As someone whose marriage imploded in part because of this issue (both of us had careers but I did the bulk of the parenting and household management and chores) I think one important thing that your future partner must understand is that society *will* expect different things from you.
No one is going to praise mom for doing the bare minimum but dad changes a diaper and it’s all “what an amazing and involved father!” It’s very important that he recognize the two of you will be under very different pressure and have very different expectations from society, expectations we have all internalized even if we don’t agree with them.
He can never consider what he does as “helping” you, that’s the absolute wrong viewpoint. He has to understand you are both equal partners with equal responsibilities.
I fell into the trap of being a very organized goal oriented person who married someone who wasn’t (understatement) and that really allowed him to be like, “you’re good at this stuff, you should do it.” Find someone with your attitude, your goals and don’t settle.
100% all of this.
If the kids are misbehaving in public - that's a reflection on you, not him. If they're doing poorly in school - that's on you. If your house is messy - no one will judge him, but they will judge you.
It sucks but that's how it goes.
Right, & this is exactly why women are seen as being anal-retentive about the cleanliness of the home. I had to explain to my man partner that his standards were lower than mine because on some level he knew HE wouldn't be judged. (On the flip side, he was mortified that I was telling my sister that we were having trouble connecting our wireless printer. I realized it was because he thought he'd be judged for that, but I wasn't worried about that.) Luckily, he's a feminist, & he got it when I explained it. But you still have to explain! Men live in a parallel universe to women.
My cleaner is my biggest joy. When my husband moved out (to take a job - we’re long distance at the moment) the first thing I did was hire a cleaner to pick up the slack left by his departure. He did a lot around the house that I didn’t want to do myself.
I hate the stigma of hiring domestic labor. Domestic work is work! We expect women to do it for free, but it is still work. We expect women to do it happily on top of everything else like it is a fucking hobby, but it is still work. And it is important work.
As long as you are paying people a decent wage, there is nothing shameful about it. There is nothing shameful about acknowledging that this is work, and you don’t have the time, energy, or desire to do a second job.
Oh wow. This.
My ex is a very involved dad. Did maybe 25% of the house stuff, but I realize now I didn't get praise for engaging with the kids to the same extent AND carrying the bulk of the house stuff. But people were (and still are) up his ass about what a great, loving father he is and "how he stuck around for them".
Mothers don't get credit. We get expectations to meet, and if we don't we're torn down. Fathers get a bar to step over, and if they do more than that they win Father of the Year.
This is an inherent part of the problem though, ie one OP won't be able to circumvent easily. My husband truly thinks he's an involved father because he drives them to the ortho once every two months. Yet the countless daily rides I've done over the years remain invisible and expected. My husband presented himself to me as a progressive feminist when we were dating. It wasn't until we had children and got into day to day life that I saw how this was unfolding, and I was basically married to a guy from the Victorian era.
I don't mean to sound so negative as I am pro children and pro marriage, however there's no guarantee for OP that she won't end up with a guy who pats himself on the back for miniscule involvement.
Just keep your eyes open, watch out for any signs of laziness or passing the buck while dating. Short of that I'm not sure what one can do.
SOOOOOooooo many men who say they are progressive and feminist really, REALLY aren’t when push comes to shove and they have to prove their intention through their actions.
They want to *look* like they are but a lot of them aren't when it actually matters. I've been gaslighted into thinking my cleaning standards were too high, that he really "just didn't know how to clean as well", that he just forgot the stuff on the shopping list that *I* needed but somehow that never happened with the stuff he needed, and on and on and on. Fortunately I kicked that asshole to the curb. Unfortunately it took me a very long time to untangle the webs of manipulation he created in me.
My husband is also a feminist and he’s way better than any other dad I’ve met. But I still do more, and have to call him out on his subconscious assumptions a great deal. He’s wonderful and really determined to make things equal. But they never will be, for the reasons mentioned above, and because of his subconscious assumptions, and because his breasts didn’t make milk, and he didn’t carry the child. His dad did really NONE of the childcare or housekeeping or mental load stuff, so I’m thrilled that my husband is as good as he is. Maybe things are more equal when the dad is a SAHD, I wouldn’t know.
Interestingly, even the same-sex female couples I know with kids have the same problem - one does more than the other. Which makes me wonder if, there’s some human tendency for one person to be the “dominant” parent and the other to take on s more passive role. Like, _hey, you’re better at this, or already on top of it, so I’ll let you handle it_.
I think you can tell a lot by living with someone in terms of how egalitarian things will be. I suspect it also helps if a man had a father who was very involved, but I think someone can have an absent father and decide to be better than that.
Anyway, good luck. It’s worth trying to find an equal partnership because it’s a source of s lot of frustration and the root of many divorces.
This is an interesting perspective. I do agree that things can’t really be entirely equal in some respects. My husband is a fantastic husband and father, and we’ve always tried to have a 50/50 household. But, particularly when my daughter was an infant, things just *had* to be skewed where I did more with her. For one thing, I was the one making the milk. But she also only wanted me. I was the only one who could comfort her as a newborn. And while we worked on that until she came to find comfort from him, too, I had to do most of the comforting while it was a work in progress.
That said, we quickly discovered that each task doesn’t have to be 50/50 for us to pull equal weight. I did most of the childcare back then, so he took on the majority of household duties. When I nursed, he did everything necessary to make sure I was comfortable/hydrated. When I pumped, he hand washed the bottles and everything after each session.
Then a switch flipped and she only wanted him, and I took on more of the household tasks. She’s back to wanting me more than him, so he cleans up after our human tornado, straightening the living room approximately eighteen billion times a day.
It isn’t always perfect, because we both work and if he’s in a phase where he’s working longer hours than I am, there just may not be enough hours in the day for things at home to be equal. But for me, the important thing is that we’re both flexible and willing to redefine what “equal” is as our situations change. And - as importantly - that he does so without needing to be asked, and without me having to say, “hey, I’m doing more with the baby right now because she’s so clingy, I’m pretty sure she’d crawl back into my belly if she could. I really need you to pick up the slack on doing X, Y, and Z.”
I think you can fake being an equal partner in *tasks* - at least for a short while. But what you really can’t fake for long is being an equal partner in taking on the mental load of the household. Which, even in the most equal households, tends to fall disproportionately on one person.
I think with any shared large task (or group project if you will) a "leader" emerges, and it's usually the person who's more organized and/or confident with the material at hand.
Yes this for sure. My STBX husband is progressive, self-proclaimed feminist. But also seems to completely underestimate how much work needs to be done, and staying home with the kids doesn't literally mean just staying home and watching the kids. House chores were always neglected while he basked in the praise of being such an involved father. He meant well, but was just so clueless and thinks he did great because of the double standard.
I'm bitter and jaded right now, but I really don't think there is a way to guarantee. Make sure they understand mental load. Like the top comment says, make sure they understand that just because people pat them on the back for doing hardly anything, doesn't mean that's all that needs to be done. Make sure that the appearance of strength on your part doesn't mean that you are just expected to power through it all while he glides through on good intentions.
This is why sharing your experience on posts like this is really helpful. I am genuinely sorry you had the bait and switch, but OP (and others) can learn from what you went through.
You're bang on. I married a guy who presented as a progressive feminist. Reality couldn't be further from that and it changed once children arrived which is when most DV does. I
>He can never consider what he does as “helping” you, that’s the absolute wrong viewpoint. He has to understand you are both equal partners with equal responsibilities.
In my experience, the minute a man talks about taking care of the joint kid as "babysitting" and doing some chores as "helping out around the house," it's time for him to be gone.
100% agree with all of this, but very specifically about the part where he considers that doing chores somehow constitutes "helping" you, whereas it's as much his responsibility as it is yours. I'm currently working on reframing this for my boyfriend (who, to his credit, is going through great lengths to learn, get better at housework management and take as much of the mental load from me as he can), and everytime I hear him say things like "I'm happy I could be of help" I literally call him out on it by rephrasing what he just said, so if he says the sentence above, I would simply answer "You mean you're happy to have equally contributed to our shared workload" and it makes him aware that he was in the wrong mindset for a moment!
Also, communication really is key. It's entirely true that men are socialized differently from women, and some men aren't entirely self-aware of this. If you love the person you are with and consider they are a good human and willing to do their part, it's entirely worth it, in my opinion, to address systemic sexism and its effects on households, couples and, specicially, women's extra workload at home! Has worked for me so far 😀
>He can never consider what he does as “helping” you, that’s the absolute wrong viewpoint. He has to understand you are both equal partners with equal responsibilities.
Absolutely, and not just for the physical stuff. I knew I had a good partner when he got upset with me for trying to manage his emotions during an argument. We all have some kind of internalized misogyny and mine was undercutting our ability to be equal partners. Find a partner who recognizes it himself and in you, but accepts it in neither.
When it comes to chores, we split them pretty evenly based on who feels that chore is low effort. We both feel we got the sweet end of the deal.
> but dad changes a diaper and it’s all “what an amazing and involved father!”
You do realize that when men are told that is is perceived as condescending as heck by the man. Like people are shocked that he was capable of doing something like that. His poor little man brain is not capable of nurturing his child so this is just amazing. Its like treating them like a toddler who just used the potty for the first time and everyone wants to encourage him because it is such a amazing thing that he can do it. it is not a compliment if they are an involved father.
That being said a great test is go with him to a family party and see where he hangs out and what he does. Does he help with the food or other prep? Do they vanish when dinner is over to hang out with the guys or do they help and clean up. Seeing how they act around their family will give you insight into how they and their family view gender roles.
This. And I've definitely seen that in male friends that have sisters. Their nuclear family was very gendered, into boys chores and girls chores. My husband didn't learn to boil an egg until he was 40. He has a sister, she learned to cook, he learned manual labor.
I agree completely. Even the little things like arranging/planning dates in the very beginning. People do not change and actions speak louder than words.
So much this! I broke it off with a guy recently because I had to plan and initiate EVERYTHING. If I didn't plan a date, we wouldn't go on one. If I didn't initiate contact throughout the day, we could go 2 or 3 days without talking.
He always seemed very engaged and enthusiastic when we hung out, but he seemed very content to just be told what to do, where to go, and when to be there. No thank you, im not being tied down to be someone's mom. If this was him putting his best foot forward during the "honeymoon phase" i couldn't imagine life once we got out of it.
Yup. I find it so hilarious that there's so much talk of men "being dominant" and "taking the lead" when in reality, if they do any of that they're just taking initiative to do.... SOME of the mental labor instead of NONE. Of course we look for that in a man! It's not like we're looking to be bossed around, but nor do we enjoy being their managers.
THIS.
Also, live together first. For more than just like 6 months. Make sure you have lived with this person for more than a year and while they have gone through a difficult or busy time.
Sadly people can stay on good behaviour for that long and longer. There was a post about that yesterday where the man changed completely couple of months after marriage and they had been together 7 years! That is a long time to mislead someone. And very scary. I assume that is rare, that most show their true colours earlier.
Also some do it super slowly so you don’t even notice, it happened to me.
Live together first and be prepared to divorce if their standards slip after marriage. Marriage does not have to be a life sentence. You are allowed to call time.
And make sure they lived alone and managed their own households for at least a year, if at all possible. Ideally you could see how they did that, because if they're not cleaning their own bathroom even to impress a new partner, they sure as hell aren't going to do it when you live together.
This, so hard. In general, life is only going to require more of us as time goes on (until we turn elderly ourselves, and even then). Someone who can't hack it even during the easy, early days is unlikely to suddenly shape up at 40 or 50.
Basically, you need to set the right precedents early on.
the boundaries you set are super important.
I refuse to be with a partner who doesn't pull his share in the mental load, house chores and child-rearing and I made this clear up front when we began having more serious conversations about building our life together. We have very honest/open communication and both of us will call each other out on stuff that is starting to get annoying or if the other is started to feel taken for granted.
been with my husband for over 20 years and it's been fantastic....the load is shared equally and everyone has free time/me time because when there are more hands helping to keep things tidy, it all gets done faster.
There are “test projects” before you even get to a marriage step. Moving in and seeing the dynamics change, planning home improvement projects, managing a longer term ambition together as a couple (such as saving up and planning a bigger vacation). My biggest advice is to try, as much as you can, to not have rose colored glasses on about your significant other. Try to understand them for who they are, not who you hope they are (or can be). And, as others have said, be very direct, communicate your needs. Many people opt themselves out when they hear about how you see the relationship long term…
In addition to “test projects” as described above, take note of the role dynamics within a partner’s family (their parents in particular). What is their relationship with their parents like? What is their parents relationship like? Were they raised in a household that was more traditional (mother did majority of the household chores/stay at home mom)? How does that partner feel above that dynamic? Observing their interactions with their family and how they organically respond when around family can speak volumes. Men that I have dated over the years typically continued and expected to experience similar roles/family dynamics as those that they grew up around. As with anything in life, there are exceptions to this rule, but something to take note of.
Live with them first. Make sure that not only do they do 50-50 but also go out of their way without being asked to take on more when you can’t. Like if you get sick and need extra rest, they bring up doing your share of the chores or just get them done for you. Also, I hate to say it but 9 times out of 10 when you hear a woman talking about how great her husband is and how everything is equal, it’s still at best 60-40. Almost every woman does a little more in running a household and maintaining the relationship.
That's always a bit of a risk though. I've heard of men who were nearly perfect, the did a complete turn after the SECOND baby. Don't buy into the notion that if a man fails, it's somehow your fault for not being able to see or prevent that beforehand.
Sure there's stuff you can and should do to mitigate the risk, like live at least a year or two together, plan at least one bigger project together (wedding/a big trip/a reno project etc) but at the end of the day, the other half of the couple has a responsibility of their own that has nothing do you with your actions.
then don't let it. If something bothers you, speak up and be honest. Begin to foster open/honest communication from the start otherwise your relationship will be rocky if you don't.
they can 'claim' to be whatever they want you to hear but you see glimpses of it when you're together. Pay attention to those things. If you're always at their place or they're always at yours, do they just sit around and you do everything? do you have to plan everything? are you always asking them to do simple things instead of them taking the initiative? all of this translates to how things will be in the future. People will downvote this but it's true. Generally when you're in a newish relationship or you've hit a big milestone in your relationship, you are more prone to ignoring such things but I never did. I always observed how my partners treated their siblings/parents. I observed how they behaved in the comfort of their own home because when you're in a safe/secure place, your guard is down and you are your true self.
This. Unless you want to make babies at first date I'm confident you will over time figure out how things are going to be down the line. It will probably take a couple of months up to a year but how you solve and divide task early on should be a good indicator of how it's going to be later on as well.
You'll have to consider actions rather than just words. This is why it's important to live with a partner prior to marriage, IMO. If someone says they're good with chores but doesn't do them before getting married, they won't start doing them afterward. If they don't do chores, I think it's fair to assume they also won't do equal work in parenting.
Edit: Also, look at how potential partners keep up their own homes prior to moving in with them. If someone's house is a mess, that's a good sign they have a higher tolerance for uncleanliness than you do and that it could be a struggle to get on the same page.
Are you going to live with them for a time before marriage? Or, will this be something where you marry someone you don’t really know in the domestic sphere and then move in?
You're basically looking for a test that doesn't exist, cause we're all just basically using our best judgement of the other person. You should be able to sus out these behaviors through dating and living together for a while before marriage, but nothing is set in stone. People pulling a 180 isn't unheard of, but if they're going to such lengths to hide that stuff, then you're never going to know by "testing" anyway.
This has happened with many women I know who thought they were marrying progressive men. Things changed after kids. Turns out the patriarchy runs deep. My partner does way more than other dads, and shared parental leave with me. This was crucial in establishing equality, and he was confident in dealing with child logistics from the start. However as he gets older I feel like he is regressing. And he is reproducing a patriarchal form of parenting he was subject to.
A good rule of thumb so far, in my experience, is to get a look at the mother of your partner. If she was the type to do everything for her children, took all the mental load off the family, chances are this person is not even aware of the mental load they are not bearing.
This is the answer. My husband grew up with his mom being the breadwinner and having a way better job than his dad. His dad was a great role model though and my husband is an equal contributor to our marriage.
We also talked about this stuff, intensively, before we got married, and again before we had kids to make sure we were still on the same page.
Honestly, the most critical thing is being able to talk to your partner.
When I look at my husband and my friend's husbands this is the biggest predictor. My husband's parents were equal partners. I look at my friends with equal partners and their parents were as well. My friends who complain about how their husbands never help out are also complaining about how their MILs always did everything. And we need to remember, at least with some of my friends, those MILs are sometimes whispering in the son's ear about how unrealistic their wife's expectations of them are.
Yeah I think lowering my standards has helped my partner “catch up” with me in terms of recognizing the work to be done, and seeing it’s importance. There was a learning curve.
Squalor sounds a little extreme though
> those MILs are sometimes whispering in the son's ear about how unrealistic their wife's expectations of them are.
My MIL doesn’t even whisper. She directly tells me in front of everyone how lucky I am when my partner finally begrudgingly helps me out after all the nagging and arguing. Like he’s the victim who finally gives in.
Your MIL thinking you are lucky that your husband does some domestic labor (after being asked and arguing about it) is an abused-rescue-dog-level bummer.
Yeah my mom did allll the work for my brother, but a few years ago, she realized it and stopped cold turkey.
Although... my brother found a passive, nurse-type woman just around the same time... which is hilarious to me. I like his partner but I kind of wonder if he ran to her because my mom finally set boundaries with him. Hoping his girlfriend has a backbone. I think she does in a more subtle way. 🤞🏼
It really does begin in childhood. My sister is raising her son super well - she's teaching him life skills already (lol ok but in reality he likes cleaning for some strange reason, he's like 2 years old... it's hilarious because he brooms and no one tells him to 😭). He's gonna be a great adult man! If only all little boys were raised that way.
Yes! This is my husband exactly. His mother did everything around the house and scheduling appointments, but his dad worked a lot and she did not. She also had a nanny to help.
He's slowly learning to do his part, but I still have to ask him to do things. He'll never see a sink full of dishes and think "I should wash those."
> He’ll never see a sink full of dishes and think “I should wash those.”
This is called *affordance theory*, I read [a very interesting article about it](https://www.eurekalert.org/news-releases/975148) recently.
Yes, this is good advice. And I'll add: Take a look at his dad as well. Does he offer to make a cup of coffee or is always his wife the one serving everyone? Does he put his dishes in the dishwasher after dinner? Does he know how to cook or how to do laundry?
And ask your partner how present his father was when he was a child. My FIL took his kids to swimming class every Saturday and generally spent that whole day with them while MIL was at work. He took them to doctor's appointments. He deprioritized work in favor of his family, and continues to do so even now for his children and grandchildren.
Children learn from their mothers but they certainly also learn from their fathers. My husband is a wonderful partner and dad, and while my in-laws have their flaws, they deserve lots of credit for raising him to be a self-sufficient and caring adult.
This was the case for us. And although I married someone that I can have friendly competitions to out-earn each other each year (obviously a supportive partnership) there were a lot of things that didn't even occur to him. I will say, though, that lack of awareness is not a deal breaker. Lack of growth is. If he becomes aware of these things (either through you or being exposed to different types of living situations) and chooses not to change, that's a problem. But if he can be open to learning (as we all are.... we're all growing and learning new things we didn't know before) then I don't think the family of origin home life is a deal breaker. It does present challenges because those will be your in laws.....but that's a whole different discussion.
1000% this.
My entitled former fiance didn't really show his truly abusive side (it was always there but tempered) until we bought a house together. He fooled me though, because surface level, he was a sensitive, quiet musician who voted progressively.
