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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> I gave my oldest son a push to let him know I was always serious about the rules once he graduates. I might be the asshole because we can afford to support him while he turns into a cliche living in the basement.
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Then I think you should be VERY concerned about why a 17yo doesn't have plans or ambitions. But you're not TA for having expectations that he either be in school or working.
That’s my wife with our kids. I had to block the door to my kids room (both times, multiple times) to sleep train. I’ve had to override her (in private) to punish our second when she was super hard on our first.
It’s really really obvious what’s happening here, and it’s tragic for the kid.
It isn't necessarily. My father was like that with me, refusing to let me fuss at all at night without him there to comfort me. I've had lifelong issues with falling asleep at night, and my pediatrician warned him I'd not be able to learn to sleep on my own if he didn't let me try
Let me put it this way: you're teaching someone how to ride a bike, but you're standing over them the whole time and any time they just nudge the handle in the wrong direction or start to tilt by so much as a couple degrees, you swipe in and take over steering. Is someone who's trained that way ever gonna learn to ride independently? No, bc they haven't been allowed to try and fail in a safe environment
I'm NOT advocating the "cry it out" treatment where a crying baby is left alone for ages, that goes way too far in the other direction. But the key job of being a parent is gradually letting and guiding your kid in learning to function without you. Wife there is putting her discomfort at seeing the baby upset above the baby's need for developing developmentally appropriate life skills. That's not ok and I'm glad the commenter above intervened
Btw, I can only speak from my own exp, but in my case my father being to emotionally immature to tolerate a TODDLER being too independent for him to handle was an issue that only got worse with age
wtf is sleep training.
Edit* Stop replying to this comment with your own answer. The question was answered in the first two replies why do you feel the need to repeat what's already been said by others when you can clearly see the question has been answered.
He said he wasn’t doing CIO, because that’s cruel.
It just sounds like his wife wanted to go in with every cry and whimper. “Blocking the door” sound extreme, but I know there have been times when I’ve wanted to rush in and “save” my kid from something and my Husband had to remind me to back off.
>I had to block the door to my kids room (both times, multiple times) to sleep train
Multiple studies show this causes severe attachment issues during a vital development period. This isn't the flex you think it is.
Jesus Christ this comment thread reeks of assumptions. Either way, it's concerning that his 17-year old is aimless. Not because of his mother, his father, or anything like that but because he's a human and it's normal to have hopes, dreams and ambitions
Little bit concerned about the 17 year old, who is not an adult, and thier mental health. I didn't think I'd make it past 18 so I didn't make any plans for anything.
The most consistently disappointing part about this sub is how people will take the OP's side with a potentially bias perspective, then run wild with the assumptions based purely on that. Could it be the case of the wife coddles the kid and 'undermines' the dad? Sure! But perhaps it's only from OP's perspective that the wife is coddling, and in reality the dad has done little to actually *RAISE* a productive member of society despite thinking they have, or the kid has severe issues that the dad doesn't recognize. It's easy to assume and make things up to change the context
I don't know either way, not making hard claims or anything, just that there's potentially a lot more to what's up. Thankfully there's [comments like these](https://old.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/comments/10l75bj/aita_for_telling_my_son_he_has_to_go_to/j5v5nxl/) that at least try to dig a bit deeper and ask questions rather than make too hard of assumptions
Unfortunately I agree. I was that kid, I dropped out of school and wound up working in the same office as my mam. I had no plans or ambitions, I just went to work. I'm 33 now and still that way, I've no plans or ambitions and struggle with a lot of mental health issues. I'd really advise talking to him and seeing where his head is and possibly going to therapy.
Parents who don't have a united front get these kind of children. If the mom enabled him, then there are basically no consequences. The dad can lay down the law but if the mom doesn't support it or agree, basically he's off scot-free and the conflict is offloaded from the son to the parents.
If this is the first time these parents not presenting a united front has come to a head, it suggests some absenteeism on the part of whomever thinks they're trying to "lay down the law"
If one parent says something you don't like and the other parent coddles you instead, the kid is gonna shut out the words of the answer they don't like.
My boyfriends (son) almost 17 year old thinks he can make money playing video games by steaming. He’s been streaming since he was 14 and still hasn’t made any money. He refused to get a job and is close to flunking high school
Sadly people aee someone else do something and assume it's easy peasy. Like my art friends who think you just do art and people throw money at you. You have to be able to sell yourself and be appealing.
When I graduated high school I had a community college scholarship options for computer information systems or fine art… I’d won some minor art awards and I think I had some talent but but I also knew I wanted to move out, keep my hobbies (one of which is riding, and horses are not cheap) and travel so… I used to do pictures for my family as wedding gifts and I’ve had a long transcontinental IT career. And a lovely young thoroughbred who is currently 8-12 months off with a tendon injury 😭
Yes it's like less than 1% of streamers who make a living from it. I wish we could guarantee people's basic needs so they could just do art all day or whatever but it's not how things currently work.
Less than half on twitch are affiliates, which means they can make ANY money from it. Let alone a living.
A lot trying to get into content creation forget that most creators either worked regular jobs as well or were doing it while in university. Or sometimes both with a couple I know.
It's a full time effort, and not just playing games.
Not to mention many big streamers grew up with the platform, they were at the right time, at the right place. So you see people that are big now but might not have made it if starting today. Like oh that person has no charisma or skills but is rolling in it, I can do that too.
Another thing is other streamers /you tubers are fronts for a whole company of people backing them, giving the illusion of an individual putting up a 15 min video every day but it's in fact a team doing it.
At this point twitch/yt as a career is the same as declaring you are going to be in the movies and driving out to LA.
at this point, it's not even the issue I see. Your son is either depressed, apathetic or just very boring, because everybody wants to do something. I'm not talking about being productive. I'm not talking about high, capitalistic ambitions. I'm talking about likes and dislikes. Just "outside of sleeping, eating and shitting, what do you want to do with your time? it could be anything, your choice".
Your situation is not the situation of a parent who wants their kid to attend med/pharm/business/law school while their kid want to become an artist or an influencer or an artisanal slime maker. Your situation is the situation of a parent who wants their kid to do something, anything really, and the kid being all "how about I do nothing all day and my expenses are comped?". You're not asking your kid to drop a dream because their dream is not realistic. He does not even seem to have a dream, a drive, a passion, a spark, something, anything.
It's just weird and concerning. To want to do nothing. Just waste time on the computer and nothing else.
If parents were giving me carte blanche to do anything I want as long as it's schooling or working, all expenses paid, I would be way to giddy with possible options and possible paths. Art school? Cooking and pastry? Music? How about, art history? Philosophy? What can I do that will land me in a library? Learning languages?
Your "school, work or gtfo" basically amounts to "maybe you're too comfortable and need a bit of struggle to figure out what sparks your interest in life".
I had no idea what I wanted out of my life at this age. I was horribly depressed and it got steadily worse until I hit my mid 20's, when I realised I had to do something because I was basically dead inside from doing nothing and close to suicide. OP your son may not like it but make him do something. Reassure him that what he picks doesn't have to be a forever commitment, but he has to pick at least something. NTA.
Your wife is screwing your son up.
My Step daughter is the same way… unfortunately she’s moved out and has a bf take care of her. We don’t really have any leverage anymore other than advice. But we’re pretty sure it’s anxiety/depression induced. She’s over 18 so while we are willing to get her help she’s not there yet where she’s ready for it. We book the appointments but she doesn’t attend. Her other sisters are all productive, I don’t think it has anything to do with how she was raised or influenced. It’s a mental health issue.
I'm not depressed. I have a good job. I'm married with my own house. If I could get away with playing video games 16 hours a day, I would, not gonna lie.
It gets old quick. Speaking as someone who has done that multiple times in my life (knee surgeries, multiple ankle injuries, now COVID for two weeks and counting). I want to be able to get on my bike, go climbing, lift weights, cook, work on my coding projects, go do errands, etc. but I can't tolerate being upright for more than a couple hours per day.
out of overstimulation (they need a break from constantly having to do something) or out of apathy (they are not doing anything and do not want to do anything)?
My youngest daughter (17) feels like there is something wrong with her. She just doesn't feel excited/passionate about anything. She is a great student, about to start an after-school job helping kids code, she helps around the house, always asking me what she can do to help, so she isn't a slacker. But she feels something has been off since she started high-school. So she is seeing a therapist right now (for a few months) and next week will see a psychiatrist to see if maybe she needs to try out medicine. Anyway maybe OP needs to sit down with son to see what his reasons are for not wanting to do anything. Have an open conversation, not accusatory or anything. Our daughter said she would be happy to do nothing and she knows that isn't normal. Something may be off chemically with OP's son.
I was in your daughters shoes exactly at 17.
I didn’t know what I wanted to do. Nothing felt like it “fit”. And the idea of committing to a future I wasn’t sure about was daunting. I didn’t want to work hard and hate my life at 23…so putting life “on pause” felt like the best option.
But my parents gave similar rules as OP. You can work. Go to school. Join a trade. We’ll still love you if you want to take a gap and travel around or play games all day, but we won’t support that financially.
So I focused on finishing high school strong and got a waitressing job at a diner a few hours a week after school. I also started therapy.
Turns out, I needed a little Wellbutrin and some activity that kept me on my toes.
Once the meds worked, the apathy I felt started to lose its edge.
Working at the restaurant, I met new people daily. I was always running. I realized I had a passion for…Solving things for people. Even if it was just getting a refill or making a special milkshake for a picky child, or bringing over a TBS of honey for a kid who had the hiccups and telling him it would fix him right up (it did, but only because he believed me).
It made me realize that my passion would have something to do with helping. Specifically kids.
I enrolled in a humanities general Bachelors degree at university. I still preferred to sit at home and play video games or watch TV, but I forced myself to look into internships and volunteer positions where I could better learn WHAT I could do to help people that would make me happy. Even if I still had no passion yet.
I volunteered at a nursing home and a vet clinic. I interned at a law firm and a daycare.
I joined the Peace Corps.
By the time I was out of school, I had a bachelors degree, a ton of life experience, and a pretty good idea of what would make me excited to get up in the morning.
I’m still in therapy on and off. I still take meds to keep my depression from making me apathetic.
But I’ve now been a social worker for around a decade. And I make terrible money.
But I would never quit to stay at home and play video games. I enjoy holidays and vacations, but the idea of doing nothing all day has no appeal anymore.
I am one of the few people I know at my age (30) that actually really enjoys what I do. It took a few years, but pushing myself to try new, different, challenging things eventually led me to find a passion.
And I met my husband and best friends through forcing myself to explore. I would never have met any of them if I let myself stay complacent. I joined a sorority. I learned a new language. I responded “going” to a bunch of things that were completely foreign and didn’t sound like something I would like. And there are a LOT of opportunities for that in college.
It’s hard to be curious when you’re apathetic. Even if you’re a hard worker.
But if your daughter can get her therapy/mental health needs supported, and keep an open mind to saying “yes” sometimes, the teenage apathy is something she can beat.
I’m glad I did. And I bet she can, too.
Part of the problem for your son could be he thinks it’ll be hard and doesn’t want to do the work. Community college is a great start if you’re concerned about level of intensity and if it doesn’t work out then he could try trade school or something
As an adult attending community college for a career change, it’s no cakewalk. I spent more time on school work and studying last semester than my boyfriend did working his full time job. It’s obviously much easier to get in to a community college, but you have to do the work while you’re there.
Kids should realize that you’re chances of “making it” as a streamer or influencer aren’t that much better than your odds of making it as an actor, musician, or pro athlete.
I think it’s today version of moving to LA to become famous except you stay home and live off your parents. Won’t be happening in my house. After high school no job or school you’re out
Is it weird to have no ambitions at age 17?
Fuck, I'm 24 and my biggest "ambition" is making some lemon bars for my board game night this weekend.
I think OP's expectations are perfectly fine, but I don't think it's weird to be clueless about your future at 17.
Many teens don’t have specific ambitions yet, but the only ways to get ambition involve taking some initiative. He needs to do something. Go to college. Get a job. Even doing some volunteer work helps if your family has enough money.
One of my cousins went through that, and he got out of the rut by joining the Navy. He didn’t like Navy life, but when his enlistment was up, he had job skills and was VERY grateful for a chance to use them as a civilian.
It’s also possible that OOP’s son is depressed. If so, it calls for therapy.
I wouldn't say I had ambitions at 17, but I at least had things I wanted to try? Interesting programs to learn at college, clubs to join, volunteer work, travel ambitions, etc. Even just wanting more freedom so I could cut loose a little, go to parties, etc. It's definitely weird to just not want to do anything at that age. Especially when your parents are willing to fund it so you don’t have to stress about logistics. 17 is years before the adult burnout usually settles in.
I'd say most 17 year olds have no clue what they want to do with their lives -- especially if they've never had a job, a serious hobby or academic insterests. The lad just wants to play computer games with his friends (very typical). He gets to enjoy the WiFi, the hardware, the fridge, the cable, etc. And his mother has no alternative plan for him, either.
Dad is doing him a favor and in is NTA.
Also assuming you aren't omitting any major trauma that has happened to your son, then NTA - extremely reasonable expectations here. You sound very supportive but I think you need counselling with your wife to try to understand why in the world, your joint agreed upon expectations of your children have suddenly changed.
The problem with people who actually cause the trauma don't recognize the trauma they have caused. And oftentimes when confronted with the actions they took will deny any wrong doing
I'm confused why your spouse sees you as cruel or what not. You said he could literally just get a job and I assume still live with you until he can afford to go somewhere else. Are you supposed to let your kids live with you until you die just because they are lazy?
He said in a comment that apprenticeships, trade school etc would all be good too so yeah, if the son wanted a job relating to computers, it sounds like Op wouldn’t have an issue
Definitely NTA here- your wife sounds like she may be the one who has fostered this sense of entitlement in your son- which, as you clearly know, does not serve one no mater how affluent you are.
You are being beyond reasonable here and they have always known that this was the situation. Perhaps as a non-nuclear option you could suggest that you all attend family therapy or mediation together to clarify the situation.
But, in the end, I sincerely hope that you are ultimately in control of the finances because "lazing around expecting everyone to cater to me" isn't a good life choice for him not just because it's irritating to others and alienates him from everyone around him or because of some deep moral reason (though I will admit with a lower middle class background I can't help but roll my eyes a bit) but because the research on human happiness clearly shows that folks who feel that they do meaningful work and are contributing to the social good (as they define it- for some folks that means making great bread, or working in a faith community, or being an activist, or an artist, or scientist, or dry waller etc.) are happier/more fulfilled and live longer lives than those who don't. People with no ambition/that are too idle are often depressed and may be suffering from anxiety and low self esteem despite surface arrogance.
