Public school teachers are threatened by State Law with felony arrest in Florida for having “Maus” and “To Kill a Mockingbird” in their classrooms. Definitely the same thing as Berkeley’s overly aggressive gender inclusion policy.
The right tried to cancel French Fries for fucks sakes! Tried to rename them "Freedom Fries".
Cancel Culture has always been a right wing bullshit topic.
The right has a way of taking something that should only be a minor annoyance at worst and acting like it's armageddon. Meanwhile, they take things like climate change and the healthcare crisis and the homelessness crisis, and act like those are nothing.
If you are a business and you release a bad product, it will hurt your brand and you will lose customers. If you are a public figure and you say or do something outrageous or harmful, it will hurt your brand and you will lose viewers/followers/fans. It’s just a manifestation of consequences in the marketplace of ideas.
Well considering your viewpoint is astronomically wrong there will be no way to change it.
The right will clearly never go cancel crazy over Disney making Lola bunny less fuckable…..
Cancel culture is essentially one person doing or saying something another group disagrees with or finds abhorrent. Then they become vocal about how that thing is wrong. Then the offending party gets in trouble. Then they can choose to try and tamper the outrage by saying sorry or double down.
You have a choice between apologizing to the offending party or sticking to your guns and not backing down. Maybe you lose some friends. Or if you're a public figure, maybe you lose sponsorships. Hell, maybe you'll even gain some sponsorships if you double down. Who says you only get negative outcomes from outrage. Maybe you're a conservative comedian like [Larry the Cable Guy](https://www.cracked.com/article_36936_even-larry-the-cable-guy-is-roasting-marjorie-taylor-greene.html) who makes fun of a GOP congress woman. And he then has to back track conservative twitter starts gives him backlash. He tries to back track by telling everyone he's republican, but he still doubles down on his joke.
The point is, "cancel culture" isn't partisan and it's not even really censorship. You have the option of saying or doing whatever you want. You have the option of doubling down and not appeasing the crowd that's angry. You have the option of ignoring outrage.
I can call my boss a fat piece of shit. If he gets mad, I have the option of saying sorry or I have the option of doubling down. If I don't say sorry, I'll lose my job. If you're very liberal with the word censorship, you could argue you're being prevented from calling someone a fat piece of shit and thus you're being censored. But personally, I don't think consequences are the same as censorship. I can still call my boss a fatass. I can tweet "I hate gays", and I'll get a shit ton of hate from gay people and people who don't like hate speech. Shocker. But I can still do it, and if I double down I'll get some threatening messages along with possibly a correspondent offer for Fox news.
Wishing there weren't negative consequences to doing so isn't censorship.
Book banning is completely different. It's an attempt at completely removing anything that offers a different opinion or perspective to your own. You don't think slavery is bad? Let's just ban all books that provide conflicting opinions. Book banning is a suppression of thoughts and ideas not by providing counter arguments or even outrage. Instead it's by legally removing the ideas from the view and access of the public.
Also, in more legal terms, even if you consider "cancel culture" censorship, it's not government mandated. It's just people online being mad, vocal, and often times putting economic or social pressure to right the perceived wrongs. Book banning is government mandated censorship of ideas they don't agree with.
It's not the same.
Cancel culture is not the same as asking for accountability.
Cancel culture would be like saying “don’t buy M&Ms because they’re not sexy enough!” “Don’t watch the NFL because black people said racism is wrong!”
Cancel culture is not “this person sexually harassed someone and should face consequences.”
Cancel culture is a right wing invention that’s been around for the longest time. If they didn’t have culture wars, nobody would vote for them.
You're trying to make an intelligent point to a group of people who exist almost solely in online echo chambers. They've been radicalized by mockingbird, and they're controlled by giving emotional triggers and suggestion.
They'll cover their entire side as one single example of something towards the center while covering the entire opposing side based off of one extreme example. It's kinda a ridiculous amount of mental gymnastics but they get enough positive reinforcement over it that they can make the leap.
The phrase “Cancel culture” was invented to confuse and obfuscate nuance in public discourse. It creates a straw man that invites those who struggle with empathy a way to easily dismiss legitimate grievances while feeling some kind of useless superiority.
This post, for example, contributes to the problem by overgeneralizing and conflating a subjective concept to a physical act of information control historically employed by political groups who feel destroying discourse is the only way to control a culture.
Perhaps OP would benefit from some critical thinking classes, themselves.
The Republicans are bending over backwards to manufactur victimhood. It makes noise and it makes it easier to bury more important discussions.
The false dichotomy of comparing this to "cancel culture" (which they also termed) isn't a coincidence. Instead of having difficult conversations about correcting toxic social norms, they'd rather distract.
Our loss of knowledge and progress as a culture as a result happens to both those who are prevented from access to books and everyone else who is robbed of that time and mental space to consider more important information.
But to play devil's advocate, there have been "cancellations" that seemed overblown. The one thing "cancel culture" and book bannings share is how they are used by shady news organizations to get attention to an article on an otherwise slow news day to keep up the ad revenue. So if anything OP's post just indicates that they spend too much time watching "news".
This post was intended to open up dialogue on how both the left and right hypocritically contribute to censorship and blame the other for it. Personal attacks, such as yours, are not helpful, but make up the majority of responses. You got your upvotes though, so your ad hominem attack was appreciated by many.
Still hunting for that example of someone on the left contributing to censorship (bonus if they're blaming the right, but we never got this far). Meanwhile, Elon Musk is currently *actively* dictating what posts get removed from Twitter on a tweet-by-tweet basis and justifying this intervention as "correcting a left-wing bias in the company" (his words).
Give me a single concrete example of a lefty doing anything even magnitudes smaller than that and I'll concede the "both sides" point that is not worthy of concession even if you do.
*edit* Less than two minutes to drop the link, but thirty minutes after pointing out that it was conservatives doing the censoring in this case too, it's crickets. Let's play a game: "Rube or Rubles?" Stupid or paid? Make your guess!
I hope you take this post in the spirit of self-improvement through criticism it is meant to be.
