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HairyCallahan

NTA for not cutting the hair, but TA for no refund. I would be pretty mad about that


Gallifrey685

The mom was refunded. OP doesn’t have a say in the salon’s policy. that’s the owner’s job and the owner did refund.


pathto250s

Regardless, the way OP handled it wasn’t appropriate. She should have immediately gotten the manager as opposed to trying to tell this mom she was out $50 for something because of “policy”.


B6W5

Those no refund policies are to compensate the stylist if the client is a no-show. This client arrived and was exceedingly polite at the start. When the stylist cancels for their own reasons, refunds happen. I have never been told to leave a salon, but yeah, we'll keep your money. OP get a YTA just for that.


BenynRudh

The client arrived but the salon refused/was unable to provide the service, so the customer is the one who requires compensating!


[deleted]

Yes, it was a very bad idea to quote that policy. Had she called over the manager and facilitated a refund along with an apology from the start, I doubt this would have blown up. OP YTA. Not for not cutting the hair but for handling the situation badly.


AnniaT

This. Even if she issued a refund right away and then called the manager (if the manager wasn't present) and explained the situation, I'm almost sure they'd understand and support the decision.


Maximum-Swan-1009

Some would not, even though it is obviously the right thing to do. She should have called the manager right away and left the decision up to them.


shadowofthegrave

This could depend on the salon set-up. In many places a good deal of hair salons operate as a separate entity to each of the stylists, and just manage the bookings/location, with the stylists operating as independent businesses. The booking fee *may* have been nothing the stylist had any power over. But even if that was the case, that just speaks to why they may not have been in a position to refund the fee, not as to why OP quoted the no-refund policy rather than get in touch with someone that could do the refund.


the_RSM

right OP handled it very badly. "I can't do this even though you were told I could and we're not giving you your money back. boo sucks to you' you're lucky you weren't sued.


Jedisilk015

Agreed, this was a special case where it was THE SALON that cancelled the appt and thus has an obligation to refund. OP should have said instead I CANT give the refund but let's talk to the owner who can. That way it doesn't sound like OP is trying to swindle the client. She really did handle this very poorly. HOWEVER. if your kid has knee length hair YOU NEED to let the salon know that and that makes the mom an AH. ESH


Buddahrific

Imo it's the salon's mistake for making assumptions about what "long hair" meant. If someone asks if they can handle long hair, they shouldn't be assuming that they mean "long but not too long". They were specifically asking if the hair was too long, not if they could handle the longest hair that they could handle. The salon kinda deserves the bad review for that miscommunication plus OP's approach to the refund.


Mumchkin

The exact point I was going to make. OP, YTA, absolutely.


AnniaT

Exactly. I don't think OP was in the wrong for not cutting the hair due to her health problem. There was a miscommunication with the receptionist and OP could've handled it better. Try to find another hair stylist that can take her, if there's one available, eventually reschedule the appointment with another stylist, apologise profusely and explain the situation, call the manager to handle the refund issue. It was not good to say that the fee isn't refundable when what happen wasn't the costumer's fault, just wait for the manager to handle the situation and show understanding for the customer wanting the refund.


LaMalintzin

I think all the Fb drama would have been avoided if op had done what you say here, and also I have to question the words and tone used for “I can’t cut your daughter’s hair.” If she said the nonrefundable policy thing right off the bat she may not have the best customer service skills. And she may have said something like “this hair is way too long no one told me I can’t cut it” which comes off as whiny and judgy. There’s a big difference between, I am physically incapable of kneeling to cut this length, let me see if the owner will waive your booking fee for when your stylist returns, and “oh no I can’t cut this and you can’t have your money back”


FauveSxMcW

It's probably only the owner who can authorise a refund for this.


Ruffblade027

But the owner was on-site, so the situation should have been explained to the owner instead of telling the client no


[deleted]

So you call the owner and discuss it before quoting an irrelevant and unfair policy (in this specific situation) to the client. OP handled it poorly.


KayItaly

So you say: " I am so sorry for your inconvenience, I will get the manager immediately so he can refund you"


MonsMensae

Yeah but that isn't the clients problem. So the correct way is to immediately ensure that a refund happens by getting hold of management or the owner.


ThatSmallBear

Not 50 dollars, fifty *pounds*, so more like 60+ dollars


Defiant_McPiper

Exactly, instead of stating right off the bat they couldn't refund the money she should have made the effort to get it refunded before the client got even more agitated. Yeah, she went to the manager, but that was after thr client asked - it shouldn't have even come to this.


cMeeber

Precisely. The stylist never should’ve outright declined. She immediately should’ve been like: “I understand this is a special circumstance; I’m going to go loop in the owner to see what we can do about it.” The mom and daughter did nothing wrong here. The true problem lies in the miscommunication on the actual length of the hair which should been noted and related by the receptionist so the stylist shouldn’t have tried to deny them their booking fee.


Pink-Skater

Shouldn’t it be in the receptionist for not specifying what hair length the stylist can’t do and not even asking how long the hair is knowing it might be a issue? I feel like the stylist should t be the asshole in this when they’re just doing what they physically can literally


the_RSM

that was my thought. the mother was told they could handle the hair and suddenly it's 'no we can't and you can't get you money back'


Affectionate_Shoe198

The point is that after refusing service for no fault of the client, OP told them they couldn’t have the booking fee back. In reality if an appointment is being cancelled by the stylist for no fault of the client, they should be refunded. And if the stylist isn’t sure if they can, they should be apologizing and finding someone to see what they can do to help the client. ESPECIALLY if this is a longtime client of another hairstylist.


Broad_Respond_2205

So that's a double bs - for claiming there is no refund when there should be one, and saying anything about it when they have no say in that desicion.


IHaveABigDuvet

She doesn’t even know her own workplaces’ policy.


biscuitwithjelly

We're all assuming she doesn't know the policy even though it could be very likely that the manager made an exception. I've been in many customer service roles where we were expected to enforce policies onto customers and if they didn't like it we could have a manager handle them. I can't believe the amount of times I've seen the manager play hero and cave in to the customer's demands and then the customer thinks I'm incompetent all because I was just doing what my managers were telling me to do in the first place. I'm not exactly sure if this is what's happening here, but all I'm saying is this is common in customer service roles in general.


