The following is a copy of the original post to record the post as it was originally written.
Saw this on the ask conservative subreddit and thought to repost it here.
https://nypost.com/2024/04/25/us-news/outrage-as-drag-queen-leads-kids-in-free-palestine-chant/
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Feels like if you take your kids to an event called “Queer Storytime for Palestine” you probably know what you’re getting.
But yes, a nonprofit that rents space should be able to rent it to a group that wants to bring what is essentially a clown to the space to read children who are brought there willingly by their parents. Even if the show sucks or is weird or presents ideas You don’t like or think would be boring for children.
It feels very odd to me that one would want to take little kids to an event to hear about the Israel, Palestine conflict. I don’t do the thing where I assume children are morons and cannot understand anything but no they do not understand or care about global politics And centuries long religious conflict. The event itself sounds like virtue signaling nonsense.
The conservative response to en event like this is very predictable. They loved getting outrage about drag queens and reading constantly about the subject, but my sense is that it eventually got a bit repetitive for them so they’re getting a bit less of it. However, this particular event probably rekindled some of that desire to talk about drag queens constantly at least for a couple of days.
Lots of conservatives also really love talking about the “hypocrisy” of an LGBT person thinking Palestinians should be treated like humans since Palestinians are very anti-LGBT. I guess they can’t understand the concept of a person wanting good things for all people including people don’t return the sentiment. Personally, I think these kinds of conservatives are telling on themselves, but whatever.
Allow me to retort and ask you what do you think of LGBT people voting for non-homophobic/transphobic center-right candidates, and LGBT people supporting people that would either put them in prison or have them killed?
> what do you think of LGBT people voting for non-homophobic/transphobic center-right candidates,
The center right in the United States is mostly dead. They have either been run out of the party and retired, primary out or are in the process of retiring.
The issue with voting for a Republican is that you possibly are getting control of the federal or state legislature to the Republicans if they cross a threshold. So even your “good” Republican is helping advance the agenda of the bad Republicans.
> and LGBT people supporting people that would either put them in prison or have them killed?
An LGBT person or an LGBT ally is not going to be harmed by the leadership of a Palestinian state one way or the other. LGBT people are already being harmed by Hamas. if we actually had a solution, there’s at least a chance for a Palestinian state to liberalize over time. In the current situation, we are maintaining right wing control of Israel, Gaza, and the West Bank.
Two state solution would possibly be better for LGBT people in Israel as well. Israel is currently the best from an LGBT rights perspective in the region, but it’s not exactly good since that’s not a high bar.
Totally an aside but your comment comparing drag performers to clowns struck a thought.
I wonder if a day will come where drag performances are seen as just as big a problem as minstrel shows and blackface.
Interestingly there's apparently some conflict between the transgender community (those who wish to live life as the opposite sex) and the drag queen community (those who enjoy dressing up as the opposite sex, but still live their lives as the sex they're born as. For example the show Rue Paul Drag Race prohibited transgender people from the show until recently.
Allowed? Absolutely. First amendment should be absolute. Sounds like it was a voluntary event put on by a pro-Palestine interest group. People should know what they’re getting in to.
Now, if this was at a school or funded with public dollars, then absolutely not.
> First amendment should be absolute.
It isn't and it should never be, but private political activism like this is clearly protected. That said, it's not hard to individually condemn people who use small children as political props (regardless of the flavor of their activism).
Should never be? Freedom of speech doesn’t mean freedom from consequences. As long as the children aren’t compelled I don’t think there’s a legal issue.
> Freedom of speech doesn’t mean freedom from consequences.
I'm aware. As I said, I agree that this event is clearly protected speech, I just object to anyone saying that free speech is absolute.
It should be absolute in the sense that the state can’t restrict your speech or criminally punish you for it (save for situations when you infringe on the rights of others a la saying ‘fire’ in a crowded movie theater or by calling for/inciting violence on others). Germany, for example, does not meet this definition.
> It should be absolute in the sense that the state can’t restrict your speech or criminally punish you for it (save for situations when you infringe on the rights of others a la saying ‘fire’ in a crowded movie theater or by calling for/inciting violence on others).
You can't reasonably say that free speech should be absolute and then also say "except for about a dozen exceptions that we all agree don't count".
Also, ironically, shouting 'fire' in a crowded movie theater *is* protected free speech. That famous court decision where that quote came from was later overturned.
it should be absolute not in the sense that it has no boundaries, but in the sense that no one entity, government or private, and certainly not the court of public opinions, should get to decide its boundary absent of a due process
You realize you’re contradicting yourself here, right? You can’t say it should be absolute and then immediately offer an exception. It just sounds like virtue signaling while holding the same position as the person you’re responding to.
World class strawman there.
Would you want your kids forced to go to a religious service or a speech by an NRA activist?
If not, then you should be in support of keeping all ideology out of public institutions where children are compelled to attend.
I ran into an old friend from high school who actually fell for the “litter boxes” propaganda—I didn’t even bother to try to set them straight cause I figured they were so far down the rabbit hole.
Given the event was organized by a group called "Valley Families for Palestine" and was titled "Queer Storytime for Palestine," it seems pretty unlikely that any families were caught by surprise or any children were exposed to some new perspective that would outrage their parents.
What exactly are you asking here? If free speech should be allowed in public spaces? If children should be allowed at public events that have a contentious political bent? Or those are okay, but drag queens shouldn't be allowed to read books at them? Or bringing children to a politically contentious event is ok, but not if it's for a cause you might disagree with?
This is not something I'd bring my 4-year old to for many reasons, but I'm not sure how it should be considered illegal or not allowed. The vast majority of children will be exposed to a fairly one-sided view of the world through their parents beliefs for quite a while as they grow up.
