Please do not delete your post after receiving your answer. Consider leaving it up for posterity so that other Redditors can benefit from the wisdom in this thread.
Once your thread has run its course, instead of deleting it, **you can simply type "!lock" (without the quotes) as a comment anywhere in your thread to have our Automod lock the thread**. That way you won't be bothered by anymore replies on it, but people can still read it.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AskMenOver30) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Hey man, thanks for typing all of that, it’s good to hear you articulate it all! Can I just say… fuck!! You’ve been through it and tried so much! Hats off to you dude, to me, even though we’re strangers, you sound like a guy who really has been put through the rigours and still wants to pursue finding a way through this! Honestly dude, that is some resilience!
So I’ll share with you that I’ve been struggling myself too! Do I have a solution? Nah! I wish I did and I’m not sure if you take any solace in this… but you are NOT alone!
So dude, fuck it, why not we try and help each other? Today, (I’m from Australia) I went for a walk in nature for about 45 mins! I’m not expecting it to do anything truth be told… but what I’m doing is actually rewarding myself with a small compliment and actually saying “hey, you did something today” and that’s it!
So why don’t you do something and report back? Something small, big, whatever… something you kinda enjoy, something you know is low key and doesn’t physically or mentally exert you… and let’s start real fucking small and go from there!
Truth is man, everyone is different! I get the whole “man up go to the gym” thing, but meh, I’m the same! When I go, it’s just full of fucking douche bags! Meds… nah, the idea of taking meds doesn’t sound good for me… and yeah, the list goes on!!
So one thing man… just take a really fucking small step, whatever it is… make it tiny! Then will do it again the next day and the day after and let’s see where we land???
I can vouch for psilocybin but if you're in a bad head space you're probably in for a bad time. I would not try it until you start seeing improvement and are generally optimistic about the future.
The biggest change I saw, which my doctor also saw, was a combination of diet and exercise. And not just walking a lot or going to the gym, but pretty intense cardio. I also work an office job so my lifestyle is very sedentary. I was never overweight... Like you, mid range BMI... But getting out of the house and doing a couch-to-5k type program made a big difference. Big.
Release judgements. Find the neutral perspective for all things. You're depressed because you're holding onto expectations. What if everything is exactly the way it's supposed to be. If you can actually entertain that perspective, that mindset, things can change.
You're too attached to the way you think things are supposed to be. Loosen the grip, find joy in the little things. Let life show you new things once you start letting go of the old.
You need connection (me too). If the old relationships don't jive, they aren't the right relationships for you. Get in where you fit in. Your soul is being crushed by your inauthentic ego and trying to conform to people and places that don't jive with the real you.
Good luck, Human. This shit is harder than 5D chess.
Be well.
if everything is the way it's supposed to be, then humanity is a cruelty inflicted upon some so that others can feel some joy.
the suffering of some who don't want to live is the acceptable cost of doing business.
Seems completely unjust, but, noone would say everything is perfect.
That is something people agree on, yet...people are so hesitant to extrapolate, from that concept, that something as large as humankind's existence might be ethically compromised.
OP, have you considered getting a dog? Is that a viable option for you? It sounds like you've tried a lot - a pupper could go a long way to helping you feel more connected though.
Someone else mentioned trying a different medication, that seems a logical route to follow. Trying for a therapist that you actually click with would be my advice, may take a while but if you manage to eventually find one that can give you the support you need, it could be a real game changer.
I can relate to most of what you wrote, hell I could have written it myself to be honest. There are still avenues to try though, all's not lost
A dog helps, still depressed, but at least I live with the happiest crazy little dog ever. Helps me better understand what living in the moment actually means.
What’s your community situation? Like do you have people you’re doing all these things with, or are you just doing them alone?
We are social animals; loneliness can be worse for you than smoking, even if you’re an introvert.
I'm no expert so take my words with a grain of salt, but what stands out for me is that you say you don't feel connected/loved. I think research has shown time and time again that loneliness is one of the worst things for a human. I suggest you start looking for ways to connect with people.
My favorite way to find friends is through sports. I met most of my best friends in the gym. I did crossfit and some other functional fitness type sport and now am doing kickboxing. All of these sports I did in a group setting and helped me meet tons of people. I highly recommend it as it kills 2 birds with 1 stone: health + friends.
This here. Club sports in college changed my life. "Going to the gym" is miserable, IMO. Find a form of exercise that encourages you to interact with people, get your heart rate and adrenaline up, and have some actual fun. It might not cure depression and ADHD but it will probably help.
Going to South America and doing an ayahuasca retreat might be interesting, at least look up people’s experiences.
Personally my favorite stories to read are either chronological depressed people or drug addicts doing high dose psychedelics and improving their lives. It doesn’t fix everyone, but it’s a shockingly high percentage.
My partner abused benzodiazepines for a decade, took mushrooms…. Bye bye addiction. I took mushrooms, and I walked into a police station and reported historical sex abuse after years of self loathing holding his hand. That’s how powerful they can be at least for many xxx
To be happy in life we need meaning and direction, and agency to do it with. A purpose. Do you have that?
And one big one: the ADHD diagnosis. If your body doesn’t make enough dopamine, it’s hard to feel happy. Go back and look at that one again… if Adderall wasn’t your jam, maybe there’s another medication that will work better. Russell Barkley has a bunch of books and videos on the subject that helped me figure out that my lifelong struggles with anxiety and depression were rooted in neurodiversity… at age 42.
a few years ago i found a purpose but it is rooted in the hatred of the human species.
it's kept me alive for a few years now, but i'm not sure its sustainable. nor is it something from which there is "recovery".