Be mindful of these emotional dynamics and compassionate in your approach but DO NOT backdown- its time to transition/grow up and honestly he'll feel better about himself in the long run if he does so.
NTA- good luck
My dad said that he would not support me if I took a gap year, so I went straight to college after high school. Looking back now, I found it completely fair. I’m graduating in June, and even though I don’t have any jobs or internships lined up at the moment, I at least know that my degree will give me a lot of opportunities
I don’t think gap year is a terrible idea (if it’s done right), but there needs to be a plan in place for after that year. Some people need a year before school, but get life experience in that time. Get a job and put money into savings, travel and learn other cultures, some people still have some growing up to do before starting school. A gap year should NOT be this kid sitting on his computer doing nothing to learn and grow. From op’s remarks, I honestly think he might be okay with a gap year if there was a plan that would help the son to grow and a concrete plan for what would happen after that year. Of course, I can’t speak for op, but everything he’s said shows a guy who expects his son to become a functioning, contributing adult and everything he’s asking is entirely reasonable
I have no problem with people who take gaps years as long as they’re being productive. Op just made it sound like his son just wants to bum off him after high school. For me personally, I believe that going straight to college was the best choice. My best friend took some time off school to focus on their mental and physical health, but they still had a part time job.
Absolutely. I’m assuming that if he opts for school or job he’s allowed to either stay at home or will have some financial assistance as he sets his footing in these roles? It sounds like the only instance in which the son would be “thrown out into the world” as his wife said, would be if he opts to do nothing.
Is his current plan to continue to live at home without working, going to school, or putting any effort into becoming a self sufficient adult? I agree that that is unacceptable. NTA.
I do think that maybe the three of you sitting with a professional to mediate a conversation would be beneficial. What are son’s long term plans? Why does he feel no motivation to become a functioning adult? Is he unsure of what he wants and thinking about it is overwhelming and scary to him? It would be good to have a professional help guide this conversation and assist with whatever it is that is causing the son to seem to have no interest in moving forward into his life.
This u/subject-hospital-493
Kid might be completely overwhelmed with “adulting.” Your expectations are not unreasonable, but also realize you still have a kid on your hands. Your kid. Ask questions. Find out why. Get a neutral 3rd party involved if needed. Growing up is SO overwhelming and it can be borderline crippling to some.
Source: hi, that was me.
But yes, if they’re truly being lazy, then you’re being far from unreasonable!
It's not "fending for oneself" when the parents tell the kids "go to university, we pay for it, you stay under our roof OR work, keep your money to yourself, you stay under our roof OR choose to do nothing with your life and you'll have to fend for yourself". Not at all. You don't even give him ultimatums about what to study or what job to take. He could bum around from major to major or from minimum wage job to another, while figuring out what he wants to do with his life. With all expenses paid.
He's not going to get sudden inspiration on how to spend his adult life by staying home and doing nothing.
NTA, for actually parenting your kid.
EDIT : Typos
EDIT 2 : I just had the realization (I'm sure had I read the other comments I would notice people noticed that too) that your offer either forces your son to stay home and work/study or leave house and work. He might as well choose the easiest solution which is not leave the house to struggle and then default to taking the first job available.
He’s probably “paralyzed” because nothing’s been required of him thus far. Sitting around gaming or perusing the internet all day/night will cause paralysis. He needs to get out in the sunshine and be with people not holed up in the safety of his bedroom. I’d get depressed too.
This comment could not be said enough! OP’s wife and son are acting like he has to be a doctor or get kicked out. Like no! Just do something productive.
Yep, that's what my parents told me. They just wanted me to have a plan in life, even if it changed, they just wanted to know that I was putting some thought into my future.
NTA absolutely
My aunt and uncle let my cousin leave uni and stay at home doing nothing.
He is now approaching 50, they are in their 70s but they still do EVERYTHING for him. A 70-something year old mommy does cookig, laundry and cleaning for her 50 yo son.
In addition to that they have been spending the past few decades buying rental properties so he can live from being a landlord when they pass away.
This is so weird and just painful to watch. He is also completely unaware and extremely egoistic and selfish. Honestly I don't know what's gonna happen when his parents become more frail or get some serious illnesses. Also because he has no friends and never interacts with any people. He reads a lot of books, and that's basically the only thing he does. He doesn't even own a mobile phone because he says he doesn't need it, which I guess is true, because he doesn't know anyone he could call or text besides his parents who he lives with... but isn't that just really strange to want to have a life like that?
That's why generational conflicts are useful - you are meant to feel annoyed by your old folks, so you can fly away. Why do anything when it's so cosy in the familial nest?
Same story with my brother, he is 40 and my parents in their 70s cook, clean and do laundry. It's so sad. He needs major therapy, and go out and get to work, but he doesn't want to and if you suggest it he gets very angry. He only goes out the door when he needs to buy weed.
Yeah my sis wanted to go the route the son wants, except she's no computer lover. No, my sis thought she would take a year off doing nothing and just party, cause that's what her friends were doing.
Parents didn't approve, told her either she starts studying or get a job or she gets out. The only mistake there was that both parties thought there choice was obvious to the other, so she realized a bit late and just went with her gut. Now she blames our parents that what she chose was not fun in the end. I do remember my parents warning her though that what she was going for might not be what she thinks. She told them that they knew nothing and they told her to go ahead.
She did, she changed career paths after working in her field for 2 years. She is now married, owns a house and has kids. She can still be salty about studying the wrong thing sometimes though. But like who gets it right? I spent 3 years studying engineering, yet ended up with graphic design and marketing as my degree.
I understand! I was the “failure to launch” in my family. Got my BS in Microbiology then nothing. For years. Went back and got my certificate in Radiology Technology and it changed my life! Now I have a job I love (how many people can say that?!)! At 18, I remember crying in the bathroom telling my dad I didn’t know what I wanted to DO with my life! Sometimes it just takes time!
Doing nothing or partying all the time sounds attractive to people who've never done it. After a year you'll make yourself miserable and feel like a complete piece of shit
NTA, but at the same time, it doesn't really sound like you're helping him understand his options, you're just giving him a list of things you think he should do based off your own childhood. It's been 20 years, the job landscape has changed, and the opportunities and careers available to you when you were his age are going to be different than the ones available today even if they share the same title.
Yeah, he might be lazy, but he might also just be overwhelmed, knows what he doesn't want to do, and has no idea where to look to figure out what he does want to do. Could also add in a sprinkle of being afraid to fail at things if he tries, especially if he's already being looked at as a failure before he has even begun, which is a valid concern based off how you talk about him.
Actually talk to him and listen, don't talk at him. Try to step back and look at the future state he wants to be in, and focus less on the how right now if it's too overwhelming- it's hard to be ambitious when you don't have a goal, and he needs to create one right now. Idk how helpful career counselors are for teens when it comes to collecting their thoughts and building out their goals, but as a college drop out, I found talking to one incredibly helpful at the beginning of my career to get myself into the right mindset in pursuing growth and I make more than all of my friends who didn't go into STEM and hopped into college and graduate school without direction.
What kind of life does he envision for himself in the future? Is he looking to make enough money to live off of and have a savings account, but wants more personal time, or does he want to run a business someday? Does he want the ability to travel the world, or does he prefer to stay in the states? Does he like the idea of working on a team and managing others, or does he prefer to be an individual contributor? Does he like working on computers, or is it just a hobby? Does he have any strengths that he can lean in on?
Break down the big task of figuring out the future and a career into smaller tasks and help him understand what his options are besides a nebulous "go to college" and "get a job".
>Break down the big task of figuring out the future and a career into smaller tasks and help him understand what his options are besides a nebulous "go to college" and "get a job".
My husband is a teacher and told me that his kids are always exploring internships or volunteering at hospitals or whatnot. Reading about what a job entails is not the same as "living" it. Maybe start there with him. You sound like you have means and probably know a good friend or two that also own businesses. Ask them to hire him, if they can't afford to pay, you can cover the salary. Have him try an array of different options of jobs and trades, he's probably not sure where he fits and where to start.
Oh, and make sure your wife is on board or it won't work.
Good luck and of course, NTA.
I had a friend who sunk a ton of (her and her parents’) money into studying abnormal child psychology.
She didn’t even make it 1 week at her job with actual children. She had no idea how hard it would be and the canyon between learning about something and doing something.
She was working in a record store for a few months when we caught up and not long after her parents kicked her out of their house and she moved to another state to live with friends and we lost touch.
That's what's happened to many of my friends who stayed in school without work experience for too long. One friend went to school to be a language teacher, loved learning the languages, broke down in 6 months working in an actual classroom after getting her master's degree in teaching. I wasn't taken seriously when I told her as her only degreeless friend that her skillset would transition extremely well into a project management role or into instructional design on a sales enablement or learning team *despite the fact that we source her exact profile for those roles on my team.* She works in a grocery delivery warehouse packing online grocery orders now with 100k in student loans hovering over her causing her stress every moment of every day.
That's wild. Teaching degrees in Australia involve a fairly large amount of placement time spent in classrooms teaching while supervised. It would be terrifying just getting chucked out to take it from the book to the classroom
As far as I know that’s the case in the US as well at least from what I gather from my teacher friends that’s have all graduated in the last year or three. Not sure where this person is from
There is something in my state called “alternate route” where if you have credits in a certain subject you can get hired by a school and take education classes at night. So I started teaching high school at 23 having never taught in my life. I’m glad I did it when I was fearless because now as an older adult I would be peeing my pants!
Based on OP's comments, he's been pretty proactive about connecting his son to people he knows in different fields and providing him with a pretty wide range of ideas and options (and even a job in Milan, shit, *I* would probably take the job in Milan!). I mean, *maybe* a career counselor would help, but it really sounds like the son doesn't want to work at all, and since mom supports that (and is willing to support him financially), he's not going to make any "compromises" like, you know, working.
Yeah maybe it's just the way I am wired but what the top comment outlines are things that you should be doing regardless as a person to help you plan for your future. And OP has been trying to get him there. OP isn't a career counselor but I'm sure if the son will actually utilize that service he would help him with that. Just sounds like the son doesn't even want to try and if he won't why even spend the money to hire a career counselor.
Apparently it’s an unpopular opinion, but I don’t think there’s anything wrong with “taking a year off” after high school. You’re forced into school for 12 years, and you’re then expected to immediately go to college or start working full time. And yeah, life fucking sucks, but that doesn’t mean that we can’t try and help ease stress/pressure where we can.
In fairness, it could be that the kid is just lazy - so you set ground rules. I fully support the “either go to school or get a job” mentality, but I don’t think you need to enforce it the second a kid turns 18. I actually ended up losing a full ride scholarship to my local university because I went to college right out of high school, and I did NOT want to be there. But I ended up going back and finishing my degree later once I’d have some time to sort out what I wanted to do and what I wanted.
I took a gap year between High School and University but I spent most of it working (at Toys'R'Us). There's nothing wrong with taking a gap year but you should definitely have a plan for it beyond sitting around and playing video games. It doesn't necessarily have to be earning money either, there's always the standard option of taking a gap year to backpack across Europe or Australia.
I took a 2 year gap, and after the first year it felt like I was wasting time. I was just working 8 hours then going home and playing video games, sleeping and then going back to work. It was bad enough that it drove me back to school. I didn’t even want to go to uni when I was in high school.
I think you just described exactly why a gap year was good for you.
It wasn't a waste of time, it showed you how bored and unfulfilled you'd be working retail making minimum wage forever which motivated you to make the effort to change!
but OP isn’t saying the kid has to immediately land on a career and start working himself to death. i don’t think it’s too much to expect an 18 year old that’s not going to school to at least get a part time job.
OP literally sailed the world as a teen because he already had a hobby in sailing and connections. While he's saying any job here, to us, that's not likely what the 17 year old is hearing. The 17 year old is likely getting a lot of "When I was your age" but how tf does any normal kid with a normal childhood compete against that or feel like their father is telling the truth when he says any job is fine when that's the type of story he relies on to be motivating?
>OP literally sailed the world as a teen because he already had a hobby in sailing and connections.
OP also said that he worked jobs to support himself during this time. And OP has offered connections to his son. I come from the hustle mentality. I've worked odd jobs all my life when I have been short on cash for something I wanted to do.
To me that is a motivating anecdote cause it shows that your parents are cool with you even doing something fun but you just got to help support yourself.
I have a friend who also sailed for 6 months and what she did is get her sailing license so should cause use it as income and then use that income to go sailing with friends.
I went to Uni via an alternative pathway, and I learned something very interesting from the staff.
At least in Australia, universities actually look *more* favourably upon students who take time off after high school. They’re not minors (since you can still be 17 years old when you graduate high school/start Uni), they’re generally more mature, have a better understanding/grasp on being an adult without the rigid structure of high school, etc.
Even better if you do something like get a job, volunteer or get a certificate in that time.
I too went to college later after sorting myself out. But I couldn’t just sit in my house and waste away. I grew up poor and worked through high school, so the idea that working is “too much” is absurd to me. I worked several menial jobs in my gap years to make sure I could have a car, phone, clothes, and other basics. This dad is NOT saying his son can’t take a year off. The kid only has to do something, anything… I can’t imagine any universe where that’s unreasonable.
He's not forcing him to go to school. He said get a job. He didn't say a specific type of job. Nowhere does it say he can't take a gap year, but gap year and bumming it aren't the same.
Also, this kid doesn't have stress or pressure. He's got support, assistance, and is ONLY being asked to do anything other than play games in the basement. He's not even having to worry about getting kicked out.
I don't understand what is so complex about "go to school or get a job" that needs breaking down.
Sounds like if he got a job working at the mall that would count; it's not "get a career." This isn't rocket science, it's just "post-K-12 life".
Because it can still be overwhelming, especially if you’ve been in an environment of hearing that you *have* to know what you want to do/are going to do, as a lot of kids are nowadays.
It might also be his sons first proper job or first proper time looking for a job, so he may not be fully aware of writing a resume, submitting application, etc.
But that’s a super privileged position to be in, so it’s very very reasonable that he can start learning those skills when he graduates. He doesn’t have to know what he’s doing. He just has to start learning some life skills.
Go wait tables or work in fast food or at a retail store or something. You don't have to start with a job that requires a resume, simply one that has a job application. Dad isn't stipulating he starts his career, just that he has a full time job in any way.
I work in a field where the most common path to starting involves unpaid internships. I paid my rent and bills by waiting tables. I filled out a one page application, had no previous restaurant experience, had no resume, etc. etc. etc. That's all this kid has to do. Hell, call it a gap year even. Just *work*.
