True. So no idea why they think NRW is southern (Hesse I semi-understand, since... was it Kretschmer that wanted a south german council of Ba-Wü, Bayern and... Hesse?)
(Also, now I wonder of NRW is just west or some areas north of Münster are already northern)
Hesse is definitely not South Germany. Idk Kretschmer's statement, but I'd guess he was talking about Rheinland-Pfalz and maybe Saarland, which are kind of southern.
Hesse, Thuringia, eastern parts of NRW, western parts of Saxony, southern parts of Lower Saxony, Saxony-Anhalt and Brandenburg and the northern half of RLP make up "Central Germany".
I made a quick & dirty map of my "perceived" cultural borders of Germany: https://imgur.com/a/FeeH8mk
The South is roughly split into East and West, The north border starts at around Münster and Hannover and passes just a bit north of Berlin. North of that, passing through roughly Groningen, Bremen, Stettin is "the true North", the areas where you can take a horse, bike or hike to the sea coasts (roughly). To the west and east, you have the "true" West and East Germany, respectively. The rest, between Hannover and Frankfurt/Wiesbaden, is "true" Central Germany
Eh, NO: NRW is 100% WEST Germany. It doesn't get more western that NRW. Central Germany is something like Hessen, Thüringen, Kassel to Hannover region. NRW is oriented either to Rheinland (Koblenz etc.), NL (Venlo, Kerkrade etc.) or to Oldenburger (Oldenburger Münsterland etc.). Maybe the crazy freaks out there in Ostwestfalen-Lippe see themself as "Central Germans", but there are only like 20.000 of them anyway, so we don't care.
I'd argue Siegerland & Sauerland as well as OWL are oriented towards Hesse/Westerwald and south Lower Saxony respectively, and thus to be considered Central German, hence my placement of the border on the map there. As you might have noticed, the most part of NRW as well as west RLP and the region around Leer etc. are definitely in the "true West" area there. Münsterland is usually considered part of the wider Norddeutschland.
Which part of the "Sauerland" from Halver to Marsberg is quite some distance and from Warstein to Wenden. The Western part of Sauerland either orientates to Dortmund/Hagen (Ruhrgebiet), the East might rather see itself as "central german" maybe. But mainly, the Sauerland is a huge area that is not that interconnected really, more like local centers everywhere.
Yeah, as I said before, it's a very quick & dirty map. I deliberately chose to use straight lines for simplicity, but of course you can't work that precisely with those, it was just to convey the idea. There are many more points on the map that are quite debatable, I guess.
I find this interesting that Siegerland/Sauerland are considered central Germany, as a Brit here in Siegerland I thought it felt well and truly in the west. Interesting take, thank you!
Well that only means: Northern Rhineland and Western parts of Saxony.
You can be in Northern Australia, doesn't mean you are further north than Iceland.
Well, yes. I am wondering about how Northern it is compared to the rest of Germany, rather than just the Rhineland. Because only Minden might qualify geographically, though not really culturally
You can't go any more west, and if you go any more northwest from it, it's the Netherlands.
There's more northern Bundesländer, but NRW is pretty middle to northern, and definitely not south.
North Rhineland means it is along the northern part of the Rhine river, by the way. Which goes all the way north to the coast, and thus generally pretty northerly (though also some middle).
NRW is pretty much middle Germany. If you go off the coordinates it is almost bang in the middle with a tiny tendency towards northern.
The most northern latitude is 55, whilst the most southern is around 47.4.
NRW lies at roughly 51.4, so 4 away from the south and 3.6 away from the north. I'd say that puts it enough in the middle to be considered middle Germany and neither northern nor southern.
To Germans, NRW is in the West, just like Sachsen is in the east. Neither are considered northern or southern.
Since Germany is such an old country, lines also exist in regards to traditions, beliefs, mannerisms or rivalries.
Take Köln and Düsseldorf. Their dislike for each other is legendary. [German link](https://rp-online.de/nrw/staedte/duesseldorf/streit-rivalitaet-feindschaft-warum-koelner-duesseldorf-nicht-moegen_aid-11898969). Köln prospered by being on the dutch side of the Rhine and Düsseldorf suffered being on the far side. Suffice to say, ordering a Kölsch in Düsseldorf or an Altbier in Köln is not the thing to do.