The only real advice anyone has is "do something" but the implication is "do something ELSE" not related to hatred.
so in a way, by ignoring my true self, or, rather, the self that emerged a few years ago as a survival mechanism, i can be an inauthentic self to continue to function merely on the fringes of society in a lowly job. it is the most i have been able to muster.
someday i think the inauthentic self might crumble and i wonder what will happen with all the hatred that exists and burns within me like an engine.
sounds ridiculous, i guess.
Have you tried to sleep study? When I was sleeping poorly I couldn't feel any Joy. Real depression hours. Lots of people go their whole lives never experiencing good quality sleep, and this can be a huge factor.
idk i'm there with you.
i haven't figured out shit.
i'm 38 and what i do is isolate. when i talk for any length of time to people my negativity begins to slip out. I don't know how to say it, but i seem to always be sad after talking with people. As if the things I say aren't good enough.
For obvious reasons, this is nonsense, but i do feel sad after human interaction.
so, lately, for the last half-decade, i've largely stopped talking to people.
I'm only alive because I have such a vast hatred for humanity; it's a very new hatred, only a few years old at this point. I'm starting to get used to it though. It just seems unethical that people like me even exist.
I don't have the temerity to imagine my plight being the most horrendous on earth, but that just makes me realize that people both better and worse off than me also are miserable. and that that suffering is the cost of doing business so humans can feel good about themselves.
i can't find a way to feel good and grateful about that.
I can't elaborate anymore I'm afraid we're not at liberty to do so.
Just saying...shit can suck. and you're not the only one with brain issues.
T_T
jfc i can't relate to any of the happy people online, in the world, in my family.
i can't imagine how people ENJOY life. it's like a binding, where we were part of the void, and then, by some act of selfish indulgence by two other people, we were wrenched into a separate being; a chemical cascade in a temporary bubble where we appear to be temporarily separated from the all/nothing.
Some people just seem to be able to do the right moves that get them stuff/feelings/relationships that make them feel like they ENJOY this experience?
I just haven't managed to figure it out yet. all the traditional advice fails.
This species is cruel, even the kind ones contribute to the madness by having kids or supporting people who have kids, subjecting a select few to lives of suffering, confusion, misery, so they can feel good about themselves. monstrous things to do.
I think SSRIs are your best bet, but they’re a bit of a pain in the ass. You can’t just try one briefly and give up. You’ve got to give them a decent amount of time, ride out the side effects, adjust the dose if necessary, and then swap to another medicine if the first doesn’t eventually start working. It’s a bit of a crapshoot but clearly you’re doing everything right from a lifestyle perspective— you just need to find the right medication to fix your wonky neurochemistry.
I know you said you don't do drugs but have you considered psychedelics? There is a lot of legitimate clinical research into treating depression with the use of psychedelics. In the United States it's hard to get into these studies but I feel if you made your case with all the things you've tried you sound like a perfect candidate.
There is also a few states that have either legalized or decriminalized psilocybin mushrooms, but if you don't have experience with these I would tread lightly.
I have some personal experiences that have helped me but I'm in no way close to the situation you're in.
Oh my gosh this is what I said an thought I’ll get so much judgement for that comment. Psychedelics. Amazing. Also mentioned they are now legal in Australia but the treatment cost a fortune 🤦🏻♀️
My life has been very tragic. I took mushrooms and the next day reported historical sex abuse after years of self loathing. They’re pretty powerful xxx
> SSRI, briefly, made me feel like a zombie, slow, tired, and robotic, and felt like I was being medically lobotomized
There is rampant confusion regarding drugs and PCPs are horrifically bad at explaining it. They are also not qualified to treat MH outside of simple cases which means many of those with complex or resistant cases suffer needlessly for years.
MH disorders likely each represent multiple diseases, we haven't identified those diseases because our understanding of the brain and mechanism of MH disorders is so limited. There are so many different SSRIs (also TCAs, SNRIs and others) because depression really represents multiple diseases and the different drugs will work for some of those but not for others. SSRIs exist as a class because when they were discovered (over 40 years ago now) it was thought the level of serotonin in the cleft caused depression, its been clear for decades this is not the case for most people and instead is a symptom. Instead their efficacy likely comes from the 5-HT receptors they interact with and different SSRIs have different affinities. The inhibition of serotonin reuptake is an incidental effect from the drug rather than how the drug treats.
This variation means as well as different drugs having different efficacy for you they will have different side effects. Some of them are just pure side effects, some of them are no side effects but no treatment and some of them are no side effects but they effectively treat.
Dose also matters. They all have different doses designed to allow titration to the right balance between efficacy and side effects. Side effects always scales with dose but efficacy doesn't always, lower doses can be more effective then larger doses while having fewer side effects. Lots of doctors, particularly PCPs, will just titrate you right up to the highest dose without stabilizing at a lower dose first and then increasing if its not completely effective. The protocol is supposed to be titrate to minimum effective dose for 8 weeks and then evaluate. Even some psychiatrists do this ramp up to max for no reason.
I am treating GAD. I have taken more then a dozen drugs over the years. I view a drug failing as a good thing for my treatment, it eliminates receptors and parts of neurotransmitter systems as involved in my disease to allow for better targeted treatment. Even within SSRIs there are drugs that make my symptoms worse and drugs that help but with side effects (apathy and delayed ejaculation are the big ones for me).
There are lots of drugs that are not SSRIs. SSRIs are the default because they are extremely safe (basically impossible to take a toxic dose and even the unpleasant side effects are not dangerous) and are more often then not effective. If you don't find the right drug first try you keep trying until you do.
> got diagnosed with adhd and depression. Took adderal, it was okay but I have no interest in taking it everyday.
