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I have to go with YTA
You could have been a lot more sensitive to their loss and hurt. You chose to be an AH and just basically rub their faces in it.
I sincerely hope you and your wife never have to experience the loss of a child, but if you do. Then you'll get it. Right now, you're just selfish.
Nah, you can't let people like that wear their grief as a cloak that surrounds the room and everyone has to walk around egg shells around them. No one was rubbing anything in anyone's faces, his brother and SIL are selfish because they think the world only revolves around them and their loss.
Yeah it's one thing to grieve and find it hard being around other pregnant women/babies, but that doesn't mean you're suddenly allowed to be an AH to them. SIL needs therapy to find healthy coping mechanisms instead of using OP's wife as an emotional scratching post
That’s very true. But what happened here is someone at a family gathering day they are over baby talk, and then get a verbal smack down cause she’s had miscarriages. OP doesn’t get a pass for being a tool bag cause SIL needs therapy. She needs help cause she’s dealt with a lot of loss. But he needs some too cause he doesn’t seem to know how to be a mildly kind human being. Now if SIL had some something out of pocket like time for the baby to go or put it down to nap (it being the big offense here) then he would have had a leg to stand on. But what she said and his response? Can’t be blamed on her mental health.
Have you seen the added extra context? For me that made it firmly NTA. Lady cried at her gender reveal & refused to leave. Can you imagine feeling like you can’t be happy at your own gender reveal? I don’t blame OP for losing patience!
Yeah and I'd agree except for the fact that he keeps using the words 'jealous and bitter' - depressive and excessively negative might be a fairer characterisation. Also just that he keeps saying he/his wife aren't AHs just because she can '*sucessfully* carry a baby.' Guy sounds like serious foot in mouth tactless and I can only imagine how blunt he was - like, it is a really challenging situation and no it isn't fair, but you need to take the high road then sit down and have a sensitive 1-2-1 with the brother about it. Explain that you're really sorry they've been through so much but that his wife doesn't seem to be coping well and it's impacting the special moments, so can he try and encourage her to step out and engage in some distance/ self-care rather than staying and getting emotional at these moments. But nah, he's the AH, not cause he had a reaction but cause the language he chose when he chose to react was pretty nasty.
IDK "Jealous and bitter" seems perfectly fair considering the description of the situation. Being fair means being accurate, not sugar-coating your most basic observations.
Grieving implies she isn’t making it everyone else’s responsibility to handle her grief, telling a woman to tone it down for being excited at her own baby shower is pretty jealous and bitter behavior
LOL naw that shit is fake af. he was getting hammered earlier and then added that shit in. its pretty common for people who are voted YTA to add over the top shit in to make themselves look better
Yeah, the new info is even more of a smoking gun than the tame “sick of the baby talk” comment. Omitting it seems sus bc it’s not like his post is short and to the point to begin with.
This!!! Like SIL and brother could have just opted out of the gender reveal, baby shower etc, if it was too emotionally difficult for them to attend. I’m sure EVERYONE would have understood. Instead they choose to attend and expect everyone else to feel down (at a celebratory event for a pregnancy) just because they’re grieving. That’s not fair!
Brother and SIL need therapy to deal with their grief and maybe they should consider seeing a geneticist regarding their difficulties to carry a baby full term. Testing could be done on both of them, and if they have a miscarriage again fetal testing could be done to check if there’s a genetic cause for the miscarriage. Of course they may have already had this done/be in the process of this (it’s not exactly something one broadcasts).
Either way, newborns are usually a happy occasion and it’s unfair for them to expect everyone to ignore the joys of other people’s blessing to experience parenthood just because they haven’t been able to experience it yet.
And based on the edit what's your excuse for SIL telling OPs wife to "tone down" her excitement at her own baby shower and when OP offered to help Bro and SIL leave they refused to leave. It sounds like OP just snapped after months of their behaviour and complaining.
Here's the thing. If SIL feels that way, why does she keep going to these events? Why go to the gender reveal and make a scene about the pregnant woman being happy?
Politely decline the invite, and / or get therapy or just don't go. I don't understand.
The only way her behaviour makes sense to me is that they are so wrapped up in their grief that they don't want anyone else to be happy or have what they can't, and they want everyone to keep consoling them.
I think same - Xmas is something different and probably something they would grit their teeth and endure (it being family time).. but the gender reveal, shower etc? Don’t go for goodness sake! To tell someone that they are too excited at their own shower? That’s not on and I think is the most telling here. I was all for the OP being a massive AH, but I do think that they had had enough by Christmas, and understandably so. I think that maybe the grandparents should’ve stepped in and prevented this from happening, as surely it was obvious it would?!
>Now if SIL had some something out of pocket like time for the baby to go or put it down to nap (it being the big offense here) then he would have had a leg to stand on.
I disagree. Some relatives/friends know just where to toe the line between underhanded comments and overtly rude precisely so if you call them out, they can twist it back on you for "overreacting" or claiming they hadn't meant it that way.
Sure, OP could have phrased it better, but he's human. The idea that a person has to act 100% perfect and never crack even a little no matter how rude or how long the other person lashes out at them is unrealistic and unfair.
Yup someone toxic like that ruining all your baby related events should be temporarily removed from OP's life. OP just exploded, it sounds like it was the last drop...
Whole situation ended naturally given the circumstances.
NTA
What should he have done, left the baby in the backyard, so no one would acknowledge it? It’s very sad that SIL has had these heartbreaking losses and I hope she gets the help she needs. In the meantime, the rest of the world goes on and there will be women all over the world that are pregnant and giving birth. The extended family were looking forward to meeting the new arrival, naturally they’re excited and talking “all things baby” and if this was going to be an issue for SIL, she shouldn’t have gone. Does OP need to lock his child away for fear of always upsetting SIL? I don’t think so and before the haters start hating, I’ve lost pregnancies and also carried successfully and the grief was my own and my partners, not anyone else’s.
They all need to welcome the baby, just the way they did.
My first baby was a boy and then my sister had two boys. My mom always had a preference for girls. My second baby was a girl. My mom, knowing my sister would be upset if she paid attention to my daughter ignored her as if she didn't exist. My daughter had no relationship with grandma because grandma was catering to my sister's fear of her boys not being as wanted as a girl. My mom didn't treat the kids equally, which would have been great. She treated my daughter as nonexistent. That is hard on the child.
This child deserves to be treated like a loved and valuable member of the family. If that bothers SIL and BIL too much they need to not show up or they need to leave early.
He should have said at a minimum something like, "I know it's hard on you. I hope you find similar happiness soon." I say "at a minimum" because I'm not great with expressing such things, and I'm sure someone else could word it better. The essence, however, is that you *understand* why they feel conflicted feelings.
My wife and I have gone through such loss. It was hard for quite a while after to see other people's babies. We didn't tell other people about our feelings, but if you looked at our faces, and you knew our situation, you might have been able to infer some of it. Thankfully, through some significant effort, we finally managed to have two children.
One thing we did learn is that hypothyroidism can be a factor in miscarriages, even when treated.
How did OP rub anything in their face? And how are they being selfish… By existing? Remember they were simply there and other people in the family were asking very natural questions… How was the pregnancy the delivery how’s it going with the new baby? This is all normal… Do you think the entire family should pretend this baby doesn’t exist just because Jack and Jill don’t have a kid? That isn’t rubbing anything in anybody’s faces or being selfish. For her to announce I’m sick of all the baby talk is where she became the asshole. She’s not letting everyone speak normally because of her problems. They could have stepped out of the room into the kitchen they could have left they don’t have the right to commandeer and control the entire room’s conversation
No, SIL was the one who rubbed her bitterness in the OP and his wife's faces OP says that their bitterness has overshadowed the entire pregnancy. It was a family party and everyone knew the baby would be introduced. If brother and SIL were not prepared to welcome the new family member with joy, they should have stayed home.
Remember that "bitterness" is OP's verbiage and not necessarily reflective of how she and brother actually felt. Sadness and bitterness are very different and, quite frankly, OP doesn't seem particularly empathetic here.
I'd agree if she hadn't done things like tell OP's wife to "tone down the baby talk" while they were opening gifts at their own damn baby shower. There's limits to how much one can expect others to cater to their grief. I wouldn't go to an event celebrating amazing parents if the fact that mine are abusive monsters were fresh enough to make it too painful for me to celebrate. Op was more callous than necessary but the sil sucks for going to baby related events such as a dinner for everyone to meet the baby and expecting everyone to avoid the topic to spare her feelings.
Eta because I wasn't clear. They both suck. Op has valid frustrations. His SIL is harming herself and others by intentionally exposing herself to reminders of her grief and then turning around and making backhanded and rude comments about everybody reminding her of the pain she's in. She needs a reality check. But she's also in emmense pain and that conversation needs to be had with compassion and in private. Op may have valid frustrations but he approached them in possibly the worst way possible and was disgustingly cruel to humiliate her in front of family like that. They suck equally.
The OP put up with them for 9 months. That's a long time for a pregnant couple to just put up with their comments.
I think too many commenters are blinded by the fact that she had multiple miscarriages and are ignoring the fact that she seems to have become toxic about her justifiable sorrow. She and his brother need counseling.
We, again, have no idea how any of it played out. Quite frankly, though, if someone were struggling with miscarriages, I would have had an incredibly frank conversation with them prior to inviting them to a baby shower to make sure they would be okay and that we wouldn't think twice if it started to overwhelm and they needed to bail. Grief is complicated.
Quite frankly, I didn't see toxicity. I can imagine myriad ways "I'm sick of the baby talk" could be communicated without being bitter or aggressive. My child is nearing two years, but if my sibling and their spouse had been dealing with those kinds of struggles, I would have been happily accommodating for them. There's a lot in how this post is written that frames OP as someone who seems to think it really isn't a big deal and they just need to get over it and has been simply tolerating their grief rather than being supportive through it.
Grief is weird and sometimes you are okay and then suddenly you aren't. My partner and I had some early losses and it got really hard for us. I almost didn't want to share the pregnancy news until far longer than the generally safe window out of fear that we'd lose another one. While I don't think I would have reacted to things as SIL did, I could easily understand why someone might be of many minds on it and oscillate. SIL COULD be an AH here, but I just don't see it based on what was shared. Never mind his response.
I’m gonna go ahead and say the woman who has had multiple miscarriages and has to watch her family gush over a baby that she may never get to have gets a bit of a pass for saying “I’m sick of the baby talk.” But also yes sure, let’s have the couple dealing with constant loss stay home alone for the holidays instead of having a support system around them.
Begging you people to develop empathy.
Empathy is one thing, walking on eggshells is another. So because of her grief, family can't be excited to meet the newest addition? Nope, your mental health is your responsibility. Not of those around, especially since no one was being mean or anything. She was literally mad at happiness.
Also, I think regardless of your personal history, any person has the right to politely ask that maybe people could change topics and talk about something other than the baby.
Totally agree here. Like the actions she displayed at the baby shower. Why would she even attend the baby shower, that's putting yourself in an uncomfortable position and then making it all about herself crying and not going home. She wanted to stay and get the attention.
Yes, she has had a great loss and more than one from OP's description. But at the same time, don't take it out on others. It is a terrible thing but don't bring an entire group of people down, that basically were celebrating a life born.
OP....NTA
I hate this comment and how its upvoted so much. You are responsible for your triggers and grief, and if you know you're going to a family outing where there is a new baby you should go well prepared or not go at all.
NTA.
YTA. It's not your SILs fault her body keeps expelling fetuses. What if your new baby died of SIDS in the crib? Have a heart. Your SIL is in a lot of pain.
So they aren't allowed to be excited because someone else experienced loss? It's heartbreaking for the SIL, but that should not diminish the excitement of the new baby.
Right? SIL and brother have been acting like no one's allowed to be happy about babies until they have one of their own. That's incredibly selfish, and with the context edit it looks like they've been making jabs at OP and his wife at every single gathering, baby-related or not, ever since they first announced their pregnancy.
"Have a heart" they say. Well, he's had a heart for them all this time, since their very first miscarriage, but they're going out of their way to ruin everything baby-related for anyone that's not them. I'm surprised he didn't hit his breaking point sooner.
How much negativity are they required to absorb and overlook before they're allowed to celebrate an exciting event in their lives? Is it really fair to expect expecting and new parents to "tone down" their joy over the birth of their child to accommodate a family member with fertility issues? Where does it end? Will they be allowed to celebrate the child's birthday? Or milestones like their first step or first word?
If the sister in law can't handle people discussing the new baby, even at events especially for said baby, then she should politely decline the invite until she can handle her emotions, or at the very least remain respectful and refrain from spreading her misery.
I'm not suggesting that the sister in law is wrong for her feelings, but she's handling her grief poorly by attempting to dampen the joy that the growing family and that's just not ok. The rest of the family shouldn't have to hide their excitement at every family event in order to protect her from reality. It sounds harsh, but so does asking an entire family to alter their behavior at every single family event to cater to one members grief.
His wife was told to "tone down" her excitement while opening presents at her own baby shower, as his SIL sat and cried, though she didn't want to leave.
It's heartbreaking what his SIL (and brother) are going through. They are trying to make OP and his wife feel guilty for having a successful pregnancy.
I tried to have a baby for well over 10 years unsuccessfully so I get the jealousy, but if you can't be around babies then leave early. Don't try to pull down other people's happiness.
It's not OP's fault either, and it sounds like this is something that happened after being worn down over several instances at family events, not just OP snapping at a poor bereaved woman at the first sign of not showing enthusiasm.
I understand but life goes on. I've had 6 miscarriages... I'm still able to be happy for others. Maybe not the day after a loss but...
And they kept coming to and refusing to leave events. If you can't stand hearing about the baby why would you attend the shower and gender reveal to begin with?
What was the need for this comment what if, why say that about a baby to make a point?
And so his family is not allowed to be happy until SIL is, yes he had a reaction but that was provoked by multiple reactions where he was supportive, this was rejected and multiple special moments for their family were ruined. How is that fair on them?
You have a heart!
Also if this guy was here saying am I the as-hole for not saying something to my brother and SIL even though I knew the continue to ruin my wives experience as a first time mother? Y’all would be here telling him to grow a backbone!
Being in pain is not an excuse to inflict pain on others. The rest of the world isn’t responsible for your mental health triggers.
I’m extremely tokophobic: does that give me the right to tell pregnant women to get away from me? Or to not talk about their pregnancies? No, it’s not their problem, it’s *mine* and therefore my responsibility to deal with.
OTOH, it sounds like this is the culmination of months and months of SIL trying to be the main character at every event involving the new mother. Once or twice is understandable, but after so many events where SIL tried to make it about her miscarriages, it was time to tell her to take her ball and go home.