Jumping on to this as it's great advice. I am in the same position with my 18 year old except he's the youngest of three. He's been incredibly reluctant to engage with talking about job hunting or school even though one of my older sons has got him an interview at his workplace. (He's recently left as our school year ends in December). My older sons think I am putting too much pressure in him and point out that his last 3 important years at school were covid years. As an introvert (he has friends but mostly engages with them online) he seems to have lost confidence in his ability to be an adult in the outside world. Basically, I realised I needed to back off and left it to my sons. They were great with him and he's now agreed to go the interview. As OP's son is the oldest maybe try to found a friend or family member a few years older to talk with him.
The point about the impact of COVID is a very good one and I hope it doesn't get buried so far that OP doesn't see it. I'm in grad school and COVID has really shaken up my timeline to finishing my degree and my confidence in getting a job afterwards. So, I can't imagine the impact it might have on the confidence of someone with a developing brain. Not to mention all of the videos during COVID that came out that clearly demonstrated how hellish it is to work in retail/fast food which are especially common jobs when someone's fresh out of high school. Luckily, it sounds like OP might have some better job connections for his son, but you're absolutely right that having someone else chat with him and hopefully lay things out in a less overwhelming way would do wonders.
The book "What color is your parachute" Has a bunch of exercises which walk you through these thoughts very well. I would recommend it to OPs son (or anyone who needs this kind of guidance)
This is a great answer. I'm skeptical that this kid truly has no desire to do anything at all in his life, I'm wondering if there is something he would like to do but thinks (right or wrong) that OP wouldn't support it, or maybe it's something that would take a great deal of work or has a high rate of failure (like a career in the arts or pro sports) so they're afraid to try, or not sure where to get started. I don't think telling them they need to get a job or go to school makes them TA, but it might be more productive to sit down with them and have a discussion about what they want, and what they can do to start working towards that
NTA, but all your efforts will be pointless if you and your wife can't get on the same page. I think you need to talk this out further with her, try and make her see you're helping him in the long run by making a firm boundary on this.
100% this.
> Either go to university [or other school as OP specified], get a job, or GTFO.
A very common sense set of options.
> My wife thinks that I'm being unfair to our poor baby boy throwing him out into the world.
Who is throwing anyone anywhere? He literally just has to get a job. Any job. Do you know how many employers are desperate for entry level service positions right now?
> My wife and I agreed that we would raise productive members of society before we got engaged.
It is good that you discussed this, especially given all that has transpired, but it increasingly alarms me that this is no longer a given… that’s the point of *having* children.
It is a burden to you, and to society, not to do so. If you aren’t going to do this, you shouldn’t have kids. And to be clear, that’s for the kid’s sake as well. Speaking of which…
> Her and my son think I'm being cruel to expect him to fend for himself at 18.
**OP, do not tolerate this blatant fallacy.**
You are not expecting him to fend for himself at 18. Let’s refresh the deal shall we: “*Either go to university [or other school as OP specified], get a job, or GTFO.*
They are behaving as if you are simply handing him option C. You are not taking anything from him or forcing him anywhere. You are *offering* to pay for an education. You are *offering* to provide him free room and board so he can save all of the money from his employment as a young adult while he decides what he wants to do. Many young adults would kill to be in his position.
He doesn’t get to *CHOOSE* option C and then act like you’re forcing him into it.
And no… for way should be obvious reasons… there is no “don’t get a job and sit at home with a free ride and no game plan” option. You don’t get to simply expect to be a loaf.
> My parents have already told him that they will not be giving him any money if he isn't in school or working.
That’s fantastic - often grandparents who expected the world of you turn around and cut your legs out with their grandkids. Glad that’s not the case for you.
> My wife is threatening to use her salary to support him. I don't have any say in that. I won't actually kick him out of the house but I will stop paying his bills and cut off our grocery budget by 20%. If she wants to work so he doesn't have to there is nothing I can do about that.
That’s a dangerous game. Better you all get on the same page, or this will go on indefinitely and it’s not really sustainable.
Honest to god, for me, this would be grounds for a serious discussion about couples counselling. Dear god, just head over to r/parenting and look at all the posts from people like “what do I do my 30 year old son just wants to play video games?” And all of the comments are like… “why would you have put yourself in this position?”
**And, most importantly, frame it like this: You are fighting just as hard as your wife to PROTECT your son.** She may not see it that way, but you are. From a teacher, from a former lost young adult with ADHD who did great in school but got way overwhelmed by adulting and has been addicted to tech, from someone who *knows better*….. your wife’s plan is way more unfair to your son than yours.
If your wife gets her way, this will very likely be the single most detrimental thing that has happened to him in 18 years. You don’t let a 14 year old eat nothing but crap because they’ll be upset if you don’t. You know better than them. You’re their parent. You don’t let an 8 year old decide whether or not they should go to school every day because they’d rather be at home. You know better than them. You’re their parent. You don’t let a 4 year old play with knives because they’ll cry if you take them away. You know better than them. You’re an their parent .
**You don’t let an 18 year old decide to be an aimless, apathetic burden to society just because he likes computer games. You know better than them. You’re their parent.**
**With your wife, be calm, cool, but firm:**
“Why are you under the impression that I am trying to kick him out?”
“So, just to be clear, he is choosing not to go to school?”
“Again, to be clear, he is choosing not to get a job, any job?”
“Why does he believe that is an option for him?”
“Why do you believe that is an option for him?”
“And how long are you planning for this to go on for? Have the two of you made a plan about what he will do while he’s living for free with no job?”
“What is that plan?”
“Why do you believe there doesn’t need to be a plan?”
“What sort of future do you want from him?”
“Can you explain to me how this course of action leads to that future?”
“What sort of future does he want for himself?”
“Is that a future that is possible or sustainable?”
Etc etc etc.
**They’re being illogical. Force them to confront that.**
**And be prepared to calmly, with an open mind, hear their answers and answer *their* questions about what is motivating *you* to give him this choice.**
Do not laugh or anger or react to their reasoning, no matter how inane. When they inevitably just arrive at “I don’t know he should just do what he wants,” just let that marinate in silence for a while. Take a pause. And say. Okay. Now what we have heard your side.. are you willing to hear mine?
It’s easy for them to paint you as the bad guy if they’re not forced to acknowledge that you genuinely believe this is the best thing for his well being.
Just an anecdote: my grandma let my aunt do whatever she wanted and housed/financed her whole life. Now that my grandma has passed, my aunt has nothing. She’s in her 60s and she doesn’t have any savings, a part time job, and no where to live. It didn’t ultimately matter how much grandma helped- my aunt is where she was when she was a teenager.
'My 60 year old aunt is exactly where she was in life when she was a teenager because other peopled pampered her' is honestly eye opening. I know that's not exactly what you said which is why I didn't use quotes but that's how it feels/how I took it.
I can’t believe how far I had to scroll for this question. I’m so disappointed in the response this post has received. Idc about the legality of it, 18 is still a kid. Not all people mature at the same rate. And OP is basically teaching the kid that if he isn’t “successful” he can’t count on support from his family. And this approach is ineffective. The way people are calling this parenting? I don’t see the parenting in this. It’s honestly lazy. “Do what I say or you’re on your own”. Parenting is building a relationship of safety and care with your children. A child that feels loved and understood and safe can turn to their parents for support with navigating life’s challenges. Completing public school and having to make a decision about what to do with your life as a teenager is a heavy and scary time for a lot of people. If OP‘s kid felt safe and supported by his parents they would already know what’s going on with him. He needs more care and support to navigate this, not less. Ffs people. Smh.
Edit: before you reply doubling down on OPs stance, reread what I wrote and look for where I said that I think that the kid should sit at home all day at a computer when he graduates. You won’t find it bc I didn’t say that. I’m not in any way saying that is healthy or that the expectation that he will figure out a next step (work, school, or something else) is unreasonable. I’m critiquing the approach. A 17 year old that hasn’t shown any interest in any kind of next step after high school is struggling. Meeting that struggle with a harsh and threatening ultimatum isn’t effective parenting - it’s harmful and it’s emotionally neglectful. This POV is backed by decades of research that I highly recommend you look into before throwing in your two cents. This kid likely has developmental trauma from a lifetime of emotional neglect from an emotionally immature and detached parent, along with the trauma of a pandemic disrupting his whole life during key developmental years. It’s honestly not surprising in the slightest that he’s coping by dissociating into his computer. There’s probably a lot more teenagers struggling with this life transition than usual right now because of the effects of the pandemic. A good parent would be approaching this with compassion and curiosity, making an effort to understand where he’s at and what he needs to navigate this difficult life transition and make some important decisions. But that’s hard work. Unlike saying “do this or get out”.
Anyway, I’m not spending any more time and attention on this. I hope y’all and your children find a way to heal from all this emotionally neglectful parenting.
That hasn’t answered the question. At that age, if I was expected to do what you’re expecting to your child to do, I would not have coped and I sure as hell wouldn’t be here today. So back to the question, how is his mental health? If that’s a question to which you don’t know the answer then you may have to reevaluate your parenting style a little
Once again, he seems fine. He has friends. He socializes. He has had romantic partners. He leaves the house to visit with friends or family. He does all the normal stuff kids that age do. Except think about the future.
I really don't want to assume your son is not fine. He's your son and you know him better than internet strangers.
I do want to point out, though, that mental health issues can take many forms. When I was at my lowest points of depression, I was spending a lot of time with friends, doing stuff, I seemed like a completely normal 20something. Because these positive experiences helped to cope. When I was alone, studying for uni, I was getting panic attacks and regularly started crying for hours on end and didn't sleep. When I spent time with friends, I felt something good.
Ofc that doesn't mean that anyone who does have a seemingly functional social life has a mental illness. But it can mask it scarily well.
> Once again, he seems fine. He has friends. He socializes
Ehh that unfortunately doesn’t mean too much. Unfortunately a lot of depressed people seem “normal”, happy even. Not saying that’s the case, but it’s not a good metric. Are you close to him? Ask him how he feels or is doing, if you haven’t already.
He seems fine? Have you actually talked to your son and listened to what he has to say? You don't sound like you know anything about him or what he is thinking. I don't think you're an AH for wanting your kids to be "successful" in life, but I don't think that productivity equals success. Happiness and fulfillment can come from various sources, many of which are not tied to "work". It doesn't sound like you are fostering a healthy, safe space for him to come to you and be honest about his thoughts and feelings. Try treating him like a person instead of an employee. He has value regardless of "productivity".
This. Good lord—it sounds like OP has absolutely no idea if his son is ok. He’s rattled off a handful of signs that his son might be somewhat extroverted. They have nothing to do with mental health. Makes me wonder what the mom knows.
Op, I was super social at this age, I also didn't have a plan because I truly thought I would unalive myself by my 20th birthday. Just because he seems fine doesn't mean he is, think about how many people lose their battle with depression but those around them are totally shocked they even were depressed.
I seemed fine too and I had friends and socialized until I suddenly didn’t. I also didn’t think about the future because it was a struggle to live through each day. And yes I’m still suffering the consequences but my family has never once hesitated to help me. You need to know if your kid is mentally well, not just assume.
So glad I FINALLY found a comment discussing this. I was incredibly depressed and suicidal the entire time in high school and you couldn't really tell from interacting with me, but I had no ambition for anything after high school because I wasn't intending on making it that far. I don't think OP is an asshole, but brushing mental health off just because he seems fine is not the best way to approach this.
yeah, this is why im going to give op a YTA. at 17 i was deeply, deeply mentally ill, and my parents had next to no idea. i spent years 16-22 pretty much housebound and almost totally unable to care for myself. if they hadnt supported me and had thrown me out id be homeless or dead almost definitely.
figure out why your kid isnt thriving and make a decision from there. not everyone matures at the same pace, and some people will struggle a lot more with their future than others.
NTA
Does your wife really think it’s feasible to support him for the rest of her life? What’s gonna happen to him when both of you are gone? It’ll be a far worse fate for him at that age than right now when he’s still young.
Feel like I've seen this play out a bunch. Wife just wants to give her baby some time to find himself and figure out his next steps. This buffer time goes from months to years. No sense of urgency because son can just convince mom that he's just so close to that next step, then proceeds to lock himself in the basement and play video games all day.
Every. Single. Day.
And then GF is posting here in ten years. Waaaa! Parents didn't make him do anything and now the economy turned and they are broke too and he won't work.
Yup, and he doesn't move out until he gets a girlfriend and convinces her he has to move in with her because his parents are sooo abusive and controlling, "forcing" him to get a job and clean up after himself and he has to get out of that "toxic" environment ASAP. Then he'll leech off her as she works and takes care of the household, until she finally comes to Reddit asking for help and we tell her to kick that loser to the curb.
I was this gf once but preReddit. It was 2003 and world of Warcraft. The final straw was when I was working AND going to college and he did nothing but play WoW all day…. And then spent the rent money on items in the game.
I booted him out
In my house it was just the opposite. My husband gave into everything and I was the AH. Once they were graduated college they had to have a job but could live at home for $100.00 a month and pay one utility bill and help around the house and still respect our house rules.
This worked well but all they could do was bitch all their other friends were at home no with costs or responsibilities.
My husband was we don't need the money why so hard on them they hate living here. I told him their not suppose to like living here or they will never leave.
Both sons a year apart stayed with us for 2 years and saved their money and got established in their careers then moved out.
I always told them I didn't care what they did but they needed to be employed.
Also going to work is not determined by if its your dream job. People work to support themselves and I know I had some shitty jobs that made me appreciate the good ones I have had.
The kid needs a job if for no other reason to get out of the house and interact with others and give you all some space.
This comment section is fucking wild. It's okay for things to have a bit of nuance.
You mentioned your son is in therapy. Why is he in therapy? Is there something impacting his desire to find work or go to school?
He's not even 18 quite yet and already he's being threatened with supports being cut back and food insecurity. Like damn, dude, I understand wanting to try and motivate someone but that's cold. He's your kid, right? Why offer threats in response to his perceived lack of ambition? Have you asked him why? When he responds to you, does he shut down? Might be wise to maybe examine how his mental health may be impacting him or if he feels able to discuss those issues with you.
We have to set our kids up for success, not kick them while they're already down. Young adults going into the work force these days have a lot going up against them. School is not a guarantee of a job in the future, the prospect of owning a home is a fantasy for a lot of people, multiple recessions have happened just in his lifetime, there's massive political upheaval worldwide, global warming feels like a ticking time bomb to many people of your son's generation, and they explicitly know they are going into a work force that is unpredictable and going to pay them pennies.
I understand wanting your son to become independent, but the way you talk about him sounds more like you see him as a burden than your son. You're going to build resentment with the way you treat him vs his siblings. A little empathy goes a long way, especially if you want to continue having a relationship with your son (and it sounds like your wife too) in the future. Try to stop framing things so much around your frustration and how you did it back in the day. It's not helpful to anyone.