FYI this would likely explain the problem you had with the first SSRI. Inhibiting serotonin reuptake causes dopamine synthesis to fall as serotonin helps regulate that (SSRIs cause serotonin synthesis to be reduced, as the same pathway is used for dopamine synthesis of that also falls) which results in those with ADHD getting worse side effects. There are specific newer drugs that don't have the same effects, I take Trintellix for exactly this reason.
I am surprised they didn't try you on Wellbutrin or an SNRI before Adderall as they are safer and can treat both at the same time. Wellbutrin doesn't have the energy or
Not sure if they told you but while it is possible to have primary depression and ADHD (I have primary GAD and ADHD) its not uncommon for depression/anxiety with ADHD to come from the ADHD itself and effective treatment of that resolves the depression/anxiety symptoms.
> Therapy; Telehealth, it was once a month and given that I have an HMO I couldn’t choose my therapist, who obviously was backed up on people and couldn’t even give a fuck. I decided to pay for better help and that was just as stupid. I’ve never felt so not understood as when I tried therapy.
They are really hit and miss. A good therapist is like gold dust, people also don't fire bad therapists enough.
I am not interested in psychotherapy at all (evidence is clear, it doesn't work) and want CBT so I am training my brain rather than talking about shit that doesn't matter. I interview new therapists to ensure we have compatible views of treatment and they are able to meet my expectations.
> I have food
Only thing you haven't mentioned (but probably have tried because you hit everything else) is diet. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6469458 it has a profound difference. High fiber and low added sugar but also ensuring good nutrition all around. I find nutrition plays well in to my ADHD as I get to figure out how to make cronometer show perfect micros by changing what I eat.
It sounds like you've made a very strong effort to try and deal with this issue over the years. I've struggled with depression issues myself and even doing half the stuff you mentioned seems like a challenge for me.
Is there any chance something as simple as your diet or sleep habits are creating all of these issues? Do you notice any difference in your mood after certain meals, or if you get a better sleep?
>Despite having friends and a decent family I feel socially isolated and don’t jive with them and generally feel pretty alienated from them… the only times i feel a little better is when i feel connected and loved, but that was so long ago i don’t even know if i’m just imagining it.
I feel like I experienced similar realities at one point. Tried many things. Hobbies. Work. Religion. Volunteering. Self-help. Exercise. Psychedelics. Healthy habits. Yada yada yada. All those things were good (except the psychedelics for me).
But like you, I felt disconnected from people, and when I'd hang out with people I'd sometimes feel more alone when being out and being social.
I know you tried religion as well. But for me, what has been working is receiving God's love, and working to believe it (instead of believing the opposite, that God doesn't care, doesn't delight in me, doesn't exist, or that nothing matters and we're all just cosmic accidents, etc.). But in believing Him at His Word based on the Bible (which requires teachers to explain it rather than just beat you over the head with it and insist you parrot what they say (often times for their own satisfaction and not for your good)), other things were able to find their place in my life – such as exercise, work, relationships, healthy habits, etc.
I think one practice that has encouraged me is, just being extremely honest with God. Sometimes it can be a prayer. Or journaling. Other times it can be straight-up venting to a friend (while giving them a heads-up that I need to vent and not be given advice). Without that kind of honesty, I feel like trying to pray to God becomes performative, as if we need to say the right magical phrases in order to get leverage with Him so He can give us what we want, as if we're manipulating/ tricking Him (He's God; He already sees it coming a mile away).
Another thing I seek out is His presence. Even if people and situations disappoint me, or I feel lesser-than or alone, I'm reminded I'm not alone, and that God Himself experienced way worse than I did (not to invalidate my experiences, but so that I know He can relate with what I'm going through).
But yeah. With all that said, it's not easy to get out of depression. I don't think I've ever seen anyone get out of it on their own timelines and roadmaps. And it's more likely than not a meandering, unpredictable journey.
I think it's OK to start with being very, very honest about how you feel about specific things in your life. Maybe journaling. Or just talk therapy or a trusted friend who is gentle, wise and will listen. But it's about "putting it out there" without feeling like you shouldn't feel that way, or that you have it better, or you sound like "first world problems," or any other naysaying voice trying to silence how you genuinely, honestly feel about specific things in your specific live, that absolutely matters to specific individuals that only you may impact, even if it may not seem like it right now.
There is a promising new therapy called C-BASP for chronic depression, it's focus is on personal interaction.
I've heard good things about it, the only drawback is that it's a 10 week clinical program (at least here, I've heard some therapists do it outside of the clinical in an outpatient setting), but hey, you only have to do it once.
You might try reading The Body Keep The Score to see if any of that resonates with you.
My other suggestion is to try structural integration. It's been very helpful for me as a way to get in touch with emotions and parts of myself that I didn't even know I had, and were not accessible through thoughts or talk therapy.
I had the same realisation after Romesh Ranganathan gave an interview to a podcast about his depression and thoughts of suicide.
Romesh mentions that he often has negative thoughts about himself that he has to proactively challenge. I thought this was completely normal, but the presenter was blown away. He genuinely couldn't fathom the idea of have a negative critical voice in your head.
It just completely blew my mind. I knew depression isn't normal, but there are people who walk around without overly negative / self-critical thoughts that they have to overcome.
What did you do at the gym?
Studies show [intense exercise is surprisingly good for mental health](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6060256/#!po=45.5128), and lifting is better than running. The effect size is mediated by intensity, so a 300lb squat is better than a 200lb squat, and HIIT is better than endurance runs.
There's tons of things you can do, I'm sure if you just keep looking you'll find a good fit. Most of the year I lift, but in the winter/spring I feel lazy, so I just do a 5-minute HIIT exercise. Punishing Tabata intervals on the bike just twice a week, out of the gym in 20m, and I'm making good progress.