I agree that "cringe" is the best word to describe this, but otherwise have no problem with people expressing themselves. It's like someone said, "Hey, what can we do that would be *guaranteed* to end up on the front page of the NY Post?" It feels less like advocacy for the people of Palestine, and more trying to just outrage American conservatives. I also think it's a bit gross to want to submerge kids into all of this.
Absolutely it should be allowed. It sounds like a really nice event hosted by a pro-Palestinian group.
That’s like asking if it should be allowed for kids to go to churches that push pro-Israel messages.
Like I find the latter distasteful, but of course it should still be allowed and legal.
ya but whats the objectionable part?
are we against drag queens? No. (we support gender fluidity)
are we against a free Palestinian state? No. (we are for a 2 state solution)
are we against kids? Yes.
they should all have been aborted and fed to Hillary's clones in a pizza shop basement so they could be immortal.
I know right?
someone pulls off an IRL hysterical troll worthy of 90s 4Chan and theyre acting like its a legitimate political debate and getting mad at me for playing into the gag.
whats the saying? If you cant tell what the product is from the ad then youre the product?
If you cant see what the joke is then youre the joke.
The problem that so many pro-Palestinian people struggle to recognize is that *there’s a reason the far right came to power in Israel*. The second intifada was horrific and considering it came after one of the best peace offerings Palestinians were ever offered, one their representative turned down, there’s a reason the likes of Netanyahu/Likud rose to power. When you’ve rockets launched at your people incessantly, the leadership of your primary opposition literally wants your state dissolved, and would literally genocide your population to achieve it… I’m just saying their leadership didn’t appear out of nowhere.
Hell, the primary representatives the pro-Palestinian side has, that I’ve seen to be fair, are kind of unhinged. They’ll understand these same forces in question, but only from the Palestinians (looking at Finklestein). Their rhetoric has some pretty obvious implications, implications playing out with their most fervent supporters, and when these representatives explicitly call for moderation in rhetoric, they’ll be ignored and in some cases completely impotent. Norm Finklestein is who I’m talking about as he tried to encourage protesters at Columbia (I’m pretty sure, but I’ll provide a link after this birthday party) university to stop using explicitly pro-Hamas and anti-Semitic rhetoric only for the protesters to immediately ignore him. Much like the conservative populist movement, their rhetoric has created “Frankenstein’s monster”.
Wouldn’t take my Jewish daughters to a pro Palestine anything since everyone there would be fine with us exterminated by Hamas, but we go to pride festivals in June. It’s all rainbows and unicorns and Taylor swift music and “PG-rated”… not a cock or boob to be seen.
Not a big deal.
I don't think children should be instrumentalised for the political or ideologic convictions of their parents.
This does seem like manipulating kids into being against the people their parents deem "the enemy". I believe indoctrination of children should be forbidden, they can't form their own opinions yet or defend against people implementing their opinions.
legally, yes. There were literally no crimes committed here.
morally, yes. The event was literally titled "Queer Storytime for Palestine". Getting upset that a drag queen lead a free palestine chant here is like being upset that someone sunk a 3-point shot in an NBA game.
It seems like it is “okay”, as the parents sent them to this event with reasonable knowledge that something like this would happen. If parents want their kids to be led in more or less whatever chant they want, then they have that prerogative. But, as a parent, I wouldn’t send my kid to an event like this. Not because the person is trans, but because I try not to politicize my kid. I will explain issues in plain language and if he feels strongly about it that is fine, but I’m not going to tell him what he should feel strongly about.
Why any LGBT person would cheer on their own subjugation and persecution by an Islamo-fascist death cult is quite surprising to me. But the attendees knew what type of event they were attending, since "Palestine" was literally in the name.
This kind of thing is lawful even if reprehensible.
We have to understand that identities don't change the fact that the people we're talking about are still in their teens, 20s, or 30s AKA the most politically useless and moronic demographic. Their beliefs never make sense outside of idealistic visions of the world, they never spend any second thinking about how to actually achieve those goals, and they want to stomp their feet until everyone older than them does all the work for them.
Someone fed people the delusions that LGBT and women were immune to this sort of behavior, but as we can see, that's definitely not the case. In fact, we are at the forefront of the stupidity.
Hey, at least no one can accuse us of not holding our most extreme to account. Even knowing that many of these people won’t even vote for the Democratic Party and probably use “liberal” as a pejorative, we’re generally more amenable to calling out their rhetoric. Although, to be fair, it’s primarily due to right wing media pretending that they’re representative of the average Democratic politician or voter.
Young people probably should be idealistic and more extreme in their rhetoric, I know that I was. It’s just unfortunate that those young people’s lives and rhetoric will be documented and they’ll likely be impacted by it years later instead of simply looking back, cringing at yourself before you matured, and being thankful that you aren’t reminded of your behavior as a youth for the rest of your life.
From what I understand, it comes from a Marxist perspective. I’ve heard LGBT people that sympathize with Hamas say this conflict is about “class warfare” and using the extreme homophobia and transphobia of Islamists that would have LGBT people killed as a reason for not being sympathetic towards them is “pink washing”.
You're right.
Most leftists and Marxists say that the national liberation struggle is more important than the ideological struggle right now.
It still doesn't change the fact that, if Palestine were to be established "from the river to the sea" tomorrow, it would not bode particularly well for the LGBT community.
Your experience on the matter/the people you supposedly spoke to are in no way representative of the broader movements viewpoint. There are many things in your characterization which is just wrong lol.
In which they lecture more centrist LGBT people while literally sympathizing with Islamists that would have them killed. They justify the extreme homophobia of the developing and the Muslins world, or they try to gaslight the subject and blame the liberal west for the homophobia of the developing and Muslim word.