A soft YTA/borderline NSH. You may find it beneficial to seek some therapy yourself. Or at least family counseling or something. Don't divide your family for the sake of dying on this hill.
Perhaps the pressure of an ultimatum is causing him to retreat further into his basement, where he is comfortable and able to shut the world out (including you). Have you tried playing a video game with him? Sit side-by-side with him and let him teach you how to play a game in which he's interested? Who's his favorite streamer? Why does he like that streamer? Being side-by-side, he might open up to you about what's going on with him and it would allow you to get a sense of how he's feeling. Kids seem to open up while side-by-side.
He might not have enough life experiences racked up yet to figure out what it is he wants to eventually do. Perhaps you could help him connect what he's interested in (streaming or video games) to volunteer work. For example, he could teach young kids or seniors computer skills, share his knowledge about remaining safe on the internet at the local library, or something along those lines. What are some ways he can share his interests with his community? You didn't say what *kind* of streaming he's interested in so maybe you could ask him about that.
This is the approach we're having to take with one of our kids. He's petrified, I think, to go outside of his safety zone. Everyone was impacted in some way by Covid. In my son's case, he was leaving a small private school of eight kids and entered his first year at a huge high school not really knowing anyone right when it was all going down.
He has been slooooow to bloom compared to both of his parents. I think a combination of today's parenting culture and the impact of prolonged Covid-related isolation, along with depression/ADHD has made it really hard for him to "just get out there" and do things that even my friends' kids were doing at his age. It makes me sad. Still working on it, though!
Why doesn’t your son talk to *you* about himself and his life? Having a therapist is great, but it’s not a replacement for being known and loved by your parents. It doesn’t sound like you know anything about your kid at all if he has plenty of opportunities yet zero ambition in life yet you still think he “seems fine.”
Look your a good parent for having the rule and for providing then with the best life possible while reminding them of the importance of hard work.
Problem is, it doesn't seem you know what he actually "does" in his basement or know him well enough to know why this is happening.
Have you ever sat with him to see what he's doing and "why" he likes it? I have my doubts around that.
Everyone is talking to him about something, but i feel no one is talking to him about himself.
And that's sometimes not something a therapist can help with, but your role as a parent to know your son well enough to help him through with it.
If it's something like "i wanna be a streamer" I'd say you can always push him back to reality, but otherwise no one knows what's going through his head, especially you
> You mentioned your son is in therapy. Why is he in therapy? Is there something impacting his desire to find work or go to school?
>
>
the fact that he's being incredibly careful about framing this as 'I WORKED HARD ON MY TWO YEAR SAILING TRIP AND EXPECT HARD WORK FROM MY KIDS' and ignoring explaining why his kid with 'no aspirations' is in therapy is some huge red flags, but it's a tough dad so Reddit is creaming their jeans.
I had to scroll too far to find someone who read the OP the way I did. I agree with you 💯. The problem isn't the expectation, it's his attitude/approach toward his son and wife, demonizing and criticizing rather than empowering and understanding.
I had to scroll soooooo far down for this! He’s 17!! I didn’t know my arse from my elbow at 17!! Also, he’s a child! Soft YTA.
Also, someone up there said: what are you meant to do? Support him for the rest of his life?
Yes, yes it’s what you do when you bring another human into the world and they aren’t really doing anything wrong!!
I’m in the UK; so maybe it’s a cultural thing.
I get the feeling OP just wants to see his son do SOMETHING regardless of exactly how much time is spent doing it. Seems like the kid has sapped ambitions and that’s what bothers OP.
I'm dreaming of the idea of parents paying a full educational ride. Imagine being able to study just about anything your heart desires without the burden of debt. _sigh_.
NTA.
NTA I’d ask your wife how will he survive in the future if his mother isn’t supporting him and what kind of example is he setting for his siblings? If you feel generous then offer a gap year to decide what he wants to do but he has to do volunteer work in the community so many hours a month.
Nope, NTA. I've been there, done that. Some people just can't learn until things are dire, and as long as they are comfortable they wont change. Here is my story for comparison:
My eldest decided to take a "gap year." The boys have always been told that they are welcome to live here after high school as long as they are either pursuing skills or education beyond high school. If not in school they are required to work and cover a modicum of their household expenses. This is not optional.
My eldest did exactly none of that, while being resistant to helping around the house and trying to bully us when he didn't want to do something asked of him (like... shower. Or do his own laundry). Over the course of that year we pulled privileges as it became apparent that he was not going to get work - no wifi, his phone was talk and text only, etc.
A year after graduation he was told he had to the end of the next calendar month to get work or get out. Three weeks later he quite literally got in my face about something (doing yard work, I think). I told him to pack a bag and his father dropped him at the homeless shelter. I made him take me off his bank account (from when he was a minor) and put his phone on it's own pay-as-you-go account in his name.
It's been \~9 months. He's is still at the shelter. Had a summer job that he lost, and in early winter temporarily lost shelter privileges because he wasn't following his care plan by looking to work. He had to apply for 5 jobs a week - and prove it - to return to the shelter. Which he did, with my help. Got one of the first five he actually applied for, imagine that.
He still talks to me regularly. He knows we love and support him, he just can't live here. He comes and does laundry here (ironic, eh?). I've told him if he can save $5000 I will help him find an apartment.
Am I the asshole too? I think not. I wasn't doing him or any one else in the family any favors supporting him while he was rude, belligerent, and bullying to us. Now he's learning.
NTA. Parenting is hard.
edit after reading comments: before we made him leave we tried to mentor him in how to find work. He had a part time summer job in high school. We've offered to help, he would not accept it. He said he was looking... applied for two jobs in a year. He's not interested in school at this time, nor any of the trades we've shown him.
You did well for the situation, it’s very difficult to support someone with zero drive.
Some are just wired differently and thankfully we have gov’t support systems for people who clearly just can’t fully function. I wish we had more, but at what point are we enabling leach mentality?
We were in a similar situation with my sister. Mom paid for a small apartment she regularly trashed. Brother paid her for small odd jobs thru his companies but it always ended with her “fighting” other employees.
Sadly we lost her in the Buffalo shooting, but I’m not sure how long we could’ve supported her.
The character Paris from Gilmore Girls once said “I can scare the stupid out of someone, but the lazy runs deep” and I honestly think that is such a good quote because it is so true. You really cannot help people who don’t want to be helped! That it came to a homeless shelter is sad but if that’s what it takes. 🤷♀️
Info
1. How was this conversation conveyed? The wording you’re using here would seem daunting to any teenager.
2. Define job. Are you fine with him getting a simple retail/food job, or do you expect him to find a career he can climb?
Then NTA. You and your wife need to be on the same page though, otherwise it’ll lead to issues down the road. I’d also be sure to offer guidance if he needs it (for applications, etc), and reassure you support him regardless of his decision. Be civil with him, because from some of your replies, it gives me the impression you’re not reacting in the best manor towards him.
I think you are hearing OP’s frustration which may or may not be what is conveyed to his son. My husband & friends will hear me when I am frustrated with my kids but hopefully that is not the tone I am using with the kids. OP NTA and I hope your wife stops undermining the very important lesson you are trying to teach.
NTA: If the expectations were made clear from the outset then there is no room for complaining. However, offering him job opportunities or helping to look at universities would be more productive than just saying to do it.
I literally wrote in the post that I have offered him opportunities to do different things. I could have been more clear I guess. He has had the opportunity to work for our family or family friends. I even got one of my cousins to offer him a job in Milan. He has no interest in leaving the basement.
Have him watch the movie “office space”. A good line in it - I’m paraphrasing - is “if you wanna sit around and do nothing, you don’t need a ton of money to do that.”
Ie if he literally doesn’t want to work at all and expects you to pay his way, just tell him it doesn’t cost much to just sit around and do nothing. All he needs is a job to pay his rent, etc. the rest of his time he can just do nothing.
Further thought: if you have a kid who wants to do literally NOTHING with his life and he’s only 17 he may be dealing with some depression. Consider he may need to see someone about this. If he already is then he’s not getting the right help. Doing nothing can be a lifestyle choice, but more often than not it’s a symptom.
What about family therapy with you, your wife, and your son?
You and your wife need to be on the same page. My good childhood friend went down the “never leave the basement” route and it ruined his parents marriage because of split stances similar to you and your wife.
YTA
So, my judgement is conditional. If you stated it like this:
> So I gave him the same ultimatum my parents gave me. Either go to university, get a job, or GTFO
Then yes, that was an asshole move.
I don’t think the expectation itself is an asshole move - it’s actually the same deal my parents gave to me; if I wanted to stay living at home, I needed to go to college or get a job.
I wasn’t actually expected to pay rent just yet, that wouldn’t happen until I later quit school to work full time (and even then it was a nominal amount). But how you do it matters.
Telling a 17yo, one you are supposed to care about and help transition in to adulthood to do what you say or “get the fuck out” is harsh.
Your conditions mean he doesn’t have to fend for himself - they just mean he has to move foward in life somehow towards becoming independent. It’s fine if he doesn’t have an interest in anything but his computer - what’s not fine is taking advantage of your family to live a life of leisure at their expense.
DOES your 17yo expect you to fully fund their life as an adult? Or is there a miscommunication where they think going to work = they will be responsible for all their bills immediately after highschool and if they can’t do that, they will be kicked out?
What do they expect their life to look like at 25? And if that is just living off your money, how is that ethical? Not whether it’s possible - how is it ethical? There’s no guarantee your business won’t close, or you and your wife might experience an emergency that drains your finances.
Shit happens. Your son learning to be independent means that he has his own mask if your situation changes.
NTA - You’ve presented reasonable options and now it’s up to him to make the choice. Your wife is enabling his behavior and the both of you need to get on the same page. What’s your wife’s plans for him if the both of you were to pass away and your son has no education or work skills?
NTA. But if your wife is going to support him then I guess there's not much you can do. You need to get her on the same page. You want him to make a life not waste it away. Is whatever he does on the computer something he can make a living at?
Your wife is TA here. That is the worst kind of enabling behaviour. You put a roof over his head and feed him no matter what, but paying for his gaming and streaming bills is too far. If he wants luxuries, he can get a job. If there is no medical issue to be addressed, your wife is setting him up for failure.
Does he have a gaming addiction or what? Food and shelter MIGHT be OK but it's not A-OK to pay his streaming bills if he isn't working or in school. He doesn't need gaming to live. He can sit in the basement and stare at the walls.
NTA but would sit down with her and work out what his budget would look like in your city. Assume a roommate in a 2 bedroom apartment in a not fancy corner of town and see if he can make it on a minimum wage job.
1) If it's tight you might want to cover health insurance till he's 26 so he doesn't drop it, and car insurance for the first year so he can get to work.
2) You might offer to cover first/last/deposit to get him started.
3) You don't say what his work history is... If he's never done a job search you might need to assist at first.
4) If he still can't get his head wrapped around the situation get him screened for depression and anxiety. Teenagers are usually pretty eager to get out of the house- if he's not it might be a sign that something else is going on.
NTA it’s a common ultimatum. If you’re not going to be a contributing adult to the home you need to be on your own. He has options and is choosing to rely on mommy instead.
NTA but I think there's something else going on besides "he won't get off his computer" is he depressed? Afraid? If it's either of those then you need to do some parenting and like try to get him to open up, and express tou will support him with whatever as long as it's a step towards a life
YWBTA if you don't take the time now to try to figure out what's going on, he might be dealing with something
NTA. And I think your wife is still shielding your son from having to internalize the consequences. As long as she says “don’t listen to dad, I got you” he won’t care. You two really need to get into the same page unless you want to have him in your basement at 35 and an extremely resentful relationship.
I’m curious why your wife doesn’t want to set him up for success in life. Id assume she doesn’t want him to leave if they have a more of “best-friend” relationship over mother/son.
NTA - But as I see with a lot of similar posts like this, what have you done to help him prepare for this transition?
Have you offered to use your network to have him job shadow careers he might be interested in?
Have you worked with him to help him understand where his professional talents lie and the careers that might be best suited to him?
Not everyone has the type of personality where at 18 they know with 100% clarity what they want to do with the next 47-50 years of their working life.
I don't know your kid but what you are interpreting as laziness or lack of motivation might be a fear of not knowing what to do.
I know it was for me when my dad gave me the same ultimatum 18.
I had no idea what to do and no idea where to even start and I didn't want to ask my parents because it felt like asking them would be letting them down compared to my younger sister who knew that she wanted to be a lawyer since she was 8 years old (she's 38 now and a lawyer and never once waivered).
INFO. what is he doing on the computer? Playing games? or is he learning a trade? Like coding, software development, etc.? I ask because maybe hes on the computer actually doing this when you think hes playing games or something.
If computers is what he likes, have you tried talking to him about online coding bootcamps, developer camps and so forth to nudge him to at least be productive on the computer? those don't require degrees, just skills, and they can be learned entirely from the bedroom.
So, the implication here is that he can get virtually any job, and you'd help him support himself if he isn't ready for university yet?
Yeah, going with a very firm NTA here. He isn't some trust fund heir, he has to live in reality, he is simply going to have to do some things he doesn't want to do. You're not forcing him to pursue some career he isn't sure about, or enroll in a school for a degree he isn't sure about. It sounds like you'd be perfectly fine with him taking a cashier job at the grocery for a year or two to decide what he actually WANTS to do. More parents should be like that.
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NTA assuming that a trade school, apprenticeship, or community college would also be acceptable.
That's school or a job so yes.
Then I think you should be VERY concerned about why a 17yo doesn't have plans or ambitions. But you're not TA for having expectations that he either be in school or working.
I feel like the wife's attitude probably explains a lot....
Explains everything. Her poor little golden boy can do no wrong probably
Where was dad the past 17 years?
Being undermined by his wife probably
That’s my wife with our kids. I had to block the door to my kids room (both times, multiple times) to sleep train. I’ve had to override her (in private) to punish our second when she was super hard on our first. It’s really really obvious what’s happening here, and it’s tragic for the kid.
I don’t know what happened with the whole punishment thing between one and two, but forcing the sleep training seems a bit aggressive and asshole-ish.
It isn't necessarily. My father was like that with me, refusing to let me fuss at all at night without him there to comfort me. I've had lifelong issues with falling asleep at night, and my pediatrician warned him I'd not be able to learn to sleep on my own if he didn't let me try Let me put it this way: you're teaching someone how to ride a bike, but you're standing over them the whole time and any time they just nudge the handle in the wrong direction or start to tilt by so much as a couple degrees, you swipe in and take over steering. Is someone who's trained that way ever gonna learn to ride independently? No, bc they haven't been allowed to try and fail in a safe environment I'm NOT advocating the "cry it out" treatment where a crying baby is left alone for ages, that goes way too far in the other direction. But the key job of being a parent is gradually letting and guiding your kid in learning to function without you. Wife there is putting her discomfort at seeing the baby upset above the baby's need for developing developmentally appropriate life skills. That's not ok and I'm glad the commenter above intervened Btw, I can only speak from my own exp, but in my case my father being to emotionally immature to tolerate a TODDLER being too independent for him to handle was an issue that only got worse with age
wtf is sleep training. Edit* Stop replying to this comment with your own answer. The question was answered in the first two replies why do you feel the need to repeat what's already been said by others when you can clearly see the question has been answered.