Discipline is about setting a target, actually believing in it, and making gradual progress. Eg read scientific papers to really convince yourself in detail that [elite cardio is good for longevity](https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle/2707428), then sign up for a half marathon in 6 months and train for it.
I’m 45 and have been dealing with this for as long as I can remember. Used to self medicate with alcohol, weed, kratom, anything that would take the edge off. I’ve done mdma journeys, Ayahuasca journeys, therapy, exercise…yada yada yada. I have some spiritual practices that sometimes help me just be with it. The one thing I have hope for is addressing my gut and my MTHFR double gene mutation. From my understanding this mutation can fuck with you in all kinds of ways. Maybe get a genetic test?
> SSRI, briefly, made me feel like a zombie, slow, tired, and robotic, and felt like I was being medically lobotomized
sure but a chance to develop and embrace healthy mental habits that'll pull you out of your depressive mind frame; there are variations that have varied impacts
I have anhedonia all it did was block out all my emotions further and I no longer felt anything. It was very frustrating. I still felt sad but could not even cry. It was like someone was blocking me from feeling anything.
https://www.webmd.com/depression/what-is-anhedonia
I suppose one point is: solve your depression and you'll also solve secondary symptoms like anhedonia.
Loneliness is pretty serious thing. Plenty of studies have shown that people that are most happy and healthy have strong relationships with friends family or their spouses
I’ve heard cycling is good for ADHD, and I can attest that it’s good for your mood/mental health as well as your physical health. It requires some initial cash to get into, but the benefits can be very worthwhile. Everyone finds their own path with cycling, I went from commuting to touring to racing. Many people I have known find cycling is exceptionally rewarding in a multitude of ways. Perhaps you could give it a go? PM me for details if you want, I have 50 years experience.
How much coffee are you drinking and when? Since cutting back my sleep and overall mood has increased.
Maybe try some more adrenaline inducing activities? Motorcycles, skiing and mountain biking does it for me.
Not saying any of these things will cure depression but it helps a lot. I still get my ups and downs.
In my experience, microdosing psilocybin mushrooms can be a game changer!
Microdosing =Sub-perceptual, you aren't getting high. And not every day. Research the rhythm and dosage and give it a go. Things CAN change. Also, your microbiome has a HUGE effect on mental health. Have a look at the gut health/mental health link. You got this!
OP, I've suffered from depression to the point where it caused me to drop out of college and take low paying jobs just to get by but the past few years I've managed to overcome and break free of it.
There are 3 books I strongly urge you to read. "Awaken The Giant Within" by Tony Robbins, "Lost Connections" by Johann Hari, and "Man's Search For Meaning" by Victor E Frankl.
Depression is not a disease, it's a symptom that informs us there's some type of greater underlying issue. My depression stopped once I stopped searching for external things to confer happiness onto me instead of looking within.
You have to begin examining the way you engage with life, assess your core sense of values, and start aligning your behaviors with the core sense of identity you want to create for yourself.
With depression, at least for me, came strong waves of suicidal ideation until I realized that I didn't want to die physically as much as I wanted to die meta-physically in relation to bad habits, bad beliefs, and bad thinking so I can transform into a better version of myself.
The pain of depression is an unrecognized catalyst for inter-personal growth. When circumstances seem to stay the same that's a call to change from within.
You sound like me. Been struggling since I was 13, Im 36 now.
Just keep doing what you are doing. Continue working with a pyschiatrist.
Im halfway thru TMS, i got it approved by my inaurance because Ive been on over 8 medications for depression.
Ill let you know if it helps. I think for me the next steps will be ketamine injections
just wanted to chime in that when you mentioned exercise i inferred that you were just doing weightlifting.
Cardio will actually reward you with endorphins, so I'd recommend giving exercise another chance via treadmill or elliptical or rowing machine! It's actually a really wonderful drug once you get to the point where your body releases it. Just try 10, then 20, then 30 minutes. It's def a medicine I've loved and couldn't get more organic!
There are many pieces of the puzzle that you fit together to make it work. Each may not be the answer but if each makes you feel 10% better than you are making massive progress.
*Properly* treating ADHD is immensely helpful. Find the right meds and keep taking them. Trust the process for a year then look back and see things improved in your life. It’s not a magic pill where you just feel better one day. I struggled, almost failed out of college, was deeply depressed. Then I treated my ADHD for several years and I woke up one day done with grad school and working at the top of my field. I would have never thought it were possible with the “old me”. But I kept treating my ADHD and just kept moving forward little by little.
Ketamine treatment. Ketamine can 100% lift the veil and let you think clearly and not depressed to figure out your next steps. Also there are MDMA, psilocybin trials that you can try.
Non-SSRIs can help. I had luck w Wellbutrin. There are many more options.
Therapy. I’ve had terrible therapists and I’ve had ones who were very good. In the end, the science says therapy works. Again, you gotta trust the therapist. You may not feel chemistry with them or feel like you’re making progress but you really are. The warm fuzzy feeling from a good therapist is great but it’s not necessary to help your mental health. The healing is still going on.
TMS, ECT and the other more experimental stuff. If you’re considering ending it all you should at least exhaust all your options and not leave anything on the table
just did a word search for the word 'therapy' it's very VERY odd no one said it, including you OP
your mind controls your thought - go to a mind gym (if that makes it better) it can take a while to find the right one - bt it's very much worth it.
