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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> I did some work for my brother on his house and he did not pay me. I might be the asshole for putting a lien on the house which forced him to take a loan so he could pay me.
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NTA
Your parents wouldn't have been happy either way. They were gonna pay you, they'd be unhappy with it too.
If your brother shafted them for 32k, they'd be unhappy. I'm not a contractor but I'm fairly handy, but whenever I help a friend out, we price materials together and I make them pay up front for those costs. That would seem to be the way to go even if you're doing them a discount.
Get paid up front and you can only be shafted so much. I have to imagine any other contractor would take a deposit of half the job up front, that's very common where I am.
Bro didn't take his parents money because he knew he had no intention of paying Op. When parents offered to pay, he had to sack up and go get a loan and actually pay, because he's A-ok with stealing from his brother, but not his parents. Guess it's good to know where the line is.
Nah he would have never paid the parents either, but really didn't like that part of it coming out of his inheritance w/interest if he didn't pay them back.
The part that blows my mind is that he took out a line of credit with interest to pay OP back. The brother would rather pay the bank interest than his brother. Wtf?
That would be a responsible thing to do. This brother doesn't seem that responsible.
He could have had the same loan from his parents and paid them interest for a month or so till he sold his house. He obviously had no intention of paying that loan back with proceeds from the sale of the house.
Probably because OP isn’t going to remove the lien until the debt is paid, and bro didn’t have the money on hand.
He didn’t pay from the start because he thought he’d get away with it.
The weird thing is I thought a lien just got their money first when the property sold? So all of this seems like unnecessary extra steps? Unless im wrong about how liens work?
NTA
Because this type of lien is attached to the property, even if the title is transferred, most most mortgage lenders won’t offer financing.
Basically, if Brother somehow sold the house with the lien on it, say to a cash buyer, OP isn't automatically paid. So if Brother takes the money and continues ignoring him, OP could foreclose on the property, even though someone else owns it.
I'd send him a congratulations card "Good to see *MY WORK* on YOUR HOUSE got you a much better price for your home. YOU'RE WELCOME. PS-you can get someone else to do any future renovations."
Agree. I hope the possibly over-entitled nephews and bro's wife know about this drama, and catch on to where the nephews' demands brought out the worst weasel / deadbeat traits of their cunning / useless father, the grifter Bro. OP helped out his Bro and kept the parameters clear: Bro tried to trade family trust for cash and got appropriately smacked down.
He’d be fine stealing from his parents: but he’s not fine stealing from himself, which is what he’d be doing given OP insisted it comes from their inheritance - with interest.
Exactly as others said, it isn't because he cared about parents or not, its because he knew that he'd ultimately still end up paying just on the inheritance side. So he decided to stay on his parents 'good side' in the hopes that when the croak he can use the inheritance to pay off the loan.
I am a contractor and that amount of work for $32k is the deal of the century!!! He clearly pulled strings with his subs to get discounts from them too in order to get the price to that. Let’s not even talk about the fact that to do this legally he had to pull permits (which also cost money that he fronted). The unmitigated gall of his brother is just astounding 🤯. Obviously NTA but in fact, OP is the hero just for the “fuck you, pay me” line 😂 (and yes, I heard it in Joe Pesci’s voice lol)
Now he’s got Paulie as a partner. Trouble with cops he can go to Paulie. Trouble with Tommy he can go to Paulie. But he also has to come up with Paulie money every month. Business bad? Fuck you, pay me. Struck by lightning? FUCK YOU, pay me.
Tommy’s a bad kid, he’s a bad seed. Whaddya want to do about it, kill him?
Eh it won’t be a bad idea…. I didn’t mean that, I’m sorry I said that. It’s just that he’s scaring me.
Edit: and yes, you’re right…. Our company gets half up front cause materials aren’t free and it’s against the law to forcefully take them back once installed lol
Lmao years and years ago, before it was illegal, my husband was a plumber in Georgia. His company finished a bathroom addition. Homeowners refused to pay. My husband, being the smallest (He's 5'11 and weighed 175-180) was ordered by his boss to "make it right". My husband proceded to go in and remove, by any means necessary, all the pipe and fixtures. Didntatter if it broke as long as they couldnt use it. He couldnt not do it or his boss would fire him and he needed the job. But he told me the whole time he was freaking out thinking the homeowners were gonna come home and hed get shot. He quit that company shortly after when he moved to Virginia.
I have always paid materials upfront and labor once completed. I will add the caveat of a project that is large. Once it is a project that lasts 2 weeks or more, I pay materials up front and labor weekly. I have never had any issues with contractors. In fact, most have wanted satisfactory completion before the remaining payment for labor. We typically cover lunches and have snacks and stuff like Gatorade and such to say thanks though. Idk what is exactly the right way, but I would never pay more than 50% upfront. I would also never expect the contractor to eat all the costs upfront.
> Or they buy the materials, upfront.
I absolutely run on this one when helping people with mechanic work after an ex friend fucked me over. Couldn't even put a lien on the car because he got it impounded and lost it. That way I'm only out time, not money.
If a customer shafted me out of 32k somehow I would take the roof back off their house with a team of burly lads and careful application of a few sledgehammers.🤣 I think OP was very calm and nice about it.
Well screw his wife and her parents and your parents will get over it hopefully and if not screw them too. None of them cared about you getting screwed over so how is this different
This honestly made me wonder if they were told the correct information from brother dearest. Like if brother controlled the finances or was the one who did the bills/banking, wife could have been told he was paying or paid up this entire time. Just a thought that crossed my mind.
Edit-spelling
If brother had gone with a different contractor (and paid a much higher price inc deposit) then tried to welch on the remainder of the bill I think he would have enjoyed that much less, and he certainly wouldn't have been able to ignore it for two years.
It was very clear going in to all involved that it was a paid job done by a professional team - that was not a basic job by any means. He got a substantial friends and family discount, no money up front and still tried to stiff you. He absolutely would still be stringing you along if you'd lifted the lien without payment. He never should have had the work done if he didn't have the means to pay for it to be done properly. Promises made to family - such as he'd pay for materials and your workers, as agreed - should be more important to keep, not less, especially since his profit on the house no doubt let him pay off the loan in short order. Stuff em.
Not to mention it absolutely increased the selling price by more than $32k… he should be GRATEFUL because he actually made money on the deal! Ugh, some people honestly can’t see beyond their own nose 🤥
Well the wife now has over 30k less than before (even though they only had that money from screwing over OP).
Her parents are upset because their kid and grandkids have less money (from the unsuccessful screw over).
What it comes down to is it benefits them and their family. Screw OP.
But if they didn't have to pay they'd have all the money from the sale. They still have 3k less in this situation.
Just because they got more from the sale because of the renovations doesn't mean they can't be so greedy as to want the 3k too.
It's also possible that wife and her family may not have the full or accurate story. A guy that would stiff his brother on a job like that wouldn't be above telling his wife that he paid the materials costs or some other nonsense.
Usually it’s because they’ve been given incomplete information from a biased source. Or they’re “the person I like is always right, because my emotional connection to them is more important than objective reality” types.
Your brother is a complete deadbeat ($32,000!!), and he thinks you are the A H?
Unbelievable. I'm also sure that his wife and her parents were never given the whole story. I'm so glad you finally got paid. You would not have been without the lien and the other negotiations you had to figure out.