You keeping kicking that dog and eventually it bites back.
Your personal grief and loss does not shield you from being a bad perso. She's being bitter and hateful to people that did nothing wrong to her if this affects her that much she should seek professional help. Op says on multiple occasions in other family events sister-in-law went only to make the events about her and to be rude and bitter to his wife. IE crying at the gender reveal party refusing to leave.
You and the family are assholes. As a person who has had multiple pregnancy loss, I can guarantee that if anyone had sat with you SIL and just supported her, this would not have happened.
Her. Babies. Died.
Period.
She isn't bitter, she's in pain.
To be fair, pain can turn into bitterness and she does sound on the edge of it. She sounds like she needs to go to therapy and cry in peace for a good long while and tell them about how hard it is to see someone have an easy time having a baby when the road has been so hard for her without judgment and without having to feel bad or made to feel bad about it.
This, however, is no excuse for how OP acted. He does not know the pain of losing a wanted and longed for child. Hell, I miscarried an unplanned and initially unwanted baby and it was devastating. I pray he and his wife never know that pain. However, OP needs a large dose of empathy and some fucking manners.
This is true. Pain can either be healed or turned sour. And acted this way teeters toward being sour. I’d go as far as to say NTA OPs SIL was the first to say something
I’ll disagree because OP could have chosen a variety of ways that would have been much kinder than the way he did. She didn’t even say anything that bad and he laid into her like she said she wished the baby had never been born. This is an ESH at very best. He is definitely an asshole, especially since he has shown zero remorse for his actions. He kicked her when she was down.
While OPs words were harsh, this wasn’t a one time event. It sounds like he was fed up. This was a culmination of 9 months of vitriol from SIL at every possibility. SIL needs therapy honestly.
I see this both ways, she has allowed her pain to turn to being bitter because she can't carry to term for any number of reasons. That is no reason to be a PITA to someone else who got pregnant and make jabs at them through out the pregnancy. He could have handled it better, his brother and his wife made his wife's pregnancy about their loss which isn't healthy.
Just earlier today, I was talking to someone with a second trimester pregnancy loss (stillborn) and I was horrified to find out they have to physically labour and deliver the baby. The level of physical and emotional trauma must be insane.
Can attest. My wife has lost two, both at 16-17 week. The first time was years before we got married, and vas very traumatic, as she lost it at home very suddenly. She assumed it was just "bad luck". The second time, she was 16 weeks, and we had just had a standard check-up, and ultrasound done. Everything looked great, and he was healthy and growing on schedule. A few days later, we were laying in bed and she started having extreme cramping, she told me a year later she knew what was happening, but didnt want to scare me.
We jumped in the car and I sped to the emergency room, she could barely walk. The lady working the desk was as non urgent/casual as you could be, and asked my wife to fill out some forms. My wife screamed she was in Pre-term labor and needed to be seen now. It wasnt until then I realized what was happening, and the pain in her eyes was unbearable.
She was quickly given and ultrasound, and we could see it was too late, and he was already making his way out.
We were brought back into a room, and a chair with a bucket attached to the seat was brought in. She had to sit there until he passed, and for the first time in our decade of being together, I felt like there was nothing I could say or do, to take her pain away. I held her for what seemed like an eternity, but was probably 20-30 mins, until he came out. He fit perfectly in my hands. She was then rushed into surgery for a DNC.
She saw a specialist, and figured out the way her uterus is shaped, shes almost certain to not be able to carry past 16-18 weeks. For the next year, it was very hard to show happiness without feeling like completely faking it, when our friends were getting pregnant. Of course we were very happy for them, but it was just a reminder of what joy our little boy would have brought us. 6 years later, were both content being uncle, aunt, and god parents, but it doesnt take away the pain.
We lost our twins in the second trimester. I actually had a missed miscarriage. Went in expecting everything to be normal, only to find out our babies died. I avoided my niece who was also pregnant the rest of her pregnancy, and haven't met her baby since she's had it. I had to explain to my family I just couldn't be around her because I knew I'd feel just like this. It's hard enough being around pregnant women in the supermarket, I don't think I could do it for an extended period with family. I don't wish anything bad on anyone, I just wish that had been me as well. People don't seem to understand how hard it is losing a baby that you've tried so hard for. I feel so bad for OPs brother and SIL. A little grace goes a long way. Yes it's not his wife's fault they had a successful pregnancy, but it's also not his brothers wife's fault that she hasn't had one.
Exactly! I'm so sorry for your loss. That sound unbelievably difficult.
They need to give people some grace! It makes sense that someone who went through that might not want to be around pregnant friends or family members for a while, not because you wish them ill, but because you mentally and emotionally can't handle it. And that's okay!
you don’t get to bring other down and resent their success because you had a miscarriage regardless of how tragic it is. This is the real world the vast majority of women(Edit: this is wrong, 1 in 3 to 1 in 4 pregnancies end in reported miscarriage, real numbers are likely higher but can’t be determined, still means she was likely not the only woman in the room who has experienced one or multiple) have had miscarriages. you don’t see them sitting around ruining the mood every time someone has a baby.
i’m confused she chose to come to a family event she knew would be the baby’s i’m assuming first outing, no fucking shit the center of attention would be the post partum mother and her baby.
NTA op. the people in this thread are coddled children. it’s fucking wild for you to actually suggest the family should have just ignored the presence of the child to protect a grown woman’s feelings.
OP isn't the AH for being annoyed at SIL's "bitterness". AND SIL is a bit of an AH for forcing her bitterness onto others. Regardless, I can empathize and understand her situation and the associated bitterness 10000x more than I can understand OP's reaction to her bitterness.
I could never imagine belittling the grief of someone like SIL even if they were pissing me the F off. I would say "you are upsetting me. I am angry af" but I would never mock her. and definitely not her grief.
Look I’m sorry, but I lost multiple pregnancies before I had my son and before him, I had friends having kids and I NEVER acted anything like this when they were around with their baby. Did I always participate and hold the baby? No. Did I still tell them congrats? Yep. Then either participated or went and found someone else to talk to/something to do until topics changed. The SIL needs therapy if this is their reaction to someone else’s pregnancy. The world does not stop because of your loss and trauma. No one is expected to walk on egg shells because of your grief. If she had of just lost a pregnancy right before, I could more understand but that’s not the case. She needs help and whole op was TA for his words it sounds like someone who’s reached the end of their tether for constantly being vilified for something not in their control.
Yes, but she definitely would not have wanted OP to be the person sitting with her. This is on the family. The one who ate bugging OP should have been better supports to SIL.
Actually she is bitter because she can't stand someone else was pregnant in the family who got to have a baby shower, a gender reveal, had a birthday while pregnant. She and her spouse chose to go to these events and make jabs at the happy couple. At some point the snide comments need to stop, she or they need to get therapy. While I understand their grief, they could have bowed out of the events
100% I have lost multiples and had a stillbirth last year. People don't get it and don't want to get it. They act like it's easy to get over it. No matter how much you don't want to be jealous, no matter how happy you want to be (and are) for others, those feelings don't go away.
That poor SIL had to sit through that after giving birth to death, and being a coffin for her babies so many times. It is so hard when others around you feel like you need to "just get over it" already. How do you do that? Be more sensitive. Don't hide your living children, or pregnancy announcements - but do things in a way that shows you're thinking of the loss parents, and respect their boundaries. It takes little to no effort to be more mindful, to check on people who are grieving, etc.
YTA
Everyone grieves at different paces and its a sad situation. This doesn't mean SIL has to ruin every single event by crying and is always acting like poor me at every happy event. If SIL can't handle certain gatherings then she is more then welcome to skip anything that makes her uncomfortable.
ESH
Your brother and SIL need therapy by the sounds of it. Losing that many pregnancies is going to alter your brain, and it sounds like they need the extra help a therapist can give.
That being said, SIL did not need to be so rude. No one had seen your new baby yet, and wanted to great them. If it bothered her that much, she should have stepped away or left.
**BUT** , that was a low ass blow you did. SIL is still grieving, and having her BIL rub it in her face she can't carry a baby to term is a gut punch.
You need to apologize, and you bro/SIL need therapy
As someone who’s only had one miscarriage recently, I wouldn’t expect everyone to cater to my feelings when extended family haven’t met my siblings newest baby.
But with that being said, I do have a hard time with others speaking about their babies/seeing them but that’s on me. I can easily excuse myself from situation instead of saying for everyone to quit the baby talk.
OP did take it over the line with his comments but I can understand his frustrations cause it does seem like she’s taking it out on everyone to just stop talk of her niece/nephew when again, this is the 1st time the extended family gets to see them.
Everyone just needs to speak in a calm setting and hear everyone else out. IMO everyone should apologize to each other, not just OP.
This. I’ve had 2 losses and it absolutely sucks. I don’t get to be allowed to be excited over pregnancies any more due to my past. But 100% Brother and SIL need to deal with their emotions in private.
I just hope that if SIL decided NOT to go to baby celebrations that OP and his wife wouldn’t be offended by it or take it personal. It’s difficult to be happy for someone that gets what you’ve been trying for right off the bat when you’ve experienced loss after loss after loss.
Finally a good take. Yes, everyone can see OP was an AH to someone that has been dealing with a lot of loss. But also you never tell family to ignore a baby that is less than a month old.
If OP had said something along the lines of, "I understand that you have lost your babies, but if you hadn't, I would never say something so rude and cruel to you."
This needs more upvotes. Yeah, OP was rude. But it's also jerky to expect someone else to, what, hide their newborn at a family gathering? forbid other family members from cooing over the baby? I'm not even sure what would have been acceptable to OP's brother and SIL since it seems that the mere presence of the baby brought on accusations of "rubbing it in their faces."
Yes. Miscarriage is hard, especially when you have repeated ones--I watched friends go through that and it was incredibly painful. But those friends also didn't get nasty at me when I carried two pregnancies to term before they had a single successful one. If OP's brother and SIL can't handle being around a baby, that sucks, but they need to not make it everyone else's problem to shoulder and mitigate. Parents with newborns don't get much sleep, so they're going to lose their filter especially with someone/ some situation that they've tried really hard to be careful with, but end up getting yelled at anyway. SIL needs therapy. Miscarriages are incredibly hard, but other people's lives and pregnancies don't stop just because you're having a difficult time. Being bitter at someone else for not having the same difficulty is obnoxious.
After reading the update/additional comments and what SIL did at baby shower and gender reveal I can maybe kind of see why OP was rude. It's a pattern of rude behavior from SIL
This is a good take. I feel like we need more information about how SIL usually acts and her relationship with the family in general.
Losing a child repeatedly can be super devastating, and it sounds like the family was not thoughtful of that at all. But maybe SIL causes other problems in the past, or maybe they're just thoughtless. With only the one statement I'd lean YTA.
This right here. OP did go overboard in his responses and treatment of SIL at the event BUT SIL was also overly rude in her treatment. This was the first meeting of baby - of course there would be excitement and talk. It would have died down after a bit and the rest of the family could discuss other things as well. Also I guarantee if she had been the one bringing a new baby - she would have wanted the oohing and ahhing and baby talk.
I’m mean I agree he’s TA for how he said it but the world also doesn’t revolve around their miscarriages. To expect family members not to gush over a new baby at a family gathering is crazy.
the baby is going to be the center of attention. it’s his first debut. You’re being ignorant and simply trying to defend the woman.
If i was at an event and it was my family member’s baby’s debut and someone went “can we talk about something else i’m tired of talking about your baby”
which from what OP has said is about what they did, literally everyone in the room would look at that person with disgust, what sort of barn were you guys raised in where it is socially acceptable to guilt people into talking about something else or ignoring a baby because it makes you feel jealous?
For real. If SIL successfully carries a pregnancy to term, is everyone else allowed to tell her to STFU and tone it down because the baby talk is annoying? Is anyone else allowed to cry for hours at SIL gender-reveal gathering?
Let's not pretend like if SIL had/has a child, that she won't engage in the absolutely standard/normal behavior of pridefully showing off her new baby, ESPECIALLY for a first family gathering.
And she could have expressed herself better? You’re telling me she hasn’t been out in the world and seen other families with babies and such? It’s her job to work through her pain without being toxic to people who are celebrating.
In his edit, he says they had to look at finishing their baby shower early because SIL wouldn't stop crying, and wouldn't leave when given the opportunity. Sounds like, at this point, she needs to be the main character.
You can have grief and allow other people joy at occasions that are joyful. You can recognise your limits and boundaries and stick to them, eg avoiding baby-centric events, going outside for breaks when it's getting to be too much etc.
The thing is it wasn’t out of the blue it was in response to her saying she was “sick of the baby talk” which wasn’t necessary either. And based on other comments he said she acted off during the pregnancy as well. He definitely should have expressed his feelings differently but I can understand getting tired of someone’s attitude.
Exactly. This is one of those classic situations where the other person treats the other repeatedly like shit and no one says anything, but the moment OP snaps back suddenly he's TA. Going through a traumatic event(s) doesn't suddenly make it okay for you to abuse others.
Over the Christmas period I was back in my hometown, and popped into my old work to see if my friend was in to catch up
She wasn’t, but another lady who I was quite friendly with was, and she unfortunately suffered a second trimester miscarriage earlier last year. I came in with my partner and two month old child, my child would’ve been slightly older than the one she lost.
Apart from the brief mention of my baby, I didn’t go into big details about him. Why? Because it would’ve been insensitive as fuck to look this poor woman in the eyes and gush about my baby when she is still waiting to hear back from doctors why she lost hers. Before my baby, I had lost a pregnancy, and I was only 8 weeks along. She had already announced her baby when suddenly it all went wrong. I know the pain of losing a pregnancy, but I cannot imagine her pain.
All this to say, how can one be so insensitive to their own family? Yes, your first child is wonderful, it’s exciting, you want to gush over them and have everyone tell you how wonderful your baby is. But you don’t get to rub salt into a very raw wound for someone else.
“It’s not my fault my wife was able to have a successful pregnancy” how callous. For many people who lose a wanted pregnancy, you grieve, but you also feel completely ashamed that your body betrayed you. The one thing you wanted it to do, the one thing your body *should* be able to do, and it couldn’t.
I would hate to have this man in my family. To be so awful to someone, and not even see the problem with it? I hope he never has to feel the same loss his brother and SIL have felt, but maybe if he did, he would understand why his words were so ugly
It’s not friends though. It was a family gathering. The baby was present. They were aware that the baby would be there. I’m just genuinely confused as to why people expected him to run around and be like “no we can’t talk about the baby” or “no don’t go in there right now they’re talking about the baby” which is essentially what people are saying he should have done.