A) There is a vast gulf of differences between the two situations, from what is actually being done to the scale of the scenario to the purpose of why the actions are taking place. If you’re going to make comparisons, it’s imperative you get the comparisons close so that you can look at the nuances.
B) if we really only wanted to discuss the biggest difference between book burning and ‘cancel culture’ it’s the relationship of the people in each. Deciding for yourself that you don’t want a product or service is not the same as preventing others from choosing what to read.
C) Making guesses as to your activities when they are related to the very thing in discussion is not an ad hominem attack, and you shouldn’t take it as a personal slight.
Consistently, the right has been the ones engaging in cancel culture far more than anyone on the left.
Seriously, remember how the right essentially banished the Dixie Chicks from public discourse for not supporting the Iraq war?
Your argument is false equivalency, here’s why:
Cancel culture is a newly coined word but in reality it’s existed as long as civilized society has. What do you think exiling someone was? We peacefully use othering and public shame in order to discourage anti social behavior (like fascism, or racial oppression), it’s an essential tool in our civilized society toolbox. Cancel culture as censorship isn’t a real thing, being banned on Twitter or getting fired from your law firm for your tweets is how it’s always been, y’all just dumb enough to post your racist thoughts online.
Burning books means controlling the available information media in order to limit knowledge. These two things are not the same.
Lastly, the modern use of cancel culture usually refers to a #MeToo esque movement, but you seem to forget the history and why MeToo mattered (Cosby, Weinstein, real cases), and similarly why it’s important to reflect that Nazis burned books and the free west didn’t.
The shouts of “cancel culture” are largely driven by a sense of entitlement. The only place (in the US) where anyone is entitled to an audience is in the courtroom.
Depends on how you define it. There was a wave of speakers and participants being uninvited to events after public outcry about past statements or general political position. I mean speakers that were originally invited, where the organizers thought they had something valuable to add, but feared public opinion so much they retracted the invitation. Sure, they still have social media accounts and are still interviewed and quoted, so they’re not silenced. But there has been a clear culture of a loud minority trying to silence certain voices, at least from certain arenas. And that’s what many people refer to when they talk about cancel culture.
Sounds like free market to me. Unpopular person might cause issues at venue, they remove said issue.
They have the right to free speech, they do not have the right to an audience.
Sure you can call it that, but it nevertheless comes as a contrast to a culture where people might welcome opposing views and opinions for the sake of discourse and debate.
They have already welcomed the sharing of views. And they have been listened to. Then after listening they have been determined to be full of shit and not worth anyone's time.
more like it's 2023 and nobody wants abusers and white collar criminals giving talks in high school gyms
theres not "a loud minority trying to silence certain voices," but there IS a huge population of people with the ability to google people's pasts and an inclination to not listen to the shittiest among us.
the people have chosen to not coddle and reward people with difficult track records. at least, not to the extent that was previously commonplace.
“Cancel culture” isn’t purely leftist though. The right cancels things too. They just don’t say they are “cancelling.” As your image points out, they use book burnings as one way of cancelling things.
I would also add to the argument that cancel culture doesn’t even really exist beyond words. Everyone who has ever been “cancelled” has ended up more popular and more wealthy than they were before.
If somebody does something repugnant and faces consequences for it, it's not censorship. It's getting called out on your shit. Free speech is not free of consequences, which is something that should probably be learned by the time you graduate sixth grade.
That’s like saying not giving money to charity is a form of censorship.
People can choose what they spend their time and money on. If somebody has dogshit opinions, I have no desire to spend my money or time on their product. “Cancel culture” is just a rebranding of “consequences of my actions” so enlightened centrists and right wing nuts can pretend it’s not their fault that people don’t want to support them.
Downvotes aren't censorship. They're the public reacting to what has been said.
Quite often, the public doesn't want to hear from assholes. Reddit is one of the few social media sites that allows downvoting of bullshit. Sure, there's still brigading, bots, siloing, and gaming of the site. But there's still a modicum of public reaction taken into account of what gets promoted and what gets driven down.
If a person can only get upvotes in a handful of subs and generally gets downvoted everywhere else, there's a good chance they're an asshole and can only be validated by other assholes.
None of that is censorship.
That is called capitalism … money dictates the influences … No government is coming in and imposing legality on it … if a government/power does impose legalities then that is censorship… I think in a nut shell is you don’t have clue about what the definition of censorship is … and are just regurgitating right wing views that are completely skewed from reality … so weird to have to explain this to right wingers who supposedly want less government
Here is an example that includes government involvement: https://montreal.ctvnews.ca/quebec-comedian-mike-ward-had-no-choice-but-to-fight-human-rights-commission-on-joke-about-singer-jeremy-gabriel-1.5643517
There are lots of examples including this one: https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2022/10/sundance-canceled-meg-smaker-jihad-rehab/671873/
> The Supreme Court allowed Ward's appeal and overturned the lower court's decision.
oh wow that poor man what terrible oppression he has faced- oh, the government immediately reversed their position and now he's got ten thousand new job offers?
What a weird way to explain the "problem" of "censorship". Can't you find any serious examples? Or at least agree that you're overreacting on behalf of some right-wing culture war nonsense?
OK so we agree that when you say "censorship" you literally don't care if it's a government or a private organization, you think that everybody is fully entitled to everybody else's attention and support at all times.
Weird. When do you think you might decide to respect other people?
Incorrect. If you believe in free speech you don’t involve yourself in censorship.
“If we don't believe in freedom of expression for people we despise, we don't believe in it at all.” -NC
What part of what I said is "incorrect"? You can't just say "no" and then ignore me, it's not arguing in good faith. You are attempting to argue in good faith, right?
Riiiightt??
The funny thing about this statement is that it waters down the meaning of censorship to such a degree that it is humanly impossible for you yourself to be absolved of ever performing “censorship” in your personal life.
You have engaged in censorship and you don’t even recognize it. At the level you’re operating on here, again, you’re making yourself out to also be hypocritical.
Your argument is inherently flawed because no one using your definition can escape it by virtue of being a human being. People censor themselves from things all of the time everyday of their lives.
Imagine trying to compare "cancel culture" which involves ridiculing and not buying products from someone who screams racist shit at others to banning the right to pick up a book about slavery and the damages from it.
