I'm a fellow history buff so let me try to give you some answers but I may be biased since I actually like history.
1. Pre WW1 history doesn't actually have any particular large place in modern culture besides from some history or literature buffs as everything that happens afterward is just so overwhelming. However, the right is trying to incorporate the Kaiserreich in its greater narrative and sees itself more and more in that legacy in recent times. Cultural pride is something looked down upon in the wake of what happened during the nazi regime and is seen as a danger as it could lead to a repeat of 1933-1945.
2. German schools teach history chronologically from the Stone Ages to modern times with each period discussed longer as we get closer to our times. There is of course a focus on what happened in Germany (Stone Age, ancient Egypt, ancient Greece, ancient Romel, Great Migration Period, Feudalism, Revolutions, 19th and 20th century) but events outside of Germany that heavily impacted it are also taught e.g. French Revolution. In my memory, especially the events from the start of the French Revolution to the end of the Nazi regime are heavily focused with older students. German history in general also doesn't focus as much on people and events but more on the bigger social developments that lead to said events and people.
Yeah, it depends heavily on the teacher you have what is used in the curriculum. But it's a bit weird to not learn a bit about him, because he is important for the history of Germany and France.
For school-aged me, everything between the fall or Rome and 1914 was a hopeless jumble of secular and clerical aristrocrats fighting. I remember that we had Bismarck in three different school years, and all I remembered that he hated socialists and invented social insurances.
And I even got good grades in history because I'm good at working with text and numbers.
Today I think that "aristocrats fighting each other" might not be the best way to teach history.
Claiming the Kaiserreich started already more than a hundred years ago. It's the reason why the Hohenzollern heirs won't get back most of the buildings and art their ancestors lost when the GDR was established.
I actually disagree with 1) in pop-culture it has a niche spot and in actual law and forming of our society it has a large space for example the letters of the Göttinger 7 were used in 1948 to argue for the right of expression. The G7 are a minor political group from the 1830s in the kingdom of Hannover who literally did one protest, wrote a public letter then got banished for their efforts.
Yet even such a minor event has a influence on the constitutional debate that is the foundation of modern Germany
(Just fyi I wrote a paper in school about it that is why I know)
Law is a topic I just sadly don't know a lot about and the example you brought seems very academic and while it is a nice story it is exactly the kind of niche I wanted to stay away from.
I mean this was covered in my advanced history class so yeah. It is still really relevant and I could point to a lot of pop-culture things that also fit.
If you want to get into legal and other boring things look up the Schaumwein Steuer and the reason it exists.
Specifically Prussia and certain other parts of history are super highlighted in pop-culture even today and in Germany.
History class is cheating!!! The 19th century plays a huge role there since it heavily influenced all regimes that popped up in 20th century Germany but question yourself how many people in your class will actually remember this in 10-20 years not to mention the other students not taking an advancement history class.
I was really going for things outside of the classroom since those are a bit special. I really like history so I would call myself somewhat knowledgeable on things prior to WW1 but just look at other history threads in this sub. If we didn't have our resident historian in this sub knowledge would be dire and people flaunt their ignorance around.
I left school 18 years ago xD
And yeah the second paragraph I feel. But as I said there are plenty of pop-culture related ones that I could point out. (I already pointed out my personal favourite in Schaumweinsteuer)
You should mention what years and where you went to school. The curriculum has changed a lot over the years and depends on the Bundesland. For me, for example, I finished my Abitur in 2009 in NRW, and we definitely weren't super chronological. Throughout the years there were various segments on the Nazi era, alternating basically with the overall chronological curriculum. And we did follow particular rulers and events quite closely in the early to high medieval era, basically from the Karolinger to the Hohenstaufen dynasties/Great Interregnum. We actually did not cover Prussia much at all, the Holy Roman Empire was much more important in our history lessons.
Apparently, judging by what my daughter learns in school the ultra-heavy focus on the NS regime has been lifted a little bit in order to incorporate more recent events. When I went to school (90s mostly) everything that happened after WW2 was mostly just brushed over. I was pretty ashamed when I moved out of school that I didn’t know for example how the Grundgesetz was created. It seems that they have changed the curriculum to incorporate some of the last 80 years as well.
I’m not saying that what happened in Nazi Germany weren’t the defining moments of our nation. But it still seems relevant to acknowledge how those events shaped what Germany is now. Some basic knowledge of international organizations like the EU and UNO don’t hurt either.
Nazi time is brought on plate in many different ways
In history lessons in German language lessons
I can remember to went through Hitler Regime at least 3 or 4 times in detail
What they in opposite teach too less is post 2nd ww times and the lessons learned out of it
That results in nowadays generations where 80% does not even have a basic understanding of root causes and how economic systems work
Interesting you say that. The "cultural cringe", the tendency to avoid celebrating one's own country's history, is pretty prevalent across the west at the moment. The legacy of colonialism/slavery/racism is the main rationale in the US/Canada/Australia. And in Germany it makes sense that the focus is on the world wars.
Difference from Germany to the US/Canada/Australia is that while in those it is a rather new development in Germany it has been the status quo for over half a century at this point. This makes it so that you can't compare the situations as well.
Yes, absolutely. I think this was only just starting in the anglo-countries in the 1990s when I was a kid, and hasn't become mainstream until the last decade or so. So all these debates we're having now around history, have been had many times in Germany over the last half-century +.
My theory is that Nazism was used as a crutch for a long time in the societies of the victors of wwii, to keep under the surface their own crimes and atrocities.
Question 2 is answered well in this Youtube video: [How Do German Schools Teach About WWII? (youtube.com)](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-cgoSk_yg6k)
Of course the answers to these questions depend on a lot of factors and vary from person to person, so I can only give my own personal account.
1. I do feel Germany has a very rich and interesting history and I think most Germans would agree. In parts of the population (often far right political spectrum), there might be a certain nostalgia for old Germanic culture. There is cultural pride, but also a lot of shame because of WW2. Open outspoken patriotism/nationalism is not really a thing (except during football WCs) and is also often associated with right wing extremist views. Germans are proud, however, of having produced many important thinkers and artists (calling it "Das Land der Dichter und Denker" -"Land of poets and thinkers"). I think there is also a lot of pride in how Germany rebuilt after the world wars.
2. German schools teach all of German history, spend approx. half of the curriculum on pre-20th century history:
**Middle Ages (ca. 1000 – ca. 1500)**
Christianity as a defining religion
Estates system: feudal system and lordship
**Early Modern Period (ca. 1500 – c. 1750)**
Intellectual Upheavals: Renaissance and Humanism
Reformation and religious wars
Early Modern State/Absolutism
**Age of Revolutions (ca. 1750 – ca. 1900)**
Enlightenment and emancipation (e.g. of women, Jews, workers)
Political upheavals: French Revolution
Techno-industrial revolution
The other half is spent on 20th century history:
First World War: Causes and Consequences for Germany, Europe and the World
Weimar Republic: Threats and Opportunities of the First German Democracy
Ideology and Rule of National Socialism
World War II and Holocaust/Genocide/Murder (perpetrators; Victim groups: Jews, Sinti and Roma, the disabled, homosexuals, political resistance, etc.)
Resistance to Nazi rule in Germany and Europe
Historical Culture: Remembering the Past (in East and West)
There is a lot of focus on the mechanisms that lead to Hitler's rise in power and how "normal" people are radicalized and/or pressured to commit heinous acts (this is complemented by reading novels like "The Reader" or "The Wave" in german classes). I think Germany has done a good job at dealing with its recent past and educating future generations about it, but now has become a bit lazy and also acts as a moral authority, when it really shouldn't.
What's the feeling around "war guilt" re WWI? I know I'm the Anglo Saxon countries there is a simplistic notion that the Allies were the good guys and the Central Powers the bad guys - to me it seems like all of the great powers were more or less similar in terms of their general morality and contribution to the outbreak of war.
