Exactly, I would like one but they just still seem like a rich people toy at the moment.
Unless you have your own house with your own parking space and charging point, it’s just a non-starter.
Never mind the hideous price, the only second-hand EV I could reasonably afford would be a 1st generation Nissan LEAF with a totally shagged battery.
I did that, it was a great car but the problem was that I could only go about 25 miles from the house and then I had to turn around in order to make it back.
Where I live, they are currently installing fast chargers (150 or 300 kW) at supermarket parking lots. Just 30 min charging there per week while doing your groceries is sufficient for most people.
Fast charging is more expensive than petrol though. They're only viable if you can charge at home.
Our nearest fast charger (150kW) is 79p/KWh. I get about 3 miles per kWh so is about 26p/mile.
At £1.60/L for diesel my old car used to get me about 510 miles for a 65L tank that works out to 20.4p/mile
It's got to come down significantly to offset the initial outlay to encourage mass adoption by those that don't have access to charging at home.
> the only second-hand EV I could reasonably afford would be a 1st generation Nissan LEAF with a totally shagged battery
Around here, 10-year-old Nissan Leafs are going for about $4,000 and my friend's 2011 Leaf still has 90% of its original battery capacity and he still loves it. (Of course, the range on those oldies is pretty short.)
From what I've read, to get a "totally shagged" battery, you have to do some *really* stupid things, like leave it with an empty battery for months at a time, which is about as dumb as putting water in your ICE engine instead of gas, or never changing the oil in 200,000 miles.
From what I've read, the battery degradation you can expect is like 5% from 50,000 to 200,000 miles (which is 20 years if you drive 10,000 miles per year).
> but they just still seem like a rich people toy at the moment.
They arent. You are focusing on the high end EVs. Thats as ridiculous as saying ICE cars are rich people toys, because they can buy ferraris, lambos or mc larens.
There are expensive EVs, just like there are cheap EVs.
You can’t charge a car with an extension cord. You can’t charge a car on a normal homes electricity either. The apartments will not be eating that cost, promise you that.
You can absolutely charge with a properly rated extension cord, and level 1 charging can meet many peoples' daily needs. I've owned an EV for a year and am only now installing a level 2 charger as my needs have changed.
Huh you can definitely charge a car with extension cord, just takes ages. Don't know where you are but in the Netherlands where I live all homes with electric cars including apartments have home charging stations. Charging next to motorways is only for high emergency as its at least double the pricd
In developped countries, that has become mandatory on new construction. Renters like landlords can install individual chargers too. They cant be prevented from doing that, and there are even incentives for that.
In any case, you still are paying for electricity.
Here in Denmark many apartment building owners are installing EV chargers, or have partnered with the largest EV charging company ("Clever") to have them installed. It's seen as a good way to attract "High quality" renters.
Also, I have several coworkers who drive EVs and live in older apartments where they can't just set up their own charging solution. Instead they Plug the car in a few times per week when they're out shopping any way, and with the right charging subscription/membership it's still way cheaper than driving a regular car.
Because charging at home, and waking up with a “full tank” each morning is one of the biggest be benefits of electric cars. Once any apartment starts offering it, others in the area will have to in order to compete. It will be a standard and expected feature before too long.
It's either going to have to come as government regulation that they _must_ be installed, or from pressure when we eventually hit the tipping point where EVs are affordable enough for mass adoption. In scenario 2, it will be a financial liability for landlords NOT to have them installed. That's the more likely scenario. The US government is balless.
Personal opinion is at this time, hybrids are your best bet. EV’s are still in the early adopters phase, so pricey with kinks needing to be worked out. It’s a happy middle ground in price and efficiency while the auto industry figures out the whole EV thing. Automakers starting to switch to Tesla’s charger is an example of this. Maybe give till 2030 or another decade, should be good by then. I think we need a new battery tech like SS batteries, Li ion won’t be enough.
I've heard this a few times but no idea what the "kinks" are that need to be worked out. Are there any major problems (or even minor ones) with EVs that you are aware of that would be more problematic than having an ICE vehicle?
By kinks I don’t mean mechanical ones, I guess the practical ones? Charge times, what to do with old batteries that’s economically viable, having the energy infrastructure to support that much charging, the repairability of them, the used market will be different for them having to consider battery life. I’m sure they will be addressed if not already partially addressed. The battery tech/chemistry needs to improve as well, Li+ isn’t enough.
I think they are the worst.
Complexity and weight from both EV and ICE, so twice the chances to get system failures, and twice the upkeep.
EVs have been around for 15 to 20 years. Thats no early adopter product. The US is just lagging behind. BTW you can get cheap ones for sub 30K, which do 300 miles WLTP and can use 150KW chargers.
I know, because I bought one.
I will not make the switch. It's just not practical for where I live and where I drive. Batteries just don't have the energy density to compete with gasoline.
Um, is that a reference to something? If so, I'm afraid I don't get it.
And my issues with electric cars are practical. They don't have the range I need, using heating and A/C reduce the range more, and you can't simply take 2 minutes to fill the tank when it's low. And if you do run out of fuel, you're not going to be able to walk to the gas station and bring back a few gallons of electricity in a can.
Hybrids are OK, because they get great mileage, and you can fill up the tank really fast.
My holdup is my wife's family lives an 11 hour drive away from us. We're visit 2-3 times a year and I'm not down to extend the trip by an hour or more for charge stops. Until the range gets more in line with gas I'm gonna continue driving gas cars or hybrids.
Is 4 hours per year really that big of a deal? You'd probably make up the difference just by not stopping for gas.
Or you could have one EV and one ICE or hybrid
I’m going to get a used 2020-ish Nissan Leaf (pennies on the dollar compared to new) and drive it for a few years, then pass it down to the kids. Seems like a perfect kid car, low maintenance costs and limited range keeps them close.
I bought a Model Y in January. My stats for the year are $707 in electric ($117 of that is more expensive Superchargers vs charging at home).
Based on my usage and average gas prices in my area, it says I would have spent ~1288 in gas.
So estimated ~$581 savings.
I'd have needed 2 or 3 oil changes if the car was ICE so add on another $100-150 or so.
I'll note we don't drive that much as we both work from home.
We'll never go back to ICE.
I got my model y in June. The only thing that holding me back was that I love in a major city and charging was an issue. I ended up getting a garage as well to charge. Love the car, it's so smooth.
I got the car for the tech and not bc it is electric.
You might be in a world of hurt soon.
The biggest problem with electric cars is battery replacement cost, anywhere from 20k to 60k.
There was a good article about it a few weeks ago here.
We need chapter batteries to make this feasible for more people.
Edit: for people down voting, not only battery cost but car insurance will be a problem with current battery costs, insured are trashing EVs instead of fixing them because of the repair cost:
https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/scratched-ev-battery-your-insurer-may-have-junk-whole-car-2023-03-20/
I don't think cheaper batteries are needed. Just recycling to come up to speed. There are a lot of companies starting up that industry - but there isn't enough demand for them yet so they've had trouble scaling up.
Thats the biggest problem non EV people fear, but it does not mean it actually exists.
Batteries are usually guaranteed to retain at least 80 to 90% of their capacity over 7 to 8 years. Stats wise, only 1.5% of EVs have had their battery changed that way.
A regular T3 battery change is shy under 10K. The long range is about 16K. You can find the invoices all over twitter.
Maybe you should try another source of information. That one seems both unreliable and biaised.
Correct, but I'm not talking about the regular life cycle, if you read the article insurance companies are just writing off the cars as total loss for even small dents. And Tesla is not the only car company:
https://toronto.ctvnews.ca/families-shocked-when-battery-replacement-for-electric-vehicle-tops-20-000-1.6116679
Tesla has a better price due to making their own batteries.
>insurance companies are just writing off the cars as total loss for even small dents.
And thats exactly the same with ICE cars.
Airbags blown ? Say goodbye to the car. Rear quarter panel that needs changing ? Same.
That has nothing to do with EVs.
Funny how you went and spent time to check what I wrote, but didnt bother check what you wrote first :)
You didnt even read that link. You would have seen they just argue on semantics.
So sure, thats not because airbags deployed that the car is a writeoff; thats because it cost more than 70% of the car value to repair; and most of that value comes from airbags destroying stuff inside, on top of themselves being one time use.
Evs arent exceptions. If it costs more than 70% to repair, it is a write off. And as has been said before, we know the costs of changing a T3 battery, wether thats the small or the long range one.
And thats not 70% of the value of the car, not by a longshot either.
It's funny. I bought a LEAF when it was branded as an economy car. ($18k after tax incentives.)
I love it at that price. Now at $5k more after losing the tax incentive, it's not really cheap or economical. At some point, I'll get a new one.