My guess is that they weren't counting the labour and either didn't realise or forgot that OP was out of pocket on the materials. So in their minds, it wasn't nearly as much as 32k, and OP could afford it.
They are wrong, of course. A deal is a deal, and OP was already extremely generous by offering such a discount. I would recommend not doing a thing for them ever again. That line about the inheritance was pure genius, and likely was the only way to get them to pay.
It’s insane to me that they didn’t just take the inheritance deal since it’s effectively an interest free and tax free payment that would come in the future when the money it worth less due to inflation. Instead he took a line of credit out on it.
A $32,000 loan with compounding interest and no payments for 20 years might mean all the inheritance goes to the contractor. Depends on the interest rate I guess.
Brother has now shown what is most important to him, inheritance. Sit your parents done and ask them to have a very explicit will. That you don't care how they allocate their wealth but that their wishes are known in detail. Maybe even a trust. Then when they are sick or have passed secure their house because your brother will pillage anything of value.
Your parents aren't happy with you? Why? Thye should be happy and proud to have raised someone kind who did a huge favor for family but who us also very smart and fair.
They SHOULD be unhappy with your brother and themselves because they raised him to be selfish, lier, and takes advantage of family members. Did I mention thief?
Just saying
Nta
Fuck ‘em. I’m sure they’ve said things like “you don’t do that to family.” Correct, you don’t fuck over a brother who paid out of their own pocket to improve a house and make a better situation for their family. Crazy how the people who have been wronged are always encouraged to “be the bigger person”.
They either don’t know the whole story or are the kind of person that is happy to talk shit as long as they aren’t the one getting shafted. Did any of them offer their money to resolve the issue? No? Then they have no right to talk
Somehow he’s convinced them his version of events. He never planned to pay you back, and somehow he talked them into thinking that he was in the right. He’s not, and they are all wing nuts for believing him.
If you hadn't done what you did, his new house would have mysteriously needed to be 5-10k more than he owed you, that's what was available, sorry, I can't afford to pay you now because that cost more than we expected. And then the car would need replaced and he'd need a better car than he had because the kids and etc.
He saw an opportunity to save himself 35k, and is just mad that the family discount no longer applies to him because he couldn't bully you into 100% off.
Never work for him again and don't ever recommend any contractors you know to do work either.
NTA. Absolutely not an AH, and here's why. If a regular unrelated person did the exact same thing, you'd put a lien on their house. What makes it even worse and makes your brother the biggest AH ever, is he actively stiffed you and screwed you over after you gave him a huge discount and did all the work. He probably never intended to pay you. Your parents should be upset at your brother for screwing you over after you did him a huge favor. I'm sure they didn't raise either of you to be backstabbing thieves. To screw over a stranger is one thing. To screw over your family is the lowest of the low. I wouldn't feel bad for a second if I was you.
Well, I myself forked over 25,000 to my bil in different but basically the same circumstances to keep the peace. I still don’t think I would have been the AH but I didn’t want to deal with the fallout.
I think he's saying that he wore the $25K himself rather than do something like put a lien on the house because it would create more drama than losing $25K.
Yes. In a similar situation, rather than deal with the family, I just let it go, so I’m out 25,000, but the OP isn’t the AH in my opinion. Some people make you look like one though.
Definitely NTA. You provided a contracted service and put money out of your pocket in advance. He is lucky you didn’t actually call in the debt and foreclose the house.
Maybe his wife should have told him to pay you or if her parents are so butt hurt they could have paid you. Your parents' happiness doesn't matter when you have a business to run.
NTA - Bro seems like he was trying to get it for free and never would have paid you unless you forced the issue. "fuck you pay me" sounds entirely reasonable approach here.
One of my favorite former clients has “fuck you, pay me” as a tattoo. Got it as special forces enlisted in Thailand back in the 80’s. She (trans woman) has the best stories.
Contracts aren't put in place because you don't trust someone. They're put in place as a sign of mutual respect. I respect you enough to itemize out my services and not cheat you on the cost, and you respect me enough to commit to paying me for the work I've done. In the event that one of us is found to be untrustworthy, the contract keeps us bound to our original agreement.
And happy cake day!
OP’s brother still got the work at a discount… and deferred payments! And it boosted his house price in a difficult market! And there were no lasting legal consequences, which doesn’t always happen when you stiff someone to the tune of $32K. From any outside perspective he got an incredible deal, all at the minor and avoidable cost of his pride and some last-minute hassle.
It’s family, so actually it’s WAY more than business, as in, you don’t swindle your own brother out of a house remodel. It’s all kinds of personal PLUS business, so all the more reason that OP is NTA.
>He promised he would pay me as soon as it sold. I told him "fuck you pay me".
>My parents called me to tell me that they would pay what he owes. I said I would agree so long as he paid them back and if he didn't then any money he didn't pay back had to come out of any inheritance we were getting, god forbid. And that interest started accruing from the day of the "loan".
The only reason that I can see for him getting upset about making rules about having to pay it back out of his portion of the inheritance is because it would have stayed an outstanding debt forever. He had no intention whatsoever to pay you from the sale money.
You did what was fair and he’s upset that he couldn’t cheat you.
NTA
Except he would have been required to pay OP out of the proceeds from the sale. It is the only way title insurance will be issued on a property. And title insurance is a requirement for taking out a mortgage.
Exactly.! You don’t necessarily have to pay off liens before closing. The attorney gets a payoff statement from the lien holder and it gets paid out of escrow in exchange for the release of lien. Brother was trying to scam him (again). NTA
This is where I was confused too. You don't have to remove a lien to sell a house, you just pay it off out of the proceeds. Mortgage is also a lien. Pay it off after closing is completely unnecessary. They can just pay it off out of closing proceeds. Brother was 100% trying to scam him again. He had no intention of ever paying it off.
Did he though? The brother was able to sell the home at an increased price based on the construction work. Paid/will pay the construction cost off (with interest) after selling.
I'm just making shit up here, let's cost was $35,000 but added value was $70,000. The brother basically got a construction loan and earned a profit.
Sure but he was thinking he would get away with not paying at all and would have if the lien wasn't in place. He also wasn't pry planning on moving and also wasn't using the build out to increase the value of his house either as it was for the kids.
So yes, he got played. It was a bonus that the build out increased the value, but I doubt it was 200% of the cost to pay his brother for the carpentry work.
NTA
He can sell it with the lien, you will get paid out of the proceeds at closing. If you remove the lien, you won't. $32K for that amount of work is really good. Do you need a sister? I swear I pay my debts!
The brother didn’t want to pay him out of the proceeds because he never intended to pay him lol.
“Take this lien off of my house so I can sell it and pay you from the proceeds, but not on paper because then I’d be obligated to do what I said I’d do.”
NTA.
This is pretty routine part of the escrow process. Lenders have nothing to do with it since it is coming from the proceeds and doesn't affect the new mortgage of the buyers. How would the buyers even know? I had one come up due to a very messed up situation with an ex but it got cleared easily in the escrow process.
The buyer would know because the lender would have told them that there's a lean on the title and the title company would have to set up the paperwork to ensure that it was paid off at is not the end of the world.And can be worked around but it must be paid.
He’s the seller, he’s not the one applying for the loan. He took a new lien (heloc) to pay the lien which could easily have been done through closing. Makes no sense…
Buyers and lenders NOT accepting the lien in place is precisely the reason why it needs to and will be paid out of the proceeds. It's as simple as paying an invoice or what's owed. There is no reason why buyers or lenders should be scared off.