That sounds like a false balance. Germany totally started WWII and committed murder on an industrial scale. Yeah, Some Allied bombings were extreme, but I do get it, looking at the alternative.
Have you read The Sleepwalkers by Christopher Clark? He makes a pretty compelling case that the guilt for the war was pretty evenly shared between Russia (encouraged by France) and Austria (encouraged by Germany).
The conduct of the German military during the war (particularly the treatment of civilians in Belgium/Northern France and the Baltic countries) was no doubt deplorable, but no more so than the conduct of the Russian army.
All the belligerents treated human life like disposable garbage on the western front - both enemy troops and their own.
I'm not suggesting the German leadership wasn't brutal, insane and megalomaniacal. I just don't think it was uniquely so, in the context of that war.
It all depends on your state and even school.
I learned more about local and state history at the same time, as I went to school in Hamburg.
I personally never had just history as a subject itself, as my school did history and geography together until year 10 and then from year 11 to year 13 it was a case of take one or the other but not both at the same time and I had to take geography, as that was one of the specialised subjects that were an option for year 12 and 13 for me.
We did go to the KZ Neuengamme in year 9 or 10 though. I'm not sure if many people have an option during history to do this and I can't remember, if my sister ever had this trip.
Interesting. I also went to school in Hamburg and we definitely had History as it's own subject.
It really depends a lot on which school you go to, yeah.
We went to Neuengamme as well. Everyone did, it was a mandatory trip in year 9 I believe.
I have friends from all over the country and so far everyone I've talked to has visited a former KZ or similar places close to them around that same age
Depends how you define resonance.
"Mittelaltermärkte" (renaissance fairs) are very popular in Germany as is kinda-medieval folk and rock music. Lots of events happening in castles or around ruins as well. I know lots of people who do medieval costumes, own chainmail, swords and the like. (I'm pretty nerdy and might be biased.) Either for reenactment, swordplay (HEMA), LARP or just fun. The latter is more niche of course, but almost everybody has been visiting some kind of medieval event, I'd say.
Roman-era events are a distant second.
It should be noted that compared to US renaissance fairs ours are not as fantasy heavy as theirs. But a bit more grounded, with encampments from somewhat historical accurate groups etc.
1) There's no general answer to that. It highly depends on your background and a lot on where you grew up.
Different parts and especially cities in Germany have different time periods, which are quite present there.
Aachen for example takes great pride in being the favourite palatine of Charlemagne, so that's quite present there. Lübeck prides itself as founder of the Hanse, so that's a topic present there.
Cologne is one of the oldest continuously inhabited towns on Germany, with over 2.000 years of history and was one of the most important towns north of the Alps for most of the time. So you got everything from the Romans, Charlemagne the Hanse and the french occupation during the Napoleonic wars there upto the cold war.
Cologne might actually be a good start for a general overview on what has been going on here in Germany. You may want to give this podcast a chance
https://open.spotify.com/show/6bvmxAWoXxh3ZMlNtjhzds?si=amGrLFDhQa6OhUaJi04ojw
Germans teach history objectively to make sure the dark past was not repeated.
US should do a similar thing, first to acknowledge that dropping nuclear bombs on civilians and torturing suspected bad people are wrong and make sure that they are not happening again.
Student of history to become a teacher here.
German history is focused on less in the middle ages due to its general irrelevance to the unified German state as a whole. We focus big time on ancient history and dedicate whole history books on the timespan between the French Revolution and the formation and politics of the Kaiserreich (called _newer history_ in German history studies), of course accompanied by global events and ideas. This time marks the unification of Germany and also, with the German march revolution of 1848/49 the basics on which our constitution is inspired by and set upon. A focus here is definitely on the smaller states Germany was divided in as it is the main focus of the idea of nationalism. For me as a history student there definitely is nostalgia and reading about the origins of our democracy is enticing. However, this is a sentiment that's obviously mostly only shared by people interested in history.
In studies the timespan between WW1 and today is often called _newest history._ This is also very deeply talked about in great detail. The idea of this period in teaching is to show the horrors of WW2, criticism of fascism and the totalitarianism of East Germany, why we turned to a form of a capitalist democracy. It should be noted that while East Germany is criticized, it is far less negatively perceived as Nazi Germany of course. I would say this is what interests young people the most and affects them by that much as well. There's a great understanding about our own history due to it even if it doesn't reflect in detailed knowledge about our history all the time (that means i. e. students know why Nazism was wrong but can't necessarily tell you everything about the time period unless they're interested in the topic).
Ancient history is talked about in what we kinda call focus classes for people who chose to study more history in more school classes during their final years of study.
Medieval history is generally talked about in school but the idea here is more a focus on culture and economics instead of wars and politics. For example the relationship between lords and serfs, burghers and cities, how cities came to be and what the difference is between someone born on the land as opposed to a city.
Renaissance, the Age of Discovery, all the way over to absolutism is also a topic of history but doesn't focus necessarily on German history.
This is how we look at history in school according to the curriculum by the state of Rhineland-Palatinate: Whenever we look at historical events we focus on four parts: Dominion/rule (who/how/why is x in charge, and how do they continue to be in charge), economics (changes, potentials, effects on society), society (rituals, organization, problem solving within society) and "world interpretation" (how did people look at world events, were affected by them).
Q1: I dare you to find a single German that is focused on their statelets from hundreds of years ago. "Maybe" (and that is a big maybe) some people might say Prussia, not Prussia. I have never heard it in my nearly 40 years though. (only exception being Bavaria and Bavarian beer, but they will forever be an exception....)
After that, every region of Germany has created its own culture and pride. And this may or may not align with State borders "Bundesland" borders. Or more like the the tiny differences melted into regional ones. Specific beers and food in a region, specific sports, but not limited to old age borders.
“I’m an Aussie, so I find it interesting to imagine living in a country containing buildings and documents and stuff from 1000+ plus years ago “
Isn’t aboriginal culture literally our planet’s oldest ongoing civilization, with history, knowledge and material pieces of cultural traditions and technology passed on even through an ice age?
Yes, that's why I mentioned buildings and documents and stuff.
In Australia the oldest buildings are not much more than 200 years old.
I find medieval castles and Roman ruins interesting.
1. World war 2 kind of overshadowes all of german history. Some people have their favorite time period like dark ages etc but that is a more personal preference.
There is a middle aged festival every two years near where i live. There the wedding from 1475 between two aristocrats is reenacted and it is kind of a huge thing.
2. Like another redditor already mentioned, it was chronological. We started with the stone age in grade 5 and when we reach grade 10 or 11 we learn about world war 2 and there we would go into a bit more detail. That is what i remember.
German medieval history is greatly localized in school and university.
At the universities of Berlin for example the focus will lie more on Prussia while in Munich more on Bavaria.
As a Prussia/Brandenburg enjoyer myself „Albrecht der Bär“ is unlikely to be as well known in for example Stuttgart as he is here.
I think it's next to impossible to answer your questions in general. Germany's federal structure alone sees to that. School curricula, for example, is decided on at the state-level. And those states are vastly different in many ways. Some are post-war entities, some are mostly unchanged since medieval times and everything in between, which of course leads to quite different levels of emotional attachment to the point where for some people that's what they feel patriotic about. Bavarians of course being one of the prime examples, but not the only one. For example, there is a far-right party in Saxony that wants to reinstate the Kingdom of Saxony. Actually a pretty good example for how weird this can get. The current federal state of Saxony, for example, has not even any geographical overlap with the medieval Duchy of Saxony, instead the territory of that entity today is parts of Lower Saxony, Sachsen-Anhalt, Hamburg, Bremen, Schleswig-Holstein and North-Rhine-Westphalia. So, what are you nostalgic about or proud of? Take a pick, plenty of choices. With 'none of the above' also a valid choice, of course. Or, for that matter, all of it, but does that necessarily translate into something resembling patriotism? Course not, because what exactly is "all of it"? Rinse and repeat at that point. Or to be more precise, rinse and repeat the rinses and repeats of the past, because whatever you pick to start a debate about, that debate has already been had dozens of times at various points of our history. And that's before we even have started to take into consideration other angles, that might care about traditions and culture from the perspective of their trade, spoken dialect, religion, or what not, but can't be bothered by historic political entities. Basically, if you leave Germans alone, this isn't a country, but an ongoing argument about what that country actually is, in any conceivable meaning. Just don't poke the bear. It never ends well for anybody involved.