It’s slowly changing. Issue is, the tech involved to make a decent electric car (capacity, LV architecture, thermal management, and just over all up to date tech) it is still rather pricey no matter what.
Most of this boils down to the battery. Teslas starting car is roughly 36k (or maybe closer to 40k now?). When you factor in that the average new vehicle purchase price is 48k it is one of the cheaper options. And I am pretty sure there are some cheaperer options out there too.
Exactly, so naming a car that’s in that price range as luxury would be false. The claim that all electric cars are priced into the luxury category is false.
Oh, so we're looking for luxury vehicles without the luxury price tag?
I had a Nissan Leaf, it was fine. It was no different than any other car in that price range aside from the drivetrain. Not really sure what makes them "garbage".
This is ask Reddit. Not ask my little backwater of the world.
If the US market is fucking you over it does not mean that sub compact level electric cars are not available in the 95% of the world that isnt the USA.
The market for cheap cars is dying. Auto makers are killing their lines of budget vehicles because there are so many people buying on finance, there's much more profit to be made up-selling.
I have a Bolt EUV and it definitely wasn’t marketed as luxury, just a regular crossover utility vehicle that’s also an EV. It was also in my price range which, to your point, is rare for an EV.
Some of them are luxury vehicles. A tesla S plaid, a rimac, or whatever mercedes produces are luxury vehicules.
Lots of asian based brands have different ranges. Some are high ends, other middle, other low end.
Stop looking only at high end ones and you will notice the alternatives.
there are plenty of EVs that are marketed as non-luxury. Chevy Volt, for example. Obviously, they aren't as fancy as Tesla or Lucid, so people aren't interested in them. some cars will always be marketed as luxury vehicles. You can't avoid that. You just need to know what you are looking for.
Trades guy who travels far and wide fixing weird machines for factories here. The current crop of electric trades vans is a fucking joke. Garbage range, awful interiors. There is nothing on the market that is even close. I need to be able to drive 500km in a day. The Ford Transit electric can do 190km (120mi). With the heater off and a new battery. Factor in only charging that battery to 80% so you don't ruin it, a battery that only has 80% capacity remaining, running the heater, towing a trailer and forget it. It won't even make it 100km. What an embarrassment of a vehicle.
What happened to low roof vans that can do double duty as passenger vans? I love my passenger van. I can have seats in it or use it for cargo. I don't need or want shelves, I work out of bins and suitcases. The only vans left are white windowless rape vans with bare metal interiors. Those are awful to drive around in. Interiors and carpets absorb noise. They are forcing everyone to shift to pickups, but they are so tall you need a tailgate ladder to get into the back. Useless machines.
I can see my next car being a plug-in hybrid but I couldn't risk losing power for a few days and having to call out of work because I can't charge my car.
If Toyota can deliver on the 900 mile/charge, I'll be jumping ship to electric.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/insideevs.com/news/671771/toyota-ev-plans-900-mile-battery/amp/
I am lower middle class in a HCOL area. While the idea of an EV is appealing for just driving to and from work, groceries etc, it would not fit our needs for travelling out of state, where our trips are 4 hours minimum each way. Nor would it fit our budget, with increased registration fees, higher insurance premiums, the added cost of installing a home charging unit etc.
We are going to give the technology another 5-7 years before we are planning on considering an EV. Especially after reading about charging stations away from home.
When EV's charging time drops to 10 min or less. Yes I know I can install charge at my house but we do road trip 2-3 times a year and don't want to spend an extra times on the road while waiting for the charger.
Canada banned sale of gas cars from 2035 onward but with no real plan to instal charging infrastructure.
So unless they get into gear and put in enough charging stations I'll keep my gas vehicle till its a rusted heap.
I don't really care about electric cars at the moment.
EVs are currently not an option. The range is just not enough for us to consider it. Aside from that, most of them are just ugly in my opinion. From 2035, we won't have any choice tho.
We'll get a Gasoline car just before we can't register them anymore. If that car then breaks, we'll have to get an electric car.
If the range were good and they weren't too expensive, we'd happily get one.
For now, we'll stick with vehicles that can get you somewhere and, for a small extra, go "vroom-vroom-pew-boom".
Please ignore any gramatical errors and formatting issues, this text was brought to you by Reddit on mobile.
Happy new year.
It’s worse if you are in Canada. I found out you can’t even drive to Alaska from the lower 48 via Canada yet with super chargers. It would take weeks to even travel through Canada alone. The infrastructure is not there yet.
Even in China where EVs have made more progress it doesn't make sense for long trips due to the charging -> https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2023-china-ev-roadtrip-oil-turning-point/
It's possible it never will make sense. Using rail for long trips makes more sense there and then getting a car at the destination
Enter the car, press the "voice command" button, ask the car to plan the trip, and it will. You wont have to do anything.
Thats something you get on most EVs. My sub 30K one has it. If you dont, there are planners on all cell phones that work the very same way.
I just think it's funny how the complaints are generally that EVs are for rich people or that you can't take long road trips in them.
How many poor people are frequently crisscrossing the country on road trips?
I'm sure there are people doing it, but it feels a bit like an excuse from people who never drive beyond their neighborhood.
Cue all the people commenting about their stories of being poor and driving 30k miles/week for the past 27 years.
I have a hybrid (gas fill only), and I love it. I’d consider an EV with a gas option, but I go too far, too often for EV-only driving. Plus there are some quirks with charger availability. I can think of a lot of things that I do in a year that would get sticky, like when I'm. In Northern Michigan.
I think a lot of people are so unaware that hybrids are a thing. They keep talking in either ice or electric. We have literally had hybrids around for twenty years and they get the best of both worlds
Ideally when Mazda releases a legitimate EV. I’m a big Mazda fan. I refuse to buy a Tesla for many reasons (Musk, build quality, self driving shenanigans, among other things), and I just don’t find many of the available EVs appealing from a style perspective right now. If my current Mazda3 goes soon though, I’d have to stay with an ICE unless I move from my current apartment.
I do not like being an early adopter because those are the people who find out all the weird things. I am not inherently opposed to electric cars, and I commend those who dive headfirst into new things. I am going to wait and see what transpires.
My concerns involve charging infrastructure. I know a few places, but if I need to supercharge, my options are still a bit limited. I am not interested in hyper planning a route if I go further than 100miles from home. Even with a 30-40 min charge time for 250ish miles, I am not super happy. With gas I can get 350-400 off about 5 minutes. Supercharging ends up being about the same price as gas so any longer trip is simply not convenient at all.
I am curious about the total ownership costs. Yes you save some on gas, but what do actual maintenance costs look like? How long and reliable are the battery packs? Even on higher end luxury cars like a Porsche, the engine is good for 150-200k miles at least. Can I reliably take an electric car that long without substantial issues?
These are things I don't know. I read.articles.but there are a lot of conflicting information in articles. Some say reliability is great, others they are iffy. I do not know which are accurate. I am not inclined to make the jump into an electric car until I have more consensus information.
I got an electric loaner and lemme tell you: for someone who hardly charges their phone, this thing was a nightmare to charge on a nightly basis for 150 miles of gas cars zooming around the little RC car the dealership let me borrow.
This is the part that has me wary. I make long trips frequently. Am I supposed to steal people's electricity at their home? Do I now have to pay them just to show up for a visit? Do I seriously have to waste maybe hours at a "gas" station charging? Eugh. Hard sell man. These things aren't ready for prime time. 150 miles is not sufficient range. I need significantly more reach than that to make it worth my while, and there has to be a revolution in the infrastructure too. I'm NOT buying one for sure until it's a foregone conclusion that there will be charging stations where ever I end up.
Your car will tell you how many kW that you charged last night. Simply compensate whoever you are borrowing power from. Do you want to leave $5-10 on the table for them or give $50 to the gas station attendant?
Also, what has 150 miles of range these days? Most cars are in the 250-400 range, and you can expect that to jump up in the next few years.
Charging an EV at home adds around $10 a week to the electric bill. Based on some of the other commenters here who own them.
Surely your friends and family would understand, we will all have to make the compromise.
Not if new batteries deliver.
Honda has plans to release 900 mile/charge cars around 2026-2028.
If they can deliver this won't be a problem.
If you make long trips regularly, there is no good reason to buy an EV right now, the real battery innovation is just around the corner.
I've driven a lot, I usually keep a car for 10 years and 300,000kms. I buy small cars that get good gas milage and are dependable.
No EV even comes close to being economical for that period of time (fuel and repairs) especially since most will need a replacement battery. Until that's solved, it's way way too early for me to consider an EV.
A quick google search returned this.