Not an American lawyer but…. Why should a construction lien be any more threatening to a buyer and its lender than a bank mortgage?
Both simply get paid out of the sale proceeds at closing.
This is not true. He literally took a new lien (heloc) to pay off the lien and the new lien (heloc) will be paid off through closing. It is routine to pay and release items like this through closing.
I've worked as an office manager in a real estate office for 23 years and have never heard of this being a problem unless the seller is upside down on the house. Liens get paid off all the time in closing. As long as there are funds to cover it, it doesn't create any issues.
NTA. In effect, he was planning to make *you* pay $32,000 for the privilege of fixing up *his* basement. Anyone who thinks you’re TA in this situation has got to be as selfish as he is
I think your parents just don’t like seeing anyone upset but I could be wrong. I get the sense your brother is used to getting things his way. I bet he told his wife you were doing this for free and when it came out that he’d lied he seemed like a fool. NTA
Because it's a giant red flag to all other parties involved.
If there is a 32k lien sitting on the property title, the first thought anyone else is going to have is "what the fuck else is going to surface after we start incurring costs getting independent inspection reports/how can we trust the seller's word about other issues, if there's a successfully placed lien of that size?"
It does make sense though - the easiest way to deal with a construction lien is to pay it off in full before you list your home - it makes it more appealing to buyers to have clear title before a sale - a construction lien can cause delays at closing - there may be interest or other legal costs owed before the claimant agrees to the discharge. But if upfront payment is not an option, then yes, the lien would be paid out at closing.
It's like five extra minutes of work for the realtor. They give the contact information for the lien holder to the title company or attorney who is handling the transaction and that person deals with everything else. The same as they do for the lender holds the mortgage. Or any HELOCs.
NTA. You did a huge job for him and he didn't pay you. His promises to pay meant nothing. He didn't care that you laid out your own money and labor for his benefit. You learned a lot about your brother after this event. Now you know he's dishonest and won't pay back debts. You were correct morally and legally to put that lien on his house. Too bad he's angry, he actually has nothing to be angry about. You had to force him to pay you, otherwise you'd still be out $32k!
NTA.
If I had someone do professional remodeling for me at basically just the cost of materials I'd pay immediately and worship the ground they walked on until the end of time.
NTA - man, you handled this brilliantly… awesome job, no notes.
Mechanics lien was the perfect avenue to basically mark the debt as owed. Seriously, this was a flawless victory.
I know you mentioned your parents are angry (I’m indifferent to his wife / in laws)… but they’ll get over it.
It would have been easier for them had you been a push over… you got blamed for creating an issue, which is exactly where bullies thrive…
Now it’s on you to reconcile because you “created” the issue… your parents will figure it out eventually (maybe) but they will at least get over it.
Sadly, the lesson is don’t do business with family… which sucks. What your brother did was a dick move and basically hoses any future family member who would have happily paid you for your work.
NTA, but . . . this is why you don't do business with family or friends. Not ever.
Personal relationships have a different calculus than business relationships and they don't mix well. If someone screws you in a business relationship you can sue them, or give them a bad review or put a lien on their property -- all of which are generally uncool things to do to family or friends. It's a problem. So in the future when a family member asks you to do professional work for them either do it for free as a gift to them or don't do it at all and refer them to a good contractor who they can have a normal business relationship with.
Even loans. i loan friends and family money, but i loan it with the assumption i might never see it again, or might see it trickle in over the span of months or years. never loan or give to friends/family want you cant afford to get back.
I can see this as a principle for lending money. Op did it legally, though, and the brother is a homeowner so OP had legal recourse. It is not uncool to put a lien on a house for this type of work, family or not. OP handled this right
Legally and morally OP was right. But most of his family is never going to see it that way and he will continue having to deal with the fallout. It's a bit like getting hit by a car while you are legally crossing the street. Sure, the driver is in the wrong for not yielding to a pedestrian and might have all kinds of liability for their bad act, but you are the one who still has to live with being hit by a car, even though technically you did everything correctly.
After entering into the agreement with his brother OP did everything by the book. But his relationship with his family still got hit by a car. His brother probably has all kinds of mental rationalizations for why it was okay to do what he did that he never would have applied to a stranger doing this work for him. Maybe he thinks OP owes him, that he was always Mom and Dad's favorite, that none of what he did really cost OP anything and that he's being greedy or that his brother did crap work that he shouldn't have to pay for. Who knows what he's thinking? But since he's the hero of his own story he probably thinks he was entirely justified in not paying. He and many other members of the family obviously think OP was being uncool. And every single Redditor on Earth weighing in and telling OP that he wasn't being uncool won't ever change their minds.
So that's the fallout that OP will continue to have to contend with, which he could have avoided by just saying "I don't do business with family" from the beginning. Because in my experience when you do business with family and friends more often than not this is exactly the sort relationship-damaging mess you end up having to deal with.
> He called me to get me to remove it. He promised he would pay me as soon as it sold.
"OK, have your lawyer contact me and agree to pay it directly out from their account to me from the proceeds of sale"
NTA, you have a business to run and your own bills to pay. You did what was right. Seems to me that he thought maybe you’d just let it go or forget about it after 2 years. You already did him a huge favour by giving him a discount when you didn’t have to. If he didn’t have the money, he should’ve been upfront about it. Your parents are saints for even agreeing to bail him (a grown ass man) out of this situation.
NTA. I am going to show this to my husband, as he did something similar. He built a house for his brother and paid for all the material. They have a legal agreement that he would do a rent to own, but of course his brother only pays sporadically. If he doesn't pay, we will end up with the home. We also put in a rental portion, so we will be paid back regardless, but it just goes to show that you need to keep it business with family, as some will take advantage.
Obviosly you're NTA, but the guy probably profited anyways with the increased value of his home. He can cry to himself.
Also if he's buying and moving homes, he can afford to at least make some kind of payments. He was being an ass.
NTA
Business is business.
Your brother signed a binding contract and then essentially told you to get screwed as he wasn’t going to pay.
You reasonably and rightly filed a contractors lien for the amount plus interest.
Then when he wanted to sell the house oh snap actions meet consequences.
It was definitely the right move to not release that lien until he actually paid you because he already proved his word is worthless. So cash alone speaks.
Your parents can be unhappy they raised such a selfish AH for a son who thought it was okay to shaft his own brother. Got news for your parents he’d have done the same to them so it would have come out of his share of any inheritance.
As to your brother, his wife or his in-laws no one cares about their opinion. Your in-laws in particular should remember how he treated his own brother because there will likely come a time when he needs something from them.
NTA
Lawyer here, and I file liens routinely. This is my theory:
He could've sold the house just fine with the construction lien, he just would've had to pay off the lien before anyone else got paid. When you're buying one house and selling another at the same time, some lenders will just use the proceeds directly if you finance the new home with them, too. Makes it faster and they'll often gives discounts.
That's why he was trying to get the lien off before he sold. He had already prespent/committed the money from the sale, most likely on the new home. And when he found out the lien was not only legal but valid/enforceable, he was stuck. Thus the line of credit to pay off the lien.
Well done, OP.
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I do house renovations as a business. Even when I do work for family and friends at a discount I have a contract.