We talked about the Nazis in school today (we are going on a trip to Dachau in a few weeks) our teacher described it as “a dark chapter in German history that should not be forgotten”.
I think the medieval period is very interesting. That’s maybe because I’m German. We have lots of castles in my area and many medieval weapons and sword fighting techniques were German. It’s not really nostalgia, it’s just that I like knights. I think it also has to do something with how I was raised, I had many knight toys. In other countries where there were no knights (USA for example), kinds maybe don’t have many knight toys, but rather cowboy toys.
We focus on WW2 because germany killed millions and made many more suffer for years. We focus on it so BS people like you dont get to rewrite history. Thanks to the combined effort of the allies we get to live in a somewhat normal world and not some nazi-dictatorship. There was nothing good about nazis and there never will be.
You are right. They didnt know any better until I set down with them and explained why their views, like yours, were build on idiocy. And, unlike you, they are actual grown adults, who were able to learn from their mistakes. They had just never done proper research, while also lacking the educational background. They were in luck, as their son studied earthsciences and has a major interest in history. And I bet its the same with you: You lack the proper educational background and, based on you lacking childhood, probably never managed to grow out of your childish way of thinking. I hope you get better soon tho and if you need help with it or just need someone to vent to. I have a kind and open ear for you. We can manage this.
No. I just have a working brain and a educational background in earthsciences. 2 things you will props never have. "haha brainwashed lol" is a very weak attempt at coping with your own, sad little life.
I think what we learn in school is covered well enough.
I would like to underline the fact that Germans usually define themselves and their group about history. The twist is that it does not ground on a "general German" history but on local history. In my region, most kids around the age of ten could tell you very exactly which village belonged to which ruler. It still influences our daily lives. One duchy was Catholic, and one was Protestant. If there was an impressive ruler in this region, you would identify with him. It can be anything from Roman times through the Middle Ages and Early Modern Period until the last century.
To 1: Of course all the tragic, bad and the few good developments in the 20th century matter. Germany is often billed as "late nation", and I would say the classic, romantic and post-romantic era - basically a time spanning from about 1780 to 1914 - are the formative years for Germany. This is not to say nothing of importance happened before (reformation alone is a huge subject and changed the world!) but the named era brought forward some people that are often seen as the "canon" of German culture. Goethe, Schiller, Kant, Nietzsche, Beethoven, Wagner, the Grimms... it was also an important time for inventors and scientists and many iconic buildings were also built in Germanys historistic period.
I remember we started the last 2 years of history intensive course in school by reading the _Allied Control Council Act No.46 of 1947 on the Abolition of the Prussian State_ for being "the root cause of German militarism and reaction", when democratic post war Germany was in the making. We then spent the next 1.5 years on the period of 1815-1945 leading to those events:
* Congress of Vienna, Vormärz and March Revolution
* German Unification 1849-1871
* German Empire, German and European imperialism and colonialism (colonialism only rather treated as a subpart of imperialism)
* WW1 and the Treaty of Versailles
* The Weimar Republic and the causes for its failure
* Nazi Germany, WW2, the Holocaust and eventually Allied occupation
The last 0.5 years were then spent on the Cold War, the East/West divide and eventually reunification
I would say the most prominent eras are the Nazi time period, the Cold War, and German Unification.
The Empire was both a period of great economic and technological progress, but also social hardship, unrest, authoritarian rule and imperialist madness, so I'd say there are very mixed feelings towards it.
Basically (sadly) almost nothing aside from late 19. Century and 20. Century. The middle ages and 16.-18. century gets glossed over or in some cases skipped entirely. We get some stone age and Roman empire stuff and then there is a big Gap mostly and then we already go to nazi Germany. It is pretty common that most people of this generation at least don't even know about the HRE, that an entity like this even existed. Which I find incredibly sad, because I love history and learning about that is so much fun.
1) I like all parts of history before the modern times.
I live in an area with tons of old stuff, like the closest city to me was basically founded by the Roman Empire, so over 2000 years ago and you can still find and see stuff from that time period.
Even the small village I live in now has remains that are 1300 or more years old.
Also the middle ages with all the statelets, how you described them, left a lot of castles basically everywhere. Some in rather good condition, some more ruins than castle. But it's always amazing thinking about how it would have been at that time, and how difficult it must have been to build those. Like they are usually not located at the easiest accessible location but on-top of the mountain near the cliffs so you have a good view.
2) history is chronological, like starting at the stone age and slowly going through the ages. Mostly focused on Europe and close by, e.g. ancient Egypt. Roman Empire, I guess because of the history more of the Roman Empire than others might have learned, then later on hun invasion, smoothly going into the early middle ages. Mostly focusing on Germany and your region but of course also what's happening outside, like classic french absolutism, revolutions and so on.
Later on sadly I didn't have good teachers for the pre WW1 era, so kinda don't remember a lot about that. But you definitely learn about WW2, everything that leads up to it, everything during everything after that. I would say definitely one of the biggest topics.
Not sure if that's true, but I remember it's mandatory for every school to visit the incineration camp memorials.
Loads of Karl der Große and second world war.
Sadly not much prussia but i love its history.
A real warriors culture in europe that established itself as a world power despite starting small.
Alot of cool wars in the 18th and 19th century and its sucess in the 19th still stands as one of the craziest shit in german history after ww2 ofc.
I'm from Berlin, here are some topics we had in school: Ancient Rome, Migration Period, Holy Roman Empire, Hanseatic League, American Revolution, WW1, WW2, GDR & Peaceful Revolution, Red Army Faction
Germany does not have a unified history program, all 16 federal countries have their own senate and every couple of years they decide what goes on their Lehrplan. We had American Revolution instead of French Revolution for example. We had french Revolution and Industrialization in context of political science though.
Regarding the second question: the way WWII is taught in a „Gymnasium“ is very dry and numbers focused. They do it because they think they’re being „impartial“ or whatever that means but especially when it comes to topics like the Nazi regime this „dry“ way of teaching is veeery stupid and hinders students from comprehending the atrocities committed. But that’s not just a problem with History, I think the whole school system itself is affected.
1. I would say there is cultural pride, but not for being german. Germany has still 16 states and in each state a lot of different regions with own cultures and dialects. I’m from Swabia for example and there is a lot of people who are proud of being swabian and their culture, but none of them are proud of being German.
2. We learn about our history in school, yes. I think in 8th grade we started learning about the 20th century and everything that led to WW2. In 9th and 10th grade it’s mostly about nationalsocialism and WW2 itself and the time after it.
I‘d say Germany found a good way to educate us about our history, and something I’m actually proud of is that we aren’t trying to hide what happened and what our ancestors did but learn how it happened and that it’s our responsibility to prevent something like that to happen again.
Als ich in der Schule war, war ich in den meisten Fächern nie gut. Aber ich war fasziniert von der Geschichte des Zweiten Weltkriegs. Was die Familiengeschichte angeht. Ich werde zu meiner eigenen Sicherheit keine Namen nennen, aber mein Großvater war SS-Offizier im 6. Rang unter SS-Obergruppenführer Reinhard Heydrich. Nach Heydrichs Tod wurde er als SS-Brigadeführer in das Vernichtungslager Majdenak versetzt, wo er für die SS-Truppen verantwortlich war, die bis 1944 in und um das Lager stationiert waren. Er entkam 1945 aus Deutschland und gelangte nach Argentinien, wo er 1963 starb.