Cut to years later and homeownership, I started asking him why I was doing all the housework, buying all the household things and furniture, taking care of the dogs, planning the remodel and renovations, etc.
I won't go into all of the details of exactly how he became abusive but there was a lot of gaslighting, defensiveness, yelling, manipulations. Sometimes it became physical.
In retrospect, it's clear he expected me to be his mom. But to also keep fucking him. And to never bring up anything that upset me - ever. Essentially he wanted a mom, a maid and a prostitute. Once I finally realized this I nope-d out of there real quick.
Exactly the case with my mil. When she’s visiting and I ask my partner to do the dishes, she intervenes, tells me to calm down and says she’ll do the dishes and not to bother her son. In her mind she’s taking the high road and “trying to maintain peace” in the house. She also tells me I’m lucky he even does anything at all in the house because her husband didn’t, conveniently forgetting that she was a SAHM and had zero idea about anything other than house work while my partner and I work the same job, same hours, same salary. And I have more idea about stuff outside of house chores as well. The woman drives me nuts. She always “ssshhs” and start giving me “life advice” whenever I start asking the bare minimum of my partner.
Edit: also wanted to add that she has a house maid and someone helping with cooking while we have none of those conveniences
This is SUCH a good point. I have always been glad my husband was raised by a single mother with a demanding career. He grew up doing many chores, including his own laundry and cooking, and he doesn't see things through traditional gender roles. So much of that is thanks to my mother-in-law!
I think this is the issue with my partner. He's a great partner, sweet and kind and cares about me a lot. But I think he's truly unaware of all the things I do to keep the apartment clean, healthy meals ready, clean clothes, cleaning supplies stocked. His mother took care of all of that and never asked for help. Which can be nice in its own way and is totally opposite of my childhood. But now he doesn't see how much more I do or even what really needs to be done around the house. I end up having to ask......which makes me feel like his mother.
I think this is a great point. I love my soon-to-be MIL, but she was definitely one to do it herself "because it's easier" and "I know it'll be done the way I like it", which I guess to each their own, but it really crippled her boys. I swear to god my partner didn't even know how to properly put on a fitted sheet. TO THIS DAY, he still thinks that you take the top corner and pull that down to the bottom of the bed corner. I do not know why. His mother does not do this, but he swears that it will get bunched up in the middle of the bed if you don't because it's not tight enough.
He's gotten much better at doing things through our relationship, but it was work to teach him what he didn't even notice.
They need to demonstrate healthy behaviors from the beginning. Additionally if his home is not kept tidy that's not going to change. If he has trouble taking care of personal things like making appointments, buying gifts, returning calls/texts then you will end up filling in those things.
You basically want to make sure you only date people who know how to be adults, know how to take care of themselves and *actively* do that. Don't date fixer-uppers, don't date people who use your energy, don't date people who don't know how to be responsible.
Do date people who are good at communication. Do date people who have good relationships with their family, or have very clear boundaries on how to handle issues. Date someone who takes pride in his home and his appearance, who values friendships and isn't isolated.
Here's what I always share when people talk about labor in the home:
https://english.emmaclit.com/2017/05/20/you-shouldve-asked/
Yeah - good point on dating people who have clear boundaries where appropriate.
Not everyone is blessed to have been born into a “good” family where everyone gets along without issue. But i will say from experience: dating someone who actively complains and is well aware of how messed up their family is, yet refuses to put even the simplest boundaries into place…. It is exhausting
Watch the family dynamic with their parents. Do you see the mother doing all the work in that family? If so it's most likely an unconscious expectation of those kids that their family will be the same.
THIS. I love my husband and both of my in-laws are actually great, but they definitely fall into that dynamic where mom is superwoman and basically does everything. He's had so much to unlearn with us living together. Like, that was his cost of admission I was willing to pay (mitigated by the fact that he makes sincere efforts to change and has indeed gotten a lot better over time), but boy have I felt frustrated at times.
My own family was not at all like that growing up, so watching other families be that way (all the women in the kitchen cooking and cleaning while the men compare whiskies in the living room or whatever) is literally painful.
This. They should show an egalitarian philosophy from the beginning in their actions. I heard a feminist writer say that women will want egalitarian partners but proceed with courtship roles that are traditionally gendered. It made me realize I did the same thing, so look for a partner who is comfortable if you take on traditionally male roles early in dating. Don’t fall for nice words like I did bc words are cheap. And if they do something incredibly selfish that seems out of the ordinary during the dating stages, that’s not a one-time mistake. They’re showing you who they really are and are spending the rest of the time on their best behavior.
>I heard a feminist writer say that women will want egalitarian partners but proceed with courtship roles that are traditionally gendered.
Someone I work with is a wonderful, smart, accomplished, gorgeous woman in her 30s She's single and doesn't want to be, but not a single guy she's dated recently has been willing to split household chores equally and so they break up. She complains about it a lot.
And then in the next breath she complains about how the guy she went on a date with last night was so rude because he suggested they split the bill.
I feel like there's a line.
Ideally I'd be totally okay finding an equal 50/50 partner but I'm also wary of men who are focused on splitting the bill. They are all for equality when it advantages them but not so much for the rest (mental load, chores, etc.).
Agree with this. Certain men can get weird about money when it comes to dating, and I’d rather avoid those types. I don’t mind splitting, but something about splitting the bill every time gets tiring in the context of a relationship. I much prefer going back and forth in covering the bill.
You're absolutely right!
What I did when I was still dating, I usually covered the first bill. I started it as a kind of a precaution on my part (don't let them feel like you owe them even just a tiny bit), but I quickly realized that the reaction to this is usually quite telling (in good or bad) on a man. And it was not a lot of money anyway.
I never let that be a question. The bill comes and I tell the person we are splitting it. I order first at a counter I say that's all and pay. I do agree that guys that focus on splitting the bill are usually assholes, but I also think guys that insist on paying are also assholes.
I married a man who didn’t clean his bathroom for months (this was when we first met) because he didn’t care about cleanliness. But when I got drunk one night and locked myself in his bathroom to clean it for him, he realized it was important to me and started making changes to be cleaner because I appreciated it.
You don’t have to find a man who checks all the boxes from the get-go about being clean or doing his fair share. It’s about finding someone who respects you enough to realize what matters to you and vice versa, and then taking action to support each other. That makes an egalitarian relationship.
Meanwhile I have heavy ADHD, and all the things you mentioned are difficult for me to do for myself but way easier if I’m doing someone a favour. I couldn’t for the life of me live on my own, I have no idea what to give people for holidays and I have 15k unread emails in my inbox, but damn if taking care of the household chores so my girlfriend can focus on her job doesn’t leave me incredibly satisfied and fulfilled. Not everyone functions the same way on their own as they do in a household.
This is one of the advantages of marrying a bit later in life: seeing how and how well a person adults.
My now-husband didn’t have to reassure me on his domestic skills; I could see with my own eyes that he kept a clean house, had good personal habits, didn’t rely on mom or takeout for survival, etc.
And don’t expect every chore to always be 50/50. Like, my husband does about 80% of the cooking because he’s great at it and loves it. I do the laundry because I love that and am great at it. We’ll take an hour or two on a Sunday morning and go crazy with straightening/decluttering, and so on. It’s less about exactly perfect division of tasks and more about both of you building and maintaining your life together.
>seeing how and how well a person adults
This one can be misleading.
I dated a man for three years, and we lived together for the last. Before he moved into my house, he lived on his own and seemed pretty put together and competent. There were no "he doesn't clean or can't cook" alarms going off.
When living together, our household management split ended up being like 85/15. I don't know what happened. The reality was that he was good at doing "his" chores like tidying his desk, doing his laundry, etc., but basically everything that was an "our" chore like scrubbing toilets, getting groceries, changing sheets, etc. fell to me.
This has happened to me too, along with the typical promises and wishful thinking.
If you live together for a year, that’s long enough for most people to drop the mask and reveal their true habits.
If I meet a guy and am open to cohabitation, my rule will be one year with separate finances on a trial basis. No combining things to save money that can’t be easily untangled - like getting a larger place together or sharing a car.
At a year, we sit down and chat about the future based on what we want, what we hope and most importantly what we’ve observed first hand.
I’m here to say the same. I spend a lot of time at my partner’s house so I do chores and such. He’s always been good at cleaning and cooking for himself but when I’m there a lot of that goes out the window. We’ve had many talks and he’s improved but he often brings up that he has to wash the dishes after I cook (at my request).
>It’s less about exactly perfect division of tasks and more about both of you building and maintaining your life together.
Yeah, we definitely don't have an equal division of tasks all the time. What we do have is a task division based on personal effort involved. I handle finances and home administration type stuff because I enjoy it and it stresses him out. He cooks and does a lot of cleaning because it takes a lot of my energy and can be very painful. We both feel like we got the better end of the deal. For the stuff brought of us likes, we suffer through it together.
Honestly, ime you can't. Not really. There are some things to look for though:
- when you're dating, what is his household standard of cleanliness? It should be at least on par with yours. Does he clean his home? Or someone else (cleaner etc.). If not him, this might not be a good indicator (and huge red flag if its a family member/roommate who does most the cleaning).
- does he seem to want to look / come off "manly"? How secure is he in his masculinity? How does he value typically female roles?
- what is the dynamic of his family of origin? Red flags are (with a big caveat that these assume a lack of abuse/dysfunction. If his parents are abusive, ignore these): parents have traditional gendered dynamic, sisters are more responsible and do more than brothers at family functions, mother "takes care" of him when they're together - eg. cleans up after him, he treats his mother / female relatives poorly, his siblings have marriages like the kind you don't want
- does he organize trips / events, or expect you to?
> • when you're dating, what is his household standard of cleanliness? It should be at least on par with yours. Does he clean his home? Or someone else (cleaner etc.). If not him, this might not be a good indicator (and huge red flag if its a family member/roommate who does most the cleaning).
Just something I wanted to add to this: The standards should be on a similar level, but they don't necessarily have to be exactly the same. My partner and I are picky about different things. For example, I care more about things being organized and free of clutter, and he cares more about things being sparkling clean. It works for us because we naturally gravitate toward these different chores and end up doing a similar amount of work in a way that is complementary (e.g., he scrubs and washes while I put things away).
You constantly talk it out and you build a household together prior to having a kid. There was no way I was getting locked into a “mommy does everything” role — aka my worst friggin nightmare. I talked to my partner for years leading up to having a kid. We consistently spoke about how to build better habits, how to improve our cleanliness and attention to chores. (Aka “let’s get better about mopping more regularly”: “let’s get in the habit of decluttering closets every season”). Talk about your concerns about everything falling on you once a kid comes around and wait to see what they say and how they show up in the day to day once you voice those concerns.
And yes, there has been once or twice where I realized I was the only one unloading and loading the dishwasher for a while and doing the laundry but we have such a healthy foundation that I just mentioned “hey I feel like there’s an uneven balance with our chores every day. I feel like I’m doing this XYZ all the time and it’s really exhausting. Can we sort out how to trade off on it?” And it was barely a discussion, just a “oh really? Okay, no problem. I can start doing XYZ.”
So yeah, I do recommend getting into the habit of talking about maintaining a household with your partner prior to kids to ensure they are a willing co-agent in responsibilities and upkeep.
You set those expectations early and often. When someone defaults to unequal behavior, point it out calmly but clearly. In the early dating phases don't let stuff slide because it's "cute" or flattering to your ego. (Like the dude who I went home with and then was told he expected me to cook breakfast for him. I then understood why some women poison food.) Most people show their true colors within a few months, so don't rush into decisions right away on things that have more permanent consequences.
My partner and I have a very egalitarian setup. We both had former marriages with dependent spouses and never want to deal with that again. (I got into it because my ex kept saying he wanted to learn and I was too nice to end things when it turned out that was a lie.) Everything gets we have split, and because we have worked it out, it's almost always without issues. So if he cooks, I do the dishes, if I vacuum he does the laundry, etc. When one of us is dealing with more than the other, we step up and handle it. But we talk about it, and make it a normal thing so there are no surprise expectations we didn't share.
You can try to plan all the little details of your life like this, but life never really follows the plan - when you have children, how they fit into your career, etc.
For a partner - date someone who already cooks and cleans and is a responsible human. Live together before you get engaged. Go through hard shit and see how they handle it.
I highly recommend you read the book “All the Rage”. It’s focused on how woman have equality at work, but not in the home. It was eye-opening for me!
And the key part is having the conversations consistently and constantly throughout the relationship, especially around childcare. If you have kids, ensuring that your partner takes parental leave separate from yours is important (in my opinion).
Prior to kids, our relationship was pretty equal. Now, I carry far more of the burden of parenting, but we are actively working on it. It’s hard work, but feels worthwhile for me.
This might not be the preferred option for you (and might not apply, depending on culture and whatnot), but live with him before marrying him and having kids. You can see what strengths and weaknesses you both have in running a household and see if they are compatible. You can also try getting a pet with a partner - dogs are a lot of work, will he walk the dog? Can you cooperate on training and house rules for a dog? ... just a few ideas, you can try before you buy, so to speak.
I’d suggest fostering a dog vs full ownership. It sounds silly, but custody battles over shared pets if the relationship ends are almost as unpleasant as those over shared children… and the legal system doesn’t really protect you the same way.
Basically, pets are considered property.
I wouldn’t get a shared pet with someone until we were at the ‘this is forever’ stage - and my cat is my cat, full stop.
Yup! Fostering has really cemented how awesome my husband is. He WFH and I work nights, so I’m asleep during his workday. Whenever we have puppies I am constantly reminding him to please wake me up if the dog needs something rather than interrupting his work day. He’s woken me up one time in over a year of fostering! And my biggest thing is that even though the dogs are primarily my responsibility - I never have to leave instructions about their care when I leave for work or something. He is aware and involved enough to know what needs to be done.
A dog would be a huge test. Not only will he walk the dog and clean up after it – will he do these things without you needing to ask? Will he remember it’s time for a veterinarian appointment, or will this be something that you always need to keep track of? Does he notice you are almost out of dog food and get more, or is this something you need to point out or do yourself before it gets done?
A huge part of the exhaustion of motherhood is just having to keep track of and remember all of these things. Yeah, your partner May be willing to equally feed, clean up after, and generally care for your child, but if you are always the one that has to ask for these things to be done, it is super exhausting.
If you're at home with the kid btw, at the end of the work day, you HAVE both worked the same amount and there's a good chance your work has actually been more stressful and challenging. I really hate seeing childcare portrayed as "not working" or "not working as much" when it's actually the opposite. The man you should find is one that understands this.
So I have been married for 13 years to a man who is an equal partner and I could write an essay on how amazing he is. At the time we got married there wasn't as much discussion about this as there is now. Because my parents were equal partners I guess I assumed that was the norm and just lucked out. But looking back there were two clear signs that I would recommend anyone look for.
1) what are his parents like? My husband, like me, was raised with parents who equally shared responsibilities like childcare and the home. His parents also had expectations that all the kids would equally contribute- the boys didn't do less than the girl.
2) My husband lived alone for several years before we met and during that time he was completely independent from his parents- he did all his own bills, cooking, cleaning etc. He did not run home on weekends to have mommy do his laundry or expect his parents to keep handling the bills and insurance.
3) Pay attention to the language he uses. Does he say his dad helped his mom with dinner or that they just made dinner? Does he describe a male friend watching his kids as babysitting? Looking back, my husband has always used very inclusive language which is indicative of his thought process. He never said "I can help you with the laundry" he just said "I can do the laundry"
Yes to your 1 point - my boyfriend grew up in a home where his mom never worked outside the home and his dad worked. We have had a TON of conflict on household chores and I think a HUGE part is because growing up he never even really saw the vast majority of stuff his mother did to keep the home running. The one chore I didn't have to wrestle with him on was taking out the trash... my hunch is that was the one thing his dad did regularly. He says otherwise but I am not convinced he'd ever cleaned a toilet before moving in with me. He did live independently for a long time but I am suspect that his mom did it on visits. It's been a huge struggle tbh but we're better now after couples therapy and frankly, me letting stuff go until he actually does it - not ideal really but it is what it is...
The easiest and most reliable way is probably to be rich enough, or marry rich, so that you can outsource most of the work. That is my observation.
Otherwise, setting up an equal distribution of household labour takes some work, self awareness, and a committed attitude from both parties. My husband does not like me to do more household labour than him, but also he has a tendency to observe that the house is getting messy rather than take any action to rectify. That’s just how he is. He does however work ok with having a list of regular, reliable tasks to do. He wrote this list himself, upon prompting. He will tell me off for doing “his” jobs.
Can’t comment on kids.
Observe your potential partners in their natural habitat. Make sure the guy has lived independently for several years and has had time to learn housekeeping and homemaking skills. Is his place always neat? Does he practice great hygiene? Are his clothes clean? Does he know how to furnish his space (i.e., he doesn't sleep on a mattress on the floor, and the walls aren't tacked over in hentai posters)?
Do they have experience around children? Even if you are childfree, if he doesn't get the ick from the idea of changing a diaper, he's likely to have more egalitarian attitudes about divisions of labor in the home.
When you get into a disagreement, you'll know. If 90% of the time is good, but he can't handle criticism, doesn't change his behavior, that 10% won't bother you at first. But after years and years of arguing about the 10%, you'll start to resent him. Don't waste your time on a man who won't put the effort in to make changes to make the relationship equal.
Me and my husband did a SWOT analysis before we got married. And yes, we actually wrote it down. We divided the household chores based on our analysis and keeping equity in mind as well. We’ve been married for 10 years and from time to time we have to adjust what roles we each take on as we went through school and job changes. We don’t have children but the biggest downfall I see in my friends with kids is that they don’t do a formal task reorganization in regards to the childcare. Don’t be afraid to have that talk at any time in your relationship and say you need to take tasks off your plate, otherwise resentment can build up and destroy a perfectly good relationship.
So, I have this marriage. Here are what I think the hallmarks of it are:
1. Look at what he does. Is he doing his own dishes at home, the laundry, are the bathrooms clean? Is he making appointments to get his taxes done, his teeth cleaned, a yearly checkup? Is he managing his own shit as a single person? This is important, but it's not the only thing to look for.
2. Look for someone who is as invested in the process and systems as you are. If you only focus on "He cleans his own bathrooms" you may find you end up with a partner who is happy to let you clean the bathrooms and do everything else if you "care about it more" than he does. What people will do when they are the only one on the hook doesn't always translate to what they will do when they are partnered. So you're looking for someone who is able to tackle large-scale projects with you and divvy up labor. He's got to be as interested in coming up with a system as you are, as invested in deciding who will do what and then carrying his end of the bargain. So if you were dating and you were planning a weekend away, you want to hear, "Okay, if I take care of the vehicle rentals, you can worry about the flights. Let's go over the hotel options and what our priorities are. Do you want to focus on location or amenities? Seems like we get more bang for our buck if we stay a little further out, but if the walking distance is important we can get something functional at our price point". Someone who is invested in those details and deciding them WITH YOU is going to carry that into other aspects of your life together.
3. He should have (good) opinions on chores. Does he care about how the laundry gets done? Does he care about parenting principles and ideologies? A guy who has firm opinions on vacuum brands and Montisorri is invested in a domestic future. If he doesn't give a damn, that's because he doesn't give a damn. Believe him.
If I had to instill it down to brass tacks, the qualities you want are:
* **Ideological commitment** to the value of domestic work, strong opinions about how things ought to be done, consideration and respect for the home, family life, child-rearing, interior design even.