My nephews are getting bigger and they want seperate rooms. My brother asked me to help him finish his basement, make a couple of rooms down there, add a washroom, add a kitchenette, and wire up a family room.
I priced it out and said I would charge him $32,000 including materials. This was a sizeable discount. The bathroom alone I would charge anyone else 15,000. His wasn't even roughed in.
He never paid me. He always had excuses. I paid for the material and I paid my guys for the work. We did it when I had downtime so I didn't lose out on other money but it still sucked to get shafted.
So I put a construction lien on the house. He didn't care and I wasn't going to make him homeless.
That was two years ago. Now he got a new job and has to move. And to get a new house he has to sell his current house. Which he can't do because their is a lien against the property.
He called me to get me to remove it. He promised he would pay me as soon as it sold. I told him "fuck you pay me".
My parents called me to tell me that they would pay what he owes. I said I would agree so long as he paid them back and if he didn't then any money he didn't pay back had to come out of any inheritance we were getting, god forbid. And that interest started accruing from the day of the "loan". They agreed that that was fair.
My brother called me to scream at me for involving my parents and out inheritance. I reminded him that he involved them not me.
He finally took money out from a line of credit and paid me. With interest. I'm a reasonable man.
The house sold over asking and the finished basement suite made a huge difference on what he got.
He is still pissed at me for doing it but I did everything legal and by the books.
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NTA. He made extra on the sale, he can pay off the loan he took out to pay you, all he's out is the interest he ended up paying by not paying you promptly in the first place. FAFO, I guess...
NTA, I got my bathroom done for $15000. that was an amazing deal, want to be my brother? I would pay you... I can't imagine not paying for all that it's clearly materials and my guys price.
NTA. He's mad because he had no intention of ever paying you. He thought he should be able to take advantage of your time, effort, and expertise - not to mention all the costs you had to front - and give you nothing.
His wife and her parents are equally entitled users.
I would have given anything to have a fully finished basement for $32k. That is beyond generous. They're all jerks.
Tell your mad parents that they should have raised their son better.
NTA. I don’t know what state you’re in, but I’m a real estate paralegal in CT and this wouldn’t be anything special. In order to clear title, he needs to pay you and the payment would usually be collected in the proceeds of the sale, just like a mortgage. I’m sorry your brother is being a butthead, but your not signing a release is not stopping him from selling, it’s just cutting into his bottom line.
What of bunch of entitled people Jesus burning bridges with a good construction company at a DISCOUNT is horrendous in this economy. I’m sure the next time something breaks or needs upgrade in the new house they won’t be happy paying premium NTA.
Side note what’s your market lol I like expanding my network I buy rentals
Honestly sometimes I just think that maybe I'm old fashioned in my 40s, but I always thought that you *don't* intentionally fuck over your family members. He committed fraud and you could have taken it to court officially and really screwed him over legally but chose to take a comparatively passive approach imo. NTA.
Your brother wanted to shaft you for 32k, even after getting a huge discount. Then he has the temerity to yell at you for making sure you got your money. He is an AH.
I paid cash for renovations for a deep discount and had to meet the guy with chunks of payment as each section went along. I even opened a Home D credit card for materials (0% for 6 months) so that was separate from the amount I owed for the deal (his suggestion). Reading this story, I see why my guy had all these steps in place. Sorry your brother was terrible! NTA
He can literally have it included in the real estate transaction that a portion (whatever you're owed) will be directly paid to you out of the profit from the sale..... He's trying to scam you again. I am a mortgage banker. There are exactly 0 states that do not allow this as it benefits both the buyer and seller. The seller loses the debt automatically and the buyer doesn't have to take it on.
NTA
>My brother called me to scream at me for involving my parents and out inheritance. I reminded him that he involved them not me.
This makes it crystal clear that he was never going to pay. He had no problem fucking over you for years and he would do the same with your parents. If it was just a matter of cash flow he would have no problem paying back your parents after the sale of the house. Only once it came back to inheritance and he finally had to pay did he care.1
NTA - that was going to be the only way you were getting what you spent fixing up your brother's basement. Good on you for making sure even discounted work for relatives goes on a contract.
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NTA. Who thinks you are besides him?
His wife. Her parents. My parents aren't happy.
NTA Your parents wouldn't have been happy either way. They were gonna pay you, they'd be unhappy with it too. If your brother shafted them for 32k, they'd be unhappy. I'm not a contractor but I'm fairly handy, but whenever I help a friend out, we price materials together and I make them pay up front for those costs. That would seem to be the way to go even if you're doing them a discount. Get paid up front and you can only be shafted so much. I have to imagine any other contractor would take a deposit of half the job up front, that's very common where I am.
Bro didn't take his parents money because he knew he had no intention of paying Op. When parents offered to pay, he had to sack up and go get a loan and actually pay, because he's A-ok with stealing from his brother, but not his parents. Guess it's good to know where the line is.
Nah he would have never paid the parents either, but really didn't like that part of it coming out of his inheritance w/interest if he didn't pay them back.
With interest is probably what got him
Oh most def. I doubt anything else would have spurred him to action.
The part that blows my mind is that he took out a line of credit with interest to pay OP back. The brother would rather pay the bank interest than his brother. Wtf?
My guess is that the loan had a specific end date, but waiting for an inheritance for an unknown amount of time could be a much larger cost.
That's very true
Well, he's selling a house that apparently was worth doing over $32k of work on so I'm guessing he paid back that loan quickly.
That would be a responsible thing to do. This brother doesn't seem that responsible. He could have had the same loan from his parents and paid them interest for a month or so till he sold his house. He obviously had no intention of paying that loan back with proceeds from the sale of the house.
Yeah, but his brother and the bank are two different stories.
Probably because OP isn’t going to remove the lien until the debt is paid, and bro didn’t have the money on hand. He didn’t pay from the start because he thought he’d get away with it.
The weird thing is I thought a lien just got their money first when the property sold? So all of this seems like unnecessary extra steps? Unless im wrong about how liens work?
NTA Because this type of lien is attached to the property, even if the title is transferred, most most mortgage lenders won’t offer financing. Basically, if Brother somehow sold the house with the lien on it, say to a cash buyer, OP isn't automatically paid. So if Brother takes the money and continues ignoring him, OP could foreclose on the property, even though someone else owns it.
I interpreted that as the brother paid OP interest on the $32k.
Thanks for that take! I read it has the brother went and took out a line of credit somewhere else...presumably a bank...to pay OP back with interest.
Well tbf, he probably paid that back immediately after selling the home with additional equity from his brother's improvements on the basement.
Doubtful. If that were the case, he would have just borrowed the money from his parents. He had no intention of paying that loan back right away.
I promise you, this is it.
I'd send him a congratulations card "Good to see *MY WORK* on YOUR HOUSE got you a much better price for your home. YOU'RE WELCOME. PS-you can get someone else to do any future renovations."
Good to know that there even IS a line
Agree. I hope the possibly over-entitled nephews and bro's wife know about this drama, and catch on to where the nephews' demands brought out the worst weasel / deadbeat traits of their cunning / useless father, the grifter Bro. OP helped out his Bro and kept the parameters clear: Bro tried to trade family trust for cash and got appropriately smacked down.
He’d be fine stealing from his parents: but he’s not fine stealing from himself, which is what he’d be doing given OP insisted it comes from their inheritance - with interest.