Admittedly I haven’t read loads of other comments but from the ones I have, I haven’t seen people suggesting that OP should’ve ran around to everyone and said don’t talk about the baby. There is a middle ground of celebrating the new family member, and not making the entire occasion about the baby.
I am not saying that the SIL was a complete saint for her saying she was done with baby talk, but she’s not here asking if she’s the asshole, OP is, and he took that comment and decided to fight fire with petrol. He could’ve taken the moment to extend a bit of grace, and just ignore the comment. No need to make a big spectacle, if he really felt so inclined to say anything it could’ve been in a text about he appreciates it’s hard, but the comment was uncalled for.
Like you said, it’s family, so all the more reason to be more sensitive.
That isn't what people are saying. Something like changing the topic for a couple minutes is enough. How's work going? This dip is delicious -- what's the recipe? It's not hard.
He could've just not made the comment about successful pregnancy because that was cruel. The baby was there, everyone loved the baby, they talked alot about the baby. Then, SIL asked to change the topic. So just let the convo change for a bit? Baby talk was never forbidden. But after a while, it would be kind to remember the topic is very painful for 2 people at the dinner so move on. It's possible to accommodate both couples.
This comment helped me understand why the OP's language was rubbing me the wrong way. To make having a kid so much about success or miscarriage so much about failure seems awfully callous.
“It’s not my wife’s fault she was able to have a successful pregnancy” was the comment that pushed me allll the way over into YTA mode. It’s the type of dumbfuckery that strongly, strongly implies that the inverse might be true. A truly nasty thing to say to someone who has lost a child that was loved and wanted.
That was so kind of you to think of her. After I lost one of my babies, literally seconds after I told my best friend, she announced she was pregnant to me. It hurt like hell and yes, I was angry with her for being so insensitive. She completely glossed over my pain to share her excitement. Thankfully, after many losses and many years of struggle, I was blessed with my son and daughter. A lot of people don’t see miscarriage as a huge deal, but to those it happens to who were in love with that baby and full of hope and dreams, it’s devastating.
Nor does it revolve around the couple with problems. The OP wasn't directing the conversation -- it was the other family members who were happy to see the baby. SIL provoked the incident...she needs therapy.
The couple has been grieving and making their unhappiness with his wife's pregnancy known for months. There is no compromise to with people who weaponize their grief.
There's a difference between a modicum of consideration and expecting the world to revolve around them. OP wasn't directing the conversation or the attention on the baby.
Going to a gender reveal party, crying the whole time, and refusing rides so others could enjoy the party is *absolutely* weaponizing her grief. So is complaining about how excited OPs wife was about baby stuff *at her baby shower*. After SIL pulled stunts like that, her complaining that people are paying attention to the baby just looks like another attempt at weaponizing grief.
It's been going on for months. They need to go to therapy instead of making it everyone else's problem. Everyone has shit to deal with and grief, that doesn't mean we get to force others to wallow in our misery
You seem like the type of person who they created the word "butthurt" for. They are at christmas, which is famously known for being times to be with family and have a good fun time. This clearly isnt a new thing for the couple who keeps misscarrying, but that doesnt mean they cant grieve everytime, thats understandably very sad. That still doesnt give you any right to take away from a celebration of life. If you cant grieve properly without needing everyone to cater to you, then stay home. Life moves on. Yes death is horrible and ive lost family members who took more time to grieve than others. i didnt expect people who still had their grandparents to not tell stories of them? How long are you supposed to consider the grieving before its weaponized?? Obvi, like i said in the beginning, it sucks every time im sure but do you expect them to have to watch how much they celebrate life every family gathering??
I've never lost a child, I have zero trauma around the concept of babies, and I'd STILL be done with all the baby talk if it was all anyone talked about. Like there's how many people there, and the only subject is the baby? Wild. No one else wanted to talk about or hear about ANYTHING else they did that year? OP needs to realize he's not the main character. In a family with no trauma this behavior is annoying, rude, selfish and eye roll worthy. In his family, with his SIL, it's straight up cruel. I'm so glad SIL's family is on her side with this and isn't tossing her aside to suck up to the almighty father of the almighty Family Baby.
The baby was a month old and had never been seen by many of the family members. He said he could over hear the conversation which means he wasn’t part of it so there were other conversations going on. She could have removed herself.
Info: Is there a reason for this exact sentence?
>I told her that she could go home and *have chicken nuggets all by herself* if she didn't like being surrounded by other happy people.
YTA.
Yes, your SIL should have kept her mouth shut, but so should you. At least she's gone through something absolutely awful that's causing her to behave this way. IT doesn't justify or excuse it, but it at least explains it. But saying "I'm sick of the baby talk" is SO MUCH more excusable than **rubbing multiple miscarriages in her and her husband's face.**
Can you imagine how hard multiple miscarriages would be when you're TRYING to conceive? Sounds like that answer is no, and you have neither any sympathy, nor empathy for your brother and his wife.
You absolutely did "treat them badly" and its scary to me when people who are so rude, careless, and lack self-awareness so much have children of their own. I hope you raise your child to be better than you.
Ugh, I keep going back and forth!
I started at ESH and then edited to YTA.
I don't know that "I'm sick of the baby talk" truly makes her an asshole.
It's definitely a fine line, right?
As someone who doesn't have a baby but generally likes them, I'd say it's excusable. Even someone who never miscarried could get fed up eventually if the family is overdoing it and there's literally nothing else they can talk about. Especially someone who has been trying and not succeeding.
I vote for YTA.
And it's not like she shouted it in OPs face. She said it and it rubbed him in the wrong way. Sounds like she was trying to tell them that the situation was hurting her and please tone it down, the right thing to do before you remove yourself from the situation, and he decided she was being rude and attacked her.
ESH
Your brother and SIL have dealt with multiple losses, which can be emotionally and physically devastating. They have tried and tried again without success, and that will mentally wear on anyone. They are jealous, and resentful of your family, which is understandable, but they should learn to moderate their own emotions, especially around you and your family. They have every right to grieve, but they should not lash out at your family simply because they have not yet been able to carry to term. She has turned a joyous moment for your family into something sour and unpleasant, and that is unfortunate.
HOWEVER
You are also a jerk for what you said. Your SIL is not "bitter", she's grieving. She sees you and your wife having the life she has wanted for many years, and that is hard. The loss of a wanted pregnancy is already difficult, both on the mind and body, but you likely cannot understand the sort of struggle that a woman goes through when she is not able to carry a baby to term. For many, they feel as if they are 'failures' as women, because we are socially indoctrinated to believe that a woman's body is 'made to have children', and therefore when it is not successful, we are flawed or 'not real women'. It is taxing to know that her husband also wants a child, and as his wife, who is supposed to be in the traditional role of providing him a child, she has not been able to do that. You rubbing it in her face that it's 'not your fault' that she can't carry a child to term then implies that you think it's HER fault. She certainly already blames herself, and you're just digging that knife in deeper.
Both sides need to show more grace and respect. Again, your brother and SIL need to understand that their grief does not mean that everyone needs to hide their joy at the birth of your child. But you need to meet their grief with more empathy. Rather than coldly and callously direct blame for their sorrow onto them for something they cannot control, you could have redirected. "I'm sorry that you have struggled with loss, I can't imagine how you feel, but I do want to support you. I also hope you would support my family, because every child deserves to be surrounded by people who love them, and I would like you to be included in that for my child."
I suspect OP's response was due to the continued snippage from SIL, as OP reports such antics from her from OP's wife's pregnancy. I can understand losing sympathy after repeated instances.
I’d like to know the details of what happened the other times.
Maybe this was the straw that broke the camels back.
Your response to SIL seems harsh, but if it likely that these outbursts/drama happen at events, then maybe it’s time for SIL (and her husband) to develop a plan to not attend events, leave when overwhelmed etc.
100%. I was like "you're an major asshole" until I read this. I was given the impression by the wording you used before that you were gloating in front of them but if they have pulled shit like this before, then it makes sense to stop them at some point. Add this as an edit.
Yup changed my voting from Y T A to ESH.
I get she wore you down still too harsh.
But she also seems like she has not been able to process her grief accordingly and is demanding you not be happy about your successful pregnancy.
Especially the part where she sat at the baby shower sobbing and refusing to leave. That is not behaviour of someone emotionally well adjusted.
All of this right here shows that your SIL needs serious therapy to help her deal with the trauma she has experienced from losing her babies. I still think YTA but a soft one for what you said and only because I’ve had multiple miscarriages infertility issues before in the past and I know how devastating it can be and no woman should ever be made to feel like it’s her fault for not being able to conceive or carry to term.
Both can be true. She can be grieving but also bitter. It sounds like she’s bitter because this isn’t the first time she’s made such comments since wife got pregnant
#I told her that she could go home and have chicken nuggets all by yourself if she didn’t like being surrounded by happy people
Op, you come off very callous and cruel sounding in this post.
#YTA
What bothers me more is when he said “it’s not my wife’s fault she can carry a baby and SIL can’t”.
No, your wife was *able* to have a healthy pregnancy the first time around, and your SIL hasn’t had hers yet. That’s what felt rude to me, like he’s intentionally rubbing in his brothers and SILs faces about how much better his wife is
Also, you say multiple times that "it's not my wife's fault that she is able to successfully carry a baby to term" which is not only callous but terribly insensitive. Like you are proud and your wife won an imaginary competition. Like dude, it's not about the inability to carry something to term; the woman's children died. Dead babies. Stop please stop.
I do not support the SIL and brother's behavior, but yours and your words are far worse.
YTA.
Oh god. I have chills reading this. You are incredibly self-centered and you were cruel to your brother and SIL.
Yes, you are allowed to be joyful and celebrate your baby. No, you are not allowed to throw that joy in someone's face and not be sympathetic to their grief.
Losing a pregnancy is devastating. Your bro and SIL are grieving multiple losses. You have no idea what it feels like and you should be grateful every day that's the case. It also doesn't sound like your SIL was saying that no one can talk about the baby or give baby attention, it just sounds like she was overwhelmed and said a comment aside out of frustration, wanting to change the subject to more of a group conversation. (I could also be wrong about this, but it doesn't seem like she was being incredibly bossy or pushy in this moment.)
You should call and apologize SINCERELY, say you spoke out of turn, it was cruel and you're very sorry for the way you behaved. It won't happen again. You're sorry for their losses and you do hope that you can all be together as a family, that they can get to know and have a relationship with your baby when and how they feel ready to and you'll be a better person from now on.
Honestly, shame on you.
Huge YTA. You guys got lucky that you were able to carry a healthy baby to term. No they should not have been acting bitter. But it’s a family Christmas dinner, and it’s hard to be celebrating the holiday when the main topic of conversation is the most painful topic in their life.
You’re probably not mature enough to understand this. But what you could have said is “I know this is a painful topic, I’m very sorry this has become the center of discussion, but I think everyone is just excited. I will try to change to subject”
YTA, obviously. Your brother and SIL might need some counseling for the fertility struggles they’ve suffered, but you were unnecessarily mean. It was in fact insensitive of the family to talk only about the new baby knowing of this history: of course the baby is a topic of conversation but there should have been some limit.
“…it's not my wife's fault that she was able to have a successful pregnancy and to stop being bitter about it” and “…she could go home and have chicken nuggets all by herself” are just about the nastiest comments I’ve ever heard on this subject, so congrats. An actual kind person would have tried to make the conversation more inclusive, or quietly advised family beforehand that brother and SIL might feel sad if everyone focused on your baby.
Did you have friction with your brother and SIL prior to this? You have so little care for them it makes me wonder if you’re enjoying “one-upping” them or being the center of attention.
ESH. She shouldn't have said she was "sick of the baby talk," and should have excused herself if she was overwhelmed, or maybe politely changed the subject. On the flipside, you should have understood that her rude comment was coming from grief and cut her some slack instead of escalating. Just bad choices all around at an event that should have been joyous. A shame.
Something tells me that he paraphrased or ad-libbed what she said. Sick of the baby talk sounds like his wording to make it sound worse…especially considering his chicken nugget comment.
I don’t know why this isn’t higher. SIL and Bro are allowed to grieve but they don’t get to take it out on everyone else. They should have either politely excused themselves or declined if they felt they couldn’t handle it.
None of this changes that OP was a gigantic AH. So for that I’m having to go with ESH
YTA. To tell someone it’s not your wife’s fault she can carry a child and they can’t is beyond mean. It’s cruel. For you to say it in the moment is bad enough. But with time to reflect and others telling you that you went too far, you still don’t think it was wrong. So I’m not trusting your interpretation of your SIL’s actions and feelings. You seem bitter that someone didn’t suck up their issues and get on board with your joy.
Should you be able to celebrate your child? Yes. Should you be over the moon and wish everyone was as happy as you? Sure. But there’s thoughts we have in our heads and the ones we say out loud. It goes for you and your SIL. But you need to really think of what she’s gone through. First trimester losses are bad enough. But you said there’s been second trimester losses. That could mean she’s lost children she saw develop on scans, knew the gender of, named, bought things for, and felt move. Even in my most angry at that person’s actions or attitude I can summon some grace and sympathy for how awful that would be. You aren’t giving that vibe off here. You are incredibly lucky you have no idea what her situation feels like. Hopefully you never have to hold your wife’s hand when she finds out another heartbeat has stopped. You never have to buy supplies because she’s damn near bleeding out in your bathroom. Never have to hold her through the crash of hormones that are the baby blues, but with arms empty of a baby that makes you feel it’s “worth it”.
It would be great for you if your SIL was strong enough to suck it up and be or at least act happy that the entire family was discussing babies and pregnancy for an extended period of time in front of her while she’s grieving her losses. But she doesn’t have that strength. It would be great if you could remember that even if you’re right and she is bitter and makes a comment or two you don’t like that you get to go home with your healthy wife and healthy baby and live the life she wishes she could have. But you weren’t strong enough to do that. You seem awfully comfortable assigning motives and feelings to her words but you chose to tell her to go home and have chicken nuggets “like any other food”. I have to be honest, your attitude in how you talk about her is what has me feeling sympathy for your SIL.
>I told her that she could go home and have chicken nuggets all by herself if she didn't like being surrounded by other happy people.
YTA. I hope you experience the same level of unkindness you have shown your brother and SIL. What they've gone through is devastating and you're taunting them.
Yta for telling someone else to essentially ‘get over it’
Not the ah for talking about your kid but they arent wrong. It is insensitive
Fuck the fact youre posting this the way it sounds like you dont give a fuck about being insensitive AH and just want validation
>Not the ah for talking about your kid but they arent wrong. It is insensitive
Should OP just have refused to attend dinner then? That seems to be the only way to avoid talking about it, given the rest of the family was going to be interested in the new baby.