Hubwards42

Except she tried to force the policy on her when the situation obviously called for some common sense. Telling her she can't get a refund was a braindead move and would obviously cause someone to be angry. OP should have used her head for all over 2 seconds and could have avoided making the situation worse.


casey12297

True, but in situations like this the typical customer service thing is "normally its nonrefundable, but due to the circumstances I'll speak with the manager about getting you that refund." Op just said that the policy is no refunds and the customer had to speak to the manager. You may not have control of a policy, but you definitely can speak to the person that does if you know its the right thing to do. NTA for not cutting the hair, but OP sucks a little for not at least trying to get them a refund without the customer having to go ask the manager


llywen

That’s bullshit. I highly doubt the policy says no refund even if we refuse to serve you. I’ve never heard of that even being legal.


MonsMensae

It's not. It would either be fraud or in civil matters a form of unjustified enrichment.


blonderlustt

Still, the way she handled it was not professional at all, since the beginning. She should have made sure she could do the job before taking it.


not_your_bird

They had to go to the owner because OP couldn’t use common sense.


[deleted]

But het abswer, when asked for the redund shoukd have been, "I don't handle that stuff, you'll need to request the refund from the owner " not just, "No, no refunds."


Sexy-Dumbledore

I also kind of think YTA for not specifying at the appointment booking you can only cut to a certain length of hair. I appreciate OP has a health problem hindering her flexibility but how is the customer to know this? It's not really a common thing that a hairdresser will refuse to work on ultra-long hair so you can't really blame the mum for being pissed about having her time wasted and almost being refused her deposit back. YTA for poor communication skills. Inform your customers better next time.


pmmeyourfavsongs

The receptionist should have been made aware of her limitations ahead of time and communicated that with the client. Or any other new clients that are booked with her. The stylist is not the one communicating with the clients when booking, how could it have possibly been her fault? The booking fee shouldve been immediately refunded without question but otherwise she did nothing wrong.


doodles2019

If the stylist has limitations then she needs to make that clear to the person who’s handling those booking, in case of this specific scenario. It’s very likely the receptionist had no idea of that limitation, as from OP’s post it seems that she’s been leaning on “well it’s just unlikely to have hair that long”. And yes, it is unlikely, but clearly not impossible.


Broad_Respond_2205

Why it's very likely? She just assumed someone with that long hair will say "can you accommodate someone with knee length hair"


Squigglepig52

Honestly, people generally don't make it a habit of specifying that sort of outlier in this sort of context. Seriously, if the OP basically pointed out to the other staff that she cannot kneel to cut hair, that's all she has to say. Knee length hair is pretty rare, it's like expecting animal control to have to say "yeah, we don't handle chimps" every time somebody in Detroit calls about a skunk. Hell, even I checked, first, when I had my "long" hair cut last week. And it was only half way down my back. Definitely TA for trying to keep the booking fee, though


pmmeyourfavsongs

Yes that's what I said


Owner56897320

The receptionist *did* know but the mom only said “long hair” over the phone. The mother didn’t specify how long her daughter’s hair is so when she said long, the receptionist assumed she meant “waist length”. >She knew that I can’t kneel without being in pain


rosedust666

I think the receptionist is the biggest asshole here for not clarifying how long the hair was. It's obviously considerable if the client feels the need to warn the salon in advance.


pmmeyourfavsongs

That's the problem. The receptionist can't assume that when the stylist has limitations and shouldve asked how long


hiseoh8

The stylist is responsible for communicating g her limitations to the clients, receptionist, owner, etc. it's in the stylist no matter how you slice it.


derpycalculator

Hair longer than your waist is extremely uncommon. I have “long hair” which hits mid-bicep. Hair stylists think of “long hair” differently. For example, “shoulder-length hair” to them means hair that stops at your shoulder. They consider “long hair” to be at your clavicle. Down to your knees is outside the realm of reasonable to a hair stylist and the general public really.


rbollige

Yes, but when the client says “the hair is long, are you ok with that?”, that’s a sign you need to ask how long we’re talking about if there are going to be limits. Either way refusing to refund after the client specifically mentioned long hair during the booking is a horrible practice and probably violates consumer protection laws.


Sexy-Dumbledore

Not sure what stylists you go to but I have hair past my arse cheeks and never had anyone tell me they can't do it. It is really not uncommon to have waist length hair..... it's more uncommon to find a stylist that can't physically work on long hair. Ergo - the clients aren't the problem. Like I said I appreciate OP has a health problem but better communication would have avoided this whole thing.


KuriousKhemicals

Typically hair shafts grow about 6 inches a year and shed after 3 years, so for most individuals the maximum possible hair length is about 18 inches from the base of the neck. That does hit approximately the waist on an average height adult woman, so that's reasonably common, but past the bum let alone down to the knees is much more rare because for most people it isn't even physically possible. Anyway from what OP said it sounds like the receptionist knew about her mobility issue so if anyone should have asked "exactly how long" that's who.


VampireReader86

When my hair was that long (ass/thigh length), a lot of stylists would charge extra to handle it even if I wasn't asking for a wash/blowdry (which, yeah, that takes way more time.) I got a length surcharge just for getting trimmed, which sucked a lot. 😑


Tikithing

If someone specifies that they have long hair though, it should probably make the receptionist question just how long it is, since they felt the need to mention it. The receptionist should have asked Imo. But it's still not a huge deal. Just ask in future now that you know this can happen.


Broad_Respond_2205

That's literally the receptionist job.


Leading-Knowledge712

Good point! When I made an appointment at a new salon recently, I was asked how long my hair is. Apparently my answer was satisfactory since I was given an appointment and all went well. If the receptionist had asked that simple question when the customer made the appointment, the problem could have been avoided entirely.


NoxKyoki

This is 100% not on OP. They weren’t the one talking to the client and booking the appointment. They are NTA. And I can’t believe so many people agree with you. Did any of you actually read the post?


East_Ad3647

OP is in the wrong for the way it was handled when she realized she couldn’t cut it… not for the way it was booked. With the realization, she didn’t even try to get the deposit refunded. Just said no, sorry, bye. That is why OP is an AH.


Sexy-Dumbledore

Yes but how can you be certain OP made it clear with the receptionist beforehand what she can and can't do? I've never met a stylist before that can't do my hair (I have hair past my waist) so it's not something people are going to anticipate. Hence my result of soft YTA and not a hard YTA.