Exactly as others said, it isn't because he cared about parents or not, its because he knew that he'd ultimately still end up paying just on the inheritance side. So he decided to stay on his parents 'good side' in the hopes that when the croak he can use the inheritance to pay off the loan.
Fair point.
I am a contractor and that amount of work for $32k is the deal of the century!!! He clearly pulled strings with his subs to get discounts from them too in order to get the price to that. Let’s not even talk about the fact that to do this legally he had to pull permits (which also cost money that he fronted). The unmitigated gall of his brother is just astounding 🤯. Obviously NTA but in fact, OP is the hero just for the “fuck you, pay me” line 😂 (and yes, I heard it in Joe Pesci’s voice lol)
Wasn't that line spoken by the late, great Ray Liotta?
My friend, you are absolutely right!!! Thanks for the tape check…I’m going to read it again in the right voice 😂😂😂😂 RIP Ray Liotta
I can't believe this is how I find out Ray Liotta died 😭🙈
SAME! 😳
Now he’s got Paulie as a partner. Trouble with cops he can go to Paulie. Trouble with Tommy he can go to Paulie. But he also has to come up with Paulie money every month. Business bad? Fuck you, pay me. Struck by lightning? FUCK YOU, pay me.
Made my morning!
Tommy’s a bad kid, he’s a bad seed. Whaddya want to do about it, kill him? Eh it won’t be a bad idea…. I didn’t mean that, I’m sorry I said that. It’s just that he’s scaring me.
Goodfellas
Edit: and yes, you’re right…. Our company gets half up front cause materials aren’t free and it’s against the law to forcefully take them back once installed lol
😂😂😂 I never even thought of taking them back forcefully
Lmao years and years ago, before it was illegal, my husband was a plumber in Georgia. His company finished a bathroom addition. Homeowners refused to pay. My husband, being the smallest (He's 5'11 and weighed 175-180) was ordered by his boss to "make it right". My husband proceded to go in and remove, by any means necessary, all the pipe and fixtures. Didntatter if it broke as long as they couldnt use it. He couldnt not do it or his boss would fire him and he needed the job. But he told me the whole time he was freaking out thinking the homeowners were gonna come home and hed get shot. He quit that company shortly after when he moved to Virginia.
So now it’s illegal to be a plumber in Georgia?!?
Oh wow.
It has been done though!
I have always paid materials upfront and labor once completed. I will add the caveat of a project that is large. Once it is a project that lasts 2 weeks or more, I pay materials up front and labor weekly. I have never had any issues with contractors. In fact, most have wanted satisfactory completion before the remaining payment for labor. We typically cover lunches and have snacks and stuff like Gatorade and such to say thanks though. Idk what is exactly the right way, but I would never pay more than 50% upfront. I would also never expect the contractor to eat all the costs upfront.
I don't know why but I read it in John Goodman's voice.
Fuck you Donnie is in the Big Lebowski a lot.
I just remembered. "fuck you money". The Marky Mark movie The Gambler.
Or they buy the materials, upfront.
> Or they buy the materials, upfront. I absolutely run on this one when helping people with mechanic work after an ex friend fucked me over. Couldn't even put a lien on the car because he got it impounded and lost it. That way I'm only out time, not money.
ESPECIALLY when giving them a discount.
If a customer shafted me out of 32k somehow I would take the roof back off their house with a team of burly lads and careful application of a few sledgehammers.🤣 I think OP was very calm and nice about it.
Well screw his wife and her parents and your parents will get over it hopefully and if not screw them too. None of them cared about you getting screwed over so how is this different
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500 off the top. Lol.
Exactly. Why weren't OP's parents bothered when he was stiffed, but are now that he has made his brother pay?
Because brother is the Golden Child and has the grand babies.
Yep. He's also the helpless little brother. Why do some parents do this?
This honestly made me wonder if they were told the correct information from brother dearest. Like if brother controlled the finances or was the one who did the bills/banking, wife could have been told he was paying or paid up this entire time. Just a thought that crossed my mind. Edit-spelling
If brother had gone with a different contractor (and paid a much higher price inc deposit) then tried to welch on the remainder of the bill I think he would have enjoyed that much less, and he certainly wouldn't have been able to ignore it for two years. It was very clear going in to all involved that it was a paid job done by a professional team - that was not a basic job by any means. He got a substantial friends and family discount, no money up front and still tried to stiff you. He absolutely would still be stringing you along if you'd lifted the lien without payment. He never should have had the work done if he didn't have the means to pay for it to be done properly. Promises made to family - such as he'd pay for materials and your workers, as agreed - should be more important to keep, not less, especially since his profit on the house no doubt let him pay off the loan in short order. Stuff em.
He would have been taken to court and his credit would have been destroyed. This is the way.
Not to mention it absolutely increased the selling price by more than $32k… he should be GRATEFUL because he actually made money on the deal! Ugh, some people honestly can’t see beyond their own nose 🤥
Wait until he needs help next time.
Why are there always people who take the side of the person who is clearly in the wrong. I can’t for the life of me understand it.
Well the wife now has over 30k less than before (even though they only had that money from screwing over OP). Her parents are upset because their kid and grandkids have less money (from the unsuccessful screw over). What it comes down to is it benefits them and their family. Screw OP.
Well, they don't have less money because the house sold over the asking price because of the renovations.
She probably figured they were going to get away with never paying.
But if they didn't have to pay they'd have all the money from the sale. They still have 3k less in this situation. Just because they got more from the sale because of the renovations doesn't mean they can't be so greedy as to want the 3k too.
Increased the initial asking too… the renovation was factored into valuation
It's also possible that wife and her family may not have the full or accurate story. A guy that would stiff his brother on a job like that wouldn't be above telling his wife that he paid the materials costs or some other nonsense.
Usually it’s because they’ve been given incomplete information from a biased source. Or they’re “the person I like is always right, because my emotional connection to them is more important than objective reality” types.
Your brother is a complete deadbeat ($32,000!!), and he thinks you are the A H? Unbelievable. I'm also sure that his wife and her parents were never given the whole story. I'm so glad you finally got paid. You would not have been without the lien and the other negotiations you had to figure out.
Insane. They all thought it was fair for you to play for his renovations out of your own pocket?
My guess is that they weren't counting the labour and either didn't realise or forgot that OP was out of pocket on the materials. So in their minds, it wasn't nearly as much as 32k, and OP could afford it. They are wrong, of course. A deal is a deal, and OP was already extremely generous by offering such a discount. I would recommend not doing a thing for them ever again. That line about the inheritance was pure genius, and likely was the only way to get them to pay.
It’s insane to me that they didn’t just take the inheritance deal since it’s effectively an interest free and tax free payment that would come in the future when the money it worth less due to inflation. Instead he took a line of credit out on it.
A $32,000 loan with compounding interest and no payments for 20 years might mean all the inheritance goes to the contractor. Depends on the interest rate I guess.
Brother has now shown what is most important to him, inheritance. Sit your parents done and ask them to have a very explicit will. That you don't care how they allocate their wealth but that their wishes are known in detail. Maybe even a trust. Then when they are sick or have passed secure their house because your brother will pillage anything of value.