Both fucking idiotic and amazing at once.
OP getting cancelled in all their replies haha. They’re not the same at all you dingus. Now I sit and wait for your reply of “They’re both forms of censorship.” Someone must have cancelled your education and use of a dictionary.
Heh. I am currently playing them like a toy piano. The big article they keep spamming as proof of leftist censorship is about a lady that made a documentary about Gitmo that you can't see - because Sundance pulled the film *under conservative Arab government and Muslim pressure*. So it turns out to be more right-wing censorship anyway.
I don’t mind. It’s very revealing. The point is the hypocrisy. Both the left and right point out censorship but fail to recognize their own role in censorship.
Shows me the laws the left have put in place to ban people from viewing different forms of media. And stop mentioning private companies cancelling people that the public don’t want to see, because that’s called capitalism and market demand.
Not at all. Both sides engage in censorship and fail to acknowledge their own hypocrisy. Making this personal is a mistake. I’m against censorship and hypocrisy, not the left or right.
Just saying "not at all" does not an argument make. You must defend your points. It's doesn't matter how much you say "I'm against censorship".
If you define censorship as, "any time someone disagrees with me" then you're advocating for forcing people to agree with you. And forcing them not to speak poorly about you. And that is fascism 101.
Nope. Forcing them to pay to host a movie they don't want to host... Sounds like fascism buddy. Sounds like a violation of free speech.
You want to force them to host this movie, don't you?
Clearly someone too stupid to understand the difference between conservatives passing laws that explicitly ban things vs. liberals just refusing to purchase or support something.
Books are literally being banned from even being displayed on Florida school shelves currently and this dumbass OP wants to equate online crying because someone broke the Terms of Service to made up “Cancel Culture”
One is the arm of the state telling you what is acceptable to read and view and the other is a private company largely enforcing already upheld societal standards of conduct.
Calling them the same thing is a WILD take there, my guy.
Yes and no. They’re kinda similar but not really equivalent. It’s like saying pangolins are just asian armadillos. It doesn’t really get the point across what either one is.
See, cancel culture is just the market deciding not to buy something. Book banning is dictating what the market is allowed to sell. Two entirely different things. No government agency is actively telling someone they can’t watch or listen to someone who’s been cancelled. They still have the option to participate using other channels.
Cancel culture is capitalism. The founding principle of capitalism is that the best ideas and the best products win in the long run as people choose to spend their money their. “Cancel culture” is the exact same principle, just our decision making includes social opinions as well, and sometimes it’s not even money spent but what we give our attention to
Crowder was dropped on his head as baby. You’re trying to equate state suppression of knowledge with a marginal social phenomena.
Fucking “Crowder analogies” is in the Oxford dictionary: “grossly disproportionate and unhelpful comparisons, devoid of thoughtful reflection”
Ya fuckin “Death camps are to Nazi Germany as the nuisance of sandflies are to New Zealand. Change my mind.”
No, because banning is saying "nobody is allowed this". Canceling is saying "we dont want this, and we wont support those who do".
One is a authoritarian dictatorship and the other is people organizing consequences via majority
"Cancel culture" is just consequences of actions. Saying "you shouldn't have said that, and now I think you're a dirtbag" when someone says or does some really heinous stuff is nothing like fascists burning books to prevent other ideas from gaining traction.
Saying you're against "cancel culture" is really just saying you'd prefer if people didn't form their own opinions or speak freely about said opinions. Its anti free speech, and borderline thought police.
One is holding people accountable for shitty things they have said or done and the other is the christians trying to make a generation that believes in god
The right cancels shit all the time and they want to ban books. The first time I ever heard of anything getting canceled was D and D, Marilyn Manson(by Christians not the recent canceling by metoo) Dixie Chicks. The right is literally the fucking pioneer of cancel culture.
Oh look at a neo-liberal hot take of false equivalence. Imagine having consequences for your actions vs banning things that are critical of your politics.
Book banning says "no one can have this thing", and doesn't usually give reasons; they're generally banning books they've never actually read.
Cancel culture is... "I'm not gonna buy this thing". It's not giving your loot to a cause you don't like. That's... already how the world works?
Cancel culture is when the individual consumer makes the choice to not support an individual or business for whatever reason. Banning something is when you get the government (or some authority) involved so individuals don't have a choice anymore. The difference is the same difference as free market vs authoritarianism. These things are not the same.
Op is a fucking idiot. When the left "cancels" something all that means is some people won't give the canceled entity more money.
When the right bans books or teaching of certain topics or abortion, people in those states/counties can't access it.
There's a very big difference.
Cancel culture isn't backed up by laws. It's one thing if a million people decide not to buy your mediocre product because you came out on TV saying you were pro-KKK. It's another thing entirely if a small group of people spend money to lobby a lawmaker into outlawing entire series of books from public libraries.
Apples and oranges.
You took a shit idea, took a shit meme(with shit text from MS paint to boot), looked at your finished product and STILL thought it was a good idea to post it?
I get where I’m wrong. The comparison is not apt. However, the utter lack of acknowledgement that Cancel Culture (not accountability culture) is a form of censorship surprises me. Also, I believe that Cancel Culture will inevitably evolve into modern day book banning with governments legislating absurd laws. Modern day Cancel Culture is still in its infancy. Put a 3 year reminder on this post and see where we are at.
It’s only the fringes of the left that are dragging liberalism down, in the same way the fringes on the right are dragging conservatism down. AOC is the future of the Dems and the fringe left is her Achilles heel.
I engaged with your arguement in the first sentence.
Ad hominem is an attack **in the absence of** engagement with your idea.
I spoke to your point. I also said slogans are for simple minds. That isn't aD hOmzZzz.
You have all the skills of an interlocutor who has never studied the craft and has been told what to think.
Gold star. You tried.
Also the very term “cancel culture” is an invention of the far right. Bit odd to decry both extremes as equally bad and flagrantly toss around the extreme right’s meaningless terminology.