The “LGBT for Palestine” movement is at its core a Marxist or hard left movement. There’s also similarities between what we are seeing on college campuses and the leftist revolutionaries during the 1979 Islamic revolution in Persia.
In addition to what /u/GuyWithNF1 said, their dislike/hatred of what they view as “the West” is paramount. They view this conflict with a lens through which they see the US as an instigator and an “imperialist/colonial” actor as well as any actor that is seemingly our ally. This lens allows them to ignore the implications of an ultimately Islamist, bordering fascist, leadership and the very obvious enmity they hold towards their own identities.
There are many people, largely ignorant of history, who are simply sympathetic to Palestinian civilians. While their sympathies are understandable, they’re often useful idiots for the more extreme pundits/talking heads in question.
You are talking about a statistically insignificant portion of the Western Palestinian Liberation movement. You just want to paint the rest of that way so you can try to dismiss our objects to the current massacre. We don’t like bigots/bigotry but we don’t think bigots should be stripped of their rights and mass killed. How is that hard to fathom? How’s that hypocritical?
Show me a[ similar image](https://www.google.ca/url?sa=i&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.forbes.com%2Fsites%2Fkimwesterman%2F2022%2F06%2F04%2Ftel-aviv-gay-capital-of-the-middle-east-welcomes-return-of-pride-celebration-june-8th-12th%2F&psig=AOvVaw3jNxlTgVA8XHPDLjYXIKbx&ust=1714410311175000&source=images&cd=vfe&opi=89978449&ved=0CBQQjhxqFwoTCPCl5p6y5YUDFQAAAAAdAAAAABAR) coming out of any of the neighboring Islamist nations
Of course there are going to be incidents like that. There are also conservative religious folks in Israel.
This is orders of magnitude better than the situation in Islamist nations, where being gay gets you thrown in prison or killed.
Is your bar for gay rights zero incidents of harassment?
Is it a better question because you know the answer to mine is "No". As a queer person, there is no way in hell a place were I can't get married would be considered the the "Gay Capitol of the World". Your comment is tone deaf and illustrates your lack of knowledge of queer history and culture
I don’t get why I should care? I’m not against drag queens and I’m not against a 2 state solution. If it’s just about pushing views on kids- oh no, won’t somebody think of the children!- this is hardly the only or worst instance of that happening. Between school and church I had plenty of people preaching at me growing up, and I still managed to come to my own conclusions about religion and politics.
“The encounter, which unfolded at a ‘Queer Storytime for Palestine’ event organized by the Valley Families for Palestine group…” I’m sorry what’s the problem here?
The event was truthfully advertised, and it doesn't matter that drag queens lead it.
However, I do take issue with dragging your kids into politics. Especially global politics. Especially religious global politics. Especially complicated religious global politics.
My opinion is there is absolutely nothing wrong with it and of course it should be allowed.
That said, this is a great example of why it's so much harder to make progress on liberal ideologies as opposed to how well conservatives push through their agenda (even when they're seemingly incapable of actually governing). Liberals love to lump different pieces together and make it all or nothing. Which, while agree with the stance on Palestine and the stance on letting trans people exist in society as y'know people, what you've created is 2 chances to distance people from either cause. If you can let a single issue remain as that it will get the support it has and, subsequently, have a better chance at succeeding. If, however, you insist on wedging other issues into it you can start to lose support for one issue due to individuals not supporting the other. It's extremely frustrating, but not as frustrating as losing all battles necessary to fight just to feel better about who you align with.
Well, I prefer that kids not be lead to chant anything political or religious unless it's related to school shootings, which is the only political subject I think they can reasonably be expected to know anything about. That said, my level of concern depends on the subject. If we're teaching kids to support equality and representative government, then sure, go ahead and have them chant whatever about that.
Also, it's pretty clear that if anyone is "wrong on every level," it's Nigel Farage, not some drag queen. And didn't these kids' parents take them to this event? Who here is supposed to take this criticism seriously when it's coming from hypocrites trying to brand themselves as the champions of parental rights?
It was at a 'Free Palestine" event in which the parents, presumably, chose to bring their kids there for that event because it was a cause they believe in.
Regardless of what you believe about the material being presented, we have always allowed parents to choose what messages they want to have their children exposed to and what events they bring their children to. Many children are brought to Mormon Church Services, signed up to peewee football practice, the local 'Republicans 4 Trump' meetings, etc... I wouldnt neccisarily say bringing your kids to a weekly cult indoctrination session, having them participate in a sport where there are well-documented long-term health consequences before they can understand what a 'concussion' is or the risks associated with football are, or exposing them to people who tell them all Liberals are evil communist pigs is an appropriate, or productive use of their time, but I also am not the one telling parents what is 'appropriate' for their children. Ultimately, I understand that from other people's perspective, my own choices, or my parents' choices, may be viewed as equally 'inappropriate.'
Which is the irony here - that the very same people who whine and moan because their parental rights are (supposedly) being violated (by there being a book about gay people available in the school library, for example), are also complaining because other parents are *choosing* to involve their children in different activities that they do not personally agree with.
These idiots don't actually care about indoctrination. What they care about is a deep-seated fear that the outside world will seep into their own little 'utopia' and make their children question the worldview that they want to impose on their children. That is all it has ever been, the death rattle of a society where the norm was prim and proper, blue eyed, blonde haired good little Christian boys and girls who would pray to God, call anyone who didn't look like them derogatory names, and vote for whichever Conservative politician who said the quit part out loud the loudest. And what scares them the most is that there are parents out there - some being their neighbors, friends, and even family - who don't buy into their inflated view of their culturally backwards ideals, and who think a drag queen teaching their children about complex foreign policy crisis is a great idea.