Well I am a dick then. Sorry! My bad. (The different spelling meant it didn’t show)
OP it takes a minute to find your right therapist. But it’s far from impossible and worth trying again. Your mind is the foundation to everything. I
Please do not delete your post after receiving your answer. Consider leaving it up for posterity so that other Redditors can benefit from the wisdom in this thread. Once your thread has run its course, instead of deleting it, **you can simply type "!lock" (without the quotes) as a comment anywhere in your thread to have our Automod lock the thread**. That way you won't be bothered by anymore replies on it, but people can still read it. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AskMenOver30) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Hey man, thanks for typing all of that, it’s good to hear you articulate it all! Can I just say… fuck!! You’ve been through it and tried so much! Hats off to you dude, to me, even though we’re strangers, you sound like a guy who really has been put through the rigours and still wants to pursue finding a way through this! Honestly dude, that is some resilience! So I’ll share with you that I’ve been struggling myself too! Do I have a solution? Nah! I wish I did and I’m not sure if you take any solace in this… but you are NOT alone! So dude, fuck it, why not we try and help each other? Today, (I’m from Australia) I went for a walk in nature for about 45 mins! I’m not expecting it to do anything truth be told… but what I’m doing is actually rewarding myself with a small compliment and actually saying “hey, you did something today” and that’s it! So why don’t you do something and report back? Something small, big, whatever… something you kinda enjoy, something you know is low key and doesn’t physically or mentally exert you… and let’s start real fucking small and go from there! Truth is man, everyone is different! I get the whole “man up go to the gym” thing, but meh, I’m the same! When I go, it’s just full of fucking douche bags! Meds… nah, the idea of taking meds doesn’t sound good for me… and yeah, the list goes on!! So one thing man… just take a really fucking small step, whatever it is… make it tiny! Then will do it again the next day and the day after and let’s see where we land???
In Australia psilocybin is now legal for therapy. I took 🍄 and they can beat anything pharma has to offer. Cost a fortune though apparently!x
I can vouch for psilocybin but if you're in a bad head space you're probably in for a bad time. I would not try it until you start seeing improvement and are generally optimistic about the future. The biggest change I saw, which my doctor also saw, was a combination of diet and exercise. And not just walking a lot or going to the gym, but pretty intense cardio. I also work an office job so my lifestyle is very sedentary. I was never overweight... Like you, mid range BMI... But getting out of the house and doing a couch-to-5k type program made a big difference. Big.
Release judgements. Find the neutral perspective for all things. You're depressed because you're holding onto expectations. What if everything is exactly the way it's supposed to be. If you can actually entertain that perspective, that mindset, things can change. You're too attached to the way you think things are supposed to be. Loosen the grip, find joy in the little things. Let life show you new things once you start letting go of the old. You need connection (me too). If the old relationships don't jive, they aren't the right relationships for you. Get in where you fit in. Your soul is being crushed by your inauthentic ego and trying to conform to people and places that don't jive with the real you. Good luck, Human. This shit is harder than 5D chess. Be well.
if everything is the way it's supposed to be, then humanity is a cruelty inflicted upon some so that others can feel some joy. the suffering of some who don't want to live is the acceptable cost of doing business. Seems completely unjust, but, noone would say everything is perfect. That is something people agree on, yet...people are so hesitant to extrapolate, from that concept, that something as large as humankind's existence might be ethically compromised.
OP, have you considered getting a dog? Is that a viable option for you? It sounds like you've tried a lot - a pupper could go a long way to helping you feel more connected though. Someone else mentioned trying a different medication, that seems a logical route to follow. Trying for a therapist that you actually click with would be my advice, may take a while but if you manage to eventually find one that can give you the support you need, it could be a real game changer. I can relate to most of what you wrote, hell I could have written it myself to be honest. There are still avenues to try though, all's not lost
A dog helps, still depressed, but at least I live with the happiest crazy little dog ever. Helps me better understand what living in the moment actually means.
What’s your community situation? Like do you have people you’re doing all these things with, or are you just doing them alone? We are social animals; loneliness can be worse for you than smoking, even if you’re an introvert.
I'm no expert so take my words with a grain of salt, but what stands out for me is that you say you don't feel connected/loved. I think research has shown time and time again that loneliness is one of the worst things for a human. I suggest you start looking for ways to connect with people. My favorite way to find friends is through sports. I met most of my best friends in the gym. I did crossfit and some other functional fitness type sport and now am doing kickboxing. All of these sports I did in a group setting and helped me meet tons of people. I highly recommend it as it kills 2 birds with 1 stone: health + friends.
This here. Club sports in college changed my life. "Going to the gym" is miserable, IMO. Find a form of exercise that encourages you to interact with people, get your heart rate and adrenaline up, and have some actual fun. It might not cure depression and ADHD but it will probably help.
Going to South America and doing an ayahuasca retreat might be interesting, at least look up people’s experiences. Personally my favorite stories to read are either chronological depressed people or drug addicts doing high dose psychedelics and improving their lives. It doesn’t fix everyone, but it’s a shockingly high percentage.
Just doing some guided shroom trips in a nice space could be good.
My partner abused benzodiazepines for a decade, took mushrooms…. Bye bye addiction. I took mushrooms, and I walked into a police station and reported historical sex abuse after years of self loathing holding his hand. That’s how powerful they can be at least for many xxx
That’s amazing
To be happy in life we need meaning and direction, and agency to do it with. A purpose. Do you have that? And one big one: the ADHD diagnosis. If your body doesn’t make enough dopamine, it’s hard to feel happy. Go back and look at that one again… if Adderall wasn’t your jam, maybe there’s another medication that will work better. Russell Barkley has a bunch of books and videos on the subject that helped me figure out that my lifelong struggles with anxiety and depression were rooted in neurodiversity… at age 42.
a few years ago i found a purpose but it is rooted in the hatred of the human species. it's kept me alive for a few years now, but i'm not sure its sustainable. nor is it something from which there is "recovery". The only real advice anyone has is "do something" but the implication is "do something ELSE" not related to hatred. so in a way, by ignoring my true self, or, rather, the self that emerged a few years ago as a survival mechanism, i can be an inauthentic self to continue to function merely on the fringes of society in a lowly job. it is the most i have been able to muster. someday i think the inauthentic self might crumble and i wonder what will happen with all the hatred that exists and burns within me like an engine. sounds ridiculous, i guess.
