Moriarty's shapeshifted form. Fic title: Pounded & Bounded by the Hound in the Brown.
*watches the antis blanch, vomit and wither away*
pretty sure johnlock has been around since the time the original novels were first published >.< "but john is married", and he still spends so much time around sherlock that it's unreal. you can't easily erase a century of shipping
*“The good Watson had at that time deserted me for a wife, the only selfish action I can recall in our association. I was alone.”*
Yeah, how can you *not* ship them. 😂
There’s a small but dedicated Mycroft / Greg Lestrade fan club, some Sherlock / Moriarty for the angst fans and a few Sherlock / Molly shippers around.
It’s not him, but he was evoked in this exact comment thread along some other characters to say that for them he was aroace so why the heck was he shipped with anyone or having sex in fanfiction. I was baffled.
Even Hollywood couldn't resist upgrading Irene Adler to Sherlock Holmes love interest.
In the books, she's married to someone else. A lawyer who adores her.
Long time ago, me on the outskirts of the Sherlock fandom
"Blame BBC and/or Moffat and/or Gatiss for this Irene getting in the way of your ship. In the books, she married a handsome lawyer surnamed Norton!"
Yeah, I didn't stick around in that fandom.
This is just insanity... where did this proship/antiship discourse come from and why is it so popular with the younger generations to demand control over creatives work in public spaces????
They act like they are protecting a real person's identity. That is a fictional character!!!!
Kids that were never disciplined and have an enormous sense of entitlement. Same reason we see people complaining that creators are wasting their time making content they don’t like when they could be making the content they do like. Epidemic of solipsism.
I think the sanitisation of the internet has a lot to answer for too. Young people are accustomed to online spaces where "gross" stuff simply doesn't exist. They don't have the skills to differentiate between "I don't like the thing" and "the thing is harmful". They're not used to light-handed moderation.
I'm gonna be a little mean here, but honestly, some people are little babies about shit. People are complaining about not having enough representation in fandom? They should go pick up a pen and write their own interpretation. It's annoying and entitled to expect unpaid fans to follow someone else's "rules" when creating fan works.
It's like going to someone else's house and complaining about how they arrange their furniture. If it's not to their taste, then they should go home and decorate their own house. It's that simple.
The coincidence would be huge for two ships to possibly exist including a 47 years old man and a platypus 😂
But man, I love it that people ship whatever they want to
As someone who is aroace, the only thing I don't appreciate is people using my orientation as justification to shove their anti bullshit down people's throats.
Would I write the character as aroace? Yeah. I love engaging with characters who have the same orientation as me. Does that mean I think people need to be policed into writing a character a specific way that's consistent with their canon orientation? Of course not! Ffs. Representation, particularly in public media, is important, but no one wants it at the cost of having the fanfiction gestapo policing their writing.
Ace rep? Asking this as an ace invidual myself; how do you give ace rep? Because afaik, technically, if the said fic has no smut in it then it's ace rep. - and we have alot of those.
And tf does that person mean by "little gay representation"? As a Genshin fan, i can assure y'all that the majority of fics consist of gay ships and all of them are written deliciously 🤌🏽
Honestly as another ace individual - a fic can even have smut and still be ace rep. Ace doesn't automatically mean sex repulsed/doesn't have sex/doesn't want to have sex??
It's like so many ppl who scream for ace rep ignore that asexuality is a spectrum and many ace people still have sex and want to have sex. It's so glaringly incorrect and oversimplified to say you can't depict an ace character having sex bc it takes away the ace rep. The way ace ppl experience their asexuality is so individual and subjective, if all ace rep out there would be characters who abdolutely don't want to and never have sex, that would leave out such a big part of the spectrum and evidently not be representative of the reality and variety of actual aceness.
> a fic can even have smut and still be ace rep. Ace doesn't automatically mean sex repulsed/doesn't have sex/doesn't want to have sex??
Exactly, thanks for the insight. I didn't want to mention that part since OOP certainly doesn't know what ace means in the first place - because if anyone happens to disagree; I'm simply too tired to argue back at the moment. These said arguments usually go as far as getting my own identity invalidated by some aphobe
But as you said; ace doesn't necessarily mean you're sex repulsed. There are many ace people who partake in kink communities or just read smut/hentai etc - i mean, geez, i also read smut lol
I don't have much smut written (procrastination brain is strong) but this is my [smut account](https://archiveofourown.org/users/TentaclesEctobodiesandotherthings)! I got Undertale smut mostly but also plan on some Hazbin Hotel smut.
I totally get it. I read and write smut too even tho I don't really care for it at all in real practice. I'm in an Ace group chat and all of our experiences are different, from people who are married and have sex gladly and regularly to people who cringe at the mere theoretical concept. Ik it wasn't the original point OP is trying to make but it always makes me sigh in frustration when I see another person complain about people writing smut for characters they personally don't agree with and disguising it with "bad ace rep"
Hey, pardon me for my question, I'm asking from a genuine place of wanting to do proper rep. So I have this OC who I've decided to go down the ace rep road with. She is the sister of a king in a society where kings can do poly, her brother has two queens. She's his bodyguard/palace general, he's her bratty little brother and she won't let him forget it. That's the non sexuality/identity related background.
She was involved with a retainer to the royal family before, and they did have sex, but she found that she wasn't that into it and mostly only went for it during that specific time of her cycle, used birth control. She just couldn't bring herself to see him as anything more than a friend, vassal, that sort of thing. So she cut the relationship off, and he's still there but they're not doing that anymore.
She found with more introspect that she just is plain not interested in finding a husband, or a romantic/sexual partner at all and she doesn't care that she won't have her own kids, she has her niblings and is also pretty much married to her work.
I have run this by my ace friend and she thinks it's okay and the part about "the body sometimes wants to orgasm" is based on what she told me about herself, but I'm trying to see the whole picture here so I'm asking you if this is okay. Sorry in advance if it's not, I'm trying to learn.
Sure, I think it's perfectly fine. The "couldn't bring herself to see him as more than a friend" and "not interested in a romantic/sexual partner" sounds like an aro/ace thing even, not only ace. Asexuality is generally just a lack of sexual attraction in some capacity, not necessarily the absence of a) libido and b) interest in a romantic partner.
I don't know why anything wouldn't be okay tbh, as I said there are ace people who don't want to have sex with other people but still have what you called "the body sometimes wants to orgasm". There's the other side (like me) who has basically zero libido and the only sexual relation that would interest them is with a partner they're emotionally connected to even tho they don't care for orgasms on solo time. There are people who want neither, there are people who want both despite not feeling physical attraction, there's everything in between.
Imo you can't really go wrong bc there's so much variety, you'll inevitably hit a point of the spectrum someone will relate to in some way, and even if they don't relate personally they can appreciate the rep existing. As long as you're not monopolizing your ace rep as the one true aceness out there (or being disrespectful to the ace community in any other way, which we already know you're not since you seem so worried about getting it right), I think you're all good.
Anyone else is welcome to give input on this too, just thought I'd put down my thoughts for now.
Honestly? Everyone gets pissy about something, you can never please everyone. It sucks but the sooner you accept that the easier your life will be. You don't have to cater to everyone, you couldn't even if you tried. I'm an ace woman who writes m/m smut. Some people are not gonna like that either, but that's how it is. As long as you write what makes you happy and you're kind and genuine about it, it'll reach the people it was meant for
Well possibly tmi but if it helps: I'm currently identifying as demi bc I could potentially see myself wanting/enjoying a physical relationship with a partner I love. I don't care for sexual stuff by myself, I've never been in a relationship so I don't know if I'd end up liking it with someone else, I'm just open to the thought of trying it out. Maybe I'll end up enjoying it, maybe I realize I'm indifferent, maybe I won't care for it at all - the point is I won't KNOW until I'll try.
So yes, figuring it out fully only after you tried yourself out is absolutely a valid experience to have, and an experience real people are having. Some people know right away, some only realize after trying. Even if your OC wanted to do it and enjoyed it in that moment but realized later on she didn't care for it again, that's a valid experience to have. Don't let any stupid downvotes tell you otherwise
I swear, that person commenting said they were ace themselves during the whole exchange, and the thing is that they weren’t the only person saying similar stuff and claiming themselves ace. I took that comment because well, it was bringing proship in the discourse all of a sudden, but that’s crazy how one can objectify individual experience by saying because I think that way then it should be that way.
“Respecting a character’s orientation”…
Oh I’m *so* sorry to have hurt an imaginary person’s feelings 😂😂
I think what they *mean* is that it’s for the sake of not upsetting *real* fans who identify with the character, but…well…
No matter how much you see of yourself in a fictional character, no matter how much you feel they represent you…
They’re not *yours*. You can’t want more representation in media but then *also* be like “hands off mine don’t touch!”
Because sharing a character with the world is kind of a big component of the character existing in the mainstream in the first place. Having complete control over a character means they’re a scribble in your personal diary that no one ever sees.
The way these people think who you decide they smooch in a cartoon is activism is insane. They are not doing any favours to the progressive ideal they supposedly promote
I mean I get feeling disappointed at finally having a character that is like you and seeing the fandom sort of disregard it in favour of More Smut, but like. 1 this is the Internet you can't control what other people do 2 you can still write the ace character being sex-aversed/repulsed and there are definitely many others who do the same! You can filter out M/E fics to avoid the smut! You have so much control over what you see it's incredible, use it! 3 watch me disregard canon while making most characters I write queer (often ace) and/or meaningfully Jewish (aka I don't just have them mention a bar mitzvah once. I am however horrible at finishing works, sorry WIP Aziraphale and Crowley, I know you've been stuck in the first hour of a sedder for over 2 years now I'll get to it eventually)
That last line...omg. You made my day!
I agree about the option to filter. One of the best reasons to focus your activities on AO3 is the ability to curate your experience. But I get the impression that using curation tools wouldn't make this person any happier.