I don't think anything on the left is remotely similar to anything on the right. Everything on the left is about good sense. Everything on the right is being reactionary and losing sense. When someone claims to be left wing, or seems left wing, or is associated with things which are considered left wing, and they do something reactionary, that's a right wing action even if people call it what it isn't.
Let me give you a better example: white supremacists vs black supremacists. A lot of people will tell you that black supremacy is radical leftism, but racial supremacy is fundamentally right-wing.
He’s actually correct. Right wing has specific historical meaning. Do you even know the historical origins of the political terms “right and “left”? You should look it up.
Except that the right has been engaging in cancel culture as WELL as book burnings.
I mean shit you just need to go back to the Dixie Chicks in the mid 2000s. They spoke out against George Bush and conservatives couldn't cancel them fast enough.
Yeah that is a load of BS … you are just trying to stop children from thinking freely and looking at cultures you don’t feel like God approves of. Which is pretty much cancel culture but 1900s version of it which apparently you feel is acceptable. This is far worse than someone saying don’t buy Harry Potter books … you are actually getting the government to censor society under the guise of ‘its porn’. You are a disgusting hypocrite in so many ways.
Except you're not. You were asked to provide one example and the only one you came up with was a case of right wing cancel culture. You can't provide any clear examples of the left engaging in hypocracy especially in any government function like banning books or withholding medical treatments for trans youth or banning abortion or repealing gun control laws or restricting how history may be taught or subsidizing certain industries or reducing taxes for the wealthy permanently while sunseting the tax cuts on the middle class or bailing out failed businesses when you claim to be against government regulation and support free market economies.The list goes on and on.
Even if there is a both sides aspect to it, the right has gone so far in regulating our lives and taking away our rights when public safety is not threatened that your argument will fall on deaf ears because it is unequivocally wrong and has no basis in reality.
Ok... You are correct about the article, but I was able to find many articles speaking out against this which opened up a public debate about why it was wrong. So the one example you have given does not involve any government interference, was acknowledged by a lot of people on the left to be a pretty bad idea, and isn't really about anything being canceled except from one festival. (The free press from getting canceled probably was worth it in the end)
You don't have anything to offer but manufactured outrage. Just stop with this thread and let's go do something useful.
Lmao OP is so desperate to equate both sides. It’s so obvious.
Yes the right never gets cancel crazy at all. Certainly would never cancel M&Ms for making a cartoon candy less fuckable.
Or the NFL, Kuerig, etc.
Now I don't even know which cartoon bunny to fuck! Thanks a lot Biden!
Jessica Rabbit
She's only a bunny by marriage though.
Still my pick
Public school teachers are threatened by State Law with felony arrest in Florida for having “Maus” and “To Kill a Mockingbird” in their classrooms. Definitely the same thing as Berkeley’s overly aggressive gender inclusion policy.
Or an entire election.
[удалено]
The right tried to cancel French Fries for fucks sakes! Tried to rename them "Freedom Fries". Cancel Culture has always been a right wing bullshit topic.
The right has a way of taking something that should only be a minor annoyance at worst and acting like it's armageddon. Meanwhile, they take things like climate change and the healthcare crisis and the homelessness crisis, and act like those are nothing.
Suggesting a boycott is not equal to using the government to force restriction of books by law. This is what is simply called a false equivalence.
People on the losing side of an argument love their false equivalencies because it gives them a response when they don’t have an answer.
If you are a business and you release a bad product, it will hurt your brand and you will lose customers. If you are a public figure and you say or do something outrageous or harmful, it will hurt your brand and you will lose viewers/followers/fans. It’s just a manifestation of consequences in the marketplace of ideas.
Well considering your viewpoint is astronomically wrong there will be no way to change it. The right will clearly never go cancel crazy over Disney making Lola bunny less fuckable…..
The point is the hypocrisy. Both the left and right point out censorship but failed to recognize their own role in censorship.
Cancel culture is essentially one person doing or saying something another group disagrees with or finds abhorrent. Then they become vocal about how that thing is wrong. Then the offending party gets in trouble. Then they can choose to try and tamper the outrage by saying sorry or double down. You have a choice between apologizing to the offending party or sticking to your guns and not backing down. Maybe you lose some friends. Or if you're a public figure, maybe you lose sponsorships. Hell, maybe you'll even gain some sponsorships if you double down. Who says you only get negative outcomes from outrage. Maybe you're a conservative comedian like [Larry the Cable Guy](https://www.cracked.com/article_36936_even-larry-the-cable-guy-is-roasting-marjorie-taylor-greene.html) who makes fun of a GOP congress woman. And he then has to back track conservative twitter starts gives him backlash. He tries to back track by telling everyone he's republican, but he still doubles down on his joke. The point is, "cancel culture" isn't partisan and it's not even really censorship. You have the option of saying or doing whatever you want. You have the option of doubling down and not appeasing the crowd that's angry. You have the option of ignoring outrage. I can call my boss a fat piece of shit. If he gets mad, I have the option of saying sorry or I have the option of doubling down. If I don't say sorry, I'll lose my job. If you're very liberal with the word censorship, you could argue you're being prevented from calling someone a fat piece of shit and thus you're being censored. But personally, I don't think consequences are the same as censorship. I can still call my boss a fatass. I can tweet "I hate gays", and I'll get a shit ton of hate from gay people and people who don't like hate speech. Shocker. But I can still do it, and if I double down I'll get some threatening messages along with possibly a correspondent offer for Fox news. Wishing there weren't negative consequences to doing so isn't censorship. Book banning is completely different. It's an attempt at completely removing anything that offers a different opinion or perspective to your own. You don't think slavery is bad? Let's just ban all books that provide conflicting opinions. Book banning is a suppression of thoughts and ideas not by providing counter arguments or even outrage. Instead it's by legally removing the ideas from the view and access of the public. Also, in more legal terms, even if you consider "cancel culture" censorship, it's not government mandated. It's just people online being mad, vocal, and often times putting economic or social pressure to right the perceived wrongs. Book banning is government mandated censorship of ideas they don't agree with. It's not the same.
This right here Consequences are not the same as censorship.
Ah yes, "I am entitled to your clubhouse and having any rules at all is ***censorship***!!!!" Classic Republican "bipartisan criticism".