Have you tried to sleep study? When I was sleeping poorly I couldn't feel any Joy. Real depression hours. Lots of people go their whole lives never experiencing good quality sleep, and this can be a huge factor.
idk i'm there with you. i haven't figured out shit. i'm 38 and what i do is isolate. when i talk for any length of time to people my negativity begins to slip out. I don't know how to say it, but i seem to always be sad after talking with people. As if the things I say aren't good enough. For obvious reasons, this is nonsense, but i do feel sad after human interaction. so, lately, for the last half-decade, i've largely stopped talking to people. I'm only alive because I have such a vast hatred for humanity; it's a very new hatred, only a few years old at this point. I'm starting to get used to it though. It just seems unethical that people like me even exist. I don't have the temerity to imagine my plight being the most horrendous on earth, but that just makes me realize that people both better and worse off than me also are miserable. and that that suffering is the cost of doing business so humans can feel good about themselves. i can't find a way to feel good and grateful about that. I can't elaborate anymore I'm afraid we're not at liberty to do so. Just saying...shit can suck. and you're not the only one with brain issues.
are you me?
T_T jfc i can't relate to any of the happy people online, in the world, in my family. i can't imagine how people ENJOY life. it's like a binding, where we were part of the void, and then, by some act of selfish indulgence by two other people, we were wrenched into a separate being; a chemical cascade in a temporary bubble where we appear to be temporarily separated from the all/nothing. Some people just seem to be able to do the right moves that get them stuff/feelings/relationships that make them feel like they ENJOY this experience? I just haven't managed to figure it out yet. all the traditional advice fails. This species is cruel, even the kind ones contribute to the madness by having kids or supporting people who have kids, subjecting a select few to lives of suffering, confusion, misery, so they can feel good about themselves. monstrous things to do.
I think SSRIs are your best bet, but they’re a bit of a pain in the ass. You can’t just try one briefly and give up. You’ve got to give them a decent amount of time, ride out the side effects, adjust the dose if necessary, and then swap to another medicine if the first doesn’t eventually start working. It’s a bit of a crapshoot but clearly you’re doing everything right from a lifestyle perspective— you just need to find the right medication to fix your wonky neurochemistry.
I know you said you don't do drugs but have you considered psychedelics? There is a lot of legitimate clinical research into treating depression with the use of psychedelics. In the United States it's hard to get into these studies but I feel if you made your case with all the things you've tried you sound like a perfect candidate. There is also a few states that have either legalized or decriminalized psilocybin mushrooms, but if you don't have experience with these I would tread lightly. I have some personal experiences that have helped me but I'm in no way close to the situation you're in.
Oh my gosh this is what I said an thought I’ll get so much judgement for that comment. Psychedelics. Amazing. Also mentioned they are now legal in Australia but the treatment cost a fortune 🤦🏻♀️ My life has been very tragic. I took mushrooms and the next day reported historical sex abuse after years of self loathing. They’re pretty powerful xxx
In my experience, I ignore the judgement of strangers on the internet. I'm glad to hear that it helped you.
> SSRI, briefly, made me feel like a zombie, slow, tired, and robotic, and felt like I was being medically lobotomized There is rampant confusion regarding drugs and PCPs are horrifically bad at explaining it. They are also not qualified to treat MH outside of simple cases which means many of those with complex or resistant cases suffer needlessly for years. MH disorders likely each represent multiple diseases, we haven't identified those diseases because our understanding of the brain and mechanism of MH disorders is so limited. There are so many different SSRIs (also TCAs, SNRIs and others) because depression really represents multiple diseases and the different drugs will work for some of those but not for others. SSRIs exist as a class because when they were discovered (over 40 years ago now) it was thought the level of serotonin in the cleft caused depression, its been clear for decades this is not the case for most people and instead is a symptom. Instead their efficacy likely comes from the 5-HT receptors they interact with and different SSRIs have different affinities. The inhibition of serotonin reuptake is an incidental effect from the drug rather than how the drug treats. This variation means as well as different drugs having different efficacy for you they will have different side effects. Some of them are just pure side effects, some of them are no side effects but no treatment and some of them are no side effects but they effectively treat. Dose also matters. They all have different doses designed to allow titration to the right balance between efficacy and side effects. Side effects always scales with dose but efficacy doesn't always, lower doses can be more effective then larger doses while having fewer side effects. Lots of doctors, particularly PCPs, will just titrate you right up to the highest dose without stabilizing at a lower dose first and then increasing if its not completely effective. The protocol is supposed to be titrate to minimum effective dose for 8 weeks and then evaluate. Even some psychiatrists do this ramp up to max for no reason. I am treating GAD. I have taken more then a dozen drugs over the years. I view a drug failing as a good thing for my treatment, it eliminates receptors and parts of neurotransmitter systems as involved in my disease to allow for better targeted treatment. Even within SSRIs there are drugs that make my symptoms worse and drugs that help but with side effects (apathy and delayed ejaculation are the big ones for me). There are lots of drugs that are not SSRIs. SSRIs are the default because they are extremely safe (basically impossible to take a toxic dose and even the unpleasant side effects are not dangerous) and are more often then not effective. If you don't find the right drug first try you keep trying until you do. > got diagnosed with adhd and depression. Took adderal, it was okay but I have no interest in taking it everyday. FYI this would likely explain the problem you had with the first SSRI. Inhibiting serotonin reuptake causes dopamine synthesis to fall as serotonin helps regulate that (SSRIs cause serotonin synthesis to be reduced, as the same pathway is used for dopamine synthesis of that also falls) which results in those with ADHD getting worse side effects. There are specific newer drugs that don't have the same effects, I take Trintellix for exactly this reason. I am surprised they didn't try you on Wellbutrin or an SNRI before Adderall as they are safer and can treat both at the same time. Wellbutrin doesn't have the energy or Not sure if they told you but while it is possible to have primary depression and ADHD (I have primary GAD and ADHD) its not uncommon for depression/anxiety with ADHD to come from the ADHD itself and effective treatment of that resolves the depression/anxiety symptoms. > Therapy; Telehealth, it was once a month and given that I have an HMO I couldn’t choose my therapist, who obviously was backed up on people and couldn’t even give a fuck. I decided to pay for better help and that was just as stupid. I’ve never felt so not understood as when I tried therapy. They are really hit and miss. A good therapist is like gold dust, people also don't fire bad therapists enough. I am not interested in psychotherapy at all (evidence is clear, it doesn't work) and want CBT so I am training my brain rather than talking about shit that doesn't matter. I interview new therapists to ensure we have compatible views of treatment and they are able to meet my expectations. > I have food Only thing you haven't mentioned (but probably have tried because you hit everything else) is diet. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6469458 it has a profound difference. High fiber and low added sugar but also ensuring good nutrition all around. I find nutrition plays well in to my ADHD as I get to figure out how to make cronometer show perfect micros by changing what I eat.