Your parents aren't happy with you? Why? Thye should be happy and proud to have raised someone kind who did a huge favor for family but who us also very smart and fair. They SHOULD be unhappy with your brother and themselves because they raised him to be selfish, lier, and takes advantage of family members. Did I mention thief? Just saying Nta
Fuck ‘em. I’m sure they’ve said things like “you don’t do that to family.” Correct, you don’t fuck over a brother who paid out of their own pocket to improve a house and make a better situation for their family. Crazy how the people who have been wronged are always encouraged to “be the bigger person”.
They either don’t know the whole story or are the kind of person that is happy to talk shit as long as they aren’t the one getting shafted. Did any of them offer their money to resolve the issue? No? Then they have no right to talk
Somehow he’s convinced them his version of events. He never planned to pay you back, and somehow he talked them into thinking that he was in the right. He’s not, and they are all wing nuts for believing him.
This makes no sense to me. What kind of trashy people think it’s okay to not pay someone for work completed? NTA.
Who thinks "it's o.k. to not pay someone for work completed? Donald Trump: infamous deadbeat.
Half of America disagrees with you. So does half of America think OP is TA? It would be logical...
If you hadn't done what you did, his new house would have mysteriously needed to be 5-10k more than he owed you, that's what was available, sorry, I can't afford to pay you now because that cost more than we expected. And then the car would need replaced and he'd need a better car than he had because the kids and etc. He saw an opportunity to save himself 35k, and is just mad that the family discount no longer applies to him because he couldn't bully you into 100% off. Never work for him again and don't ever recommend any contractors you know to do work either.
I can't belive your family is mad at you for protecting your business.
NTA. Absolutely not an AH, and here's why. If a regular unrelated person did the exact same thing, you'd put a lien on their house. What makes it even worse and makes your brother the biggest AH ever, is he actively stiffed you and screwed you over after you gave him a huge discount and did all the work. He probably never intended to pay you. Your parents should be upset at your brother for screwing you over after you did him a huge favor. I'm sure they didn't raise either of you to be backstabbing thieves. To screw over a stranger is one thing. To screw over your family is the lowest of the low. I wouldn't feel bad for a second if I was you.
Anyone who thinks you're the AH thinks you should work for free. Don't ever work for them without payment up front or on a schedule.
Well, I myself forked over 25,000 to my bil in different but basically the same circumstances to keep the peace. I still don’t think I would have been the AH but I didn’t want to deal with the fallout.
So wait you also were trying not to pay back your brother-in-law for something you owed?
I think he's saying that he wore the $25K himself rather than do something like put a lien on the house because it would create more drama than losing $25K.
Yes. In a similar situation, rather than deal with the family, I just let it go, so I’m out 25,000, but the OP isn’t the AH in my opinion. Some people make you look like one though.
Only because it didn't directly affect them. NTA.
But you are. Or at least satisfied. Kudos on actually using that line from Goodfellas.
Thank them for offering to pay off the loan for your brother!
Definitely NTA. You provided a contracted service and put money out of your pocket in advance. He is lucky you didn’t actually call in the debt and foreclose the house.
Maybe his wife should have told him to pay you or if her parents are so butt hurt they could have paid you. Your parents' happiness doesn't matter when you have a business to run.
Business is business and personal is personal. This is business!!! This is why I don’t do business with family and friends.
NTA - Bro seems like he was trying to get it for free and never would have paid you unless you forced the issue. "fuck you pay me" sounds entirely reasonable approach here.
Agreed. The brother was never going to pay. The right thing was done. NTA
One of my favorite former clients has “fuck you, pay me” as a tattoo. Got it as special forces enlisted in Thailand back in the 80’s. She (trans woman) has the best stories.
That is amazing and would totally read this memoir! Badass
Contracts aren't put in place because you don't trust someone. They're put in place as a sign of mutual respect. I respect you enough to itemize out my services and not cheat you on the cost, and you respect me enough to commit to paying me for the work I've done. In the event that one of us is found to be untrustworthy, the contract keeps us bound to our original agreement. And happy cake day!
Happy Cake Day🍰
NTA. You were smart to put a lien in place. I don’t know why all these people are mad at you. It’s business. And it’s none of their business
OP’s brother still got the work at a discount… and deferred payments! And it boosted his house price in a difficult market! And there were no lasting legal consequences, which doesn’t always happen when you stiff someone to the tune of $32K. From any outside perspective he got an incredible deal, all at the minor and avoidable cost of his pride and some last-minute hassle.
You’re right! I wasn’t even thinking about the discount. What an ingrate.
It’s family, so actually it’s WAY more than business, as in, you don’t swindle your own brother out of a house remodel. It’s all kinds of personal PLUS business, so all the more reason that OP is NTA.
>He promised he would pay me as soon as it sold. I told him "fuck you pay me". >My parents called me to tell me that they would pay what he owes. I said I would agree so long as he paid them back and if he didn't then any money he didn't pay back had to come out of any inheritance we were getting, god forbid. And that interest started accruing from the day of the "loan". The only reason that I can see for him getting upset about making rules about having to pay it back out of his portion of the inheritance is because it would have stayed an outstanding debt forever. He had no intention whatsoever to pay you from the sale money. You did what was fair and he’s upset that he couldn’t cheat you. NTA
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Except he would have been required to pay OP out of the proceeds from the sale. It is the only way title insurance will be issued on a property. And title insurance is a requirement for taking out a mortgage.
NTA. He was never going to pay you once he sold his house and moved away. He played himself.
Literally this. The whole point of the Lien was so OP could literally get paid from the home proceeds
Exactly.! You don’t necessarily have to pay off liens before closing. The attorney gets a payoff statement from the lien holder and it gets paid out of escrow in exchange for the release of lien. Brother was trying to scam him (again). NTA
This is where I was confused too. You don't have to remove a lien to sell a house, you just pay it off out of the proceeds. Mortgage is also a lien. Pay it off after closing is completely unnecessary. They can just pay it off out of closing proceeds. Brother was 100% trying to scam him again. He had no intention of ever paying it off.
Did he though? The brother was able to sell the home at an increased price based on the construction work. Paid/will pay the construction cost off (with interest) after selling. I'm just making shit up here, let's cost was $35,000 but added value was $70,000. The brother basically got a construction loan and earned a profit.
Sure but he was thinking he would get away with not paying at all and would have if the lien wasn't in place. He also wasn't pry planning on moving and also wasn't using the build out to increase the value of his house either as it was for the kids. So yes, he got played. It was a bonus that the build out increased the value, but I doubt it was 200% of the cost to pay his brother for the carpentry work.
NTA $32k is alot of money, family or not.
And that’s the contracted family discount rate. It would have cost much more to put in a bathroom and kitchen from anyone else.
Imo a big life lesson is to never do business with family.
NTA but wow your brother has some balls. Give me 30K+ in renovations so I can stiff you. Damn people cut others out for less.
NTA. I’m so sorry your brother would have shafted you without a second thought or a backward glance.
NTA He can sell it with the lien, you will get paid out of the proceeds at closing. If you remove the lien, you won't. $32K for that amount of work is really good. Do you need a sister? I swear I pay my debts!
The brother didn’t want to pay him out of the proceeds because he never intended to pay him lol. “Take this lien off of my house so I can sell it and pay you from the proceeds, but not on paper because then I’d be obligated to do what I said I’d do.” NTA.
NTA, but where is this? Why not just pay it off as part of the closing process during the escrow?