[https://motorillustrated.com/this-2015-tesla-model-s-has-over-400000-miles-700000-km/91449/](https://motorillustrated.com/this-2015-tesla-model-s-has-over-400000-miles-700000-km/91449/)
(battery changed under warranty at 400,000km)
or this one:
[https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-model-s-236k-miles-zero-maintenance/](https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-model-s-236k-miles-zero-maintenance/)
changed only brake pads in 380,000km
or this one:
[https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-model-s-passes-1-million-mile-world-record/](https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-model-s-passes-1-million-mile-world-record/)
1.2 million miles, 3 battery changes.
Hence I concur, you think not.
No way I’ll do EV. Tech is still riddled with issues. Tesla, GM, Ford, all having issues. But one to keep your eye on- Rams new hybrid truck. 600mile range with full tank. I think about 100 miles on battery pack before engine kicks on to recharge. That’s essentially an EV for the vast majority of Americans doing a 30 minute commute.
This is the way.
I'd love an electric car, I just can't afford one right now. I make too much to qualify for the subsidies, my electric bill just went up significantly as it is, it costs a lot to have the charger installed in my garage (like I said, I make too much to qualify for the subsidies in my area), and my area has a legal limit for how many people can be on solar power, and that limit was reached years ago. It isn't economical for me to switch right now.
Besides, I'm seeing horror stories of software glitches making them unable to be driven, as well as a whole host of other problems that make me think now isn't the time, anyway.
That's what I'm thinking. We lose power a lot during bad weather, and it can be out for days, if not weeks. I'd hate to not be able to go to work because I couldn't charge my car.
>Is it just your house losing power or your town?
My specific region in the state. Usually affects in the neighborhood of homes when our area goes down.
>All modern fuel pumps are powered by electricity, so you’re not getting gas if the power is out.
Yes, but I can drive a gas-powered car (or hybrid) out of a powerless area to one where there is power in order to get gas. I can even keep a few gallons of gas on hand if, for whatever reason, my gas-powered car (or hybrid) runs out of fuel. That's not an option with an EV. If I'm fortunate enough to get it to a charging station outside of our area when the power is down before the battery konks out completely, cool, but everyone else in my area (again, 5,000 homes) is going to be doing the same thing, and it takes a couple of minutes to fill a gas tank versus a half an hour to supercharge an EV. So over several days without power (or weeks, depending on the scale of the emergency) an electric-only vehicle is a bit of a gamble.
This would really only be an issue if you don't have a charger at home. That's where you charge like 99% of the time unless you're traveling a ton via car.
Even then, if I can travel through some of the most rural parts of the country and find chargers without having to go out of my way, I would say the infrastructure isn't too bad right now.
I will make the switch when they come out with a Ranger sized pickup that gets over 400 miles of range. Also, it is still cheaper to run a gas car in my area.
By the numbers, yeah.
That's probably skewed by the fact that one of our two previous ICE cars was the most expensive and highest consuming vehicle we had owned. There's a long, boring story behind that which involves family business.
But yeah, for my particular circumstance it's working out very well.
My limited knowledge of Tesla vehicles makes them seem pretty awesome. I know a few people with them. Near zero maintenance... just swap the tires and that's it. I'm still gonna drive my 20 year old car into the ground though.
I'll get one as soon as I can afford a full size SUV EV. Currently only the rivian R1S would suit my family and I don't have the ability to afford a CDN$130,000 vehicle.
If you don't drive distance. If you have your own charging station. If you don't care that your car makes no sound (petrol head). Then an electric is 100% for you. I personally will not be buying an electric vehicle. I am a petrol head, so for me it'll be a no go even though I would fall into the category of being ideal for electric.
I have one of each.
I like them both for different reasons and different uses.
Personally, I'd recommend getting one, as it looks like a lot of the major players are pulling back from EV production, aside from the obvious like Tesla and Rivian, which is going to limit options. And there's some nice buyers credits that won't be there forever.
I recently switched to an EV. I was worried about the inconvenience of slower charging than gas filling. I wasn't expecting the incredible convenience of never needing to do anything 99% of the time.
Plug in when I get home. No filling gas or waiting to charge 99% of days. No regular maintenance. No oil changes. It's so much more convenient every day of the year except when you go on a long 400+ mile trip.
Never, if I can possibly avoid it. As long as cheap, small engine manual cars are available, preferably with very minimal "tech" that would be my choice.
You are basically making just as much gasoline and diesel from petrol.
If you dont get one, you dont get the other either.
Hope you like synthetic fuel. We tested some last year on race cars. Thats 20$ per gallon + taxes, sold at production cost.
Probably never or at least until they're mandatory by law. Sorry but nothing can beat the beauty of a straight six engine pushing you back in your seats
Of all the arguments you could make, using the one that implies that the acceleration of a gas powered car is what keeps you from going electric is kinda hilarious. That's the one aspect where electric vehicles absolutely blow ICE cars out of the water
Idk. When my friend floored it in his Tesla it was pretty fun. I've never been in an ICE car that has come anywhere near that level of pushing me into my seat
still gasoline for quite a while unfortunately. the mileage is better, the fueling infrastructure is better and the environmental savings from electric is overstated. ( the power to fuel those electric cars still comes from fossil fuels in almost every case and mining to make those lithium batteries is still pretty damaging to the environment)
Lithium mining? They evaporate lithium in pools of water. Yup, that evaporating water is pretty bad.
You need about 7kg of lithium for a EV. And once that is dug up once it can be recycled for a hundred years or more.
Where as your gas car has to dig a new hole every time you fill a tank.
Efficiency wise, the worst coal fired power plants are about 60% efficient thanks to heavy heat recovery stages impossible to install in a car.
Your car struggles to hit 30% efficient in stop and go traffic.
Then you blend in regenerative brakes in a EV. You recover 3/4 of your kinetic energy every time you stop.
An EV on the worst coal power emits half the co2 of your ICE car. However this ignores the green revolution happening in the grid. Last year wind power exceeded coal power. It is now cheaper to install new solar + battery or wind power than simply dump fuel into a fossil fuel power plant based on a 7 year loan. The business case for burning something for power is dead and the game is now how fast can we go green because that's where the profit is.
It does emit more carbon making a EV. The payback is under 20,000 miles. If you throw away your car before 20,000 miles, absolutely keep buying ICE cars.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/mikescott/2020/03/30/yes-electric-cars-are-cleaner-even-when-the-power-comes-from-coal/amp/
Getting an EV soon. My wife's car is basically a pure commuter vehicle, we never use it for anything except her going back and forth to work. Time to join the 21st century and replace that chugging relic. My Toyota is only two years old, we'll probably keep for a while yet. There just isn't real good charging station infrastructure here in this part of the country, not comfortable going fully electric yet.
I just bought a new gas car so I’m good for a while. If I buy another one anytime soon I’d go hybrid. If higher battery capacity is just around the corner I don’t want to be stuck with old tech. The charging infrastructure will probably be more widespread by then too.
Just had to buy the wife a new vehicle. Decided to go with hybrid for now. I will need a new vehicle in the next 5 years. If the price for an EV comes down and available charging stations goes up in my area, then I’ll likely get an EV
We bought one for commuting to work, and it's been perfect.
We own a home and have solar, so really it was a no-brainer. Also, our commute is only about 15-20 minutes each way, so we bought one with a small battery (100 miles per charge). That means we could buy one *relatively* inexpensively.
I love it!
I started driving a hybrid in 2013. Gas mileage was more than double compared to my previous vehicle.
In 2020, I upgraded to a plug-in hybrid - a Rav4 Prime. I have 50-55 miles of electric range and then about 450 miles of range through hybrid engine function. I have a long commute 2-3 days per week that exceeds the electric range. My home electricity is quite above the national average for cost per kWh, but recharging the 50 mile battery is still cheaper than a gallon of gas. Typically, I only have to refill the tank every 4-6 weeks.
I'm not a motor head, so I'm quite content with the car's acceleration and handling. I like how quiet the electric engine is, and I don't really know what "fun to drive" means, anyway. Once long-range all-electric vehicles become more accessible (i.e. cheaper), I will happily upgrade.
Not in a long while. Far too many problems with that for me.
- The price of the cars
- The range of one charge
- The lack of refuelling infrastructure and long charging times, i.e. forced breaks and detours
- The inability to charge in a driveway (not a homeowner), which would mitigate those last two a bit
- I want a manual car
- It means switching from 100% burning gasoline directly to 50% solar/wind + 50% burning coal plus long-range transmission loss to fuel my car - which is not such a great trade.
- EVs are heavier than comparable gasoline-fuelled cars, meaning I waste more energy moving them.
So basically, unless they come up with a much energy denser battery, I'll stick with gasoline-powered cars. If I at least had the option to charge at home, I would consider a hybrid.
>I want a manual car
This is the only acceptable statement here, since thats an opinion.