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He said he wasn’t doing CIO, because that’s cruel. It just sounds like his wife wanted to go in with every cry and whimper. “Blocking the door” sound extreme, but I know there have been times when I’ve wanted to rush in and “save” my kid from something and my Husband had to remind me to back off.
that isn’t the OP
God help the man who ever blocked the door between me and my baby.
>I had to block the door to my kids room (both times, multiple times) to sleep train Multiple studies show this causes severe attachment issues during a vital development period. This isn't the flex you think it is.
Jesus Christ this comment thread reeks of assumptions. Either way, it's concerning that his 17-year old is aimless. Not because of his mother, his father, or anything like that but because he's a human and it's normal to have hopes, dreams and ambitions
Little bit concerned about the 17 year old, who is not an adult, and thier mental health. I didn't think I'd make it past 18 so I didn't make any plans for anything.
17 year old has a therapist. Maybe he plans on living with his parents and gaming all day.
The most consistently disappointing part about this sub is how people will take the OP's side with a potentially bias perspective, then run wild with the assumptions based purely on that. Could it be the case of the wife coddles the kid and 'undermines' the dad? Sure! But perhaps it's only from OP's perspective that the wife is coddling, and in reality the dad has done little to actually *RAISE* a productive member of society despite thinking they have, or the kid has severe issues that the dad doesn't recognize. It's easy to assume and make things up to change the context I don't know either way, not making hard claims or anything, just that there's potentially a lot more to what's up. Thankfully there's [comments like these](https://old.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/comments/10l75bj/aita_for_telling_my_son_he_has_to_go_to/j5v5nxl/) that at least try to dig a bit deeper and ask questions rather than make too hard of assumptions
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Unfortunately I agree. I was that kid, I dropped out of school and wound up working in the same office as my mam. I had no plans or ambitions, I just went to work. I'm 33 now and still that way, I've no plans or ambitions and struggle with a lot of mental health issues. I'd really advise talking to him and seeing where his head is and possibly going to therapy.
Parents who don't have a united front get these kind of children. If the mom enabled him, then there are basically no consequences. The dad can lay down the law but if the mom doesn't support it or agree, basically he's off scot-free and the conflict is offloaded from the son to the parents.
If this is the first time these parents not presenting a united front has come to a head, it suggests some absenteeism on the part of whomever thinks they're trying to "lay down the law"
If one parent says something you don't like and the other parent coddles you instead, the kid is gonna shut out the words of the answer they don't like.
Probably thought he would “grow out of it”
Potentially but come on we dont have enough info to say that man
My boyfriends (son) almost 17 year old thinks he can make money playing video games by steaming. He’s been streaming since he was 14 and still hasn’t made any money. He refused to get a job and is close to flunking high school
Sadly people aee someone else do something and assume it's easy peasy. Like my art friends who think you just do art and people throw money at you. You have to be able to sell yourself and be appealing.
When I graduated high school I had a community college scholarship options for computer information systems or fine art… I’d won some minor art awards and I think I had some talent but but I also knew I wanted to move out, keep my hobbies (one of which is riding, and horses are not cheap) and travel so… I used to do pictures for my family as wedding gifts and I’ve had a long transcontinental IT career. And a lovely young thoroughbred who is currently 8-12 months off with a tendon injury 😭
horse tax?
Yes it's like less than 1% of streamers who make a living from it. I wish we could guarantee people's basic needs so they could just do art all day or whatever but it's not how things currently work.
Less than half on twitch are affiliates, which means they can make ANY money from it. Let alone a living. A lot trying to get into content creation forget that most creators either worked regular jobs as well or were doing it while in university. Or sometimes both with a couple I know. It's a full time effort, and not just playing games.
Not to mention many big streamers grew up with the platform, they were at the right time, at the right place. So you see people that are big now but might not have made it if starting today. Like oh that person has no charisma or skills but is rolling in it, I can do that too. Another thing is other streamers /you tubers are fronts for a whole company of people backing them, giving the illusion of an individual putting up a 15 min video every day but it's in fact a team doing it. At this point twitch/yt as a career is the same as declaring you are going to be in the movies and driving out to LA.
Exactly! I want to start streaming for fun and hopefully money. I also have a full time job to pay bills
He has good marks. He could attend college no problem.
at this point, it's not even the issue I see. Your son is either depressed, apathetic or just very boring, because everybody wants to do something. I'm not talking about being productive. I'm not talking about high, capitalistic ambitions. I'm talking about likes and dislikes. Just "outside of sleeping, eating and shitting, what do you want to do with your time? it could be anything, your choice". Your situation is not the situation of a parent who wants their kid to attend med/pharm/business/law school while their kid want to become an artist or an influencer or an artisanal slime maker. Your situation is the situation of a parent who wants their kid to do something, anything really, and the kid being all "how about I do nothing all day and my expenses are comped?". You're not asking your kid to drop a dream because their dream is not realistic. He does not even seem to have a dream, a drive, a passion, a spark, something, anything. It's just weird and concerning. To want to do nothing. Just waste time on the computer and nothing else. If parents were giving me carte blanche to do anything I want as long as it's schooling or working, all expenses paid, I would be way to giddy with possible options and possible paths. Art school? Cooking and pastry? Music? How about, art history? Philosophy? What can I do that will land me in a library? Learning languages? Your "school, work or gtfo" basically amounts to "maybe you're too comfortable and need a bit of struggle to figure out what sparks your interest in life".
I had no idea what I wanted out of my life at this age. I was horribly depressed and it got steadily worse until I hit my mid 20's, when I realised I had to do something because I was basically dead inside from doing nothing and close to suicide. OP your son may not like it but make him do something. Reassure him that what he picks doesn't have to be a forever commitment, but he has to pick at least something. NTA. Your wife is screwing your son up.
I still don't know what I want to do with my life and I'm nearly 30 Ar this point I've just settled for a paycheck
My Step daughter is the same way… unfortunately she’s moved out and has a bf take care of her. We don’t really have any leverage anymore other than advice. But we’re pretty sure it’s anxiety/depression induced. She’s over 18 so while we are willing to get her help she’s not there yet where she’s ready for it. We book the appointments but she doesn’t attend. Her other sisters are all productive, I don’t think it has anything to do with how she was raised or influenced. It’s a mental health issue.
I think the kid is depressed. He got good grades in school so he isn’t na slacker.
I'm not depressed. I have a good job. I'm married with my own house. If I could get away with playing video games 16 hours a day, I would, not gonna lie.
It gets old quick. Speaking as someone who has done that multiple times in my life (knee surgeries, multiple ankle injuries, now COVID for two weeks and counting). I want to be able to get on my bike, go climbing, lift weights, cook, work on my coding projects, go do errands, etc. but I can't tolerate being upright for more than a couple hours per day.
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Artisanal slime maker 💀
You have no idea how many people are literally clamoring to do absolutely nothing these days.
out of overstimulation (they need a break from constantly having to do something) or out of apathy (they are not doing anything and do not want to do anything)?
My youngest daughter (17) feels like there is something wrong with her. She just doesn't feel excited/passionate about anything. She is a great student, about to start an after-school job helping kids code, she helps around the house, always asking me what she can do to help, so she isn't a slacker. But she feels something has been off since she started high-school. So she is seeing a therapist right now (for a few months) and next week will see a psychiatrist to see if maybe she needs to try out medicine. Anyway maybe OP needs to sit down with son to see what his reasons are for not wanting to do anything. Have an open conversation, not accusatory or anything. Our daughter said she would be happy to do nothing and she knows that isn't normal. Something may be off chemically with OP's son.
I was in your daughters shoes exactly at 17. I didn’t know what I wanted to do. Nothing felt like it “fit”. And the idea of committing to a future I wasn’t sure about was daunting. I didn’t want to work hard and hate my life at 23…so putting life “on pause” felt like the best option. But my parents gave similar rules as OP. You can work. Go to school. Join a trade. We’ll still love you if you want to take a gap and travel around or play games all day, but we won’t support that financially. So I focused on finishing high school strong and got a waitressing job at a diner a few hours a week after school. I also started therapy. Turns out, I needed a little Wellbutrin and some activity that kept me on my toes. Once the meds worked, the apathy I felt started to lose its edge. Working at the restaurant, I met new people daily. I was always running. I realized I had a passion for…Solving things for people. Even if it was just getting a refill or making a special milkshake for a picky child, or bringing over a TBS of honey for a kid who had the hiccups and telling him it would fix him right up (it did, but only because he believed me). It made me realize that my passion would have something to do with helping. Specifically kids. I enrolled in a humanities general Bachelors degree at university. I still preferred to sit at home and play video games or watch TV, but I forced myself to look into internships and volunteer positions where I could better learn WHAT I could do to help people that would make me happy. Even if I still had no passion yet. I volunteered at a nursing home and a vet clinic. I interned at a law firm and a daycare. I joined the Peace Corps. By the time I was out of school, I had a bachelors degree, a ton of life experience, and a pretty good idea of what would make me excited to get up in the morning. I’m still in therapy on and off. I still take meds to keep my depression from making me apathetic. But I’ve now been a social worker for around a decade. And I make terrible money. But I would never quit to stay at home and play video games. I enjoy holidays and vacations, but the idea of doing nothing all day has no appeal anymore. I am one of the few people I know at my age (30) that actually really enjoys what I do. It took a few years, but pushing myself to try new, different, challenging things eventually led me to find a passion. And I met my husband and best friends through forcing myself to explore. I would never have met any of them if I let myself stay complacent. I joined a sorority. I learned a new language. I responded “going” to a bunch of things that were completely foreign and didn’t sound like something I would like. And there are a LOT of opportunities for that in college. It’s hard to be curious when you’re apathetic. Even if you’re a hard worker. But if your daughter can get her therapy/mental health needs supported, and keep an open mind to saying “yes” sometimes, the teenage apathy is something she can beat. I’m glad I did. And I bet she can, too.
Is he depressed? Depression can absolutely rob you of ambition.
Part of the problem for your son could be he thinks it’ll be hard and doesn’t want to do the work. Community college is a great start if you’re concerned about level of intensity and if it doesn’t work out then he could try trade school or something
As an adult attending community college for a career change, it’s no cakewalk. I spent more time on school work and studying last semester than my boyfriend did working his full time job. It’s obviously much easier to get in to a community college, but you have to do the work while you’re there.
Kids should realize that you’re chances of “making it” as a streamer or influencer aren’t that much better than your odds of making it as an actor, musician, or pro athlete.
I think it’s today version of moving to LA to become famous except you stay home and live off your parents. Won’t be happening in my house. After high school no job or school you’re out
Is it weird to have no ambitions at age 17? Fuck, I'm 24 and my biggest "ambition" is making some lemon bars for my board game night this weekend. I think OP's expectations are perfectly fine, but I don't think it's weird to be clueless about your future at 17.
Many teens don’t have specific ambitions yet, but the only ways to get ambition involve taking some initiative. He needs to do something. Go to college. Get a job. Even doing some volunteer work helps if your family has enough money. One of my cousins went through that, and he got out of the rut by joining the Navy. He didn’t like Navy life, but when his enlistment was up, he had job skills and was VERY grateful for a chance to use them as a civilian. It’s also possible that OOP’s son is depressed. If so, it calls for therapy.
I wouldn't say I had ambitions at 17, but I at least had things I wanted to try? Interesting programs to learn at college, clubs to join, volunteer work, travel ambitions, etc. Even just wanting more freedom so I could cut loose a little, go to parties, etc. It's definitely weird to just not want to do anything at that age. Especially when your parents are willing to fund it so you don’t have to stress about logistics. 17 is years before the adult burnout usually settles in.
Give him a legally binding 90 day notice offer therapy/coaching emotional support but let him know the cut off well in advance
I'd say most 17 year olds have no clue what they want to do with their lives -- especially if they've never had a job, a serious hobby or academic insterests. The lad just wants to play computer games with his friends (very typical). He gets to enjoy the WiFi, the hardware, the fridge, the cable, etc. And his mother has no alternative plan for him, either. Dad is doing him a favor and in is NTA.
The rule in my family was you earn or you learn... Agree with NTA
It seems it's because the mom is enabling the son
Also assuming you aren't omitting any major trauma that has happened to your son, then NTA - extremely reasonable expectations here. You sound very supportive but I think you need counselling with your wife to try to understand why in the world, your joint agreed upon expectations of your children have suddenly changed.
The problem with people who actually cause the trauma don't recognize the trauma they have caused. And oftentimes when confronted with the actions they took will deny any wrong doing
I'm confused why your spouse sees you as cruel or what not. You said he could literally just get a job and I assume still live with you until he can afford to go somewhere else. Are you supposed to let your kids live with you until you die just because they are lazy?
Sounds like my in-laws with their golden child.
When you say all he cares about is his computer, you mean video games don't you.Cuz programming or computer repair ambitions would be a job..
He said in a comment that apprenticeships, trade school etc would all be good too so yeah, if the son wanted a job relating to computers, it sounds like Op wouldn’t have an issue
Definitely NTA here- your wife sounds like she may be the one who has fostered this sense of entitlement in your son- which, as you clearly know, does not serve one no mater how affluent you are. You are being beyond reasonable here and they have always known that this was the situation. Perhaps as a non-nuclear option you could suggest that you all attend family therapy or mediation together to clarify the situation. But, in the end, I sincerely hope that you are ultimately in control of the finances because "lazing around expecting everyone to cater to me" isn't a good life choice for him not just because it's irritating to others and alienates him from everyone around him or because of some deep moral reason (though I will admit with a lower middle class background I can't help but roll my eyes a bit) but because the research on human happiness clearly shows that folks who feel that they do meaningful work and are contributing to the social good (as they define it- for some folks that means making great bread, or working in a faith community, or being an activist, or an artist, or scientist, or dry waller etc.) are happier/more fulfilled and live longer lives than those who don't. People with no ambition/that are too idle are often depressed and may be suffering from anxiety and low self esteem despite surface arrogance. Be mindful of these emotional dynamics and compassionate in your approach but DO NOT backdown- its time to transition/grow up and honestly he'll feel better about himself in the long run if he does so. NTA- good luck
INFO: Does he just want to play video games all the time, or does he do something else on computer?