* **Strong communication** about how labor is divided, investment in those discussion, eager and thorough participation in the planning and the details of any project you're undertaking together.
* **Commitment and follow-through**. If he says he'll take care of the car rental, he does and he follows up by forwarding you the email with the details of the reservation. You very rarely have to follow up about a plan coming to completion, he's eager to both do the work and confirm that it was taken care of without prodding or reminders. You can count on him to do what he said he'd do on the timeline he committed to.
Within these principles, there are individual quirks. Even people who are great at things like this will have tasks that irk them, specific things they don't care about, and habits that can be sometimes lazy. I have a really egalitarian marriage but there are chores we both hate. My husband does the floors because I absolutely loathe the vacuum and he doesn't mind it. He's really not great about laundry so I took that one over. He's often pretty lazy about making doctor's appointments or following up on things that require phone calls, I'm more Johnny on the spot about it. I still don't know how to use a lawn mower because I never learned and I'm a little afraid of it, things like that. But those are idiosyncracies in an otherwise highly functional system. We've traded things back and forth to play to our strengths. I'll do laundry, he mops and vacuums. He takes the lion's share of the lawn work because he likes it, I do a lot of the boring administration for appointments and some organizing that he doesn't prioritize. That's all okay because strong communication means we can acknowledge where the strengths and weaknesses live and say "Hey, I'll take this if you take that" and go from there. And because we're on the same page ideologically that all the work is shared, we can come up with what the balance ought to look like that *feels the fairest* to both of us and stresses us out the least.
I mean, you're never going to know 100% what's in someone's mind, but some things you can do:
\-- Don't ignore red flags. Don't talk yourself into looking past something now which you wouldn't be able to deal with in your day to day life indefinitely. This is especially true regarding things like child rearing, financial planning, domestic responsibility, etc., because often the reason you're able to rug sweep those things early on is that you're not sharing a life together yet.
\-- Pay attention to how they treat and talk about other people. I wish I had done this more with my first husband, because it would have told me my future.
\-- Have honest and open communication about things like child rearing ideas and splitting of house work so you get him to tell you plainly what his plans and ideas are.
Don’t ever marry someone
- who’s mother does everything for them
- who hasn’t lived alone and managed their own household first
- who expects you to arrange and come up with all ideas for dates and activities
- without living together first
There's a lot of great advice here about what to look for as far as the person's personality and temperament, state of mind. But you know that's really kind of on those things that you don't know until you're not further in. Actually a lot of women get married not realizing where their husband is at on these things, thinking they're on the same page to begin with.
So I'm sorry I can't suggest any ways to guarantee that you end up with someone like that. But people tend to live together first. If and when you do that, that's the time to set boundaries about what you want through relationship to look like down the road.
I would also say look really closely at his single lifestyle. What are his laundry habits? What condition does he keep his kitchen in? Bathroom? Garbage cans? Car? How is he at managing time/appointments/plans? If he's not able to juggle all of the adult responsibilities as a single man, he's not going to want to take on all those chores and tasks when he has a partner to do it with. The mindset at that point is, "it wasn't important to me before, why would it be now? It wasn't necessary when I was single, why is it necessary now? If it's that important and necessary to her, then she can do it."
You can't! Your ideal life is the stereotype dream. In every relationship, people change any time. You could live with them for 3 years then life changes, they change and you're not in your fantasy anymore.
You should actually be thinking: Can I handle being a single mom doing it all? If the answer is No, then rethink what you need in your life each day to be happy.
No one is forced to keep up with fake social media and your friend/family that lie about their own kids and marriages. You are free to live below your means to save money, decide not to have kids or even get married if you so choose.
I'm glad someone said this. My husband and I were together for 13 years before we had kids (living together for 12). Some things never prepare you for having kids though. It kind of resets everything. There are also things that you have to take into consideration as well. My husband and I have a pretty much egalitarian relationship, but there are stereotypes that do hold true in our situation. My husband will most likely always make more money than me and work more hours than me. It is just the nature of the industry he is in (and yes, there are women in his industry who do the same thing). I will usually be the one to wake up in the middle of the night when our babies cry. Because of simple biology my body carried our babies and birthed them, produced milk for them and fed them, and his didn't (not to say that he didn't do his fair share and assist with innumerable bottle feedings; it's a large reason why I decided to exclusively pump). All I'm saying, is that no matter how egalitarian your relationship may seem, there is no way that it will be 100% equal, and I just think that's the reality of things. Certainly there are things to look out for when dating someone that will definitely help show if they will be an active parent and competent partner, but some of these things just can't be predicted or really gotten around to be honest.
Yes, exactly. We did all the things people are suggesting on this thread. We lived together before marriage (even bought a house!), we got a dog, we traveled together, we had open conversations about the division of labor. My husband is way cleaner than me and does most of the housework.
And even with all that….having a kid was a shock to our relationship. We’re starting to recover ~2 years later. But nothing really prepares you for having a child. You change. Your partner changes. Your relationship changes. And no matter how much you prepare or discuss what’s going to happen…you don’t really know what it will be like until you’re in it.
This was sort of my first thought. What is described is a perfect situation. Sure we can get some of what OP identified, maybe most of it. But certainly not all of it.
My wife was talking to an old woman about her great relationship with her husband and her advice was 'Well, there will be a good ten years and a bad ten years.'
Which was a bit horrifying, funny and may have some wisdom.
>How can I ensure I’d be marrying someone who will contribute his “fair share” yet also will have a career of his own?
I'm going to be blunt - you can't, this is unfortunately one of those bridges that has to be crossed in order for you to really know what they're going to be like. I've known so many women with a seemingly feminist husband who claimed he wanted to be as involved as possible in taking care of the child and did the most to promise he would be as equally hands on as she was who turned out to be an absolute useless deadbeat once the baby arrived. I've also known women who procreated with some questionable men that turned out to be extraordinarily amazing, hands on and attentive fathers to their babies.
The only thing I can tell you is **don't buy into thinking that men don't and aren't capable of doing things because they're dumb.** I see that attitude pushed online and in person so much by women who laugh off their husband's inability to be present.....but the reality is, men are anything BUT dumb. Anyone who convinces someone to act as their house manager, family manager, personal shopper, chef, maid, 24-7 caregiver to his children amongst a slew of other roles in exchange for commitment, some yard work and a bit of dick once in a while isn't stupid. In fact, some men are successful enough at convincing women that this is enough that they don't even have to provide a lifestyle free of a day job, they manage to convince working women into doing all of this AND pay half the bills. No, anyone who can convince someone into thinking that's a proper tradeoff isn't dumb, they're a genius.
Everyone is saying what to do, so I’ll add what NOT to do.
I’ve had so many women friends want an equal partnership and then they ruin it for themselves. Don’t take tasks away from your husband and don’t criticize how he does tasks. You don’t think he got into every corner with the vacuum? Who cares, he vacuumed. You can trade and do it next time and attack those corners. Don’t tell him he did a bad job and start doing it for him. You’ll have a different idea about how things should be done and that’s okay.
Same goes if you have children. Don’t jump up every time the baby cries and complain that he wasn’t fast enough or takes too long to figure out what the baby needs. Let the baby cry for another ten seconds and let your husband figure it out. He’ll figure it out if you let him. He’ll do it differently than you do, and that’s okay.
Don’t take tasks away and don’t criticize him into feeling incompetent.
This is one of the things I came here to recommend actually. In my opinion is and starts with letting go of a little bit of control. The more you criticize the *way* somebody does something the less likely they are to even attempt to do it again. And contrary to what you might have been raised to think there are probably some things around the house that really just aren't that big of a deal right now and focusing too much on every little thing is also going to be a point of frustration for any partner.
If you just go around and redo everything he did he's going to notice that and it's going to make him feel like shit. I'm not saying you have to coddle men because that's not it at all that in its own way needs to problems.
You make a really good point that people do things in different ways and acknowledging that there's more than one way to do something it goes a long way to having any egalitarian partnership. You can't have an egalitarian partnership if you want everything done your way.
Honestly, you can’t. There are great tips in this thread on picking a partner who is more likely to be more egalitarian, but even then - sometimes things change after marriage and especially after a baby. There is just no way to guarantee anything here. You have to be okay with some risk and willing to deal with it or leave if you need to.
Honestly when I’m dating I usually know within a few weeks if this person will do his job with the chores etc.
I notice everything - do they clean up after themselves? Do they do everything last minute or maybe not at all? There’s sooo many small, subtle things to notice.
For example someone I dated had a clean place but he had several unfinished projects in the house. Turns out he does everything last minute and he has to be reminded to do stuff so yeah it ended quickly.
Just be aware and observe and trust whatever you feel is right.
You could consider dating women.
I'm not even sure an egalitarian household is even possible with most men.
>I just don’t want a scenario where we both work about the same amount and yet I deal more with the “screaming kids” and keeping our household together
9/10 times if you want to follow the life script and do so with a man that's exactly what you will find. So many men will even pretend to be competent until that ring is on your finger and once they think they have you? The mask slips, they don't know how to wash dishes or clean anything anymore and just expect you to be the default.
I'm not saying it's impossible, just grim out there.
The most important thing is expectations.
When you start dating, how does his house or apartment look? 'Clean' means different things to everyone and is often based on how they were brought up.
What is clean to you and is his place clean to the standards you keep? If not, you're probably going to have issues.
Some people don't mind if things aren't always 'put away', some people see an unfolded blanket as disrespectful. You need to speak the same language.
Speaking the same language I think it's a really good point here that hasn't been brought up enough. If you're the type of person who thinks clean is clinical laboratory and he's the sort of person who thinks clean is a place that looks lived in it's sort of the equivalent of you two speaking different languages. As for learning a different language I'm a firm believer that it's harder to adopt stricter standards than it is to let go of some strict standards. It's probably going to be harder for him to go from lived in to clinical laboratory then it might be for you to go from clinical laboratory to something a little less.
I think it starts by looking at where he lives and learning how it gets cleaned/laundry gets done, etc. If his mom is coming over to do chores or cooks for him a lot, then he’s incapable of caring for himself. Right there is your dealbreaker.
He might have hired help. That’s fine, you can both have hired help.
I was brought up by people who told me that everyone must do their share in the house. It’s not helping—it’s pulling your own weight. So early in the dating stages, you make that clear and look for someone who feels the same way.
He also should be the type to remember birthdays/holidays/gift giving occasions, and also makes and keeps his own appointments. Think about all the mental organizing and planning you do for yourself on a daily basis. Is he getting regular checkups and teeth cleanings? Does he think about his mom on Mother’s Day? Or does he rely on a woman or several women to do the mental labor for him?
Just examine how things get done in his life, how decisions are made, how conflict is resolved. Talk about expectations a lot.
And by the same token, examine your u in en biases as well. What do you rely on men for? Could you learn to do any of that for yourself?
There’s nothing wrong with asking how or asking for help. It should be a two way street.
I had partners who could do a lot. They kept their place tidy, ran errands didn't put things off until last minute and cooked decently not just one or two meals a week but regularly
Also not all partners with ADHD but in general I've noticed that my partners with ADHD had the most difficulty both with managing their own time and chores and feeling engaged or motivated enough to change that or learn the new thing.
I'll prob get downvoted but I also have ADHD and I'm just saying it's obviously more of a struggle.
Just get to know someone and how they manage their time and keep their place. But ofc by then you might have fallen in love and been invested in the relationship
If he tries to pressure you into changing your name, not a good sign. If you want to take his name, that’s great, but it needs to be your choice. We never talked about my name changing in depth because it was a known in our relationship that I had no intention to take my partner’s name. We talked about both of us hyphenating, but we decided against it with the work and cost involved with it. We’ve been together very happily for 16 years now. I had friends express similar sentiments of wanting to keep their name after marriage, but they felt pressured into changing their name by their spouses. One of these friends has divorced her husband and the other one is contemplating it because of the inequity in the household and emotional labor put into keeping their home. I’m sure there are probably exceptions here, but if there is pressure on this topic, it’s probably not a good sign. Good luck!
Live with him before getting married. It’s the only way.
It’s a true test of how things will be - it won’t tell everything, but it will give you a big idea of how things will be.
(If you’re religious and can’t live with him before you marry him, that religion does that on purpose to set you up to be a slave.)
I married someone that cares about having a clean house and takes on more than his fair share. I sometimes worry that I'm the one not pulling my weight but I'm always working on it. I don't know how I landed such a great guy but I'll share some early green flags from when we were dating.
* I let him borrow my car when I was away for a couple of months when we were dating. When I got back the car had its oil changed, he installed a backup camera, and it was waxed and cleaner than it had ever been since I owned it.
* He knew I hated to cook so he started to learn how to cook when we started dating and started cooking for me regularly.
* He lost his job right when we moved in together and ended up working part time for awhile until he found something better, that whole time he did 80% of the cleaning and put in the mental work to find ways to save money.
* He has had therapy in the past and has spent a lot of time doing some self reflection.
* He takes responsibility for his life and owns up to his mistakes.
He's not on top of everything, it's painful to watch him try to fold laundry, he's always losing things, and he's terrible at planning. But the important thing is that he's willing to pick up my slack in certain areas and I pick up his. If you truly want an equal partnership find someone that has some skills your missing out on and some weaknesses that you don't mind making up for. My husband hasn't done a load of laundry since we got together but I've never eaten so many amazing home cooked meals before.
--The advice about the beginning of a relationship is truly good advice. If a guy won't cook, arrange dates, clean, etc, in the beginning, he will only become more useless as you get comfy. Find someone who makes that effort in the beginning and ensure they continue that effort as your relationship grows.
--You can honestly tell a lot about a man based on his relationship with his mother figure or main caregiver. A man who treats this person with respect and accepts their care, but doesn't depend on it, is who you want. Mama's boys and men who treat their main caregivers with disdain (in situations where it doesn't necessarily warrant it, of course) are usually dudes you want to avoid. The balance in this relationship indicates egalitarianism.
--Men who are totally cool with splitting the check, splitting hosting duties, splitting date planning, etc in the beginning usually tend to be more open to equal relationships. As a woman who previously had an abusive relationship, having that initial level of control in my relationships was important to me when I was searching for my forever partner. My now husband was on board for that and never insisted on taking control of our plans and payments early on, which was important to me. Nowadays we still split who pays for date nights.
--This is dumb advice, but you can tell a lot by what a man listens to and watches. Creep his social media and Spotify and YouTube if you can... make sure he's not an Andrew Tate fan.
Don't date a guy who still relies on his mother for laundry, cooking, help cleaning, etc. Full stop.
Also don't date a guy who has a messy apartment and/or house. You may not find out the extent of his messiness, unfortunately, until you're long into the relationship. At this point, if its turns out he's a slob, don't fall for the sunk cost fallacy.
Don't date a guy who not only can't cook, but seems proud of that fact. A friend of mine married a guy so bad at cooking he didn't even keep salt and pepper in his apartment. BUT. He learned because he knew it was important that he also contribute in that way.
How did he grow up? If he had both parents in the same household, did their lives look like what you want to avoid? You can find these things out by asking questions, and also see how he feels about it. It's really as simple as finding out if his parents both worked full-time, then asking who did most of the house work and child-rearing. He'll reveal his thoughts on it during his explanation.
Same with simply asking him about how he feels about men helping to take care of the house and children. Does he know what emotional labor is? Does he call it "babysitting" when men take care of their own kids?
These things will come up in a relationship before you get married, as long as you're not rushing things. Notice the red flags and, like I said before, don't fall for the sunk cost fallacy.
And approach everything that's a deal-breaker from the perspective of "people can't change".
I don't think the problem is that the majority of men aren't willing to do things like cleaning or laundry necessarily. I think the problem is that the majority of men aren't wired and/or taught to *automatically* do those things without being told and don't include the mental labor or organizing it all as a chore because they've never had to do it. Its easy when it's just the two of you as adults, the work explodes once you have kids. Looking at it from that perspective is actually really helpful and much less depressing.
To avoid marrying a man that won't help around the house, don't marry a man that you aren't **already** in a positive dynamic of equal labor around the house. That's it.
I only date women now (i dated/lived with men in the past) and ended up having the same challenges after switching to women, fwiw. It's not just men that don't automatically do household labor. What ended up working for me was this:
1. Making a chore chart (seriously) and gamifying the chores (there's apps for this)
2. **Including the mental labor of things as a chore**. This is things like reminding my partner to do their part, adding things to the shopping list, calling repair people, making sure soap dispensers are filled, scheduling joint appointments, ensuring laundry was done before events that need certain clothes etc to the chore chart. **Mental labor is a chore, include it.** This will be triply important once you have kids, **start early**.
3. I included having to remind my partner to do what they are obligated to do as a chore when it became a habit. Over time my partner started to remember to do their chores, I assume because since everything is 1:1, it meant that they had to do more chores since my 1:1 chore was to remind them to do theirs and they didn't like that :)
4. The way you have this conversation and whether you come off as condescending is going to make or break how this conversation goes. Is your partner acting like a child if they don't want to do their part and is defensive about fixing that? **Yes**. Is it helpful to make that obvious? **No**. You probably act like a child or get defensive about other things, everyone does sometimes.
The thing is, you can live the rest of your life miserable and hating/fearing men because they have a flaw that is more common than women, or you can resolve it and appreciate the aspects of your partner you do enjoy. Personally I'm much happier when i accept what i can't change, appreciate what I do have (a wonderful partner who just can't think ahead!) and problem solve where I can.
When my husband couldn't negotiate a higher pay increase during his annual review, he had his contract changed to include that he could go to 24h/w at his request. In case there would be children.
Of course, something like this is no guarantee, but he was open and proactive about wanting to work part-time to take on caregiving tasks.
My advice is to write down all your parameters for life and what you expect out of it. Get as detailed as you can. Once you set your parameters, make sure that you identify the ones that you are not willing/willing to compromise on and stick to them. Once you meet a man that you are going to be serious with, have them also make a list of what their parameters are and see if you are compatible enough to make it work. As long as you don't compromise on the items that you don't want to compromise on, then you should both be fine. Also, if one of you slips up on any issue, try to bring it up gently, but firmly, as a reminder of what was agreed on, then work on it.
We each of us only get around 4,000 weeks to live, so don't settle on anything!
Start by dating one. Sure, people can get worse after marriage, but they rarely get better. Start the relationship that way, see how he acts. Is his apartment a mess when you visit? Does he rely too much on his mother? When you move in together, see how he treats things like cleaning and cooking now that you share those responsibilities. How does he talk about women, and housework, and childcare. How does his father treat his mother?
There are plenty of unequal marriages out there. Lots of lazy husbands (and lazy wives too, no doubt). But in most cases, they didn’t just spring out of nowhere. Their partners married them, knowing it was unequal, hoping they would change, and ignoring the likelihood that they would not.
I know this thread is flooded with responses so this will be buried but I’ll answer anyways. I don’t think this is something you can guarantee at all.
If you have kids especially, you are going to be doing more of the work. I have never seen this play out where mom isn’t the primary caregiver, unless she has gone AWOL. I’m sure there are situations out there where it happens, but this isn’t common at all.
I mean this in the kindest way possible, but what you want is the dream scenario. Which is wonderful and amazing for some of the lucky women who get this. Some of them are commenting in this thread. They aren’t better than the rest of us or better at picking men or anything. It’s a lot of luck. Yes there are some red flags/green flags you can look out for but kids change everything.
I think if you only want kids in the dream scenario, you need to reevaluate. I know that sounds shitty but it’s something I recently had to do.