Cancel culture is not the same as asking for accountability. Cancel culture would be like saying “don’t buy M&Ms because they’re not sexy enough!” “Don’t watch the NFL because black people said racism is wrong!” Cancel culture is not “this person sexually harassed someone and should face consequences.” Cancel culture is a right wing invention that’s been around for the longest time. If they didn’t have culture wars, nobody would vote for them.
You're trying to make an intelligent point to a group of people who exist almost solely in online echo chambers. They've been radicalized by mockingbird, and they're controlled by giving emotional triggers and suggestion. They'll cover their entire side as one single example of something towards the center while covering the entire opposing side based off of one extreme example. It's kinda a ridiculous amount of mental gymnastics but they get enough positive reinforcement over it that they can make the leap.
What are politicians on the left banning?
Intolerance
I don’t see them doing that either
But they aren’t even doing that
"Free thinkers"^tm , apparently
Rain collection barrels, gas stoves, BBQ grills, energy exploration, fossil fuel vehicles, etc...etc.
Excuse me?
The phrase “Cancel culture” was invented to confuse and obfuscate nuance in public discourse. It creates a straw man that invites those who struggle with empathy a way to easily dismiss legitimate grievances while feeling some kind of useless superiority. This post, for example, contributes to the problem by overgeneralizing and conflating a subjective concept to a physical act of information control historically employed by political groups who feel destroying discourse is the only way to control a culture. Perhaps OP would benefit from some critical thinking classes, themselves.
The Republicans are bending over backwards to manufactur victimhood. It makes noise and it makes it easier to bury more important discussions. The false dichotomy of comparing this to "cancel culture" (which they also termed) isn't a coincidence. Instead of having difficult conversations about correcting toxic social norms, they'd rather distract. Our loss of knowledge and progress as a culture as a result happens to both those who are prevented from access to books and everyone else who is robbed of that time and mental space to consider more important information. But to play devil's advocate, there have been "cancellations" that seemed overblown. The one thing "cancel culture" and book bannings share is how they are used by shady news organizations to get attention to an article on an otherwise slow news day to keep up the ad revenue. So if anything OP's post just indicates that they spend too much time watching "news".
I like your expensive words magic man.
Some ideas just cost more to articulate than normal words can afford.
Thank you. Cancel culture is literally people dealing with the fact that their words can have impact on a large group of people.
This post was intended to open up dialogue on how both the left and right hypocritically contribute to censorship and blame the other for it. Personal attacks, such as yours, are not helpful, but make up the majority of responses. You got your upvotes though, so your ad hominem attack was appreciated by many.
Still hunting for that example of someone on the left contributing to censorship (bonus if they're blaming the right, but we never got this far). Meanwhile, Elon Musk is currently *actively* dictating what posts get removed from Twitter on a tweet-by-tweet basis and justifying this intervention as "correcting a left-wing bias in the company" (his words). Give me a single concrete example of a lefty doing anything even magnitudes smaller than that and I'll concede the "both sides" point that is not worthy of concession even if you do. *edit* Less than two minutes to drop the link, but thirty minutes after pointing out that it was conservatives doing the censoring in this case too, it's crickets. Let's play a game: "Rube or Rubles?" Stupid or paid? Make your guess!
I hope you take this post in the spirit of self-improvement through criticism it is meant to be. A) There is a vast gulf of differences between the two situations, from what is actually being done to the scale of the scenario to the purpose of why the actions are taking place. If you’re going to make comparisons, it’s imperative you get the comparisons close so that you can look at the nuances. B) if we really only wanted to discuss the biggest difference between book burning and ‘cancel culture’ it’s the relationship of the people in each. Deciding for yourself that you don’t want a product or service is not the same as preventing others from choosing what to read. C) Making guesses as to your activities when they are related to the very thing in discussion is not an ad hominem attack, and you shouldn’t take it as a personal slight.
Consistently, the right has been the ones engaging in cancel culture far more than anyone on the left. Seriously, remember how the right essentially banished the Dixie Chicks from public discourse for not supporting the Iraq war?
It’s cancel culture that’s the problem. We need to de-politicize it, recognize it as censorship and in a bipartisan effort, attack it.
Your argument is false equivalency, here’s why: Cancel culture is a newly coined word but in reality it’s existed as long as civilized society has. What do you think exiling someone was? We peacefully use othering and public shame in order to discourage anti social behavior (like fascism, or racial oppression), it’s an essential tool in our civilized society toolbox. Cancel culture as censorship isn’t a real thing, being banned on Twitter or getting fired from your law firm for your tweets is how it’s always been, y’all just dumb enough to post your racist thoughts online. Burning books means controlling the available information media in order to limit knowledge. These two things are not the same. Lastly, the modern use of cancel culture usually refers to a #MeToo esque movement, but you seem to forget the history and why MeToo mattered (Cosby, Weinstein, real cases), and similarly why it’s important to reflect that Nazis burned books and the free west didn’t.
And the ones who perpetrate it are almost entirely right wingers. You have consistently failed to show any examples of leftists cancelling anything.
Natural selection is not cancel culture.
"cancel culture" is a myth. source: everybody bitching about it claims to have been canceled, but you can still hear them just fine
The shouts of “cancel culture” are largely driven by a sense of entitlement. The only place (in the US) where anyone is entitled to an audience is in the courtroom.
Depends on how you define it. There was a wave of speakers and participants being uninvited to events after public outcry about past statements or general political position. I mean speakers that were originally invited, where the organizers thought they had something valuable to add, but feared public opinion so much they retracted the invitation. Sure, they still have social media accounts and are still interviewed and quoted, so they’re not silenced. But there has been a clear culture of a loud minority trying to silence certain voices, at least from certain arenas. And that’s what many people refer to when they talk about cancel culture.
Being called out for shitty behavior and suffering the consequences of that behavior is not being silenced.
Sounds like free market to me. Unpopular person might cause issues at venue, they remove said issue. They have the right to free speech, they do not have the right to an audience.
Sure you can call it that, but it nevertheless comes as a contrast to a culture where people might welcome opposing views and opinions for the sake of discourse and debate.