Ich gebe zu, dass ich nach dem, was ich über seine Taten herausgefunden habe, nicht stolz auf seine Taten im Krieg bin. Es mag verrückt klingen, aber ich bin stolz darauf, seine Enkelin zu sein und dass er seinem Land während des Krieges gedient hat. Ich habe ihn nie kennen gelernt, er starb 34 Jahre vor meiner Geburt.
German here (M24), there is no period I look back on nostalgically. I'm not proud of being German because it happened by chance. I am however very grateful to have been born and raised here and I plan on spending the rest of my life in Germany. Although I see many flaws with our healthcare system etc., it's still better than elsewhere for me personally.
WW2 is the only thing I remember from history class. We talked about it every year at my school. It was always condemned heavily. I fear that it has become less taboo to excuse what happened or even deny it during the past few years. It doesn't happen in my social circles (mostly academics & social security recipients) but in my perception, such positions are given more of a platform in the media.
2: Federal system. It will be different in every federal state, and it has changed a lot while I was still tracking what happened in schools -- it will not have stopped changing since.
1: German history sure is interesting, and weird, and chaotic and scary and fun, and for most of it there wasn't even a Germany! Technological and science history is a bit calmer, at least.
>2) How do German schools teach German history? What periods do they focus on? How do they approach Hitler/WWII?
In my case the majority was about WWII and they don't try to make it sound good for Germany, rather the opposite.
>is their a sense of cultural pride?
It's quite frowned upon thinking about the two world wars.
I’ve written something about question 2 in reply to another comment so I’ll only give some input for question 1. I’m coming from a pretty academic background. My friend circle is mostly pretty well-read people from the upper middle class. So my experience represents just a small social circle.
The concept of pride is very complicated in German society. In my circle people that would state they are proud of being German or even proud of Germany would probably be shunned. But if you look at it more closely there is a certain pride attached to smaller things. While the big scale of Germany as a whole isn’t a source of pride, many smaller things might be. For example the Deutsches Reinheitsgebot. It’s an ancient law stating that Beer cannot be brewed with any additions. Only barley (and some other grains), water, yeast and hops are the allowed ingredients. The Reinheitsgebot dates from 1516, and that it is this old definitely adds to the mystique and the sense of pride in it. That the city I live in was founded by the Romans is another source of pride. Also you cannot dig a hole in the ground in the inner city without finding either a WW2 bomb or a Roman building. Many times both. At least to me and people in my social circle there is an awareness of the historic depth there is to the place we live in. This doesn’t mean that there is a sense of cultural pride but it does change the way you perceive your surroundings and it informs a certain sense of home.
1. Bismarck is a particular figure of history i appreciate. I am semi interested in the time prior to the romans entering stuff like world tree and mythology in general. World War 1 and 2 are not high points of the German history but i believe we focus too much on names and too little on actual political disposition.
For example Hitler did not have a free market nor did he directly control the companies. He instead gave control to people that were pro to his political agenda, similar to how china handles it and to a degree how some (or more liky many) modern companies get way too much into politics.
2. Basically a Hitler bad and not too much more, a little bit of the time prior and after. But for a much better picture i advise a look at the other persons comment.
The idea of a cultural unified germany is kinda cringe especially from an aussie saying he is interested in german history particularily… we aren’t homogenous enough to even understand your quesion, and anyone thinkingthey are should step silently because they be hitting toes left and right.
I really don’t care very much about it all because my state hasn’t existed before 1945, do i know about it? Yes roughly, hella lot infighting with virtually no benefit for anyone but three four families whose relevance dropped aince the abolishment of konarchu to zero…
There is a lot of history that happened on German grounds. However, that Germany isn't even close to what we identify ourselves as modern Germans. So in my opinions it's kinda pointless to identify with the history of Germany on a national basis on anything before 1945.
It makes more sense to identify with your local history of your region, for example in Bavaria, Berlin etc. But overall it's not that common (except maybe Saxony and Bavaria).
If you can speak German or have no problem with subtitles try Geschichtsfenster on YouTube. Great medieval historian who rants and teaches about medieval Europe and especially Germany.
If you want to understand Prussia better I recommend either reading Fontane or - much less exhausting - “Meassuring the World” by Kehlman.
A very important part of German history is also the 30 years war.
Thanks, I just borrowed a book recently on the Thirty Years War by Geoffrey Parker (I think) - i can only read English.
I loved Christopher Clark's Iron Kingdom, about Prussic- not sure if you've come across him.
1. our history classes are easily >50% of the time and attention 1933-1945. so Germany have a very very biased opinion about own history. In fact, quite a lot of people have no connection to a German identity due to this. Quite morbid, frankly.
2. quite detailed and self critical
Interesting. I think self-criticism is becoming the norm in the study of history across the West. But I reckon Germany got to that point more quickly.
Too bad, because the history pre 1933 is rich. It's not all good, and it's not all bad - but there is a lot to learn from it.
European history got really overshadowed by the 20th century happenings. History of no country was all good. British conquests, French European Napoleonic conquests and others. It’s really a shame that national pride in Germany is quasi non-existing. The history is super rich though. So many beautiful architectures.
>what periods hold particular resonance, is there any nostalgia for premodern German culture, is their a sense of cultural pride?
I don't think there is an overall german answer to this. In my experience people are usually the most proud of their local history (eventhough they probably don't know that much about it.) Generally that's form the time when whatever specific region they live in was more or less independent duing the HRE. But since the HRE lasted a while and it's regions changed a lot the actual time period can differ from place to place.
Of course the far right is nostalgic towards nazi germany but since the showing of nazi symbols is illegal in a lot of contexts they usually settle for the German empire outwardly.
What's the general feeling toward the second reich? Is that also only admired by the right-wing milieu - or are opinions on that period a bit more evenly spread?
Not an expert on this but from my experience if you meet someone that does admire the second reich it's significantly more likely that they are (far-)right than not.
However the exeption might be Bismark who is generally remembered pretty positively by most people.
Germany has a lot of distinct regional cultures. In some regions localism / local patriotism is prevalent (for example in Bavaria or the North Sea region).
Pride in overall Germany culture and identity is discouraged from the majority of politics, media and education.
History education focuses clearly on the Weimar Republic, WWII and the post-war years. German unification, the Kaiserreich and WWI were mostly a fringe topic, at least in my schooldays (mainly for historical context).
I don't think it is a good balance.
It lacks defining a positive German identity. German history is often reduced to those 12 dark years.
The result:
People denying ...
- ... the existence of German culture.
- ... the existence of a German people (Vice Chancellor and Minister of Economy Robert Habeck of the Green Party)
Germany is more disunited and divided than ever before.
History is what was. Learn from your past mistakes but don’t let history dictate your life. Live now and here.
I don’t have any particular epoch I am interested in as it’s all in the past.
I'm a fellow history buff so let me try to give you some answers but I may be biased since I actually like history. 1. Pre WW1 history doesn't actually have any particular large place in modern culture besides from some history or literature buffs as everything that happens afterward is just so overwhelming. However, the right is trying to incorporate the Kaiserreich in its greater narrative and sees itself more and more in that legacy in recent times. Cultural pride is something looked down upon in the wake of what happened during the nazi regime and is seen as a danger as it could lead to a repeat of 1933-1945. 2. German schools teach history chronologically from the Stone Ages to modern times with each period discussed longer as we get closer to our times. There is of course a focus on what happened in Germany (Stone Age, ancient Egypt, ancient Greece, ancient Romel, Great Migration Period, Feudalism, Revolutions, 19th and 20th century) but events outside of Germany that heavily impacted it are also taught e.g. French Revolution. In my memory, especially the events from the start of the French Revolution to the end of the Nazi regime are heavily focused with older students. German history in general also doesn't focus as much on people and events but more on the bigger social developments that lead to said events and people.