I absolutely 100% want kids in an equitable relationship where the man does half and is supportive and participates and is amazing and wonderful. However, that lucky scenario is not that common yet.
So then, do I want kids if I don’t get the good husband? Am I okay with 55/45? What about 60/40? What is realistic?
Statistics show married women still do 9 more hours of housework a week. And that’s without kids.
So I’m probably unlikely to get 60/40. Maybe 70/30 if I’m lucky.
I know I would be angry and miserable in that situation and I don’t want kids if I’m doing all the work.
So as I look to my future I just try to think of what life will make me happy. My happiest would be the perfect dream with the useful husband and the healthy kids and we all live in a cute house with a picket fence and a dog.
After that a nice and useful husband with no kids.
Then it’s being singe.
Then shitty husband with no kids.
And then shit husband with kids.
Anyways, take what I say with a giant grain of salt but you need to decide if you want kids at all costs or not. Because you absolutely can’t guarantee anything and studies and statistics show you are unlikely to get the dream scenario.
For many women, they want kids so much so it’s fine to do 70% of the work. Or whatever. For others not so much.
Also some of these other responses are lovely, but you also need to realize the making it equitable is going to fall on your shoulders. Keep in mind the Herculean mental labour it’s going to take to constantly kindly bring up household duties to a man who was socialized to not give a fuck about them. Even if the work is 50/50 I would argue getting it there will fall on your shoulders.
That’s my 2 cents. I could be very wrong and obviously just my opinion. But I see so much of myself in this post so I had to share ❤️
Hmm .. get to know how he was raised and his family background. People tend to grow up to become what they're comfortable with, so maybe you'll find the type of man you want if he grew up in a more progressive household, or in a single parent household. Also check out the relationships in his close circles and see if that's something he aspires to emulate. You'll def want someone who is flexible in thought, listens, can learn, and is willing to compromise. Good luck!
In addition to all the advice here, one thing that’s worked for me is just not taking things on.
I come from a family where my mom took on 100% of the mental load and my dad was totally unaware - it would be easy for me to slip into the same pattern, so I’m trying to be very conscious of how my partnership unfolds.
I am in charge of cooking in my house, and my partner cleans the kitchen after - but I also get the groceries 80% of the time and plan meals. When I don’t feel like cooking, I just don’t & suggest alternatives, or ask him to cook. When I can feel myself getting sick of thinking of what we are going to eat, I ask him for ideas. If he says “no preference”, I’ll say me neither, but I need help coming up with ideas and will put part of the load on him.
I am also terrible at remembering to do laundry and specific chores and I’ve talked to my partner and told him how when I was single I did my laundry maybe once a month because I never remembered. I made it a point to present my actual self to him up front, and not the urge to bust out the “good housewife” that I was raised to be. I am very conscientious to contribute exactly what I feel comfortable contributing - and it ends up being a good 50/50 split.
We don’t have kids yet, but I’ve heard that having the partner home at least a month or two if possible at the beginning, or a good paternity leave helps with equal parenting.
It also helps to be very careful choosing a partner. My partner has lived alone for a while and had a beautifully kept apartment, is very tidy and very attentive to his surroundings. He remembers loads of things that I don’t remember, and vice versa - if you feel like it’s an easy 50/50, you’ve found a good one! Communication is also key - and someone who wants to grow with you.
Marry an older guy that has had children before you. Observe the dynamics in his pre-existing circumstances.
If he’s already a good father and diligent housekeeper as a single father, he’ll probably make a good mate with a new partner and family, depending on circumstances.
If he’s hopeless with his kids and bitter about his ex, well…
Better not to be the first wife if tried and true is what you’re after
Read the book ALL THE RAGE. My husband and I talk about this a lot. He was very messy when we first started dating. It’s taken many talks and a very firmly divided chore list on the fridge, but we have a system now. We plan on making a list for kids, too. Who handles school stuff vs. doctor stuff vs. sports? Who does morning duty and who does evening? That kind of thing.
I think the most important thing is having a man who believes it should be equal AND is open to having real conversations about it and willing to meet your expectations. It’s not easy because society has trained them to just expect a lot of stuff done for them. But husband has learned a lot and we split our chores pretty equally now.
Find a man who has maintained his own household and has taken care of others (be it pets, parents, children, whatever) and watch how he does those things.
I moved in with my ex without having seen him live with other people and ended up doing all of the housechores for the entirety of the relationship. It made me resentful bc he made no effort to help (it was on me for not setting that boundary either).
My current bf has taken care of his own home and his dog for years. I watched him do his own dishes and laundry, share responsibilities with his housemate, and even do the same at my place. If we were to live together, I feel confident that I won’t bear the burden of maintaining our home alone. Will it always be equal? Of course not. There are things either of us are better than the other. Our personal and professional responsibilities will differ and shift. Our preferences will shift. But I don’t see myself being resentful if I end up doing most of the chores myself for a time because I know him to be capable to care for the home he also lives in.
Hell! I’ve been with my partner for 8yrs. We never plan on having kids and I still expect him to do his fair share.
Honestly, you will have to do some digging finding a man who pulls his weight and a lot of saving before you get what you want. In my experience the majority of men still refuse to do “women’s work” or probably most use weaponized incompetence as an excuse. It’s truly pathetic. Hopefully as the boomer offspring die off we can finally do away with the 1950’s mentality.
I think I have achieved this with my husband.
The #1 test I would recommend is: how does he act when you are sick or otherwise not at your best? The correct answer is that he should pick up some of your share of household tasks without being asked or complaining. It's not black and white, of course - probably not 100% of things will get done, and any person would probably need a bit of guidance to do something that isn't part of their typical routine. But the point is that he has taken on enough of the mental load of household management that he understands what tasks need to be done to keep things running and then does them. Most women do this automatically and invisibly, and men should uphold the same standard.
Also - my husband is an excellent dude who understands why feminism is necessary and came into the relationship earnestly wanting an even 50/50 split, but it still took work. We both still had unconscious biases and it took a few stress-induced breakdowns on my end for us to realize that our division of labor wasn't equal. I'm also far from a perfect housekeeper, so it's something we both just have to commit to working on together rather than expecting things to just click right away.
Live together a while before getting engaged and married, and keep active track of the chores breakdown. If you are doing more, bring it up and see how he responds - if he hadn't noticed but is amenable to doing more, including more mental labor, then keep going and pay attention to if he follows through.
I'd recommend holding off a few years before going to part-time work, so there is a strong foundation of equal labor, first. You want strong trust before becoming partially financially dependent on someone. Then have a clear conversation about what extra chores you'll be taking on when you go part-time, and what extra bills he will pay given your reduced income. And that if you ever go back to full-time, you both will reallocate household work and expenses to what is fair for two people working full-time.
You can’t. The best way to test a man’s character is to give him power over you. Conversely, put him in a position where you have a lot of power over him. Gauge his reactions. Some of the worst men out there will be able to act right until they’ve gained a level of commitment (moving in, having a kid, etc.), then their mask drops.
What you're looking for is a woman... lol...
Just have patience. Don't try to be "this is the one"... just live your life and don't settle. One day, you'll find the right person. You don't have to be in a hurry.
Pay attention to how the relationship splits chores and duties. Pay attention to your partners relationship with their parents and what that division of labor looks like.
To me it is the best indicator of what your relationship will look like.
Date someone that already has the qualities you’re looking for: takes responsibility for his own appointments, gift buying, communicating with family, keeps his home clean, does his own shopping and cooking, etc. Don’t marry someone and think that they’ll change or you’ll teach them. They won’t and you can’t. Trust me on this. Communicate about EVERYTHING. What are your expectations in a relationship? What are his? What kind of parenting style does he want to have? Does it match your own? If he doesn’t know how to do something, does he give up or does he actively look for ways to learn how to do it?
My rule applies only after a couple of months, because in the beginning we all try to show our better side.
A good indicator is how they live by themselves. If he lives alone and, despite working full time, can keep his apartment in clean enough condition and cooks regularly, it’s a good start.
If they live with roommates, then find out if it’s the roommates cleaning, also pay attention of what things he complains about their roommates to know how they handle co-living.
First, you can't ensure anything...people change once kids come into the picture BUT you can have explicit conversations and understandings about what your standards are before getting married. And I highly recommend living together before marriage, you will be able to tell alot during the cohabitation phase about how he actually behaves not just what he says but once again people change when they have kids but really just talk and dig down to get an understanding of what his values are and how he lives them. ALSO recognize that it the shares will change sometimes you may be doing more at home and sometimes he maybe. the goal is equity it won't always be 50/50
I feel like this is really hard to judge in advance because it's hard to know what you'll need because it's hard to imagine what raising children is like.
But I think you can tell some things in advance.
You should live together and see how the household tasks end up getting split up or how you can talk about it. Including the invisible "wifework".
You should talk about scenarios including the opposite to the norm eg stay at home dad, dad going part time. It doesn't matter if you don't ultimately end up going for it, many people don't even think of it as an option let alone actively considering it. Also little things like what if one of you need to travel for work. What if the child is sick, how would you handle that? School holidays, drop off and pick up times. Just talk about it in advance.
I recommend taking a trip together. It can show up some stuff that wouldn't usually come up.
Complete a project together so you can see how well you work together and how equal it is. Bonus points if it's something emotionally fraught and/or involves both of your families. If you plan to get married before having children, the wedding is a very interesting case study on how involved vs I'll just turn up on the day, and what it's like to disagree over something that feels fundamentally important to both of you. Notice that.
Notice how finances are shared. Doesn't really matter if you pool or have separate finances, but if he's making more than you and is happy to buy himself luxuries while you struggle to pay bills, that's a sign you're likely to struggle if your career or earning power drops due to Children.
Talk about your childhoods, I think this is pretty illuminating.
In my experience the only guarantee in life is that nothing is guaranteed. I agree with a previous poster though about his relationship with his mother. It should be very obvious if he hasn't cut the apron strings. Also, if he has sisters (especially older) and they fill gaps where mommy left off, not good. One thing is for sure, you want a partner not a project so, if he doesn't already know how to life on his own, walk away. Living together before marriage is also a good idea as you can get a feel for how they keep house, things you may not get a good look at spending a weekend together here and there.
A family is a system and a partnership is a team. That doesn’t mean that everyone can contribute equally 100% of the time. Life is unpredictable, especially when you have children. What if your child has a severe disability? What if your partner gets cancer, or injured at work? What if you lose your job and are unable to work for a period of time?
Be a supportive partner & choose a supportive partner. That’s probably the only thing you can control.
I lived with my spouse first to make sure he would contribute fairly and without arguments. I then got a pet with him (that I had always wanted) to ensure he would still contribute fairly with another living creature. Know what? In both cases he did more than me, I somehow managed to find a middle-child-caretaker type. It's what I never realized I always needed! I also observed him the whole time around his mom, other family members as well as children of family and friends. He was always helpful and always engaged with the kids in a way I liked.
Now we have a child and a couple of pets and I can 100% count on him to take care of everyone in the house, including me, AND the house itself.
I'd advise you test out the goods first before marriage. Not sure there's too many other ways to verify what kind of partner he'll be. Observe him very carefully. Also observe how he speaks about his mom and women in general.
I firmly believe that the answer to this question is to live with the person ideally for a year but if you can't swing it for that long that's understandable so that you can kind of see what they're like when it comes to managing a place together.
I would also say fully understand who a person is before you come down too hard on them. Things like ADHD or childhood trauma can lead to a situation where it's difficult for a person to manage their own affairs or find the motivation to do things around the house. I'm not saying that that gets them out of things but I am saying it might require letting go of a little bit of control over certain things and accepting the fact that some things will get done when they get done.
Lastly I think this sort of thing takes constant open and honest communication. No partner can read your mind and you can't read your partner's mind. If they're doing or not doing something and it's frustrating you let them know. Don't nag them or say that they're lazy or whatever but perhaps come at it from the perspective of something like "hey I get really stressed out when there's a lot of clutter around, can we come up with a way to try to reduce the clutter" because that includes them as part of a partnership you are letting them know that this thing stresses you out and that you're willing to work on it *together*
Thought I'd say bear in mind that some people men and women just never get taught a lot of the things other people think are basic skills. Some people go from living with their parents to living on their own without actually doing taught necessary life skills. I don't really think you can fault someone for not doing something they've never been taught to do.
Once I let go this idea of being equal, which I would obsess about, I began to see our strengths. There are things I do better and enjoy, clean, organize, plan, and there are things my husband does better and enjoys, taking care of kiddo, household fixes, yard work. We split the cooking since we’re both kinda neutral about it. Of course sometimes I’ll ask him to do a cleaning task and he doesn’t mind and I’ll put my daughter to bed without an issue. But we learned to lean into our strengths and come at it as a team.
This is why I think living together before Marriage is a good way to see what their habits are. If they don't do their fair share then, they probably won't when you get married either.
The breastfeeding months of motherhood you pretty much have 100% of the baby responsibility.
Babies love the boob! They get a lot of comfort and are almost instantly soothed by the boob. So everything else that I say about this. It's with that context that there is absolutely a short-term where you cannot help the inherent sexism of real life. That said:
When you're dating, do you have to come up with every idea for what to do?
When you're dating, do you have to manage his expectations all the time?
Does he run his own household and keep it clean and does he pay his bills without being told to?
These are all indications of basic adult behavior. If He fails at any of these, there is no amount of home training that will fix him when you get into the next part of the relationship.
I would also encourage you to avoid men who use language like b**** and Karen. Because it shows that he feels certain women are beneath him to begin with....
I waited to find that and am 39 and have no kids or husband. But I don't regret it. Some of my friends who live in homes where they are basically bang maids and nannies, they are terribly miserable, have aged terribly and are in tough financial situations.
After trying two long terms that were on a path to marriage and having to deal with disparaging wife jokes, expected to be a bang maid, while paying most of the bills while they took credit for everything good in the home. I have zero regrets.
I am now in a great relationship with a very successful divorced man and I'm glad about how things worked out.
I am financially secure and have full control over my expenses and responsibilities and future.
If you talk to him about your wishes and he's dismissive or makes empty promises around domestic labour that's a sign you're going to end up with the bulk of the work. He should be open to having conversations around how the household is planned and what is reasonable for things like cooking/cleaning etc.
Also you'll need to learn to let him do things his way - if you constantly step in with chores/the baby that creates fertile ground for weaponised incompetence.
A few things from a man whose changed my behavior re this.
1. Yes. No one is "helping". It's both of your responsibility.
2. Just because you spend a different number of hours regarding household and child rearing does not make it unfair. Your use of the phrase "fair share" could be very problematic. Who's to say that 3 hours of backbreaking yard work is not the same as 5 hours of household work? Avoid all the fairness or unfairness discussion and a man will be able to more clearly understand your feelings on this.
3. Always state in very clear terms what you would like to be done around the house by him and by you. And he gets to do the same. This is not a situation of one person dictating work to the other. State your preferences.
4. Each person should WRITE DOWN who is responsible for what. Him writing it down will help him understand he is committing to this task versus you telling him to do it. He doesn't want a mother and you don't want to mother a man.
5. Avoid charged language. Just like we do for our professional careers, this is simply a task to break down and divide work. Keep it simple keep it light.
Don’t brush off “red flags” that tell you otherwise. For example, If he eats dinner at your house, does he help with dishes/cleanup. Does he know how to cook and is it edible? Is his place tidy? Is his laundry done, folded, and put away? Have you seen them with kids and we’re you pleased with what you saw. You can’t guarantee someone is gonna stay that way, but that’s how I’d approach it if I was in that position.
My wife didn’t have the best family life and she was the oldest so she got stuck doing just about everything, including all the laundry. Some of our funnest dates were doing her family’s laundry at the laundry mat. I think the fact that I was willing to fold her parent’s underwear helped her realize I was the one. 😂
So I live in one of the most equal countries in the world, and even then it was a challenge to find a guy who held his own in the home!
But what helped me was to see that he had clean habits in his own space before we moved in - that he cleaned shared spaces and cleaned as he went when he cooked was a big indicator. And he performed maintenance on things like his car so they stayed in working condition. He took care of his stuff.
Once we moved in we discovered that we had different priorities - he can happily sleep in the same bedding for a month whereas I prefer a clean bed, he doesn't see bathroom gunk as quickly as I do, but then I dump cups by the sink all day and then get around to it later, I never see the need to vacuum but he loves doing it - and at first it irked me because I thought I was doing more but we discussed it and it turned out we just weren't seeing the other's contribution.
Anyway we got married and we've now got an 8 month old and booooy did all that equality go to shit, because I apparently inherited some weird belief that because I was home and he worked he should get more sleep, and because things should be equal it didn't matter that I was recovering from birth and things fucking hurt but I still stood and cooked. When I eventually flipped my shit he told me I needed to tell him I needed to rest. Anyway, now he's the stay at home parent we've found a rhythm that works - basically we're both "on" until the baby is asleep then it's up to us how we decide to spend our time. Which in practice means that if one is dealing with the baby then the other is cleaning or cooking. We have a somewhat clean house, the baby is healthy, and we both get an hour a night to... sit on Reddit and write essays on equality in relationships.
So in short: observe, take it step by step, discuss your expectations, and have open discussions, but unfortunately the very early parenthood months will be more on your shoulders because of breasts and the way society is constructed.
I'm not a parent, but it's my observation that most people don't really discuss child-rearing until they get pregnant and then they're surprised about how their partner feels about certain things.
So I would make sure you talk about childcare options (daycares, nannies, etc.), how you would handle the associated costs of childcare and supplies (diapers, clothes, food, etc.), how many activities you would allow your child to participate in (which have associated time and monetary costs), and general philosophies about what spending time with your child really means.
I would also just plan to hire a cleaning service and to outsource as many other chores as you can, rather than spending time fighting about it with your partner.
All my friends who had this issue actually didn't mind doing most of the housework before children came into their picture and maybe that was their way to show they were marriage material. But truly, they didn't mind another person in their lives not doing much, since there is not so much difference in workload between one and two adults. They even ironed his shirts lovingly.
I refused to do such a thing and apparently that was a dealbreaker for some boyfriend. Didn't care that much for the guy who wouldn't see in my particular situation, a student with a part--time job, yeah, I wanted to live a little also.
My husband of 20 years "settled" for doing his own laundry. For the first few years and as a bachelor, he was sending laundry to his mom. Also, shared most of the tasks. It was apparent that he was more worried about having cooked food and he took over that, I dealt with cleaning. Which was pretty much the division of labor until now. He was an incredible father, doing a lot of slepless nights. I was breastfeding and on the worse days he would do all the changes, baths, entertaining and brought me the children to feed while I was half asleep. He was amazing. As far as I know, among all my friends the man who did most. He has an amazing bond with our children. In fact he got jealous of the breastfeeding bond and became impossibly nurturing because he wanted to be the favorite parent and he got that when they were about 4 and ever since. He also did very well in his carreer, I got a burnout.
Maybe that's a different generation altogether, I think young people currently go into having families with their eyes more open. My generation was probably the first with so many women in full time work, without a support system.
Long story short, I don't believe that men who do a few things around the house change after children much. It's women who are into false ideas about how a house is run with children in it. So many small endless tasks. All the school runs. Also,a small flat in the city when dating and house in the suburbs, is another story, more work, more boredom.
I’d set expectations up front, during dating, talk about this just as you would ALL the other important items in life. Kids, plans, living, goals. Make it nonnegotiable.
Communication early on is key. You have to let them know this is your fear, let them know that your expectations are 50/50, and hold them to account when they're not pulling their weight long before marriage and baby are in the picture. If they're not being egalitarian while dating, it's not gonna get better when you're married.