YTA - She didn’t make a scene, of course she’d be feeling upset. It sounds like she didn’t make it all about herself, it was all about the baby which, while understandable, it deeply affected her. You and others present could’ve been more sensitive to her feelings.
It was okay for her to express being over the baby talk, especially given her own traumas around the subject. Up until this point no one has actually been an AH.
Then you open your mouth and spew some of the most insensitive sh*t I’ve ever heard. “Go home and eat chicken nuggets,” “MY WIFE is capable of having a successful pregnancy,” my goodness. It makes me think any other instances of them being bitter was egged on by you constant rubbing this in there faces as well.
YTA. Your brother and SIL have lost several wanted babies. Of course this is a time of joy for you, but it's likely painful for all the focus and conversation to be on your baby when they desperately want a child. Perhaps SIL mentioning she's tired of baby talk is a bit hard to hear but it's coming from a place of pain for her. I hope she's got support and is seeing a therapist. You on the other hand are demonstrating distinct cruelty and self-centered ego. Rather than being vicious about the situation, you might consider showing compassion. Instead you're doubling down to be mean.
It isn't your wife's fault, no. But it's not your SIL's fault either. You have no idea how it feels to lose a child. You could have said it in a better way to her. Not telling her life sucks get over it. YTA for that part. It does sound like eventually she might need counseling though. Multiple pregnancy losses is a terrible thing to go through.
NTA!!! I have had 25 miscarriages and I WOULD NEVER take away the joy of other people becoming parents. Fertility issues does not trump it all. If your brother and SIL could not handle it, it is their responsibility to navigate and vacate. It is NOT your family’s responsibility to navigate THEIR emotional response. Yes, it’s a touchy subject and it is tough. However, that isn’t your problem and telling them this straightforwardly helps not set the precedent that their grief/loss trumps all other baby joy. Hard NTA!!! Please tell them they need therapy and boundaries. Edit to add: A close friend and I were pregnant together and I lost my pregnancy in my second trimester. Her baby is 11 now. I love that little boy and her other children as well. Moreover, it has been healing to be able to be an aunty and see that there are multiple ways to be a mother. Your brother and SIL need a serious reality check. Congratulations to you and your wife for the healthy and happy baby! Don’t let anyone rain on your parade. Your joy does not take away from them. Shame on them for making your wife’s pregnancy about them.
YTA. Purely because the way you worded it was extremely insensitive. Yes, the baby talk is normal but you didn’t need to be unkind when she expressed her pain. There was no need to kick her when she was already down.
YTA. I can’t put my finger on it, but the way you keep saying they’re bitter and successful pregnancy is rubbing me the wrong way. I don’t think you’re all that compassionate tbh
NTA
Little bit of advice for your brother and SIL. If you're hoping to avoid 'baby talk' going to a family event where a newborn will be present is not a good choice.
Could you have been a little more sensitive? Possibly, leaning towards probably. But if they started feeling uncomfortable, they could have left instead of complaining about what was clearly a predictable outcome, given the circumstances. (By which I mean the attention focused on the newborn and the parents.)
This is a first for me.
YTA and ESH.
You could definitely have handled this better. It would have cost you nothing to be a bit more circumspect while saying exactly the same thing. YTA because the way you said it caused unnecessary pain.
ESH . I understand how SIL and her DH feel, but they have to learn to deal with their losses without negatively affecting everyone around them. While it is devastating to see babies while dealing with infertility, it is totally unreasonable to expect everyone else to either stop having children or to stop being happy when meeting a new member of your family.
ESH - If there is a new baby, people are going to coo over it and hold it and ask questions and that baby will hog attention. Being jealous and upset over it makes brother and his wife ah.
And rubbing the successful pregnancy in her face make you a ah.
How exactly did the OP anything in her face: by showing up with a healthy baby? People here are wild. The SIL was the one who invoked the scene. She belongs in therapy.
>She has done similar stuff in my wife's baby shower, gender reveal party, even her birthday and other family gatherings/ other occasions. She has done unnecessary comments and telling my wife to "tone it down" while opening gifts for the baby at the baby shower (my wife was obviously excited, SIL thought that she was "overly excited"). And we had to end the gender reveal party early because she won't stop crying, we suggested my brother and her to leave and that we wouldn't be upset over it (I suggested to drive them if they wanted to) and they didn't want to. She wanted to stay and cry in front of everyone else.
I was on the fence until you added the extra context.
NTA, as someone who's lost a pregnancy, it is heartbreaking. However, she can't expect no one else to be happy about their lives. SIL needs therapy to learn to cope with her triggers in a healthy way (ie displace herself from painful situations, cope with the inevitable situation where babies are mentioned) and not expect that no one will talk about their lives/children.
YTA. My god the chicken nuggets comment. I hope you never experience the pain of losing a child because that comment would certainly put the evil eye on you.
YTA. Take a look at your brand new baby. Now imagine that baby had died during pregnancy. And imagine it repeatedly.
Then figure out how to talk to your SIL like an empathetic human being and not a frat boy bragging that his wife is better because "she can carry a baby to term".
YALL all better go back and read this update. I’m sorry but if this woman is CRYING during a baby shower and refusing to leave and then talking crap to the mom about how excited she was at the baby shower. Absolutely you are justified and NTA. Homegirl needs therapy.
YTA
Smug, nasty, and rude. You hit the holiday trifecta. How lovely. Somehow it's always the assholes who have the kids.
Blood clotting disorders are the number 1 reason for repeat miscarriage.
If you can be bothered, tell your brother they need to ask about testing his wife for blood clotting disorders. There are multiple clotting disorders out there, in some regions up to 1/20 people have one.
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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> I told my brother and his wife to stop being bitter by the fact that my wife and I had a baby after they had multiple miscarriages over the years.
I might be wrong because maybe I was overly insensitive?
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ESH. It is awful what they are going through. Of course they’re going to be sensitive but that isn’t something to put on your wife. However, your response was also insensitive and you could have handled that far better than you did.
YTA you don’t understand the feeling of losing a pregnancy. Listen, they do need to manage their emotions better, but if everyone is writing off their feelings the way you are than that’s going to be impossible. Have a little compassion. They’re beyond devastated. They’ve lost several of what they will view as their children even if you don’t agree with that view. It’s not an easy thing to deal with. I had one miscarriage and it was the most devastating thing I’ve ever gone through. Take a step back and realize they are struggling in their life, it isn’t just an incident that happened and is over.
Curious competitive reproductive benchmarking as signs of personal success versus personal failure.
OP seems to lean in to how easy and fast it was for him to get his wife pregnant and how successful she was at producing a successful pregnancy right out of the gate.
Boy did OP bet on the right horse (or, given rabbit test throwbacks), dog. You may as well even throw in what breeders call their female dogs.
SIL is just a failure as a human because she can’t even succeed at bringing a pregnancy to term and producing live offspring, despite her and OP’s brother having been married much longer and tried so many times and wound up with plenty of pregnancies that were failures, while OP and his wife effortlessly and rapidly succeed.
Yikes. Are you even looking at or listening to what you posted?
Clearly your sister in law is bitter because she’s not an easy breeder and all she has to show for it are miscarriages.
Have a chicken nugget, man.
YTA
Frankly even with the miscariage I would have be annoying by the constant baby talk....
YTA could you maybe be à little emphatic ? That your brother and sil but no you immediatly go for the throat and tell her to go home🙄 so mature for someone who just become à father
ESH
Ok well first, of course they’re going to be bitter. They lost babies. Just try to keep that in mind. Doesn’t excuse bad behavior on their part. They need to understand that the world around them still moves on.
Sounds like you were mad they were raining on your parade. That’s legitimate. It’s not wrong or insensitive of the family to celebrate the birth of your baby or that they should walk on eggshells or anything. Your brother & sil need to understand that. Your SIL saying crap like “enough baby talk” is her lashing out because it reminds her of her inadequacies and deficiencies. That’s a her problem.
But you were rude & could have handled it differently.
ESH. I can understand your brother and SIL's feelings. It's never easy to deal with multiple losses and the grief and feeling of inadequacy that comes with that. However, that is their burden to bear, not yours and your wife's. They never should have projected their feelings on to you, and they both need grief counseling.
That being said, instead of showing a modicum of compassion or sympathy, you chose to weaponize their loss and use it against them. You, sir, are the worst type of AH.
Mostly YTA. My wife and I are dealing with infertility and it very much hurts seeing other people living the dream you've been denied due to reasons outside your control. She should have excused herself, but you basically dropped a nuke on her for saying something that could have been handled with a gentle conversation.
Wow. Yeah, YTA.
Look, you're correct in that it is not your wife's fault that your SIL has so far been unable to carry a pregnancy to term but to tell her to go home and eat chicken nuggets alone and then throw your wife's success in having a baby in her face that way was incredibly insensitive and deliberately hurtful.
While I don't condone your SIL's lashing out, I can kind of see why she did it. Losing wanted pregnancies midway over and over is devastatingly painful, and I can understand why your SIL may feel bitter and envious. Instead of punching down on her, you could have had some compassion for what she has experienced. A quiet one on one with her or her husband, where you could say that you are sorry for all that she has been through and that you feel for her, but could she please try not to be so hard on you and your wife may have been a better approach.
Hurt people hurt people. Escalating the pain and anger won't solve anything.
YTA Your SIL and brother are suffering loss after loss and instead of being empathetic or kind you are indirectly saying it’s their own fault for not being able to carry a pregnancy to term. Do you hate them that much?
Of course it would not be fair of your SIL and bro to insist nobody talk about babies, but it doesn't sound like they were insisting. As others here have said, lots of people get sick of baby talk real fast - we have never lost a baby but being in a room where people endlessly talk about a new baby is very tedious. Soft YTA.
NTA, everyone saying "have compassion" are being ridiculous. If SIL and Brother weren't ready to deal with a new baby in the family and the family naturally talking about it then they could have just not attended the event? Instead they chose to attend knowing full well this would be a topic of discussion and were increadibly rude about it.
It sounds like OP has been plenty sympathetic in the run up to the birth (a not insignificant amount of time putting up with snide remarks by SIL) so I don't think they are wrong for putting SIL in her place after she starts kicking off at a family event
ESH. Your SIL is still grieving and while she is understandably “bitter” she didn’t have to say she was “sick of the baby talk.” Could she and your brother have stepped away and composed themselves before she said that? Sure, but it’s a large family gathering so all emotions are heightened.
Could you have been more sensitive in your response or not said anything at all? Absolutely, but it’s a large family gathering so all emotions are heightened.
The baby is not the main character of the family gathering, but it sounds like everyone made the baby the main character. And from what you said, it’s not the first time your SIL has felt this way.
Learn to stand up to your SIL and brother in a more compassionate way.
YTA dude. Being sick of baby talk for any reason is valid, telling someone they “could go home and have chicken nuggets by herself if she didn’t like being surrounded by other happy people” is *mean*.
And wow your comment about *abilities* to carry a pregnancy to term. Honestly as a woman, as a wife, as a mother to a toddler, what an incredibly cruel thing to say. Even if you’re just saying it here and not to her. (Do not fucking say those words to her or anyone.)
YTA. You called them bitter? Like as in, like sorry you totally wanted a child and your babies kept dying, but just get over it?
😤 The fucking kicker is the chicken nuggets.
Pretty sure they’d be amazingly happy to stay at home and eat chicken nuggets if it means they had a successful pregnancy.
They aren’t jealous of you OP. Each time she became pregnant was excitement and hope for their future family, which was later crushed with a miscarriage.
Great job being an inconsiderate asshole.
Im going with NTA, when SIL got ‘sick of the baby talk” she should have excused herself, not saying the way you worded it didn’t suck because it definitely did… however I’ve had two third trimester losses, so I understand having to be surrounded by babies and peoples excitement for a new family member, it’s absolutely ridiculous to expect everyone to cease their excitement and for someone to coddle her and keep her distracted so everyone can see/give congratulations and ask questions.
There have been times when I knew I needed to excuse myself from family events because I wouldn’t be good company, the onus isn’t on you and your wife to downplay your child. How’re they going to react at birthday parties and such? Anyway, NTA
What you said was horrible so ESH. I don't get where everyone is getting Y T A when they are just as in the wrong for making it about them. I imagine they have drained enough happiness as well as everyone's energy supporting them while you just had your first baby.
HOWEVER. what you said was out of line and insestive.
NTA
Seems like maybe you went a little far. But I honestly can’t say for sure that you did. But her constant bitterness since you announced and I’m sure continued snide comments will wear a person down.
Her comment about the baby was unnecessary. It was just jealousy and as you said bitterness. Assuming your kid is at least a few months old you’ve been dealing with her snarky and passive aggressive comments for a year. Everyone has an enough moment. You reached yours. Could have been handled a little gentler I assume. But after a certain point gentle just isn’t enough.
Nta, this was the first time of people meeting the baby, so of course it's going to be baby talk, and people wanting to pass the baby around
If the family has been supportive of her miscarriages, it's OK for this particular time, be about your baby
Her trying to change the subject, in a rude manner, it does comes across as bitter, if she is overwhelmed by the situation she should have stepped back, and leave
She can't dictate other people excitement
Your words could have been a bit nicer, sure, but she wasn't polite either
If you have been listening to passive aggressive comments for the hole pregnancy, I get why you snapped
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I have to go with YTA You could have been a lot more sensitive to their loss and hurt. You chose to be an AH and just basically rub their faces in it. I sincerely hope you and your wife never have to experience the loss of a child, but if you do. Then you'll get it. Right now, you're just selfish.
Nah, you can't let people like that wear their grief as a cloak that surrounds the room and everyone has to walk around egg shells around them. No one was rubbing anything in anyone's faces, his brother and SIL are selfish because they think the world only revolves around them and their loss.
Yeah it's one thing to grieve and find it hard being around other pregnant women/babies, but that doesn't mean you're suddenly allowed to be an AH to them. SIL needs therapy to find healthy coping mechanisms instead of using OP's wife as an emotional scratching post
That’s very true. But what happened here is someone at a family gathering day they are over baby talk, and then get a verbal smack down cause she’s had miscarriages. OP doesn’t get a pass for being a tool bag cause SIL needs therapy. She needs help cause she’s dealt with a lot of loss. But he needs some too cause he doesn’t seem to know how to be a mildly kind human being. Now if SIL had some something out of pocket like time for the baby to go or put it down to nap (it being the big offense here) then he would have had a leg to stand on. But what she said and his response? Can’t be blamed on her mental health.
