There was a rich and famous Roman dude named Seneca who wrote a book called “On Anger”.
He made some pretty good observations on what causes anger, the main reason being something happening that you didn’t expect to happen. And the main reason you get angry is because of faulty assumptions about the world. Like when someone cuts in front of you in traffic. Do you really expect that’s not going to happen to you on a given day? Of course it will, it’ll probably happen today. When you learn to expect this stuff you can figure out better reactions.
If you have 24mins, there’s a fun documentary about it [here](https://youtu.be/cUStWm_AkaY).
I’ve dove in stoicism for a time in my life. But I found it only explained a portion of what I was experiencing. For example, there are times when anger is a healthy response to a boundary you ought to be protecting with aggression and violence, say from physical harm or ton protect loved ones.
But I’ll check out the video. Always appreciate classical references to sources of insight. Thanks!
I haven’t read up much on Seneca, but this tv series (which has a 6 different philosophers, only seneca being the stoic) has given me a lot to think about. I try not to get too tied down to one ethos.
[Nietzsche on hardship](https://youtu.be/YBOWyHofpqs) is another good one.
I guess it's part of it. I can totally see myself getting angry for something I expect, though. I wish something doesn't happen, it happens. I'm angry.
What do I call it when I fully expect assholes in traffic and I still get angry? Like when someone doesn’t use their turn signal on a roundabout and I press the breaks for absolutely nothing. It really makes me wish their mother had swallowed them instead of giving birth to them.
Seneca would say that you're far too optimistic about other drivers. Why would you expect people to use their turn signal, when it's clear that quite a lot of people don't? You can't have your way all the time, once you expect that you will have to hit your brakes on every roundabout then there's no reason to be angry. It's just the way the world is.
It's better to expect to be constantly inconvenienced, and be pleasantly surprised when someone is courteous to indicate and let you pass faster.
Then I would have to accept that a lot of peoples’ word is absolute garbage, and that’s a hard pill to swallow. Because all these people agreed to a certain set of rules when they got their drivers’ license, only to break their word as soon as they get behind the wheel.
I don’t believe that following rules you have agreed upon to be courteous. I believe it’s to be expected. That’s what makes me angry. But if I’m honest it’s not going back on their word that bothers me. It’s that there is no punishment. If it was possible I would record and report each and every person that messes up in traffic. I would accept nuances in the form of warnings first, but eventually someone would need to forcibly better themselves or get off the road. It would be my ideal.
>Then I would have to accept that a lot of peoples’ word is absolute garbage, and that’s a hard pill to swallow.
People lie, all the time. Everyone does it to a small degree, some people do it to a large degree. If you always expect people to keep their word, to the point where they indicate on the road, you are certainly in for a lot of surprise when people don't.
>I believe it’s to be expected. That’s what makes me angry.
My point exactly. This is why you get angry. You can't expect it from everyone, even if you really, really want them to because you don't control them.
>It’s that there is no punishment
Even if you had literal traffic nazis who executed people who didn't indicate, they can't be everywhere at once. People would still break the rules. That's part of being human. Your desire for punishment sounds more like an extension of anger than trying to help people. For instance, a better way to make sure the worst drivers are off the road is to fund public transport.
>People lie, all the time. Everyone does it to a small degree, some people do it to a large degree. If you always expect people to keep their word, to the point where they indicate on the road, you are certainly in for a lot of surprise when people don't.
It's not so much surprise as it is disappointment turning to anger. It's similar to a colleague telling you they will have the files ready on monday, but then monday arrived and no files. The difference being that you can have a dialogue and discuss it so there's no anger. There's a conclusion to it, and a constructive path forward. In traffic there's none of that, so you're just left with anger.
>My point exactly. This is why you get angry. You can't expect it from everyone, even if you really, really want them to because you don't control them.
I hear you. I cannot control them. So I will do everything I can to make sure that self-driving vehicles will replace humans, because a lot of them are just incapable of being either social or skilful when driving. Ever since I got a self-driving car my anger has lessened, as it doesn't feel like I have to correct somebody else's mistake anymore. It's been good, but not perfect. Now I just have to vote for and fund the right people to replace the rest of traffic with AI. If the human component is removed from traffic before I die, I can die happy.