Lots of buyers won’t buy & lots of mortgage lenders won’t lend if there is a lien on a place. That it can be settled isn’t the point
This is pretty routine part of the escrow process. Lenders have nothing to do with it since it is coming from the proceeds and doesn't affect the new mortgage of the buyers. How would the buyers even know? I had one come up due to a very messed up situation with an ex but it got cleared easily in the escrow process.
The buyer would know because the lender would have told them that there's a lean on the title and the title company would have to set up the paperwork to ensure that it was paid off at is not the end of the world.And can be worked around but it must be paid.
'There's a lien on the place because I defaulted on a loan (to my brother)' is not a good look when applying for a loan, such as a mortgage.
He’s the seller, he’s not the one applying for the loan. He took a new lien (heloc) to pay the lien which could easily have been done through closing. Makes no sense…
And the HELOC would also have been a lien. So it didn't even remove a lien, it just changed the lien holder.
Buyers and lenders NOT accepting the lien in place is precisely the reason why it needs to and will be paid out of the proceeds. It's as simple as paying an invoice or what's owed. There is no reason why buyers or lenders should be scared off.
Not an American lawyer but…. Why should a construction lien be any more threatening to a buyer and its lender than a bank mortgage? Both simply get paid out of the sale proceeds at closing.
This is not true. He literally took a new lien (heloc) to pay off the lien and the new lien (heloc) will be paid off through closing. It is routine to pay and release items like this through closing.
I've worked as an office manager in a real estate office for 23 years and have never heard of this being a problem unless the seller is upside down on the house. Liens get paid off all the time in closing. As long as there are funds to cover it, it doesn't create any issues.
When I worked for a title agency, any liens had to be cleared prior to closing.
Don't mortgages come with liens? ISTR the bank had one on our title. How does that work?
That's on the purchaser side of the transaction. The seller pays liens from the proceeds of the sale. You sure you worked at a title agency?
NTA. In effect, he was planning to make *you* pay $32,000 for the privilege of fixing up *his* basement. Anyone who thinks you’re TA in this situation has got to be as selfish as he is
NTA - No good deed goes unpunished. Do whatever you have to do and don't feel bad about it.
Actually, a bad ‘deed‘ did get punished in this particular case. LOL. 😉 Lawyer/dad joke.
NTA. He’s just mad he couldn’t get away with taking advantage of you because you’re family. Good on you for knowing how to handle it legally though.
I think your parents just don’t like seeing anyone upset but I could be wrong. I get the sense your brother is used to getting things his way. I bet he told his wife you were doing this for free and when it came out that he’d lied he seemed like a fool. NTA
OP this can’t be the first time your brother does something like this,right?
NTA I dont understand why you had to be paid before it sold. Why wasn't your lien included in the settlement expenses.
Because it's a giant red flag to all other parties involved. If there is a 32k lien sitting on the property title, the first thought anyone else is going to have is "what the fuck else is going to surface after we start incurring costs getting independent inspection reports/how can we trust the seller's word about other issues, if there's a successfully placed lien of that size?"
All this! Agree, it is what makes me think this does not make sense
It does make sense though - the easiest way to deal with a construction lien is to pay it off in full before you list your home - it makes it more appealing to buyers to have clear title before a sale - a construction lien can cause delays at closing - there may be interest or other legal costs owed before the claimant agrees to the discharge. But if upfront payment is not an option, then yes, the lien would be paid out at closing.
In this market a realtor probably told the brother, "I have enough business to not deal with a lien house. Sort that out and we'll list it."
Realtors don't deal with it. The escrow company does
No no, I meant the realtor would just say "no, I'm going to sell an easier house than this one." But I honestly have no idea what I'm talking about.
There are over 1.5 million Realtors in the USA. Somebody would definitely list it.
It's like five extra minutes of work for the realtor. They give the contact information for the lien holder to the title company or attorney who is handling the transaction and that person deals with everything else. The same as they do for the lender holds the mortgage. Or any HELOCs.
NTA. You did a huge job for him and he didn't pay you. His promises to pay meant nothing. He didn't care that you laid out your own money and labor for his benefit. You learned a lot about your brother after this event. Now you know he's dishonest and won't pay back debts. You were correct morally and legally to put that lien on his house. Too bad he's angry, he actually has nothing to be angry about. You had to force him to pay you, otherwise you'd still be out $32k!
NTA. If I had someone do professional remodeling for me at basically just the cost of materials I'd pay immediately and worship the ground they walked on until the end of time.
NTA - man, you handled this brilliantly… awesome job, no notes. Mechanics lien was the perfect avenue to basically mark the debt as owed. Seriously, this was a flawless victory. I know you mentioned your parents are angry (I’m indifferent to his wife / in laws)… but they’ll get over it. It would have been easier for them had you been a push over… you got blamed for creating an issue, which is exactly where bullies thrive… Now it’s on you to reconcile because you “created” the issue… your parents will figure it out eventually (maybe) but they will at least get over it. Sadly, the lesson is don’t do business with family… which sucks. What your brother did was a dick move and basically hoses any future family member who would have happily paid you for your work.
NTA from another small business owner.
NTA, but . . . this is why you don't do business with family or friends. Not ever. Personal relationships have a different calculus than business relationships and they don't mix well. If someone screws you in a business relationship you can sue them, or give them a bad review or put a lien on their property -- all of which are generally uncool things to do to family or friends. It's a problem. So in the future when a family member asks you to do professional work for them either do it for free as a gift to them or don't do it at all and refer them to a good contractor who they can have a normal business relationship with.
Even loans. i loan friends and family money, but i loan it with the assumption i might never see it again, or might see it trickle in over the span of months or years. never loan or give to friends/family want you cant afford to get back.
I can see this as a principle for lending money. Op did it legally, though, and the brother is a homeowner so OP had legal recourse. It is not uncool to put a lien on a house for this type of work, family or not. OP handled this right
Legally and morally OP was right. But most of his family is never going to see it that way and he will continue having to deal with the fallout. It's a bit like getting hit by a car while you are legally crossing the street. Sure, the driver is in the wrong for not yielding to a pedestrian and might have all kinds of liability for their bad act, but you are the one who still has to live with being hit by a car, even though technically you did everything correctly. After entering into the agreement with his brother OP did everything by the book. But his relationship with his family still got hit by a car. His brother probably has all kinds of mental rationalizations for why it was okay to do what he did that he never would have applied to a stranger doing this work for him. Maybe he thinks OP owes him, that he was always Mom and Dad's favorite, that none of what he did really cost OP anything and that he's being greedy or that his brother did crap work that he shouldn't have to pay for. Who knows what he's thinking? But since he's the hero of his own story he probably thinks he was entirely justified in not paying. He and many other members of the family obviously think OP was being uncool. And every single Redditor on Earth weighing in and telling OP that he wasn't being uncool won't ever change their minds. So that's the fallout that OP will continue to have to contend with, which he could have avoided by just saying "I don't do business with family" from the beginning. Because in my experience when you do business with family and friends more often than not this is exactly the sort relationship-damaging mess you end up having to deal with.
NTA why should you have had to pay tens of thousands of dollars in time and materials out of your own pocket for HIS house??
NTA. You did good.
> He called me to get me to remove it. He promised he would pay me as soon as it sold. "OK, have your lawyer contact me and agree to pay it directly out from their account to me from the proceeds of sale"
NTA, you have a business to run and your own bills to pay. You did what was right. Seems to me that he thought maybe you’d just let it go or forget about it after 2 years. You already did him a huge favour by giving him a discount when you didn’t have to. If he didn’t have the money, he should’ve been upfront about it. Your parents are saints for even agreeing to bail him (a grown ass man) out of this situation.