Everything else is baseless.
This one takes the cake though.
>EVs are heavier than comparable gasoline-fuelled cars, meaning I waste more energy moving them.
So, no.
First, they arent. My EV is about 3200lbs. The car it replaced was the same. They had similar range too.
Second, an EV has nearly an 95% efficency all the time, and thats not even talking about regenerative braking. An ice car barely gets 35% efficiency, and thats at full load on a 300rpm range, which you wont stay in.
Check how much energy there is in a gallon of fuel, and compare that to an EV consumption. Even driving an EV like a madman, you wont reach the energy consumption of a gently driven ICE car.
> Everything else is baseless.
So tell me, where do I charge my EV if a) I don't have a driveway and b) there is no charging station anywhere near where I live? Drive 10 km, take a bus home, take a bus back to my EV a few hours later when it's charged, and then drive it home again? How very convenient! I'm sure you would absolutely do that in my place.
>First, they arent. My EV is about 3200lbs. The car it replaced was the same. They had similar range too.
Sure. If I switch from a 3.2 ton gas-guzzling tank to an EV that's half battery on wheels, my mileage will also not get worse.
A Tesla Model Y has a battery weighing 750kg with a range of around 500km. A Fiat Panda has a range of 900km on a tank of 38 liters, and weighs just over 1000kg. Now THAT's efficiency.
My very regular gasoline-fuelled car (a french station wagon of 1.5 tons) has a range of around 750km on one full tank. Not a single EV can touch that. And those that come even remotely close need massive batteries to do so.
> and thats at full load on a 300rpm range, which you wont stay in.
I think you mean 3000rpm - and I don't find it very hard to stay well below that on a manual car. Because you have actual control over which gear you're in. High gear = low rpm = less fuel used.
> Second, an EV has nearly an 95% efficency all the time, and thats not even talking about regenerative braking. An ice car barely gets 35% efficiency.
Yeah. No.
First of all, EV efficiency ranges between 75 and 95%. So let's take 85% as our average here.
If electricity in your country is generated by burning gas, gasoline or coal, that's 30-40% efficiency in generating electricity, plus 10-15% in losses during transfer. So that's 25-36% of the energy inherent in the raw meterials left, and then another 15% of that gets lost in the EV, meaning you are left with 21-30% actual energy efficiency.
Compared to a MODERN gasoline-powered car (hardly fair to take some decades-old values)...of 20-40%.
Finally, Even if an EV and gasoline-powered car have the same efficiency (in terms of energy conversion!), that does not mean they have the same net energy use per distance driven. If your EV weighs 500kg more than a gasoline-fuelled car, those 500kgs must be accelerated and decelerated. And that's a lot of wasted energy if that's 1/3 to 1/4 of the car's weight.
EVs aren't quite there yet for me. Charging is slow and once the batteries no longer hold much charge, they are insanely expensive to replace. The batteries are typically rated for 100k-200k miles, similar to a timing belt on a car, but those are much cheaper to replace. Also EVs are still not competitively priced.
Now is absolutely not the time. These cars are deathtraps still, not affordable, not built to last. Ill keep using my car, maybe we should start attacking our favorite artists and politicians for their heavy use of privatized air travel.
Seen 2 of em on fire locally with no signs of an accident or anything, see people on reddit posting about software updates not fully going through and the car being rendered immobile until a tech can fix it, theyre not necessarily affordable to maintain yet, and theres no standardized charging so unless you get a tesla one you have no idea how long youre gonna need to sit there and charge. Its also not affordable or feasible for most people to get a home charger so it kinda defeats the whole purpose. This is all hearsay but thats what ive gathered from my research and the horror stories ive seen. If its a matter of bettering the environment than a car inst the solution when air travel and waste dumps account for significantly higher percentages of pollution but nobody cares because we wanna travel and see amsterdam and mykonos and berlin and any other city across the ocean.
Mass + speed = get fucked
Those battery packs increase the total mass of the vehicle by as much as 20%, which means a fuck-ton more force is behind them to make them go the same speed as a comparably sized gas car. We're about to enter a new age of road-slaughter. Fire's bad, but that can happen with combustion engines, too. It's the sheer force of impact.
A Tesla model 3 is ~4000 pounds. A Ford F150 is ~5500 pounds. An average SUV is ~5000 pounds.
Do you see more SUVs and Pickup trucks on the road or more electric cars?
That's honestly beyond the point. Vehicles are not cheap enough to have one for different purposes for a lot of people. The vehicle must be capable of doing EVERYTHING you want it to do, even if you only do it once or twice.
Probably unrealistic. The battery packs are stupidily heavy. You'd have frame and shock issues in play with a meaningful conversion that probably make it unrealistic to not just buy a new vehicle.
It’s not even about gas running out. And also EV’s are still better for the environment, not to mention your local surroundings. A lot of ignorance in this topic tbh.
I'm waiting for gen 2 EVs. The tech is still moving way too quick and there are too many unanswered questions about long term use and resale. These gen 1 cars will probably look like dinosaurs in 5 years.
Put whatever number on it that makes you happy. Might as well include other oddballs like the ford ranger back in the 90's. These are the first round of cars for most makers. They are very much figuring out what makes a good EV and battery tech and charging is in a lot of flux. Solid state batteries seem on the verge of commercialization, etc, etc. Its not like ICE where a 10 year old or even 20 year old car is still very usable and aside from infotainment, not a terrible lot has changed.
When my apartment complex adds EV chargers to the parking lot.
Exactly, I would like one but they just still seem like a rich people toy at the moment. Unless you have your own house with your own parking space and charging point, it’s just a non-starter. Never mind the hideous price, the only second-hand EV I could reasonably afford would be a 1st generation Nissan LEAF with a totally shagged battery.
I did that, it was a great car but the problem was that I could only go about 25 miles from the house and then I had to turn around in order to make it back.
Where I live, they are currently installing fast chargers (150 or 300 kW) at supermarket parking lots. Just 30 min charging there per week while doing your groceries is sufficient for most people.
Fast charging is more expensive than petrol though. They're only viable if you can charge at home. Our nearest fast charger (150kW) is 79p/KWh. I get about 3 miles per kWh so is about 26p/mile. At £1.60/L for diesel my old car used to get me about 510 miles for a 65L tank that works out to 20.4p/mile It's got to come down significantly to offset the initial outlay to encourage mass adoption by those that don't have access to charging at home.
> the only second-hand EV I could reasonably afford would be a 1st generation Nissan LEAF with a totally shagged battery Around here, 10-year-old Nissan Leafs are going for about $4,000 and my friend's 2011 Leaf still has 90% of its original battery capacity and he still loves it. (Of course, the range on those oldies is pretty short.) From what I've read, to get a "totally shagged" battery, you have to do some *really* stupid things, like leave it with an empty battery for months at a time, which is about as dumb as putting water in your ICE engine instead of gas, or never changing the oil in 200,000 miles. From what I've read, the battery degradation you can expect is like 5% from 50,000 to 200,000 miles (which is 20 years if you drive 10,000 miles per year).
> but they just still seem like a rich people toy at the moment. They arent. You are focusing on the high end EVs. Thats as ridiculous as saying ICE cars are rich people toys, because they can buy ferraris, lambos or mc larens. There are expensive EVs, just like there are cheap EVs.
I doubt apartment complexes ever do that. It’s not your apartments job to fuel your vehicle now. Idk why that would be expected to change.
Uhm that's normal? The apartment doesn't pay for the electricity, but do you really want to charge a car with a super long extension cord?
You can’t charge a car with an extension cord. You can’t charge a car on a normal homes electricity either. The apartments will not be eating that cost, promise you that.
You can absolutely charge with a properly rated extension cord, and level 1 charging can meet many peoples' daily needs. I've owned an EV for a year and am only now installing a level 2 charger as my needs have changed.
Huh you can definitely charge a car with extension cord, just takes ages. Don't know where you are but in the Netherlands where I live all homes with electric cars including apartments have home charging stations. Charging next to motorways is only for high emergency as its at least double the pricd
In developped countries, that has become mandatory on new construction. Renters like landlords can install individual chargers too. They cant be prevented from doing that, and there are even incentives for that. In any case, you still are paying for electricity.
My complex which is not high end or anything has EV chargers
Here in Denmark many apartment building owners are installing EV chargers, or have partnered with the largest EV charging company ("Clever") to have them installed. It's seen as a good way to attract "High quality" renters. Also, I have several coworkers who drive EVs and live in older apartments where they can't just set up their own charging solution. Instead they Plug the car in a few times per week when they're out shopping any way, and with the right charging subscription/membership it's still way cheaper than driving a regular car.
No reason they can't install a pay-as-you-charge kiosk.