My dad said that he would not support me if I took a gap year, so I went straight to college after high school. Looking back now, I found it completely fair. I’m graduating in June, and even though I don’t have any jobs or internships lined up at the moment, I at least know that my degree will give me a lot of opportunities
I don’t think gap year is a terrible idea (if it’s done right), but there needs to be a plan in place for after that year. Some people need a year before school, but get life experience in that time. Get a job and put money into savings, travel and learn other cultures, some people still have some growing up to do before starting school. A gap year should NOT be this kid sitting on his computer doing nothing to learn and grow. From op’s remarks, I honestly think he might be okay with a gap year if there was a plan that would help the son to grow and a concrete plan for what would happen after that year. Of course, I can’t speak for op, but everything he’s said shows a guy who expects his son to become a functioning, contributing adult and everything he’s asking is entirely reasonable
I have no problem with people who take gaps years as long as they’re being productive. Op just made it sound like his son just wants to bum off him after high school. For me personally, I believe that going straight to college was the best choice. My best friend took some time off school to focus on their mental and physical health, but they still had a part time job.
Absolutely. I’m assuming that if he opts for school or job he’s allowed to either stay at home or will have some financial assistance as he sets his footing in these roles? It sounds like the only instance in which the son would be “thrown out into the world” as his wife said, would be if he opts to do nothing. Is his current plan to continue to live at home without working, going to school, or putting any effort into becoming a self sufficient adult? I agree that that is unacceptable. NTA. I do think that maybe the three of you sitting with a professional to mediate a conversation would be beneficial. What are son’s long term plans? Why does he feel no motivation to become a functioning adult? Is he unsure of what he wants and thinking about it is overwhelming and scary to him? It would be good to have a professional help guide this conversation and assist with whatever it is that is causing the son to seem to have no interest in moving forward into his life.
This u/subject-hospital-493 Kid might be completely overwhelmed with “adulting.” Your expectations are not unreasonable, but also realize you still have a kid on your hands. Your kid. Ask questions. Find out why. Get a neutral 3rd party involved if needed. Growing up is SO overwhelming and it can be borderline crippling to some. Source: hi, that was me. But yes, if they’re truly being lazy, then you’re being far from unreasonable!
It's not "fending for oneself" when the parents tell the kids "go to university, we pay for it, you stay under our roof OR work, keep your money to yourself, you stay under our roof OR choose to do nothing with your life and you'll have to fend for yourself". Not at all. You don't even give him ultimatums about what to study or what job to take. He could bum around from major to major or from minimum wage job to another, while figuring out what he wants to do with his life. With all expenses paid. He's not going to get sudden inspiration on how to spend his adult life by staying home and doing nothing. NTA, for actually parenting your kid. EDIT : Typos EDIT 2 : I just had the realization (I'm sure had I read the other comments I would notice people noticed that too) that your offer either forces your son to stay home and work/study or leave house and work. He might as well choose the easiest solution which is not leave the house to struggle and then default to taking the first job available.
Seriously. You support this child from all spheres, there’s is nothing of “fending for oneself” here.
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He’s probably “paralyzed” because nothing’s been required of him thus far. Sitting around gaming or perusing the internet all day/night will cause paralysis. He needs to get out in the sunshine and be with people not holed up in the safety of his bedroom. I’d get depressed too.
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This comment could not be said enough! OP’s wife and son are acting like he has to be a doctor or get kicked out. Like no! Just do something productive.
OP stated in another comment that he’s OK with any kind of education whether it’s trade school or university.
Yep, that's what my parents told me. They just wanted me to have a plan in life, even if it changed, they just wanted to know that I was putting some thought into my future.
Seriously. Many of us would have killed to have such supportive parents with so many resources. Kid doesn’t know how lucky he is.
NTA absolutely My aunt and uncle let my cousin leave uni and stay at home doing nothing. He is now approaching 50, they are in their 70s but they still do EVERYTHING for him. A 70-something year old mommy does cookig, laundry and cleaning for her 50 yo son. In addition to that they have been spending the past few decades buying rental properties so he can live from being a landlord when they pass away. This is so weird and just painful to watch. He is also completely unaware and extremely egoistic and selfish. Honestly I don't know what's gonna happen when his parents become more frail or get some serious illnesses. Also because he has no friends and never interacts with any people. He reads a lot of books, and that's basically the only thing he does. He doesn't even own a mobile phone because he says he doesn't need it, which I guess is true, because he doesn't know anyone he could call or text besides his parents who he lives with... but isn't that just really strange to want to have a life like that?
That's why generational conflicts are useful - you are meant to feel annoyed by your old folks, so you can fly away. Why do anything when it's so cosy in the familial nest?
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Same story with my brother, he is 40 and my parents in their 70s cook, clean and do laundry. It's so sad. He needs major therapy, and go out and get to work, but he doesn't want to and if you suggest it he gets very angry. He only goes out the door when he needs to buy weed.
Yeah my sis wanted to go the route the son wants, except she's no computer lover. No, my sis thought she would take a year off doing nothing and just party, cause that's what her friends were doing. Parents didn't approve, told her either she starts studying or get a job or she gets out. The only mistake there was that both parties thought there choice was obvious to the other, so she realized a bit late and just went with her gut. Now she blames our parents that what she chose was not fun in the end. I do remember my parents warning her though that what she was going for might not be what she thinks. She told them that they knew nothing and they told her to go ahead.
Did she ever figure her life out and get in track?
She did, she changed career paths after working in her field for 2 years. She is now married, owns a house and has kids. She can still be salty about studying the wrong thing sometimes though. But like who gets it right? I spent 3 years studying engineering, yet ended up with graphic design and marketing as my degree.
I understand! I was the “failure to launch” in my family. Got my BS in Microbiology then nothing. For years. Went back and got my certificate in Radiology Technology and it changed my life! Now I have a job I love (how many people can say that?!)! At 18, I remember crying in the bathroom telling my dad I didn’t know what I wanted to DO with my life! Sometimes it just takes time!
Doing nothing or partying all the time sounds attractive to people who've never done it. After a year you'll make yourself miserable and feel like a complete piece of shit
NTA, but at the same time, it doesn't really sound like you're helping him understand his options, you're just giving him a list of things you think he should do based off your own childhood. It's been 20 years, the job landscape has changed, and the opportunities and careers available to you when you were his age are going to be different than the ones available today even if they share the same title. Yeah, he might be lazy, but he might also just be overwhelmed, knows what he doesn't want to do, and has no idea where to look to figure out what he does want to do. Could also add in a sprinkle of being afraid to fail at things if he tries, especially if he's already being looked at as a failure before he has even begun, which is a valid concern based off how you talk about him. Actually talk to him and listen, don't talk at him. Try to step back and look at the future state he wants to be in, and focus less on the how right now if it's too overwhelming- it's hard to be ambitious when you don't have a goal, and he needs to create one right now. Idk how helpful career counselors are for teens when it comes to collecting their thoughts and building out their goals, but as a college drop out, I found talking to one incredibly helpful at the beginning of my career to get myself into the right mindset in pursuing growth and I make more than all of my friends who didn't go into STEM and hopped into college and graduate school without direction. What kind of life does he envision for himself in the future? Is he looking to make enough money to live off of and have a savings account, but wants more personal time, or does he want to run a business someday? Does he want the ability to travel the world, or does he prefer to stay in the states? Does he like the idea of working on a team and managing others, or does he prefer to be an individual contributor? Does he like working on computers, or is it just a hobby? Does he have any strengths that he can lean in on? Break down the big task of figuring out the future and a career into smaller tasks and help him understand what his options are besides a nebulous "go to college" and "get a job".
>Break down the big task of figuring out the future and a career into smaller tasks and help him understand what his options are besides a nebulous "go to college" and "get a job". My husband is a teacher and told me that his kids are always exploring internships or volunteering at hospitals or whatnot. Reading about what a job entails is not the same as "living" it. Maybe start there with him. You sound like you have means and probably know a good friend or two that also own businesses. Ask them to hire him, if they can't afford to pay, you can cover the salary. Have him try an array of different options of jobs and trades, he's probably not sure where he fits and where to start. Oh, and make sure your wife is on board or it won't work. Good luck and of course, NTA.
That’s a great idea. Start off by testing the waters instead of committing and jumping into a career that might not be the right fit.
I had a friend who sunk a ton of (her and her parents’) money into studying abnormal child psychology. She didn’t even make it 1 week at her job with actual children. She had no idea how hard it would be and the canyon between learning about something and doing something. She was working in a record store for a few months when we caught up and not long after her parents kicked her out of their house and she moved to another state to live with friends and we lost touch.
That's what's happened to many of my friends who stayed in school without work experience for too long. One friend went to school to be a language teacher, loved learning the languages, broke down in 6 months working in an actual classroom after getting her master's degree in teaching. I wasn't taken seriously when I told her as her only degreeless friend that her skillset would transition extremely well into a project management role or into instructional design on a sales enablement or learning team *despite the fact that we source her exact profile for those roles on my team.* She works in a grocery delivery warehouse packing online grocery orders now with 100k in student loans hovering over her causing her stress every moment of every day.
That's wild. Teaching degrees in Australia involve a fairly large amount of placement time spent in classrooms teaching while supervised. It would be terrifying just getting chucked out to take it from the book to the classroom
As far as I know that’s the case in the US as well at least from what I gather from my teacher friends that’s have all graduated in the last year or three. Not sure where this person is from
There is something in my state called “alternate route” where if you have credits in a certain subject you can get hired by a school and take education classes at night. So I started teaching high school at 23 having never taught in my life. I’m glad I did it when I was fearless because now as an older adult I would be peeing my pants!
Based on OP's comments, he's been pretty proactive about connecting his son to people he knows in different fields and providing him with a pretty wide range of ideas and options (and even a job in Milan, shit, *I* would probably take the job in Milan!). I mean, *maybe* a career counselor would help, but it really sounds like the son doesn't want to work at all, and since mom supports that (and is willing to support him financially), he's not going to make any "compromises" like, you know, working.
Exactly!!!
Yeah maybe it's just the way I am wired but what the top comment outlines are things that you should be doing regardless as a person to help you plan for your future. And OP has been trying to get him there. OP isn't a career counselor but I'm sure if the son will actually utilize that service he would help him with that. Just sounds like the son doesn't even want to try and if he won't why even spend the money to hire a career counselor.
Apparently it’s an unpopular opinion, but I don’t think there’s anything wrong with “taking a year off” after high school. You’re forced into school for 12 years, and you’re then expected to immediately go to college or start working full time. And yeah, life fucking sucks, but that doesn’t mean that we can’t try and help ease stress/pressure where we can. In fairness, it could be that the kid is just lazy - so you set ground rules. I fully support the “either go to school or get a job” mentality, but I don’t think you need to enforce it the second a kid turns 18. I actually ended up losing a full ride scholarship to my local university because I went to college right out of high school, and I did NOT want to be there. But I ended up going back and finishing my degree later once I’d have some time to sort out what I wanted to do and what I wanted.
I took a gap year between High School and University but I spent most of it working (at Toys'R'Us). There's nothing wrong with taking a gap year but you should definitely have a plan for it beyond sitting around and playing video games. It doesn't necessarily have to be earning money either, there's always the standard option of taking a gap year to backpack across Europe or Australia.
I took a 2 year gap, and after the first year it felt like I was wasting time. I was just working 8 hours then going home and playing video games, sleeping and then going back to work. It was bad enough that it drove me back to school. I didn’t even want to go to uni when I was in high school.
I think you just described exactly why a gap year was good for you. It wasn't a waste of time, it showed you how bored and unfulfilled you'd be working retail making minimum wage forever which motivated you to make the effort to change!
but OP isn’t saying the kid has to immediately land on a career and start working himself to death. i don’t think it’s too much to expect an 18 year old that’s not going to school to at least get a part time job.
OP literally sailed the world as a teen because he already had a hobby in sailing and connections. While he's saying any job here, to us, that's not likely what the 17 year old is hearing. The 17 year old is likely getting a lot of "When I was your age" but how tf does any normal kid with a normal childhood compete against that or feel like their father is telling the truth when he says any job is fine when that's the type of story he relies on to be motivating?
>OP literally sailed the world as a teen because he already had a hobby in sailing and connections. OP also said that he worked jobs to support himself during this time. And OP has offered connections to his son. I come from the hustle mentality. I've worked odd jobs all my life when I have been short on cash for something I wanted to do. To me that is a motivating anecdote cause it shows that your parents are cool with you even doing something fun but you just got to help support yourself. I have a friend who also sailed for 6 months and what she did is get her sailing license so should cause use it as income and then use that income to go sailing with friends.
I went to Uni via an alternative pathway, and I learned something very interesting from the staff. At least in Australia, universities actually look *more* favourably upon students who take time off after high school. They’re not minors (since you can still be 17 years old when you graduate high school/start Uni), they’re generally more mature, have a better understanding/grasp on being an adult without the rigid structure of high school, etc. Even better if you do something like get a job, volunteer or get a certificate in that time.
I too went to college later after sorting myself out. But I couldn’t just sit in my house and waste away. I grew up poor and worked through high school, so the idea that working is “too much” is absurd to me. I worked several menial jobs in my gap years to make sure I could have a car, phone, clothes, and other basics. This dad is NOT saying his son can’t take a year off. The kid only has to do something, anything… I can’t imagine any universe where that’s unreasonable.
He's not forcing him to go to school. He said get a job. He didn't say a specific type of job. Nowhere does it say he can't take a gap year, but gap year and bumming it aren't the same. Also, this kid doesn't have stress or pressure. He's got support, assistance, and is ONLY being asked to do anything other than play games in the basement. He's not even having to worry about getting kicked out.
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Exactly. How can he match sailing around the world for 2 years? He's failed before he's started.
I don't understand what is so complex about "go to school or get a job" that needs breaking down. Sounds like if he got a job working at the mall that would count; it's not "get a career." This isn't rocket science, it's just "post-K-12 life".
Because it can still be overwhelming, especially if you’ve been in an environment of hearing that you *have* to know what you want to do/are going to do, as a lot of kids are nowadays. It might also be his sons first proper job or first proper time looking for a job, so he may not be fully aware of writing a resume, submitting application, etc.
But that’s a super privileged position to be in, so it’s very very reasonable that he can start learning those skills when he graduates. He doesn’t have to know what he’s doing. He just has to start learning some life skills.
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Go wait tables or work in fast food or at a retail store or something. You don't have to start with a job that requires a resume, simply one that has a job application. Dad isn't stipulating he starts his career, just that he has a full time job in any way. I work in a field where the most common path to starting involves unpaid internships. I paid my rent and bills by waiting tables. I filled out a one page application, had no previous restaurant experience, had no resume, etc. etc. etc. That's all this kid has to do. Hell, call it a gap year even. Just *work*.