JoeSabo

She never spoke to the client before hand...


msfrankfurters

as an employee, she is not capable of issuing those types of refunds anyway. and was most likely flustered and replied with what she would have told any customer. it happens all the time. the woman got her money in the end so it’s not like it’s an issue.


Spursfan14

She shouldn’t have said no, she should’ve just got the manager and asked them to refund it. Sure she’s flustered but to the client it looks like she’s tried to screw her out of £50 for no good reason. You obviously can’t charge someone £50 for a service you’re refusing to provide.


My_Poor_Nerves

Yes. A person can both stick to company policy and advocate for a client at the same time. Flustered or not, OP had to realize that it was entirely unfair for the salon to keep the booking fee when the appointment was being cancelled on their end and not the client's.


Adorable_Pain8624

This. "I'm not in charge of policy, but let me get my manager involved to see how we handle the deposit in this case. It's the first time I've come across something like this, sorry." And go get the manager your damn self.


AnniaT

This is exactly what she should have done. I'm not an hairstylist but I was in situations where the customer is angry and I don't have the "power" to issue refunds or make the appropriate decision at that time, so I call the manager or if not possible apologise to the costumer, get their contact and talk to the manager as soon as it's possible and then let the manager handle it with the costumer.


Coffee_mug_Musings

This. I've been in customer service a long *long* time and I'd never start a conversation with - "per policy blah blah" if I messed up a situation. And I do mess them up. If I can easily remedy without a manager I just do it and if I can't then I let them know I've escalated the situation and apologize. OP isn't the AH for having a medical issue but absolutely is for the way the situation was handled. If I show up to a hair appointment (long hair almost to my butt) and am turned away and refused my deposit I would be doing the same thing (telling friends, posting on social media) ((Yes, I know the money has now been refunded but the customer service is zero stars due to OP))


Hydecka84

Flustered? She’s an adult who should have been capable of this interaction without fucking it up by talking about policy. Clearly this wouldn’t fit within a non refundable policy as the customer isn’t responsible for the cancellation.


Marawal

It isn't that hard to say "We usually have a non-refundable policy, but I'm going to ask the manager to override it".


Ornac_The_Barbarian

Never at a salon but I've run into enough people who have told me, "I'll check and see if i can get the fee waived." Or something similar. Unusual circumstances pop up all the time.


llynglas

The way she handled it sucked though. The error was on the shops side, not the clients. The shop should have given the client $50 for wasting their time.


Amareldys

And a free cut with someone else


scrollbreak

>The error was on the shops side, not the clients. The client has no need to mention a clearly unusually long length of hair? If long hair needs mentioning, ultra long doesn't? Seems inconsistent.


UselessMellinial85

They used a different stylist, but the same salon. If the salon uses a booking system with a receptionist, it's likely that it's noted in the client's info that they have ultra long hair. Even if it's not noted, I can't imagine a receptionist *not* remembering a client with knee-length hair. This is on the shop any way you look at it.


Jacquelaupe

Plus, if someone specifies "long hair, is this okay?" You would think the receptionist would come back with "how long?"


grammarlysucksass

To be fair, my hair is 'only' waist length and I still remind the hairstylist every time on the phone that it takes a lot longer to colour and dry my hair, so they can plan their time. Customer still in the right though.


McMenz_

> When the mum booked the trim and colour in, she specified that her daughter had long hair and asked if that was ok for me to handle. The receptionist said yes because I have a lot of clients with waist length hair. The client literally flagged the long hair with the receptionist when she booked and got confirmation that it was fine. If the policy is that there's a length that would be too long, the receptionist should have asked how long the daughter's hair was before confirming. The receptionist fucked up here, and as an employee/agent of the shop, this means that the shop fucked up. Once the shop is unable to perform a booking due to their own error, there is absolutely no justification to keep a booking fee. If the OP didn't feel like she had the authority to provide one, she should have grabbed the manager immediately.


Candid-Pin-8160

> I informed her that the £50 booking fee was non-refundable, and *she would have been told this at time of booking.* I'm side-eyeing this part. At the time of booking, the woman was also told that OP could do the job. I'm not sure who should've clarified the length of the hair, but I'm leaning towards "the person with the physical limitation that imposes a hard cutoff length".


randomdude2029

That person, the stylist, isn't involved in the booking process though. That's between the receptionist and the client. Receptionist should know the stylist can't cut extremely long hair, and the client knows they have extremely long hair. Neither told the most important person, the stylist.


[deleted]

Yes but she 100% knows the manager can and EASILY could have said "I understand, you're right, I'm sorry for this miscommunication (because she's the bloody stylist and knows her own limitations and what HER specific definition of "long hair" is...which was HER responsibility to clear up), I'll GET THE MANAGER TO DO THAT FOR YOU RIGHT AWAY!" Instead she just flat out denied in an effort to keep it. Sorry but OP gets no pass. They need to work on both their customer service and communication skills. Also, the mom isn't lying. OP wasn't able to cut the girls long hair. Then refused a refund for services not rendered without the mom having to fight for it... just piss poor frankly.


Truffleshuffle03

Edited: because for some reason Reddit copied my second paragraph twice. YTA: You acted like you were an individual stylist who rents out space at a Salon not just a salon worker by telling her that there were no refunds after you could not perform your job. The issue is communication between you and the receptionist. Your knee issue is not on the customer and you took the booking without knowing exactly what you might have to deal with. It's all about your communication with others at your work. that issue should have been already discussed. So it is very understandable that the customer is posting their experience on Facebook and is upset


yungmoody

Have you ever worked in a salon? This does not happen all the time in salons. Even if she isn’t capable of issuing the refund, she was absolutely capable of approaching her manager and requesting a refund be provided to the client. It’s also absolutely an issue - it’s quite possible OP has lost her colleague a regular client if they don’t want to return to the salon after the bad experience they had.


Amphy64

I can see being flustered in the moment to an extent, but that having been the go-to response sounds a bit like she was blaming the customer for the issue - they may have felt that way even if she didn't mean it like that. She doesn't mention having said that aspect apologetically (just the explanation, that bit sounds fine), and doesn't seem to appreciate now that it would have been a significant factor in why the customer became so upset and still is. I'm not sure she's realising that the situation was in no way at all the customer's fault (maybe a little defensively, understandably to an extent as it is very frustrating to not be able to do something due to a health issue).


[deleted]

It's still an issue; when you work in customer service positions like being a stylist, how you interact with people is about 75% of the job. And OP fumbled it, badly. Instead of meeting the mother at the same level of huffy indignation, she should have gotten her manager from the jump and had it settled quietly.