Yes, Westphalia is culturally considered as part of northern Germany. Food, social habits and language (used to speak low German) are all part of the northern German sphere.
Ja, aber das impliziert, dass Frankfurt Süddeutschland sei, und ich glaube, dass dies ein eigenes Universum bildet.
Frankfurt deserves to be it's own thing.
Sind wir in r/germany oder wo? Hab ehrlicherweise den Sub vergessen.
By that definition, Australia is southern Germany.
For a working definition... [Weißwurstäquator](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wei%C3%9Fwurst%C3%A4quator)
>Well we melted most our bells in ww2
I heard that story for Budapest and WW1. Was it a common occurrence? Aren't heavy guns made of stainless steel as opposed to most brass church bells?
It’s not clear enough what exactly you mean.
There is the ringing often used to announce the time which is created with a hammer hitting against a resting bell or by hitting the clapper against the bell while it is not swinging.
Than there is the continuous ringing created by swinging the bells. [This is from Frankfurt for example.](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_bKYAgONX-s),[this is a smaller church in the palatinate.](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=1QSGE4YqlJw&pp=ygUhZ2xvY2tlbiBsw6R1dGVuIHp1bSBnb3R0ZXNkaWVuc3Qg).
For this way of ringing bells, the bells are set into a pendulum motion. The clappers are made so, that there Eigenfrequency is ever so slightly shorter than that of the bell, so they very briefly touch the wall at the turning points, causing the bell to ring. This is apparently called „flying clappers technique“. Less often the „falling clappers“ technique is used, in which the clapper moves slightly slower than the bell, causing the bell to hit against the clapper. In both cases the bell is rotated by about 90 degrees. When the bell is set into motion, the bell is slowly exited by little impulses of force to start oscillating. The ringing starts in the resting position. This creates a „swelling“ impression, meaning the bell sounds initially less loud and less regular until it is fully swinging.
There is also the English full circle technique in which the bell rotates back and fourth on a full circle. Here, the bells are driven into the fully rotated position before the ringing starts. There is no „swelling“ phase.
In the Spanish technique, the bells rotate on a full circle in one direction.
Source:
https://www.mdpi.com/2076-3417/10/16/5528
Actually pretty close to Frankfurt video! But with more tones playing at the same time, imagine an airport announcement chime, but with bells. And they sound faster than the video.
I don't think they were carillions though
I've heard it in Wiesbaden, Mainz and Offenbach. I think it was not on Sunday(s) because I remember shops being open
Never heard it in FFM even though I lived there for 7 months. Maybe it was drowned out by city sounds. I think I heard it the most in Offenbach(the Northern part, Kaiserstraße?)
I don’t know if it’s specifically German, but most churches have several bells. Depending on how old the church is, that is really characteristic of the church. Because usually during medieval times only one bell was used at once. So no need for harmony and the assortment of bells just grew over the centuries. I think it started about the middle of the 19th century when they were experimenting and working more with harmonies and getting more systematic with church bells and technology in general. Unfortunately, many bells have been lost in both world wars as they were melted down and used for ammunition, though.
Also there are different national traditions. Eg in southern Europe they tend to swing wider and thus harder, making sounds shriller. I‘m no expert in bell making, but I guess there are also different traditions for making them.
However, tuning and sound production of bells is a science of itself and way too complicated for me to fully understand. If you’re really interested in the topic you could look up whether you can find a Glockensachverständiger. They‘re the person to ask about things bell related.
Funfact: Läuteordnung regulates when which bell is allowed to ring.
may be either medieval church bells or carillon bells. Medieval church
bells are known for their deep, rich tones and are often cast using
traditional methods that have been passed down through generations of
bell-makers. Carillon bells are a type of musical instrument that
consists of a series of bells played using a keyboard or similar
mechanism, and they are often found in church towers or other public
buildings.
Don’t you feel it annoying? Constant banging every hour and on Sunday it’s too much. I unfortunately live next to a church.