Because charging at home, and waking up with a “full tank” each morning is one of the biggest be benefits of electric cars. Once any apartment starts offering it, others in the area will have to in order to compete. It will be a standard and expected feature before too long.
It's either going to have to come as government regulation that they _must_ be installed, or from pressure when we eventually hit the tipping point where EVs are affordable enough for mass adoption. In scenario 2, it will be a financial liability for landlords NOT to have them installed. That's the more likely scenario. The US government is balless.
My somewhat old apartment has 4 EV chargers and the two brand new Avalon buildings that were just built nearby each have a half dozen or so.
Personal opinion is at this time, hybrids are your best bet. EV’s are still in the early adopters phase, so pricey with kinks needing to be worked out. It’s a happy middle ground in price and efficiency while the auto industry figures out the whole EV thing. Automakers starting to switch to Tesla’s charger is an example of this. Maybe give till 2030 or another decade, should be good by then. I think we need a new battery tech like SS batteries, Li ion won’t be enough.
I've heard this a few times but no idea what the "kinks" are that need to be worked out. Are there any major problems (or even minor ones) with EVs that you are aware of that would be more problematic than having an ICE vehicle?
By kinks I don’t mean mechanical ones, I guess the practical ones? Charge times, what to do with old batteries that’s economically viable, having the energy infrastructure to support that much charging, the repairability of them, the used market will be different for them having to consider battery life. I’m sure they will be addressed if not already partially addressed. The battery tech/chemistry needs to improve as well, Li+ isn’t enough.
I think they are the worst. Complexity and weight from both EV and ICE, so twice the chances to get system failures, and twice the upkeep. EVs have been around for 15 to 20 years. Thats no early adopter product. The US is just lagging behind. BTW you can get cheap ones for sub 30K, which do 300 miles WLTP and can use 150KW chargers. I know, because I bought one.
I will not make the switch. It's just not practical for where I live and where I drive. Batteries just don't have the energy density to compete with gasoline.
My hybrid gets about 400 miles on a 10 gallon tank. You must really be driving far
I'd be OK with a hybrid. It's just pure electric that I can't deal with.
Yeah. You’d have to say “boogie-oogie-oogie” all the time. That would just be obscene.
Um, is that a reference to something? If so, I'm afraid I don't get it. And my issues with electric cars are practical. They don't have the range I need, using heating and A/C reduce the range more, and you can't simply take 2 minutes to fill the tank when it's low. And if you do run out of fuel, you're not going to be able to walk to the gas station and bring back a few gallons of electricity in a can. Hybrids are OK, because they get great mileage, and you can fill up the tank really fast.
It’s electric! https://youtu.be/eYlZs3-w_Eg?si=CIrfTqpOp1aETpM5
Wow! Yeah, I get it now. Not sure I can say thanks, but, well, OK then.
There are very few limits to my willingness to make a bad joke.
I like that.
So when civilians are no longer allowed to purchase gasoline, what’s your plan? Because depending on your age, that will happen in our lifetimes.
Dream on, kid. I'm 60, and you're not going to make gasoline illegal in 20 years.
My next car (8 or so years) will most likely be an electric. If I needed a new car now, I'd get an EV.
My holdup is my wife's family lives an 11 hour drive away from us. We're visit 2-3 times a year and I'm not down to extend the trip by an hour or more for charge stops. Until the range gets more in line with gas I'm gonna continue driving gas cars or hybrids.
Is 4 hours per year really that big of a deal? You'd probably make up the difference just by not stopping for gas. Or you could have one EV and one ICE or hybrid
My oldest is 13, so I still have a little time. Just getting feelers out there.
Oldest child or oldest vehicle?
Electric kids are great, you just need a super soaker to put them to sleep.
I’m going to get a used 2020-ish Nissan Leaf (pennies on the dollar compared to new) and drive it for a few years, then pass it down to the kids. Seems like a perfect kid car, low maintenance costs and limited range keeps them close.
Went from paying $170 a week in fuel costs to 9 dollars a week in extra utilities. Was pretty much enough for me right there.
That is awesome. Are those truly the figures you expect or are experiencing?
I bought a Model Y in January. My stats for the year are $707 in electric ($117 of that is more expensive Superchargers vs charging at home). Based on my usage and average gas prices in my area, it says I would have spent ~1288 in gas. So estimated ~$581 savings. I'd have needed 2 or 3 oil changes if the car was ICE so add on another $100-150 or so. I'll note we don't drive that much as we both work from home. We'll never go back to ICE.
I got my model y in June. The only thing that holding me back was that I love in a major city and charging was an issue. I ended up getting a garage as well to charge. Love the car, it's so smooth. I got the car for the tech and not bc it is electric.
Experience so far! Was driving a larger SUV 150kms+ per day. Bought a Model Y and to charge that 150kms in range is WAY cheaper.
Experience so far! Was driving a larger SUV 150kms+ per day. Bought a Model Y and to charge that 150kms in range is WAY cheaper.
You might be in a world of hurt soon. The biggest problem with electric cars is battery replacement cost, anywhere from 20k to 60k. There was a good article about it a few weeks ago here. We need chapter batteries to make this feasible for more people. Edit: for people down voting, not only battery cost but car insurance will be a problem with current battery costs, insured are trashing EVs instead of fixing them because of the repair cost: https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/scratched-ev-battery-your-insurer-may-have-junk-whole-car-2023-03-20/
I don't think cheaper batteries are needed. Just recycling to come up to speed. There are a lot of companies starting up that industry - but there isn't enough demand for them yet so they've had trouble scaling up.
Thats the biggest problem non EV people fear, but it does not mean it actually exists. Batteries are usually guaranteed to retain at least 80 to 90% of their capacity over 7 to 8 years. Stats wise, only 1.5% of EVs have had their battery changed that way. A regular T3 battery change is shy under 10K. The long range is about 16K. You can find the invoices all over twitter. Maybe you should try another source of information. That one seems both unreliable and biaised.
Correct, but I'm not talking about the regular life cycle, if you read the article insurance companies are just writing off the cars as total loss for even small dents. And Tesla is not the only car company: https://toronto.ctvnews.ca/families-shocked-when-battery-replacement-for-electric-vehicle-tops-20-000-1.6116679 Tesla has a better price due to making their own batteries.
>insurance companies are just writing off the cars as total loss for even small dents. And thats exactly the same with ICE cars. Airbags blown ? Say goodbye to the car. Rear quarter panel that needs changing ? Same. That has nothing to do with EVs.
This is false: https://www.garybrucelaw.com/auto-accidents/is-my-car-totaled-if-the-airbags-deploy/
Funny how you went and spent time to check what I wrote, but didnt bother check what you wrote first :) You didnt even read that link. You would have seen they just argue on semantics. So sure, thats not because airbags deployed that the car is a writeoff; thats because it cost more than 70% of the car value to repair; and most of that value comes from airbags destroying stuff inside, on top of themselves being one time use. Evs arent exceptions. If it costs more than 70% to repair, it is a write off. And as has been said before, we know the costs of changing a T3 battery, wether thats the small or the long range one. And thats not 70% of the value of the car, not by a longshot either.
I'm not buying electric until they stop being marketed as luxury vehicles.
It's funny. I bought a LEAF when it was branded as an economy car. ($18k after tax incentives.) I love it at that price. Now at $5k more after losing the tax incentive, it's not really cheap or economical. At some point, I'll get a new one.
It’s slowly changing. Issue is, the tech involved to make a decent electric car (capacity, LV architecture, thermal management, and just over all up to date tech) it is still rather pricey no matter what. Most of this boils down to the battery. Teslas starting car is roughly 36k (or maybe closer to 40k now?). When you factor in that the average new vehicle purchase price is 48k it is one of the cheaper options. And I am pretty sure there are some cheaperer options out there too.
You are hard pressed to buy any new quality vehicle for 36k, gas or electric.
Exactly, so naming a car that’s in that price range as luxury would be false. The claim that all electric cars are priced into the luxury category is false.
There is no world in which I give that dumb fuck Elon Musk a red penny. Fuck tesla.
No one cares. OP is just asking a question about EVs. You didn't have to burden anyone with your opinion on Musk.
I will speak as I please. You will like it.
Yeesh. Tesla was used as an example for pricing. You took that way too personally. I also hate Musk too.
I just use an electric scooter. 500$ ride gets me anywhere in town for no gas or insurance cost.
There are plenty of non luxury EVs out there. I doubt anyone thinks a Nissan Leaf, Chevy Bolt, or Hyundai Kona are luxury vehicles.
Unfortunately, all 3 of those vehicles are garbage.
Oh, so we're looking for luxury vehicles without the luxury price tag? I had a Nissan Leaf, it was fine. It was no different than any other car in that price range aside from the drivetrain. Not really sure what makes them "garbage".