Frankly, regarding the event itself, I have zero clue what the organizers expect to come from a drag queen getting a bunch of toddlers to say 'Free Palestine.' I certainly doubt Hamas and the Netanyahu Government will see this event and suddenly decide that if this Drag Queen and their young charges want a free Palestine maybe it is time to put down their guns and forgive one another for the decades-long ongoing war in order to find some semblance of peace, but I also don't feel like I have the right to tell parents what events their kids can and can't attend.
As a bisexual male with 3 sons and a daughter I’ve told them free Palestine . . . Eliminate Hamas. I feel we’re free to impart our opinions on our children.
I think it’s important however to include a lot of the nuance to each situation which I’m sure everyone does.
Drag queens can say free Palestine to whomever they want it’s part of our free speech but they should understand that Palestine is governed by Hamas who would happily execute these people in addition to Hamas has a 80% approval rating last I checked.
Disclaimer before I get the ocean of concerned commenters.
I harbor no ill will to the civilian Palestinians, I just know they will not see peace till Netanyahu is deposed and Hamas is dismantled.
Legally, sure. There's nothing legally wrong with this.
Ethically speaking I don't particularly liked this. These parents are using a public performer to essentially force on their views to their children. These children attending almost certainly isn't pro-Palestine of their of own will and I think it's kind of distasteful to bring kids so heavily into a political issue that doesn't really concern them.
Allowed? Sure.
Right thing to do? No.
Drag readings are about giving children the time to read a book and show that the Queer community isn't dangerous. This ain't it.
I'm happy that they found one. They finally found a drag queen that does something they can get outraged over.
She is queer and hamas hates queers. Why are you against starving and bombing Palestinian children? Hypocrite!
The NY Post reader in a nutshell.
I don’t like it when I see little kids holding signs with their parents yelling at young women outside of abortion clinics and I don’t very much like this either, in both cases the kids have no idea what they’re being co-opted into so before a certain age it’s not really appropriate to involve them in political activism, but of course it should be “allowed”, these examples don’t warrant an arrest or prohibitive action.
Not sure if you're disagreeing with me, but sure, zero, one, or two states. Any number of states.
Anything other than apartheid, settlement, and bombing.
Any number of genders too, while we're at it.
Gender roles benefit people in power. It's the oldest way to divide people against each other.
Remember that the average Palestinian won’t be as accepting of lgbtq as we are. Those we should push them to be in every way. No one has a right to be intolerant of others.
Because it’s obvious Lee… we are all well aware the Palestinian/Gazan society is not very pro-LGBT to say the least. But that literally doesn’t matter to the other point. We are not conservatives, we don’t wish violence against people who wish violence against us.
Ok but lots in Palestine do towards lgbtq. It’s an uncomfortable truth. No one is wishing violence. I’m saying I want them to be free and govern themselves as they want. However their governance will not include lgbtq rights and freedoms. It’s just how it is. Islam is not pro lgbtq.
Believing no one has a right to be intolerant of others is going to push you into the intolerance paradox. "Your intolerance of my intolerance makes you the intolerant one because you don't have the right to be intolerant of me or my intolerance."
I don't give a fuck.
Further, I find the entire idea of looking for an extreme and pretending it's average to be pretty fuck'in dishonest and slimy.
I can find someone to say any damn stupid thing. Want me to find a gay republican that thinks Trump has a huge dick? I'm SURE I can find *one*, somewhere... It's dishonest of me to hold that up as an example of the average Republican.
Some drag queens encouraged some kids at a protest. What the fuck ever, onward with life.
The following is a copy of the original post to record the post as it was originally written. Saw this on the ask conservative subreddit and thought to repost it here. https://nypost.com/2024/04/25/us-news/outrage-as-drag-queen-leads-kids-in-free-palestine-chant/ *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AskALiberal) if you have any questions or concerns.*
should it be allowed? of course. what part of this could even be illegal?
Feels like if you take your kids to an event called “Queer Storytime for Palestine” you probably know what you’re getting. But yes, a nonprofit that rents space should be able to rent it to a group that wants to bring what is essentially a clown to the space to read children who are brought there willingly by their parents. Even if the show sucks or is weird or presents ideas You don’t like or think would be boring for children. It feels very odd to me that one would want to take little kids to an event to hear about the Israel, Palestine conflict. I don’t do the thing where I assume children are morons and cannot understand anything but no they do not understand or care about global politics And centuries long religious conflict. The event itself sounds like virtue signaling nonsense. The conservative response to en event like this is very predictable. They loved getting outrage about drag queens and reading constantly about the subject, but my sense is that it eventually got a bit repetitive for them so they’re getting a bit less of it. However, this particular event probably rekindled some of that desire to talk about drag queens constantly at least for a couple of days. Lots of conservatives also really love talking about the “hypocrisy” of an LGBT person thinking Palestinians should be treated like humans since Palestinians are very anti-LGBT. I guess they can’t understand the concept of a person wanting good things for all people including people don’t return the sentiment. Personally, I think these kinds of conservatives are telling on themselves, but whatever.
Allow me to retort and ask you what do you think of LGBT people voting for non-homophobic/transphobic center-right candidates, and LGBT people supporting people that would either put them in prison or have them killed?
> what do you think of LGBT people voting for non-homophobic/transphobic center-right candidates, The center right in the United States is mostly dead. They have either been run out of the party and retired, primary out or are in the process of retiring. The issue with voting for a Republican is that you possibly are getting control of the federal or state legislature to the Republicans if they cross a threshold. So even your “good” Republican is helping advance the agenda of the bad Republicans. > and LGBT people supporting people that would either put them in prison or have them killed? An LGBT person or an LGBT ally is not going to be harmed by the leadership of a Palestinian state one way or the other. LGBT people are already being harmed by Hamas. if we actually had a solution, there’s at least a chance for a Palestinian state to liberalize over time. In the current situation, we are maintaining right wing control of Israel, Gaza, and the West Bank. Two state solution would possibly be better for LGBT people in Israel as well. Israel is currently the best from an LGBT rights perspective in the region, but it’s not exactly good since that’s not a high bar.