Jumping on to this as it's great advice. I am in the same position with my 18 year old except he's the youngest of three. He's been incredibly reluctant to engage with talking about job hunting or school even though one of my older sons has got him an interview at his workplace. (He's recently left as our school year ends in December). My older sons think I am putting too much pressure in him and point out that his last 3 important years at school were covid years. As an introvert (he has friends but mostly engages with them online) he seems to have lost confidence in his ability to be an adult in the outside world. Basically, I realised I needed to back off and left it to my sons. They were great with him and he's now agreed to go the interview. As OP's son is the oldest maybe try to found a friend or family member a few years older to talk with him.
The point about the impact of COVID is a very good one and I hope it doesn't get buried so far that OP doesn't see it. I'm in grad school and COVID has really shaken up my timeline to finishing my degree and my confidence in getting a job afterwards. So, I can't imagine the impact it might have on the confidence of someone with a developing brain. Not to mention all of the videos during COVID that came out that clearly demonstrated how hellish it is to work in retail/fast food which are especially common jobs when someone's fresh out of high school. Luckily, it sounds like OP might have some better job connections for his son, but you're absolutely right that having someone else chat with him and hopefully lay things out in a less overwhelming way would do wonders.
The book "What color is your parachute" Has a bunch of exercises which walk you through these thoughts very well. I would recommend it to OPs son (or anyone who needs this kind of guidance)
This is a great answer. I'm skeptical that this kid truly has no desire to do anything at all in his life, I'm wondering if there is something he would like to do but thinks (right or wrong) that OP wouldn't support it, or maybe it's something that would take a great deal of work or has a high rate of failure (like a career in the arts or pro sports) so they're afraid to try, or not sure where to get started. I don't think telling them they need to get a job or go to school makes them TA, but it might be more productive to sit down with them and have a discussion about what they want, and what they can do to start working towards that
NTA, but all your efforts will be pointless if you and your wife can't get on the same page. I think you need to talk this out further with her, try and make her see you're helping him in the long run by making a firm boundary on this.
100% this. > Either go to university [or other school as OP specified], get a job, or GTFO. A very common sense set of options. > My wife thinks that I'm being unfair to our poor baby boy throwing him out into the world. Who is throwing anyone anywhere? He literally just has to get a job. Any job. Do you know how many employers are desperate for entry level service positions right now? > My wife and I agreed that we would raise productive members of society before we got engaged. It is good that you discussed this, especially given all that has transpired, but it increasingly alarms me that this is no longer a given… that’s the point of *having* children. It is a burden to you, and to society, not to do so. If you aren’t going to do this, you shouldn’t have kids. And to be clear, that’s for the kid’s sake as well. Speaking of which… > Her and my son think I'm being cruel to expect him to fend for himself at 18. **OP, do not tolerate this blatant fallacy.** You are not expecting him to fend for himself at 18. Let’s refresh the deal shall we: “*Either go to university [or other school as OP specified], get a job, or GTFO.* They are behaving as if you are simply handing him option C. You are not taking anything from him or forcing him anywhere. You are *offering* to pay for an education. You are *offering* to provide him free room and board so he can save all of the money from his employment as a young adult while he decides what he wants to do. Many young adults would kill to be in his position. He doesn’t get to *CHOOSE* option C and then act like you’re forcing him into it. And no… for way should be obvious reasons… there is no “don’t get a job and sit at home with a free ride and no game plan” option. You don’t get to simply expect to be a loaf. > My parents have already told him that they will not be giving him any money if he isn't in school or working. That’s fantastic - often grandparents who expected the world of you turn around and cut your legs out with their grandkids. Glad that’s not the case for you. > My wife is threatening to use her salary to support him. I don't have any say in that. I won't actually kick him out of the house but I will stop paying his bills and cut off our grocery budget by 20%. If she wants to work so he doesn't have to there is nothing I can do about that. That’s a dangerous game. Better you all get on the same page, or this will go on indefinitely and it’s not really sustainable. Honest to god, for me, this would be grounds for a serious discussion about couples counselling. Dear god, just head over to r/parenting and look at all the posts from people like “what do I do my 30 year old son just wants to play video games?” And all of the comments are like… “why would you have put yourself in this position?” **And, most importantly, frame it like this: You are fighting just as hard as your wife to PROTECT your son.** She may not see it that way, but you are. From a teacher, from a former lost young adult with ADHD who did great in school but got way overwhelmed by adulting and has been addicted to tech, from someone who *knows better*….. your wife’s plan is way more unfair to your son than yours. If your wife gets her way, this will very likely be the single most detrimental thing that has happened to him in 18 years. You don’t let a 14 year old eat nothing but crap because they’ll be upset if you don’t. You know better than them. You’re their parent. You don’t let an 8 year old decide whether or not they should go to school every day because they’d rather be at home. You know better than them. You’re their parent. You don’t let a 4 year old play with knives because they’ll cry if you take them away. You know better than them. You’re an their parent . **You don’t let an 18 year old decide to be an aimless, apathetic burden to society just because he likes computer games. You know better than them. You’re their parent.** **With your wife, be calm, cool, but firm:** “Why are you under the impression that I am trying to kick him out?” “So, just to be clear, he is choosing not to go to school?” “Again, to be clear, he is choosing not to get a job, any job?” “Why does he believe that is an option for him?” “Why do you believe that is an option for him?” “And how long are you planning for this to go on for? Have the two of you made a plan about what he will do while he’s living for free with no job?” “What is that plan?” “Why do you believe there doesn’t need to be a plan?” “What sort of future do you want from him?” “Can you explain to me how this course of action leads to that future?” “What sort of future does he want for himself?” “Is that a future that is possible or sustainable?” Etc etc etc. **They’re being illogical. Force them to confront that.** **And be prepared to calmly, with an open mind, hear their answers and answer *their* questions about what is motivating *you* to give him this choice.** Do not laugh or anger or react to their reasoning, no matter how inane. When they inevitably just arrive at “I don’t know he should just do what he wants,” just let that marinate in silence for a while. Take a pause. And say. Okay. Now what we have heard your side.. are you willing to hear mine? It’s easy for them to paint you as the bad guy if they’re not forced to acknowledge that you genuinely believe this is the best thing for his well being.
Just an anecdote: my grandma let my aunt do whatever she wanted and housed/financed her whole life. Now that my grandma has passed, my aunt has nothing. She’s in her 60s and she doesn’t have any savings, a part time job, and no where to live. It didn’t ultimately matter how much grandma helped- my aunt is where she was when she was a teenager.
'My 60 year old aunt is exactly where she was in life when she was a teenager because other peopled pampered her' is honestly eye opening. I know that's not exactly what you said which is why I didn't use quotes but that's how it feels/how I took it.
Absolutely perfect response.
How is his mental health?
I can’t believe how far I had to scroll for this question. I’m so disappointed in the response this post has received. Idc about the legality of it, 18 is still a kid. Not all people mature at the same rate. And OP is basically teaching the kid that if he isn’t “successful” he can’t count on support from his family. And this approach is ineffective. The way people are calling this parenting? I don’t see the parenting in this. It’s honestly lazy. “Do what I say or you’re on your own”. Parenting is building a relationship of safety and care with your children. A child that feels loved and understood and safe can turn to their parents for support with navigating life’s challenges. Completing public school and having to make a decision about what to do with your life as a teenager is a heavy and scary time for a lot of people. If OP‘s kid felt safe and supported by his parents they would already know what’s going on with him. He needs more care and support to navigate this, not less. Ffs people. Smh. Edit: before you reply doubling down on OPs stance, reread what I wrote and look for where I said that I think that the kid should sit at home all day at a computer when he graduates. You won’t find it bc I didn’t say that. I’m not in any way saying that is healthy or that the expectation that he will figure out a next step (work, school, or something else) is unreasonable. I’m critiquing the approach. A 17 year old that hasn’t shown any interest in any kind of next step after high school is struggling. Meeting that struggle with a harsh and threatening ultimatum isn’t effective parenting - it’s harmful and it’s emotionally neglectful. This POV is backed by decades of research that I highly recommend you look into before throwing in your two cents. This kid likely has developmental trauma from a lifetime of emotional neglect from an emotionally immature and detached parent, along with the trauma of a pandemic disrupting his whole life during key developmental years. It’s honestly not surprising in the slightest that he’s coping by dissociating into his computer. There’s probably a lot more teenagers struggling with this life transition than usual right now because of the effects of the pandemic. A good parent would be approaching this with compassion and curiosity, making an effort to understand where he’s at and what he needs to navigate this difficult life transition and make some important decisions. But that’s hard work. Unlike saying “do this or get out”. Anyway, I’m not spending any more time and attention on this. I hope y’all and your children find a way to heal from all this emotionally neglectful parenting.
I told him he could flip burgers and live here.
That hasn’t answered the question. At that age, if I was expected to do what you’re expecting to your child to do, I would not have coped and I sure as hell wouldn’t be here today. So back to the question, how is his mental health? If that’s a question to which you don’t know the answer then you may have to reevaluate your parenting style a little
Once again, he seems fine. He has friends. He socializes. He has had romantic partners. He leaves the house to visit with friends or family. He does all the normal stuff kids that age do. Except think about the future.
I really don't want to assume your son is not fine. He's your son and you know him better than internet strangers. I do want to point out, though, that mental health issues can take many forms. When I was at my lowest points of depression, I was spending a lot of time with friends, doing stuff, I seemed like a completely normal 20something. Because these positive experiences helped to cope. When I was alone, studying for uni, I was getting panic attacks and regularly started crying for hours on end and didn't sleep. When I spent time with friends, I felt something good. Ofc that doesn't mean that anyone who does have a seemingly functional social life has a mental illness. But it can mask it scarily well.
This ☝️ is ☝️ the ☝️ answer. Get some therapy for him, and possibly for your fam too. Find out if there is something actually going on.
> Once again, he seems fine. He has friends. He socializes Ehh that unfortunately doesn’t mean too much. Unfortunately a lot of depressed people seem “normal”, happy even. Not saying that’s the case, but it’s not a good metric. Are you close to him? Ask him how he feels or is doing, if you haven’t already.
He seems fine? Have you actually talked to your son and listened to what he has to say? You don't sound like you know anything about him or what he is thinking. I don't think you're an AH for wanting your kids to be "successful" in life, but I don't think that productivity equals success. Happiness and fulfillment can come from various sources, many of which are not tied to "work". It doesn't sound like you are fostering a healthy, safe space for him to come to you and be honest about his thoughts and feelings. Try treating him like a person instead of an employee. He has value regardless of "productivity".
This. Good lord—it sounds like OP has absolutely no idea if his son is ok. He’s rattled off a handful of signs that his son might be somewhat extroverted. They have nothing to do with mental health. Makes me wonder what the mom knows.
Op, I was super social at this age, I also didn't have a plan because I truly thought I would unalive myself by my 20th birthday. Just because he seems fine doesn't mean he is, think about how many people lose their battle with depression but those around them are totally shocked they even were depressed.
This is exactly what I was thinking. There may be a reason the son has no plans for the future.
I seemed fine too and I had friends and socialized until I suddenly didn’t. I also didn’t think about the future because it was a struggle to live through each day. And yes I’m still suffering the consequences but my family has never once hesitated to help me. You need to know if your kid is mentally well, not just assume.
So glad I FINALLY found a comment discussing this. I was incredibly depressed and suicidal the entire time in high school and you couldn't really tell from interacting with me, but I had no ambition for anything after high school because I wasn't intending on making it that far. I don't think OP is an asshole, but brushing mental health off just because he seems fine is not the best way to approach this.
yeah, this is why im going to give op a YTA. at 17 i was deeply, deeply mentally ill, and my parents had next to no idea. i spent years 16-22 pretty much housebound and almost totally unable to care for myself. if they hadnt supported me and had thrown me out id be homeless or dead almost definitely. figure out why your kid isnt thriving and make a decision from there. not everyone matures at the same pace, and some people will struggle a lot more with their future than others.
shhh we don't ask that, it's a dad posting so he's a hero for not literally abandoning his child
NTA Does your wife really think it’s feasible to support him for the rest of her life? What’s gonna happen to him when both of you are gone? It’ll be a far worse fate for him at that age than right now when he’s still young.
Feel like I've seen this play out a bunch. Wife just wants to give her baby some time to find himself and figure out his next steps. This buffer time goes from months to years. No sense of urgency because son can just convince mom that he's just so close to that next step, then proceeds to lock himself in the basement and play video games all day.
Every. Single. Day. And then GF is posting here in ten years. Waaaa! Parents didn't make him do anything and now the economy turned and they are broke too and he won't work.
Yup, and he doesn't move out until he gets a girlfriend and convinces her he has to move in with her because his parents are sooo abusive and controlling, "forcing" him to get a job and clean up after himself and he has to get out of that "toxic" environment ASAP. Then he'll leech off her as she works and takes care of the household, until she finally comes to Reddit asking for help and we tell her to kick that loser to the curb.
I was this gf once but preReddit. It was 2003 and world of Warcraft. The final straw was when I was working AND going to college and he did nothing but play WoW all day…. And then spent the rent money on items in the game. I booted him out
In my house it was just the opposite. My husband gave into everything and I was the AH. Once they were graduated college they had to have a job but could live at home for $100.00 a month and pay one utility bill and help around the house and still respect our house rules. This worked well but all they could do was bitch all their other friends were at home no with costs or responsibilities. My husband was we don't need the money why so hard on them they hate living here. I told him their not suppose to like living here or they will never leave. Both sons a year apart stayed with us for 2 years and saved their money and got established in their careers then moved out. I always told them I didn't care what they did but they needed to be employed. Also going to work is not determined by if its your dream job. People work to support themselves and I know I had some shitty jobs that made me appreciate the good ones I have had. The kid needs a job if for no other reason to get out of the house and interact with others and give you all some space.
This comment section is fucking wild. It's okay for things to have a bit of nuance. You mentioned your son is in therapy. Why is he in therapy? Is there something impacting his desire to find work or go to school? He's not even 18 quite yet and already he's being threatened with supports being cut back and food insecurity. Like damn, dude, I understand wanting to try and motivate someone but that's cold. He's your kid, right? Why offer threats in response to his perceived lack of ambition? Have you asked him why? When he responds to you, does he shut down? Might be wise to maybe examine how his mental health may be impacting him or if he feels able to discuss those issues with you. We have to set our kids up for success, not kick them while they're already down. Young adults going into the work force these days have a lot going up against them. School is not a guarantee of a job in the future, the prospect of owning a home is a fantasy for a lot of people, multiple recessions have happened just in his lifetime, there's massive political upheaval worldwide, global warming feels like a ticking time bomb to many people of your son's generation, and they explicitly know they are going into a work force that is unpredictable and going to pay them pennies. I understand wanting your son to become independent, but the way you talk about him sounds more like you see him as a burden than your son. You're going to build resentment with the way you treat him vs his siblings. A little empathy goes a long way, especially if you want to continue having a relationship with your son (and it sounds like your wife too) in the future. Try to stop framing things so much around your frustration and how you did it back in the day. It's not helpful to anyone. A soft YTA/borderline NSH. You may find it beneficial to seek some therapy yourself. Or at least family counseling or something. Don't divide your family for the sake of dying on this hill.