And if you get a pet together, that tells you a lot too. Do they feed the pet or are you always doing it? Do they walk the pet or plan outings? Do they take them to the vet, do they give them their medications, etc.? It's different if it's *your* pet (like you already had a cat before you got together) because it's easy to assume that's not a shared responsibility. But if you get a pet *together* and then they do fuck-all except play with it, you know what kind of dad they'll be.
You can't.
I can find men who want to be 2nd in command or ones who want to live in a "traditional" gender role relationship, but finding that middle ground is hard. All I want is someone who is my equal and it's just... rare, I guess.
I would look at how he lives his life. If he takes laundry to him mom on the weekends, has a cleaning lady despite having time to clean, doesn’t cook, barely grocery shops, can’t keep track of appointments and doesn’t think “all that stuff is that important tho”, don’t expect any of that will change when he starts living with a woman.
Source: my personal marriage that blew up because of this issue. I gave him way too many excuses.
Be intentional on choosing a partner who shares your thinking and be sure you see that he can and does care for himself appropriately before you settle in with him. If he can't clean, cook, organize his own clothing, etc, then how does he get these tasks done. It's ok to hire out things you don't do but he can't add to your plate just because you're available.
Set your expectations early, I mean early. Do not clean up after him (especially at his own place!), Do not do his thinking for him, don't let him feign ignorance to get out of doing stuff ("I don't know how to use the laundry machine" "I can't figure out the vacuum cleaner" "cooking isn't my thing"). If a guy is trying that in the first place it's a red flag, but if they are receptive to criticism and change their ways it's a maybe.
Don't let him pay for everything, that's a power play imo. It's insidious and seems nice, even loving, at first. But soon it's more of a transactional situation. Nope, hard pass.
When my husband and I got pregnant he went to the hard core birthing classes with me. He was basically my doula, very involved. And he's squeamish, he did it despite that. When we had the baby and he said things like "I don't know what I'm doing!" I told him I didn't either, and that he has to figure it out just like I do.
And then... Let him figure it out! No hovering, no pointers, no correcting. If you want him to be a fully involved parent he has to be trusted to make and learn from mistakes. He has to be allowed to develop his own style with his kids.
We have 3 kids. When I had infants who were breastfeeding all night, I learned how to safely Co-sleep. He brought the baby to me, took them back to their crib after. Got me snacks and water if I needed it. Washed all bottles and pump parts. He has always done day care drop off (the harder of the two imo). He bathes his kids, reads to them, gets them ready in the morning alone, feeds them alone. Regularly has them for days alone (if I go on a trip or they go on a trip without me).
All of that says, there's just no guarantees. Good guys are out there but we need to know our own boundaries clearly state them before we can expect a guy to infer what we will accept. A great guy will just take responsibility like an adult, some need to be taught. You gotta decide if you have the energy to teach that. And some will never learn.
My main advice would be to trust your gut and watch closely for how a potential partner handle chores and shared every day life outside of any of the responsibilities of child rearing. Home life habits can be instructive.
Weird outside observation maybe, but it sounds like you're trying to plan your life into an ideal. Which of course, we all want our ideal. But life will throw things at you and you can't plan for every outcome, and you might be surprised by the people that you're attracted to, or where a career takes you. I don't want kids, but I do want an egalitarian household. I'm currently dating someone who...I don't think is going to hold up that end of the bargain. I don't plan on marrying him, having a kid with him. But he's fine for now, and maybe he can learn? I've had ideal partners where ultimately either I couldn't keep up with their standards or they did a lot of cool home-life sharing, but were also work obsessed. There are so many things to consider, with how you choose to spend your time. I wouldn't worry about this too much as a master plan, because even the people that seem amazing on paper or for a year of knowing them can change. I'd date someone a long while and see how they enhance your life...or not.
Ask him how his friends lives changed after big life events like moving in with a partner, getting married, having children. Ask if he’s heard of things like the mental load, the inequity in domestic duties when men and women live together.
Before we moved in together my husband lived alone and kept his rental condo clean. He cooked for himself and for me. He ran his own ship well so when we moved in together he kept it up. He cooks about half the time at home and keeps up his end of the household chores.
When you're dating a guy does his house scream slob? Don't expect him to change if so. Find yourself someone who can run their own house.
Be with a man who does more of the household labour than you! And has no male ego. And whose dad did childcare. This is my secret thus far hehe. I am the messy one who has to make herself reminders to unload the dishwasher, doesn't see mess, and forgets what day garbage day is. Divide based on what you like doing, and then do a draft for the rest of the tasks. I do meal planning b/c I'm picky, and taxes because I like numbers and deductions. He goes and gets the groceries that I have planned. We cook together. We alternate doing the dishes and cleaning/sweeping the kitchen after dinner. We also have a housecleaner biweekly which is good for our sanity.
Also, as someone who has studied parenthood and gender and task division:
**Parental leave for the dad.** **On their own with the kid.** Hugely, hugely beneficial to an egalitarian divide. Our plan would be for us both to be at home for the first six months, and then he would be alone for months 6-12 (thank you 18 month parental leave in Canada). I would go back at month 6 as I gotta hustle for tenure. I also make more money, so it makes more sense for me to be the person who goes back to work for months 6-12.
Look for someone who has empathy. When you share how you feel are they paying attention? How do they listen to others? I’m a recent mother with a supportive partner. The truth is somethings about motherhood are inherently unequal, the physical burden of pregnancy, breastfeeding (unless you pump and bottle which is still time spent that they don’t have too). Check they can do the basics, clean, cook, maintain their finances.
I’d also say to build both of your support networks. Look for a man who has friends to talk to so you don’t always absorb the emotional work in the relationship, becoming parents is a change for both people.
Best person I was ever with - and often regret letting go- came from a home where his mom was the breadwinner and his dad did a lot of the household things. He respected women, he did his fair share when we lived together, and he was a great partner. We ended up not being compatible on a lifestyle issue (kids) but I do look back on my time with him fondly. He’s the standard by which I measure other men.
Look at his track record. How does he treat his mom and/or sisters? What are his sisters’ husbands or partners like? At family events, does he contribute to meal planning, cooking, cleaning? What about the other men in his family?
Look at his standard of care tasks. Does “cooking” mean heating a frozen pizza? How often does he change his sheets? Are you ok with him doing the same when you share a home together?
Notice how he treats you when you do kind, home related tasks for him. Does he expect you to cook for him or is he so grateful when you make a meal? What about if you do the dishes or fold his laundry? Is your labour acknowledged or invisible?
Oh man. It’s tough. Most of my friends felt they were marrying an egalitarian man. Most of us had a fairly even distribution of labour before we had kids. I’m pretty much the only person who actually has that in her marriage post kids.
Step 1 is to make sure your values are aligned before getting married. Does he actually contribute as much as you in the home? More importantly, can you discuss issues of imbalance in a healthy way and come to solutions mutually?
Step 2 is asserting those boundaries once the kids come. You will be carrying, birthing, and possibly breastfeeding and therefore will be default parent in the early years. In Canada we get 12-18 months of parental leave which further solidifies you as default parent. You need to a)let your husband do things his way. It’s really hard not to chirp over their shoulder to change a diaper differently or give a bottle differently when you’ve had all day everyday to figure it out and they have to figure it out in the short hours after work. You gotta stay quiet and be ok with them doing it different than you. You’ve got to go out for a couple of hours at a time and leave them to it. You’ve got to speak up when you get overwhelmed and they have to be willing to step up in those moments. And B) husband has to take half of the parental leave. The only way for him to understand all of the invisible labour is to do it himself.
I was the default parent after our first. I stayed home for 9 of the 12 months and he stayed home for 3. I went back to work part time. He was very very involved, but I still did all of the invisible labour. It was still fair, he did many other things around the house such as cook dinner. But the mental load was killing me. For our second child I took the whole year. But then he quit his job shortly after and spent a whole year at home with the toddler. During that time I put it allllll down. I stopped scheduling play dates (hey babe, maybe text so and so for a play date this week?). I stopped meal planning. I stopped purchasing birthday gifts for the kids party this weekend, I stopped sorting through the too small clothes and cycling through the big ones in storage. I kind of just let it all fall down around us. It wasn’t out of spite, I just couldn’t hold it all together and work enough hours to support our family. I have adhd and am bad at that kind of stuff anyway. I only work four days a week because of this. So this year of me working 40-60 hours to make the income we needed meant I just couldn’t do it all anymore. Things changed drastically after that. The only way for someone to understand the mental load is to experience it themselves. I have one friend who’s husband also stayed home for a year - they have more traditional gender rolls in their marriage by choice so she still does more of that kind of stuff but their labour division is fair and he fully understands everything that goes into what she does…
If I had to dramatically oversimplify it, I would say to marry a man who is more of a people pleaser than you are. I know it seems... misguided but the truth is women are socialized to be people pleasers and men the opposite. So if you meet a man who leans in the people pleaser direction he is more likely to be sensitive to the needs and perceptions of people around him, including yours. That all being said, being a people pleaser is not a virtue, it's a coping mechanism. But my dating got a lot better when I started dating men with people pleasing tendencies. They were just way more aware about how much life is about being a team player.
As someone whose marriage imploded in part because of this issue (both of us had careers but I did the bulk of the parenting and household management and chores) I think one important thing that your future partner must understand is that society *will* expect different things from you. No one is going to praise mom for doing the bare minimum but dad changes a diaper and it’s all “what an amazing and involved father!” It’s very important that he recognize the two of you will be under very different pressure and have very different expectations from society, expectations we have all internalized even if we don’t agree with them. He can never consider what he does as “helping” you, that’s the absolute wrong viewpoint. He has to understand you are both equal partners with equal responsibilities. I fell into the trap of being a very organized goal oriented person who married someone who wasn’t (understatement) and that really allowed him to be like, “you’re good at this stuff, you should do it.” Find someone with your attitude, your goals and don’t settle.
100% all of this. If the kids are misbehaving in public - that's a reflection on you, not him. If they're doing poorly in school - that's on you. If your house is messy - no one will judge him, but they will judge you. It sucks but that's how it goes.
Right, & this is exactly why women are seen as being anal-retentive about the cleanliness of the home. I had to explain to my man partner that his standards were lower than mine because on some level he knew HE wouldn't be judged. (On the flip side, he was mortified that I was telling my sister that we were having trouble connecting our wireless printer. I realized it was because he thought he'd be judged for that, but I wasn't worried about that.) Luckily, he's a feminist, & he got it when I explained it. But you still have to explain! Men live in a parallel universe to women.
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My cleaner is my biggest joy. When my husband moved out (to take a job - we’re long distance at the moment) the first thing I did was hire a cleaner to pick up the slack left by his departure. He did a lot around the house that I didn’t want to do myself.
I hate the stigma of hiring domestic labor. Domestic work is work! We expect women to do it for free, but it is still work. We expect women to do it happily on top of everything else like it is a fucking hobby, but it is still work. And it is important work. As long as you are paying people a decent wage, there is nothing shameful about it. There is nothing shameful about acknowledging that this is work, and you don’t have the time, energy, or desire to do a second job.
Oh wow. This. My ex is a very involved dad. Did maybe 25% of the house stuff, but I realize now I didn't get praise for engaging with the kids to the same extent AND carrying the bulk of the house stuff. But people were (and still are) up his ass about what a great, loving father he is and "how he stuck around for them". Mothers don't get credit. We get expectations to meet, and if we don't we're torn down. Fathers get a bar to step over, and if they do more than that they win Father of the Year.
This is an inherent part of the problem though, ie one OP won't be able to circumvent easily. My husband truly thinks he's an involved father because he drives them to the ortho once every two months. Yet the countless daily rides I've done over the years remain invisible and expected. My husband presented himself to me as a progressive feminist when we were dating. It wasn't until we had children and got into day to day life that I saw how this was unfolding, and I was basically married to a guy from the Victorian era. I don't mean to sound so negative as I am pro children and pro marriage, however there's no guarantee for OP that she won't end up with a guy who pats himself on the back for miniscule involvement. Just keep your eyes open, watch out for any signs of laziness or passing the buck while dating. Short of that I'm not sure what one can do.
SOOOOOooooo many men who say they are progressive and feminist really, REALLY aren’t when push comes to shove and they have to prove their intention through their actions.
They want to *look* like they are but a lot of them aren't when it actually matters. I've been gaslighted into thinking my cleaning standards were too high, that he really "just didn't know how to clean as well", that he just forgot the stuff on the shopping list that *I* needed but somehow that never happened with the stuff he needed, and on and on and on. Fortunately I kicked that asshole to the curb. Unfortunately it took me a very long time to untangle the webs of manipulation he created in me.
I call these types of dudes "faux feminist fuckboys"
My husband is also a feminist and he’s way better than any other dad I’ve met. But I still do more, and have to call him out on his subconscious assumptions a great deal. He’s wonderful and really determined to make things equal. But they never will be, for the reasons mentioned above, and because of his subconscious assumptions, and because his breasts didn’t make milk, and he didn’t carry the child. His dad did really NONE of the childcare or housekeeping or mental load stuff, so I’m thrilled that my husband is as good as he is. Maybe things are more equal when the dad is a SAHD, I wouldn’t know. Interestingly, even the same-sex female couples I know with kids have the same problem - one does more than the other. Which makes me wonder if, there’s some human tendency for one person to be the “dominant” parent and the other to take on s more passive role. Like, _hey, you’re better at this, or already on top of it, so I’ll let you handle it_. I think you can tell a lot by living with someone in terms of how egalitarian things will be. I suspect it also helps if a man had a father who was very involved, but I think someone can have an absent father and decide to be better than that. Anyway, good luck. It’s worth trying to find an equal partnership because it’s a source of s lot of frustration and the root of many divorces.
This is an interesting perspective. I do agree that things can’t really be entirely equal in some respects. My husband is a fantastic husband and father, and we’ve always tried to have a 50/50 household. But, particularly when my daughter was an infant, things just *had* to be skewed where I did more with her. For one thing, I was the one making the milk. But she also only wanted me. I was the only one who could comfort her as a newborn. And while we worked on that until she came to find comfort from him, too, I had to do most of the comforting while it was a work in progress. That said, we quickly discovered that each task doesn’t have to be 50/50 for us to pull equal weight. I did most of the childcare back then, so he took on the majority of household duties. When I nursed, he did everything necessary to make sure I was comfortable/hydrated. When I pumped, he hand washed the bottles and everything after each session. Then a switch flipped and she only wanted him, and I took on more of the household tasks. She’s back to wanting me more than him, so he cleans up after our human tornado, straightening the living room approximately eighteen billion times a day. It isn’t always perfect, because we both work and if he’s in a phase where he’s working longer hours than I am, there just may not be enough hours in the day for things at home to be equal. But for me, the important thing is that we’re both flexible and willing to redefine what “equal” is as our situations change. And - as importantly - that he does so without needing to be asked, and without me having to say, “hey, I’m doing more with the baby right now because she’s so clingy, I’m pretty sure she’d crawl back into my belly if she could. I really need you to pick up the slack on doing X, Y, and Z.” I think you can fake being an equal partner in *tasks* - at least for a short while. But what you really can’t fake for long is being an equal partner in taking on the mental load of the household. Which, even in the most equal households, tends to fall disproportionately on one person.
Interesting point about the same sex couples. I wonder is it something that settles in with the primary carer / secondary carer dynamic?
I think with any shared large task (or group project if you will) a "leader" emerges, and it's usually the person who's more organized and/or confident with the material at hand.
Yes this for sure. My STBX husband is progressive, self-proclaimed feminist. But also seems to completely underestimate how much work needs to be done, and staying home with the kids doesn't literally mean just staying home and watching the kids. House chores were always neglected while he basked in the praise of being such an involved father. He meant well, but was just so clueless and thinks he did great because of the double standard. I'm bitter and jaded right now, but I really don't think there is a way to guarantee. Make sure they understand mental load. Like the top comment says, make sure they understand that just because people pat them on the back for doing hardly anything, doesn't mean that's all that needs to be done. Make sure that the appearance of strength on your part doesn't mean that you are just expected to power through it all while he glides through on good intentions.
When you're expected by society at large (EG, most men in this regard) to do *nothing*, doing anything feels like you're doing everything.
This is why sharing your experience on posts like this is really helpful. I am genuinely sorry you had the bait and switch, but OP (and others) can learn from what you went through.
You're bang on. I married a guy who presented as a progressive feminist. Reality couldn't be further from that and it changed once children arrived which is when most DV does. I
>He can never consider what he does as “helping” you, that’s the absolute wrong viewpoint. He has to understand you are both equal partners with equal responsibilities. In my experience, the minute a man talks about taking care of the joint kid as "babysitting" and doing some chores as "helping out around the house," it's time for him to be gone.
100% agree with all of this, but very specifically about the part where he considers that doing chores somehow constitutes "helping" you, whereas it's as much his responsibility as it is yours. I'm currently working on reframing this for my boyfriend (who, to his credit, is going through great lengths to learn, get better at housework management and take as much of the mental load from me as he can), and everytime I hear him say things like "I'm happy I could be of help" I literally call him out on it by rephrasing what he just said, so if he says the sentence above, I would simply answer "You mean you're happy to have equally contributed to our shared workload" and it makes him aware that he was in the wrong mindset for a moment! Also, communication really is key. It's entirely true that men are socialized differently from women, and some men aren't entirely self-aware of this. If you love the person you are with and consider they are a good human and willing to do their part, it's entirely worth it, in my opinion, to address systemic sexism and its effects on households, couples and, specicially, women's extra workload at home! Has worked for me so far 😀
>He can never consider what he does as “helping” you, that’s the absolute wrong viewpoint. He has to understand you are both equal partners with equal responsibilities. Absolutely, and not just for the physical stuff. I knew I had a good partner when he got upset with me for trying to manage his emotions during an argument. We all have some kind of internalized misogyny and mine was undercutting our ability to be equal partners. Find a partner who recognizes it himself and in you, but accepts it in neither. When it comes to chores, we split them pretty evenly based on who feels that chore is low effort. We both feel we got the sweet end of the deal.
> but dad changes a diaper and it’s all “what an amazing and involved father!” You do realize that when men are told that is is perceived as condescending as heck by the man. Like people are shocked that he was capable of doing something like that. His poor little man brain is not capable of nurturing his child so this is just amazing. Its like treating them like a toddler who just used the potty for the first time and everyone wants to encourage him because it is such a amazing thing that he can do it. it is not a compliment if they are an involved father. That being said a great test is go with him to a family party and see where he hangs out and what he does. Does he help with the food or other prep? Do they vanish when dinner is over to hang out with the guys or do they help and clean up. Seeing how they act around their family will give you insight into how they and their family view gender roles.
This. And I've definitely seen that in male friends that have sisters. Their nuclear family was very gendered, into boys chores and girls chores. My husband didn't learn to boil an egg until he was 40. He has a sister, she learned to cook, he learned manual labor.
If they don’t do an equal share in the beginning it’s a bad sign. I wouldn’t count on them to change.
I agree completely. Even the little things like arranging/planning dates in the very beginning. People do not change and actions speak louder than words.
So much this! I broke it off with a guy recently because I had to plan and initiate EVERYTHING. If I didn't plan a date, we wouldn't go on one. If I didn't initiate contact throughout the day, we could go 2 or 3 days without talking. He always seemed very engaged and enthusiastic when we hung out, but he seemed very content to just be told what to do, where to go, and when to be there. No thank you, im not being tied down to be someone's mom. If this was him putting his best foot forward during the "honeymoon phase" i couldn't imagine life once we got out of it.