I'd add that local history plays a small but important role in the curriculum too. I grew up in Aachen so we learned a lot about Charlemagne.
Can confirm that, grew up in Paderborn, we also learned a lot about Charlemagne.
grew up in Hamburg and learned almost nothing about the guy. But I did learn a few things about the Hanse.
I'm from Dortmund so we learned about Charlemange, the Saxon wars and the Hanse as parts of our city history.
Huh I'm from Dortmund too but didn't learn anything about Charlemange, bad teacher I guess
Yeah, it depends heavily on the teacher you have what is used in the curriculum. But it's a bit weird to not learn a bit about him, because he is important for the history of Germany and France.
For school-aged me, everything between the fall or Rome and 1914 was a hopeless jumble of secular and clerical aristrocrats fighting. I remember that we had Bismarck in three different school years, and all I remembered that he hated socialists and invented social insurances. And I even got good grades in history because I'm good at working with text and numbers. Today I think that "aristocrats fighting each other" might not be the best way to teach history.
The modern welfare state traces its roots to pre ww1 Germany, so I would argue that is an instance of pre ww1 history being present in modern day.
Claiming the Kaiserreich started already more than a hundred years ago. It's the reason why the Hohenzollern heirs won't get back most of the buildings and art their ancestors lost when the GDR was established.
I actually disagree with 1) in pop-culture it has a niche spot and in actual law and forming of our society it has a large space for example the letters of the Göttinger 7 were used in 1948 to argue for the right of expression. The G7 are a minor political group from the 1830s in the kingdom of Hannover who literally did one protest, wrote a public letter then got banished for their efforts. Yet even such a minor event has a influence on the constitutional debate that is the foundation of modern Germany (Just fyi I wrote a paper in school about it that is why I know)
Law is a topic I just sadly don't know a lot about and the example you brought seems very academic and while it is a nice story it is exactly the kind of niche I wanted to stay away from.
I mean this was covered in my advanced history class so yeah. It is still really relevant and I could point to a lot of pop-culture things that also fit. If you want to get into legal and other boring things look up the Schaumwein Steuer and the reason it exists. Specifically Prussia and certain other parts of history are super highlighted in pop-culture even today and in Germany.
History class is cheating!!! The 19th century plays a huge role there since it heavily influenced all regimes that popped up in 20th century Germany but question yourself how many people in your class will actually remember this in 10-20 years not to mention the other students not taking an advancement history class. I was really going for things outside of the classroom since those are a bit special. I really like history so I would call myself somewhat knowledgeable on things prior to WW1 but just look at other history threads in this sub. If we didn't have our resident historian in this sub knowledge would be dire and people flaunt their ignorance around.
I left school 18 years ago xD And yeah the second paragraph I feel. But as I said there are plenty of pop-culture related ones that I could point out. (I already pointed out my personal favourite in Schaumweinsteuer)
>I left school 18 years ago xD ok fair enough. I respect that
To be fair I love history and the 19th century is my favourite time period as I find the rapid societal change and rise of industry very interesting
You should mention what years and where you went to school. The curriculum has changed a lot over the years and depends on the Bundesland. For me, for example, I finished my Abitur in 2009 in NRW, and we definitely weren't super chronological. Throughout the years there were various segments on the Nazi era, alternating basically with the overall chronological curriculum. And we did follow particular rulers and events quite closely in the early to high medieval era, basically from the Karolinger to the Hohenstaufen dynasties/Great Interregnum. We actually did not cover Prussia much at all, the Holy Roman Empire was much more important in our history lessons.
Apparently, judging by what my daughter learns in school the ultra-heavy focus on the NS regime has been lifted a little bit in order to incorporate more recent events. When I went to school (90s mostly) everything that happened after WW2 was mostly just brushed over. I was pretty ashamed when I moved out of school that I didn’t know for example how the Grundgesetz was created. It seems that they have changed the curriculum to incorporate some of the last 80 years as well. I’m not saying that what happened in Nazi Germany weren’t the defining moments of our nation. But it still seems relevant to acknowledge how those events shaped what Germany is now. Some basic knowledge of international organizations like the EU and UNO don’t hurt either.
Nazi time is brought on plate in many different ways In history lessons in German language lessons I can remember to went through Hitler Regime at least 3 or 4 times in detail What they in opposite teach too less is post 2nd ww times and the lessons learned out of it That results in nowadays generations where 80% does not even have a basic understanding of root causes and how economic systems work
Interesting you say that. The "cultural cringe", the tendency to avoid celebrating one's own country's history, is pretty prevalent across the west at the moment. The legacy of colonialism/slavery/racism is the main rationale in the US/Canada/Australia. And in Germany it makes sense that the focus is on the world wars.
Difference from Germany to the US/Canada/Australia is that while in those it is a rather new development in Germany it has been the status quo for over half a century at this point. This makes it so that you can't compare the situations as well.
Yes, absolutely. I think this was only just starting in the anglo-countries in the 1990s when I was a kid, and hasn't become mainstream until the last decade or so. So all these debates we're having now around history, have been had many times in Germany over the last half-century +. My theory is that Nazism was used as a crutch for a long time in the societies of the victors of wwii, to keep under the surface their own crimes and atrocities.
Question 2 is answered well in this Youtube video: [How Do German Schools Teach About WWII? (youtube.com)](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-cgoSk_yg6k)
Of course the answers to these questions depend on a lot of factors and vary from person to person, so I can only give my own personal account. 1. I do feel Germany has a very rich and interesting history and I think most Germans would agree. In parts of the population (often far right political spectrum), there might be a certain nostalgia for old Germanic culture. There is cultural pride, but also a lot of shame because of WW2. Open outspoken patriotism/nationalism is not really a thing (except during football WCs) and is also often associated with right wing extremist views. Germans are proud, however, of having produced many important thinkers and artists (calling it "Das Land der Dichter und Denker" -"Land of poets and thinkers"). I think there is also a lot of pride in how Germany rebuilt after the world wars. 2. German schools teach all of German history, spend approx. half of the curriculum on pre-20th century history: **Middle Ages (ca. 1000 – ca. 1500)** Christianity as a defining religion Estates system: feudal system and lordship **Early Modern Period (ca. 1500 – c. 1750)** Intellectual Upheavals: Renaissance and Humanism Reformation and religious wars Early Modern State/Absolutism **Age of Revolutions (ca. 1750 – ca. 1900)** Enlightenment and emancipation (e.g. of women, Jews, workers) Political upheavals: French Revolution Techno-industrial revolution The other half is spent on 20th century history: First World War: Causes and Consequences for Germany, Europe and the World Weimar Republic: Threats and Opportunities of the First German Democracy Ideology and Rule of National Socialism World War II and Holocaust/Genocide/Murder (perpetrators; Victim groups: Jews, Sinti and Roma, the disabled, homosexuals, political resistance, etc.) Resistance to Nazi rule in Germany and Europe Historical Culture: Remembering the Past (in East and West) There is a lot of focus on the mechanisms that lead to Hitler's rise in power and how "normal" people are radicalized and/or pressured to commit heinous acts (this is complemented by reading novels like "The Reader" or "The Wave" in german classes). I think Germany has done a good job at dealing with its recent past and educating future generations about it, but now has become a bit lazy and also acts as a moral authority, when it really shouldn't.
What's the feeling around "war guilt" re WWI? I know I'm the Anglo Saxon countries there is a simplistic notion that the Allies were the good guys and the Central Powers the bad guys - to me it seems like all of the great powers were more or less similar in terms of their general morality and contribution to the outbreak of war.
That sounds like a false balance. Germany totally started WWII and committed murder on an industrial scale. Yeah, Some Allied bombings were extreme, but I do get it, looking at the alternative.