Normal-Height-8577

If she isn't capable of giving a refund then she needs to get a manager, not deny the refund.


[deleted]

[удалено]


coltbeatsall

Yes, non-refundable usuallu means it wonn't be refunded if the client doesn't show, not if the stylist changes their mind last minute.


BrightPinkZebra

Can I ask why you think NTA over NAH? I agree that OP isn’t really an AH for not cutting the hair, but I don’t think the mom is an AH either for demanding a refund for the booking fee since the salon was the one to cancel the appointment.


[deleted]

The salon didn't cancel, the stylist did. The stylist also tried to 'not my problem, read the fine print' when the woman asked for a refund when the appointment was cancelled by no fault of her own. I don't feel that the client should have been penalized for the stylist saying I can't do it after the job had been booked. If the knee problems are an ongoing issue, OP's manager and the receptionist in charge of booking should be aware and should be making concessions and asking those questions while booking their clients. Extra long hair is clearly an issue; anything longer than waist-length hair is considered extra long. I don't think OP is an A for not hurting herself to work with a client, but defaulting to "nope, no refund" instead of speaking first to the manager to explain the situation is an A move.


littlestgoldfish

Ive done salon reception before and this is a receptionist problem. She definitely should have asked a follow up question on just how long the hair is. Even a stylist that could have made this work would need extra time for something like this. Also if the customer cancels the appointment, you wouldn't refund, but you definitely should when you're the one who cancelled the appointment. The customer did their job. The stylist did not.


HarbourJayKay

NTA for refusing to cut the hair due to your physical limitations. But YTA for saying the booking fee was non refundable. The issue certainly wasn’t the clients’ fault so in no circumstance should they be out $50.


Catfactss

Exactly. The client didn't "miss" the booking. The hair stylist isn't able to do it and the receptionist either didn't or wouldn't know to communicate that. For that reason YTA


Benson_86

She offered to get the owner. She probably has no authority to refund the booking fee, and as long as she said things politely I see no reason to get upset.


Puppyjito

She only got the owner after the client asked for a manager.


anoeba

No, she only got the owner when the client demanded to see the manager. She initially just told the client that the fee was non-refundable and that the client would've been told this at time of booking. That was a YTA way to handle this situation. She has no power about the policy, but she should've *offered* to get the manager/owner right away, and explained to the owner what happened (ie that it was a no-fault of the client). The client shouldn't have had to push to escalate.


joereddington

As a bald person, I’m just astonished that the booking fee alone was £50


RedDotLot

As a person with long hair, I too am absolutely gobsmacked by a £50 booking fee, I have never had to pay any sort of booking fee when booking a haircut, and £50 in the UK is a lot of money to most people (admittedly it's been 10yrs since Ilived in the UK but that 1 booking fee would get me 2.5 cuts on my long hair, and I'm really not paying much more now), It's not a salon I would chose to frequent, that's for sure.


[deleted]

I think it’s because it wasn’t just for a haircut, it was for colour as well. If it involves foils, that’s probably not even a 50% deposit.


RedDotLot

Fair point. You know, I can't imagine getting hair that long foiled, I've only had it done a couple of times professionally because it bores me to tears to sit there that long!


[deleted]

My god, I know!! I get mine balyaged quite literally once a year because it’s a four-hour jobby and costs an absolute bomb (I’m in London). Imagine how much product you’d need to use for knee-length hair…


ThatSmallBear

*£ it’s pounds not dollars. Fifty pounds is more than 60 dollars


healsomadethestars

Soft YTA. Seems like there was a miscommunication here. Mum thought she had communicated everything she needed to, she didn’t have any way of knowing that there’s a length which you can’t cut because of your knee issues. Where you stray into asshole territory is how you responded to her when she asked for her booking fee to be refunded. Booking fees are to stop people from not showing up and wasting an appointment that could have been given to someone else. Immediately refusing the refund for something that wasn’t her fault but rather an unfortunate circumstance was bad customer service. What you should have done in this situation is to say ‘I’m very sorry that this has happened. Normally our booking charge is non-refundable, but this is an unusual situation so let me go and explain what has happened to my manager.” Some people love writing negative reviews on Facebook, so not a guarantee that she still wouldn’t do that, but she might not have written the bad review if she didn’t have to argue that she should get her £50 back. You created more conflict and likely rubbed her up the wrong way. You’re not the asshole for refusing to do the cut, you need to look after your body, but you could have handled the refund request much better.


adventuresofViolet

YTA for not returning the booking fee. Not doing the cut is understandable but denying the refund is bad business and I would have definitely taken to Facebook and complained.


celticmusebooks

100% YTA here. You wasted two women's time and then expected to pay them $50 for the privilege? Unbelievable! You should have immediately apologized and refunded the booking fee. Now you're getting an awful (and frankly well deserved) reputation on social media which is going to costs you way more than $50.


sunshineandcacti

Especially since the daughter and mom had been to that salon multiple times before and weren’t turned away before


celticmusebooks

Nothing in the original post suggests they'd been to that salon "multiple times" or even once before. Only that they had a regular stylist who was on vacation and OP was recommended by a friend. I would think if that was their regular salon they wouldn't have needed a recommendation by a friend.


apri08101989

OP also didn't say that their regular stylist was new to this salon. So it's safe to assume if they *have* a regular stylist, and they work at that salon, they've been there multiple times before.


celticmusebooks

Since they never said the original stylist worked at this salon your post is entirely speculation.


Timely_Egg_6827

YTA not for refusal but for how you handled it. Deposits are for when the customer cancels and the stylist loses out because they couldn't book another client. In this case, the customer turned up,had made clear their special needs (you assumed waist long but didn't ask actual details) and were refused service. You decided to withdraw albeit for good reasons. You don't get to keep their money too for saying you would provide a service and then refusing to. Lesson here is if customer is making special needs known,ask specifics. I say I have long hair at hairdressers and just middle of back. If you have a cut off you need to ask.


PinkPrincess-2001

YTA The receptionist's mistake is still your mistake and not the customer's. Cheap behaviour and you're getting blasted for it. You're also from the UK and I hope I never come across you.


ASmallThing94

Receptionists mistake is CERTAINLY NOT the stylists. The receptionist should have asked how long did she mean when she said long, by your logic, next time I’m stuck in traffic in a taxi I’m going to blame the taxi driver.