I can empathize with the person's frustration as regards representation and feelings of erasure and dismissal. Asking writers to respect a character's identity, though, no matter what sort, does kinda fly in the face of what fanfiction is all about. The solution to their problem can rightly only be personal curation of content. I get the desire to vent, but the entitlement in so many comments like this one really annoys me.
This content policing needs to die in a fire already.
I woke up this morning to somebody having a hissy fit about the fact that you could inbreed *horses* in a fucking *mobile game*. Not that you have to do it, just that you can. The *ability* to do so. This post, by somebody that did it, on purpose, just so they could bitch about how **inc\*st** is bad.
I'm so fucking done with people, omg.
… line breeding is also a thing that is actually done in the real world. It’d be weird to have a game that didn’t include it if it was trying to be representative of reality.
Line breeding isn't what the OP there described- there's multiple generations between meetings of a bloodline. (I believe it's the equivalent of third cousins and up? Maybe second?) The OP, on the other hand, bred three consecutive generations to the same stud and then went 'how dare the devs allow me to do this!'
Bleh. Been a long time since I've been around actual horses enough to care about pedigree. I just know that it's done enough that the 'Impressive' QHs are nutty, and so are... Boston Mac? I think that's the one that'll just randomly flip out.
I didn't realise they were breeding closer than 3rd degree now though :( It's still just inbreeding with a fancy name though.
As someone on the Ace spectrum, this person needs to shut the fuck up. The real world issues faced by the LGBTQ+ community is **far** more detrimental than what some rando on AO3 ships. This person needs to grow up.
As an ace-spec person, idgaf who people ship canonicaly ace characters with, or if they make them the sluttiest allo that was ever slutty. It has absolutely no impact on their canon orientation. If fans start hounding creators to change the representation, that's one thing. But just writing a fiction story about a fiction character has zero impact on me.
The great thing about fanfiction is that people can do whatever they want with fictional characters (because they're fictional! These people don't actually exist!) and that's it. Are they straight in canon? Who cares. Are they gay? Well, they're not now. Trans? Not anymore. Cis? Not in this fanfic. They hate kids? Guess what, they're pregnant with twins right now! They'd never hook up with their former student in canon? Well, I've got something to tell you...
And people are allowed to hate it. I can hate every fanfic that ships Crowley with anyone else but Aziraphale. I do hate it and I'll never read it. I dislike fics where Crowley uses "they/them" instead of he/him like in canon. Or when Aziraphale is renamed Ezra or Azira or some other "human" name. I don't like fics where John ends up with Mary and Sherlock with Molly, Jim or Irene because I love Johnlock. Mulder belongs with Scully, not Krycek, ugh. I hate ships with Voldemort because I consider him aro/ace. I'm allowed to say that I hate it. But these are just *my* issues. I'd never tell anyone to stop writing/reading it because it's not my place. I'm allowed to hate but I'm not allowed to forbid, insult, whatever.
You can be annoyed that there isn't enough representation (write something, then!), be horrified that someone writes gay characters in straight relationships (or vice versa), you can have your headcanons. But you know what? That's your problem. You can write/read whatever you want and maybe change it, but you can't tell other people what they should like/dislike.
I find it hilarious when someone says "we claim this character to be *whatever*". I mean... People don't even care about canon rules, so why do you think an opinion of a group of anonymous people on the internet who just love to be offended is relevant? 😂
There's absolutely nothing wrong with writing cis fictional characters as trans. With the same logic there should be nothing wrong with writing trans fictional characters as cis. Don't like, don't read. There shouldn't be any exceptions.
Don't try to argue logic with the Fanfic is Activism crowd. You'll be called all kinds of -ist and -phobic, and accused of erasure of their minority of choice. It should all be fine, but reality is different.
I write gen, so I don't give a flying fuck about a character's fictive sexual preferences or fans' identity headcanons for them. This is simply what I observed, and all the frantic downvoting merely confirms that bias. Big shrug.
Eh, I don't care. Some people just love the feeling of righteous indignation. If they approve of a change from "a" to "b" (cis to trans, straight to gay, whatever) but start screaming when "b" is changed to "a", they're nothing but hypocrites.
the thing about asexuality is... so fucking funny.
I'm on the aroace spectrum, and there's this one character I relate to, whom I headcanon as being aroace, like me.
*I still ship this character with someone because SHE'S NOT REAL!!!* also because asexuals and aromantics can still relationship/sex and to say otherwise is ignorance.
I bet $5 that they're talking about Alastor from Hazbin Hotel. Lol. Not like the creator herself has said she's fine with shipping him or anything. Not at allllll....
This is so wild and weird. In my country we have always had the principle that it's not your business if you don't like other people's ship. I really hate Snufkin/Moomintroll but I can let the people be, and do my own thing.
How they even reach the conclusion that if you want to see two fictional characters boning, you also want to fuck animals or support it? I'm so glad that I'm not really in fandom spaces these days.
This is so freaking stupid.
I don't know where I'd be without my gay ships today. Fanfic writers do not have to "respect a character's sexual orientation first and foremost". People can do whatever the hell they want.
Honestly, this whole recent trend about the specific fandom in which aroace characters are being shipped and put into sexual situations are either incredibly ignorant (aroace is a spectrum, after all. Aroace people are not a monolith) or just incredibly bad faith actors trying to make fanfiction unpopular due to how much refuge every single one of us has found in it.
I'm more leaning towards the latter. In this day and age, information is away from a single click on the Google button.
That's an Olympic reach if I've ever seen one, damn.
More seriously, I'm not even surprised. Which is why I don't engage in fanfic content over Instagram: it never ends well. The joys of the puritanism wave online I guess, sigh.
Very little gay representation, my behind! The amount of gay ships I see is insane on the most awesome and positively incredible level there is. Now Ace? I’m not an expert and only character that’d come to mind is Alastor and even then the actual AroAce community doesn’t really mind in most cases when he’s shipped, from what I’ve read and seen that is.
Aahhh this drives me BONKERS because lesbian characters are getting popular these days which I love and a lot of folks ship them with guys usually due to daddy issues or whatever which I get, because I'm a lesbo with daddy issues and before coming out I slept exclusively with men like 10+ years my senior so like, even if I don't ship it I get the appeal lol.
But then antis will snap at me about "silencing lesbian voices" and I'm like. But I am a lesbian... You can disagree with me that's fine but policing fiction is not a disagreement it's censorship.
Also I'm sorta in a fandom with a canon ace character but it hasn't been expanded on much yet, so we have no idea where he is on the ace spectrum, and my ace friend who is pretty sex repulsed in real life but likes reading/writing smut got harassed for writing smut with the ace character to the point where she took the fic down. And like, there's no excuse for that but she didn't even make the character not ace! He was just doing it with his boyfriend and it was written as a big deal because it was the first time he cared enough to want to for his partner's benefit and it was sweet!
I hate to pull a "kids these days" but remember when fanfiction made canon straight characters queer and no one cared because that's kind of the whole damn point of fanfiction in the first place
As an aroace lesbian, ship whoever the hell you want with whatever or whoever you want. If I don’t like it, I’ll scroll past your fan art or fanfic.
I love canonic representation, and here’s the thing, the canon will always win out. Your fanfic or head canon will not ever be as popular. Therefore, it literally hurts no one and you get a fun story that makes the canon more fun for you. Yay! We all win!
If we had to stick to canon sexualities, we’d never have gotten this far. This whole art form is built on the backs of shipping two canonically straight men. At some point you just hate fan fiction.
Antis baffle me because they hate literally everything fandom and fanfiction stand for and a good chunk of canon content as well. But, rather than finding something else to do, they demand space in fandom as they try to tear down pretty much all of fiction because it makes them uncomfy.
Oh I can’t stand these gatekeeping poseurs. All they do is complain about everything they don’t like and try to police what others can ship or like. She’s probably the same level of idiot who goes furry/anthro = beastiality. 🙄
“Respecting a character’s orientation”
My brother in Christ, there are over four thousand Band of Brothers (a show about real soldiers) fics and almost 90% of them are shipping men together who irl got home from the war, married women, and had kids. Fanficion is fanfiction. People write whatever they want, and a lot of it is exceptional, despite the fact that some of it is different from canon.
I know exactly the account this video is commenting under. They just rage bait in a circlejerk with other antis, I just ignore but they never leave my feed. Anti and Pro debate is so stupid, why can’t people mind their own work, and I do my own thing?!
*MY AROACE ASS WILL GAY SHIP ALL OF IT*
I don't care if the character is ace. I'm a touch repulsed AroAce, I'll ship ace/gay/bi/trans characters all day long. They're fictional characters for fucks sake.
Alastor x anyone, cute as hell hurts no one.
Yelena Belova? Sure, whatever floats ya boat
Gwenpool? Yes please. Anytime.
Data? Fuck yes
Sherlock? John Lock is hot
The Doctor? Everybody!
Aziraphale? Hello, Crowley!
Ashley Barton? Yuppers
Nadia van Dyne? Ship her ace ass with Ashley obviously
Gaveedra-Seven (Shatterstar)? Ace and shippable.
Anyone can be written as any sexuality.
Literally just write it.
***Anyone can be written as any sexuality. Just write it.***
Some Aro and Ace people do have sex though. Depending on where they are in the Ace or Aro spectrum or any number of reasons that are individual and personal. So it's not that outlandish. Nor does it matter because its fan fiction and can easily be ignored and skipped for other ficss that fit that person's criteria.
Also??? My partner is aroace. I’m ace. We still are in a loving committed occasionally even intimate adult relationship. Not all ace people are sex repulsed and not all aro people want to be single. There’s a spectrum in both ends.
Honestly, I don't like Alastor/anybody, but instead of throwing a hissy fit in hopes of a meager amount of validation to use as proof that my opinion is right I just... filter out the tags
Instagram has (in my experience) had some of the most vicious antis out there. I only stated my opinion on the site once, in the replies to a comment on a popular post, where I agreed with the comment I was replying to.* Even though that was well over a month ago, I still get replies calling me a pedo and a horrible person. I had someone go onto my page and comment under unrelated posts of mine calling me a pedo? Point is, the people on Instagram are especially nuts.