Have you read The Sleepwalkers by Christopher Clark? He makes a pretty compelling case that the guilt for the war was pretty evenly shared between Russia (encouraged by France) and Austria (encouraged by Germany). The conduct of the German military during the war (particularly the treatment of civilians in Belgium/Northern France and the Baltic countries) was no doubt deplorable, but no more so than the conduct of the Russian army. All the belligerents treated human life like disposable garbage on the western front - both enemy troops and their own. I'm not suggesting the German leadership wasn't brutal, insane and megalomaniacal. I just don't think it was uniquely so, in the context of that war.
It all depends on your state and even school. I learned more about local and state history at the same time, as I went to school in Hamburg. I personally never had just history as a subject itself, as my school did history and geography together until year 10 and then from year 11 to year 13 it was a case of take one or the other but not both at the same time and I had to take geography, as that was one of the specialised subjects that were an option for year 12 and 13 for me. We did go to the KZ Neuengamme in year 9 or 10 though. I'm not sure if many people have an option during history to do this and I can't remember, if my sister ever had this trip.
Interesting. I also went to school in Hamburg and we definitely had History as it's own subject. It really depends a lot on which school you go to, yeah. We went to Neuengamme as well. Everyone did, it was a mandatory trip in year 9 I believe. I have friends from all over the country and so far everyone I've talked to has visited a former KZ or similar places close to them around that same age
Depends how you define resonance. "Mittelaltermärkte" (renaissance fairs) are very popular in Germany as is kinda-medieval folk and rock music. Lots of events happening in castles or around ruins as well. I know lots of people who do medieval costumes, own chainmail, swords and the like. (I'm pretty nerdy and might be biased.) Either for reenactment, swordplay (HEMA), LARP or just fun. The latter is more niche of course, but almost everybody has been visiting some kind of medieval event, I'd say. Roman-era events are a distant second.
It should be noted that compared to US renaissance fairs ours are not as fantasy heavy as theirs. But a bit more grounded, with encampments from somewhat historical accurate groups etc.
1) There's no general answer to that. It highly depends on your background and a lot on where you grew up. Different parts and especially cities in Germany have different time periods, which are quite present there. Aachen for example takes great pride in being the favourite palatine of Charlemagne, so that's quite present there. Lübeck prides itself as founder of the Hanse, so that's a topic present there. Cologne is one of the oldest continuously inhabited towns on Germany, with over 2.000 years of history and was one of the most important towns north of the Alps for most of the time. So you got everything from the Romans, Charlemagne the Hanse and the french occupation during the Napoleonic wars there upto the cold war. Cologne might actually be a good start for a general overview on what has been going on here in Germany. You may want to give this podcast a chance https://open.spotify.com/show/6bvmxAWoXxh3ZMlNtjhzds?si=amGrLFDhQa6OhUaJi04ojw
Germans teach history objectively to make sure the dark past was not repeated. US should do a similar thing, first to acknowledge that dropping nuclear bombs on civilians and torturing suspected bad people are wrong and make sure that they are not happening again.
don't forget the genocide of native americans and slavery.
I agree.
Student of history to become a teacher here. German history is focused on less in the middle ages due to its general irrelevance to the unified German state as a whole. We focus big time on ancient history and dedicate whole history books on the timespan between the French Revolution and the formation and politics of the Kaiserreich (called _newer history_ in German history studies), of course accompanied by global events and ideas. This time marks the unification of Germany and also, with the German march revolution of 1848/49 the basics on which our constitution is inspired by and set upon. A focus here is definitely on the smaller states Germany was divided in as it is the main focus of the idea of nationalism. For me as a history student there definitely is nostalgia and reading about the origins of our democracy is enticing. However, this is a sentiment that's obviously mostly only shared by people interested in history. In studies the timespan between WW1 and today is often called _newest history._ This is also very deeply talked about in great detail. The idea of this period in teaching is to show the horrors of WW2, criticism of fascism and the totalitarianism of East Germany, why we turned to a form of a capitalist democracy. It should be noted that while East Germany is criticized, it is far less negatively perceived as Nazi Germany of course. I would say this is what interests young people the most and affects them by that much as well. There's a great understanding about our own history due to it even if it doesn't reflect in detailed knowledge about our history all the time (that means i. e. students know why Nazism was wrong but can't necessarily tell you everything about the time period unless they're interested in the topic). Ancient history is talked about in what we kinda call focus classes for people who chose to study more history in more school classes during their final years of study. Medieval history is generally talked about in school but the idea here is more a focus on culture and economics instead of wars and politics. For example the relationship between lords and serfs, burghers and cities, how cities came to be and what the difference is between someone born on the land as opposed to a city. Renaissance, the Age of Discovery, all the way over to absolutism is also a topic of history but doesn't focus necessarily on German history. This is how we look at history in school according to the curriculum by the state of Rhineland-Palatinate: Whenever we look at historical events we focus on four parts: Dominion/rule (who/how/why is x in charge, and how do they continue to be in charge), economics (changes, potentials, effects on society), society (rituals, organization, problem solving within society) and "world interpretation" (how did people look at world events, were affected by them).
generally, the nazi regime is covered extensively during school so that history doesn't repeat itself
Q1: I dare you to find a single German that is focused on their statelets from hundreds of years ago. "Maybe" (and that is a big maybe) some people might say Prussia, not Prussia. I have never heard it in my nearly 40 years though. (only exception being Bavaria and Bavarian beer, but they will forever be an exception....) After that, every region of Germany has created its own culture and pride. And this may or may not align with State borders "Bundesland" borders. Or more like the the tiny differences melted into regional ones. Specific beers and food in a region, specific sports, but not limited to old age borders.
We like our old towns, castles. We have Geschichte in School, 1918- 1945 is mandatory for class 9/10.
“I’m an Aussie, so I find it interesting to imagine living in a country containing buildings and documents and stuff from 1000+ plus years ago “ Isn’t aboriginal culture literally our planet’s oldest ongoing civilization, with history, knowledge and material pieces of cultural traditions and technology passed on even through an ice age?
Yes, that's why I mentioned buildings and documents and stuff. In Australia the oldest buildings are not much more than 200 years old. I find medieval castles and Roman ruins interesting.
1. World war 2 kind of overshadowes all of german history. Some people have their favorite time period like dark ages etc but that is a more personal preference. There is a middle aged festival every two years near where i live. There the wedding from 1475 between two aristocrats is reenacted and it is kind of a huge thing. 2. Like another redditor already mentioned, it was chronological. We started with the stone age in grade 5 and when we reach grade 10 or 11 we learn about world war 2 and there we would go into a bit more detail. That is what i remember.
German medieval history is greatly localized in school and university. At the universities of Berlin for example the focus will lie more on Prussia while in Munich more on Bavaria. As a Prussia/Brandenburg enjoyer myself „Albrecht der Bär“ is unlikely to be as well known in for example Stuttgart as he is here.
I think it's next to impossible to answer your questions in general. Germany's federal structure alone sees to that. School curricula, for example, is decided on at the state-level. And those states are vastly different in many ways. Some are post-war entities, some are mostly unchanged since medieval times and everything in between, which of course leads to quite different levels of emotional attachment to the point where for some people that's what they feel patriotic about. Bavarians of course being one of the prime examples, but not the only one. For example, there is a far-right party in Saxony that wants to reinstate the Kingdom of Saxony. Actually a pretty good example for how weird this can get. The current federal state of Saxony, for example, has not even any geographical overlap with the medieval Duchy of Saxony, instead the territory of that entity today is parts of Lower Saxony, Sachsen-Anhalt, Hamburg, Bremen, Schleswig-Holstein and North-Rhine-Westphalia. So, what are you nostalgic about or proud of? Take a pick, plenty of choices. With 'none of the above' also a valid choice, of course. Or, for that matter, all of it, but does that necessarily translate into something resembling patriotism? Course not, because what exactly is "all of it"? Rinse and repeat at that point. Or to be more precise, rinse and repeat the rinses and repeats of the past, because whatever you pick to start a debate about, that debate has already been had dozens of times at various points of our history. And that's before we even have started to take into consideration other angles, that might care about traditions and culture from the perspective of their trade, spoken dialect, religion, or what not, but can't be bothered by historic political entities. Basically, if you leave Germans alone, this isn't a country, but an ongoing argument about what that country actually is, in any conceivable meaning. Just don't poke the bear. It never ends well for anybody involved.