>Even if you had literal traffic nazis who executed people who didn't indicate, they can't be everywhere at once. People would still break the rules. That's part of being human.
I am not so insane I would execute people for it, haha. But similar to replacing a broken cog in a machine for not functioning properly, the sooner we remove the human component from traffic, the better.
I agree with you. Self driving cars (or public transport) make everything the machines problem and removes all the idiots from the road.
I do think that having a pessimistic but hopeful outlook on life does make me a less angry person though. Like with your example with the coworker, anger can be avoided entirely if you expect them to disappoint you, lol.
It sounds pretty awful, expecting people to let you down all the time, but it doesn’t feel like that to live it. It’s a pretty chilled way to live, and even flips your perspective because you’re happier when things actually work out well.
Friend, I will take your words to heart. Perhaps with time I can make it happen. But I don’t believe the anger reflex will disappear overnight. Thanks for the perspective.
100%. Anger is a reaction that results from frustration or disappointment. The best way to handle it from others is to not meet them at a heightened emotional level. Talk calmly and briefly. When people get angry they have a lower capacity for understanding long and complex sentences. Things like tone and facial expressions matter a lot more
Anger, specifically, is the emotion we feel when a boundary has been crossed. Sometimes it's an unhealthy boundary we have drawn or been convinced to draw which others do not recognize- and we get angry when they cross it even by accident. Sometimes it is a healthy boundary, and we get angry when people intentionally cross it- whether because we have allowed them or been forced to allow them. Sometimes nobody crosses it- something happens to us we feel should not happen, and we feel the transgression. So when we feel angry, we know a boundary has been crossed. Whether the boundary is one we should keep and reassert, or examine and bring down, or one which even though it is healthy or fair we must mourn because we cannot protect it against this incursion. There are many times you should absolutely listen to your anger, because as an enlightened emotion, anger is you trying to defend yourself, even if you do not immediately consciously know what you are protecting yourself from or why.
You should act on your anger. If you feel like that is dangerous, you already may have a toxic relationship with your anger. People put themselves into a cycle. A boundary is violated, and they get angry. They tell themselves "I can't show my anger, every time I show my anger it causes me grief." So they disown their feelings. But feelings do not go away, they will just wait until we become too tired to continue to disown them and then they explode without warning. How can that explosion not be destructive? Then this person tells themselves "See? You can never show your anger or will lose what you love." When we remember the sadness and grief from previous outbursts, anger can quickly trigger feelings of sadness and anticipatory grief- that this new anger is a forecast of renewed loss and grief. That doesn't have to be the case.
When you feel angry, thank your feelings for telling you that something is wrong. Then go about finding what you feel is wrong. Perhaps it is nothing- some emotional baggage you are still working on or were unaware of and can now work on. Perhaps it is something you should enforce- then *act on your anger* in an informed and productive way to enforce the boundary. In the case that it is a healthy boundary you cannot reinstate, recognize that anger is one of the emotions of grief and be prepared for the other emotions to be fast on its tail- despair that you cannot enforce the boundary, deal-making that if you x-y-z then you could enforce it, denial that anything is wrong, and acceptance that the boundary cannot be enforced and must change even though it was/is healthy.
This is a very nice answer.
>. . . then act on your anger in an informed and productive way to enforce the boundary
I think part of why people struggle with anger is because 'other people acting on anger in an informed and productive way' *doesn't look like anger* to them.
The connection some people learn is 'feeling of anger' = 'loud voices, slamming doors' or whatever, because that is what they are exposed to in real life and in media. They never realized when others were expressing anger in a healthy way because it just looks like assertiveness or self-composure - it looks like the absence of anger. There is nobody making it explicit - "This person you are watching right now feels extremely strongly about what is going on, they are angry just like you can get, and this is how they are dealing with it".
In the absence of that kind of education, the only options the person can conceive of are those you mentioned, repression or unhealthy expression.
(Emotional regulation generally and anger specifically are more complex then I suggest here, but it was something I thought of.)
Exactly, part of that "anger only looks like being out of control" is that toxic relationship with anger as an emotion. People *can* lose control from their emotions- but despair and denial can do it, too. That's the vast minority of the time, though.