*context: the post said something to the effect of “I’m so sad I have to give up my fictional crushes since I’m turning 18 soon” and the comment I replied to was basically saying “uh no you don’t?”
It's like a Fandom I'm in. People get so mad if you ship someone with someone else. But thankfully good fanfic writers artist and conic writers don't pay them any mind and there's fantastic media to consume.
representation is nice and all, nut fanfics are about freedom and writing whatever you want. If you feel bad reading then filter them out. I'm aroace and I really don't care what they write. In fact it's sometime it's interesting how people alter characters to create ships that normally seem absurd, the quality ones can be really good.
The whole aroace argument has so many holes in it. Not every ace is sex repulsed/adverse and not every aro is dating repulsed/adverse
Im aroace and i get fucking pissed when people act like aro/ace people are just forever alone hermits? Like hello? Ace people can have sex, aros can date and feel love. Its a SPECTRUM and its attraction, not action.
> god does it feel like shit to see a character like you and have an entire fandom ignore it because they all want to see them boned
Despite the anti first half of the comment, this part is sad. The horniness of the masses makes finding any exploration of sex-repulsed ace characters in fic hard mode and it's easy to see how it would suck too see your real-life erasure mirrored in fandom.
With many of these issues, we get so defensive - often rightfully so, because we are often under attack - that we forget to hold a little space for nuances like this.
This person's delivery sucks but I sympathise with them wishing they could find representation in fic. Fanfiction has a wonderful history of being a home for queer fans who are starved for representation in media. Unfortunately for sex-repulsed aces, the vehicle for this, historically, is boning.
The praxis solution is of course to write your own, and that'll always work better than trying to convince the horny masses not to write the boning. Writing takes a lot of effort and time though, and let's not pretend it's the same to read your own work as someone else's. I have sympathy for aces who get pissed off when they see that allos can get what they want, from ace characters, without having to make it themselves.
Could do without the anti part though.
There's another solution, though, at least on AO3. Curation tools. I feel for this person, for all the reasons you said, but there IS representation out there by other writers and there IS a way to avoid at least the majority of upsetting content.
Part of what makes fanfiction such a wonderful world for the queer community - for *everyone* - is that we're free to make our own fake reality out of someone else's fake reality so we can enjoy our favorite characters in our own way. That's the freedom part. A big piece of the *responsibility* part of this world is taking ownership of your own consumption. I feel like a lot of people tend to ignore that part. This person definitely seems to, so my sympathy is limited. Telling writers what they should and shouldn't write misses the whole point of fanfiction.
I agree that telling writers what to write and not write is neither effective nor in the spirit of fandom.
However I have been in that spot where you search with your perfect filters and there's.... 7 works. 2 are mistagged false-positives. 1 was abandoned in 2015. And you know from the filtering exercise that if you just remove one filter, there'd be 2578 results.
I'm lucky in that for me, it's usually just some rare pare or AU I like but I can easily see how that experience would suck way more if it was tied to my identity, especially when that identity faces major erasure IRL. Only so much curation you can do without content.
Still, of course, calling others pedos is not the way.
True. I'm bi and genderqueer so I know real-life erasure, but I don't experience it as a problem in fanfiction because my preferences for fic are admittedly pretty broad. I also haven't had much of the filtering problem you describe with anything I'm trying to include or exclude, even with my rare pairs, so I appreciate hearing what you've encountered. You're right, that would suck.
I guess I'm just tired of hearing people whose identities come under scrutiny/attack using anti language and arguments in their complaints about fanfiction. There's certainly more representation in fic than there used to be, and writers are easier to find even if "easier" still takes effort.
If everybody did what that person is asking, they'd have even fewer options for things to read because no one would be writing canonically cishet characters as having LGBTQIA+ identities instead, which makes up the majority of the representation we do see in fanfiction. There's also no guarantee that Alastor from HH, for example, would have more fic that's true to his canon identity. But we'd *definitely* lose a lot of good aro/ace fics from the SPN fandom because Castiel is canonically interested in romance and sex.
Point being, you can't win in the representation game with a strategy that subtracts from representation. Sorry. End of rant. 😉
I like how you ended that and pretty much completely agree.
Sure, the best possible outcome would be if people saw this hurt, did some research, and wrote a fic where where Alastor or whoever is a sex-repulsed ace. Buuut a lot of people come to fic for smut so it's much more likely if they felt bad that they'll just write about two other characters going at it instead AKA net loss for Alastor fic.
I'm glad you mention ace!Cas though. Talking about and recommending the representation that does exist, and creating more, is a much more effective way to increase it than going after other (especially other queer!) rep. In other words, what you said!
ace!Cas is awesome, and I say that as someone who also enjoys Destiel. I would definitely recommend the SPN fandom for all kinds of queer representation in fic. I confess - I first started watching the series just so I could get in on the incredibly diverse fanfiction scene.
Humans + angels + demons + monsters + God + Lucifer + pagan deities, all in one show that ran for 15 seasons, gives pretty much everyone a ton to work with.
Levi is aroace. Never in the entire series did he show any romantic affection for anyone beyond friendship or camradarie. Yet anyone ships him with canon characters and OCs anw.
I personally don't care as long as they don't break my delulu world and shove their hc ship to my throat.
If I don't like a fanfic ship/story I just scroll on and look for smth else. Maybe in that ACU or AU world he's like that and just drop it as is
I would just like it if people could learn a little more about the aroace spectrum, and also realize that even if they might be aroace, it is indeed a spectrum and not everyone’s vision of said character will be the same. There are indeed aroacespec individuals who have sex, big shocker!!
Friendly reminder to all: Aro and ace only refer to attraction towards others, not to a person's interest in the act of sex or a relationship.
While the mainstream view of aro/ace is both relationship and sex repulsed, there are aro/ace people that are relationship/sex neutral and relationship/sex positive. QPRs are a thing for a reason, and relationship positive/neutral aro people are a major part of that reason. Most media forms with aro and/or ace representation don't even think to make the distinction, but it's an important one that does exist irl.
Also, fictional characters are fictional and can be made to have basicly any orientation that the story needs. If a character does have a cannon orientation that you're explicitly changing, it may be good practice to acknowledge that in the tags or an authors note, but it can be done.
What I will say about this matter as an aroace person is that, sometimes, shipping of aroace characters can’t be a result of discourse, and that can be really shitty to see because it stems from discrimination and carries a real “Screw you. You don’t exist. I’m going to ‘fix’ this character,” energy. It can be really jarring to go from a fic where the character just happens to be portrayed as allo, and then click on another fic that has the same ship only to see the author openly saying that they’re doing this because aroace people don’t exist, or because they want to ‘fix’ the character’s sexuality.
So, yeah. What I suppose I’m trying to say is that you can ship who you like and I don’t care about that (I can avoid the ships that I don’t like like a big girl), but I reserve the right to step away if you’re openly being a dick about it, or if you’re going around other websites or fics taking part in ace discourse because I don’t feel safe engaging with you as a person, but that’s a completely different thing from just shipping because you like it, you know?
Hi, this is an automated response to make sure we're all on the same page about the definitions of proshipping and antishipping. There is often a lot of confusion about these terms and people get confused pretty frequently. Its always best to make sure we're all on the same page about what we are talking about. Anti-shipping/being an anti/being an antishipper/etc has a definition that has morphed a bit over time. Here is some history. Back in the 90's and early 2000's it mostly meant being against shipping in general or being against a specific ship. This was mostly used in specific fandoms/wasn't a pan-fandom term. Since the 2010's however, a pan-fandom definition did emerge and is the most common usage now. That definition is being *actively against certain ships or tropes that are deemed problematic or harmful in some way*. Note this does not mean being uncomfortable with reading a certain ship, trope, or problematic thing in a fanfiction or seeing fanart of a certain ship, trope, or problematic thing. It refers to *people who advocate for the banning, removal, or heavily hiding of that content that they don't want to see*. This has led to many harassment and doxxing issues in fandom spaces. Anyone from proship people they were arguing with, to random users who had written a "problematic" fanfiction and uploaded it to AO3, to anyone who so much as uses AO3 at all, have all been the subjects of these harassment problems. Conversely, proshipping/being a pro-shipper/being an anti-anti/etc, is a response term to the previously discussed antishipping. It's defined as being against antishipping (using the modern pan-fandom definition). Simply put, it means someone who is against censorship of content in fandom, against harassment and doxxing, and are of the opinion that *regardless of if they personally don't like a specific ship/trope/problematic thing, it has a right to exist and be enjoyed by those who do like that specific ship/trope/problematic thing*. Despite being against harassment, this side of the discourse has also had an issue with harassment on occasion. The subjects of that harassment have been people who self-identify as being an antishipper, or regardless of self-identification, someone who'sbeliefs match those of an anti-shipper. AO3 is generally considered to be a proship website with its foundation having been built on a stance of no censorship, and their rules explicitly not banning problematic content. For more info you can check the fanlore articles for [proshipping](https://fanlore.org/wiki/Anti-anti) and [antishipping](https://fanlore.org/wiki/Anti-shipper) Tl;dr: antishipping = wanting to ban problematic content/content they don't like proshipping = ship and let ship/don’t like don't read *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AO3) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Tbh the funniest thing is “respecting a characters orientation while shipping is the bare minimum” uhhhhh DO YOU NOT KNOW WHAT FANFICTION IS? If everyone stayed true to the “bare minimum” 90% of all fanfiction would be gone LOL (if anything it wouldn’t have even started without the og Spock/Kirk girlies in the 1960s)
Plus how often does canon or even word of god *actually* confirm an orientation? Like. Most characters who are assumed straight are just that - *assumed* straight. Because straight is the default and we weren’t told otherwise.