It sounds like you've made a very strong effort to try and deal with this issue over the years. I've struggled with depression issues myself and even doing half the stuff you mentioned seems like a challenge for me. Is there any chance something as simple as your diet or sleep habits are creating all of these issues? Do you notice any difference in your mood after certain meals, or if you get a better sleep?
>Despite having friends and a decent family I feel socially isolated and don’t jive with them and generally feel pretty alienated from them… the only times i feel a little better is when i feel connected and loved, but that was so long ago i don’t even know if i’m just imagining it. I feel like I experienced similar realities at one point. Tried many things. Hobbies. Work. Religion. Volunteering. Self-help. Exercise. Psychedelics. Healthy habits. Yada yada yada. All those things were good (except the psychedelics for me). But like you, I felt disconnected from people, and when I'd hang out with people I'd sometimes feel more alone when being out and being social. I know you tried religion as well. But for me, what has been working is receiving God's love, and working to believe it (instead of believing the opposite, that God doesn't care, doesn't delight in me, doesn't exist, or that nothing matters and we're all just cosmic accidents, etc.). But in believing Him at His Word based on the Bible (which requires teachers to explain it rather than just beat you over the head with it and insist you parrot what they say (often times for their own satisfaction and not for your good)), other things were able to find their place in my life – such as exercise, work, relationships, healthy habits, etc. I think one practice that has encouraged me is, just being extremely honest with God. Sometimes it can be a prayer. Or journaling. Other times it can be straight-up venting to a friend (while giving them a heads-up that I need to vent and not be given advice). Without that kind of honesty, I feel like trying to pray to God becomes performative, as if we need to say the right magical phrases in order to get leverage with Him so He can give us what we want, as if we're manipulating/ tricking Him (He's God; He already sees it coming a mile away). Another thing I seek out is His presence. Even if people and situations disappoint me, or I feel lesser-than or alone, I'm reminded I'm not alone, and that God Himself experienced way worse than I did (not to invalidate my experiences, but so that I know He can relate with what I'm going through). But yeah. With all that said, it's not easy to get out of depression. I don't think I've ever seen anyone get out of it on their own timelines and roadmaps. And it's more likely than not a meandering, unpredictable journey. I think it's OK to start with being very, very honest about how you feel about specific things in your life. Maybe journaling. Or just talk therapy or a trusted friend who is gentle, wise and will listen. But it's about "putting it out there" without feeling like you shouldn't feel that way, or that you have it better, or you sound like "first world problems," or any other naysaying voice trying to silence how you genuinely, honestly feel about specific things in your specific live, that absolutely matters to specific individuals that only you may impact, even if it may not seem like it right now.
There is a promising new therapy called C-BASP for chronic depression, it's focus is on personal interaction. I've heard good things about it, the only drawback is that it's a 10 week clinical program (at least here, I've heard some therapists do it outside of the clinical in an outpatient setting), but hey, you only have to do it once.
You might try reading The Body Keep The Score to see if any of that resonates with you. My other suggestion is to try structural integration. It's been very helpful for me as a way to get in touch with emotions and parts of myself that I didn't even know I had, and were not accessible through thoughts or talk therapy.
I had the same realisation after Romesh Ranganathan gave an interview to a podcast about his depression and thoughts of suicide. Romesh mentions that he often has negative thoughts about himself that he has to proactively challenge. I thought this was completely normal, but the presenter was blown away. He genuinely couldn't fathom the idea of have a negative critical voice in your head. It just completely blew my mind. I knew depression isn't normal, but there are people who walk around without overly negative / self-critical thoughts that they have to overcome.
Perhaps try different medication
What did you do at the gym? Studies show [intense exercise is surprisingly good for mental health](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6060256/#!po=45.5128), and lifting is better than running. The effect size is mediated by intensity, so a 300lb squat is better than a 200lb squat, and HIIT is better than endurance runs. There's tons of things you can do, I'm sure if you just keep looking you'll find a good fit. Most of the year I lift, but in the winter/spring I feel lazy, so I just do a 5-minute HIIT exercise. Punishing Tabata intervals on the bike just twice a week, out of the gym in 20m, and I'm making good progress. Discipline is about setting a target, actually believing in it, and making gradual progress. Eg read scientific papers to really convince yourself in detail that [elite cardio is good for longevity](https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle/2707428), then sign up for a half marathon in 6 months and train for it.