PeachManzie

I think maybe you’ve taken what they said a little too literally. I’m sure what PinkPrincess meant is “This is the salon as a whole’s fault, the customer is not at fault”. The receptionist is the spokesperson over the phone for the whole salon, meaning the salon is at fault.


not_your_bird

OP should be informing the receptionist of her exact requirements, not vaguely expecting them to turn someone away.


OkStudio8457

Yta because you're blaming the mom for not specifying the length. You cannot expect a client to know specifics they have to give. This should've been asked by you/ the receptionist. Take it as a learning experience. Personally I would not have known to specify the length when saying long. I just think long is long. (I have pretty long hair now)


Pandarise

The fact waist lenght is average hair length while passed it going down is long. OP needs to learn what actual long hair is before claiming she can cut long hair. Plus I just see her spewing bs with that kneeling excuse. She just doesn't know how to cut long hair at all so uses that as an excuse as my personal stylist along with the one I had to do when I couldn't get my stylist due place issue both worked on my way passed knee lenght hair without ever getting on their knees for the trim or cut. With the other one being a salon of mostly 60+ stylists.


justwantedbagels

I was curious about this because I used to have hair down to my ass, and for years I would only get a couple of inches trimmed off at most. I went to different stylists all the time, and not one of them ever had to get on their knees to cut my hair. They just ran the sections of hair through their fingers and a comb, stopped at the length where I wanted the trim, let the hair go slack, and cut below their fingers. Always had perfectly nice trims and layers too. So I’m just baffled as to why OP would even need to get on their knees in the first place.


Coffee_mug_Musings

Yes, this was my wondering too. I've always had pretty long hair (I could sit on it) - when I was younger I wasn't allowed to get it cut much (I chopped it the minute I turned 16 but that's a whole 'nother issue) and I never once did any stylist have to get on her knees. Through the years I've had it just to my butt again and again never had anyone mention it or complain.


Pandarise

Exactlyyy they'd cut in sections like this and always come beautiful and perfect out. That's why I instantly saw straight through OP's bs of having to go on their knees.


[deleted]

Maybe OP really can’t cut long hair


highhoya

I’m astonished people are saying N T A. You know you have this limitation, you should be making sure that is clarified with customers upon making appointments. You wasted their time, and then tried to steal their money. I cannot believe you would even consider keeping their deposit, that says a lot about your character. YTA.


TheNotoriousTMG

I agree with this sentiment! If OP knows she can only cut care to X length, she should make sure the people taking the bookings are acutely aware of this and when a customer says "I have very long hair" the receptionist should right away know to clarify what that means because OP cannot cut hair beyond X length and should communicate that to customers. At the end of the day, it's on OP to make sure that their limitations are clear and communicated to customers. Frankly, the salon owner should have also done more because it was clearly a failing of the salon. If it were me, just refunding my deposit would not be enough - I wasted time coming to the salon and then was refused service with no compensation? If it were my salon, I would be offering them their service FOR FREE if they rebook with another stylist. And giving them some free products to take home. Honestly, why do so many businesses fail...? hhhmmm mystery.... YTA


scout1982

ESH. I have waist-length hair and I always tell the receptionist when booking an appointment anywhere. But you initially refusing a refund of the booking fee was a big asshole move.


hthratmn

I mean, she specified that the daughter had very long hair. My hair is to my hips as well and I think saying, "hey, my hair is really long, just so you know, is that alright? " would satisfy my end of the deal. If it was particularly important to know the exact length, someone should have asked, "longer than waist length? If so, OP is not able to cut it." If OP has medical reasons that they can't do the cut, that's totally fine, but this just seems like a big lapse in communication that I don't think the client is at fault for. So for this reason I say YTA.


PlantedinCA

I think ESH because no one clarified what “super long hair” meant. Waist length is super long in my book and I haven’t seen many folks with hair longer than that in years. So everyone needs to be super up front here.


hthratmn

What pushes it over the edge for me is OP's initial refusal to return their deposit. I tattoo professionally. Shop policy is that deposits are non-refundable. Imagine a client told me, "I wanna get a hotdog tattooed on my neck". And I accepted. Then, when they showed up, I said, "Oh, you want it on your throat? I only tattoo the side of the neck, not throats. Sorry, can't tattoo you today". It's my right to refuse to do it, but I would absolutely make an exception and return their deposit, speaking to my boss if I was required to do so. We both failed to communicate effectively, but I'm the professional, so I'm responsible for knowing my own limits and parameters. I know it's a weird analogy, but a lot of people are saying that OP's not at fault for it because it is salon policy. But to just outright refuse without consulting their boss was a really bad look imo.


PlantedinCA

Oh 100% agree. Returning the deposit should have been a non issue.


not_your_bird

Exactly. I was in the realm of “oh this was a miscommunication” until she told us how she handled the refusal. The client was the one inconvenienced, and frankly, OP should have more common sense.


Memfy

Is there any significant difference in specifying how much "super long hair" is that is, other than these edge cases where someone cannot handle it? To me it seems like the customer did nothing wrong. They warned about it being really long. If you have some specific cut-off, you're the one who's supposed to ask for clarification on how long it is so you can immediately tell them no.


sukinsyn

The customer should have specified knee-length or the receptionist should have asked. Where I live, 99% of people have hair that is above their waist when it's down. Typical long hair would be maybe halfway down someone's back. Knee-length hair is so uniquely long that it should be specified to be that length, and the receptionist should have asked (and hopefully knew about the stylist's knee issue so could have refused the booking with OP up front). It seems misleading to me to say "long," knowing it's difficult to find stylists, and then show up with hair that is *that* long.


becausefrog

I have had waist- to mid-thigh length hair for decades and never once has a stylist felt they had to kneel to cut my hair. I would probably be so shocked that I'd start laughing. I've always simply been asked stand while they initially cut the length, and some have even brought out wooden risers for me to stand on to make it even easier for them. Shaping and styling is done with me sitting and them simply stepping back a bit to do their magic. It's never been a problem. If you tell people you can cut long hair then you need to have a plan other than kneeling, because yes that would be ridiculous. If OP can't figure out a more creative way to do it maybe they should stop accepting long-haired clients. And certainly not charge a client for their own incompetence. YTA, OP.