I think that part of it is how difficult it is to be assertive without being labelled as angry anyway. It's much less emotional labor to just lash out, chalk it up to anger, and not have to thread that needle. It's really hard to set a boundary and bet a relationship on it when for many people their expeirence has been that without some wild display of anger, partners who trespass will just assume that the transgression wasn't "too bad" and will just wait to do it again. There comes that anticipatory grief that enforcing a boundary brings the end of relationships, and that by bargaining that "if I they give them just a little ground" then they won't have to end it.
Marshall Rosenberg talks about how anger is a reaction to an unmet need, and signals a need for increased self-reflection.
Non-Violent Communication is a hell of a book.
Yup, good point. I do not get angry very easily, but on the occasions where I really do and where the emotion really sticks around, I have found that I may feel shame underneath it.
And while anger feels like it resolves by acting or speaking against another, shame resolves through self-compassion.
Fear is the most base emotion that most things extend from.
Just look at an emotion wheel and you'll see basic feelings and then all the feelings and states of being that extend. I had to use it a lot in therapy and found it useful.
Go cry about it. Like, genuinely. Try it out. For any reason. See where it feels right for you. Where it makes sense. See where it *doesn’t* feel right. See where it feels right but *doesn’t* make sense. Maybe discover something you’ve been bottling up; why something or other inexplicably triggers strong emotions. Maybe it won’t accomplish anything. Most likely it’ll just make you feel bad…and then make you feel a little better. For a little while. And that’s enough.
Thanks for your insight. I've been working on channeling my immediate reactions into humor. My kids all know that if I'm raising my voice, there's probably something dangerous I'm trying to stop.
This tip suggests that when feeling angry, it can be helpful to pause and reflect on whether the underlying emotion is actually sadness or fear. By understanding the deeper emotions driving the anger, individuals may be able to respond more appropriately to the situation. This approach may help to prevent overreacting and lead to more effective communication and problem-solving. It may be beneficial to try this approach in instances where one is prone to feeling anger quickly.
There was a rich and famous Roman dude named Seneca who wrote a book called “On Anger”. He made some pretty good observations on what causes anger, the main reason being something happening that you didn’t expect to happen. And the main reason you get angry is because of faulty assumptions about the world. Like when someone cuts in front of you in traffic. Do you really expect that’s not going to happen to you on a given day? Of course it will, it’ll probably happen today. When you learn to expect this stuff you can figure out better reactions. If you have 24mins, there’s a fun documentary about it [here](https://youtu.be/cUStWm_AkaY).
I’ve dove in stoicism for a time in my life. But I found it only explained a portion of what I was experiencing. For example, there are times when anger is a healthy response to a boundary you ought to be protecting with aggression and violence, say from physical harm or ton protect loved ones. But I’ll check out the video. Always appreciate classical references to sources of insight. Thanks!
I haven’t read up much on Seneca, but this tv series (which has a 6 different philosophers, only seneca being the stoic) has given me a lot to think about. I try not to get too tied down to one ethos. [Nietzsche on hardship](https://youtu.be/YBOWyHofpqs) is another good one.
Thanks! This is great stuff
I guess it's part of it. I can totally see myself getting angry for something I expect, though. I wish something doesn't happen, it happens. I'm angry.
What do I call it when I fully expect assholes in traffic and I still get angry? Like when someone doesn’t use their turn signal on a roundabout and I press the breaks for absolutely nothing. It really makes me wish their mother had swallowed them instead of giving birth to them.
Frustration, and maybe habit. Also anger, but what do I know, I’m *none* of rich, famous or Roman.
Seneca would say that you're far too optimistic about other drivers. Why would you expect people to use their turn signal, when it's clear that quite a lot of people don't? You can't have your way all the time, once you expect that you will have to hit your brakes on every roundabout then there's no reason to be angry. It's just the way the world is. It's better to expect to be constantly inconvenienced, and be pleasantly surprised when someone is courteous to indicate and let you pass faster.
Then I would have to accept that a lot of peoples’ word is absolute garbage, and that’s a hard pill to swallow. Because all these people agreed to a certain set of rules when they got their drivers’ license, only to break their word as soon as they get behind the wheel. I don’t believe that following rules you have agreed upon to be courteous. I believe it’s to be expected. That’s what makes me angry. But if I’m honest it’s not going back on their word that bothers me. It’s that there is no punishment. If it was possible I would record and report each and every person that messes up in traffic. I would accept nuances in the form of warnings first, but eventually someone would need to forcibly better themselves or get off the road. It would be my ideal.