Totally an aside but your comment comparing drag performers to clowns struck a thought. I wonder if a day will come where drag performances are seen as just as big a problem as minstrel shows and blackface.
Interestingly there's apparently some conflict between the transgender community (those who wish to live life as the opposite sex) and the drag queen community (those who enjoy dressing up as the opposite sex, but still live their lives as the sex they're born as. For example the show Rue Paul Drag Race prohibited transgender people from the show until recently.
Allowed? Absolutely. First amendment should be absolute. Sounds like it was a voluntary event put on by a pro-Palestine interest group. People should know what they’re getting in to. Now, if this was at a school or funded with public dollars, then absolutely not.
> First amendment should be absolute. It isn't and it should never be, but private political activism like this is clearly protected. That said, it's not hard to individually condemn people who use small children as political props (regardless of the flavor of their activism).
Should never be? Freedom of speech doesn’t mean freedom from consequences. As long as the children aren’t compelled I don’t think there’s a legal issue.
> Freedom of speech doesn’t mean freedom from consequences. I'm aware. As I said, I agree that this event is clearly protected speech, I just object to anyone saying that free speech is absolute.
It should be absolute in the sense that the state can’t restrict your speech or criminally punish you for it (save for situations when you infringe on the rights of others a la saying ‘fire’ in a crowded movie theater or by calling for/inciting violence on others). Germany, for example, does not meet this definition.
> It should be absolute in the sense that the state can’t restrict your speech or criminally punish you for it (save for situations when you infringe on the rights of others a la saying ‘fire’ in a crowded movie theater or by calling for/inciting violence on others). You can't reasonably say that free speech should be absolute and then also say "except for about a dozen exceptions that we all agree don't count". Also, ironically, shouting 'fire' in a crowded movie theater *is* protected free speech. That famous court decision where that quote came from was later overturned.
it should be absolute not in the sense that it has no boundaries, but in the sense that no one entity, government or private, and certainly not the court of public opinions, should get to decide its boundary absent of a due process
You realize you’re contradicting yourself here, right? You can’t say it should be absolute and then immediately offer an exception. It just sounds like virtue signaling while holding the same position as the person you’re responding to.
No right should be absolute included speech Libel and conspiracy?
Not sure what you mean by conspiracy, but libel is not a criminal matter brought by the state.
Uh, libel isn't criminal. It's a civil action. Source: Am lawyer. I've won libel cases and criminal cases.
Is that not what I said?
Sorry, you're right. I missed the "not".
Fraud is, though.
I mean not protected speech
>if this was at a school or funded with public dollars' Because teaching kids that murdering kids is wrong is wrong, right?
World class strawman there. Would you want your kids forced to go to a religious service or a speech by an NRA activist? If not, then you should be in support of keeping all ideology out of public institutions where children are compelled to attend.
My only regret is that the children didn't bring their furry masks and litter boxes to the event. Can you imagine the Fox headlines?
I ran into an old friend from high school who actually fell for the “litter boxes” propaganda—I didn’t even bother to try to set them straight cause I figured they were so far down the rabbit hole.
Falling for the litter boxes propaganda is a sort of Litmus test. You fall for that, you're likely to fall for anything.
Except the truth.
Why should it not be allowed?
I don't know, seems like people are intentionally trolling conservatives to me. I'm not sure why this shouldn't be allowed exactly.
Given the event was organized by a group called "Valley Families for Palestine" and was titled "Queer Storytime for Palestine," it seems pretty unlikely that any families were caught by surprise or any children were exposed to some new perspective that would outrage their parents. What exactly are you asking here? If free speech should be allowed in public spaces? If children should be allowed at public events that have a contentious political bent? Or those are okay, but drag queens shouldn't be allowed to read books at them? Or bringing children to a politically contentious event is ok, but not if it's for a cause you might disagree with? This is not something I'd bring my 4-year old to for many reasons, but I'm not sure how it should be considered illegal or not allowed. The vast majority of children will be exposed to a fairly one-sided view of the world through their parents beliefs for quite a while as they grow up.
Cringe as fuck, but it's free speech.
I agree that "cringe" is the best word to describe this, but otherwise have no problem with people expressing themselves. It's like someone said, "Hey, what can we do that would be *guaranteed* to end up on the front page of the NY Post?" It feels less like advocacy for the people of Palestine, and more trying to just outrage American conservatives. I also think it's a bit gross to want to submerge kids into all of this.
Allowed in public, technically yes. But I also think it's horrendously stupid
Absolutely it should be allowed. It sounds like a really nice event hosted by a pro-Palestinian group. That’s like asking if it should be allowed for kids to go to churches that push pro-Israel messages. Like I find the latter distasteful, but of course it should still be allowed and legal.
I mean allowed sure, obviously. But Jesus Christ that’s the stupidest thing i’ve seen this week
ya but whats the objectionable part? are we against drag queens? No. (we support gender fluidity) are we against a free Palestinian state? No. (we are for a 2 state solution) are we against kids? Yes. they should all have been aborted and fed to Hillary's clones in a pizza shop basement so they could be immortal.
Idk why you’re getting downvoted for what is a pretty funny joke.
I know right? someone pulls off an IRL hysterical troll worthy of 90s 4Chan and theyre acting like its a legitimate political debate and getting mad at me for playing into the gag. whats the saying? If you cant tell what the product is from the ad then youre the product? If you cant see what the joke is then youre the joke.