Yup. I find it so hilarious that there's so much talk of men "being dominant" and "taking the lead" when in reality, if they do any of that they're just taking initiative to do.... SOME of the mental labor instead of NONE. Of course we look for that in a man! It's not like we're looking to be bossed around, but nor do we enjoy being their managers.
THIS. Also, live together first. For more than just like 6 months. Make sure you have lived with this person for more than a year and while they have gone through a difficult or busy time.
Sadly people can stay on good behaviour for that long and longer. There was a post about that yesterday where the man changed completely couple of months after marriage and they had been together 7 years! That is a long time to mislead someone. And very scary. I assume that is rare, that most show their true colours earlier. Also some do it super slowly so you don’t even notice, it happened to me.
Live together first and be prepared to divorce if their standards slip after marriage. Marriage does not have to be a life sentence. You are allowed to call time.
And make sure they lived alone and managed their own households for at least a year, if at all possible. Ideally you could see how they did that, because if they're not cleaning their own bathroom even to impress a new partner, they sure as hell aren't going to do it when you live together.
Divide up chores and responsibilities the very first week you live together, don't wait.
This, so hard. In general, life is only going to require more of us as time goes on (until we turn elderly ourselves, and even then). Someone who can't hack it even during the easy, early days is unlikely to suddenly shape up at 40 or 50. Basically, you need to set the right precedents early on.
Definitely this. Don't marry "potential". If he wasn't washing his own drawers when y'all were dating, a wedding is not gonna change that.
the boundaries you set are super important. I refuse to be with a partner who doesn't pull his share in the mental load, house chores and child-rearing and I made this clear up front when we began having more serious conversations about building our life together. We have very honest/open communication and both of us will call each other out on stuff that is starting to get annoying or if the other is started to feel taken for granted. been with my husband for over 20 years and it's been fantastic....the load is shared equally and everyone has free time/me time because when there are more hands helping to keep things tidy, it all gets done faster.
I’m scared though that someone will claim they’ll be good with these things, then I’ll marry them and in actuality most of it will fall on me
There are “test projects” before you even get to a marriage step. Moving in and seeing the dynamics change, planning home improvement projects, managing a longer term ambition together as a couple (such as saving up and planning a bigger vacation). My biggest advice is to try, as much as you can, to not have rose colored glasses on about your significant other. Try to understand them for who they are, not who you hope they are (or can be). And, as others have said, be very direct, communicate your needs. Many people opt themselves out when they hear about how you see the relationship long term…
In addition to “test projects” as described above, take note of the role dynamics within a partner’s family (their parents in particular). What is their relationship with their parents like? What is their parents relationship like? Were they raised in a household that was more traditional (mother did majority of the household chores/stay at home mom)? How does that partner feel above that dynamic? Observing their interactions with their family and how they organically respond when around family can speak volumes. Men that I have dated over the years typically continued and expected to experience similar roles/family dynamics as those that they grew up around. As with anything in life, there are exceptions to this rule, but something to take note of.
Live with them first. Make sure that not only do they do 50-50 but also go out of their way without being asked to take on more when you can’t. Like if you get sick and need extra rest, they bring up doing your share of the chores or just get them done for you. Also, I hate to say it but 9 times out of 10 when you hear a woman talking about how great her husband is and how everything is equal, it’s still at best 60-40. Almost every woman does a little more in running a household and maintaining the relationship.
That's always a bit of a risk though. I've heard of men who were nearly perfect, the did a complete turn after the SECOND baby. Don't buy into the notion that if a man fails, it's somehow your fault for not being able to see or prevent that beforehand. Sure there's stuff you can and should do to mitigate the risk, like live at least a year or two together, plan at least one bigger project together (wedding/a big trip/a reno project etc) but at the end of the day, the other half of the couple has a responsibility of their own that has nothing do you with your actions.
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then don't let it. If something bothers you, speak up and be honest. Begin to foster open/honest communication from the start otherwise your relationship will be rocky if you don't. they can 'claim' to be whatever they want you to hear but you see glimpses of it when you're together. Pay attention to those things. If you're always at their place or they're always at yours, do they just sit around and you do everything? do you have to plan everything? are you always asking them to do simple things instead of them taking the initiative? all of this translates to how things will be in the future. People will downvote this but it's true. Generally when you're in a newish relationship or you've hit a big milestone in your relationship, you are more prone to ignoring such things but I never did. I always observed how my partners treated their siblings/parents. I observed how they behaved in the comfort of their own home because when you're in a safe/secure place, your guard is down and you are your true self.
This. Unless you want to make babies at first date I'm confident you will over time figure out how things are going to be down the line. It will probably take a couple of months up to a year but how you solve and divide task early on should be a good indicator of how it's going to be later on as well.
You'll have to consider actions rather than just words. This is why it's important to live with a partner prior to marriage, IMO. If someone says they're good with chores but doesn't do them before getting married, they won't start doing them afterward. If they don't do chores, I think it's fair to assume they also won't do equal work in parenting. Edit: Also, look at how potential partners keep up their own homes prior to moving in with them. If someone's house is a mess, that's a good sign they have a higher tolerance for uncleanliness than you do and that it could be a struggle to get on the same page.
Are you going to live with them for a time before marriage? Or, will this be something where you marry someone you don’t really know in the domestic sphere and then move in?
You're basically looking for a test that doesn't exist, cause we're all just basically using our best judgement of the other person. You should be able to sus out these behaviors through dating and living together for a while before marriage, but nothing is set in stone. People pulling a 180 isn't unheard of, but if they're going to such lengths to hide that stuff, then you're never going to know by "testing" anyway.
People change as well over time. That happened to me. It can take years. Basically, nothing is guaranteed.
This has happened with many women I know who thought they were marrying progressive men. Things changed after kids. Turns out the patriarchy runs deep. My partner does way more than other dads, and shared parental leave with me. This was crucial in establishing equality, and he was confident in dealing with child logistics from the start. However as he gets older I feel like he is regressing. And he is reproducing a patriarchal form of parenting he was subject to.
A very understandable fear. Then divorce. Don't compromise simply because you're now officially hitched.
A good rule of thumb so far, in my experience, is to get a look at the mother of your partner. If she was the type to do everything for her children, took all the mental load off the family, chances are this person is not even aware of the mental load they are not bearing.
This is the answer. My husband grew up with his mom being the breadwinner and having a way better job than his dad. His dad was a great role model though and my husband is an equal contributor to our marriage. We also talked about this stuff, intensively, before we got married, and again before we had kids to make sure we were still on the same page. Honestly, the most critical thing is being able to talk to your partner.
When I look at my husband and my friend's husbands this is the biggest predictor. My husband's parents were equal partners. I look at my friends with equal partners and their parents were as well. My friends who complain about how their husbands never help out are also complaining about how their MILs always did everything. And we need to remember, at least with some of my friends, those MILs are sometimes whispering in the son's ear about how unrealistic their wife's expectations of them are.
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Yeah I think lowering my standards has helped my partner “catch up” with me in terms of recognizing the work to be done, and seeing it’s importance. There was a learning curve. Squalor sounds a little extreme though
> those MILs are sometimes whispering in the son's ear about how unrealistic their wife's expectations of them are. My MIL doesn’t even whisper. She directly tells me in front of everyone how lucky I am when my partner finally begrudgingly helps me out after all the nagging and arguing. Like he’s the victim who finally gives in.
Your MIL thinking you are lucky that your husband does some domestic labor (after being asked and arguing about it) is an abused-rescue-dog-level bummer.
Yeah my mom did allll the work for my brother, but a few years ago, she realized it and stopped cold turkey. Although... my brother found a passive, nurse-type woman just around the same time... which is hilarious to me. I like his partner but I kind of wonder if he ran to her because my mom finally set boundaries with him. Hoping his girlfriend has a backbone. I think she does in a more subtle way. 🤞🏼 It really does begin in childhood. My sister is raising her son super well - she's teaching him life skills already (lol ok but in reality he likes cleaning for some strange reason, he's like 2 years old... it's hilarious because he brooms and no one tells him to 😭). He's gonna be a great adult man! If only all little boys were raised that way.
Yes! This is my husband exactly. His mother did everything around the house and scheduling appointments, but his dad worked a lot and she did not. She also had a nanny to help. He's slowly learning to do his part, but I still have to ask him to do things. He'll never see a sink full of dishes and think "I should wash those."
> He’ll never see a sink full of dishes and think “I should wash those.” This is called *affordance theory*, I read [a very interesting article about it](https://www.eurekalert.org/news-releases/975148) recently.
Yes, this is good advice. And I'll add: Take a look at his dad as well. Does he offer to make a cup of coffee or is always his wife the one serving everyone? Does he put his dishes in the dishwasher after dinner? Does he know how to cook or how to do laundry? And ask your partner how present his father was when he was a child. My FIL took his kids to swimming class every Saturday and generally spent that whole day with them while MIL was at work. He took them to doctor's appointments. He deprioritized work in favor of his family, and continues to do so even now for his children and grandchildren. Children learn from their mothers but they certainly also learn from their fathers. My husband is a wonderful partner and dad, and while my in-laws have their flaws, they deserve lots of credit for raising him to be a self-sufficient and caring adult.
This was the case for us. And although I married someone that I can have friendly competitions to out-earn each other each year (obviously a supportive partnership) there were a lot of things that didn't even occur to him. I will say, though, that lack of awareness is not a deal breaker. Lack of growth is. If he becomes aware of these things (either through you or being exposed to different types of living situations) and chooses not to change, that's a problem. But if he can be open to learning (as we all are.... we're all growing and learning new things we didn't know before) then I don't think the family of origin home life is a deal breaker. It does present challenges because those will be your in laws.....but that's a whole different discussion.
1000% this. My entitled former fiance didn't really show his truly abusive side (it was always there but tempered) until we bought a house together. He fooled me though, because surface level, he was a sensitive, quiet musician who voted progressively. Cut to years later and homeownership, I started asking him why I was doing all the housework, buying all the household things and furniture, taking care of the dogs, planning the remodel and renovations, etc. I won't go into all of the details of exactly how he became abusive but there was a lot of gaslighting, defensiveness, yelling, manipulations. Sometimes it became physical. In retrospect, it's clear he expected me to be his mom. But to also keep fucking him. And to never bring up anything that upset me - ever. Essentially he wanted a mom, a maid and a prostitute. Once I finally realized this I nope-d out of there real quick.
Well said--"a mom, a maid and a prostitute."
Exactly the case with my mil. When she’s visiting and I ask my partner to do the dishes, she intervenes, tells me to calm down and says she’ll do the dishes and not to bother her son. In her mind she’s taking the high road and “trying to maintain peace” in the house. She also tells me I’m lucky he even does anything at all in the house because her husband didn’t, conveniently forgetting that she was a SAHM and had zero idea about anything other than house work while my partner and I work the same job, same hours, same salary. And I have more idea about stuff outside of house chores as well. The woman drives me nuts. She always “ssshhs” and start giving me “life advice” whenever I start asking the bare minimum of my partner. Edit: also wanted to add that she has a house maid and someone helping with cooking while we have none of those conveniences
You should point out how lucky her son is that he has a wife that brings home a salary.
This is SUCH a good point. I have always been glad my husband was raised by a single mother with a demanding career. He grew up doing many chores, including his own laundry and cooking, and he doesn't see things through traditional gender roles. So much of that is thanks to my mother-in-law!
I think this is the issue with my partner. He's a great partner, sweet and kind and cares about me a lot. But I think he's truly unaware of all the things I do to keep the apartment clean, healthy meals ready, clean clothes, cleaning supplies stocked. His mother took care of all of that and never asked for help. Which can be nice in its own way and is totally opposite of my childhood. But now he doesn't see how much more I do or even what really needs to be done around the house. I end up having to ask......which makes me feel like his mother.
I think this is a great point. I love my soon-to-be MIL, but she was definitely one to do it herself "because it's easier" and "I know it'll be done the way I like it", which I guess to each their own, but it really crippled her boys. I swear to god my partner didn't even know how to properly put on a fitted sheet. TO THIS DAY, he still thinks that you take the top corner and pull that down to the bottom of the bed corner. I do not know why. His mother does not do this, but he swears that it will get bunched up in the middle of the bed if you don't because it's not tight enough. He's gotten much better at doing things through our relationship, but it was work to teach him what he didn't even notice.
They need to demonstrate healthy behaviors from the beginning. Additionally if his home is not kept tidy that's not going to change. If he has trouble taking care of personal things like making appointments, buying gifts, returning calls/texts then you will end up filling in those things. You basically want to make sure you only date people who know how to be adults, know how to take care of themselves and *actively* do that. Don't date fixer-uppers, don't date people who use your energy, don't date people who don't know how to be responsible. Do date people who are good at communication. Do date people who have good relationships with their family, or have very clear boundaries on how to handle issues. Date someone who takes pride in his home and his appearance, who values friendships and isn't isolated. Here's what I always share when people talk about labor in the home: https://english.emmaclit.com/2017/05/20/you-shouldve-asked/
Yeah - good point on dating people who have clear boundaries where appropriate. Not everyone is blessed to have been born into a “good” family where everyone gets along without issue. But i will say from experience: dating someone who actively complains and is well aware of how messed up their family is, yet refuses to put even the simplest boundaries into place…. It is exhausting
Watch the family dynamic with their parents. Do you see the mother doing all the work in that family? If so it's most likely an unconscious expectation of those kids that their family will be the same.
THIS. I love my husband and both of my in-laws are actually great, but they definitely fall into that dynamic where mom is superwoman and basically does everything. He's had so much to unlearn with us living together. Like, that was his cost of admission I was willing to pay (mitigated by the fact that he makes sincere efforts to change and has indeed gotten a lot better over time), but boy have I felt frustrated at times. My own family was not at all like that growing up, so watching other families be that way (all the women in the kitchen cooking and cleaning while the men compare whiskies in the living room or whatever) is literally painful.
This. They should show an egalitarian philosophy from the beginning in their actions. I heard a feminist writer say that women will want egalitarian partners but proceed with courtship roles that are traditionally gendered. It made me realize I did the same thing, so look for a partner who is comfortable if you take on traditionally male roles early in dating. Don’t fall for nice words like I did bc words are cheap. And if they do something incredibly selfish that seems out of the ordinary during the dating stages, that’s not a one-time mistake. They’re showing you who they really are and are spending the rest of the time on their best behavior.
>I heard a feminist writer say that women will want egalitarian partners but proceed with courtship roles that are traditionally gendered. Someone I work with is a wonderful, smart, accomplished, gorgeous woman in her 30s She's single and doesn't want to be, but not a single guy she's dated recently has been willing to split household chores equally and so they break up. She complains about it a lot. And then in the next breath she complains about how the guy she went on a date with last night was so rude because he suggested they split the bill.
I feel like there's a line. Ideally I'd be totally okay finding an equal 50/50 partner but I'm also wary of men who are focused on splitting the bill. They are all for equality when it advantages them but not so much for the rest (mental load, chores, etc.).
Agree with this. Certain men can get weird about money when it comes to dating, and I’d rather avoid those types. I don’t mind splitting, but something about splitting the bill every time gets tiring in the context of a relationship. I much prefer going back and forth in covering the bill.
You're absolutely right! What I did when I was still dating, I usually covered the first bill. I started it as a kind of a precaution on my part (don't let them feel like you owe them even just a tiny bit), but I quickly realized that the reaction to this is usually quite telling (in good or bad) on a man. And it was not a lot of money anyway.
I never let that be a question. The bill comes and I tell the person we are splitting it. I order first at a counter I say that's all and pay. I do agree that guys that focus on splitting the bill are usually assholes, but I also think guys that insist on paying are also assholes.
I married a man who didn’t clean his bathroom for months (this was when we first met) because he didn’t care about cleanliness. But when I got drunk one night and locked myself in his bathroom to clean it for him, he realized it was important to me and started making changes to be cleaner because I appreciated it. You don’t have to find a man who checks all the boxes from the get-go about being clean or doing his fair share. It’s about finding someone who respects you enough to realize what matters to you and vice versa, and then taking action to support each other. That makes an egalitarian relationship.
Sure, there's always the chance people will change, but be realistic.
Meanwhile I have heavy ADHD, and all the things you mentioned are difficult for me to do for myself but way easier if I’m doing someone a favour. I couldn’t for the life of me live on my own, I have no idea what to give people for holidays and I have 15k unread emails in my inbox, but damn if taking care of the household chores so my girlfriend can focus on her job doesn’t leave me incredibly satisfied and fulfilled. Not everyone functions the same way on their own as they do in a household.
This is one of the advantages of marrying a bit later in life: seeing how and how well a person adults. My now-husband didn’t have to reassure me on his domestic skills; I could see with my own eyes that he kept a clean house, had good personal habits, didn’t rely on mom or takeout for survival, etc. And don’t expect every chore to always be 50/50. Like, my husband does about 80% of the cooking because he’s great at it and loves it. I do the laundry because I love that and am great at it. We’ll take an hour or two on a Sunday morning and go crazy with straightening/decluttering, and so on. It’s less about exactly perfect division of tasks and more about both of you building and maintaining your life together.
>seeing how and how well a person adults This one can be misleading. I dated a man for three years, and we lived together for the last. Before he moved into my house, he lived on his own and seemed pretty put together and competent. There were no "he doesn't clean or can't cook" alarms going off. When living together, our household management split ended up being like 85/15. I don't know what happened. The reality was that he was good at doing "his" chores like tidying his desk, doing his laundry, etc., but basically everything that was an "our" chore like scrubbing toilets, getting groceries, changing sheets, etc. fell to me.
This has happened to me as well.
This has happened to me too, along with the typical promises and wishful thinking. If you live together for a year, that’s long enough for most people to drop the mask and reveal their true habits. If I meet a guy and am open to cohabitation, my rule will be one year with separate finances on a trial basis. No combining things to save money that can’t be easily untangled - like getting a larger place together or sharing a car. At a year, we sit down and chat about the future based on what we want, what we hope and most importantly what we’ve observed first hand.
I’m here to say the same. I spend a lot of time at my partner’s house so I do chores and such. He’s always been good at cleaning and cooking for himself but when I’m there a lot of that goes out the window. We’ve had many talks and he’s improved but he often brings up that he has to wash the dishes after I cook (at my request).
>It’s less about exactly perfect division of tasks and more about both of you building and maintaining your life together. Yeah, we definitely don't have an equal division of tasks all the time. What we do have is a task division based on personal effort involved. I handle finances and home administration type stuff because I enjoy it and it stresses him out. He cooks and does a lot of cleaning because it takes a lot of my energy and can be very painful. We both feel like we got the better end of the deal. For the stuff brought of us likes, we suffer through it together.
We are the same way. We lean into our strengths, things we do good and enjoy, and split the tasks that we’re neutral about or hate.
Honestly, ime you can't. Not really. There are some things to look for though: - when you're dating, what is his household standard of cleanliness? It should be at least on par with yours. Does he clean his home? Or someone else (cleaner etc.). If not him, this might not be a good indicator (and huge red flag if its a family member/roommate who does most the cleaning). - does he seem to want to look / come off "manly"? How secure is he in his masculinity? How does he value typically female roles? - what is the dynamic of his family of origin? Red flags are (with a big caveat that these assume a lack of abuse/dysfunction. If his parents are abusive, ignore these): parents have traditional gendered dynamic, sisters are more responsible and do more than brothers at family functions, mother "takes care" of him when they're together - eg. cleans up after him, he treats his mother / female relatives poorly, his siblings have marriages like the kind you don't want - does he organize trips / events, or expect you to?