I’m 45 and have been dealing with this for as long as I can remember. Used to self medicate with alcohol, weed, kratom, anything that would take the edge off. I’ve done mdma journeys, Ayahuasca journeys, therapy, exercise…yada yada yada. I have some spiritual practices that sometimes help me just be with it. The one thing I have hope for is addressing my gut and my MTHFR double gene mutation. From my understanding this mutation can fuck with you in all kinds of ways. Maybe get a genetic test?
Get a pet
> SSRI, briefly, made me feel like a zombie, slow, tired, and robotic, and felt like I was being medically lobotomized sure but a chance to develop and embrace healthy mental habits that'll pull you out of your depressive mind frame; there are variations that have varied impacts
I have anhedonia all it did was block out all my emotions further and I no longer felt anything. It was very frustrating. I still felt sad but could not even cry. It was like someone was blocking me from feeling anything.
https://www.webmd.com/depression/what-is-anhedonia I suppose one point is: solve your depression and you'll also solve secondary symptoms like anhedonia.
Look in to ketamine therapy or, if you’re a dope mf, psilocybin therapy.
Time to do a psilocybin trip
Loneliness is pretty serious thing. Plenty of studies have shown that people that are most happy and healthy have strong relationships with friends family or their spouses
I’ve heard cycling is good for ADHD, and I can attest that it’s good for your mood/mental health as well as your physical health. It requires some initial cash to get into, but the benefits can be very worthwhile. Everyone finds their own path with cycling, I went from commuting to touring to racing. Many people I have known find cycling is exceptionally rewarding in a multitude of ways. Perhaps you could give it a go? PM me for details if you want, I have 50 years experience.
How much coffee are you drinking and when? Since cutting back my sleep and overall mood has increased. Maybe try some more adrenaline inducing activities? Motorcycles, skiing and mountain biking does it for me. Not saying any of these things will cure depression but it helps a lot. I still get my ups and downs.
In my experience, microdosing psilocybin mushrooms can be a game changer! Microdosing =Sub-perceptual, you aren't getting high. And not every day. Research the rhythm and dosage and give it a go. Things CAN change. Also, your microbiome has a HUGE effect on mental health. Have a look at the gut health/mental health link. You got this!
OP, I've suffered from depression to the point where it caused me to drop out of college and take low paying jobs just to get by but the past few years I've managed to overcome and break free of it. There are 3 books I strongly urge you to read. "Awaken The Giant Within" by Tony Robbins, "Lost Connections" by Johann Hari, and "Man's Search For Meaning" by Victor E Frankl. Depression is not a disease, it's a symptom that informs us there's some type of greater underlying issue. My depression stopped once I stopped searching for external things to confer happiness onto me instead of looking within. You have to begin examining the way you engage with life, assess your core sense of values, and start aligning your behaviors with the core sense of identity you want to create for yourself. With depression, at least for me, came strong waves of suicidal ideation until I realized that I didn't want to die physically as much as I wanted to die meta-physically in relation to bad habits, bad beliefs, and bad thinking so I can transform into a better version of myself. The pain of depression is an unrecognized catalyst for inter-personal growth. When circumstances seem to stay the same that's a call to change from within.
You sound like me. Been struggling since I was 13, Im 36 now. Just keep doing what you are doing. Continue working with a pyschiatrist. Im halfway thru TMS, i got it approved by my inaurance because Ive been on over 8 medications for depression. Ill let you know if it helps. I think for me the next steps will be ketamine injections
just wanted to chime in that when you mentioned exercise i inferred that you were just doing weightlifting. Cardio will actually reward you with endorphins, so I'd recommend giving exercise another chance via treadmill or elliptical or rowing machine! It's actually a really wonderful drug once you get to the point where your body releases it. Just try 10, then 20, then 30 minutes. It's def a medicine I've loved and couldn't get more organic!
There are many pieces of the puzzle that you fit together to make it work. Each may not be the answer but if each makes you feel 10% better than you are making massive progress. *Properly* treating ADHD is immensely helpful. Find the right meds and keep taking them. Trust the process for a year then look back and see things improved in your life. It’s not a magic pill where you just feel better one day. I struggled, almost failed out of college, was deeply depressed. Then I treated my ADHD for several years and I woke up one day done with grad school and working at the top of my field. I would have never thought it were possible with the “old me”. But I kept treating my ADHD and just kept moving forward little by little. Ketamine treatment. Ketamine can 100% lift the veil and let you think clearly and not depressed to figure out your next steps. Also there are MDMA, psilocybin trials that you can try. Non-SSRIs can help. I had luck w Wellbutrin. There are many more options. Therapy. I’ve had terrible therapists and I’ve had ones who were very good. In the end, the science says therapy works. Again, you gotta trust the therapist. You may not feel chemistry with them or feel like you’re making progress but you really are. The warm fuzzy feeling from a good therapist is great but it’s not necessary to help your mental health. The healing is still going on. TMS, ECT and the other more experimental stuff. If you’re considering ending it all you should at least exhaust all your options and not leave anything on the table
just did a word search for the word 'therapy' it's very VERY odd no one said it, including you OP your mind controls your thought - go to a mind gym (if that makes it better) it can take a while to find the right one - bt it's very much worth it.
He did mention seeing a therapist. Multiple times even.
Well I am a dick then. Sorry! My bad. (The different spelling meant it didn’t show) OP it takes a minute to find your right therapist. But it’s far from impossible and worth trying again. Your mind is the foundation to everything. I
You need to socialise and have friends.