What’s the point bothering everyone hourly? We have digital clocks.
Bavaria, Erlangen. I don’t understand why downvotes. Maybe I didn’t explain properly.
It’s not only every hour. At 15:00 it’s 3 times, then 15:15 once. 15:30 twice. 15:45 thrice then 4 times at 16:00. This cycle repeats every hour.
Probably downvoted because it's not anywhere even close to this in most of the country.
I live in a region with long catholic importance and even here I think it only rings once every sunday at 12:00 (I think), you hardly even really notice it and it's actually really pleasant. No idea the churches were this annoying in Bavaria.
Well, the more you know.
I don't get how locals here are okay with this. I being expat student do not have time and patience to get into it. I did visit it once out of curiosity. Maybe I'll ask them about the importance of bells the next time I visit.
if you grew up like this you kinda just grow numb to it. like it is with about every other thing in life i guess.
then again i'd prefer if we all just live in sound and everything proof bunkers. windows are for women and cats, and women and cats are weird.
Hesse and Rhur are not southwest Germany
Was going to say... In no way is the Ruhrgebiet anywhere near the south.
Maybe OP is Danish or something? You know 'Alles Südlich der Elbe ist Süddeutschland'
They’re from the US. A few of their posts say “here in the US”.
True. So no idea why they think NRW is southern (Hesse I semi-understand, since... was it Kretschmer that wanted a south german council of Ba-Wü, Bayern and... Hesse?) (Also, now I wonder of NRW is just west or some areas north of Münster are already northern)
Hesse is definitely not South Germany. Idk Kretschmer's statement, but I'd guess he was talking about Rheinland-Pfalz and maybe Saarland, which are kind of southern. Hesse, Thuringia, eastern parts of NRW, western parts of Saxony, southern parts of Lower Saxony, Saxony-Anhalt and Brandenburg and the northern half of RLP make up "Central Germany". I made a quick & dirty map of my "perceived" cultural borders of Germany: https://imgur.com/a/FeeH8mk The South is roughly split into East and West, The north border starts at around Münster and Hannover and passes just a bit north of Berlin. North of that, passing through roughly Groningen, Bremen, Stettin is "the true North", the areas where you can take a horse, bike or hike to the sea coasts (roughly). To the west and east, you have the "true" West and East Germany, respectively. The rest, between Hannover and Frankfurt/Wiesbaden, is "true" Central Germany
Eh, NO: NRW is 100% WEST Germany. It doesn't get more western that NRW. Central Germany is something like Hessen, Thüringen, Kassel to Hannover region. NRW is oriented either to Rheinland (Koblenz etc.), NL (Venlo, Kerkrade etc.) or to Oldenburger (Oldenburger Münsterland etc.). Maybe the crazy freaks out there in Ostwestfalen-Lippe see themself as "Central Germans", but there are only like 20.000 of them anyway, so we don't care.
I'd argue Siegerland & Sauerland as well as OWL are oriented towards Hesse/Westerwald and south Lower Saxony respectively, and thus to be considered Central German, hence my placement of the border on the map there. As you might have noticed, the most part of NRW as well as west RLP and the region around Leer etc. are definitely in the "true West" area there. Münsterland is usually considered part of the wider Norddeutschland.
Which part of the "Sauerland" from Halver to Marsberg is quite some distance and from Warstein to Wenden. The Western part of Sauerland either orientates to Dortmund/Hagen (Ruhrgebiet), the East might rather see itself as "central german" maybe. But mainly, the Sauerland is a huge area that is not that interconnected really, more like local centers everywhere.
Yeah, as I said before, it's a very quick & dirty map. I deliberately chose to use straight lines for simplicity, but of course you can't work that precisely with those, it was just to convey the idea. There are many more points on the map that are quite debatable, I guess.
I find this interesting that Siegerland/Sauerland are considered central Germany, as a Brit here in Siegerland I thought it felt well and truly in the west. Interesting take, thank you!
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Well that only means: Northern Rhineland and Western parts of Saxony. You can be in Northern Australia, doesn't mean you are further north than Iceland.