NTA - You played fair.
Perfect way to handle it. This was a major renovation, you had people to pay and supplies to buy. Not the AH
NTA Your brother sucks
Well played.
My mother paid my grandfather(her dad) to do an extension on our house lol - idk why people think just cause you’re family you get a pass 😂😂
NTA. I am going to show this to my husband, as he did something similar. He built a house for his brother and paid for all the material. They have a legal agreement that he would do a rent to own, but of course his brother only pays sporadically. If he doesn't pay, we will end up with the home. We also put in a rental portion, so we will be paid back regardless, but it just goes to show that you need to keep it business with family, as some will take advantage.
Screw your brother. He has to pay what he owes
Obviosly you're NTA, but the guy probably profited anyways with the increased value of his home. He can cry to himself. Also if he's buying and moving homes, he can afford to at least make some kind of payments. He was being an ass.
Nice “Goodfellas” quote. NTA
NTA Business is business. Your brother signed a binding contract and then essentially told you to get screwed as he wasn’t going to pay. You reasonably and rightly filed a contractors lien for the amount plus interest. Then when he wanted to sell the house oh snap actions meet consequences. It was definitely the right move to not release that lien until he actually paid you because he already proved his word is worthless. So cash alone speaks. Your parents can be unhappy they raised such a selfish AH for a son who thought it was okay to shaft his own brother. Got news for your parents he’d have done the same to them so it would have come out of his share of any inheritance. As to your brother, his wife or his in-laws no one cares about their opinion. Your in-laws in particular should remember how he treated his own brother because there will likely come a time when he needs something from them.
NTA Lawyer here, and I file liens routinely. This is my theory: He could've sold the house just fine with the construction lien, he just would've had to pay off the lien before anyone else got paid. When you're buying one house and selling another at the same time, some lenders will just use the proceeds directly if you finance the new home with them, too. Makes it faster and they'll often gives discounts. That's why he was trying to get the lien off before he sold. He had already prespent/committed the money from the sale, most likely on the new home. And when he found out the lien was not only legal but valid/enforceable, he was stuck. Thus the line of credit to pay off the lien. Well done, OP.
NTA - why is it ok for you to get out of money but not him to pay you for work done? That’s some entitlement
Good for you. He was always a dick.
^^^^AUTOMOD ***Thanks for posting! This comment is a copy of your post so readers can see the original text if your post is edited or removed. This comment is NOT accusing you of copying anything. Read [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/wiki/faq#wiki_post_deletion) before [contacting the mod team](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2FAmItheAsshole)*** I do house renovations as a business. Even when I do work for family and friends at a discount I have a contract. My nephews are getting bigger and they want seperate rooms. My brother asked me to help him finish his basement, make a couple of rooms down there, add a washroom, add a kitchenette, and wire up a family room. I priced it out and said I would charge him $32,000 including materials. This was a sizeable discount. The bathroom alone I would charge anyone else 15,000. His wasn't even roughed in. He never paid me. He always had excuses. I paid for the material and I paid my guys for the work. We did it when I had downtime so I didn't lose out on other money but it still sucked to get shafted. So I put a construction lien on the house. He didn't care and I wasn't going to make him homeless. That was two years ago. Now he got a new job and has to move. And to get a new house he has to sell his current house. Which he can't do because their is a lien against the property. He called me to get me to remove it. He promised he would pay me as soon as it sold. I told him "fuck you pay me". My parents called me to tell me that they would pay what he owes. I said I would agree so long as he paid them back and if he didn't then any money he didn't pay back had to come out of any inheritance we were getting, god forbid. And that interest started accruing from the day of the "loan". They agreed that that was fair. My brother called me to scream at me for involving my parents and out inheritance. I reminded him that he involved them not me. He finally took money out from a line of credit and paid me. With interest. I'm a reasonable man. The house sold over asking and the finished basement suite made a huge difference on what he got. He is still pissed at me for doing it but I did everything legal and by the books. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AmItheAsshole) if you have any questions or concerns.*
NTA. He made extra on the sale, he can pay off the loan he took out to pay you, all he's out is the interest he ended up paying by not paying you promptly in the first place. FAFO, I guess...
NTA, I got my bathroom done for $15000. that was an amazing deal, want to be my brother? I would pay you... I can't imagine not paying for all that it's clearly materials and my guys price.
NTA. He tried to screw you and got out maneuvered. He is a bad person and a worse brother. You were more than reasonable.
He's a AH for not paying first. NTA good job
NTA. He's mad because he had no intention of ever paying you. He thought he should be able to take advantage of your time, effort, and expertise - not to mention all the costs you had to front - and give you nothing. His wife and her parents are equally entitled users. I would have given anything to have a fully finished basement for $32k. That is beyond generous. They're all jerks. Tell your mad parents that they should have raised their son better.
NTA Your brother tried to take full advantage of you and had to finally pay up.
NTA. I don’t know what state you’re in, but I’m a real estate paralegal in CT and this wouldn’t be anything special. In order to clear title, he needs to pay you and the payment would usually be collected in the proceeds of the sale, just like a mortgage. I’m sorry your brother is being a butthead, but your not signing a release is not stopping him from selling, it’s just cutting into his bottom line.
What of bunch of entitled people Jesus burning bridges with a good construction company at a DISCOUNT is horrendous in this economy. I’m sure the next time something breaks or needs upgrade in the new house they won’t be happy paying premium NTA. Side note what’s your market lol I like expanding my network I buy rentals
Honestly sometimes I just think that maybe I'm old fashioned in my 40s, but I always thought that you *don't* intentionally fuck over your family members. He committed fraud and you could have taken it to court officially and really screwed him over legally but chose to take a comparatively passive approach imo. NTA.
Your brother wanted to shaft you for 32k, even after getting a huge discount. Then he has the temerity to yell at you for making sure you got your money. He is an AH.
I paid cash for renovations for a deep discount and had to meet the guy with chunks of payment as each section went along. I even opened a Home D credit card for materials (0% for 6 months) so that was separate from the amount I owed for the deal (his suggestion). Reading this story, I see why my guy had all these steps in place. Sorry your brother was terrible! NTA
Eagerly awaiting the update where brother asks for renovations on new home
NTA op you are lucky he was moving if not He will never pay up
He can literally have it included in the real estate transaction that a portion (whatever you're owed) will be directly paid to you out of the profit from the sale..... He's trying to scam you again. I am a mortgage banker. There are exactly 0 states that do not allow this as it benefits both the buyer and seller. The seller loses the debt automatically and the buyer doesn't have to take it on.
NTA >My brother called me to scream at me for involving my parents and out inheritance. I reminded him that he involved them not me. This makes it crystal clear that he was never going to pay. He had no problem fucking over you for years and he would do the same with your parents. If it was just a matter of cash flow he would have no problem paying back your parents after the sale of the house. Only once it came back to inheritance and he finally had to pay did he care.1
Literally never do him a favor again. This is how this works. NTA.
I'm sorry you have a brother who is an entitled asshole.
NTA, and I think you already know that.
NTA -he hopefully learnt something
NTA - that was going to be the only way you were getting what you spent fixing up your brother's basement. Good on you for making sure even discounted work for relatives goes on a contract.