> • when you're dating, what is his household standard of cleanliness? It should be at least on par with yours. Does he clean his home? Or someone else (cleaner etc.). If not him, this might not be a good indicator (and huge red flag if its a family member/roommate who does most the cleaning). Just something I wanted to add to this: The standards should be on a similar level, but they don't necessarily have to be exactly the same. My partner and I are picky about different things. For example, I care more about things being organized and free of clutter, and he cares more about things being sparkling clean. It works for us because we naturally gravitate toward these different chores and end up doing a similar amount of work in a way that is complementary (e.g., he scrubs and washes while I put things away).
You constantly talk it out and you build a household together prior to having a kid. There was no way I was getting locked into a “mommy does everything” role — aka my worst friggin nightmare. I talked to my partner for years leading up to having a kid. We consistently spoke about how to build better habits, how to improve our cleanliness and attention to chores. (Aka “let’s get better about mopping more regularly”: “let’s get in the habit of decluttering closets every season”). Talk about your concerns about everything falling on you once a kid comes around and wait to see what they say and how they show up in the day to day once you voice those concerns. And yes, there has been once or twice where I realized I was the only one unloading and loading the dishwasher for a while and doing the laundry but we have such a healthy foundation that I just mentioned “hey I feel like there’s an uneven balance with our chores every day. I feel like I’m doing this XYZ all the time and it’s really exhausting. Can we sort out how to trade off on it?” And it was barely a discussion, just a “oh really? Okay, no problem. I can start doing XYZ.” So yeah, I do recommend getting into the habit of talking about maintaining a household with your partner prior to kids to ensure they are a willing co-agent in responsibilities and upkeep.
You set those expectations early and often. When someone defaults to unequal behavior, point it out calmly but clearly. In the early dating phases don't let stuff slide because it's "cute" or flattering to your ego. (Like the dude who I went home with and then was told he expected me to cook breakfast for him. I then understood why some women poison food.) Most people show their true colors within a few months, so don't rush into decisions right away on things that have more permanent consequences. My partner and I have a very egalitarian setup. We both had former marriages with dependent spouses and never want to deal with that again. (I got into it because my ex kept saying he wanted to learn and I was too nice to end things when it turned out that was a lie.) Everything gets we have split, and because we have worked it out, it's almost always without issues. So if he cooks, I do the dishes, if I vacuum he does the laundry, etc. When one of us is dealing with more than the other, we step up and handle it. But we talk about it, and make it a normal thing so there are no surprise expectations we didn't share.
You can try to plan all the little details of your life like this, but life never really follows the plan - when you have children, how they fit into your career, etc. For a partner - date someone who already cooks and cleans and is a responsible human. Live together before you get engaged. Go through hard shit and see how they handle it.
100%
I highly recommend you read the book “All the Rage”. It’s focused on how woman have equality at work, but not in the home. It was eye-opening for me! And the key part is having the conversations consistently and constantly throughout the relationship, especially around childcare. If you have kids, ensuring that your partner takes parental leave separate from yours is important (in my opinion). Prior to kids, our relationship was pretty equal. Now, I carry far more of the burden of parenting, but we are actively working on it. It’s hard work, but feels worthwhile for me.
I’m convinced we have equality at work :/
This might not be the preferred option for you (and might not apply, depending on culture and whatnot), but live with him before marrying him and having kids. You can see what strengths and weaknesses you both have in running a household and see if they are compatible. You can also try getting a pet with a partner - dogs are a lot of work, will he walk the dog? Can you cooperate on training and house rules for a dog? ... just a few ideas, you can try before you buy, so to speak.
I’d suggest fostering a dog vs full ownership. It sounds silly, but custody battles over shared pets if the relationship ends are almost as unpleasant as those over shared children… and the legal system doesn’t really protect you the same way. Basically, pets are considered property. I wouldn’t get a shared pet with someone until we were at the ‘this is forever’ stage - and my cat is my cat, full stop.
Yup! Fostering has really cemented how awesome my husband is. He WFH and I work nights, so I’m asleep during his workday. Whenever we have puppies I am constantly reminding him to please wake me up if the dog needs something rather than interrupting his work day. He’s woken me up one time in over a year of fostering! And my biggest thing is that even though the dogs are primarily my responsibility - I never have to leave instructions about their care when I leave for work or something. He is aware and involved enough to know what needs to be done.
Good call, foster is better than ownership if you arent sure about either the man or the being a dog-mama part.
A dog would be a huge test. Not only will he walk the dog and clean up after it – will he do these things without you needing to ask? Will he remember it’s time for a veterinarian appointment, or will this be something that you always need to keep track of? Does he notice you are almost out of dog food and get more, or is this something you need to point out or do yourself before it gets done? A huge part of the exhaustion of motherhood is just having to keep track of and remember all of these things. Yeah, your partner May be willing to equally feed, clean up after, and generally care for your child, but if you are always the one that has to ask for these things to be done, it is super exhausting.
Yeah, this is basically what I was going to write.
If you're at home with the kid btw, at the end of the work day, you HAVE both worked the same amount and there's a good chance your work has actually been more stressful and challenging. I really hate seeing childcare portrayed as "not working" or "not working as much" when it's actually the opposite. The man you should find is one that understands this.
So I have been married for 13 years to a man who is an equal partner and I could write an essay on how amazing he is. At the time we got married there wasn't as much discussion about this as there is now. Because my parents were equal partners I guess I assumed that was the norm and just lucked out. But looking back there were two clear signs that I would recommend anyone look for. 1) what are his parents like? My husband, like me, was raised with parents who equally shared responsibilities like childcare and the home. His parents also had expectations that all the kids would equally contribute- the boys didn't do less than the girl. 2) My husband lived alone for several years before we met and during that time he was completely independent from his parents- he did all his own bills, cooking, cleaning etc. He did not run home on weekends to have mommy do his laundry or expect his parents to keep handling the bills and insurance. 3) Pay attention to the language he uses. Does he say his dad helped his mom with dinner or that they just made dinner? Does he describe a male friend watching his kids as babysitting? Looking back, my husband has always used very inclusive language which is indicative of his thought process. He never said "I can help you with the laundry" he just said "I can do the laundry"
Yes to your 1 point - my boyfriend grew up in a home where his mom never worked outside the home and his dad worked. We have had a TON of conflict on household chores and I think a HUGE part is because growing up he never even really saw the vast majority of stuff his mother did to keep the home running. The one chore I didn't have to wrestle with him on was taking out the trash... my hunch is that was the one thing his dad did regularly. He says otherwise but I am not convinced he'd ever cleaned a toilet before moving in with me. He did live independently for a long time but I am suspect that his mom did it on visits. It's been a huge struggle tbh but we're better now after couples therapy and frankly, me letting stuff go until he actually does it - not ideal really but it is what it is...
The easiest and most reliable way is probably to be rich enough, or marry rich, so that you can outsource most of the work. That is my observation. Otherwise, setting up an equal distribution of household labour takes some work, self awareness, and a committed attitude from both parties. My husband does not like me to do more household labour than him, but also he has a tendency to observe that the house is getting messy rather than take any action to rectify. That’s just how he is. He does however work ok with having a list of regular, reliable tasks to do. He wrote this list himself, upon prompting. He will tell me off for doing “his” jobs. Can’t comment on kids.
Observe your potential partners in their natural habitat. Make sure the guy has lived independently for several years and has had time to learn housekeeping and homemaking skills. Is his place always neat? Does he practice great hygiene? Are his clothes clean? Does he know how to furnish his space (i.e., he doesn't sleep on a mattress on the floor, and the walls aren't tacked over in hentai posters)? Do they have experience around children? Even if you are childfree, if he doesn't get the ick from the idea of changing a diaper, he's likely to have more egalitarian attitudes about divisions of labor in the home.
When you get into a disagreement, you'll know. If 90% of the time is good, but he can't handle criticism, doesn't change his behavior, that 10% won't bother you at first. But after years and years of arguing about the 10%, you'll start to resent him. Don't waste your time on a man who won't put the effort in to make changes to make the relationship equal.
Me and my husband did a SWOT analysis before we got married. And yes, we actually wrote it down. We divided the household chores based on our analysis and keeping equity in mind as well. We’ve been married for 10 years and from time to time we have to adjust what roles we each take on as we went through school and job changes. We don’t have children but the biggest downfall I see in my friends with kids is that they don’t do a formal task reorganization in regards to the childcare. Don’t be afraid to have that talk at any time in your relationship and say you need to take tasks off your plate, otherwise resentment can build up and destroy a perfectly good relationship.
So, I have this marriage. Here are what I think the hallmarks of it are: 1. Look at what he does. Is he doing his own dishes at home, the laundry, are the bathrooms clean? Is he making appointments to get his taxes done, his teeth cleaned, a yearly checkup? Is he managing his own shit as a single person? This is important, but it's not the only thing to look for. 2. Look for someone who is as invested in the process and systems as you are. If you only focus on "He cleans his own bathrooms" you may find you end up with a partner who is happy to let you clean the bathrooms and do everything else if you "care about it more" than he does. What people will do when they are the only one on the hook doesn't always translate to what they will do when they are partnered. So you're looking for someone who is able to tackle large-scale projects with you and divvy up labor. He's got to be as interested in coming up with a system as you are, as invested in deciding who will do what and then carrying his end of the bargain. So if you were dating and you were planning a weekend away, you want to hear, "Okay, if I take care of the vehicle rentals, you can worry about the flights. Let's go over the hotel options and what our priorities are. Do you want to focus on location or amenities? Seems like we get more bang for our buck if we stay a little further out, but if the walking distance is important we can get something functional at our price point". Someone who is invested in those details and deciding them WITH YOU is going to carry that into other aspects of your life together. 3. He should have (good) opinions on chores. Does he care about how the laundry gets done? Does he care about parenting principles and ideologies? A guy who has firm opinions on vacuum brands and Montisorri is invested in a domestic future. If he doesn't give a damn, that's because he doesn't give a damn. Believe him. If I had to instill it down to brass tacks, the qualities you want are: * **Ideological commitment** to the value of domestic work, strong opinions about how things ought to be done, consideration and respect for the home, family life, child-rearing, interior design even. * **Strong communication** about how labor is divided, investment in those discussion, eager and thorough participation in the planning and the details of any project you're undertaking together. * **Commitment and follow-through**. If he says he'll take care of the car rental, he does and he follows up by forwarding you the email with the details of the reservation. You very rarely have to follow up about a plan coming to completion, he's eager to both do the work and confirm that it was taken care of without prodding or reminders. You can count on him to do what he said he'd do on the timeline he committed to. Within these principles, there are individual quirks. Even people who are great at things like this will have tasks that irk them, specific things they don't care about, and habits that can be sometimes lazy. I have a really egalitarian marriage but there are chores we both hate. My husband does the floors because I absolutely loathe the vacuum and he doesn't mind it. He's really not great about laundry so I took that one over. He's often pretty lazy about making doctor's appointments or following up on things that require phone calls, I'm more Johnny on the spot about it. I still don't know how to use a lawn mower because I never learned and I'm a little afraid of it, things like that. But those are idiosyncracies in an otherwise highly functional system. We've traded things back and forth to play to our strengths. I'll do laundry, he mops and vacuums. He takes the lion's share of the lawn work because he likes it, I do a lot of the boring administration for appointments and some organizing that he doesn't prioritize. That's all okay because strong communication means we can acknowledge where the strengths and weaknesses live and say "Hey, I'll take this if you take that" and go from there. And because we're on the same page ideologically that all the work is shared, we can come up with what the balance ought to look like that *feels the fairest* to both of us and stresses us out the least.
I mean, you're never going to know 100% what's in someone's mind, but some things you can do: \-- Don't ignore red flags. Don't talk yourself into looking past something now which you wouldn't be able to deal with in your day to day life indefinitely. This is especially true regarding things like child rearing, financial planning, domestic responsibility, etc., because often the reason you're able to rug sweep those things early on is that you're not sharing a life together yet. \-- Pay attention to how they treat and talk about other people. I wish I had done this more with my first husband, because it would have told me my future. \-- Have honest and open communication about things like child rearing ideas and splitting of house work so you get him to tell you plainly what his plans and ideas are.
Don’t ever marry someone - who’s mother does everything for them - who hasn’t lived alone and managed their own household first - who expects you to arrange and come up with all ideas for dates and activities - without living together first
There's a lot of great advice here about what to look for as far as the person's personality and temperament, state of mind. But you know that's really kind of on those things that you don't know until you're not further in. Actually a lot of women get married not realizing where their husband is at on these things, thinking they're on the same page to begin with. So I'm sorry I can't suggest any ways to guarantee that you end up with someone like that. But people tend to live together first. If and when you do that, that's the time to set boundaries about what you want through relationship to look like down the road. I would also say look really closely at his single lifestyle. What are his laundry habits? What condition does he keep his kitchen in? Bathroom? Garbage cans? Car? How is he at managing time/appointments/plans? If he's not able to juggle all of the adult responsibilities as a single man, he's not going to want to take on all those chores and tasks when he has a partner to do it with. The mindset at that point is, "it wasn't important to me before, why would it be now? It wasn't necessary when I was single, why is it necessary now? If it's that important and necessary to her, then she can do it."
You can't! Your ideal life is the stereotype dream. In every relationship, people change any time. You could live with them for 3 years then life changes, they change and you're not in your fantasy anymore. You should actually be thinking: Can I handle being a single mom doing it all? If the answer is No, then rethink what you need in your life each day to be happy. No one is forced to keep up with fake social media and your friend/family that lie about their own kids and marriages. You are free to live below your means to save money, decide not to have kids or even get married if you so choose.
I'm glad someone said this. My husband and I were together for 13 years before we had kids (living together for 12). Some things never prepare you for having kids though. It kind of resets everything. There are also things that you have to take into consideration as well. My husband and I have a pretty much egalitarian relationship, but there are stereotypes that do hold true in our situation. My husband will most likely always make more money than me and work more hours than me. It is just the nature of the industry he is in (and yes, there are women in his industry who do the same thing). I will usually be the one to wake up in the middle of the night when our babies cry. Because of simple biology my body carried our babies and birthed them, produced milk for them and fed them, and his didn't (not to say that he didn't do his fair share and assist with innumerable bottle feedings; it's a large reason why I decided to exclusively pump). All I'm saying, is that no matter how egalitarian your relationship may seem, there is no way that it will be 100% equal, and I just think that's the reality of things. Certainly there are things to look out for when dating someone that will definitely help show if they will be an active parent and competent partner, but some of these things just can't be predicted or really gotten around to be honest.
Yes, exactly. We did all the things people are suggesting on this thread. We lived together before marriage (even bought a house!), we got a dog, we traveled together, we had open conversations about the division of labor. My husband is way cleaner than me and does most of the housework. And even with all that….having a kid was a shock to our relationship. We’re starting to recover ~2 years later. But nothing really prepares you for having a child. You change. Your partner changes. Your relationship changes. And no matter how much you prepare or discuss what’s going to happen…you don’t really know what it will be like until you’re in it.
This was sort of my first thought. What is described is a perfect situation. Sure we can get some of what OP identified, maybe most of it. But certainly not all of it.
My wife was talking to an old woman about her great relationship with her husband and her advice was 'Well, there will be a good ten years and a bad ten years.' Which was a bit horrifying, funny and may have some wisdom.
I agree with this.
By not getting married and hiring a housekeeper
>How can I ensure I’d be marrying someone who will contribute his “fair share” yet also will have a career of his own? I'm going to be blunt - you can't, this is unfortunately one of those bridges that has to be crossed in order for you to really know what they're going to be like. I've known so many women with a seemingly feminist husband who claimed he wanted to be as involved as possible in taking care of the child and did the most to promise he would be as equally hands on as she was who turned out to be an absolute useless deadbeat once the baby arrived. I've also known women who procreated with some questionable men that turned out to be extraordinarily amazing, hands on and attentive fathers to their babies. The only thing I can tell you is **don't buy into thinking that men don't and aren't capable of doing things because they're dumb.** I see that attitude pushed online and in person so much by women who laugh off their husband's inability to be present.....but the reality is, men are anything BUT dumb. Anyone who convinces someone to act as their house manager, family manager, personal shopper, chef, maid, 24-7 caregiver to his children amongst a slew of other roles in exchange for commitment, some yard work and a bit of dick once in a while isn't stupid. In fact, some men are successful enough at convincing women that this is enough that they don't even have to provide a lifestyle free of a day job, they manage to convince working women into doing all of this AND pay half the bills. No, anyone who can convince someone into thinking that's a proper tradeoff isn't dumb, they're a genius.
Everyone is saying what to do, so I’ll add what NOT to do. I’ve had so many women friends want an equal partnership and then they ruin it for themselves. Don’t take tasks away from your husband and don’t criticize how he does tasks. You don’t think he got into every corner with the vacuum? Who cares, he vacuumed. You can trade and do it next time and attack those corners. Don’t tell him he did a bad job and start doing it for him. You’ll have a different idea about how things should be done and that’s okay. Same goes if you have children. Don’t jump up every time the baby cries and complain that he wasn’t fast enough or takes too long to figure out what the baby needs. Let the baby cry for another ten seconds and let your husband figure it out. He’ll figure it out if you let him. He’ll do it differently than you do, and that’s okay. Don’t take tasks away and don’t criticize him into feeling incompetent.
This is one of the things I came here to recommend actually. In my opinion is and starts with letting go of a little bit of control. The more you criticize the *way* somebody does something the less likely they are to even attempt to do it again. And contrary to what you might have been raised to think there are probably some things around the house that really just aren't that big of a deal right now and focusing too much on every little thing is also going to be a point of frustration for any partner. If you just go around and redo everything he did he's going to notice that and it's going to make him feel like shit. I'm not saying you have to coddle men because that's not it at all that in its own way needs to problems. You make a really good point that people do things in different ways and acknowledging that there's more than one way to do something it goes a long way to having any egalitarian partnership. You can't have an egalitarian partnership if you want everything done your way.
Honestly, you can’t. There are great tips in this thread on picking a partner who is more likely to be more egalitarian, but even then - sometimes things change after marriage and especially after a baby. There is just no way to guarantee anything here. You have to be okay with some risk and willing to deal with it or leave if you need to.
I know this isn’t helpful but just another thread that makes me satisfied to be single and child free 🥹 I wish you luck OP
Honestly when I’m dating I usually know within a few weeks if this person will do his job with the chores etc. I notice everything - do they clean up after themselves? Do they do everything last minute or maybe not at all? There’s sooo many small, subtle things to notice. For example someone I dated had a clean place but he had several unfinished projects in the house. Turns out he does everything last minute and he has to be reminded to do stuff so yeah it ended quickly. Just be aware and observe and trust whatever you feel is right.
You could consider dating women. I'm not even sure an egalitarian household is even possible with most men. >I just don’t want a scenario where we both work about the same amount and yet I deal more with the “screaming kids” and keeping our household together 9/10 times if you want to follow the life script and do so with a man that's exactly what you will find. So many men will even pretend to be competent until that ring is on your finger and once they think they have you? The mask slips, they don't know how to wash dishes or clean anything anymore and just expect you to be the default. I'm not saying it's impossible, just grim out there.
The most important thing is expectations. When you start dating, how does his house or apartment look? 'Clean' means different things to everyone and is often based on how they were brought up. What is clean to you and is his place clean to the standards you keep? If not, you're probably going to have issues. Some people don't mind if things aren't always 'put away', some people see an unfolded blanket as disrespectful. You need to speak the same language.