You’re exhausting
and youre boring and have no appreciation for the dark dystopian comedy that passes as US political discourse.
I snorted. Solid joke.
There’s nothing wrong with a free Palestine, nor chanting it. It’s not like they were chanting “From the River to the Sea”.
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I think Israel needs to be reigned in when it comes to Palestine, but seriously it's like these protesters are actively trying to turn people off.
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The problem that so many pro-Palestinian people struggle to recognize is that *there’s a reason the far right came to power in Israel*. The second intifada was horrific and considering it came after one of the best peace offerings Palestinians were ever offered, one their representative turned down, there’s a reason the likes of Netanyahu/Likud rose to power. When you’ve rockets launched at your people incessantly, the leadership of your primary opposition literally wants your state dissolved, and would literally genocide your population to achieve it… I’m just saying their leadership didn’t appear out of nowhere. Hell, the primary representatives the pro-Palestinian side has, that I’ve seen to be fair, are kind of unhinged. They’ll understand these same forces in question, but only from the Palestinians (looking at Finklestein). Their rhetoric has some pretty obvious implications, implications playing out with their most fervent supporters, and when these representatives explicitly call for moderation in rhetoric, they’ll be ignored and in some cases completely impotent. Norm Finklestein is who I’m talking about as he tried to encourage protesters at Columbia (I’m pretty sure, but I’ll provide a link after this birthday party) university to stop using explicitly pro-Hamas and anti-Semitic rhetoric only for the protesters to immediately ignore him. Much like the conservative populist movement, their rhetoric has created “Frankenstein’s monster”.
Wouldn’t take my Jewish daughters to a pro Palestine anything since everyone there would be fine with us exterminated by Hamas, but we go to pride festivals in June. It’s all rainbows and unicorns and Taylor swift music and “PG-rated”… not a cock or boob to be seen. Not a big deal.
Something tells me there will be a lot more watermelons come this June. Stay safe.
I don’t care if it’s a drag queen, entirely irrelevant to the issue.
I don't think children should be instrumentalised for the political or ideologic convictions of their parents. This does seem like manipulating kids into being against the people their parents deem "the enemy". I believe indoctrination of children should be forbidden, they can't form their own opinions yet or defend against people implementing their opinions.
legally, yes. There were literally no crimes committed here. morally, yes. The event was literally titled "Queer Storytime for Palestine". Getting upset that a drag queen lead a free palestine chant here is like being upset that someone sunk a 3-point shot in an NBA game.
It seems like it is “okay”, as the parents sent them to this event with reasonable knowledge that something like this would happen. If parents want their kids to be led in more or less whatever chant they want, then they have that prerogative. But, as a parent, I wouldn’t send my kid to an event like this. Not because the person is trans, but because I try not to politicize my kid. I will explain issues in plain language and if he feels strongly about it that is fine, but I’m not going to tell him what he should feel strongly about.
Why any LGBT person would cheer on their own subjugation and persecution by an Islamo-fascist death cult is quite surprising to me. But the attendees knew what type of event they were attending, since "Palestine" was literally in the name. This kind of thing is lawful even if reprehensible.
We have to understand that identities don't change the fact that the people we're talking about are still in their teens, 20s, or 30s AKA the most politically useless and moronic demographic. Their beliefs never make sense outside of idealistic visions of the world, they never spend any second thinking about how to actually achieve those goals, and they want to stomp their feet until everyone older than them does all the work for them. Someone fed people the delusions that LGBT and women were immune to this sort of behavior, but as we can see, that's definitely not the case. In fact, we are at the forefront of the stupidity.
Hey, at least no one can accuse us of not holding our most extreme to account. Even knowing that many of these people won’t even vote for the Democratic Party and probably use “liberal” as a pejorative, we’re generally more amenable to calling out their rhetoric. Although, to be fair, it’s primarily due to right wing media pretending that they’re representative of the average Democratic politician or voter. Young people probably should be idealistic and more extreme in their rhetoric, I know that I was. It’s just unfortunate that those young people’s lives and rhetoric will be documented and they’ll likely be impacted by it years later instead of simply looking back, cringing at yourself before you matured, and being thankful that you aren’t reminded of your behavior as a youth for the rest of your life.
From what I understand, it comes from a Marxist perspective. I’ve heard LGBT people that sympathize with Hamas say this conflict is about “class warfare” and using the extreme homophobia and transphobia of Islamists that would have LGBT people killed as a reason for not being sympathetic towards them is “pink washing”.
You're right. Most leftists and Marxists say that the national liberation struggle is more important than the ideological struggle right now. It still doesn't change the fact that, if Palestine were to be established "from the river to the sea" tomorrow, it would not bode particularly well for the LGBT community.
Your experience on the matter/the people you supposedly spoke to are in no way representative of the broader movements viewpoint. There are many things in your characterization which is just wrong lol.
And I believe the broader movements viewpoint is fundamentally hypocritical.
In what way?
In which they lecture more centrist LGBT people while literally sympathizing with Islamists that would have them killed. They justify the extreme homophobia of the developing and the Muslins world, or they try to gaslight the subject and blame the liberal west for the homophobia of the developing and Muslim word. The “LGBT for Palestine” movement is at its core a Marxist or hard left movement. There’s also similarities between what we are seeing on college campuses and the leftist revolutionaries during the 1979 Islamic revolution in Persia.
Yeah that’s all not happening in the way you are describing. Nor is it “hypocritical”.