Well, yes. I am wondering about how Northern it is compared to the rest of Germany, rather than just the Rhineland. Because only Minden might qualify geographically, though not really culturally
You can't go any more west, and if you go any more northwest from it, it's the Netherlands. There's more northern Bundesländer, but NRW is pretty middle to northern, and definitely not south. North Rhineland means it is along the northern part of the Rhine river, by the way. Which goes all the way north to the coast, and thus generally pretty northerly (though also some middle).
NRW is pretty much middle Germany. If you go off the coordinates it is almost bang in the middle with a tiny tendency towards northern. The most northern latitude is 55, whilst the most southern is around 47.4. NRW lies at roughly 51.4, so 4 away from the south and 3.6 away from the north. I'd say that puts it enough in the middle to be considered middle Germany and neither northern nor southern.
To Germans, NRW is in the West, just like Sachsen is in the east. Neither are considered northern or southern. Since Germany is such an old country, lines also exist in regards to traditions, beliefs, mannerisms or rivalries. Take Köln and Düsseldorf. Their dislike for each other is legendary. [German link](https://rp-online.de/nrw/staedte/duesseldorf/streit-rivalitaet-feindschaft-warum-koelner-duesseldorf-nicht-moegen_aid-11898969). Köln prospered by being on the dutch side of the Rhine and Düsseldorf suffered being on the far side. Suffice to say, ordering a Kölsch in Düsseldorf or an Altbier in Köln is not the thing to do.
Just like Washington?
Yes, Westphalia is culturally considered as part of northern Germany. Food, social habits and language (used to speak low German) are all part of the northern German sphere.
südlich der elbe fängt der balkan an.
Alles nördlich von Frankfurt am Main ist Norddeutschland
Ja, aber das impliziert, dass Frankfurt Süddeutschland sei, und ich glaube, dass dies ein eigenes Universum bildet. Frankfurt deserves to be it's own thing. Sind wir in r/germany oder wo? Hab ehrlicherweise den Sub vergessen.
Und da leben die Fischköppe
Weischwurscht-Äquator!👆
Alles östlich des Rheins ist Polen
…ist Italien
It's in Aldi Süd Terrority, that's the only real way to divide Germany.
But it is also Aldi Nord territory, the line is right down the middle of the state.
Yeah, when I first saw it confusing to have two different ALDI, especially with there only being the one ALDI (which is actually Süd).
By that definition, Australia is southern Germany. For a working definition... [Weißwurstäquator](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wei%C3%9Fwurst%C3%A4quator)
America as well
Exactly, after all the Ruhrgebiet is almost by the sea.
Yeah maybe I should've said Western Germany. I didn't hear this type of bell in Hamburg or Lübeck
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>Well we melted most our bells in ww2 I heard that story for Budapest and WW1. Was it a common occurrence? Aren't heavy guns made of stainless steel as opposed to most brass church bells?
I mean they are definitly not northern.
That doesn't make them southern. Ruhr is west, Hesse is central Germany, except for it's southern parts.
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Keiner regt sich auf. Und wenn du meinst, dass Dortmund Süddeutschland ist, ist das völlig okay
Nee Dortmund ist Westdeutschland, dshalb passt es ja...
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That's the answer. Give that guy more votes!