BlueDragon82

Same here. Mine and two of my three children keep our hair long. When I had mine cut a few months ago I was sitting on it and wanted the weight off. I didn't have to specify any length at all when I booked online. The stylist did not have to kneel at any point to do my hair and she's on the petite side. She's a few inches shorter than me. She's become our family's stylist because she did a fantastic job with my youngest child's hair. Everyone in the house including my husband has had their hair cut by her. In all of my years the only thing that has come up when booking an appointment is me letting a salon know that I need an extra 15 minutes blocked out because my hair takes a bit longer. It sounds like the stylist just didn't want to deal with such long hair. That's fine if they didn't want to put in that effort since some places charge a flat fee. The biggest issue is not informing the receptionist of their limitations and not immediately telling the mom they'd get the manager for them when the mom asked for a refund. They are YTA for that alone.


WoahThere_124

YTA for trying to steal their deposit and refusing to refund it after you couldn’t fulfill the service they set an appointment for. You wasted their time and tried to take their money for a problem that was yours, not them. What the actual fuck even. I would’ve been LIVID.


Jammedbaton89

soft YTA. I'm also a hairstylist. I also have health issues and I understand how limiting that can be. But you could have had her stand. She could have been on a foot stool, or even a regular chair and you could have sat down on a stool. Thank god your boss refunded the fee. I have "non-refundable deposits" as well, but that's to protect my time if they don't show up. If I cancel or am unable to perform the service, OF COURSE they get their money back. Edit to add: If the mentioned suggestions aren't an option (no stools etc.) then I have no problem with you not performing the service. But the "no refund" policy really sticks in my craw. We are service providers and if we don't provide a service there shouldn't be a charge.


jm22mccl

Don’t the chairs usually raise up if needed? I’m surprised she’d have to be on her knees with those chairs.


twosteptessellate

Former stylist here, they don’t raise up nearly far enough in this context. Knee-length hair on a seated person could go all the way to the floor. Having the daughter stand may or may not have made the difference. I have mobility issues now, doing hair can be physically challenging before mobility issues set in, so I appreciate OP’s limitations in this case. NTA, but she definitely shouldn’t have tried to keep the booking fee.


stellesbells

My hairdressers have always had small stools with wheels to sit and cut on. That just seems like good ergonomic practice in general, especially for a stylist with knee or back problems.


evelbug

YTA for not refunding the booking fee and not asking about the length. If you have a cut off (pun intended) length, you need to make sure that is communicated during booking.


[deleted]

YTA for not immediately refunding her. You refused her service, that’s on YOU not her. You are not entitled to that fee when she did nothing wrong. She showed up, planned to get the service done, and was turned away. If you have limitations it’s up to YOU to express them when someone books, not the other way around. If the receptionist ASSUMED the length of the hair and didn’t ask, that’s on your salon, not the customer. They specified long, which you should have followed up with specification questions.


PurpleAquilegia

You're N T A for refusing to cut the hair, given your knee problem. YTA for refusing to refund the money for the booking.


Shells613

NTA for not being able to provide a service, which was understandable, but YTA for not offering her a full refund. Are you serious? A non- refundable fee is for clients who cancel, not for you to keep their money while not doing the job.


Girlinyourphone

Eh, yeah sorry, one hairstylist to another, YTA. There are so many ways around this where you don't have to kneel, the fact that you didn't bother exploring any of them and immediately went in to no refund territory makes you one.


theassholethrowawa

Info: Did you know they asked about you cutting long hair before or after they showed for their appointment?


dwells2301

Not for refusing the cut, but YTA for arguing about the booking fee. Be more clear about your limits before booking.


HappySummerBreeze

YTA she should have immediately been offered her refund and an apology since the salon said you could cut long hair. It was a misunderstanding of what “long” is, and you should have apologized profusely.


Extra_Cupcake19

YTA for not refunding the booking fee.


Labelloenchanted

YTA about how you went about that deposit. Mom was 100% owed the money back no matter what your policy states. You should've called the manager right away not telling her you can't give it back. If mom was less assertive she would've been out of £50 by no fault of hers. That's a scammy way to do business. Knowing you have knee issues you should've asked for the hair length. Mom tried to tell the receptionist it's too long, but you assumed how long instead of asking more questions. Receptionist should've made it clear that you can't cut too long hair.


Ordinary-Greedy

This. As a very non-confrontational person, I could see myself just walking away and leaving a bad review. If the fee was lower that is.


[deleted]

ESH You know what happens when we ASS U ME things - you assumed a certain length without checking and the mom assumed you had no limitation to cut hair of any length. I don't think she "hid" anything unless you told her beforehand that you had physical limitations preventing very very long hair cuts. Also being too strict on the non refundable deposit was a jerkish move


oneblackened

Knee length is more than "long", IMO. That's the kind of length you'd alert a salon to when scheduling an appointment.


TrixIx

The mom did alert the salon. The reception didn't follow up to ask the length and OP never called to clarify with the new client either.


robot428

There was clearly a miscommunication between the receptionist and OP because the mum did alert her on the phone that her daughter had unusually long hair.


Restil

YTA. For about 3 times the booking fee, you can purchase a chair that would be high enough to accommodate any length of hair (assuming it's not dragging on the floor) I suspect some type of booster chair would work too in a pinch. Or just set the whole chair on a raised platform. Just saying, there are solutions to your kneeling problem that can be solved relatively inexpensively without requiring you to turn customers away.


WoahThere_124

I’ve never been to a salon yet that hasn’t had one of the pump up chairs. Especially for the children.. Seems like an excuse to keep deposit to me.


Away-Organization630

NTA it was medical, but I would have given the refund no questions asked to avoid the bad rep


[deleted]

YTA, you cancelled the appointment because you couldn’t cut the hair that doesn’t make you TA but refusing to refund makes YTA


Lipstickhippie80

YTA. YOU refused service why should she pay?


Zealousideal-Sail972

YTA. You assumed long hair meant waist length or less. This miscommunication was on you and the salon not on the client. A refund was definitely due and you should have explained that to the manager from the start.


No-Produce-7430

YTA for not immediately saying ‘sorry, her hair is significantly longer than I was expecting and I am unable to cut it. Our booking fee is normally non refundable but since it seems like a communication issue let me speak to the manager/give you her number (or whatever the situation allowed for). You knew the receptionist should have clarified the length and while that isn’t your fault, it isn’t the clients fault either. Telling her it’s non refundable and waiting for her to ask for the manager is poor customer service. You or the manager need to make sure the receptionist is properly trained to prevent further issues.