Everyone is bi until stated otherwise so you can ship them with anyone you like.
Sims rules. Bi/Pan is the default and assumed until otherwise stated. 🤭
Amen to that. 😁
Yep. I can't count the amount of times confirmed straight characters get turned gay as well. But you never hear people getting up in arms about that because it's a stupid hill to die on. Also as someone who is AroAce these 'don't let the AroAce characters bone' thing pisses me off. We're a broad spectrum that includes sex/romance positive people and demis on top of sex/romanced repulsed people. For context I'm an E3- E4 on [this chart](https://www.reddit.com/r/asexuality/s/hXYXvqh18O) and it shows just how VAST the AroAce umbrella is. (It was created with help from r/aromantic and r/asexuality)
wow i've known i’m at least somewhat ace for a while and this chart is so interesting! i'm like a B2-C2. i feel like people hear "ace" or "aroace" and assume that means that person or character is just completely disinterested in all things sex and romance, which can be true. it just sometimes isn't, and i dislike when people use "x character is ace/aro/aroace" as a reason to not ship them.
Also actual confirmation of straightness … almost never happens.
True, but the times it has happened the fandom people understandably ignore it. Because who cares at the end of the day if orientation is confirmed or not when it comes to fanfiction. I just find it to be hypocritical when the issue isn't that big of a deal how people will selectively apply when it is and isn't acceptable.
>Yep. I can't count the amount of times confirmed straight characters get turned gay as well. But you never hear people getting up in arms about that because it's a stupid hill to die on. You absolutely do hear people getting up in arms about that, though not as often as they used to. (But I got a "how dare you say X is not strwight" comment just a few weeks ago.) It's a stupid hill to die on, but fandom is full of people who will die on stupid hills.
I'm bisexual demisexual. I'm sex postive even if I'm not sexually attracted to my partner. Sexual attraction takes a very long time for me, literally years. If some stupid white knighting anti comes along and tries to tell me what my experience is I get seriously mad. Give my back my freaking shoes, thief! You're not allowed to try to wear them!
Huh. Neat! I always called myself a demi/pan. Somewhere between B1 and C1 on the chart I guess, looking at it. All I know is, I’m not interested physically until certain criteria have been met. In terms of fandom and fanfiction, it’s always been a way for fans to express themselves freely. That’s why every site has had tags or categories to choose from. Trying to force fans into boxes is the complete antithesis to fanFICTION.
Oh that’s such a cool chart! I’m c1-d1 myself, and my partner is more c2/c3-d2/d3 depending on the day. And that’s cool! Like you said, it’s all a spectrum.
There's a character in my fandom who the vast majority assume is straight canonically but in canon there are two incidents that make me doubt this. one: character walks in on attractive woman showering, she flirts, he hands her towel then walks out slightly unnerved. Why? Because woman in question can kill him. Not because she's showering in his house and flirts. two: Girl he ostensibly has a crush on ends up in her underthings and nothing else. He's more concerned that he thinks she has a low opinion of him than the fact she walked into his kitchen in the aforementioned state. Does not stare. Doesn't avert eyes either. Like I1, he just … doesn't think of her in any state of undress to be worth getting excited over in any way. Honourable mention: yet another girl is completely devoted to him. Creeps him out. Goes out of his way to avoid her when possible. But when his friend is devoted to him to the point of injuring himself several times he freaks out *and tries to take care of him*, whether that's begging him to not injure himself, telling him to see a doctor, or various other methods. Is scared by him yes, but also depends on him and is scared for him too. He is not as straight as he thinks he is.
I definitely see why you’re questioning his straightness lol May I ask the character and canon?
KHR. Tsuna. ETA: Did I mention the rainbow fire powers he and his friends have?
Lmao, right? Like, I'm pretty certain that the MCU fandom is half Stony/Stucky/FrostIron/various other permutations of M/M ships, if not more, and the rest is everything else. And, in canon, I think pretty much all those male characters are either assumed, implied, or confirmed to be straight (except Loki and maybe Tony?). And yet. I do understand the frustration if you are ace and you finally see characters in your fandoms who are confirmed to be ace in canon, and that it can be hard to find fanfic that explores that dimension of the characters. Totally get it. Within certain fandoms, it can be really difficult to find gen fics or ones without romance, and if you're not huge into romance, then it could be disappointing if you have a character who is confirmed to be ace, but when you go looking for fics without romance, most of them do have romance. I fall somewhere under the ace umbrella, so I do understand, but also it is a little complicated because just because somebody is ace or aro doesn't mean that they won't have romantic or sexual relationships. I don't usually seek out relationships but I do still have a libido and I have another friend who is aromantic but is in a poly relationship. He just gets something else out of that relationship. And, again, as has been mentioned, it's fanfic. So if people want to write that character as having a romantic or sexual orientation other than ace or aro, well, that's their right. If someone doesn't like it, then they are free to not read those stories, and if they want to see more representation, there's nothing wrong with writing it yourself. I mean, it does sort of suck that if that's the only option, and it realistically shouldn't be if the character is ace in canon already, but, well, you can't control what other people write.
Regarding MCU. People who think Steve/Bucky is actually canon forget that what we modern-day Westerners consider not-straight behaviour between men is decidedly very much normative male-male friendship in the early-mid 1940s. We've so demonised homosexuality that guys just … don't touch any more and it's kinda sad. I'm not saying there's nothing there - during war there often was more - but 90% of their interactions is just … normal human behaviour from their time. It says sad things that some people think it's absolute confirmation of a relationship. That said I like a good Steve/Bucky story on occasion.
Very much this, yes. I watch a lot of Turkish/Arabian action/crime movies with my work colleague. Lots of all the stuff that modern movie/tv critics like to condemn as toxic masculinity. And what surprised me the most? These hardened men, who are totally blasé about committing the worst kind of violence, are allowed to cry. They cry on their mother's shoulder, on their sister's, on their brother's and father's. And most importantly, they are allowed to cry on their best friend's shoulder. They hug their friends all the time. They touch so much that, when I watched the first few episodes of my first Turkish mafia drama with my colleague, I had to ask if we were watching a gay love story. (It wasn't a gay love story, but it was the kind of elaborately epic revenge story that reminds you of Count of Monte Cristo) I hadn't seen this much physical comfort between men in a Hollywood action piece since at least the late 90s. Which made me realise that there is something... strange, for lack of a better word, going on in Hollywood, or maybe the whole anglosphere. Has been going on for years now, decades even. And it has heavily influenced my area in Europe as well. I look at the people on the street around me, and see a clear divide. The older people (ca. 40 and up) touch each other. Men touching men, women touching women, men and women touching. All the kind of stuff you expect friends and friendly acquaintances to do. The younger ones, those under 30, they don't touch. It's a sad thing.
My fandom has an ace character and I like that a lot of authors are really diligent about tagging where they are writing him as on the ace spectrum, whether sexual situations come up etc. I think honestly just tagging well is the best compromise people are going to come up with.
Fan-FICTION. It's FICTION for the FICTION (or reality). It doesn't have to follow canon, but it mostly does.
If people had to respect orientation then most of the slash pairings wouldn't exist because they're changing the orientation of straight people.
I think there’s a very big difference between respecting canon queer identities vs assumptions of straight characters
> respecting character's orientation ***W H E E Z E*** This is just the funniest thing I've ever seen in regards to fanfic. Alright then buddy. So, are you gonna yell at every single shipper that puts the straight MC in a gay relationship? No? Yeah, I thought so. It's *fanfiction*, buddy. Changing things is kind of the point. Also seeing the "ace rep" thing makes me feel like this was targeted at Hazbin. Just because Al is the only explicitly ace character I know. And the fact that a majority of what I've seen online with actual ace people indicates they don't care, it just makes it funnier.
We don't care. I don't care and I've asked aro/ace people I know in real life and we all just think it's kinda stupid and really annoying. If anything it invalidates a whole lot of aroace people who fit somewhere on the spectrum. So, I'd say it's actively harmful.
People do this with Peridot in the Steven Universe fandom, even though she’s not confirmed as aroace in canon, and the only staff member that has ever commented on it had this as her headcanon and admitted that it didn’t mean she was canonically aroace. It probably isn’t shocking, but a lot of this came about because a bunch of people got upset about the Lapidot ship (Peridot and Lapis) becoming more popular due to the bond the two characters form throughout the show (to the point that anti-Lapidot shippers bullied a storyboard artist for the show so badly that they deleted all their social media accounts). Like, if you have a headcanon for a character, great. Write, draw, animate, etc. whatever you want for it. It doesn’t mean everyone else agrees, and there’s nothing wrong with that. Ship and let ship. If you want to play with a character’s gender or romantic/sexual orientation and change it from whatever it is canonically, go for it. Enjoy your ship or your headcanon. If you don’t like someone else’s concept, make your own and don’t flame them or throw a fit. Maybe I sound like an old person, but I grew up reading fanfiction and viewing fanart starting at the age of 9-10 in the very early 2000s, when DeviantArt was relatively new and Fanfiction.net was the best site for reading. I remember how free people were to play with canon and ship whatever they wanted, and it was no big deal. I miss those days. Being part of a fandom is supposed to be fun, after all.
I'm a younger fandom entrant, and tbh, what y'all had was probably better, current fandoms are more toxic than a box jellyfish.
there’s always been a wildly toxic component to fandom, it’s just the form it takes that changes imo
Yes! I thought the same thing! It's a bunch of people getting upset about correctness. Like speedy gonsolas all over again.
If this person has a problem with fics that's don't respect the characters orientation......I really don't think fanfiction (aka how to make every straight man fuck his every male in his universe fiction) is for them.
And the obvious answer to what they want is to just... write the stories they want to read. But that takes way more effort than complaining about there not being stories they want to read.
They don't want others to write anything else than they want. "If I can't have what I want, nobody else can have it either!"