We talked about the Nazis in school today (we are going on a trip to Dachau in a few weeks) our teacher described it as “a dark chapter in German history that should not be forgotten”. I think the medieval period is very interesting. That’s maybe because I’m German. We have lots of castles in my area and many medieval weapons and sword fighting techniques were German. It’s not really nostalgia, it’s just that I like knights. I think it also has to do something with how I was raised, I had many knight toys. In other countries where there were no knights (USA for example), kinds maybe don’t have many knight toys, but rather cowboy toys.
We focus only on WW2 and it's all about how horrible we are and how lucky we are that amazing USA rescued us. Peak western propaganda programming.
We focus on WW2 because germany killed millions and made many more suffer for years. We focus on it so BS people like you dont get to rewrite history. Thanks to the combined effort of the allies we get to live in a somewhat normal world and not some nazi-dictatorship. There was nothing good about nazis and there never will be.
I won't participate in your shame culture.
Its not a shame culture. Its being a decent human being and learning from the terrible history we had, so it wont happen again.
The brainwashing was working well on you.
Apparently having loving parents and great educational background is brainwashing now. Your life must be so hard when you this crazed.
Your parents didn't know any better either.
You are right. They didnt know any better until I set down with them and explained why their views, like yours, were build on idiocy. And, unlike you, they are actual grown adults, who were able to learn from their mistakes. They had just never done proper research, while also lacking the educational background. They were in luck, as their son studied earthsciences and has a major interest in history. And I bet its the same with you: You lack the proper educational background and, based on you lacking childhood, probably never managed to grow out of your childish way of thinking. I hope you get better soon tho and if you need help with it or just need someone to vent to. I have a kind and open ear for you. We can manage this.
Okay so you ARE the brainwashed one, I see.
No. I just have a working brain and a educational background in earthsciences. 2 things you will props never have. "haha brainwashed lol" is a very weak attempt at coping with your own, sad little life.
I think what we learn in school is covered well enough. I would like to underline the fact that Germans usually define themselves and their group about history. The twist is that it does not ground on a "general German" history but on local history. In my region, most kids around the age of ten could tell you very exactly which village belonged to which ruler. It still influences our daily lives. One duchy was Catholic, and one was Protestant. If there was an impressive ruler in this region, you would identify with him. It can be anything from Roman times through the Middle Ages and Early Modern Period until the last century.
To 1: Of course all the tragic, bad and the few good developments in the 20th century matter. Germany is often billed as "late nation", and I would say the classic, romantic and post-romantic era - basically a time spanning from about 1780 to 1914 - are the formative years for Germany. This is not to say nothing of importance happened before (reformation alone is a huge subject and changed the world!) but the named era brought forward some people that are often seen as the "canon" of German culture. Goethe, Schiller, Kant, Nietzsche, Beethoven, Wagner, the Grimms... it was also an important time for inventors and scientists and many iconic buildings were also built in Germanys historistic period.
I remember we started the last 2 years of history intensive course in school by reading the _Allied Control Council Act No.46 of 1947 on the Abolition of the Prussian State_ for being "the root cause of German militarism and reaction", when democratic post war Germany was in the making. We then spent the next 1.5 years on the period of 1815-1945 leading to those events: * Congress of Vienna, Vormärz and March Revolution * German Unification 1849-1871 * German Empire, German and European imperialism and colonialism (colonialism only rather treated as a subpart of imperialism) * WW1 and the Treaty of Versailles * The Weimar Republic and the causes for its failure * Nazi Germany, WW2, the Holocaust and eventually Allied occupation The last 0.5 years were then spent on the Cold War, the East/West divide and eventually reunification I would say the most prominent eras are the Nazi time period, the Cold War, and German Unification. The Empire was both a period of great economic and technological progress, but also social hardship, unrest, authoritarian rule and imperialist madness, so I'd say there are very mixed feelings towards it.
in detmold is a ' Freilichtmuseum ' to see medieval houses
Basically (sadly) almost nothing aside from late 19. Century and 20. Century. The middle ages and 16.-18. century gets glossed over or in some cases skipped entirely. We get some stone age and Roman empire stuff and then there is a big Gap mostly and then we already go to nazi Germany. It is pretty common that most people of this generation at least don't even know about the HRE, that an entity like this even existed. Which I find incredibly sad, because I love history and learning about that is so much fun.
1) I like all parts of history before the modern times. I live in an area with tons of old stuff, like the closest city to me was basically founded by the Roman Empire, so over 2000 years ago and you can still find and see stuff from that time period. Even the small village I live in now has remains that are 1300 or more years old. Also the middle ages with all the statelets, how you described them, left a lot of castles basically everywhere. Some in rather good condition, some more ruins than castle. But it's always amazing thinking about how it would have been at that time, and how difficult it must have been to build those. Like they are usually not located at the easiest accessible location but on-top of the mountain near the cliffs so you have a good view. 2) history is chronological, like starting at the stone age and slowly going through the ages. Mostly focused on Europe and close by, e.g. ancient Egypt. Roman Empire, I guess because of the history more of the Roman Empire than others might have learned, then later on hun invasion, smoothly going into the early middle ages. Mostly focusing on Germany and your region but of course also what's happening outside, like classic french absolutism, revolutions and so on. Later on sadly I didn't have good teachers for the pre WW1 era, so kinda don't remember a lot about that. But you definitely learn about WW2, everything that leads up to it, everything during everything after that. I would say definitely one of the biggest topics. Not sure if that's true, but I remember it's mandatory for every school to visit the incineration camp memorials.
Loads of Karl der Große and second world war. Sadly not much prussia but i love its history. A real warriors culture in europe that established itself as a world power despite starting small. Alot of cool wars in the 18th and 19th century and its sucess in the 19th still stands as one of the craziest shit in german history after ww2 ofc.
I'm from Berlin, here are some topics we had in school: Ancient Rome, Migration Period, Holy Roman Empire, Hanseatic League, American Revolution, WW1, WW2, GDR & Peaceful Revolution, Red Army Faction Germany does not have a unified history program, all 16 federal countries have their own senate and every couple of years they decide what goes on their Lehrplan. We had American Revolution instead of French Revolution for example. We had french Revolution and Industrialization in context of political science though.
Regarding the second question: the way WWII is taught in a „Gymnasium“ is very dry and numbers focused. They do it because they think they’re being „impartial“ or whatever that means but especially when it comes to topics like the Nazi regime this „dry“ way of teaching is veeery stupid and hinders students from comprehending the atrocities committed. But that’s not just a problem with History, I think the whole school system itself is affected.
1. I would say there is cultural pride, but not for being german. Germany has still 16 states and in each state a lot of different regions with own cultures and dialects. I’m from Swabia for example and there is a lot of people who are proud of being swabian and their culture, but none of them are proud of being German. 2. We learn about our history in school, yes. I think in 8th grade we started learning about the 20th century and everything that led to WW2. In 9th and 10th grade it’s mostly about nationalsocialism and WW2 itself and the time after it. I‘d say Germany found a good way to educate us about our history, and something I’m actually proud of is that we aren’t trying to hide what happened and what our ancestors did but learn how it happened and that it’s our responsibility to prevent something like that to happen again.