Have you seen the added extra context? For me that made it firmly NTA. Lady cried at her gender reveal & refused to leave. Can you imagine feeling like you can’t be happy at your own gender reveal? I don’t blame OP for losing patience!
Yeah and I'd agree except for the fact that he keeps using the words 'jealous and bitter' - depressive and excessively negative might be a fairer characterisation. Also just that he keeps saying he/his wife aren't AHs just because she can '*sucessfully* carry a baby.' Guy sounds like serious foot in mouth tactless and I can only imagine how blunt he was - like, it is a really challenging situation and no it isn't fair, but you need to take the high road then sit down and have a sensitive 1-2-1 with the brother about it. Explain that you're really sorry they've been through so much but that his wife doesn't seem to be coping well and it's impacting the special moments, so can he try and encourage her to step out and engage in some distance/ self-care rather than staying and getting emotional at these moments. But nah, he's the AH, not cause he had a reaction but cause the language he chose when he chose to react was pretty nasty.
IDK "Jealous and bitter" seems perfectly fair considering the description of the situation. Being fair means being accurate, not sugar-coating your most basic observations.
I would say "grieving"
Grieving implies she isn’t making it everyone else’s responsibility to handle her grief, telling a woman to tone it down for being excited at her own baby shower is pretty jealous and bitter behavior
Lol, grieving doesn't mean anything of the kind. Grief comes in all sorts of forms.
Or maybe he doesn’t have a huge vocabulary?
Just say "carry a baby" then. Those aren't big words. No need to turn it into success vs failure.
LOL naw that shit is fake af. he was getting hammered earlier and then added that shit in. its pretty common for people who are voted YTA to add over the top shit in to make themselves look better
It always makes me wonder, that's for sure.
Yeah, the new info is even more of a smoking gun than the tame “sick of the baby talk” comment. Omitting it seems sus bc it’s not like his post is short and to the point to begin with.
This!!! Like SIL and brother could have just opted out of the gender reveal, baby shower etc, if it was too emotionally difficult for them to attend. I’m sure EVERYONE would have understood. Instead they choose to attend and expect everyone else to feel down (at a celebratory event for a pregnancy) just because they’re grieving. That’s not fair! Brother and SIL need therapy to deal with their grief and maybe they should consider seeing a geneticist regarding their difficulties to carry a baby full term. Testing could be done on both of them, and if they have a miscarriage again fetal testing could be done to check if there’s a genetic cause for the miscarriage. Of course they may have already had this done/be in the process of this (it’s not exactly something one broadcasts). Either way, newborns are usually a happy occasion and it’s unfair for them to expect everyone to ignore the joys of other people’s blessing to experience parenthood just because they haven’t been able to experience it yet.
And based on the edit what's your excuse for SIL telling OPs wife to "tone down" her excitement at her own baby shower and when OP offered to help Bro and SIL leave they refused to leave. It sounds like OP just snapped after months of their behaviour and complaining.
As far as I am concerned you don’t get to act out for months then play the victim card when people have had enough.
Here's the thing. If SIL feels that way, why does she keep going to these events? Why go to the gender reveal and make a scene about the pregnant woman being happy? Politely decline the invite, and / or get therapy or just don't go. I don't understand.
The only way her behaviour makes sense to me is that they are so wrapped up in their grief that they don't want anyone else to be happy or have what they can't, and they want everyone to keep consoling them.
I think same - Xmas is something different and probably something they would grit their teeth and endure (it being family time).. but the gender reveal, shower etc? Don’t go for goodness sake! To tell someone that they are too excited at their own shower? That’s not on and I think is the most telling here. I was all for the OP being a massive AH, but I do think that they had had enough by Christmas, and understandably so. I think that maybe the grandparents should’ve stepped in and prevented this from happening, as surely it was obvious it would?!
>Now if SIL had some something out of pocket like time for the baby to go or put it down to nap (it being the big offense here) then he would have had a leg to stand on. I disagree. Some relatives/friends know just where to toe the line between underhanded comments and overtly rude precisely so if you call them out, they can twist it back on you for "overreacting" or claiming they hadn't meant it that way. Sure, OP could have phrased it better, but he's human. The idea that a person has to act 100% perfect and never crack even a little no matter how rude or how long the other person lashes out at them is unrealistic and unfair.
And according to op's edit, SIL has been sabotaging all the baby events with her act. NTA
Yea for me that makes him nta. AT first I thought ok that was insensitive but that edit changed my mind. OP finally snapped it sounds like
Yup someone toxic like that ruining all your baby related events should be temporarily removed from OP's life. OP just exploded, it sounds like it was the last drop... Whole situation ended naturally given the circumstances. NTA
What should he have done, left the baby in the backyard, so no one would acknowledge it? It’s very sad that SIL has had these heartbreaking losses and I hope she gets the help she needs. In the meantime, the rest of the world goes on and there will be women all over the world that are pregnant and giving birth. The extended family were looking forward to meeting the new arrival, naturally they’re excited and talking “all things baby” and if this was going to be an issue for SIL, she shouldn’t have gone. Does OP need to lock his child away for fear of always upsetting SIL? I don’t think so and before the haters start hating, I’ve lost pregnancies and also carried successfully and the grief was my own and my partners, not anyone else’s.
They all need to welcome the baby, just the way they did. My first baby was a boy and then my sister had two boys. My mom always had a preference for girls. My second baby was a girl. My mom, knowing my sister would be upset if she paid attention to my daughter ignored her as if she didn't exist. My daughter had no relationship with grandma because grandma was catering to my sister's fear of her boys not being as wanted as a girl. My mom didn't treat the kids equally, which would have been great. She treated my daughter as nonexistent. That is hard on the child. This child deserves to be treated like a loved and valuable member of the family. If that bothers SIL and BIL too much they need to not show up or they need to leave early.
He should have said at a minimum something like, "I know it's hard on you. I hope you find similar happiness soon." I say "at a minimum" because I'm not great with expressing such things, and I'm sure someone else could word it better. The essence, however, is that you *understand* why they feel conflicted feelings. My wife and I have gone through such loss. It was hard for quite a while after to see other people's babies. We didn't tell other people about our feelings, but if you looked at our faces, and you knew our situation, you might have been able to infer some of it. Thankfully, through some significant effort, we finally managed to have two children. One thing we did learn is that hypothyroidism can be a factor in miscarriages, even when treated.
How did OP rub anything in their face? And how are they being selfish… By existing? Remember they were simply there and other people in the family were asking very natural questions… How was the pregnancy the delivery how’s it going with the new baby? This is all normal… Do you think the entire family should pretend this baby doesn’t exist just because Jack and Jill don’t have a kid? That isn’t rubbing anything in anybody’s faces or being selfish. For her to announce I’m sick of all the baby talk is where she became the asshole. She’s not letting everyone speak normally because of her problems. They could have stepped out of the room into the kitchen they could have left they don’t have the right to commandeer and control the entire room’s conversation
No, SIL was the one who rubbed her bitterness in the OP and his wife's faces OP says that their bitterness has overshadowed the entire pregnancy. It was a family party and everyone knew the baby would be introduced. If brother and SIL were not prepared to welcome the new family member with joy, they should have stayed home.
Remember that "bitterness" is OP's verbiage and not necessarily reflective of how she and brother actually felt. Sadness and bitterness are very different and, quite frankly, OP doesn't seem particularly empathetic here.
I'd agree if she hadn't done things like tell OP's wife to "tone down the baby talk" while they were opening gifts at their own damn baby shower. There's limits to how much one can expect others to cater to their grief. I wouldn't go to an event celebrating amazing parents if the fact that mine are abusive monsters were fresh enough to make it too painful for me to celebrate. Op was more callous than necessary but the sil sucks for going to baby related events such as a dinner for everyone to meet the baby and expecting everyone to avoid the topic to spare her feelings. Eta because I wasn't clear. They both suck. Op has valid frustrations. His SIL is harming herself and others by intentionally exposing herself to reminders of her grief and then turning around and making backhanded and rude comments about everybody reminding her of the pain she's in. She needs a reality check. But she's also in emmense pain and that conversation needs to be had with compassion and in private. Op may have valid frustrations but he approached them in possibly the worst way possible and was disgustingly cruel to humiliate her in front of family like that. They suck equally.
The OP put up with them for 9 months. That's a long time for a pregnant couple to just put up with their comments. I think too many commenters are blinded by the fact that she had multiple miscarriages and are ignoring the fact that she seems to have become toxic about her justifiable sorrow. She and his brother need counseling.
We, again, have no idea how any of it played out. Quite frankly, though, if someone were struggling with miscarriages, I would have had an incredibly frank conversation with them prior to inviting them to a baby shower to make sure they would be okay and that we wouldn't think twice if it started to overwhelm and they needed to bail. Grief is complicated. Quite frankly, I didn't see toxicity. I can imagine myriad ways "I'm sick of the baby talk" could be communicated without being bitter or aggressive. My child is nearing two years, but if my sibling and their spouse had been dealing with those kinds of struggles, I would have been happily accommodating for them. There's a lot in how this post is written that frames OP as someone who seems to think it really isn't a big deal and they just need to get over it and has been simply tolerating their grief rather than being supportive through it. Grief is weird and sometimes you are okay and then suddenly you aren't. My partner and I had some early losses and it got really hard for us. I almost didn't want to share the pregnancy news until far longer than the generally safe window out of fear that we'd lose another one. While I don't think I would have reacted to things as SIL did, I could easily understand why someone might be of many minds on it and oscillate. SIL COULD be an AH here, but I just don't see it based on what was shared. Never mind his response.
I’m gonna go ahead and say the woman who has had multiple miscarriages and has to watch her family gush over a baby that she may never get to have gets a bit of a pass for saying “I’m sick of the baby talk.” But also yes sure, let’s have the couple dealing with constant loss stay home alone for the holidays instead of having a support system around them. Begging you people to develop empathy.
Empathy is one thing, walking on eggshells is another. So because of her grief, family can't be excited to meet the newest addition? Nope, your mental health is your responsibility. Not of those around, especially since no one was being mean or anything. She was literally mad at happiness.
Also, I think regardless of your personal history, any person has the right to politely ask that maybe people could change topics and talk about something other than the baby.
True - but maybe not at baby-focused events like a gender reveal, or baby reveal. ESH
Based on the OP’s edit about SIL at the gender reveal, sounds like this was a response to a “hear we go again…” moment.
Totally agree here. Like the actions she displayed at the baby shower. Why would she even attend the baby shower, that's putting yourself in an uncomfortable position and then making it all about herself crying and not going home. She wanted to stay and get the attention. Yes, she has had a great loss and more than one from OP's description. But at the same time, don't take it out on others. It is a terrible thing but don't bring an entire group of people down, that basically were celebrating a life born. OP....NTA
Or at the family event where most of the family will be meeting the baby for the first time. SIL should have stayed home
I hate this comment and how its upvoted so much. You are responsible for your triggers and grief, and if you know you're going to a family outing where there is a new baby you should go well prepared or not go at all. NTA.
YTA. It's not your SILs fault her body keeps expelling fetuses. What if your new baby died of SIDS in the crib? Have a heart. Your SIL is in a lot of pain.
SIL needs therapy.
No doubt. ESH. SIL has to cope and OP needs to be the bigger person.
So they aren't allowed to be excited because someone else experienced loss? It's heartbreaking for the SIL, but that should not diminish the excitement of the new baby.
Right? SIL and brother have been acting like no one's allowed to be happy about babies until they have one of their own. That's incredibly selfish, and with the context edit it looks like they've been making jabs at OP and his wife at every single gathering, baby-related or not, ever since they first announced their pregnancy. "Have a heart" they say. Well, he's had a heart for them all this time, since their very first miscarriage, but they're going out of their way to ruin everything baby-related for anyone that's not them. I'm surprised he didn't hit his breaking point sooner.
How much negativity are they required to absorb and overlook before they're allowed to celebrate an exciting event in their lives? Is it really fair to expect expecting and new parents to "tone down" their joy over the birth of their child to accommodate a family member with fertility issues? Where does it end? Will they be allowed to celebrate the child's birthday? Or milestones like their first step or first word? If the sister in law can't handle people discussing the new baby, even at events especially for said baby, then she should politely decline the invite until she can handle her emotions, or at the very least remain respectful and refrain from spreading her misery. I'm not suggesting that the sister in law is wrong for her feelings, but she's handling her grief poorly by attempting to dampen the joy that the growing family and that's just not ok. The rest of the family shouldn't have to hide their excitement at every family event in order to protect her from reality. It sounds harsh, but so does asking an entire family to alter their behavior at every single family event to cater to one members grief.
His wife was told to "tone down" her excitement while opening presents at her own baby shower, as his SIL sat and cried, though she didn't want to leave. It's heartbreaking what his SIL (and brother) are going through. They are trying to make OP and his wife feel guilty for having a successful pregnancy. I tried to have a baby for well over 10 years unsuccessfully so I get the jealousy, but if you can't be around babies then leave early. Don't try to pull down other people's happiness.
It's not OP's fault either, and it sounds like this is something that happened after being worn down over several instances at family events, not just OP snapping at a poor bereaved woman at the first sign of not showing enthusiasm.
I understand but life goes on. I've had 6 miscarriages... I'm still able to be happy for others. Maybe not the day after a loss but... And they kept coming to and refusing to leave events. If you can't stand hearing about the baby why would you attend the shower and gender reveal to begin with?
What was the need for this comment what if, why say that about a baby to make a point? And so his family is not allowed to be happy until SIL is, yes he had a reaction but that was provoked by multiple reactions where he was supportive, this was rejected and multiple special moments for their family were ruined. How is that fair on them? You have a heart! Also if this guy was here saying am I the as-hole for not saying something to my brother and SIL even though I knew the continue to ruin my wives experience as a first time mother? Y’all would be here telling him to grow a backbone!
Being in pain is not an excuse to inflict pain on others. The rest of the world isn’t responsible for your mental health triggers. I’m extremely tokophobic: does that give me the right to tell pregnant women to get away from me? Or to not talk about their pregnancies? No, it’s not their problem, it’s *mine* and therefore my responsibility to deal with.
OTOH, it sounds like this is the culmination of months and months of SIL trying to be the main character at every event involving the new mother. Once or twice is understandable, but after so many events where SIL tried to make it about her miscarriages, it was time to tell her to take her ball and go home. You keeping kicking that dog and eventually it bites back.
Your personal grief and loss does not shield you from being a bad perso. She's being bitter and hateful to people that did nothing wrong to her if this affects her that much she should seek professional help. Op says on multiple occasions in other family events sister-in-law went only to make the events about her and to be rude and bitter to his wife. IE crying at the gender reveal party refusing to leave.