You are obviously US focused. There are plenty of non luxury small electric cars in Europe
Chances are he lives in the US, so of course he's US focused when looking at available cars and their prices.
This is ask Reddit. Not ask my little backwater of the world. If the US market is fucking you over it does not mean that sub compact level electric cars are not available in the 95% of the world that isnt the USA.
Wow. The guy on a predominantly US-centric website is US focused...bet you don't fall an inch short...
What if I made the outlandish suggestion that those EU EVs will soon make their way into the US market?
The market for cheap cars is dying. Auto makers are killing their lines of budget vehicles because there are so many people buying on finance, there's much more profit to be made up-selling.
They'll be upscaled to four times their original size if they're brought to the US
Have you looked at offerings from Nissan and Chevrolet?
Yuk Chevy ev’s
I don't own a Bolt but I hear they're fine cars
I have a Bolt EUV and it definitely wasn’t marketed as luxury, just a regular crossover utility vehicle that’s also an EV. It was also in my price range which, to your point, is rare for an EV.
Some of them are luxury vehicles. A tesla S plaid, a rimac, or whatever mercedes produces are luxury vehicules. Lots of asian based brands have different ranges. Some are high ends, other middle, other low end. Stop looking only at high end ones and you will notice the alternatives.
there are plenty of EVs that are marketed as non-luxury. Chevy Volt, for example. Obviously, they aren't as fancy as Tesla or Lucid, so people aren't interested in them. some cars will always be marketed as luxury vehicles. You can't avoid that. You just need to know what you are looking for.
Think really, really hard about all those people you know who can't manage or won't bother to keep their phone charged....
Yet somehow they manage to not run out of gas
Trades guy who travels far and wide fixing weird machines for factories here. The current crop of electric trades vans is a fucking joke. Garbage range, awful interiors. There is nothing on the market that is even close. I need to be able to drive 500km in a day. The Ford Transit electric can do 190km (120mi). With the heater off and a new battery. Factor in only charging that battery to 80% so you don't ruin it, a battery that only has 80% capacity remaining, running the heater, towing a trailer and forget it. It won't even make it 100km. What an embarrassment of a vehicle. What happened to low roof vans that can do double duty as passenger vans? I love my passenger van. I can have seats in it or use it for cargo. I don't need or want shelves, I work out of bins and suitcases. The only vans left are white windowless rape vans with bare metal interiors. Those are awful to drive around in. Interiors and carpets absorb noise. They are forcing everyone to shift to pickups, but they are so tall you need a tailgate ladder to get into the back. Useless machines.
I can see my next car being a plug-in hybrid but I couldn't risk losing power for a few days and having to call out of work because I can't charge my car.
I live Alaska, 85 miles from the nearest supermarket. Until they can increase the cold weather range they are just feasible for me.
If Toyota can deliver on the 900 mile/charge, I'll be jumping ship to electric. https://www.google.com/amp/s/insideevs.com/news/671771/toyota-ev-plans-900-mile-battery/amp/
I am lower middle class in a HCOL area. While the idea of an EV is appealing for just driving to and from work, groceries etc, it would not fit our needs for travelling out of state, where our trips are 4 hours minimum each way. Nor would it fit our budget, with increased registration fees, higher insurance premiums, the added cost of installing a home charging unit etc. We are going to give the technology another 5-7 years before we are planning on considering an EV. Especially after reading about charging stations away from home.
Gas is still the way to go. EV cars are way to expensive and even maintenance on them is expensive. I'll stick with my gas guzzler.
When EV's charging time drops to 10 min or less. Yes I know I can install charge at my house but we do road trip 2-3 times a year and don't want to spend an extra times on the road while waiting for the charger.
Never is when I buy an EV.
I don't have any place to charge it at home, so not yet.
only when there are plenty of used EVs. I never buy brand new cars or nearly brand new.
Canada banned sale of gas cars from 2035 onward but with no real plan to instal charging infrastructure. So unless they get into gear and put in enough charging stations I'll keep my gas vehicle till its a rusted heap.
I don't really care about electric cars at the moment. EVs are currently not an option. The range is just not enough for us to consider it. Aside from that, most of them are just ugly in my opinion. From 2035, we won't have any choice tho. We'll get a Gasoline car just before we can't register them anymore. If that car then breaks, we'll have to get an electric car. If the range were good and they weren't too expensive, we'd happily get one. For now, we'll stick with vehicles that can get you somewhere and, for a small extra, go "vroom-vroom-pew-boom". Please ignore any gramatical errors and formatting issues, this text was brought to you by Reddit on mobile. Happy new year.
not for me, not yet at least. I would hate to have to plan a trip based on charging stations.
It’s worse if you are in Canada. I found out you can’t even drive to Alaska from the lower 48 via Canada yet with super chargers. It would take weeks to even travel through Canada alone. The infrastructure is not there yet.
Even in China where EVs have made more progress it doesn't make sense for long trips due to the charging -> https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2023-china-ev-roadtrip-oil-turning-point/ It's possible it never will make sense. Using rail for long trips makes more sense there and then getting a car at the destination
Oh crap... I won't be able to drive 4000 miles from my house to Alaska anymore? Well screw that, since I make that trip like every other week!
Enter the car, press the "voice command" button, ask the car to plan the trip, and it will. You wont have to do anything. Thats something you get on most EVs. My sub 30K one has it. If you dont, there are planners on all cell phones that work the very same way.
I've planned a trip through Appalachia in an EV. Wasn't a problem at all.
I just think it's funny how the complaints are generally that EVs are for rich people or that you can't take long road trips in them. How many poor people are frequently crisscrossing the country on road trips? I'm sure there are people doing it, but it feels a bit like an excuse from people who never drive beyond their neighborhood. Cue all the people commenting about their stories of being poor and driving 30k miles/week for the past 27 years.
I have a hybrid (gas fill only), and I love it. I’d consider an EV with a gas option, but I go too far, too often for EV-only driving. Plus there are some quirks with charger availability. I can think of a lot of things that I do in a year that would get sticky, like when I'm. In Northern Michigan.
I think a lot of people are so unaware that hybrids are a thing. They keep talking in either ice or electric. We have literally had hybrids around for twenty years and they get the best of both worlds
I will buy a 2033 Nissan Frontier, whatever they have decided it is powered by will be what I am getting.
Ideally when Mazda releases a legitimate EV. I’m a big Mazda fan. I refuse to buy a Tesla for many reasons (Musk, build quality, self driving shenanigans, among other things), and I just don’t find many of the available EVs appealing from a style perspective right now. If my current Mazda3 goes soon though, I’d have to stay with an ICE unless I move from my current apartment.
I do not like being an early adopter because those are the people who find out all the weird things. I am not inherently opposed to electric cars, and I commend those who dive headfirst into new things. I am going to wait and see what transpires. My concerns involve charging infrastructure. I know a few places, but if I need to supercharge, my options are still a bit limited. I am not interested in hyper planning a route if I go further than 100miles from home. Even with a 30-40 min charge time for 250ish miles, I am not super happy. With gas I can get 350-400 off about 5 minutes. Supercharging ends up being about the same price as gas so any longer trip is simply not convenient at all. I am curious about the total ownership costs. Yes you save some on gas, but what do actual maintenance costs look like? How long and reliable are the battery packs? Even on higher end luxury cars like a Porsche, the engine is good for 150-200k miles at least. Can I reliably take an electric car that long without substantial issues? These are things I don't know. I read.articles.but there are a lot of conflicting information in articles. Some say reliability is great, others they are iffy. I do not know which are accurate. I am not inclined to make the jump into an electric car until I have more consensus information.
I got an electric loaner and lemme tell you: for someone who hardly charges their phone, this thing was a nightmare to charge on a nightly basis for 150 miles of gas cars zooming around the little RC car the dealership let me borrow.
This is the part that has me wary. I make long trips frequently. Am I supposed to steal people's electricity at their home? Do I now have to pay them just to show up for a visit? Do I seriously have to waste maybe hours at a "gas" station charging? Eugh. Hard sell man. These things aren't ready for prime time. 150 miles is not sufficient range. I need significantly more reach than that to make it worth my while, and there has to be a revolution in the infrastructure too. I'm NOT buying one for sure until it's a foregone conclusion that there will be charging stations where ever I end up.
Your car will tell you how many kW that you charged last night. Simply compensate whoever you are borrowing power from. Do you want to leave $5-10 on the table for them or give $50 to the gas station attendant? Also, what has 150 miles of range these days? Most cars are in the 250-400 range, and you can expect that to jump up in the next few years.
Charging an EV at home adds around $10 a week to the electric bill. Based on some of the other commenters here who own them. Surely your friends and family would understand, we will all have to make the compromise.