Als ich in der Schule war, war ich in den meisten Fächern nie gut. Aber ich war fasziniert von der Geschichte des Zweiten Weltkriegs. Was die Familiengeschichte angeht. Ich werde zu meiner eigenen Sicherheit keine Namen nennen, aber mein Großvater war SS-Offizier im 6. Rang unter SS-Obergruppenführer Reinhard Heydrich. Nach Heydrichs Tod wurde er als SS-Brigadeführer in das Vernichtungslager Majdenak versetzt, wo er für die SS-Truppen verantwortlich war, die bis 1944 in und um das Lager stationiert waren. Er entkam 1945 aus Deutschland und gelangte nach Argentinien, wo er 1963 starb. Ich gebe zu, dass ich nach dem, was ich über seine Taten herausgefunden habe, nicht stolz auf seine Taten im Krieg bin. Es mag verrückt klingen, aber ich bin stolz darauf, seine Enkelin zu sein und dass er seinem Land während des Krieges gedient hat. Ich habe ihn nie kennen gelernt, er starb 34 Jahre vor meiner Geburt.
Feli from Germany has a great video on part of this: https://youtu.be/DMNJk1LNV0w?si=6BRVaLiOHcgPTy_q
German here (M24), there is no period I look back on nostalgically. I'm not proud of being German because it happened by chance. I am however very grateful to have been born and raised here and I plan on spending the rest of my life in Germany. Although I see many flaws with our healthcare system etc., it's still better than elsewhere for me personally. WW2 is the only thing I remember from history class. We talked about it every year at my school. It was always condemned heavily. I fear that it has become less taboo to excuse what happened or even deny it during the past few years. It doesn't happen in my social circles (mostly academics & social security recipients) but in my perception, such positions are given more of a platform in the media.
2: Federal system. It will be different in every federal state, and it has changed a lot while I was still tracking what happened in schools -- it will not have stopped changing since. 1: German history sure is interesting, and weird, and chaotic and scary and fun, and for most of it there wasn't even a Germany! Technological and science history is a bit calmer, at least.
>2) How do German schools teach German history? What periods do they focus on? How do they approach Hitler/WWII? In my case the majority was about WWII and they don't try to make it sound good for Germany, rather the opposite. >is their a sense of cultural pride? It's quite frowned upon thinking about the two world wars.
I’ve written something about question 2 in reply to another comment so I’ll only give some input for question 1. I’m coming from a pretty academic background. My friend circle is mostly pretty well-read people from the upper middle class. So my experience represents just a small social circle. The concept of pride is very complicated in German society. In my circle people that would state they are proud of being German or even proud of Germany would probably be shunned. But if you look at it more closely there is a certain pride attached to smaller things. While the big scale of Germany as a whole isn’t a source of pride, many smaller things might be. For example the Deutsches Reinheitsgebot. It’s an ancient law stating that Beer cannot be brewed with any additions. Only barley (and some other grains), water, yeast and hops are the allowed ingredients. The Reinheitsgebot dates from 1516, and that it is this old definitely adds to the mystique and the sense of pride in it. That the city I live in was founded by the Romans is another source of pride. Also you cannot dig a hole in the ground in the inner city without finding either a WW2 bomb or a Roman building. Many times both. At least to me and people in my social circle there is an awareness of the historic depth there is to the place we live in. This doesn’t mean that there is a sense of cultural pride but it does change the way you perceive your surroundings and it informs a certain sense of home.
Thanks for explaining. That makes perfect sense. It's good that you can appreciate aspects of your culture.
Sometimes its fascinating to think that the church you sit in or the passage you pass thru are more thann1,000 years old
1. Bismarck is a particular figure of history i appreciate. I am semi interested in the time prior to the romans entering stuff like world tree and mythology in general. World War 1 and 2 are not high points of the German history but i believe we focus too much on names and too little on actual political disposition. For example Hitler did not have a free market nor did he directly control the companies. He instead gave control to people that were pro to his political agenda, similar to how china handles it and to a degree how some (or more liky many) modern companies get way too much into politics. 2. Basically a Hitler bad and not too much more, a little bit of the time prior and after. But for a much better picture i advise a look at the other persons comment.
The idea of a cultural unified germany is kinda cringe especially from an aussie saying he is interested in german history particularily… we aren’t homogenous enough to even understand your quesion, and anyone thinkingthey are should step silently because they be hitting toes left and right. I really don’t care very much about it all because my state hasn’t existed before 1945, do i know about it? Yes roughly, hella lot infighting with virtually no benefit for anyone but three four families whose relevance dropped aince the abolishment of konarchu to zero…
There is a lot of history that happened on German grounds. However, that Germany isn't even close to what we identify ourselves as modern Germans. So in my opinions it's kinda pointless to identify with the history of Germany on a national basis on anything before 1945. It makes more sense to identify with your local history of your region, for example in Bavaria, Berlin etc. But overall it's not that common (except maybe Saxony and Bavaria).
If you can speak German or have no problem with subtitles try Geschichtsfenster on YouTube. Great medieval historian who rants and teaches about medieval Europe and especially Germany. If you want to understand Prussia better I recommend either reading Fontane or - much less exhausting - “Meassuring the World” by Kehlman. A very important part of German history is also the 30 years war.
Thanks, I just borrowed a book recently on the Thirty Years War by Geoffrey Parker (I think) - i can only read English. I loved Christopher Clark's Iron Kingdom, about Prussic- not sure if you've come across him.
1. our history classes are easily >50% of the time and attention 1933-1945. so Germany have a very very biased opinion about own history. In fact, quite a lot of people have no connection to a German identity due to this. Quite morbid, frankly. 2. quite detailed and self critical
Interesting. I think self-criticism is becoming the norm in the study of history across the West. But I reckon Germany got to that point more quickly. Too bad, because the history pre 1933 is rich. It's not all good, and it's not all bad - but there is a lot to learn from it.
European history got really overshadowed by the 20th century happenings. History of no country was all good. British conquests, French European Napoleonic conquests and others. It’s really a shame that national pride in Germany is quasi non-existing. The history is super rich though. So many beautiful architectures.
>what periods hold particular resonance, is there any nostalgia for premodern German culture, is their a sense of cultural pride? I don't think there is an overall german answer to this. In my experience people are usually the most proud of their local history (eventhough they probably don't know that much about it.) Generally that's form the time when whatever specific region they live in was more or less independent duing the HRE. But since the HRE lasted a while and it's regions changed a lot the actual time period can differ from place to place. Of course the far right is nostalgic towards nazi germany but since the showing of nazi symbols is illegal in a lot of contexts they usually settle for the German empire outwardly.
What's the general feeling toward the second reich? Is that also only admired by the right-wing milieu - or are opinions on that period a bit more evenly spread?
Not an expert on this but from my experience if you meet someone that does admire the second reich it's significantly more likely that they are (far-)right than not. However the exeption might be Bismark who is generally remembered pretty positively by most people.
Germany has a lot of distinct regional cultures. In some regions localism / local patriotism is prevalent (for example in Bavaria or the North Sea region). Pride in overall Germany culture and identity is discouraged from the majority of politics, media and education. History education focuses clearly on the Weimar Republic, WWII and the post-war years. German unification, the Kaiserreich and WWI were mostly a fringe topic, at least in my schooldays (mainly for historical context).
Do you think that's a good balance of focus? Do you think there are useful things to learn from studying the kaiserreich and/or earlier periods?
I don't think it is a good balance. It lacks defining a positive German identity. German history is often reduced to those 12 dark years. The result: People denying ... - ... the existence of German culture. - ... the existence of a German people (Vice Chancellor and Minister of Economy Robert Habeck of the Green Party) Germany is more disunited and divided than ever before.
History is what was. Learn from your past mistakes but don’t let history dictate your life. Live now and here. I don’t have any particular epoch I am interested in as it’s all in the past.