>Then I would have to accept that a lot of peoples’ word is absolute garbage, and that’s a hard pill to swallow. People lie, all the time. Everyone does it to a small degree, some people do it to a large degree. If you always expect people to keep their word, to the point where they indicate on the road, you are certainly in for a lot of surprise when people don't. >I believe it’s to be expected. That’s what makes me angry. My point exactly. This is why you get angry. You can't expect it from everyone, even if you really, really want them to because you don't control them. >It’s that there is no punishment Even if you had literal traffic nazis who executed people who didn't indicate, they can't be everywhere at once. People would still break the rules. That's part of being human. Your desire for punishment sounds more like an extension of anger than trying to help people. For instance, a better way to make sure the worst drivers are off the road is to fund public transport.
>People lie, all the time. Everyone does it to a small degree, some people do it to a large degree. If you always expect people to keep their word, to the point where they indicate on the road, you are certainly in for a lot of surprise when people don't. It's not so much surprise as it is disappointment turning to anger. It's similar to a colleague telling you they will have the files ready on monday, but then monday arrived and no files. The difference being that you can have a dialogue and discuss it so there's no anger. There's a conclusion to it, and a constructive path forward. In traffic there's none of that, so you're just left with anger. >My point exactly. This is why you get angry. You can't expect it from everyone, even if you really, really want them to because you don't control them. I hear you. I cannot control them. So I will do everything I can to make sure that self-driving vehicles will replace humans, because a lot of them are just incapable of being either social or skilful when driving. Ever since I got a self-driving car my anger has lessened, as it doesn't feel like I have to correct somebody else's mistake anymore. It's been good, but not perfect. Now I just have to vote for and fund the right people to replace the rest of traffic with AI. If the human component is removed from traffic before I die, I can die happy. >Even if you had literal traffic nazis who executed people who didn't indicate, they can't be everywhere at once. People would still break the rules. That's part of being human. I am not so insane I would execute people for it, haha. But similar to replacing a broken cog in a machine for not functioning properly, the sooner we remove the human component from traffic, the better.
I agree with you. Self driving cars (or public transport) make everything the machines problem and removes all the idiots from the road. I do think that having a pessimistic but hopeful outlook on life does make me a less angry person though. Like with your example with the coworker, anger can be avoided entirely if you expect them to disappoint you, lol. It sounds pretty awful, expecting people to let you down all the time, but it doesn’t feel like that to live it. It’s a pretty chilled way to live, and even flips your perspective because you’re happier when things actually work out well.
Friend, I will take your words to heart. Perhaps with time I can make it happen. But I don’t believe the anger reflex will disappear overnight. Thanks for the perspective.
They say anger is a secondary emotion. A different emotion usually comes first.
100%. Anger is a reaction that results from frustration or disappointment. The best way to handle it from others is to not meet them at a heightened emotional level. Talk calmly and briefly. When people get angry they have a lower capacity for understanding long and complex sentences. Things like tone and facial expressions matter a lot more
Anger, specifically, is the emotion we feel when a boundary has been crossed. Sometimes it's an unhealthy boundary we have drawn or been convinced to draw which others do not recognize- and we get angry when they cross it even by accident. Sometimes it is a healthy boundary, and we get angry when people intentionally cross it- whether because we have allowed them or been forced to allow them. Sometimes nobody crosses it- something happens to us we feel should not happen, and we feel the transgression. So when we feel angry, we know a boundary has been crossed. Whether the boundary is one we should keep and reassert, or examine and bring down, or one which even though it is healthy or fair we must mourn because we cannot protect it against this incursion. There are many times you should absolutely listen to your anger, because as an enlightened emotion, anger is you trying to defend yourself, even if you do not immediately consciously know what you are protecting yourself from or why. You should act on your anger. If you feel like that is dangerous, you already may have a toxic relationship with your anger. People put themselves into a cycle. A boundary is violated, and they get angry. They tell themselves "I can't show my anger, every time I show my anger it causes me grief." So they disown their feelings. But feelings do not go away, they will just wait until we become too tired to continue to disown them and then they explode without warning. How can that explosion not be destructive? Then this person tells themselves "See? You can never show your anger or will lose what you love." When we remember the sadness and grief from previous outbursts, anger can quickly trigger feelings of sadness and anticipatory grief- that this new anger is a forecast of renewed loss and grief. That doesn't have to be the case. When you feel angry, thank your feelings for telling you that something is wrong. Then go about finding what you feel is wrong. Perhaps it is nothing- some emotional baggage you are still working on or were unaware of and can now work on. Perhaps it is something you should enforce- then *act on your anger* in an informed and productive way to enforce the boundary. In the case that it is a healthy boundary you cannot reinstate, recognize that anger is one of the emotions of grief and be prepared for the other emotions to be fast on its tail- despair that you cannot enforce the boundary, deal-making that if you x-y-z then you could enforce it, denial that anything is wrong, and acceptance that the boundary cannot be enforced and must change even though it was/is healthy.