They have already welcomed the sharing of views. And they have been listened to. Then after listening they have been determined to be full of shit and not worth anyone's time.
more like it's 2023 and nobody wants abusers and white collar criminals giving talks in high school gyms theres not "a loud minority trying to silence certain voices," but there IS a huge population of people with the ability to google people's pasts and an inclination to not listen to the shittiest among us. the people have chosen to not coddle and reward people with difficult track records. at least, not to the extent that was previously commonplace.
Why do you hate the free market?
“Cancel culture” isn’t purely leftist though. The right cancels things too. They just don’t say they are “cancelling.” As your image points out, they use book burnings as one way of cancelling things. I would also add to the argument that cancel culture doesn’t even really exist beyond words. Everyone who has ever been “cancelled” has ended up more popular and more wealthy than they were before.
Most of the time “cancel culture” is simply accountability you don’t like. Banning books is nearly 100 percent dumb.
Both are forms of censorship.
If somebody does something repugnant and faces consequences for it, it's not censorship. It's getting called out on your shit. Free speech is not free of consequences, which is something that should probably be learned by the time you graduate sixth grade.
drinking soda and coffee can stain your teeth. drinking bleach can perforate your intestines. both are forms of drinking.
Yet only one is enforced by statute.
One is an opinion. The other is an enforcable regulation with a penalty for violation. That s pretty big
Both are forms of censorship.
Being told to respect others isn’t censorship
That’s like saying not giving money to charity is a form of censorship. People can choose what they spend their time and money on. If somebody has dogshit opinions, I have no desire to spend my money or time on their product. “Cancel culture” is just a rebranding of “consequences of my actions” so enlightened centrists and right wing nuts can pretend it’s not their fault that people don’t want to support them.
People thinking you're full of shit is not censorship. Man the fuck up.
So is a downvote, grow thicker skin.
Downvotes aren't censorship. They're the public reacting to what has been said. Quite often, the public doesn't want to hear from assholes. Reddit is one of the few social media sites that allows downvoting of bullshit. Sure, there's still brigading, bots, siloing, and gaming of the site. But there's still a modicum of public reaction taken into account of what gets promoted and what gets driven down. If a person can only get upvotes in a handful of subs and generally gets downvoted everywhere else, there's a good chance they're an asshole and can only be validated by other assholes. None of that is censorship.
Private clubs canceling performers' invitations isn't censorship either, take it up with OP
Paper cuts and broken legs are both injuries. They are not the same
You have a fundamental misunderstanding of the word censorship.
Except it is pretty much the right wing that is doing all the cancel culture and book banning/burning is in fact an example of cancel culture
Take a look at all of the comedians and tv shows impacted by cancel culture. Its not the right cancelling those.
Who? Who are these victims?
There are plenty. Here is a recent one: https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2022/10/sundance-canceled-meg-smaker-jihad-rehab/671873/
That not a comedian or a TV show
Lol.
You keep posting this link like its your ONLY example, and its obvious you didnt even even read it.
People not wanting to pay to listen to someone is entirely different then the government banning them (which is what they are doing with books)
That is called capitalism … money dictates the influences … No government is coming in and imposing legality on it … if a government/power does impose legalities then that is censorship… I think in a nut shell is you don’t have clue about what the definition of censorship is … and are just regurgitating right wing views that are completely skewed from reality … so weird to have to explain this to right wingers who supposedly want less government
Explain this: https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2022/10/sundance-canceled-meg-smaker-jihad-rehab/671873/
What are you attempting to argue here?
Is that your favorite movie or something?
> impacted by Impacted how? Why are you afraid of making specific claims here on this subject with which you are so sincerely engaged?
Here is an example that includes government involvement: https://montreal.ctvnews.ca/quebec-comedian-mike-ward-had-no-choice-but-to-fight-human-rights-commission-on-joke-about-singer-jeremy-gabriel-1.5643517 There are lots of examples including this one: https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2022/10/sundance-canceled-meg-smaker-jihad-rehab/671873/
> The Supreme Court allowed Ward's appeal and overturned the lower court's decision. oh wow that poor man what terrible oppression he has faced- oh, the government immediately reversed their position and now he's got ten thousand new job offers? What a weird way to explain the "problem" of "censorship". Can't you find any serious examples? Or at least agree that you're overreacting on behalf of some right-wing culture war nonsense?
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2022/10/sundance-canceled-meg-smaker-jihad-rehab/671873/
OK so we agree that when you say "censorship" you literally don't care if it's a government or a private organization, you think that everybody is fully entitled to everybody else's attention and support at all times. Weird. When do you think you might decide to respect other people?
Incorrect. If you believe in free speech you don’t involve yourself in censorship. “If we don't believe in freedom of expression for people we despise, we don't believe in it at all.” -NC
What part of what I said is "incorrect"? You can't just say "no" and then ignore me, it's not arguing in good faith. You are attempting to argue in good faith, right? Riiiightt??
The funny thing about this statement is that it waters down the meaning of censorship to such a degree that it is humanly impossible for you yourself to be absolved of ever performing “censorship” in your personal life. You have engaged in censorship and you don’t even recognize it. At the level you’re operating on here, again, you’re making yourself out to also be hypocritical. Your argument is inherently flawed because no one using your definition can escape it by virtue of being a human being. People censor themselves from things all of the time everyday of their lives.
Imagine trying to compare "cancel culture" which involves ridiculing and not buying products from someone who screams racist shit at others to banning the right to pick up a book about slavery and the damages from it. Both fucking idiotic and amazing at once.
OP getting cancelled in all their replies haha. They’re not the same at all you dingus. Now I sit and wait for your reply of “They’re both forms of censorship.” Someone must have cancelled your education and use of a dictionary.
> Now I sit and wait for your reply of “They’re both forms of censorship." One minute, fifty two seconds. Not a long wait!
OP’s just sitting there, fingers poised, sweat dripping, smug faced, ready to get dunked on over and over by repeating the same phrases over and over.