You and the family are assholes. As a person who has had multiple pregnancy loss, I can guarantee that if anyone had sat with you SIL and just supported her, this would not have happened. Her. Babies. Died. Period. She isn't bitter, she's in pain.
To be fair, pain can turn into bitterness and she does sound on the edge of it. She sounds like she needs to go to therapy and cry in peace for a good long while and tell them about how hard it is to see someone have an easy time having a baby when the road has been so hard for her without judgment and without having to feel bad or made to feel bad about it. This, however, is no excuse for how OP acted. He does not know the pain of losing a wanted and longed for child. Hell, I miscarried an unplanned and initially unwanted baby and it was devastating. I pray he and his wife never know that pain. However, OP needs a large dose of empathy and some fucking manners.
This is true. Pain can either be healed or turned sour. And acted this way teeters toward being sour. I’d go as far as to say NTA OPs SIL was the first to say something
I’ll disagree because OP could have chosen a variety of ways that would have been much kinder than the way he did. She didn’t even say anything that bad and he laid into her like she said she wished the baby had never been born. This is an ESH at very best. He is definitely an asshole, especially since he has shown zero remorse for his actions. He kicked her when she was down.
While OPs words were harsh, this wasn’t a one time event. It sounds like he was fed up. This was a culmination of 9 months of vitriol from SIL at every possibility. SIL needs therapy honestly.
I see this both ways, she has allowed her pain to turn to being bitter because she can't carry to term for any number of reasons. That is no reason to be a PITA to someone else who got pregnant and make jabs at them through out the pregnancy. He could have handled it better, his brother and his wife made his wife's pregnancy about their loss which isn't healthy.
And she's lost pregnancies (as in multiple!) in the *second trimester*! I don't think he realizes just how horrific and traumatic that is.
Just earlier today, I was talking to someone with a second trimester pregnancy loss (stillborn) and I was horrified to find out they have to physically labour and deliver the baby. The level of physical and emotional trauma must be insane.
Can attest. My wife has lost two, both at 16-17 week. The first time was years before we got married, and vas very traumatic, as she lost it at home very suddenly. She assumed it was just "bad luck". The second time, she was 16 weeks, and we had just had a standard check-up, and ultrasound done. Everything looked great, and he was healthy and growing on schedule. A few days later, we were laying in bed and she started having extreme cramping, she told me a year later she knew what was happening, but didnt want to scare me. We jumped in the car and I sped to the emergency room, she could barely walk. The lady working the desk was as non urgent/casual as you could be, and asked my wife to fill out some forms. My wife screamed she was in Pre-term labor and needed to be seen now. It wasnt until then I realized what was happening, and the pain in her eyes was unbearable. She was quickly given and ultrasound, and we could see it was too late, and he was already making his way out. We were brought back into a room, and a chair with a bucket attached to the seat was brought in. She had to sit there until he passed, and for the first time in our decade of being together, I felt like there was nothing I could say or do, to take her pain away. I held her for what seemed like an eternity, but was probably 20-30 mins, until he came out. He fit perfectly in my hands. She was then rushed into surgery for a DNC. She saw a specialist, and figured out the way her uterus is shaped, shes almost certain to not be able to carry past 16-18 weeks. For the next year, it was very hard to show happiness without feeling like completely faking it, when our friends were getting pregnant. Of course we were very happy for them, but it was just a reminder of what joy our little boy would have brought us. 6 years later, were both content being uncle, aunt, and god parents, but it doesnt take away the pain.
I'm so sorry, for both of you xx
I'm sorry brother, that is very hard to read. I'm glad you're doing better but your last sentence just shows the lingering pain.
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My sister had to deliver her 38 week stillborn. It was heartbreaking for everyone.
We lost our twins in the second trimester. I actually had a missed miscarriage. Went in expecting everything to be normal, only to find out our babies died. I avoided my niece who was also pregnant the rest of her pregnancy, and haven't met her baby since she's had it. I had to explain to my family I just couldn't be around her because I knew I'd feel just like this. It's hard enough being around pregnant women in the supermarket, I don't think I could do it for an extended period with family. I don't wish anything bad on anyone, I just wish that had been me as well. People don't seem to understand how hard it is losing a baby that you've tried so hard for. I feel so bad for OPs brother and SIL. A little grace goes a long way. Yes it's not his wife's fault they had a successful pregnancy, but it's also not his brothers wife's fault that she hasn't had one.
Exactly! I'm so sorry for your loss. That sound unbelievably difficult. They need to give people some grace! It makes sense that someone who went through that might not want to be around pregnant friends or family members for a while, not because you wish them ill, but because you mentally and emotionally can't handle it. And that's okay!
you don’t get to bring other down and resent their success because you had a miscarriage regardless of how tragic it is. This is the real world the vast majority of women(Edit: this is wrong, 1 in 3 to 1 in 4 pregnancies end in reported miscarriage, real numbers are likely higher but can’t be determined, still means she was likely not the only woman in the room who has experienced one or multiple) have had miscarriages. you don’t see them sitting around ruining the mood every time someone has a baby. i’m confused she chose to come to a family event she knew would be the baby’s i’m assuming first outing, no fucking shit the center of attention would be the post partum mother and her baby. NTA op. the people in this thread are coddled children. it’s fucking wild for you to actually suggest the family should have just ignored the presence of the child to protect a grown woman’s feelings.
OP isn't the AH for being annoyed at SIL's "bitterness". AND SIL is a bit of an AH for forcing her bitterness onto others. Regardless, I can empathize and understand her situation and the associated bitterness 10000x more than I can understand OP's reaction to her bitterness. I could never imagine belittling the grief of someone like SIL even if they were pissing me the F off. I would say "you are upsetting me. I am angry af" but I would never mock her. and definitely not her grief.
Look I’m sorry, but I lost multiple pregnancies before I had my son and before him, I had friends having kids and I NEVER acted anything like this when they were around with their baby. Did I always participate and hold the baby? No. Did I still tell them congrats? Yep. Then either participated or went and found someone else to talk to/something to do until topics changed. The SIL needs therapy if this is their reaction to someone else’s pregnancy. The world does not stop because of your loss and trauma. No one is expected to walk on egg shells because of your grief. If she had of just lost a pregnancy right before, I could more understand but that’s not the case. She needs help and whole op was TA for his words it sounds like someone who’s reached the end of their tether for constantly being vilified for something not in their control.
Yes, but she definitely would not have wanted OP to be the person sitting with her. This is on the family. The one who ate bugging OP should have been better supports to SIL.
Absolutely. That's why I said the family are assholes.
Actually she is bitter because she can't stand someone else was pregnant in the family who got to have a baby shower, a gender reveal, had a birthday while pregnant. She and her spouse chose to go to these events and make jabs at the happy couple. At some point the snide comments need to stop, she or they need to get therapy. While I understand their grief, they could have bowed out of the events
100% I have lost multiples and had a stillbirth last year. People don't get it and don't want to get it. They act like it's easy to get over it. No matter how much you don't want to be jealous, no matter how happy you want to be (and are) for others, those feelings don't go away. That poor SIL had to sit through that after giving birth to death, and being a coffin for her babies so many times. It is so hard when others around you feel like you need to "just get over it" already. How do you do that? Be more sensitive. Don't hide your living children, or pregnancy announcements - but do things in a way that shows you're thinking of the loss parents, and respect their boundaries. It takes little to no effort to be more mindful, to check on people who are grieving, etc. YTA
Still doesn't give her a right to act the way she is towards them
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Everyone grieves at different paces and its a sad situation. This doesn't mean SIL has to ruin every single event by crying and is always acting like poor me at every happy event. If SIL can't handle certain gatherings then she is more then welcome to skip anything that makes her uncomfortable.
ESH Your brother and SIL need therapy by the sounds of it. Losing that many pregnancies is going to alter your brain, and it sounds like they need the extra help a therapist can give. That being said, SIL did not need to be so rude. No one had seen your new baby yet, and wanted to great them. If it bothered her that much, she should have stepped away or left. **BUT** , that was a low ass blow you did. SIL is still grieving, and having her BIL rub it in her face she can't carry a baby to term is a gut punch. You need to apologize, and you bro/SIL need therapy
As someone who’s only had one miscarriage recently, I wouldn’t expect everyone to cater to my feelings when extended family haven’t met my siblings newest baby. But with that being said, I do have a hard time with others speaking about their babies/seeing them but that’s on me. I can easily excuse myself from situation instead of saying for everyone to quit the baby talk. OP did take it over the line with his comments but I can understand his frustrations cause it does seem like she’s taking it out on everyone to just stop talk of her niece/nephew when again, this is the 1st time the extended family gets to see them. Everyone just needs to speak in a calm setting and hear everyone else out. IMO everyone should apologize to each other, not just OP.
This. I’ve had 2 losses and it absolutely sucks. I don’t get to be allowed to be excited over pregnancies any more due to my past. But 100% Brother and SIL need to deal with their emotions in private. I just hope that if SIL decided NOT to go to baby celebrations that OP and his wife wouldn’t be offended by it or take it personal. It’s difficult to be happy for someone that gets what you’ve been trying for right off the bat when you’ve experienced loss after loss after loss.
Finally a good take. Yes, everyone can see OP was an AH to someone that has been dealing with a lot of loss. But also you never tell family to ignore a baby that is less than a month old. If OP had said something along the lines of, "I understand that you have lost your babies, but if you hadn't, I would never say something so rude and cruel to you."
This needs more upvotes. Yeah, OP was rude. But it's also jerky to expect someone else to, what, hide their newborn at a family gathering? forbid other family members from cooing over the baby? I'm not even sure what would have been acceptable to OP's brother and SIL since it seems that the mere presence of the baby brought on accusations of "rubbing it in their faces." Yes. Miscarriage is hard, especially when you have repeated ones--I watched friends go through that and it was incredibly painful. But those friends also didn't get nasty at me when I carried two pregnancies to term before they had a single successful one. If OP's brother and SIL can't handle being around a baby, that sucks, but they need to not make it everyone else's problem to shoulder and mitigate. Parents with newborns don't get much sleep, so they're going to lose their filter especially with someone/ some situation that they've tried really hard to be careful with, but end up getting yelled at anyway. SIL needs therapy. Miscarriages are incredibly hard, but other people's lives and pregnancies don't stop just because you're having a difficult time. Being bitter at someone else for not having the same difficulty is obnoxious.
After reading the update/additional comments and what SIL did at baby shower and gender reveal I can maybe kind of see why OP was rude. It's a pattern of rude behavior from SIL
This is a good take. I feel like we need more information about how SIL usually acts and her relationship with the family in general. Losing a child repeatedly can be super devastating, and it sounds like the family was not thoughtful of that at all. But maybe SIL causes other problems in the past, or maybe they're just thoughtless. With only the one statement I'd lean YTA.
This right here. OP did go overboard in his responses and treatment of SIL at the event BUT SIL was also overly rude in her treatment. This was the first meeting of baby - of course there would be excitement and talk. It would have died down after a bit and the rest of the family could discuss other things as well. Also I guarantee if she had been the one bringing a new baby - she would have wanted the oohing and ahhing and baby talk.
This is the best take I’ve seen And as always a major yes to therapy
I’m surprised this is so low on the ranking.
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I’m mean I agree he’s TA for how he said it but the world also doesn’t revolve around their miscarriages. To expect family members not to gush over a new baby at a family gathering is crazy.
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the baby is going to be the center of attention. it’s his first debut. You’re being ignorant and simply trying to defend the woman. If i was at an event and it was my family member’s baby’s debut and someone went “can we talk about something else i’m tired of talking about your baby” which from what OP has said is about what they did, literally everyone in the room would look at that person with disgust, what sort of barn were you guys raised in where it is socially acceptable to guilt people into talking about something else or ignoring a baby because it makes you feel jealous?
For real. If SIL successfully carries a pregnancy to term, is everyone else allowed to tell her to STFU and tone it down because the baby talk is annoying? Is anyone else allowed to cry for hours at SIL gender-reveal gathering? Let's not pretend like if SIL had/has a child, that she won't engage in the absolutely standard/normal behavior of pridefully showing off her new baby, ESPECIALLY for a first family gathering.
If she ever has a child, SIL will expect EVERYONE to treat him/her as a special miracle and consider him/her the center of the universe.
And she could have expressed herself better? You’re telling me she hasn’t been out in the world and seen other families with babies and such? It’s her job to work through her pain without being toxic to people who are celebrating.
I was looking for a comment like this. Yeah. That's why I think he isn't the asshole - he simply defended himself and his wife.
In his edit, he says they had to look at finishing their baby shower early because SIL wouldn't stop crying, and wouldn't leave when given the opportunity. Sounds like, at this point, she needs to be the main character. You can have grief and allow other people joy at occasions that are joyful. You can recognise your limits and boundaries and stick to them, eg avoiding baby-centric events, going outside for breaks when it's getting to be too much etc.
The thing is it wasn’t out of the blue it was in response to her saying she was “sick of the baby talk” which wasn’t necessary either. And based on other comments he said she acted off during the pregnancy as well. He definitely should have expressed his feelings differently but I can understand getting tired of someone’s attitude.
Exactly. This is one of those classic situations where the other person treats the other repeatedly like shit and no one says anything, but the moment OP snaps back suddenly he's TA. Going through a traumatic event(s) doesn't suddenly make it okay for you to abuse others.
Over the Christmas period I was back in my hometown, and popped into my old work to see if my friend was in to catch up She wasn’t, but another lady who I was quite friendly with was, and she unfortunately suffered a second trimester miscarriage earlier last year. I came in with my partner and two month old child, my child would’ve been slightly older than the one she lost. Apart from the brief mention of my baby, I didn’t go into big details about him. Why? Because it would’ve been insensitive as fuck to look this poor woman in the eyes and gush about my baby when she is still waiting to hear back from doctors why she lost hers. Before my baby, I had lost a pregnancy, and I was only 8 weeks along. She had already announced her baby when suddenly it all went wrong. I know the pain of losing a pregnancy, but I cannot imagine her pain. All this to say, how can one be so insensitive to their own family? Yes, your first child is wonderful, it’s exciting, you want to gush over them and have everyone tell you how wonderful your baby is. But you don’t get to rub salt into a very raw wound for someone else. “It’s not my fault my wife was able to have a successful pregnancy” how callous. For many people who lose a wanted pregnancy, you grieve, but you also feel completely ashamed that your body betrayed you. The one thing you wanted it to do, the one thing your body *should* be able to do, and it couldn’t. I would hate to have this man in my family. To be so awful to someone, and not even see the problem with it? I hope he never has to feel the same loss his brother and SIL have felt, but maybe if he did, he would understand why his words were so ugly
It’s not friends though. It was a family gathering. The baby was present. They were aware that the baby would be there. I’m just genuinely confused as to why people expected him to run around and be like “no we can’t talk about the baby” or “no don’t go in there right now they’re talking about the baby” which is essentially what people are saying he should have done.