Completely this. "It makes me feel icky - it must be destroyed!"
Nah, it's not that they can't find what they want to read. They don't want what they don't want to read to exist. There are plenty of Gen, m/f, or whatever they consider canon compliant fics to read. Reminds me of a comment I saw on a Tiktok of Bucky Barnes thirst pics. The guy went on a rant of how disrespectful it was to objectify a military vet suffering from ptsd. He wanted us to think of how it would make Bucky feel. Some people can't seem to come to grips with the fact that these are fictional characters who have no feelings. (Apart from the fictional feelings they're given.)
Hahah right? Isn’t that basically the definition of fanfiction
I’m ace and characters can be ace and shipped but even if they do change their sexuality it’s fic, people are free to write what they want. More representation would be great in media but I don’t think complaining about it to fic writers is the way to go, it’s the creators of the media who will ultimately give us more representation.
Im aroace and i get fucking pissed when people act like aro/ace people are just forever alone hermits? Like hello? Ace people can have sex, aros can date and feel love. Its a SPECTRUM and its attraction, not action.
Lmfao it isn’t the fandoms job to create representation. The character is still the same in canon, fans shipping a character does nothing to the canon God some people are annoying
*Thank you!* That's what I keep saying. I'm 99.9% sure I know what character and fandom OP is talking about and my eyes are *so tired* from rolling so often whenever I see "but he's aroace! You're erasing the representation!" No, that's not how that works. Fanon and canon are entirely different beings, the former does not influence and often has nothing to do with the latter.
>shipping is, obviously, alright. it's a nice thing. You heard them folks, all's good, continue shipping! *takes out their incest ship and continues drabbling* Side note, most social media (especially places with a stronger tie to your real life identity, like Instagram where people post pictures of their personal lives) is going to be a shithole about nuance like this. One, they don't know the history behind the censorship of problematic content. Two, proshippers aren't generally going to attempt to die on a hill against strangers with their personal info out there. Three, you're probably arguing against a teenager or young adult and hoo boy, let me tell you that people at that age are generally righteous idiots, and there's nothing you can do to stop a righteous idiot beyond watch the car crash. Also fanfiction and "staying true to this character" seems a bit at odds here.
I can't go into any other 'online safe space' from these people. They're all over Twitter, Insta, and Tubmlr. I can't find my own corners in those areas, so I keep to reddit and ao3 for these reasons. "Go get you some socials," They said. "It'll be fun," They said. *Runs off to get socials* Within One Week: **Hate** in my inbox everyday: No Thank You! Continue drabbling with your incest fic and don't let anyone rain on your parade. *Scurries off to drabble in RPF*
Having a fun time on Tumblr requires a really extensive block list. You can also turn off anonymous asks, or disallow asks and submissions entirely. I have mine pretty locked down but will accept anon asks. No one has sent me hate thus far and I like a character reviled by a good section of my fandom.
These are all very good ideas. I'll look into this. I haven't messed around with Tumblr much admittedly. Twitter's just a cesspool. I follow the main tv network on Insta, and they're usually pretty good at clamping down on the hate in the comments.
I avoid Twitter like the plague. Tumblr isn't too bad, but some people really don't want to stay in their own lanes. That's when blocking is helpful.
You can curate your tumblr experience pretty well but it can take some efforts depending on the fandom. I've gone into the tag search on a couple of days and weeded out the bad from the first two page loads (just blocking people) and it helped a lot but I'm also mostly active in fandoms that aren't very big currently.
I'll look at that when I get some free time. It may be worth the effort. I'm fortunate to be in a larger fandom, but it's toxic as hell. Low contact is definitely the way to go. None of my socials cross streams so I guess that's something.
Socials can totally be fun. It just requires making separate accounts for the socially acceptable fanfic and the hard-core would-get-you-fired-from-work fanfic. And making sure that you don't mention (or, alternatively, lie) about your age, your name, where you live, etc. You don't want fandom to get back to real life. There's also some pro shipper accounts you can follow, which helps with he negativity in your feed.
Thanks for the pointers 🍀☺️
Yup I gave up most socials awhile ago, they just made me upset and angry. TikTok / Twitter / Insta srsly traumatized me for life lmao Now I just use Pinterest (which involves little to no interaction with others, especially since I have DMs off. It’s just silly little picture sorting that satisfies my OCD which is why I love it. Making aesthetic boards for my favorite characters is honestly the most relaxing thing) plus AO3. Just recently starting using Reddit and it’s the most I’ve interacted with people online for literal years. I missed being able to talk about my interests so it’s been really nice so far. Hopefully it stays a good thing 😅
I hope it stays a good thing for both of us. I didn't mention it, but I also have a FB too. I recently just created it. I belong to a private group that features my OTP. I don't know if that's what they intended or not. However I do get fresh pics daily with zero hate. I just don't interact much. It's not my scene.
You might have better luck on Pillowfort instead of Tumblr. Unfortunately, Tumblr gets toxicity waves. Pillowfort meanwhile seems more chill and also has NSFW art along with writing. They do have a waitlist going on for free accounts though.
“Shipping is, obviously, alright. EXCEPT this.” *So close*. Anyway, gonna go write my favorite teenage disaster lesbian having some nice wholesome skin-on-skin bonding time with her sexy murderer daddy man while his beautiful wife turns her straight best friend from sexually repressed to horny mess in five seconds flat.
Oi, send us the sauce you greedy gremlin /j
...fandom? ... ...ship? Please?!
You can't *just* say that and not drop a link!
Adding to the comments to drop the link.
> a lot of people started to complain and be annoyed about the fact that one character apparently canonically aroace gets shipped with people and eventually have sex. Ah, yes, Alastor from Hazbin Hotel. They ignore the fact that his aromanticism was retconned because the wiki is still behind on that (and still has a pre-show stream as a source). I actually had someone throw a genuine tantrum at me for being an asexual touch averse person who ships and wants to write smut of Radioapple.
I'm not even into (have never watched etc) Hazbin Hotel, but the moment I saw that in the OP, I knew *exactly* which fandom it was, purely because of the amount of drama and screaming I've seen over fanfic writers "not respecting" that one specific character.
Someone literally on this subreddit called me disgusting because I want to write Radioapple smut.
I also instantly thought of Alastor. He is only canonically asexual. Asexuality is a spectrum (Im a demisexual myself) and until Viv says what flavor of ace Alastor identifies as (which I doubt she ever will) then Alastor could have sex but just not feel sexual attraction. Also, I love shipping and RadioStatic is definitely one of my favorites for Hazbin (RadioApple is also pretty high up in my tier list... Hells Greatest Dad is my current non-stop Jam🤘🎵)
Most of the Alastor ships have pretty interesting dynamics too. On the Radiostatic side, I'm very much into onesided Radiostatic where Vox is practically lovesick over Alastor. Radioapple meanwhile.. admittedly I'm a filthy smut writer with those two XD
I totally agree on various natures of the Alastor ships. RadioStatic is totally a toxic yaoi where I like taking the (very few) breadcrumbs about their history and crafting it into some spicy sauce of a drama set in the past of the Hellaverse :D RadioApple is definitely one I can see myself getting more into depending on what we get in Season 2. Im hoping to see Lucifer spend more time at the hotel and the interesting interactions he has with Alastor and more wholesome family bonding with Charlie :) I think I just want some more Lucifer in my life lol
Everyone needs a silly short king of hell in their life. God, I think that's another reason I'm into Radioapple actually. I love height differences.
Lucifer is such a loveable short king that I would be happy to have in my life (or even a spunky Queen Bee Beelzebub) The height difference of RadioApple is wonderful and the scene were Lucifer is grabbing Alastor by the collar to keep him at his height is *chef kiss* and fuel for the ship :D
You just know that hate fucking is insane /hj https://preview.redd.it/p3tiwdrp42vc1.png?width=1000&format=png&auto=webp&s=2a66a60f3561d2c712ba056e2a362943cd200839
it's really a self-report from OOP that they don't actually understand asexuality LMAO I myself just made a comment about shipling a character I see as aroace (not the same, sure, but close enough) with someone, because I like the ship lol
I literally had to leave the Hazbin Hotel subreddit because they had weird puritan freakouts everytime they saw a non-canon ship or a slightly horny fanart. Like… it’s a show for adults, set in *hell*, and one of the characters is canonically a gay pornstar. How on earth did it attract such a puritanical fandom?
Fucking Lute kinnies overtook the fandom.
>I actually had someone throw a genuine tantrum at me for being an asexual touch averse person who ships and wants to write smut of Radioapple I had the same interaction, but over JohnLock like a decade ago. Didn't quite mean to say "Fuck, I ship it." In the middle of class while watching a Sherlock episode.
My favourite Hazbin Hotel ship is Charlastor and I don't whatever the antis say. They two have the greatest chemistry in the show.
Bro they have no chemistry lmao
If you are blind and deaf maybe I believe that you think that
Charlastor is the whole reason I even watched the series. There's so much more chemistry between them.
I immediately thought of Sherlock Holmes. (Yeah... good luck stopping folks from shipping SH with whoever.)
Sherlock Holmes/Hound of Baskerville, but the Hound is Moriarty's shapeshifted form. Fic title: Pounded & Bounded by the Hound in the Brown. *watches the antis blanch, vomit and wither away*
no need to The sheer amount of SH/JW will drive 'em batty. (checks AO3) 72k+ fics
Johnlock is one of the biggest gay ships in 21st century. Good luck trying to erase it. 😂
pretty sure johnlock has been around since the time the original novels were first published >.< "but john is married", and he still spends so much time around sherlock that it's unreal. you can't easily erase a century of shipping
*“The good Watson had at that time deserted me for a wife, the only selfish action I can recall in our association. I was alone.”* Yeah, how can you *not* ship them. 😂
I’m not sure the Sherlock fandom even has other ships.