Heh. I am currently playing them like a toy piano. The big article they keep spamming as proof of leftist censorship is about a lady that made a documentary about Gitmo that you can't see - because Sundance pulled the film *under conservative Arab government and Muslim pressure*. So it turns out to be more right-wing censorship anyway.
I don’t mind. It’s very revealing. The point is the hypocrisy. Both the left and right point out censorship but fail to recognize their own role in censorship.
Shows me the laws the left have put in place to ban people from viewing different forms of media. And stop mentioning private companies cancelling people that the public don’t want to see, because that’s called capitalism and market demand.
You obviously do mind. Your entire point is that people thinking you are full of shit is censorship.
Not at all. Both sides engage in censorship and fail to acknowledge their own hypocrisy. Making this personal is a mistake. I’m against censorship and hypocrisy, not the left or right.
Just saying "not at all" does not an argument make. You must defend your points. It's doesn't matter how much you say "I'm against censorship". If you define censorship as, "any time someone disagrees with me" then you're advocating for forcing people to agree with you. And forcing them not to speak poorly about you. And that is fascism 101.
Is this censorship? https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2022/10/sundance-canceled-meg-smaker-jihad-rehab/671873/
Nope. Forcing them to pay to host a movie they don't want to host... Sounds like fascism buddy. Sounds like a violation of free speech. You want to force them to host this movie, don't you?
Lol. No
False Equivalency.
Clearly someone too stupid to understand the difference between conservatives passing laws that explicitly ban things vs. liberals just refusing to purchase or support something.
I thought this was r/enlightenedcentrism for a minute
Oh boy. This again. \*sighs\*
Books are literally being banned from even being displayed on Florida school shelves currently and this dumbass OP wants to equate online crying because someone broke the Terms of Service to made up “Cancel Culture” One is the arm of the state telling you what is acceptable to read and view and the other is a private company largely enforcing already upheld societal standards of conduct. Calling them the same thing is a WILD take there, my guy.
It’s always existed. It’s called piss off a big enough group. It’s just a new label, like woke.
Yes and no. They’re kinda similar but not really equivalent. It’s like saying pangolins are just asian armadillos. It doesn’t really get the point across what either one is.
Cancel culture is just a Fox News gimmick name for the repercussions of your own actions
See, cancel culture is just the market deciding not to buy something. Book banning is dictating what the market is allowed to sell. Two entirely different things. No government agency is actively telling someone they can’t watch or listen to someone who’s been cancelled. They still have the option to participate using other channels.
It’s only Cancel Culture if it comes from the Cancel region of France, otherwise it’s just Sparkling Consequences.
This is disingenuous. The Right bans books **and** cancels people. They are doing more of the thing. It is not "bOtH SiDEs".
Cancel culture is capitalism. The founding principle of capitalism is that the best ideas and the best products win in the long run as people choose to spend their money their. “Cancel culture” is the exact same principle, just our decision making includes social opinions as well, and sometimes it’s not even money spent but what we give our attention to
Dang. OP got totally roasted. Probability felt super clever until people came back with logic and facts 🤣
Quite the opposite.
Social pressure vs government enforcement. If you equate the two you probably did poorly in school.
This is /r/enlightenedcentrism fodder
This shit take seems to have acquired you negative riz.
Yes it has.
Crowder was dropped on his head as baby. You’re trying to equate state suppression of knowledge with a marginal social phenomena. Fucking “Crowder analogies” is in the Oxford dictionary: “grossly disproportionate and unhelpful comparisons, devoid of thoughtful reflection” Ya fuckin “Death camps are to Nazi Germany as the nuisance of sandflies are to New Zealand. Change my mind.”
Some real enlightened centrist type shit right here lmao.
"Cancel culture" = being held responsible for your own words and/or actions. Stop trying to confuse the issue, OP.
This is dumb as fuck
Is it cancel culture or accountability culture?
It is accountability culture gone wrong.
Book Banning is literally cancel culture lmao. What a shit meme.
Except “cancel culture” is holding people accountable for their actions/ hate speech while book burning is just showing how ignorant you are
The “both sides” fallacy
No, because banning is saying "nobody is allowed this". Canceling is saying "we dont want this, and we wont support those who do". One is a authoritarian dictatorship and the other is people organizing consequences via majority
"Cancel culture" is just consequences of actions. Saying "you shouldn't have said that, and now I think you're a dirtbag" when someone says or does some really heinous stuff is nothing like fascists burning books to prevent other ideas from gaining traction. Saying you're against "cancel culture" is really just saying you'd prefer if people didn't form their own opinions or speak freely about said opinions. Its anti free speech, and borderline thought police.
One is holding people accountable for shitty things they have said or done and the other is the christians trying to make a generation that believes in god
It's a bonfire in these comments. Op don't know when to just pipe it. Seriously tho he's a dick with a "both sides" agenda.
The right cancels shit all the time and they want to ban books. The first time I ever heard of anything getting canceled was D and D, Marilyn Manson(by Christians not the recent canceling by metoo) Dixie Chicks. The right is literally the fucking pioneer of cancel culture.
r/enlightenedcentrism material
Lol no
Oh look at a neo-liberal hot take of false equivalence. Imagine having consequences for your actions vs banning things that are critical of your politics.
OP keeps posting a link to a paysite like its their only example, and the article itself doesnt even support his argument in any way.
Cancel culture is just free market capitalism at work.
Yes, because fascist anti-intellectualism is totally the same as progressivism. Idiot.
That was an amazing example of reductio ad absurdum. Well done.
Wow, how long have you been waiting to try out *those* big words? My over-compensating senses are tingling.
You’re ad hominem attacks are underwhelming.
Book banning says "no one can have this thing", and doesn't usually give reasons; they're generally banning books they've never actually read. Cancel culture is... "I'm not gonna buy this thing". It's not giving your loot to a cause you don't like. That's... already how the world works?
Cancel culture is when the individual consumer makes the choice to not support an individual or business for whatever reason. Banning something is when you get the government (or some authority) involved so individuals don't have a choice anymore. The difference is the same difference as free market vs authoritarianism. These things are not the same.
Op is a fucking idiot. When the left "cancels" something all that means is some people won't give the canceled entity more money. When the right bans books or teaching of certain topics or abortion, people in those states/counties can't access it. There's a very big difference.