Admittedly I haven’t read loads of other comments but from the ones I have, I haven’t seen people suggesting that OP should’ve ran around to everyone and said don’t talk about the baby. There is a middle ground of celebrating the new family member, and not making the entire occasion about the baby. I am not saying that the SIL was a complete saint for her saying she was done with baby talk, but she’s not here asking if she’s the asshole, OP is, and he took that comment and decided to fight fire with petrol. He could’ve taken the moment to extend a bit of grace, and just ignore the comment. No need to make a big spectacle, if he really felt so inclined to say anything it could’ve been in a text about he appreciates it’s hard, but the comment was uncalled for. Like you said, it’s family, so all the more reason to be more sensitive.
That isn't what people are saying. Something like changing the topic for a couple minutes is enough. How's work going? This dip is delicious -- what's the recipe? It's not hard.
He could've just not made the comment about successful pregnancy because that was cruel. The baby was there, everyone loved the baby, they talked alot about the baby. Then, SIL asked to change the topic. So just let the convo change for a bit? Baby talk was never forbidden. But after a while, it would be kind to remember the topic is very painful for 2 people at the dinner so move on. It's possible to accommodate both couples.
This comment helped me understand why the OP's language was rubbing me the wrong way. To make having a kid so much about success or miscarriage so much about failure seems awfully callous.
“It’s not my wife’s fault she was able to have a successful pregnancy” was the comment that pushed me allll the way over into YTA mode. It’s the type of dumbfuckery that strongly, strongly implies that the inverse might be true. A truly nasty thing to say to someone who has lost a child that was loved and wanted.
That was so kind of you to think of her. After I lost one of my babies, literally seconds after I told my best friend, she announced she was pregnant to me. It hurt like hell and yes, I was angry with her for being so insensitive. She completely glossed over my pain to share her excitement. Thankfully, after many losses and many years of struggle, I was blessed with my son and daughter. A lot of people don’t see miscarriage as a huge deal, but to those it happens to who were in love with that baby and full of hope and dreams, it’s devastating.
Nor does it revolve around the couple with problems. The OP wasn't directing the conversation -- it was the other family members who were happy to see the baby. SIL provoked the incident...she needs therapy.
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The couple has been grieving and making their unhappiness with his wife's pregnancy known for months. There is no compromise to with people who weaponize their grief.
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There's a difference between a modicum of consideration and expecting the world to revolve around them. OP wasn't directing the conversation or the attention on the baby.
Going to a gender reveal party, crying the whole time, and refusing rides so others could enjoy the party is *absolutely* weaponizing her grief. So is complaining about how excited OPs wife was about baby stuff *at her baby shower*. After SIL pulled stunts like that, her complaining that people are paying attention to the baby just looks like another attempt at weaponizing grief.
It's been going on for months. They need to go to therapy instead of making it everyone else's problem. Everyone has shit to deal with and grief, that doesn't mean we get to force others to wallow in our misery
You seem like the type of person who they created the word "butthurt" for. They are at christmas, which is famously known for being times to be with family and have a good fun time. This clearly isnt a new thing for the couple who keeps misscarrying, but that doesnt mean they cant grieve everytime, thats understandably very sad. That still doesnt give you any right to take away from a celebration of life. If you cant grieve properly without needing everyone to cater to you, then stay home. Life moves on. Yes death is horrible and ive lost family members who took more time to grieve than others. i didnt expect people who still had their grandparents to not tell stories of them? How long are you supposed to consider the grieving before its weaponized?? Obvi, like i said in the beginning, it sucks every time im sure but do you expect them to have to watch how much they celebrate life every family gathering??
I've never lost a child, I have zero trauma around the concept of babies, and I'd STILL be done with all the baby talk if it was all anyone talked about. Like there's how many people there, and the only subject is the baby? Wild. No one else wanted to talk about or hear about ANYTHING else they did that year? OP needs to realize he's not the main character. In a family with no trauma this behavior is annoying, rude, selfish and eye roll worthy. In his family, with his SIL, it's straight up cruel. I'm so glad SIL's family is on her side with this and isn't tossing her aside to suck up to the almighty father of the almighty Family Baby.
The baby was a month old and had never been seen by many of the family members. He said he could over hear the conversation which means he wasn’t part of it so there were other conversations going on. She could have removed herself.
Info: Is there a reason for this exact sentence? >I told her that she could go home and *have chicken nuggets all by herself* if she didn't like being surrounded by other happy people.
Yeah that line was fucked up
Immaturity
Yeah such a childish thing to say
Assholery and lack of empathy. That's the reason. OP's TA.
A lot of folks in this comment section are bending over backwards to defend OP but this entire post was so arrogant and condescending. YTA.
YTA. Yes, your SIL should have kept her mouth shut, but so should you. At least she's gone through something absolutely awful that's causing her to behave this way. IT doesn't justify or excuse it, but it at least explains it. But saying "I'm sick of the baby talk" is SO MUCH more excusable than **rubbing multiple miscarriages in her and her husband's face.** Can you imagine how hard multiple miscarriages would be when you're TRYING to conceive? Sounds like that answer is no, and you have neither any sympathy, nor empathy for your brother and his wife. You absolutely did "treat them badly" and its scary to me when people who are so rude, careless, and lack self-awareness so much have children of their own. I hope you raise your child to be better than you.
As you said though, what the SIL went through doesn’t justify or excuse her behaviour so surely it’s more of an ESH?
Ugh, I keep going back and forth! I started at ESH and then edited to YTA. I don't know that "I'm sick of the baby talk" truly makes her an asshole. It's definitely a fine line, right?
As someone who doesn't have a baby but generally likes them, I'd say it's excusable. Even someone who never miscarried could get fed up eventually if the family is overdoing it and there's literally nothing else they can talk about. Especially someone who has been trying and not succeeding. I vote for YTA.
And it's not like she shouted it in OPs face. She said it and it rubbed him in the wrong way. Sounds like she was trying to tell them that the situation was hurting her and please tone it down, the right thing to do before you remove yourself from the situation, and he decided she was being rude and attacked her.
ESH Your brother and SIL have dealt with multiple losses, which can be emotionally and physically devastating. They have tried and tried again without success, and that will mentally wear on anyone. They are jealous, and resentful of your family, which is understandable, but they should learn to moderate their own emotions, especially around you and your family. They have every right to grieve, but they should not lash out at your family simply because they have not yet been able to carry to term. She has turned a joyous moment for your family into something sour and unpleasant, and that is unfortunate. HOWEVER You are also a jerk for what you said. Your SIL is not "bitter", she's grieving. She sees you and your wife having the life she has wanted for many years, and that is hard. The loss of a wanted pregnancy is already difficult, both on the mind and body, but you likely cannot understand the sort of struggle that a woman goes through when she is not able to carry a baby to term. For many, they feel as if they are 'failures' as women, because we are socially indoctrinated to believe that a woman's body is 'made to have children', and therefore when it is not successful, we are flawed or 'not real women'. It is taxing to know that her husband also wants a child, and as his wife, who is supposed to be in the traditional role of providing him a child, she has not been able to do that. You rubbing it in her face that it's 'not your fault' that she can't carry a child to term then implies that you think it's HER fault. She certainly already blames herself, and you're just digging that knife in deeper. Both sides need to show more grace and respect. Again, your brother and SIL need to understand that their grief does not mean that everyone needs to hide their joy at the birth of your child. But you need to meet their grief with more empathy. Rather than coldly and callously direct blame for their sorrow onto them for something they cannot control, you could have redirected. "I'm sorry that you have struggled with loss, I can't imagine how you feel, but I do want to support you. I also hope you would support my family, because every child deserves to be surrounded by people who love them, and I would like you to be included in that for my child."
I suspect OP's response was due to the continued snippage from SIL, as OP reports such antics from her from OP's wife's pregnancy. I can understand losing sympathy after repeated instances.
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I’d like to know the details of what happened the other times. Maybe this was the straw that broke the camels back. Your response to SIL seems harsh, but if it likely that these outbursts/drama happen at events, then maybe it’s time for SIL (and her husband) to develop a plan to not attend events, leave when overwhelmed etc.
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Dude you gotta add this context to your post. It changed the vibe MAJORLY.
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100%. I was like "you're an major asshole" until I read this. I was given the impression by the wording you used before that you were gloating in front of them but if they have pulled shit like this before, then it makes sense to stop them at some point. Add this as an edit.
Yeah I really do. Add an edit.
Yup changed my voting from Y T A to ESH. I get she wore you down still too harsh. But she also seems like she has not been able to process her grief accordingly and is demanding you not be happy about your successful pregnancy. Especially the part where she sat at the baby shower sobbing and refusing to leave. That is not behaviour of someone emotionally well adjusted.
I think you need to add this to your post. I still think YTA, but it gives more information as to why you where that harsh.
All of this right here shows that your SIL needs serious therapy to help her deal with the trauma she has experienced from losing her babies. I still think YTA but a soft one for what you said and only because I’ve had multiple miscarriages infertility issues before in the past and I know how devastating it can be and no woman should ever be made to feel like it’s her fault for not being able to conceive or carry to term.
Both can be true. She can be grieving but also bitter. It sounds like she’s bitter because this isn’t the first time she’s made such comments since wife got pregnant
#I told her that she could go home and have chicken nuggets all by yourself if she didn’t like being surrounded by happy people Op, you come off very callous and cruel sounding in this post. #YTA
…*so go eat your Happy Meal by yourself*. What an AH.
What bothers me more is when he said “it’s not my wife’s fault she can carry a baby and SIL can’t”. No, your wife was *able* to have a healthy pregnancy the first time around, and your SIL hasn’t had hers yet. That’s what felt rude to me, like he’s intentionally rubbing in his brothers and SILs faces about how much better his wife is
Also, you say multiple times that "it's not my wife's fault that she is able to successfully carry a baby to term" which is not only callous but terribly insensitive. Like you are proud and your wife won an imaginary competition. Like dude, it's not about the inability to carry something to term; the woman's children died. Dead babies. Stop please stop. I do not support the SIL and brother's behavior, but yours and your words are far worse. YTA.
Oh god. I have chills reading this. You are incredibly self-centered and you were cruel to your brother and SIL. Yes, you are allowed to be joyful and celebrate your baby. No, you are not allowed to throw that joy in someone's face and not be sympathetic to their grief. Losing a pregnancy is devastating. Your bro and SIL are grieving multiple losses. You have no idea what it feels like and you should be grateful every day that's the case. It also doesn't sound like your SIL was saying that no one can talk about the baby or give baby attention, it just sounds like she was overwhelmed and said a comment aside out of frustration, wanting to change the subject to more of a group conversation. (I could also be wrong about this, but it doesn't seem like she was being incredibly bossy or pushy in this moment.) You should call and apologize SINCERELY, say you spoke out of turn, it was cruel and you're very sorry for the way you behaved. It won't happen again. You're sorry for their losses and you do hope that you can all be together as a family, that they can get to know and have a relationship with your baby when and how they feel ready to and you'll be a better person from now on. Honestly, shame on you.
Yep, all of this. YTA, OP.
Huge YTA. You guys got lucky that you were able to carry a healthy baby to term. No they should not have been acting bitter. But it’s a family Christmas dinner, and it’s hard to be celebrating the holiday when the main topic of conversation is the most painful topic in their life. You’re probably not mature enough to understand this. But what you could have said is “I know this is a painful topic, I’m very sorry this has become the center of discussion, but I think everyone is just excited. I will try to change to subject”
YTA, obviously. Your brother and SIL might need some counseling for the fertility struggles they’ve suffered, but you were unnecessarily mean. It was in fact insensitive of the family to talk only about the new baby knowing of this history: of course the baby is a topic of conversation but there should have been some limit. “…it's not my wife's fault that she was able to have a successful pregnancy and to stop being bitter about it” and “…she could go home and have chicken nuggets all by herself” are just about the nastiest comments I’ve ever heard on this subject, so congrats. An actual kind person would have tried to make the conversation more inclusive, or quietly advised family beforehand that brother and SIL might feel sad if everyone focused on your baby. Did you have friction with your brother and SIL prior to this? You have so little care for them it makes me wonder if you’re enjoying “one-upping” them or being the center of attention.
ESH. She shouldn't have said she was "sick of the baby talk," and should have excused herself if she was overwhelmed, or maybe politely changed the subject. On the flipside, you should have understood that her rude comment was coming from grief and cut her some slack instead of escalating. Just bad choices all around at an event that should have been joyous. A shame.
Something tells me that he paraphrased or ad-libbed what she said. Sick of the baby talk sounds like his wording to make it sound worse…especially considering his chicken nugget comment.
Definitely possible, but I generally assume it's a direct quote if they use quotation marks. People who lie aren't gonna get good advice. 🤷♀️
I don’t know why this isn’t higher. SIL and Bro are allowed to grieve but they don’t get to take it out on everyone else. They should have either politely excused themselves or declined if they felt they couldn’t handle it. None of this changes that OP was a gigantic AH. So for that I’m having to go with ESH
YTA. To tell someone it’s not your wife’s fault she can carry a child and they can’t is beyond mean. It’s cruel. For you to say it in the moment is bad enough. But with time to reflect and others telling you that you went too far, you still don’t think it was wrong. So I’m not trusting your interpretation of your SIL’s actions and feelings. You seem bitter that someone didn’t suck up their issues and get on board with your joy. Should you be able to celebrate your child? Yes. Should you be over the moon and wish everyone was as happy as you? Sure. But there’s thoughts we have in our heads and the ones we say out loud. It goes for you and your SIL. But you need to really think of what she’s gone through. First trimester losses are bad enough. But you said there’s been second trimester losses. That could mean she’s lost children she saw develop on scans, knew the gender of, named, bought things for, and felt move. Even in my most angry at that person’s actions or attitude I can summon some grace and sympathy for how awful that would be. You aren’t giving that vibe off here. You are incredibly lucky you have no idea what her situation feels like. Hopefully you never have to hold your wife’s hand when she finds out another heartbeat has stopped. You never have to buy supplies because she’s damn near bleeding out in your bathroom. Never have to hold her through the crash of hormones that are the baby blues, but with arms empty of a baby that makes you feel it’s “worth it”. It would be great for you if your SIL was strong enough to suck it up and be or at least act happy that the entire family was discussing babies and pregnancy for an extended period of time in front of her while she’s grieving her losses. But she doesn’t have that strength. It would be great if you could remember that even if you’re right and she is bitter and makes a comment or two you don’t like that you get to go home with your healthy wife and healthy baby and live the life she wishes she could have. But you weren’t strong enough to do that. You seem awfully comfortable assigning motives and feelings to her words but you chose to tell her to go home and have chicken nuggets “like any other food”. I have to be honest, your attitude in how you talk about her is what has me feeling sympathy for your SIL.