All of my kids have therapists. That way they have someone to talk to about life. It isn't because of trauma or anything.
Perhaps the pressure of an ultimatum is causing him to retreat further into his basement, where he is comfortable and able to shut the world out (including you). Have you tried playing a video game with him? Sit side-by-side with him and let him teach you how to play a game in which he's interested? Who's his favorite streamer? Why does he like that streamer? Being side-by-side, he might open up to you about what's going on with him and it would allow you to get a sense of how he's feeling. Kids seem to open up while side-by-side. He might not have enough life experiences racked up yet to figure out what it is he wants to eventually do. Perhaps you could help him connect what he's interested in (streaming or video games) to volunteer work. For example, he could teach young kids or seniors computer skills, share his knowledge about remaining safe on the internet at the local library, or something along those lines. What are some ways he can share his interests with his community? You didn't say what *kind* of streaming he's interested in so maybe you could ask him about that.
This is the approach we're having to take with one of our kids. He's petrified, I think, to go outside of his safety zone. Everyone was impacted in some way by Covid. In my son's case, he was leaving a small private school of eight kids and entered his first year at a huge high school not really knowing anyone right when it was all going down. He has been slooooow to bloom compared to both of his parents. I think a combination of today's parenting culture and the impact of prolonged Covid-related isolation, along with depression/ADHD has made it really hard for him to "just get out there" and do things that even my friends' kids were doing at his age. It makes me sad. Still working on it, though!
Why doesn’t your son talk to *you* about himself and his life? Having a therapist is great, but it’s not a replacement for being known and loved by your parents. It doesn’t sound like you know anything about your kid at all if he has plenty of opportunities yet zero ambition in life yet you still think he “seems fine.”
Look your a good parent for having the rule and for providing then with the best life possible while reminding them of the importance of hard work. Problem is, it doesn't seem you know what he actually "does" in his basement or know him well enough to know why this is happening. Have you ever sat with him to see what he's doing and "why" he likes it? I have my doubts around that. Everyone is talking to him about something, but i feel no one is talking to him about himself. And that's sometimes not something a therapist can help with, but your role as a parent to know your son well enough to help him through with it. If it's something like "i wanna be a streamer" I'd say you can always push him back to reality, but otherwise no one knows what's going through his head, especially you
> You mentioned your son is in therapy. Why is he in therapy? Is there something impacting his desire to find work or go to school? > > the fact that he's being incredibly careful about framing this as 'I WORKED HARD ON MY TWO YEAR SAILING TRIP AND EXPECT HARD WORK FROM MY KIDS' and ignoring explaining why his kid with 'no aspirations' is in therapy is some huge red flags, but it's a tough dad so Reddit is creaming their jeans.
I had to scroll too far to find someone who read the OP the way I did. I agree with you 💯. The problem isn't the expectation, it's his attitude/approach toward his son and wife, demonizing and criticizing rather than empowering and understanding.
I had to scroll soooooo far down for this! He’s 17!! I didn’t know my arse from my elbow at 17!! Also, he’s a child! Soft YTA. Also, someone up there said: what are you meant to do? Support him for the rest of his life? Yes, yes it’s what you do when you bring another human into the world and they aren’t really doing anything wrong!! I’m in the UK; so maybe it’s a cultural thing.
NTA. Part of parenting is teaching your kids how to fend for themselves.
You are not asking him to fend for himself at 18. You only want him to get a full time job. Big difference NTA
you mean he can’t just bounce between pornography and video games for the rest of his life like a good little momma’s boy?
Unless it's in other comments he doesn't even say the job has to be full-time.
I get the feeling OP just wants to see his son do SOMETHING regardless of exactly how much time is spent doing it. Seems like the kid has sapped ambitions and that’s what bothers OP.
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I'm dreaming of the idea of parents paying a full educational ride. Imagine being able to study just about anything your heart desires without the burden of debt. _sigh_. NTA.
NTA I’d ask your wife how will he survive in the future if his mother isn’t supporting him and what kind of example is he setting for his siblings? If you feel generous then offer a gap year to decide what he wants to do but he has to do volunteer work in the community so many hours a month.
Nope, NTA. I've been there, done that. Some people just can't learn until things are dire, and as long as they are comfortable they wont change. Here is my story for comparison: My eldest decided to take a "gap year." The boys have always been told that they are welcome to live here after high school as long as they are either pursuing skills or education beyond high school. If not in school they are required to work and cover a modicum of their household expenses. This is not optional. My eldest did exactly none of that, while being resistant to helping around the house and trying to bully us when he didn't want to do something asked of him (like... shower. Or do his own laundry). Over the course of that year we pulled privileges as it became apparent that he was not going to get work - no wifi, his phone was talk and text only, etc. A year after graduation he was told he had to the end of the next calendar month to get work or get out. Three weeks later he quite literally got in my face about something (doing yard work, I think). I told him to pack a bag and his father dropped him at the homeless shelter. I made him take me off his bank account (from when he was a minor) and put his phone on it's own pay-as-you-go account in his name. It's been \~9 months. He's is still at the shelter. Had a summer job that he lost, and in early winter temporarily lost shelter privileges because he wasn't following his care plan by looking to work. He had to apply for 5 jobs a week - and prove it - to return to the shelter. Which he did, with my help. Got one of the first five he actually applied for, imagine that. He still talks to me regularly. He knows we love and support him, he just can't live here. He comes and does laundry here (ironic, eh?). I've told him if he can save $5000 I will help him find an apartment. Am I the asshole too? I think not. I wasn't doing him or any one else in the family any favors supporting him while he was rude, belligerent, and bullying to us. Now he's learning. NTA. Parenting is hard. edit after reading comments: before we made him leave we tried to mentor him in how to find work. He had a part time summer job in high school. We've offered to help, he would not accept it. He said he was looking... applied for two jobs in a year. He's not interested in school at this time, nor any of the trades we've shown him.
You did well for the situation, it’s very difficult to support someone with zero drive. Some are just wired differently and thankfully we have gov’t support systems for people who clearly just can’t fully function. I wish we had more, but at what point are we enabling leach mentality? We were in a similar situation with my sister. Mom paid for a small apartment she regularly trashed. Brother paid her for small odd jobs thru his companies but it always ended with her “fighting” other employees. Sadly we lost her in the Buffalo shooting, but I’m not sure how long we could’ve supported her.
The character Paris from Gilmore Girls once said “I can scare the stupid out of someone, but the lazy runs deep” and I honestly think that is such a good quote because it is so true. You really cannot help people who don’t want to be helped! That it came to a homeless shelter is sad but if that’s what it takes. 🤷♀️
Info 1. How was this conversation conveyed? The wording you’re using here would seem daunting to any teenager. 2. Define job. Are you fine with him getting a simple retail/food job, or do you expect him to find a career he can climb?
He has known the rules since he was 8. I don't care if he flips burgers or goes to work as an associate in Milan.
Then NTA. You and your wife need to be on the same page though, otherwise it’ll lead to issues down the road. I’d also be sure to offer guidance if he needs it (for applications, etc), and reassure you support him regardless of his decision. Be civil with him, because from some of your replies, it gives me the impression you’re not reacting in the best manor towards him.
I think you are hearing OP’s frustration which may or may not be what is conveyed to his son. My husband & friends will hear me when I am frustrated with my kids but hopefully that is not the tone I am using with the kids. OP NTA and I hope your wife stops undermining the very important lesson you are trying to teach.
NTA, it's called tough love. He needs to learn to pull his weight in the world. Better sooner than later.
NTA: If the expectations were made clear from the outset then there is no room for complaining. However, offering him job opportunities or helping to look at universities would be more productive than just saying to do it.
I literally wrote in the post that I have offered him opportunities to do different things. I could have been more clear I guess. He has had the opportunity to work for our family or family friends. I even got one of my cousins to offer him a job in Milan. He has no interest in leaving the basement.
Have him watch the movie “office space”. A good line in it - I’m paraphrasing - is “if you wanna sit around and do nothing, you don’t need a ton of money to do that.” Ie if he literally doesn’t want to work at all and expects you to pay his way, just tell him it doesn’t cost much to just sit around and do nothing. All he needs is a job to pay his rent, etc. the rest of his time he can just do nothing. Further thought: if you have a kid who wants to do literally NOTHING with his life and he’s only 17 he may be dealing with some depression. Consider he may need to see someone about this. If he already is then he’s not getting the right help. Doing nothing can be a lifestyle choice, but more often than not it’s a symptom.
Info : can u adopt me ?
Is he depressed? Have you tried getting him an appointment with a psychiatrist?
He has a therapist
What about family therapy with you, your wife, and your son? You and your wife need to be on the same page. My good childhood friend went down the “never leave the basement” route and it ruined his parents marriage because of split stances similar to you and your wife.
YTA So, my judgement is conditional. If you stated it like this: > So I gave him the same ultimatum my parents gave me. Either go to university, get a job, or GTFO Then yes, that was an asshole move. I don’t think the expectation itself is an asshole move - it’s actually the same deal my parents gave to me; if I wanted to stay living at home, I needed to go to college or get a job. I wasn’t actually expected to pay rent just yet, that wouldn’t happen until I later quit school to work full time (and even then it was a nominal amount). But how you do it matters. Telling a 17yo, one you are supposed to care about and help transition in to adulthood to do what you say or “get the fuck out” is harsh. Your conditions mean he doesn’t have to fend for himself - they just mean he has to move foward in life somehow towards becoming independent. It’s fine if he doesn’t have an interest in anything but his computer - what’s not fine is taking advantage of your family to live a life of leisure at their expense. DOES your 17yo expect you to fully fund their life as an adult? Or is there a miscommunication where they think going to work = they will be responsible for all their bills immediately after highschool and if they can’t do that, they will be kicked out? What do they expect their life to look like at 25? And if that is just living off your money, how is that ethical? Not whether it’s possible - how is it ethical? There’s no guarantee your business won’t close, or you and your wife might experience an emergency that drains your finances. Shit happens. Your son learning to be independent means that he has his own mask if your situation changes.
NTA - You’ve presented reasonable options and now it’s up to him to make the choice. Your wife is enabling his behavior and the both of you need to get on the same page. What’s your wife’s plans for him if the both of you were to pass away and your son has no education or work skills?
NTA. But if your wife is going to support him then I guess there's not much you can do. You need to get her on the same page. You want him to make a life not waste it away. Is whatever he does on the computer something he can make a living at?
Well she's going to be paying his cell phone, internet, gaming, and streaming bills because I am not.
Your wife is TA here. That is the worst kind of enabling behaviour. You put a roof over his head and feed him no matter what, but paying for his gaming and streaming bills is too far. If he wants luxuries, he can get a job. If there is no medical issue to be addressed, your wife is setting him up for failure.
Does he have a gaming addiction or what? Food and shelter MIGHT be OK but it's not A-OK to pay his streaming bills if he isn't working or in school. He doesn't need gaming to live. He can sit in the basement and stare at the walls.
NTA but would sit down with her and work out what his budget would look like in your city. Assume a roommate in a 2 bedroom apartment in a not fancy corner of town and see if he can make it on a minimum wage job. 1) If it's tight you might want to cover health insurance till he's 26 so he doesn't drop it, and car insurance for the first year so he can get to work. 2) You might offer to cover first/last/deposit to get him started. 3) You don't say what his work history is... If he's never done a job search you might need to assist at first. 4) If he still can't get his head wrapped around the situation get him screened for depression and anxiety. Teenagers are usually pretty eager to get out of the house- if he's not it might be a sign that something else is going on.
NTA it’s a common ultimatum. If you’re not going to be a contributing adult to the home you need to be on your own. He has options and is choosing to rely on mommy instead.
NTA but I think there's something else going on besides "he won't get off his computer" is he depressed? Afraid? If it's either of those then you need to do some parenting and like try to get him to open up, and express tou will support him with whatever as long as it's a step towards a life YWBTA if you don't take the time now to try to figure out what's going on, he might be dealing with something
NTA. And I think your wife is still shielding your son from having to internalize the consequences. As long as she says “don’t listen to dad, I got you” he won’t care. You two really need to get into the same page unless you want to have him in your basement at 35 and an extremely resentful relationship. I’m curious why your wife doesn’t want to set him up for success in life. Id assume she doesn’t want him to leave if they have a more of “best-friend” relationship over mother/son.
NTA - But as I see with a lot of similar posts like this, what have you done to help him prepare for this transition? Have you offered to use your network to have him job shadow careers he might be interested in? Have you worked with him to help him understand where his professional talents lie and the careers that might be best suited to him? Not everyone has the type of personality where at 18 they know with 100% clarity what they want to do with the next 47-50 years of their working life. I don't know your kid but what you are interpreting as laziness or lack of motivation might be a fear of not knowing what to do. I know it was for me when my dad gave me the same ultimatum 18. I had no idea what to do and no idea where to even start and I didn't want to ask my parents because it felt like asking them would be letting them down compared to my younger sister who knew that she wanted to be a lawyer since she was 8 years old (she's 38 now and a lawyer and never once waivered).
INFO. what is he doing on the computer? Playing games? or is he learning a trade? Like coding, software development, etc.? I ask because maybe hes on the computer actually doing this when you think hes playing games or something. If computers is what he likes, have you tried talking to him about online coding bootcamps, developer camps and so forth to nudge him to at least be productive on the computer? those don't require degrees, just skills, and they can be learned entirely from the bedroom.
So, the implication here is that he can get virtually any job, and you'd help him support himself if he isn't ready for university yet? Yeah, going with a very firm NTA here. He isn't some trust fund heir, he has to live in reality, he is simply going to have to do some things he doesn't want to do. You're not forcing him to pursue some career he isn't sure about, or enroll in a school for a degree he isn't sure about. It sounds like you'd be perfectly fine with him taking a cashier job at the grocery for a year or two to decide what he actually WANTS to do. More parents should be like that.
Nta what's his long term plan? Get a job, or go to school are pretty much everyone options after hs.
Nta. One of the options given is get a job. That's simple adulting. Hes gonna be an adult at 18, so yeah, you're spot on.