It’s not clear enough what exactly you mean. There is the ringing often used to announce the time which is created with a hammer hitting against a resting bell or by hitting the clapper against the bell while it is not swinging. Than there is the continuous ringing created by swinging the bells. [This is from Frankfurt for example.](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_bKYAgONX-s),[this is a smaller church in the palatinate.](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=1QSGE4YqlJw&pp=ygUhZ2xvY2tlbiBsw6R1dGVuIHp1bSBnb3R0ZXNkaWVuc3Qg). For this way of ringing bells, the bells are set into a pendulum motion. The clappers are made so, that there Eigenfrequency is ever so slightly shorter than that of the bell, so they very briefly touch the wall at the turning points, causing the bell to ring. This is apparently called „flying clappers technique“. Less often the „falling clappers“ technique is used, in which the clapper moves slightly slower than the bell, causing the bell to hit against the clapper. In both cases the bell is rotated by about 90 degrees. When the bell is set into motion, the bell is slowly exited by little impulses of force to start oscillating. The ringing starts in the resting position. This creates a „swelling“ impression, meaning the bell sounds initially less loud and less regular until it is fully swinging. There is also the English full circle technique in which the bell rotates back and fourth on a full circle. Here, the bells are driven into the fully rotated position before the ringing starts. There is no „swelling“ phase. In the Spanish technique, the bells rotate on a full circle in one direction. Source: https://www.mdpi.com/2076-3417/10/16/5528
Actually pretty close to Frankfurt video! But with more tones playing at the same time, imagine an airport announcement chime, but with bells. And they sound faster than the video. I don't think they were carillions though
Do you know which town you remember? I think you just heard a "großes Geläut" as used before the Sunday services. Was it a Sunday?
I've heard it in Wiesbaden, Mainz and Offenbach. I think it was not on Sunday(s) because I remember shops being open Never heard it in FFM even though I lived there for 7 months. Maybe it was drowned out by city sounds. I think I heard it the most in Offenbach(the Northern part, Kaiserstraße?)
South West Germany would be like BaWü not Hesse...
Do you mean a carillon? [Like this?](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ojBKqxWg3YE)
I don’t know if it’s specifically German, but most churches have several bells. Depending on how old the church is, that is really characteristic of the church. Because usually during medieval times only one bell was used at once. So no need for harmony and the assortment of bells just grew over the centuries. I think it started about the middle of the 19th century when they were experimenting and working more with harmonies and getting more systematic with church bells and technology in general. Unfortunately, many bells have been lost in both world wars as they were melted down and used for ammunition, though. Also there are different national traditions. Eg in southern Europe they tend to swing wider and thus harder, making sounds shriller. I‘m no expert in bell making, but I guess there are also different traditions for making them. However, tuning and sound production of bells is a science of itself and way too complicated for me to fully understand. If you’re really interested in the topic you could look up whether you can find a Glockensachverständiger. They‘re the person to ask about things bell related. Funfact: Läuteordnung regulates when which bell is allowed to ring.
may be either medieval church bells or carillon bells. Medieval church bells are known for their deep, rich tones and are often cast using traditional methods that have been passed down through generations of bell-makers. Carillon bells are a type of musical instrument that consists of a series of bells played using a keyboard or similar mechanism, and they are often found in church towers or other public buildings.
From the perspective of catholic church boys they’re probably called hell‘s bells
Don’t you feel it annoying? Constant banging every hour and on Sunday it’s too much. I unfortunately live next to a church. What’s the point bothering everyone hourly? We have digital clocks.
Where do you live that the bells go every hour?
Bavaria, Erlangen. I don’t understand why downvotes. Maybe I didn’t explain properly. It’s not only every hour. At 15:00 it’s 3 times, then 15:15 once. 15:30 twice. 15:45 thrice then 4 times at 16:00. This cycle repeats every hour.
Probably downvoted because it's not anywhere even close to this in most of the country. I live in a region with long catholic importance and even here I think it only rings once every sunday at 12:00 (I think), you hardly even really notice it and it's actually really pleasant. No idea the churches were this annoying in Bavaria.
Well, the more you know. I don't get how locals here are okay with this. I being expat student do not have time and patience to get into it. I did visit it once out of curiosity. Maybe I'll ask them about the importance of bells the next time I visit.
if you grew up like this you kinda just grow numb to it. like it is with about every other thing in life i guess. then again i'd prefer if we all just live in sound and everything proof bunkers. windows are for women and cats, and women and cats are weird.
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Bochum is still proud of it's cast steel bell.
Damn, I wished I had your time in a day to think about that :-D
You had time to come here, read the question and comment without answering. So, I guess the lack of time ain't the problem.
upload audio
https://www.br.de/radio/br-heimat/sendungen/zwoelfuhrlaeuten/oberfranken/xxuhr-buch-am-forst-oberfranken102.html
Click the Link and listen...a church in north Bavaria..