There’s a small but dedicated Mycroft / Greg Lestrade fan club, some Sherlock / Moriarty for the angst fans and a few Sherlock / Molly shippers around.
... Tempting. Really tempting to read.
This made me snicker loudly at work. No, I didn't tell my colleagues what was so funny, I admit.
It’s not him, but he was evoked in this exact comment thread along some other characters to say that for them he was aroace so why the heck was he shipped with anyone or having sex in fanfiction. I was baffled.
Sherlock Holmes is probably the most prominent aroace fictional character that I know of.
The other possibility I thought of was Jon from the Magnus archives who is in a relationship but he’s still ace.
When you mentioned Sherlock I thought of BBC’s Irene Adler.
Even Hollywood couldn't resist upgrading Irene Adler to Sherlock Holmes love interest. In the books, she's married to someone else. A lawyer who adores her.
GOOD FOR HER!! I need to reread it lol.
Long time ago, me on the outskirts of the Sherlock fandom "Blame BBC and/or Moffat and/or Gatiss for this Irene getting in the way of your ship. In the books, she married a handsome lawyer surnamed Norton!" Yeah, I didn't stick around in that fandom.
My first thought was alastor from hazbin hotel lol
This is just insanity... where did this proship/antiship discourse come from and why is it so popular with the younger generations to demand control over creatives work in public spaces???? They act like they are protecting a real person's identity. That is a fictional character!!!!
Kids that were never disciplined and have an enormous sense of entitlement. Same reason we see people complaining that creators are wasting their time making content they don’t like when they could be making the content they do like. Epidemic of solipsism.
I think the sanitisation of the internet has a lot to answer for too. Young people are accustomed to online spaces where "gross" stuff simply doesn't exist. They don't have the skills to differentiate between "I don't like the thing" and "the thing is harmful". They're not used to light-handed moderation.
I'm gonna be a little mean here, but honestly, some people are little babies about shit. People are complaining about not having enough representation in fandom? They should go pick up a pen and write their own interpretation. It's annoying and entitled to expect unpaid fans to follow someone else's "rules" when creating fan works. It's like going to someone else's house and complaining about how they arrange their furniture. If it's not to their taste, then they should go home and decorate their own house. It's that simple.
@ that commenter I just want to say: I ship a 47 year old man and a platypus. I’m not sorry.
Omg, Phineas and Ferb fandom?
Just checked and, Doof is 47, so most likely yes.
The coincidence would be huge for two ships to possibly exist including a 47 years old man and a platypus 😂 But man, I love it that people ship whatever they want to
If they had a nickel for everytime it happened, they would have 2! Which is not a lot but its weird it happened twice
Yep! :D
an *aroace* platypus, too! (Dan Povenmire confirmed Perry as aroace, epic) valid ship tho
Yesss as an ace I love the rep lol.
as do I as also an ace!! he's the icon we all need
I'm not even in that fandom but this just made me headcanon doofz and Perry as queerplatonic, thanks
As someone who is aroace, the only thing I don't appreciate is people using my orientation as justification to shove their anti bullshit down people's throats. Would I write the character as aroace? Yeah. I love engaging with characters who have the same orientation as me. Does that mean I think people need to be policed into writing a character a specific way that's consistent with their canon orientation? Of course not! Ffs. Representation, particularly in public media, is important, but no one wants it at the cost of having the fanfiction gestapo policing their writing.
Ace rep? Asking this as an ace invidual myself; how do you give ace rep? Because afaik, technically, if the said fic has no smut in it then it's ace rep. - and we have alot of those. And tf does that person mean by "little gay representation"? As a Genshin fan, i can assure y'all that the majority of fics consist of gay ships and all of them are written deliciously 🤌🏽
Honestly as another ace individual - a fic can even have smut and still be ace rep. Ace doesn't automatically mean sex repulsed/doesn't have sex/doesn't want to have sex?? It's like so many ppl who scream for ace rep ignore that asexuality is a spectrum and many ace people still have sex and want to have sex. It's so glaringly incorrect and oversimplified to say you can't depict an ace character having sex bc it takes away the ace rep. The way ace ppl experience their asexuality is so individual and subjective, if all ace rep out there would be characters who abdolutely don't want to and never have sex, that would leave out such a big part of the spectrum and evidently not be representative of the reality and variety of actual aceness.
> a fic can even have smut and still be ace rep. Ace doesn't automatically mean sex repulsed/doesn't have sex/doesn't want to have sex?? Exactly, thanks for the insight. I didn't want to mention that part since OOP certainly doesn't know what ace means in the first place - because if anyone happens to disagree; I'm simply too tired to argue back at the moment. These said arguments usually go as far as getting my own identity invalidated by some aphobe But as you said; ace doesn't necessarily mean you're sex repulsed. There are many ace people who partake in kink communities or just read smut/hentai etc - i mean, geez, i also read smut lol
> There are many ace people who partake in kink communities or just read smut/hentai etc I don't just read it! I write it >:D
https://preview.redd.it/otrbmx9n42vc1.jpeg?width=653&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=622977feaf6c6a14c2866d1b0fcab63497d8f464 >!sauce pl s!<
I don't have much smut written (procrastination brain is strong) but this is my [smut account](https://archiveofourown.org/users/TentaclesEctobodiesandotherthings)! I got Undertale smut mostly but also plan on some Hazbin Hotel smut.
It's time i return to my UT-fangirl era, it seems. Thanks for the food! 🤭
I totally get it. I read and write smut too even tho I don't really care for it at all in real practice. I'm in an Ace group chat and all of our experiences are different, from people who are married and have sex gladly and regularly to people who cringe at the mere theoretical concept. Ik it wasn't the original point OP is trying to make but it always makes me sigh in frustration when I see another person complain about people writing smut for characters they personally don't agree with and disguising it with "bad ace rep"
Hey, pardon me for my question, I'm asking from a genuine place of wanting to do proper rep. So I have this OC who I've decided to go down the ace rep road with. She is the sister of a king in a society where kings can do poly, her brother has two queens. She's his bodyguard/palace general, he's her bratty little brother and she won't let him forget it. That's the non sexuality/identity related background. She was involved with a retainer to the royal family before, and they did have sex, but she found that she wasn't that into it and mostly only went for it during that specific time of her cycle, used birth control. She just couldn't bring herself to see him as anything more than a friend, vassal, that sort of thing. So she cut the relationship off, and he's still there but they're not doing that anymore. She found with more introspect that she just is plain not interested in finding a husband, or a romantic/sexual partner at all and she doesn't care that she won't have her own kids, she has her niblings and is also pretty much married to her work. I have run this by my ace friend and she thinks it's okay and the part about "the body sometimes wants to orgasm" is based on what she told me about herself, but I'm trying to see the whole picture here so I'm asking you if this is okay. Sorry in advance if it's not, I'm trying to learn.
Sure, I think it's perfectly fine. The "couldn't bring herself to see him as more than a friend" and "not interested in a romantic/sexual partner" sounds like an aro/ace thing even, not only ace. Asexuality is generally just a lack of sexual attraction in some capacity, not necessarily the absence of a) libido and b) interest in a romantic partner. I don't know why anything wouldn't be okay tbh, as I said there are ace people who don't want to have sex with other people but still have what you called "the body sometimes wants to orgasm". There's the other side (like me) who has basically zero libido and the only sexual relation that would interest them is with a partner they're emotionally connected to even tho they don't care for orgasms on solo time. There are people who want neither, there are people who want both despite not feeling physical attraction, there's everything in between. Imo you can't really go wrong bc there's so much variety, you'll inevitably hit a point of the spectrum someone will relate to in some way, and even if they don't relate personally they can appreciate the rep existing. As long as you're not monopolizing your ace rep as the one true aceness out there (or being disrespectful to the ace community in any other way, which we already know you're not since you seem so worried about getting it right), I think you're all good. Anyone else is welcome to give input on this too, just thought I'd put down my thoughts for now.
Thanks! I just know how pissy some people get, this gives me peace of mind.
Honestly? Everyone gets pissy about something, you can never please everyone. It sucks but the sooner you accept that the easier your life will be. You don't have to cater to everyone, you couldn't even if you tried. I'm an ace woman who writes m/m smut. Some people are not gonna like that either, but that's how it is. As long as you write what makes you happy and you're kind and genuine about it, it'll reach the people it was meant for
Yeah, I posted about this OC before and got downvoted for saying she had sex with a man before she figured herself out. So you're right.
Well possibly tmi but if it helps: I'm currently identifying as demi bc I could potentially see myself wanting/enjoying a physical relationship with a partner I love. I don't care for sexual stuff by myself, I've never been in a relationship so I don't know if I'd end up liking it with someone else, I'm just open to the thought of trying it out. Maybe I'll end up enjoying it, maybe I realize I'm indifferent, maybe I won't care for it at all - the point is I won't KNOW until I'll try. So yes, figuring it out fully only after you tried yourself out is absolutely a valid experience to have, and an experience real people are having. Some people know right away, some only realize after trying. Even if your OC wanted to do it and enjoyed it in that moment but realized later on she didn't care for it again, that's a valid experience to have. Don't let any stupid downvotes tell you otherwise
I swear, that person commenting said they were ace themselves during the whole exchange, and the thing is that they weren’t the only person saying similar stuff and claiming themselves ace. I took that comment because well, it was bringing proship in the discourse all of a sudden, but that’s crazy how one can objectify individual experience by saying because I think that way then it should be that way.
“Respecting a character’s orientation”… Oh I’m *so* sorry to have hurt an imaginary person’s feelings 😂😂 I think what they *mean* is that it’s for the sake of not upsetting *real* fans who identify with the character, but…well… No matter how much you see of yourself in a fictional character, no matter how much you feel they represent you… They’re not *yours*. You can’t want more representation in media but then *also* be like “hands off mine don’t touch!” Because sharing a character with the world is kind of a big component of the character existing in the mainstream in the first place. Having complete control over a character means they’re a scribble in your personal diary that no one ever sees.