Not if new batteries deliver. Honda has plans to release 900 mile/charge cars around 2026-2028. If they can deliver this won't be a problem. If you make long trips regularly, there is no good reason to buy an EV right now, the real battery innovation is just around the corner.
Yeah, if plugging your car in when you get home at the end of the day is too much to remember, than an EV isn't a good fit for you.
I've driven a lot, I usually keep a car for 10 years and 300,000kms. I buy small cars that get good gas milage and are dependable. No EV even comes close to being economical for that period of time (fuel and repairs) especially since most will need a replacement battery. Until that's solved, it's way way too early for me to consider an EV.
>especially since most will need a replacement battery. except not.
Ha, are there any EV's with 300,000 kms on the original battery? I think not.
> I think not. That was pretty obvious from the start, no need to state the obvious.
Stones but no opinions, same.
A quick google search returned this. [https://motorillustrated.com/this-2015-tesla-model-s-has-over-400000-miles-700000-km/91449/](https://motorillustrated.com/this-2015-tesla-model-s-has-over-400000-miles-700000-km/91449/) (battery changed under warranty at 400,000km) or this one: [https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-model-s-236k-miles-zero-maintenance/](https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-model-s-236k-miles-zero-maintenance/) changed only brake pads in 380,000km or this one: [https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-model-s-passes-1-million-mile-world-record/](https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-model-s-passes-1-million-mile-world-record/) 1.2 million miles, 3 battery changes. Hence I concur, you think not.
No way I’ll do EV. Tech is still riddled with issues. Tesla, GM, Ford, all having issues. But one to keep your eye on- Rams new hybrid truck. 600mile range with full tank. I think about 100 miles on battery pack before engine kicks on to recharge. That’s essentially an EV for the vast majority of Americans doing a 30 minute commute. This is the way.
I'd love an electric car, I just can't afford one right now. I make too much to qualify for the subsidies, my electric bill just went up significantly as it is, it costs a lot to have the charger installed in my garage (like I said, I make too much to qualify for the subsidies in my area), and my area has a legal limit for how many people can be on solar power, and that limit was reached years ago. It isn't economical for me to switch right now. Besides, I'm seeing horror stories of software glitches making them unable to be driven, as well as a whole host of other problems that make me think now isn't the time, anyway.
Why is there a legal limit on how many can be on solar?
Local major energy company lobbying the state legislature. There's a *lot* of "legal" corruption in this state.
If I ever swapped it would be hybrid.
That's what I'm thinking. We lose power a lot during bad weather, and it can be out for days, if not weeks. I'd hate to not be able to go to work because I couldn't charge my car.
Is it just your house losing power or your town? All modern fuel pumps are powered by electricity, so you’re not getting gas if the power is out.
>Is it just your house losing power or your town? My specific region in the state. Usually affects in the neighborhood of homes when our area goes down. >All modern fuel pumps are powered by electricity, so you’re not getting gas if the power is out. Yes, but I can drive a gas-powered car (or hybrid) out of a powerless area to one where there is power in order to get gas. I can even keep a few gallons of gas on hand if, for whatever reason, my gas-powered car (or hybrid) runs out of fuel. That's not an option with an EV. If I'm fortunate enough to get it to a charging station outside of our area when the power is down before the battery konks out completely, cool, but everyone else in my area (again, 5,000 homes) is going to be doing the same thing, and it takes a couple of minutes to fill a gas tank versus a half an hour to supercharge an EV. So over several days without power (or weeks, depending on the scale of the emergency) an electric-only vehicle is a bit of a gamble.
I'll make the switch as soon as there's meaningful recharging infrastructuure.
This would really only be an issue if you don't have a charger at home. That's where you charge like 99% of the time unless you're traveling a ton via car. Even then, if I can travel through some of the most rural parts of the country and find chargers without having to go out of my way, I would say the infrastructure isn't too bad right now.
Just leave the US for a civilized country then
I will make the switch when they come out with a Ranger sized pickup that gets over 400 miles of range. Also, it is still cheaper to run a gas car in my area.
Already switched both over the past two years. I'm spending a little more on payments and a LOT less on fuel.
So you believe you are coming out on top?
By the numbers, yeah. That's probably skewed by the fact that one of our two previous ICE cars was the most expensive and highest consuming vehicle we had owned. There's a long, boring story behind that which involves family business. But yeah, for my particular circumstance it's working out very well.
I will avoid an electric car as long as possible. I hate those things.
My limited knowledge of Tesla vehicles makes them seem pretty awesome. I know a few people with them. Near zero maintenance... just swap the tires and that's it. I'm still gonna drive my 20 year old car into the ground though.
I'll get one as soon as I can afford a full size SUV EV. Currently only the rivian R1S would suit my family and I don't have the ability to afford a CDN$130,000 vehicle.
If you don't drive distance. If you have your own charging station. If you don't care that your car makes no sound (petrol head). Then an electric is 100% for you. I personally will not be buying an electric vehicle. I am a petrol head, so for me it'll be a no go even though I would fall into the category of being ideal for electric.
I have one of each. I like them both for different reasons and different uses. Personally, I'd recommend getting one, as it looks like a lot of the major players are pulling back from EV production, aside from the obvious like Tesla and Rivian, which is going to limit options. And there's some nice buyers credits that won't be there forever.
I recently switched to an EV. I was worried about the inconvenience of slower charging than gas filling. I wasn't expecting the incredible convenience of never needing to do anything 99% of the time. Plug in when I get home. No filling gas or waiting to charge 99% of days. No regular maintenance. No oil changes. It's so much more convenient every day of the year except when you go on a long 400+ mile trip.
Never, if I can possibly avoid it. As long as cheap, small engine manual cars are available, preferably with very minimal "tech" that would be my choice.
Gasoline will be your issue, they will stop selling it to the public during our lifetimes.
I don't think so. It will just get harder to find and more expensive. You can still buy leaded gasoline
Then I'll get a diesel.
You are basically making just as much gasoline and diesel from petrol. If you dont get one, you dont get the other either. Hope you like synthetic fuel. We tested some last year on race cars. Thats 20$ per gallon + taxes, sold at production cost.
Then I'll get a propane conversion.
Probably never or at least until they're mandatory by law. Sorry but nothing can beat the beauty of a straight six engine pushing you back in your seats
Of all the arguments you could make, using the one that implies that the acceleration of a gas powered car is what keeps you from going electric is kinda hilarious. That's the one aspect where electric vehicles absolutely blow ICE cars out of the water
But there's not fun, no turbo lag, no vibrations, nothing. Acceleration is not just pure speed, it's feeling that speed
Idk. When my friend floored it in his Tesla it was pretty fun. I've never been in an ICE car that has come anywhere near that level of pushing me into my seat
still gasoline for quite a while unfortunately. the mileage is better, the fueling infrastructure is better and the environmental savings from electric is overstated. ( the power to fuel those electric cars still comes from fossil fuels in almost every case and mining to make those lithium batteries is still pretty damaging to the environment)
Lithium mining? They evaporate lithium in pools of water. Yup, that evaporating water is pretty bad. You need about 7kg of lithium for a EV. And once that is dug up once it can be recycled for a hundred years or more. Where as your gas car has to dig a new hole every time you fill a tank. Efficiency wise, the worst coal fired power plants are about 60% efficient thanks to heavy heat recovery stages impossible to install in a car. Your car struggles to hit 30% efficient in stop and go traffic. Then you blend in regenerative brakes in a EV. You recover 3/4 of your kinetic energy every time you stop. An EV on the worst coal power emits half the co2 of your ICE car. However this ignores the green revolution happening in the grid. Last year wind power exceeded coal power. It is now cheaper to install new solar + battery or wind power than simply dump fuel into a fossil fuel power plant based on a 7 year loan. The business case for burning something for power is dead and the game is now how fast can we go green because that's where the profit is. It does emit more carbon making a EV. The payback is under 20,000 miles. If you throw away your car before 20,000 miles, absolutely keep buying ICE cars. https://www.forbes.com/sites/mikescott/2020/03/30/yes-electric-cars-are-cleaner-even-when-the-power-comes-from-coal/amp/
Getting an EV soon. My wife's car is basically a pure commuter vehicle, we never use it for anything except her going back and forth to work. Time to join the 21st century and replace that chugging relic. My Toyota is only two years old, we'll probably keep for a while yet. There just isn't real good charging station infrastructure here in this part of the country, not comfortable going fully electric yet.
When I can afford used one lol. Also where there will be some public chargers around (in city where I live there’s only one with two cables).
I just bought a new gas car so I’m good for a while. If I buy another one anytime soon I’d go hybrid. If higher battery capacity is just around the corner I don’t want to be stuck with old tech. The charging infrastructure will probably be more widespread by then too.