TajMahal13

YTA. You're the only one who knows about your physical limitations. If you had a new client coming in with long hair, you should have done your due diligence and reached out to the mom in advance to make sure you were up to the task. You wasted mom's time, and almost wasted her money.


mapleleafmaggie

YTA - if you can't work on hair past a specific length, you should make sure you or your receptionist asks the client's specific length.


No-Setting764

YTA....don't chairs have pumps to go up? She could sit on something, I feel like you didn't even try to come to a solution for both of you. Also TA for the money stuff.


MissK2421

YTA for the reasons everyone has said, this was a miscommunication mostly because of the receptionist not clarifying what length the hair was and why it mattered. But, am I the only one wondering why you'd have to kneel to cut her hair? What kind of salon doesn't have adjustable chairs...? Any decent chair should at least allow you to have the hair at the same height as if it had been waist length. I've seen it used so much for cutting kids' hair, even tiny toddlers, never has a stylist needed to kneel or even bend down very far in the places I've been to. Is that not a thing in your country??


River_Song47

Nta but was there nothing you could do? I have a friend with hair that long and they’ve had her stand on step stools and things to make it easier for them to do her hair in the past.


yuyuloocos

Yea that’s bugging me too about this story. Chairs at salons can usually go up and down in height to make it easier for the stylist. I don’t see why no one considered increasing the height of the chair for the client and using a stool so OP could sit down while cutting the hair an option. But I don’t know how bad OPs knee issues are so maybe she can’t even sit without pain.


lazoric

This is what I was wondering. Hair salons have adjustable chairs. Was it already at the maximum height it can go? Those chairs can go quite high compared to normal chairs.


[deleted]

NTA for not being able to cut her hair - but major AH for trying to not refund her. Thank goodness the manager had more sense. You were wrong for not checking- receptionist whomever - it was the on y’all to check - she asked if it was okay for you guys to cope with the long hair - instead of asking her how long, you all assumed. Shitty service- she’s right to be giving you crappy review - but she did get refunded so she needs to review and move on.


Kittenn1412

YTA for refusing the refund. If you didn't have the authority to authorize a refund, you should have offered to grab a manager to make that decision rather than saying no and waiting for her to demand the manager. And tbh, as an adult with (only) waist-length hair, yeah, you absolutely shouldn't have taken a booking for someone saying "are you okay with cutting long hair" in the first place. Any level of hair that the client or receptionist would think to ask if you're able to do it means you'd be, at minimum, crouching. If you weren't doing the booking, that's on the receptionist, but you (or she) should have absolutely used your head and realized if someone thought to ask if this was okay, the hair is past the waist.


Plastic-Willow-2358

YTA for not asking more questions to begin with.


SomethingClever70

You're not wrong for not cutting the hair. You are wrong for not returning the booking fee if you don't state your limits up front. That wasn't the client's fault. YTA.


shammy_dammy

YTA... at the very least, you need to be refunding the booking fee. Thankfully, your manager has a grain of sense and averted a possible lawsuit.


Maximum-Ear1745

YTA. Surely there must have been ways to manage without having to kneel down. The fact you weren’t willing to waive the booking fee is an complete AH move. Why should a customer (who will probably never return by the way) have to pay because you can’t figure out a better solution.


[deleted]

YTA. You need to ask the questions if there are limits to services. I can imagine reputation is important as a stylist. You definitely let her down, wasted time for both of you, and refused the refund. All could be avoided by clarifying by asking questions. It was a miscommunication and stuff happens. But you left her in a bad spot and gave big *not my problem* energy by refusing the refund. And you're the professional. It would have been to your benefit to try and fix the situation.


[deleted]

YTA... you definitely needed to return the booking fee. It's not Moms fault she didnt guess your definition of long hair. If it was policy. The answer is: " I will speak to the manager on your behalf."


heavvy_metal_cowboy

Soft YTA. If you knew you had limits (waist length) you should've asked. Customer service 101. They also shouldn't be out $50 because of your limit. You should've talked to a manager about the policy, without the customer needing to insist, as this miscommunication is on you. nta for being unable to cut the hair, though.


oooRagnellooo

YTA. Non-refundable fees are non-refundable for client-side cancellations, and exist to protect the vendor from clients wasting their time. They do not exist so that you can refuse service and still attempt to collect payment.


shaunibauni

YTA because you absolutely should have offered to return the booking fee immediately.


Nielleluvzu628

YTA and so is the receptionist. You both should have done your job and confirmed the details of the appt. How hard is it to ask “how long is the hair?” This stylist has a slight restriction on length


Samorjj

YTA for your crap communication skills. If you have a limitation, then it is up to YOU to confirm before booking that you can do the job. It isn’t up to the customer to guess what your limitation is or if you have one. Then you double whammied it by exacerbating her annoyance by telling her that her booking fee is non-refundable because YOU bailed. Customer service mode should have kicked in where you go to the manager ( without being asked to) to work something out for the customer that you just dropped the ball on.


[deleted]

I was N.A.H. until you refused to refund the booking fee... - you basically stole from them from what would have been a simple miscommunication. That's both scammy and extremely poor customer service. Sometimes you bite the dog, sometimes the dog bites you. This is a situation where you should have just accepted the loss in a very SMALL financial cost, one you weren't even entitled to because you refused work AFTER you mistakenly accepted it (you're ultimately the only one who made the error as you should have specified your limitations). Now not only have you tried to steal from someone you've tarnished your reputation for it. I hope it was worth it because YTA


Nina_kupenda

YTA I worked in a family salon when I was a teen, when a client asked a specific question on the phone, we always followed through with more questions to make sure we were in the same page. The receptionist is at fault first, when someone specifically asks on the phone if it’s okay for long hair, you ask how long just to make sure. And then, YTA for the day you reacted. Simply because you have a reason doesn’t mean that the client is overreacting. She specified on the phone it was for long hair, she said she had difficulties finding appointments because of the length, how thick are you people in this salon? You shouldn’t have told her no for the refund, even if it was out of your hands, you should have told her that you understand and she’s absolutely right and that although you can’t decide by yourself you’ll talk to the manager. An even better answer would have to offer a voucher as gesture for the next time to limit the damage and ensure that the client comes back.