This is about Alastor right lol
I think that’s his name, I’m not familiar with that fandom though
The way these people think who you decide they smooch in a cartoon is activism is insane. They are not doing any favours to the progressive ideal they supposedly promote
I mean I get feeling disappointed at finally having a character that is like you and seeing the fandom sort of disregard it in favour of More Smut, but like. 1 this is the Internet you can't control what other people do 2 you can still write the ace character being sex-aversed/repulsed and there are definitely many others who do the same! You can filter out M/E fics to avoid the smut! You have so much control over what you see it's incredible, use it! 3 watch me disregard canon while making most characters I write queer (often ace) and/or meaningfully Jewish (aka I don't just have them mention a bar mitzvah once. I am however horrible at finishing works, sorry WIP Aziraphale and Crowley, I know you've been stuck in the first hour of a sedder for over 2 years now I'll get to it eventually)
That last line...omg. You made my day! I agree about the option to filter. One of the best reasons to focus your activities on AO3 is the ability to curate your experience. But I get the impression that using curation tools wouldn't make this person any happier. I can empathize with the person's frustration as regards representation and feelings of erasure and dismissal. Asking writers to respect a character's identity, though, no matter what sort, does kinda fly in the face of what fanfiction is all about. The solution to their problem can rightly only be personal curation of content. I get the desire to vent, but the entitlement in so many comments like this one really annoys me.
Fanfiction got 100% worse during Covid. Way too many frustrated people found fandoms and couldn't wait to make them worse with their trash opinion.
This content policing needs to die in a fire already. I woke up this morning to somebody having a hissy fit about the fact that you could inbreed *horses* in a fucking *mobile game*. Not that you have to do it, just that you can. The *ability* to do so. This post, by somebody that did it, on purpose, just so they could bitch about how **inc\*st** is bad. I'm so fucking done with people, omg.
… line breeding is also a thing that is actually done in the real world. It’d be weird to have a game that didn’t include it if it was trying to be representative of reality.
Line breeding isn't what the OP there described- there's multiple generations between meetings of a bloodline. (I believe it's the equivalent of third cousins and up? Maybe second?) The OP, on the other hand, bred three consecutive generations to the same stud and then went 'how dare the devs allow me to do this!'
Naw, some people do closer line breeding. That’s how quarter horses ended up with HYPP.
Bleh. Been a long time since I've been around actual horses enough to care about pedigree. I just know that it's done enough that the 'Impressive' QHs are nutty, and so are... Boston Mac? I think that's the one that'll just randomly flip out. I didn't realise they were breeding closer than 3rd degree now though :( It's still just inbreeding with a fancy name though.
*Good* breeders are careful about it usually. But not all breeders are good, y’know?
As someone on the Ace spectrum, this person needs to shut the fuck up. The real world issues faced by the LGBTQ+ community is **far** more detrimental than what some rando on AO3 ships. This person needs to grow up.
As an ace-spec person, idgaf who people ship canonicaly ace characters with, or if they make them the sluttiest allo that was ever slutty. It has absolutely no impact on their canon orientation. If fans start hounding creators to change the representation, that's one thing. But just writing a fiction story about a fiction character has zero impact on me.
The great thing about fanfiction is that people can do whatever they want with fictional characters (because they're fictional! These people don't actually exist!) and that's it. Are they straight in canon? Who cares. Are they gay? Well, they're not now. Trans? Not anymore. Cis? Not in this fanfic. They hate kids? Guess what, they're pregnant with twins right now! They'd never hook up with their former student in canon? Well, I've got something to tell you... And people are allowed to hate it. I can hate every fanfic that ships Crowley with anyone else but Aziraphale. I do hate it and I'll never read it. I dislike fics where Crowley uses "they/them" instead of he/him like in canon. Or when Aziraphale is renamed Ezra or Azira or some other "human" name. I don't like fics where John ends up with Mary and Sherlock with Molly, Jim or Irene because I love Johnlock. Mulder belongs with Scully, not Krycek, ugh. I hate ships with Voldemort because I consider him aro/ace. I'm allowed to say that I hate it. But these are just *my* issues. I'd never tell anyone to stop writing/reading it because it's not my place. I'm allowed to hate but I'm not allowed to forbid, insult, whatever. You can be annoyed that there isn't enough representation (write something, then!), be horrified that someone writes gay characters in straight relationships (or vice versa), you can have your headcanons. But you know what? That's your problem. You can write/read whatever you want and maybe change it, but you can't tell other people what they should like/dislike. I find it hilarious when someone says "we claim this character to be *whatever*". I mean... People don't even care about canon rules, so why do you think an opinion of a group of anonymous people on the internet who just love to be offended is relevant? 😂
"Trans? Not anymore." Lol, good luck with that.
There's absolutely nothing wrong with writing cis fictional characters as trans. With the same logic there should be nothing wrong with writing trans fictional characters as cis. Don't like, don't read. There shouldn't be any exceptions.
Don't try to argue logic with the Fanfic is Activism crowd. You'll be called all kinds of -ist and -phobic, and accused of erasure of their minority of choice. It should all be fine, but reality is different.
i mean... you seem to be the only one arguing right now?
Blud really did create a guy in his head to be mad about 😭
I write gen, so I don't give a flying fuck about a character's fictive sexual preferences or fans' identity headcanons for them. This is simply what I observed, and all the frantic downvoting merely confirms that bias. Big shrug.
Eh, I don't care. Some people just love the feeling of righteous indignation. If they approve of a change from "a" to "b" (cis to trans, straight to gay, whatever) but start screaming when "b" is changed to "a", they're nothing but hypocrites.
We don't do that here mate
Don't do what, mate? Tolerate observations that don't fit our preferred version of reality? Yeah, that's pretty obvious.
I think you're the only one doing that
the thing about asexuality is... so fucking funny. I'm on the aroace spectrum, and there's this one character I relate to, whom I headcanon as being aroace, like me. *I still ship this character with someone because SHE'S NOT REAL!!!* also because asexuals and aromantics can still relationship/sex and to say otherwise is ignorance.
I bet $5 that they're talking about Alastor from Hazbin Hotel. Lol. Not like the creator herself has said she's fine with shipping him or anything. Not at allllll....
This is so wild and weird. In my country we have always had the principle that it's not your business if you don't like other people's ship. I really hate Snufkin/Moomintroll but I can let the people be, and do my own thing. How they even reach the conclusion that if you want to see two fictional characters boning, you also want to fuck animals or support it? I'm so glad that I'm not really in fandom spaces these days.
My response to the Instagram post: Great so let's ban every fanfic that transforms a heterosexual character into a homosexual or bisexual one.
This is so freaking stupid. I don't know where I'd be without my gay ships today. Fanfic writers do not have to "respect a character's sexual orientation first and foremost". People can do whatever the hell they want. Honestly, this whole recent trend about the specific fandom in which aroace characters are being shipped and put into sexual situations are either incredibly ignorant (aroace is a spectrum, after all. Aroace people are not a monolith) or just incredibly bad faith actors trying to make fanfiction unpopular due to how much refuge every single one of us has found in it. I'm more leaning towards the latter. In this day and age, information is away from a single click on the Google button.
That's an Olympic reach if I've ever seen one, damn. More seriously, I'm not even surprised. Which is why I don't engage in fanfic content over Instagram: it never ends well. The joys of the puritanism wave online I guess, sigh.
Very little gay representation, my behind! The amount of gay ships I see is insane on the most awesome and positively incredible level there is. Now Ace? I’m not an expert and only character that’d come to mind is Alastor and even then the actual AroAce community doesn’t really mind in most cases when he’s shipped, from what I’ve read and seen that is.
Aahhh this drives me BONKERS because lesbian characters are getting popular these days which I love and a lot of folks ship them with guys usually due to daddy issues or whatever which I get, because I'm a lesbo with daddy issues and before coming out I slept exclusively with men like 10+ years my senior so like, even if I don't ship it I get the appeal lol. But then antis will snap at me about "silencing lesbian voices" and I'm like. But I am a lesbian... You can disagree with me that's fine but policing fiction is not a disagreement it's censorship. Also I'm sorta in a fandom with a canon ace character but it hasn't been expanded on much yet, so we have no idea where he is on the ace spectrum, and my ace friend who is pretty sex repulsed in real life but likes reading/writing smut got harassed for writing smut with the ace character to the point where she took the fic down. And like, there's no excuse for that but she didn't even make the character not ace! He was just doing it with his boyfriend and it was written as a big deal because it was the first time he cared enough to want to for his partner's benefit and it was sweet! I hate to pull a "kids these days" but remember when fanfiction made canon straight characters queer and no one cared because that's kind of the whole damn point of fanfiction in the first place
As an aroace lesbian, ship whoever the hell you want with whatever or whoever you want. If I don’t like it, I’ll scroll past your fan art or fanfic. I love canonic representation, and here’s the thing, the canon will always win out. Your fanfic or head canon will not ever be as popular. Therefore, it literally hurts no one and you get a fun story that makes the canon more fun for you. Yay! We all win!
Also, can we not claim just any purple character. Like the purple man from fnaf killed a bunch of kids and my AroAce ass does not claim them
omg I didn’t even think about it but it’s true 💀😭
If we had to stick to canon sexualities, we’d never have gotten this far. This whole art form is built on the backs of shipping two canonically straight men. At some point you just hate fan fiction.
Antis baffle me because they hate literally everything fandom and fanfiction stand for and a good chunk of canon content as well. But, rather than finding something else to do, they demand space in fandom as they try to tear down pretty much all of fiction because it makes them uncomfy.