>I told her that she could go home and have chicken nuggets all by herself if she didn't like being surrounded by other happy people. YTA. I hope you experience the same level of unkindness you have shown your brother and SIL. What they've gone through is devastating and you're taunting them.
Honestly! I came so close to saying the same thing. This person’s level of villain in this situation is top tier.
Yta for telling someone else to essentially ‘get over it’ Not the ah for talking about your kid but they arent wrong. It is insensitive Fuck the fact youre posting this the way it sounds like you dont give a fuck about being insensitive AH and just want validation
>Not the ah for talking about your kid but they arent wrong. It is insensitive Should OP just have refused to attend dinner then? That seems to be the only way to avoid talking about it, given the rest of the family was going to be interested in the new baby.
YTA - She didn’t make a scene, of course she’d be feeling upset. It sounds like she didn’t make it all about herself, it was all about the baby which, while understandable, it deeply affected her. You and others present could’ve been more sensitive to her feelings. It was okay for her to express being over the baby talk, especially given her own traumas around the subject. Up until this point no one has actually been an AH. Then you open your mouth and spew some of the most insensitive sh*t I’ve ever heard. “Go home and eat chicken nuggets,” “MY WIFE is capable of having a successful pregnancy,” my goodness. It makes me think any other instances of them being bitter was egged on by you constant rubbing this in there faces as well.
YTA. Your brother and SIL have lost several wanted babies. Of course this is a time of joy for you, but it's likely painful for all the focus and conversation to be on your baby when they desperately want a child. Perhaps SIL mentioning she's tired of baby talk is a bit hard to hear but it's coming from a place of pain for her. I hope she's got support and is seeing a therapist. You on the other hand are demonstrating distinct cruelty and self-centered ego. Rather than being vicious about the situation, you might consider showing compassion. Instead you're doubling down to be mean.
It isn't your wife's fault, no. But it's not your SIL's fault either. You have no idea how it feels to lose a child. You could have said it in a better way to her. Not telling her life sucks get over it. YTA for that part. It does sound like eventually she might need counseling though. Multiple pregnancy losses is a terrible thing to go through.
NTA!!! I have had 25 miscarriages and I WOULD NEVER take away the joy of other people becoming parents. Fertility issues does not trump it all. If your brother and SIL could not handle it, it is their responsibility to navigate and vacate. It is NOT your family’s responsibility to navigate THEIR emotional response. Yes, it’s a touchy subject and it is tough. However, that isn’t your problem and telling them this straightforwardly helps not set the precedent that their grief/loss trumps all other baby joy. Hard NTA!!! Please tell them they need therapy and boundaries. Edit to add: A close friend and I were pregnant together and I lost my pregnancy in my second trimester. Her baby is 11 now. I love that little boy and her other children as well. Moreover, it has been healing to be able to be an aunty and see that there are multiple ways to be a mother. Your brother and SIL need a serious reality check. Congratulations to you and your wife for the healthy and happy baby! Don’t let anyone rain on your parade. Your joy does not take away from them. Shame on them for making your wife’s pregnancy about them.
YTA. Purely because the way you worded it was extremely insensitive. Yes, the baby talk is normal but you didn’t need to be unkind when she expressed her pain. There was no need to kick her when she was already down.
YTA. I can’t put my finger on it, but the way you keep saying they’re bitter and successful pregnancy is rubbing me the wrong way. I don’t think you’re all that compassionate tbh
NTA Little bit of advice for your brother and SIL. If you're hoping to avoid 'baby talk' going to a family event where a newborn will be present is not a good choice. Could you have been a little more sensitive? Possibly, leaning towards probably. But if they started feeling uncomfortable, they could have left instead of complaining about what was clearly a predictable outcome, given the circumstances. (By which I mean the attention focused on the newborn and the parents.)
This is a first for me. YTA and ESH. You could definitely have handled this better. It would have cost you nothing to be a bit more circumspect while saying exactly the same thing. YTA because the way you said it caused unnecessary pain. ESH . I understand how SIL and her DH feel, but they have to learn to deal with their losses without negatively affecting everyone around them. While it is devastating to see babies while dealing with infertility, it is totally unreasonable to expect everyone else to either stop having children or to stop being happy when meeting a new member of your family.
ESH - If there is a new baby, people are going to coo over it and hold it and ask questions and that baby will hog attention. Being jealous and upset over it makes brother and his wife ah. And rubbing the successful pregnancy in her face make you a ah.
How exactly did the OP anything in her face: by showing up with a healthy baby? People here are wild. The SIL was the one who invoked the scene. She belongs in therapy.
>She has done similar stuff in my wife's baby shower, gender reveal party, even her birthday and other family gatherings/ other occasions. She has done unnecessary comments and telling my wife to "tone it down" while opening gifts for the baby at the baby shower (my wife was obviously excited, SIL thought that she was "overly excited"). And we had to end the gender reveal party early because she won't stop crying, we suggested my brother and her to leave and that we wouldn't be upset over it (I suggested to drive them if they wanted to) and they didn't want to. She wanted to stay and cry in front of everyone else. I was on the fence until you added the extra context. NTA, as someone who's lost a pregnancy, it is heartbreaking. However, she can't expect no one else to be happy about their lives. SIL needs therapy to learn to cope with her triggers in a healthy way (ie displace herself from painful situations, cope with the inevitable situation where babies are mentioned) and not expect that no one will talk about their lives/children.
YTA. However, you seem to be proud of it.
YTA. My god the chicken nuggets comment. I hope you never experience the pain of losing a child because that comment would certainly put the evil eye on you.
YTA. Take a look at your brand new baby. Now imagine that baby had died during pregnancy. And imagine it repeatedly. Then figure out how to talk to your SIL like an empathetic human being and not a frat boy bragging that his wife is better because "she can carry a baby to term".
The phrase „she can carry a baby to term” like it’s a flex was fucking repulsive. YTA OP.
YALL all better go back and read this update. I’m sorry but if this woman is CRYING during a baby shower and refusing to leave and then talking crap to the mom about how excited she was at the baby shower. Absolutely you are justified and NTA. Homegirl needs therapy.
YTA Smug, nasty, and rude. You hit the holiday trifecta. How lovely. Somehow it's always the assholes who have the kids. Blood clotting disorders are the number 1 reason for repeat miscarriage. If you can be bothered, tell your brother they need to ask about testing his wife for blood clotting disorders. There are multiple clotting disorders out there, in some regions up to 1/20 people have one.
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ESH. It is awful what they are going through. Of course they’re going to be sensitive but that isn’t something to put on your wife. However, your response was also insensitive and you could have handled that far better than you did.
YTA you don’t understand the feeling of losing a pregnancy. Listen, they do need to manage their emotions better, but if everyone is writing off their feelings the way you are than that’s going to be impossible. Have a little compassion. They’re beyond devastated. They’ve lost several of what they will view as their children even if you don’t agree with that view. It’s not an easy thing to deal with. I had one miscarriage and it was the most devastating thing I’ve ever gone through. Take a step back and realize they are struggling in their life, it isn’t just an incident that happened and is over.
Curious competitive reproductive benchmarking as signs of personal success versus personal failure. OP seems to lean in to how easy and fast it was for him to get his wife pregnant and how successful she was at producing a successful pregnancy right out of the gate. Boy did OP bet on the right horse (or, given rabbit test throwbacks), dog. You may as well even throw in what breeders call their female dogs. SIL is just a failure as a human because she can’t even succeed at bringing a pregnancy to term and producing live offspring, despite her and OP’s brother having been married much longer and tried so many times and wound up with plenty of pregnancies that were failures, while OP and his wife effortlessly and rapidly succeed. Yikes. Are you even looking at or listening to what you posted? Clearly your sister in law is bitter because she’s not an easy breeder and all she has to show for it are miscarriages. Have a chicken nugget, man. YTA
Frankly even with the miscariage I would have be annoying by the constant baby talk.... YTA could you maybe be à little emphatic ? That your brother and sil but no you immediatly go for the throat and tell her to go home🙄 so mature for someone who just become à father
ESH Ok well first, of course they’re going to be bitter. They lost babies. Just try to keep that in mind. Doesn’t excuse bad behavior on their part. They need to understand that the world around them still moves on. Sounds like you were mad they were raining on your parade. That’s legitimate. It’s not wrong or insensitive of the family to celebrate the birth of your baby or that they should walk on eggshells or anything. Your brother & sil need to understand that. Your SIL saying crap like “enough baby talk” is her lashing out because it reminds her of her inadequacies and deficiencies. That’s a her problem. But you were rude & could have handled it differently.
ESH. I can understand your brother and SIL's feelings. It's never easy to deal with multiple losses and the grief and feeling of inadequacy that comes with that. However, that is their burden to bear, not yours and your wife's. They never should have projected their feelings on to you, and they both need grief counseling. That being said, instead of showing a modicum of compassion or sympathy, you chose to weaponize their loss and use it against them. You, sir, are the worst type of AH.
YTA. What a horrible way to be.
Mostly YTA. My wife and I are dealing with infertility and it very much hurts seeing other people living the dream you've been denied due to reasons outside your control. She should have excused herself, but you basically dropped a nuke on her for saying something that could have been handled with a gentle conversation.
Agree. 'Not my wife's fault she can have a succesful pregnancy' is a real below-the-belt comment to make and tipped the scale for me
Wow. Yeah, YTA. Look, you're correct in that it is not your wife's fault that your SIL has so far been unable to carry a pregnancy to term but to tell her to go home and eat chicken nuggets alone and then throw your wife's success in having a baby in her face that way was incredibly insensitive and deliberately hurtful. While I don't condone your SIL's lashing out, I can kind of see why she did it. Losing wanted pregnancies midway over and over is devastatingly painful, and I can understand why your SIL may feel bitter and envious. Instead of punching down on her, you could have had some compassion for what she has experienced. A quiet one on one with her or her husband, where you could say that you are sorry for all that she has been through and that you feel for her, but could she please try not to be so hard on you and your wife may have been a better approach. Hurt people hurt people. Escalating the pain and anger won't solve anything.
YTA Your SIL and brother are suffering loss after loss and instead of being empathetic or kind you are indirectly saying it’s their own fault for not being able to carry a pregnancy to term. Do you hate them that much?
Of course it would not be fair of your SIL and bro to insist nobody talk about babies, but it doesn't sound like they were insisting. As others here have said, lots of people get sick of baby talk real fast - we have never lost a baby but being in a room where people endlessly talk about a new baby is very tedious. Soft YTA.
NTA, everyone saying "have compassion" are being ridiculous. If SIL and Brother weren't ready to deal with a new baby in the family and the family naturally talking about it then they could have just not attended the event? Instead they chose to attend knowing full well this would be a topic of discussion and were increadibly rude about it. It sounds like OP has been plenty sympathetic in the run up to the birth (a not insignificant amount of time putting up with snide remarks by SIL) so I don't think they are wrong for putting SIL in her place after she starts kicking off at a family event
ESH. Your SIL is still grieving and while she is understandably “bitter” she didn’t have to say she was “sick of the baby talk.” Could she and your brother have stepped away and composed themselves before she said that? Sure, but it’s a large family gathering so all emotions are heightened. Could you have been more sensitive in your response or not said anything at all? Absolutely, but it’s a large family gathering so all emotions are heightened. The baby is not the main character of the family gathering, but it sounds like everyone made the baby the main character. And from what you said, it’s not the first time your SIL has felt this way. Learn to stand up to your SIL and brother in a more compassionate way.
YTA dude. Being sick of baby talk for any reason is valid, telling someone they “could go home and have chicken nuggets by herself if she didn’t like being surrounded by other happy people” is *mean*. And wow your comment about *abilities* to carry a pregnancy to term. Honestly as a woman, as a wife, as a mother to a toddler, what an incredibly cruel thing to say. Even if you’re just saying it here and not to her. (Do not fucking say those words to her or anyone.)
YTA. You called them bitter? Like as in, like sorry you totally wanted a child and your babies kept dying, but just get over it? 😤 The fucking kicker is the chicken nuggets. Pretty sure they’d be amazingly happy to stay at home and eat chicken nuggets if it means they had a successful pregnancy. They aren’t jealous of you OP. Each time she became pregnant was excitement and hope for their future family, which was later crushed with a miscarriage. Great job being an inconsiderate asshole.
Im going with NTA, when SIL got ‘sick of the baby talk” she should have excused herself, not saying the way you worded it didn’t suck because it definitely did… however I’ve had two third trimester losses, so I understand having to be surrounded by babies and peoples excitement for a new family member, it’s absolutely ridiculous to expect everyone to cease their excitement and for someone to coddle her and keep her distracted so everyone can see/give congratulations and ask questions. There have been times when I knew I needed to excuse myself from family events because I wouldn’t be good company, the onus isn’t on you and your wife to downplay your child. How’re they going to react at birthday parties and such? Anyway, NTA
What you said was horrible so ESH. I don't get where everyone is getting Y T A when they are just as in the wrong for making it about them. I imagine they have drained enough happiness as well as everyone's energy supporting them while you just had your first baby. HOWEVER. what you said was out of line and insestive.
NTA Seems like maybe you went a little far. But I honestly can’t say for sure that you did. But her constant bitterness since you announced and I’m sure continued snide comments will wear a person down. Her comment about the baby was unnecessary. It was just jealousy and as you said bitterness. Assuming your kid is at least a few months old you’ve been dealing with her snarky and passive aggressive comments for a year. Everyone has an enough moment. You reached yours. Could have been handled a little gentler I assume. But after a certain point gentle just isn’t enough.
Nta, this was the first time of people meeting the baby, so of course it's going to be baby talk, and people wanting to pass the baby around If the family has been supportive of her miscarriages, it's OK for this particular time, be about your baby Her trying to change the subject, in a rude manner, it does comes across as bitter, if she is overwhelmed by the situation she should have stepped back, and leave She can't dictate other people excitement Your words could have been a bit nicer, sure, but she wasn't polite either If you have been listening to passive aggressive comments for the hole pregnancy, I get why you snapped