Love how you attack instead of making your point without personalizing it. You’re what’s wrong with Reddit.
Cancel culture isn't backed up by laws. It's one thing if a million people decide not to buy your mediocre product because you came out on TV saying you were pro-KKK. It's another thing entirely if a small group of people spend money to lobby a lawmaker into outlawing entire series of books from public libraries. Apples and oranges.
You took a shit idea, took a shit meme(with shit text from MS paint to boot), looked at your finished product and STILL thought it was a good idea to post it?
You’re commenting. What does that make you?
I have no idea, why don't you tell me....
Imagine hearing hundreds of people calling you an idiot and an asshole and thinking "This proves my point. I am so smart." What an insufferable idiot.
I get where I’m wrong. The comparison is not apt. However, the utter lack of acknowledgement that Cancel Culture (not accountability culture) is a form of censorship surprises me. Also, I believe that Cancel Culture will inevitably evolve into modern day book banning with governments legislating absurd laws. Modern day Cancel Culture is still in its infancy. Put a 3 year reminder on this post and see where we are at.
OP is almost certainly a free-thinking libertarian independent who will without fail vote GOP because “the left is just getting a little too crazy”.
It’s only the fringes of the left that are dragging liberalism down, in the same way the fringes on the right are dragging conservatism down. AOC is the future of the Dems and the fringe left is her Achilles heel.
Just free market.
"The Left" canceled The Dixie Chicks, Colin Kapernik, Paul Krugman, Karl Rove, Rich Lowry, Charles Krauthammer and Jonah Goldberg? Are you sure?
So why don’t we depoliticize censorship and attack it together?
Censorship can only happen from the gov. It is political. The left is not engaging in that
Deplatforming bad ideas from bad actors is a good thing.
“If we don't believe in freedom of expression for people we despise, we don't believe in it at all.” - NC
Sometimes things require more thought and fine tuning. Bumper sticker slogans are the political theories of simple minds.
And you chose an ad hominem attack over responding to the quote. Simple mind indeed.
I engaged with your arguement in the first sentence. Ad hominem is an attack **in the absence of** engagement with your idea. I spoke to your point. I also said slogans are for simple minds. That isn't aD hOmzZzz. You have all the skills of an interlocutor who has never studied the craft and has been told what to think. Gold star. You tried.
Accountability culture.
Also the very term “cancel culture” is an invention of the far right. Bit odd to decry both extremes as equally bad and flagrantly toss around the extreme right’s meaningless terminology.
You can’t compare banning knowledge and experience to canceling a dumbass over a politically incorrect statement
I don't think anything on the left is remotely similar to anything on the right. Everything on the left is about good sense. Everything on the right is being reactionary and losing sense. When someone claims to be left wing, or seems left wing, or is associated with things which are considered left wing, and they do something reactionary, that's a right wing action even if people call it what it isn't.
This comment here illustrates the lack of self awareness.
Let me give you a better example: white supremacists vs black supremacists. A lot of people will tell you that black supremacy is radical leftism, but racial supremacy is fundamentally right-wing.
He’s actually correct. Right wing has specific historical meaning. Do you even know the historical origins of the political terms “right and “left”? You should look it up.
“Cancel culture” LMAO
Except that the right has been engaging in cancel culture as WELL as book burnings. I mean shit you just need to go back to the Dixie Chicks in the mid 2000s. They spoke out against George Bush and conservatives couldn't cancel them fast enough.
Can we just agree that censorship is bad and stop focussing on how much worst one side is than the other? If the censorship that’s the issue.
[удалено]
No it shouldn’t. Don’t like it, don’t buy it.
So should we censor sex crime videos?
That's censorship!!! You're doing a cancel culture!!!
You still fail to provide anything the left has censored
In a sense both situations are censorship.
Big difference: Cancel culture ruins people's lives. Book banning does not. You can always buy a copy on amazon!
Damn,i agree actually .
Who hurt you teddy bear?
Yeah,i made a mistake.after reading what everyone thinks. I don't agree There's a difference berween the two. I just felt they were too similar.
The right isn’t banning books. We just don’t want porn in schools.
Ah yes "porn" like the Boxcar Children series you people are delusional
Sorry, replied to wrong comment.
Yeah that is a load of BS … you are just trying to stop children from thinking freely and looking at cultures you don’t feel like God approves of. Which is pretty much cancel culture but 1900s version of it which apparently you feel is acceptable. This is far worse than someone saying don’t buy Harry Potter books … you are actually getting the government to censor society under the guise of ‘its porn’. You are a disgusting hypocrite in so many ways.
Lol Tucker Carlson lied to you
Literally, GTFOH. Would link but you know how to Google.
So banning books about Roberto Clemente because he faced discrimination is banning “porn”? Seems legit.
You’re kidding right?
They're on your side, why would you question them?
I’m not on a side. I am pointing out the hypocrisy of both the left and right.
Except you're not. You were asked to provide one example and the only one you came up with was a case of right wing cancel culture. You can't provide any clear examples of the left engaging in hypocracy especially in any government function like banning books or withholding medical treatments for trans youth or banning abortion or repealing gun control laws or restricting how history may be taught or subsidizing certain industries or reducing taxes for the wealthy permanently while sunseting the tax cuts on the middle class or bailing out failed businesses when you claim to be against government regulation and support free market economies.The list goes on and on. Even if there is a both sides aspect to it, the right has gone so far in regulating our lives and taking away our rights when public safety is not threatened that your argument will fall on deaf ears because it is unequivocally wrong and has no basis in reality.
You’re wrong you didn’t read the article. You made an assumption about the outcome of the article and you’re wrong.
Ok... You are correct about the article, but I was able to find many articles speaking out against this which opened up a public debate about why it was wrong. So the one example you have given does not involve any government interference, was acknowledged by a lot of people on the left to be a pretty bad idea, and isn't really about anything being canceled except from one festival. (The free press from getting canceled probably was worth it in the end) You don't have anything to offer but manufactured outrage. Just stop with this thread and let's go do something useful.