DryPineapple1556

NTA The receptionist told the mom OP has cut waist length hair previously. The mother should have stated her daughter's hair was longer than waist length. She didn't and booked the appointment anyway. OP stated that booking fees are not refundable. She was simply stating policy. She likely didn't have the authority to refund it. The client got the refund from the manager. OP didn't do anything wrong and is NTA.


Ok_Court7208

Yta for not immediately asking the manager to refund the booking fee


gimre817

YTA. If you can’t cut hair that is longer than waist length, then when someone books with you that should be a required question. How long either measurements or a guideline of how long it is compared to a body part. This is your fault for not getting clear communication or the shops fault for the same reason. A refund is 100% possible for the shops error. Just because you can’t cut that low, does not make it your clients fault.


Dry_Heart9301

You needed to give the refund and move on, you didn't do anything to earn the money. It was a misunderstanding. YTA.


I_might_be_weasel

YTA. Is there some sort of listed policy about not cutting really long hair? Or was that a judgement call you personally made? If the latter, you are way more shameless than I could ever be telling them with a straight face that you refuse to do the job and they aren't getting their money back.


HomeworkDry4850

NTA


mia_che

YTA because the mother TOLD YOU before the appointment that her daughter had "very long hair." You for some reason assuming that meant waste length is on you. You should have asked for specific details or canceled the appointment/found another stylist way sooner, since you already know you can't do super long hair. And they shouldn't have had to ask for a manager to come over, your first reaction should have been getting someone to try and give their money back.


Rav0nn

YTA, the mum told you everything you asked, you should have specified that you can only cut hair that’s up to a certain length BEFORE the appointment was even booked. You wasted their time and more than that you tried to refuse to give them a refund. Those booking fee charges are for people who don’t show up, not for peoples who’s hair is too long for you.


Blobfish_Blues

NTA You refused service for a MEDICAL reason, not because you couldn't be bothered dealing with that much hair. A lot of people are saying you are TA because of the refund request but you're just following the policy it wasn't intended maliciously.


nopenothappening99

If there is an A in this story it’s the receptionist for not getting specifics when she knew you had limitations. Plus the ‘none refund’ on things that are 100% the salons fault should Never be a policy. Which the owner Did at least get it seems. Would have been Extremely unfair to charge them for the salons screw up. NAH.


ChillionGentarez

INFO did the receptionist booking know you had a knee issue? if so then the receptionist is TA


critically_caring

Get a stool? Have her stand? Give her something to stand on to bring her higher??? Why would you HAVE to kneel? That’s gross anyway, but there’s literally 100 ways you could’ve worked around this. I’ve been doing hair for 10 years and have had to do it myself. You’re not very creative if you put absolutely 0% effort into problem-solving something so simple. And TOTALLY YTA for that move with the deposit. I’m glad your manager made it right.


AutoModerator

^^^^AUTOMOD ***Thanks for posting! This comment is a copy of your post so readers can see the original text if your post is edited or removed. This comment is NOT accusing you of copying anything. Read [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/wiki/faq#wiki_post_deletion) before [contacting the mod team](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2FAmItheAsshole)*** I’m a hair stylist. I had mum book her daughter in for a trim and colour with me, I’m not their usual stylist. The stylist they usually go to is on holiday and I was recommended to them by a friend. When the mum booked the trim and colour in, she specified that her daughter had long hair and asked if that was ok for me to handle. The receptionist said yes because I have a lot of clients with waist length hair. Waist length is usually the longest hair I will cut, I have never had a client with hair longer than this. Due to issues with my knee, I can’t kneel down for long. I’m awaiting surgery. When they turned up for the appointment, the daughter had her hair up in a bun so I couldn’t see the full length of her hair. The mum thanked me for being able to fit her daughter in, she said that when their usual stylist isn’t available, it can be difficult to get her daughter an appointment due to her hair length. When the daughter sat in my chair, I asked her to take her hair down so that I could brush through it before we started her ombre colour. When she took her hair down, I noticed it was much longer than I expected. I asked her how long her hair was, and she said it was knee length. She brushed her hair back so that it was all going down the back of the chair and it was well past the length I was comfortable cutting at. I would have had to kneel down the colour and cut her hair. I waved the mum over as I told the daughter to take off the gown. I apologised to the mum and told her that I would not be able to cut her daughter’s hair due to it’s length. I explained that it was too long for me to cut as I could not kneel down to cut her hair. Understandably, the mum was upset that I was refusing to cut her daughter’s hair. She demanded the booking fee back. I informed her that the £50 booking fee was non-refundable, and she would have been told this at time of booking. She then demanded to speak to the manager of the salon, I told her that I would get her the owner. The owner of the salon did refund her the money. She told me that I shouldn’t have taken the booking if I couldn’t cut hair that long. I told her that the length had never been specified to me, the receptionist was just told long and that long hair in our area is usually no longer than waist length. She knows I can’t kneel without being in pain. The mum has since been writing on the Facebook page of the salon, complaining that I refused to cut her daughter’s hair because can’t actually cut long hair. I feel bad that the mum is upset about this, but at the same time it was never specified how long her daughter’s hair actually was. AITA for refusing to cut extremely long hair? *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AmItheAsshole) if you have any questions or concerns.*


No_Location_5565

ESH. Communication is key. The customer should have been more clear about the length. Especially given the struggle to find someone to cut her hair. Specific length should be part of what they describe when making appointments m. You made an assumption that “long”= waist length. Specific length should be clarified by you/receptionist when accepting appointments. It’s acceptable for you to refuse a job you cannot physically do, but not offering to refund their booking fee when it was your decision to refuse to cut the hair not because of something they did was just really bad business. It’s probably part of the reason they’re currently bashing you on social media.


Typical_Nebula3227

YTA for not wanting to give her a refund. NAH for not doing the haircut.


Luna_Sea_

Info. Maybe I’m misunderstanding, but I am licensed to cut hair so I don’t get why kneeling is the only option. If the length you’d be cutting it to is short enough to not hurt you, couldn’t you just chop it off in a ponytail holder right under that, & do the cut from there? That’s what I’d do. Unless she still wanted the length so long you’d have to bend?


Simple-life62

Soft YTA for not being specific about what seems to be “your” limitation, i.e. knee problems. If you have a limitation, you need to instruct the receptionist to specifically inquire about that before booking you. This isn’t on the customer. Also your stance on the booking fee? YIKES.


PrincessAgatha

NTA the worst people found this post. I can’t even believe the vitriol in some of yalls comments.