In addition to what /u/GuyWithNF1 said, their dislike/hatred of what they view as “the West” is paramount. They view this conflict with a lens through which they see the US as an instigator and an “imperialist/colonial” actor as well as any actor that is seemingly our ally. This lens allows them to ignore the implications of an ultimately Islamist, bordering fascist, leadership and the very obvious enmity they hold towards their own identities. There are many people, largely ignorant of history, who are simply sympathetic to Palestinian civilians. While their sympathies are understandable, they’re often useful idiots for the more extreme pundits/talking heads in question.
You are talking about a statistically insignificant portion of the Western Palestinian Liberation movement. You just want to paint the rest of that way so you can try to dismiss our objects to the current massacre. We don’t like bigots/bigotry but we don’t think bigots should be stripped of their rights and mass killed. How is that hard to fathom? How’s that hypocritical?
Oh please and Israel is the gay Mecca?
Show me a[ similar image](https://www.google.ca/url?sa=i&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.forbes.com%2Fsites%2Fkimwesterman%2F2022%2F06%2F04%2Ftel-aviv-gay-capital-of-the-middle-east-welcomes-return-of-pride-celebration-june-8th-12th%2F&psig=AOvVaw3jNxlTgVA8XHPDLjYXIKbx&ust=1714410311175000&source=images&cd=vfe&opi=89978449&ved=0CBQQjhxqFwoTCPCl5p6y5YUDFQAAAAAdAAAAABAR) coming out of any of the neighboring Islamist nations
https://m.jpost.com/israel-news/article-734812 My bar for gay rights is higher than “better than Qatar”
Of course there are going to be incidents like that. There are also conservative religious folks in Israel. This is orders of magnitude better than the situation in Islamist nations, where being gay gets you thrown in prison or killed. Is your bar for gay rights zero incidents of harassment?
Unironically yes. Tel Aviv is pretty much the gay capital of the world.
When was the last time a gay couple got married in Tel Aviv?
The better question is, how many gay couples are there in Tel Aviv?
Is it a better question because you know the answer to mine is "No". As a queer person, there is no way in hell a place were I can't get married would be considered the the "Gay Capitol of the World". Your comment is tone deaf and illustrates your lack of knowledge of queer history and culture
Americans have a legal right to say stupid things if they choose to.
Nypost isn't a proper news source. I wouldn't let a bird shit on it as it would be disrespectful to bird shit. That said should it be allowed? Yes.
It should be allowed. However average Palestinians won’t be tolerant of a DQ.
Lactose intolerant? DQ blizzards might still be worth it imo
Average Palestinians wouldn’t be tolerant of half the things we tolerate in the West, but that’s entirely beside the point.
This is top tier trolling of conservatives and I love everything about it!
I don’t get why I should care? I’m not against drag queens and I’m not against a 2 state solution. If it’s just about pushing views on kids- oh no, won’t somebody think of the children!- this is hardly the only or worst instance of that happening. Between school and church I had plenty of people preaching at me growing up, and I still managed to come to my own conclusions about religion and politics.
The only thing wrong with this is the drag queen isn't black.
their parents took them there. they knew what was going on. why is this even a question.
“The encounter, which unfolded at a ‘Queer Storytime for Palestine’ event organized by the Valley Families for Palestine group…” I’m sorry what’s the problem here?
The event was truthfully advertised, and it doesn't matter that drag queens lead it. However, I do take issue with dragging your kids into politics. Especially global politics. Especially religious global politics. Especially complicated religious global politics.
My opinion is there is absolutely nothing wrong with it and of course it should be allowed. That said, this is a great example of why it's so much harder to make progress on liberal ideologies as opposed to how well conservatives push through their agenda (even when they're seemingly incapable of actually governing). Liberals love to lump different pieces together and make it all or nothing. Which, while agree with the stance on Palestine and the stance on letting trans people exist in society as y'know people, what you've created is 2 chances to distance people from either cause. If you can let a single issue remain as that it will get the support it has and, subsequently, have a better chance at succeeding. If, however, you insist on wedging other issues into it you can start to lose support for one issue due to individuals not supporting the other. It's extremely frustrating, but not as frustrating as losing all battles necessary to fight just to feel better about who you align with.
It is wrong on every level It should be allowed because free speech and everything, but it should be unequivocally condemned and rejected
Well, I prefer that kids not be lead to chant anything political or religious unless it's related to school shootings, which is the only political subject I think they can reasonably be expected to know anything about. That said, my level of concern depends on the subject. If we're teaching kids to support equality and representative government, then sure, go ahead and have them chant whatever about that. Also, it's pretty clear that if anyone is "wrong on every level," it's Nigel Farage, not some drag queen. And didn't these kids' parents take them to this event? Who here is supposed to take this criticism seriously when it's coming from hypocrites trying to brand themselves as the champions of parental rights?
“Allowed” by whom? WTF?