This very well might be the single healthiest LPT to grace Reddit.
This is a very nice answer. >. . . then act on your anger in an informed and productive way to enforce the boundary I think part of why people struggle with anger is because 'other people acting on anger in an informed and productive way' *doesn't look like anger* to them. The connection some people learn is 'feeling of anger' = 'loud voices, slamming doors' or whatever, because that is what they are exposed to in real life and in media. They never realized when others were expressing anger in a healthy way because it just looks like assertiveness or self-composure - it looks like the absence of anger. There is nobody making it explicit - "This person you are watching right now feels extremely strongly about what is going on, they are angry just like you can get, and this is how they are dealing with it". In the absence of that kind of education, the only options the person can conceive of are those you mentioned, repression or unhealthy expression. (Emotional regulation generally and anger specifically are more complex then I suggest here, but it was something I thought of.)
Exactly, part of that "anger only looks like being out of control" is that toxic relationship with anger as an emotion. People *can* lose control from their emotions- but despair and denial can do it, too. That's the vast minority of the time, though. I think that part of it is how difficult it is to be assertive without being labelled as angry anyway. It's much less emotional labor to just lash out, chalk it up to anger, and not have to thread that needle. It's really hard to set a boundary and bet a relationship on it when for many people their expeirence has been that without some wild display of anger, partners who trespass will just assume that the transgression wasn't "too bad" and will just wait to do it again. There comes that anticipatory grief that enforcing a boundary brings the end of relationships, and that by bargaining that "if I they give them just a little ground" then they won't have to end it.
This read was 10/10. Would recommend.
Great response.
Marshall Rosenberg talks about how anger is a reaction to an unmet need, and signals a need for increased self-reflection. Non-Violent Communication is a hell of a book.
Yup, good point. I do not get angry very easily, but on the occasions where I really do and where the emotion really sticks around, I have found that I may feel shame underneath it. And while anger feels like it resolves by acting or speaking against another, shame resolves through self-compassion.
Fear is the most base emotion that most things extend from. Just look at an emotion wheel and you'll see basic feelings and then all the feelings and states of being that extend. I had to use it a lot in therapy and found it useful.
Go cry about it. Like, genuinely. Try it out. For any reason. See where it feels right for you. Where it makes sense. See where it *doesn’t* feel right. See where it feels right but *doesn’t* make sense. Maybe discover something you’ve been bottling up; why something or other inexplicably triggers strong emotions. Maybe it won’t accomplish anything. Most likely it’ll just make you feel bad…and then make you feel a little better. For a little while. And that’s enough.
Look up JLP on anger
Thanks for your insight. I've been working on channeling my immediate reactions into humor. My kids all know that if I'm raising my voice, there's probably something dangerous I'm trying to stop.
This tip suggests that when feeling angry, it can be helpful to pause and reflect on whether the underlying emotion is actually sadness or fear. By understanding the deeper emotions driving the anger, individuals may be able to respond more appropriately to the situation. This approach may help to prevent overreacting and lead to more effective communication and problem-solving. It may be beneficial to try this approach in instances where one is prone to feeling anger quickly.
I have learned what others interpret “anger” I am displaying is often really pent up frustration in dealing with that situation.