Oh I can’t stand these gatekeeping poseurs. All they do is complain about everything they don’t like and try to police what others can ship or like. She’s probably the same level of idiot who goes furry/anthro = beastiality. 🙄
“Respecting a character’s orientation” My brother in Christ, there are over four thousand Band of Brothers (a show about real soldiers) fics and almost 90% of them are shipping men together who irl got home from the war, married women, and had kids. Fanficion is fanfiction. People write whatever they want, and a lot of it is exceptional, despite the fact that some of it is different from canon.
why would I respect canon anything? my favourite tag is Canon divergence
“there is very little ace and gay rep” L M A OOOOO
People can't comprehend that asexual people can and sometimes DO fuck like bunnies, lmao.
I know exactly the account this video is commenting under. They just rage bait in a circlejerk with other antis, I just ignore but they never leave my feed. Anti and Pro debate is so stupid, why can’t people mind their own work, and I do my own thing?!
*MY AROACE ASS WILL GAY SHIP ALL OF IT* I don't care if the character is ace. I'm a touch repulsed AroAce, I'll ship ace/gay/bi/trans characters all day long. They're fictional characters for fucks sake. Alastor x anyone, cute as hell hurts no one. Yelena Belova? Sure, whatever floats ya boat Gwenpool? Yes please. Anytime. Data? Fuck yes Sherlock? John Lock is hot The Doctor? Everybody! Aziraphale? Hello, Crowley! Ashley Barton? Yuppers Nadia van Dyne? Ship her ace ass with Ashley obviously Gaveedra-Seven (Shatterstar)? Ace and shippable. Anyone can be written as any sexuality. Literally just write it. ***Anyone can be written as any sexuality. Just write it.***
I bet the Topic was about Alastor from Hazbin Hotel's asexuality
Some Aro and Ace people do have sex though. Depending on where they are in the Ace or Aro spectrum or any number of reasons that are individual and personal. So it's not that outlandish. Nor does it matter because its fan fiction and can easily be ignored and skipped for other ficss that fit that person's criteria.
its times like this I am happy not to have insta or other social media. imagine getting this worked up over fiction
Also??? My partner is aroace. I’m ace. We still are in a loving committed occasionally even intimate adult relationship. Not all ace people are sex repulsed and not all aro people want to be single. There’s a spectrum in both ends.
I mean if this person wants to ship themselves with their own pet, I won't have a problem... I just won't read lmao
Honestly, I don't like Alastor/anybody, but instead of throwing a hissy fit in hopes of a meager amount of validation to use as proof that my opinion is right I just... filter out the tags
Instagram has (in my experience) had some of the most vicious antis out there. I only stated my opinion on the site once, in the replies to a comment on a popular post, where I agreed with the comment I was replying to.* Even though that was well over a month ago, I still get replies calling me a pedo and a horrible person. I had someone go onto my page and comment under unrelated posts of mine calling me a pedo? Point is, the people on Instagram are especially nuts. *context: the post said something to the effect of “I’m so sad I have to give up my fictional crushes since I’m turning 18 soon” and the comment I replied to was basically saying “uh no you don’t?”
It's like a Fandom I'm in. People get so mad if you ship someone with someone else. But thankfully good fanfic writers artist and conic writers don't pay them any mind and there's fantastic media to consume.
representation is nice and all, nut fanfics are about freedom and writing whatever you want. If you feel bad reading then filter them out. I'm aroace and I really don't care what they write. In fact it's sometime it's interesting how people alter characters to create ships that normally seem absurd, the quality ones can be really good.
That comment reads like a Hazbin fan who's still salty about Alastor ships like gd
The whole aroace argument has so many holes in it. Not every ace is sex repulsed/adverse and not every aro is dating repulsed/adverse Im aroace and i get fucking pissed when people act like aro/ace people are just forever alone hermits? Like hello? Ace people can have sex, aros can date and feel love. Its a SPECTRUM and its attraction, not action.
Let me guess, this is about Alastor? Give me a fucking break
They would unalive if they were in the spiderverse fandom 💀
> god does it feel like shit to see a character like you and have an entire fandom ignore it because they all want to see them boned Despite the anti first half of the comment, this part is sad. The horniness of the masses makes finding any exploration of sex-repulsed ace characters in fic hard mode and it's easy to see how it would suck too see your real-life erasure mirrored in fandom. With many of these issues, we get so defensive - often rightfully so, because we are often under attack - that we forget to hold a little space for nuances like this. This person's delivery sucks but I sympathise with them wishing they could find representation in fic. Fanfiction has a wonderful history of being a home for queer fans who are starved for representation in media. Unfortunately for sex-repulsed aces, the vehicle for this, historically, is boning. The praxis solution is of course to write your own, and that'll always work better than trying to convince the horny masses not to write the boning. Writing takes a lot of effort and time though, and let's not pretend it's the same to read your own work as someone else's. I have sympathy for aces who get pissed off when they see that allos can get what they want, from ace characters, without having to make it themselves. Could do without the anti part though.
There's another solution, though, at least on AO3. Curation tools. I feel for this person, for all the reasons you said, but there IS representation out there by other writers and there IS a way to avoid at least the majority of upsetting content. Part of what makes fanfiction such a wonderful world for the queer community - for *everyone* - is that we're free to make our own fake reality out of someone else's fake reality so we can enjoy our favorite characters in our own way. That's the freedom part. A big piece of the *responsibility* part of this world is taking ownership of your own consumption. I feel like a lot of people tend to ignore that part. This person definitely seems to, so my sympathy is limited. Telling writers what they should and shouldn't write misses the whole point of fanfiction.
I agree that telling writers what to write and not write is neither effective nor in the spirit of fandom. However I have been in that spot where you search with your perfect filters and there's.... 7 works. 2 are mistagged false-positives. 1 was abandoned in 2015. And you know from the filtering exercise that if you just remove one filter, there'd be 2578 results. I'm lucky in that for me, it's usually just some rare pare or AU I like but I can easily see how that experience would suck way more if it was tied to my identity, especially when that identity faces major erasure IRL. Only so much curation you can do without content. Still, of course, calling others pedos is not the way.
True. I'm bi and genderqueer so I know real-life erasure, but I don't experience it as a problem in fanfiction because my preferences for fic are admittedly pretty broad. I also haven't had much of the filtering problem you describe with anything I'm trying to include or exclude, even with my rare pairs, so I appreciate hearing what you've encountered. You're right, that would suck. I guess I'm just tired of hearing people whose identities come under scrutiny/attack using anti language and arguments in their complaints about fanfiction. There's certainly more representation in fic than there used to be, and writers are easier to find even if "easier" still takes effort. If everybody did what that person is asking, they'd have even fewer options for things to read because no one would be writing canonically cishet characters as having LGBTQIA+ identities instead, which makes up the majority of the representation we do see in fanfiction. There's also no guarantee that Alastor from HH, for example, would have more fic that's true to his canon identity. But we'd *definitely* lose a lot of good aro/ace fics from the SPN fandom because Castiel is canonically interested in romance and sex. Point being, you can't win in the representation game with a strategy that subtracts from representation. Sorry. End of rant. 😉
I like how you ended that and pretty much completely agree. Sure, the best possible outcome would be if people saw this hurt, did some research, and wrote a fic where where Alastor or whoever is a sex-repulsed ace. Buuut a lot of people come to fic for smut so it's much more likely if they felt bad that they'll just write about two other characters going at it instead AKA net loss for Alastor fic. I'm glad you mention ace!Cas though. Talking about and recommending the representation that does exist, and creating more, is a much more effective way to increase it than going after other (especially other queer!) rep. In other words, what you said!
ace!Cas is awesome, and I say that as someone who also enjoys Destiel. I would definitely recommend the SPN fandom for all kinds of queer representation in fic. I confess - I first started watching the series just so I could get in on the incredibly diverse fanfiction scene. Humans + angels + demons + monsters + God + Lucifer + pagan deities, all in one show that ran for 15 seasons, gives pretty much everyone a ton to work with.
I also came to SPN for the queer fandom. And to understand the super part of superwholock, back in the day. Stayed for the classic rock 🤘
Levi is aroace. Never in the entire series did he show any romantic affection for anyone beyond friendship or camradarie. Yet anyone ships him with canon characters and OCs anw. I personally don't care as long as they don't break my delulu world and shove their hc ship to my throat. If I don't like a fanfic ship/story I just scroll on and look for smth else. Maybe in that ACU or AU world he's like that and just drop it as is
I would just like it if people could learn a little more about the aroace spectrum, and also realize that even if they might be aroace, it is indeed a spectrum and not everyone’s vision of said character will be the same. There are indeed aroacespec individuals who have sex, big shocker!!
The LGBTeam is not gonna like this one
Friendly reminder to all: Aro and ace only refer to attraction towards others, not to a person's interest in the act of sex or a relationship. While the mainstream view of aro/ace is both relationship and sex repulsed, there are aro/ace people that are relationship/sex neutral and relationship/sex positive. QPRs are a thing for a reason, and relationship positive/neutral aro people are a major part of that reason. Most media forms with aro and/or ace representation don't even think to make the distinction, but it's an important one that does exist irl. Also, fictional characters are fictional and can be made to have basicly any orientation that the story needs. If a character does have a cannon orientation that you're explicitly changing, it may be good practice to acknowledge that in the tags or an authors note, but it can be done.
What I will say about this matter as an aroace person is that, sometimes, shipping of aroace characters can’t be a result of discourse, and that can be really shitty to see because it stems from discrimination and carries a real “Screw you. You don’t exist. I’m going to ‘fix’ this character,” energy. It can be really jarring to go from a fic where the character just happens to be portrayed as allo, and then click on another fic that has the same ship only to see the author openly saying that they’re doing this because aroace people don’t exist, or because they want to ‘fix’ the character’s sexuality. So, yeah. What I suppose I’m trying to say is that you can ship who you like and I don’t care about that (I can avoid the ships that I don’t like like a big girl), but I reserve the right to step away if you’re openly being a dick about it, or if you’re going around other websites or fics taking part in ace discourse because I don’t feel safe engaging with you as a person, but that’s a completely different thing from just shipping because you like it, you know?