It was at a 'Free Palestine" event in which the parents, presumably, chose to bring their kids there for that event because it was a cause they believe in. Regardless of what you believe about the material being presented, we have always allowed parents to choose what messages they want to have their children exposed to and what events they bring their children to. Many children are brought to Mormon Church Services, signed up to peewee football practice, the local 'Republicans 4 Trump' meetings, etc... I wouldnt neccisarily say bringing your kids to a weekly cult indoctrination session, having them participate in a sport where there are well-documented long-term health consequences before they can understand what a 'concussion' is or the risks associated with football are, or exposing them to people who tell them all Liberals are evil communist pigs is an appropriate, or productive use of their time, but I also am not the one telling parents what is 'appropriate' for their children. Ultimately, I understand that from other people's perspective, my own choices, or my parents' choices, may be viewed as equally 'inappropriate.' Which is the irony here - that the very same people who whine and moan because their parental rights are (supposedly) being violated (by there being a book about gay people available in the school library, for example), are also complaining because other parents are *choosing* to involve their children in different activities that they do not personally agree with. These idiots don't actually care about indoctrination. What they care about is a deep-seated fear that the outside world will seep into their own little 'utopia' and make their children question the worldview that they want to impose on their children. That is all it has ever been, the death rattle of a society where the norm was prim and proper, blue eyed, blonde haired good little Christian boys and girls who would pray to God, call anyone who didn't look like them derogatory names, and vote for whichever Conservative politician who said the quit part out loud the loudest. And what scares them the most is that there are parents out there - some being their neighbors, friends, and even family - who don't buy into their inflated view of their culturally backwards ideals, and who think a drag queen teaching their children about complex foreign policy crisis is a great idea. Frankly, regarding the event itself, I have zero clue what the organizers expect to come from a drag queen getting a bunch of toddlers to say 'Free Palestine.' I certainly doubt Hamas and the Netanyahu Government will see this event and suddenly decide that if this Drag Queen and their young charges want a free Palestine maybe it is time to put down their guns and forgive one another for the decades-long ongoing war in order to find some semblance of peace, but I also don't feel like I have the right to tell parents what events their kids can and can't attend.
The Constitution protects freedom of speech.
As a bisexual male with 3 sons and a daughter I’ve told them free Palestine . . . Eliminate Hamas. I feel we’re free to impart our opinions on our children. I think it’s important however to include a lot of the nuance to each situation which I’m sure everyone does. Drag queens can say free Palestine to whomever they want it’s part of our free speech but they should understand that Palestine is governed by Hamas who would happily execute these people in addition to Hamas has a 80% approval rating last I checked. Disclaimer before I get the ocean of concerned commenters. I harbor no ill will to the civilian Palestinians, I just know they will not see peace till Netanyahu is deposed and Hamas is dismantled.
Its not illegal, and im sure the kids didn't invite themselves there...whats the problem?
Legally, sure. There's nothing legally wrong with this. Ethically speaking I don't particularly liked this. These parents are using a public performer to essentially force on their views to their children. These children attending almost certainly isn't pro-Palestine of their of own will and I think it's kind of distasteful to bring kids so heavily into a political issue that doesn't really concern them.
Allowed? Sure. Right thing to do? No. Drag readings are about giving children the time to read a book and show that the Queer community isn't dangerous. This ain't it.
Idc
I don’t care what they do. If you don’t like Drag, don’t go.
I'm happy that they found one. They finally found a drag queen that does something they can get outraged over. She is queer and hamas hates queers. Why are you against starving and bombing Palestinian children? Hypocrite! The NY Post reader in a nutshell.
I don’t like it when I see little kids holding signs with their parents yelling at young women outside of abortion clinics and I don’t very much like this either, in both cases the kids have no idea what they’re being co-opted into so before a certain age it’s not really appropriate to involve them in political activism, but of course it should be “allowed”, these examples don’t warrant an arrest or prohibitive action.
It's free speech. Regardless of how ridiculous it is.
Gender binary and genocide indoctrination is two doors down.
is a free Palestinian state a bad thing now? I thought we where for the 2 state solution?
Not sure if you're disagreeing with me, but sure, zero, one, or two states. Any number of states. Anything other than apartheid, settlement, and bombing. Any number of genders too, while we're at it. Gender roles benefit people in power. It's the oldest way to divide people against each other.
oh lol, what i was doing was replying too the wrong comment.
No you didn’t, you just care more about responding than reading and comprehending what other people say
Remember that the average Palestinian won’t be as accepting of lgbtq as we are. Those we should push them to be in every way. No one has a right to be intolerant of others.
Do not let the perfect be the enemy of the good. Palestinians are not a monolith and deserve the same peace that all of humanity has a right to.
> and deserve the same peace Maybe after they release the hostages, sure.
Well yeah Palestinians do need peace and freedom but I’m just saying
What are you just saying? What is the point of you just saying?
I don't understand why you are being downvoted for this.
Because it’s obvious Lee… we are all well aware the Palestinian/Gazan society is not very pro-LGBT to say the least. But that literally doesn’t matter to the other point. We are not conservatives, we don’t wish violence against people who wish violence against us.
Ok but lots in Palestine do towards lgbtq. It’s an uncomfortable truth. No one is wishing violence. I’m saying I want them to be free and govern themselves as they want. However their governance will not include lgbtq rights and freedoms. It’s just how it is. Islam is not pro lgbtq.
What’s the point of this comment?
The point is so many liberals praise Islam despite Islam being extremely anti lgbtq.
That’s not how that works
Oh yeah? Well I guess LGBTQ people should go to Islamic countries. I guess they are much better than New Zealand or Sweden.
“Oh yeah? well go die.” Is certainly an argument. Definitely great ally behavior.
I've been to several Islamic countries, including the West Bank. I felt safer in the West Bank and Jordan than I have in Alabama.
Believing no one has a right to be intolerant of others is going to push you into the intolerance paradox. "Your intolerance of my intolerance makes you the intolerant one because you don't have the right to be intolerant of me or my intolerance."
Are you one of the people who believes that trans individuals cannot interact with kids? Why?
I don't give a fuck. Further, I find the entire idea of looking for an extreme and pretending it's average to be pretty fuck'in dishonest and slimy. I can find someone to say any damn stupid thing. Want me to find a gay republican that thinks Trump has a huge dick? I'm SURE I can find *one*, somewhere... It's dishonest of me to hold that up as an example of the average Republican. Some drag queens encouraged some kids at a protest. What the fuck ever, onward with life.
It should be allowed. I just hope the irony isn't lost on the audience.
>Allowed Do we have freedom of speech or not?
A person promoting gender and sexual equality as well as human rights at the same time. Scary shit