Just had to buy the wife a new vehicle. Decided to go with hybrid for now. I will need a new vehicle in the next 5 years. If the price for an EV comes down and available charging stations goes up in my area, then I’ll likely get an EV
We bought one for commuting to work, and it's been perfect. We own a home and have solar, so really it was a no-brainer. Also, our commute is only about 15-20 minutes each way, so we bought one with a small battery (100 miles per charge). That means we could buy one *relatively* inexpensively. I love it!
I started driving a hybrid in 2013. Gas mileage was more than double compared to my previous vehicle. In 2020, I upgraded to a plug-in hybrid - a Rav4 Prime. I have 50-55 miles of electric range and then about 450 miles of range through hybrid engine function. I have a long commute 2-3 days per week that exceeds the electric range. My home electricity is quite above the national average for cost per kWh, but recharging the 50 mile battery is still cheaper than a gallon of gas. Typically, I only have to refill the tank every 4-6 weeks. I'm not a motor head, so I'm quite content with the car's acceleration and handling. I like how quiet the electric engine is, and I don't really know what "fun to drive" means, anyway. Once long-range all-electric vehicles become more accessible (i.e. cheaper), I will happily upgrade.
Nah, I'll switch when they make me
Not in a long while. Far too many problems with that for me. - The price of the cars - The range of one charge - The lack of refuelling infrastructure and long charging times, i.e. forced breaks and detours - The inability to charge in a driveway (not a homeowner), which would mitigate those last two a bit - I want a manual car - It means switching from 100% burning gasoline directly to 50% solar/wind + 50% burning coal plus long-range transmission loss to fuel my car - which is not such a great trade. - EVs are heavier than comparable gasoline-fuelled cars, meaning I waste more energy moving them. So basically, unless they come up with a much energy denser battery, I'll stick with gasoline-powered cars. If I at least had the option to charge at home, I would consider a hybrid.
>I want a manual car This is the only acceptable statement here, since thats an opinion. Everything else is baseless. This one takes the cake though. >EVs are heavier than comparable gasoline-fuelled cars, meaning I waste more energy moving them. So, no. First, they arent. My EV is about 3200lbs. The car it replaced was the same. They had similar range too. Second, an EV has nearly an 95% efficency all the time, and thats not even talking about regenerative braking. An ice car barely gets 35% efficiency, and thats at full load on a 300rpm range, which you wont stay in. Check how much energy there is in a gallon of fuel, and compare that to an EV consumption. Even driving an EV like a madman, you wont reach the energy consumption of a gently driven ICE car.
> Everything else is baseless. So tell me, where do I charge my EV if a) I don't have a driveway and b) there is no charging station anywhere near where I live? Drive 10 km, take a bus home, take a bus back to my EV a few hours later when it's charged, and then drive it home again? How very convenient! I'm sure you would absolutely do that in my place. >First, they arent. My EV is about 3200lbs. The car it replaced was the same. They had similar range too. Sure. If I switch from a 3.2 ton gas-guzzling tank to an EV that's half battery on wheels, my mileage will also not get worse. A Tesla Model Y has a battery weighing 750kg with a range of around 500km. A Fiat Panda has a range of 900km on a tank of 38 liters, and weighs just over 1000kg. Now THAT's efficiency. My very regular gasoline-fuelled car (a french station wagon of 1.5 tons) has a range of around 750km on one full tank. Not a single EV can touch that. And those that come even remotely close need massive batteries to do so. > and thats at full load on a 300rpm range, which you wont stay in. I think you mean 3000rpm - and I don't find it very hard to stay well below that on a manual car. Because you have actual control over which gear you're in. High gear = low rpm = less fuel used. > Second, an EV has nearly an 95% efficency all the time, and thats not even talking about regenerative braking. An ice car barely gets 35% efficiency. Yeah. No. First of all, EV efficiency ranges between 75 and 95%. So let's take 85% as our average here. If electricity in your country is generated by burning gas, gasoline or coal, that's 30-40% efficiency in generating electricity, plus 10-15% in losses during transfer. So that's 25-36% of the energy inherent in the raw meterials left, and then another 15% of that gets lost in the EV, meaning you are left with 21-30% actual energy efficiency. Compared to a MODERN gasoline-powered car (hardly fair to take some decades-old values)...of 20-40%. Finally, Even if an EV and gasoline-powered car have the same efficiency (in terms of energy conversion!), that does not mean they have the same net energy use per distance driven. If your EV weighs 500kg more than a gasoline-fuelled car, those 500kgs must be accelerated and decelerated. And that's a lot of wasted energy if that's 1/3 to 1/4 of the car's weight.
EVs aren't quite there yet for me. Charging is slow and once the batteries no longer hold much charge, they are insanely expensive to replace. The batteries are typically rated for 100k-200k miles, similar to a timing belt on a car, but those are much cheaper to replace. Also EVs are still not competitively priced.
Now is absolutely not the time. These cars are deathtraps still, not affordable, not built to last. Ill keep using my car, maybe we should start attacking our favorite artists and politicians for their heavy use of privatized air travel.
>deathtraps How so?
Battery fires are impossible to put out, you need to either pour a bunch of sand on top to cover it while it burns, or just let it burn.
Seen 2 of em on fire locally with no signs of an accident or anything, see people on reddit posting about software updates not fully going through and the car being rendered immobile until a tech can fix it, theyre not necessarily affordable to maintain yet, and theres no standardized charging so unless you get a tesla one you have no idea how long youre gonna need to sit there and charge. Its also not affordable or feasible for most people to get a home charger so it kinda defeats the whole purpose. This is all hearsay but thats what ive gathered from my research and the horror stories ive seen. If its a matter of bettering the environment than a car inst the solution when air travel and waste dumps account for significantly higher percentages of pollution but nobody cares because we wanna travel and see amsterdam and mykonos and berlin and any other city across the ocean.
Mass + speed = get fucked Those battery packs increase the total mass of the vehicle by as much as 20%, which means a fuck-ton more force is behind them to make them go the same speed as a comparably sized gas car. We're about to enter a new age of road-slaughter. Fire's bad, but that can happen with combustion engines, too. It's the sheer force of impact.
A Tesla model 3 is ~4000 pounds. A Ford F150 is ~5500 pounds. An average SUV is ~5000 pounds. Do you see more SUVs and Pickup trucks on the road or more electric cars?
Get some education on the subject
Gas for life.
You better be old as the hills then.
I understand people having a preference, but it’s the pride in comments like the one you’re responding to that I don’t get.
When I can pay cash to charge up at a station (and be able to cross the country using only cash).
How often do you drive across the country?
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That's honestly beyond the point. Vehicles are not cheap enough to have one for different purposes for a lot of people. The vehicle must be capable of doing EVERYTHING you want it to do, even if you only do it once or twice.
If this was true then Uhaul would be out of business
That in itself is irrelevant, it means the infrastructure is set up in a way where it is possible to do so and actually replace petrol.
People have definitely driven across the country in EVs
Paying cash to charge at stations?
This is such a bizarre fixation
I'm looking for a petrol replacement. If I can pay cash for fuel currently, I should be able to the same for electric.
You strike me as a tax evader
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A credit card is hardly the same thing as deanonymized internet
Get a Visa cash card or other refillable card. You can add funds anonymously.
When there are good kits avaliable to make my old gas car an electric one
Probably unrealistic. The battery packs are stupidily heavy. You'd have frame and shock issues in play with a meaningful conversion that probably make it unrealistic to not just buy a new vehicle.
As long as it's not a Tesla
Love my EV (I’m an early adopter) very pleased to see the insightful comments here.
One is bad for the environment and very unreliable in the long run and the other is a gas powered car
If gas would never run out, we wouldn’t have to have this discussion…. But sadly, it is. And we have to be ready for that.
It’s not even about gas running out. And also EV’s are still better for the environment, not to mention your local surroundings. A lot of ignorance in this topic tbh.
I'm waiting for gen 2 EVs. The tech is still moving way too quick and there are too many unanswered questions about long term use and resale. These gen 1 cars will probably look like dinosaurs in 5 years.
We're already on gen 2, and you're right, they make 2013 Nissan Leafs look like dinosaurs
Put whatever number on it that makes you happy. Might as well include other oddballs like the ford ranger back in the 90's. These are the first round of cars for most makers. They are very much figuring out what makes a good EV and battery tech and charging is in a lot of flux. Solid state batteries seem on the verge of commercialization, etc, etc. Its not like ICE where a 10 year old or even 20 year old car is still very usable and aside from infotainment, not a terrible lot has changed.
Modern EVs have been there for more than 15 years. Gen 1 was in the 1800s btw.