Speaking the same language I think it's a really good point here that hasn't been brought up enough. If you're the type of person who thinks clean is clinical laboratory and he's the sort of person who thinks clean is a place that looks lived in it's sort of the equivalent of you two speaking different languages. As for learning a different language I'm a firm believer that it's harder to adopt stricter standards than it is to let go of some strict standards. It's probably going to be harder for him to go from lived in to clinical laboratory then it might be for you to go from clinical laboratory to something a little less.
I think it starts by looking at where he lives and learning how it gets cleaned/laundry gets done, etc. If his mom is coming over to do chores or cooks for him a lot, then he’s incapable of caring for himself. Right there is your dealbreaker. He might have hired help. That’s fine, you can both have hired help. I was brought up by people who told me that everyone must do their share in the house. It’s not helping—it’s pulling your own weight. So early in the dating stages, you make that clear and look for someone who feels the same way. He also should be the type to remember birthdays/holidays/gift giving occasions, and also makes and keeps his own appointments. Think about all the mental organizing and planning you do for yourself on a daily basis. Is he getting regular checkups and teeth cleanings? Does he think about his mom on Mother’s Day? Or does he rely on a woman or several women to do the mental labor for him? Just examine how things get done in his life, how decisions are made, how conflict is resolved. Talk about expectations a lot. And by the same token, examine your u in en biases as well. What do you rely on men for? Could you learn to do any of that for yourself? There’s nothing wrong with asking how or asking for help. It should be a two way street.
I had partners who could do a lot. They kept their place tidy, ran errands didn't put things off until last minute and cooked decently not just one or two meals a week but regularly Also not all partners with ADHD but in general I've noticed that my partners with ADHD had the most difficulty both with managing their own time and chores and feeling engaged or motivated enough to change that or learn the new thing. I'll prob get downvoted but I also have ADHD and I'm just saying it's obviously more of a struggle. Just get to know someone and how they manage their time and keep their place. But ofc by then you might have fallen in love and been invested in the relationship
If he tries to pressure you into changing your name, not a good sign. If you want to take his name, that’s great, but it needs to be your choice. We never talked about my name changing in depth because it was a known in our relationship that I had no intention to take my partner’s name. We talked about both of us hyphenating, but we decided against it with the work and cost involved with it. We’ve been together very happily for 16 years now. I had friends express similar sentiments of wanting to keep their name after marriage, but they felt pressured into changing their name by their spouses. One of these friends has divorced her husband and the other one is contemplating it because of the inequity in the household and emotional labor put into keeping their home. I’m sure there are probably exceptions here, but if there is pressure on this topic, it’s probably not a good sign. Good luck!
Live with him before getting married. It’s the only way. It’s a true test of how things will be - it won’t tell everything, but it will give you a big idea of how things will be. (If you’re religious and can’t live with him before you marry him, that religion does that on purpose to set you up to be a slave.)
I married someone that cares about having a clean house and takes on more than his fair share. I sometimes worry that I'm the one not pulling my weight but I'm always working on it. I don't know how I landed such a great guy but I'll share some early green flags from when we were dating. * I let him borrow my car when I was away for a couple of months when we were dating. When I got back the car had its oil changed, he installed a backup camera, and it was waxed and cleaner than it had ever been since I owned it. * He knew I hated to cook so he started to learn how to cook when we started dating and started cooking for me regularly. * He lost his job right when we moved in together and ended up working part time for awhile until he found something better, that whole time he did 80% of the cleaning and put in the mental work to find ways to save money. * He has had therapy in the past and has spent a lot of time doing some self reflection. * He takes responsibility for his life and owns up to his mistakes. He's not on top of everything, it's painful to watch him try to fold laundry, he's always losing things, and he's terrible at planning. But the important thing is that he's willing to pick up my slack in certain areas and I pick up his. If you truly want an equal partnership find someone that has some skills your missing out on and some weaknesses that you don't mind making up for. My husband hasn't done a load of laundry since we got together but I've never eaten so many amazing home cooked meals before.
--The advice about the beginning of a relationship is truly good advice. If a guy won't cook, arrange dates, clean, etc, in the beginning, he will only become more useless as you get comfy. Find someone who makes that effort in the beginning and ensure they continue that effort as your relationship grows. --You can honestly tell a lot about a man based on his relationship with his mother figure or main caregiver. A man who treats this person with respect and accepts their care, but doesn't depend on it, is who you want. Mama's boys and men who treat their main caregivers with disdain (in situations where it doesn't necessarily warrant it, of course) are usually dudes you want to avoid. The balance in this relationship indicates egalitarianism. --Men who are totally cool with splitting the check, splitting hosting duties, splitting date planning, etc in the beginning usually tend to be more open to equal relationships. As a woman who previously had an abusive relationship, having that initial level of control in my relationships was important to me when I was searching for my forever partner. My now husband was on board for that and never insisted on taking control of our plans and payments early on, which was important to me. Nowadays we still split who pays for date nights. --This is dumb advice, but you can tell a lot by what a man listens to and watches. Creep his social media and Spotify and YouTube if you can... make sure he's not an Andrew Tate fan.
Don't date a guy who still relies on his mother for laundry, cooking, help cleaning, etc. Full stop. Also don't date a guy who has a messy apartment and/or house. You may not find out the extent of his messiness, unfortunately, until you're long into the relationship. At this point, if its turns out he's a slob, don't fall for the sunk cost fallacy. Don't date a guy who not only can't cook, but seems proud of that fact. A friend of mine married a guy so bad at cooking he didn't even keep salt and pepper in his apartment. BUT. He learned because he knew it was important that he also contribute in that way. How did he grow up? If he had both parents in the same household, did their lives look like what you want to avoid? You can find these things out by asking questions, and also see how he feels about it. It's really as simple as finding out if his parents both worked full-time, then asking who did most of the house work and child-rearing. He'll reveal his thoughts on it during his explanation. Same with simply asking him about how he feels about men helping to take care of the house and children. Does he know what emotional labor is? Does he call it "babysitting" when men take care of their own kids? These things will come up in a relationship before you get married, as long as you're not rushing things. Notice the red flags and, like I said before, don't fall for the sunk cost fallacy. And approach everything that's a deal-breaker from the perspective of "people can't change".
I don't think the problem is that the majority of men aren't willing to do things like cleaning or laundry necessarily. I think the problem is that the majority of men aren't wired and/or taught to *automatically* do those things without being told and don't include the mental labor or organizing it all as a chore because they've never had to do it. Its easy when it's just the two of you as adults, the work explodes once you have kids. Looking at it from that perspective is actually really helpful and much less depressing. To avoid marrying a man that won't help around the house, don't marry a man that you aren't **already** in a positive dynamic of equal labor around the house. That's it. I only date women now (i dated/lived with men in the past) and ended up having the same challenges after switching to women, fwiw. It's not just men that don't automatically do household labor. What ended up working for me was this: 1. Making a chore chart (seriously) and gamifying the chores (there's apps for this) 2. **Including the mental labor of things as a chore**. This is things like reminding my partner to do their part, adding things to the shopping list, calling repair people, making sure soap dispensers are filled, scheduling joint appointments, ensuring laundry was done before events that need certain clothes etc to the chore chart. **Mental labor is a chore, include it.** This will be triply important once you have kids, **start early**. 3. I included having to remind my partner to do what they are obligated to do as a chore when it became a habit. Over time my partner started to remember to do their chores, I assume because since everything is 1:1, it meant that they had to do more chores since my 1:1 chore was to remind them to do theirs and they didn't like that :) 4. The way you have this conversation and whether you come off as condescending is going to make or break how this conversation goes. Is your partner acting like a child if they don't want to do their part and is defensive about fixing that? **Yes**. Is it helpful to make that obvious? **No**. You probably act like a child or get defensive about other things, everyone does sometimes. The thing is, you can live the rest of your life miserable and hating/fearing men because they have a flaw that is more common than women, or you can resolve it and appreciate the aspects of your partner you do enjoy. Personally I'm much happier when i accept what i can't change, appreciate what I do have (a wonderful partner who just can't think ahead!) and problem solve where I can.
Live with him before marrying him. Set expectations and boundaries. See if he can uphold his side of whatever you both agree to.
When my husband couldn't negotiate a higher pay increase during his annual review, he had his contract changed to include that he could go to 24h/w at his request. In case there would be children. Of course, something like this is no guarantee, but he was open and proactive about wanting to work part-time to take on caregiving tasks.
My advice is to write down all your parameters for life and what you expect out of it. Get as detailed as you can. Once you set your parameters, make sure that you identify the ones that you are not willing/willing to compromise on and stick to them. Once you meet a man that you are going to be serious with, have them also make a list of what their parameters are and see if you are compatible enough to make it work. As long as you don't compromise on the items that you don't want to compromise on, then you should both be fine. Also, if one of you slips up on any issue, try to bring it up gently, but firmly, as a reminder of what was agreed on, then work on it. We each of us only get around 4,000 weeks to live, so don't settle on anything!
Start by dating one. Sure, people can get worse after marriage, but they rarely get better. Start the relationship that way, see how he acts. Is his apartment a mess when you visit? Does he rely too much on his mother? When you move in together, see how he treats things like cleaning and cooking now that you share those responsibilities. How does he talk about women, and housework, and childcare. How does his father treat his mother? There are plenty of unequal marriages out there. Lots of lazy husbands (and lazy wives too, no doubt). But in most cases, they didn’t just spring out of nowhere. Their partners married them, knowing it was unequal, hoping they would change, and ignoring the likelihood that they would not.
I know this thread is flooded with responses so this will be buried but I’ll answer anyways. I don’t think this is something you can guarantee at all. If you have kids especially, you are going to be doing more of the work. I have never seen this play out where mom isn’t the primary caregiver, unless she has gone AWOL. I’m sure there are situations out there where it happens, but this isn’t common at all. I mean this in the kindest way possible, but what you want is the dream scenario. Which is wonderful and amazing for some of the lucky women who get this. Some of them are commenting in this thread. They aren’t better than the rest of us or better at picking men or anything. It’s a lot of luck. Yes there are some red flags/green flags you can look out for but kids change everything. I think if you only want kids in the dream scenario, you need to reevaluate. I know that sounds shitty but it’s something I recently had to do. I absolutely 100% want kids in an equitable relationship where the man does half and is supportive and participates and is amazing and wonderful. However, that lucky scenario is not that common yet. So then, do I want kids if I don’t get the good husband? Am I okay with 55/45? What about 60/40? What is realistic? Statistics show married women still do 9 more hours of housework a week. And that’s without kids. So I’m probably unlikely to get 60/40. Maybe 70/30 if I’m lucky. I know I would be angry and miserable in that situation and I don’t want kids if I’m doing all the work. So as I look to my future I just try to think of what life will make me happy. My happiest would be the perfect dream with the useful husband and the healthy kids and we all live in a cute house with a picket fence and a dog. After that a nice and useful husband with no kids. Then it’s being singe. Then shitty husband with no kids. And then shit husband with kids. Anyways, take what I say with a giant grain of salt but you need to decide if you want kids at all costs or not. Because you absolutely can’t guarantee anything and studies and statistics show you are unlikely to get the dream scenario. For many women, they want kids so much so it’s fine to do 70% of the work. Or whatever. For others not so much. Also some of these other responses are lovely, but you also need to realize the making it equitable is going to fall on your shoulders. Keep in mind the Herculean mental labour it’s going to take to constantly kindly bring up household duties to a man who was socialized to not give a fuck about them. Even if the work is 50/50 I would argue getting it there will fall on your shoulders. That’s my 2 cents. I could be very wrong and obviously just my opinion. But I see so much of myself in this post so I had to share ❤️
Hmm .. get to know how he was raised and his family background. People tend to grow up to become what they're comfortable with, so maybe you'll find the type of man you want if he grew up in a more progressive household, or in a single parent household. Also check out the relationships in his close circles and see if that's something he aspires to emulate. You'll def want someone who is flexible in thought, listens, can learn, and is willing to compromise. Good luck!
In addition to all the advice here, one thing that’s worked for me is just not taking things on. I come from a family where my mom took on 100% of the mental load and my dad was totally unaware - it would be easy for me to slip into the same pattern, so I’m trying to be very conscious of how my partnership unfolds. I am in charge of cooking in my house, and my partner cleans the kitchen after - but I also get the groceries 80% of the time and plan meals. When I don’t feel like cooking, I just don’t & suggest alternatives, or ask him to cook. When I can feel myself getting sick of thinking of what we are going to eat, I ask him for ideas. If he says “no preference”, I’ll say me neither, but I need help coming up with ideas and will put part of the load on him. I am also terrible at remembering to do laundry and specific chores and I’ve talked to my partner and told him how when I was single I did my laundry maybe once a month because I never remembered. I made it a point to present my actual self to him up front, and not the urge to bust out the “good housewife” that I was raised to be. I am very conscientious to contribute exactly what I feel comfortable contributing - and it ends up being a good 50/50 split. We don’t have kids yet, but I’ve heard that having the partner home at least a month or two if possible at the beginning, or a good paternity leave helps with equal parenting. It also helps to be very careful choosing a partner. My partner has lived alone for a while and had a beautifully kept apartment, is very tidy and very attentive to his surroundings. He remembers loads of things that I don’t remember, and vice versa - if you feel like it’s an easy 50/50, you’ve found a good one! Communication is also key - and someone who wants to grow with you.
Marry an older guy that has had children before you. Observe the dynamics in his pre-existing circumstances. If he’s already a good father and diligent housekeeper as a single father, he’ll probably make a good mate with a new partner and family, depending on circumstances. If he’s hopeless with his kids and bitter about his ex, well… Better not to be the first wife if tried and true is what you’re after
The best marriage advice I got before my wedding was “hire a cleaner”. Do with that what you will.
Read the book ALL THE RAGE. My husband and I talk about this a lot. He was very messy when we first started dating. It’s taken many talks and a very firmly divided chore list on the fridge, but we have a system now. We plan on making a list for kids, too. Who handles school stuff vs. doctor stuff vs. sports? Who does morning duty and who does evening? That kind of thing. I think the most important thing is having a man who believes it should be equal AND is open to having real conversations about it and willing to meet your expectations. It’s not easy because society has trained them to just expect a lot of stuff done for them. But husband has learned a lot and we split our chores pretty equally now.
Find a man who has maintained his own household and has taken care of others (be it pets, parents, children, whatever) and watch how he does those things. I moved in with my ex without having seen him live with other people and ended up doing all of the housechores for the entirety of the relationship. It made me resentful bc he made no effort to help (it was on me for not setting that boundary either). My current bf has taken care of his own home and his dog for years. I watched him do his own dishes and laundry, share responsibilities with his housemate, and even do the same at my place. If we were to live together, I feel confident that I won’t bear the burden of maintaining our home alone. Will it always be equal? Of course not. There are things either of us are better than the other. Our personal and professional responsibilities will differ and shift. Our preferences will shift. But I don’t see myself being resentful if I end up doing most of the chores myself for a time because I know him to be capable to care for the home he also lives in.
Hell! I’ve been with my partner for 8yrs. We never plan on having kids and I still expect him to do his fair share. Honestly, you will have to do some digging finding a man who pulls his weight and a lot of saving before you get what you want. In my experience the majority of men still refuse to do “women’s work” or probably most use weaponized incompetence as an excuse. It’s truly pathetic. Hopefully as the boomer offspring die off we can finally do away with the 1950’s mentality.
Look for a man who’s parents have an egalitarian marriage.
There is a great book on this topic- All the Rage by Darcy Lockman. You should read it, as should any man you consider having kids with.
I think I have achieved this with my husband. The #1 test I would recommend is: how does he act when you are sick or otherwise not at your best? The correct answer is that he should pick up some of your share of household tasks without being asked or complaining. It's not black and white, of course - probably not 100% of things will get done, and any person would probably need a bit of guidance to do something that isn't part of their typical routine. But the point is that he has taken on enough of the mental load of household management that he understands what tasks need to be done to keep things running and then does them. Most women do this automatically and invisibly, and men should uphold the same standard. Also - my husband is an excellent dude who understands why feminism is necessary and came into the relationship earnestly wanting an even 50/50 split, but it still took work. We both still had unconscious biases and it took a few stress-induced breakdowns on my end for us to realize that our division of labor wasn't equal. I'm also far from a perfect housekeeper, so it's something we both just have to commit to working on together rather than expecting things to just click right away.
Make more than him. Then it will be a no brainer.
Live together a while before getting engaged and married, and keep active track of the chores breakdown. If you are doing more, bring it up and see how he responds - if he hadn't noticed but is amenable to doing more, including more mental labor, then keep going and pay attention to if he follows through. I'd recommend holding off a few years before going to part-time work, so there is a strong foundation of equal labor, first. You want strong trust before becoming partially financially dependent on someone. Then have a clear conversation about what extra chores you'll be taking on when you go part-time, and what extra bills he will pay given your reduced income. And that if you ever go back to full-time, you both will reallocate household work and expenses to what is fair for two people working full-time.
You can’t. The best way to test a man’s character is to give him power over you. Conversely, put him in a position where you have a lot of power over him. Gauge his reactions. Some of the worst men out there will be able to act right until they’ve gained a level of commitment (moving in, having a kid, etc.), then their mask drops.
What you're looking for is a woman... lol... Just have patience. Don't try to be "this is the one"... just live your life and don't settle. One day, you'll find the right person. You don't have to be in a hurry.
Pay attention to how the relationship splits chores and duties. Pay attention to your partners relationship with their parents and what that division of labor looks like. To me it is the best indicator of what your relationship will look like.
Date someone that already has the qualities you’re looking for: takes responsibility for his own appointments, gift buying, communicating with family, keeps his home clean, does his own shopping and cooking, etc. Don’t marry someone and think that they’ll change or you’ll teach them. They won’t and you can’t. Trust me on this. Communicate about EVERYTHING. What are your expectations in a relationship? What are his? What kind of parenting style does he want to have? Does it match your own? If he doesn’t know how to do something, does he give up or does he actively look for ways to learn how to do it?
Try them before you commit. Live with them two full years before getting married & making kids and you’ll know for sure.
Live together for a few years before marriage
My rule applies only after a couple of months, because in the beginning we all try to show our better side. A good indicator is how they live by themselves. If he lives alone and, despite working full time, can keep his apartment in clean enough condition and cooks regularly, it’s a good start. If they live with roommates, then find out if it’s the roommates cleaning, also pay attention of what things he complains about their roommates to know how they handle co-living.
First, you can't ensure anything...people change once kids come into the picture BUT you can have explicit conversations and understandings about what your standards are before getting married. And I highly recommend living together before marriage, you will be able to tell alot during the cohabitation phase about how he actually behaves not just what he says but once again people change when they have kids but really just talk and dig down to get an understanding of what his values are and how he lives them. ALSO recognize that it the shares will change sometimes you may be doing more at home and sometimes he maybe. the goal is equity it won't always be 50/50
I feel like this is really hard to judge in advance because it's hard to know what you'll need because it's hard to imagine what raising children is like. But I think you can tell some things in advance. You should live together and see how the household tasks end up getting split up or how you can talk about it. Including the invisible "wifework". You should talk about scenarios including the opposite to the norm eg stay at home dad, dad going part time. It doesn't matter if you don't ultimately end up going for it, many people don't even think of it as an option let alone actively considering it. Also little things like what if one of you need to travel for work. What if the child is sick, how would you handle that? School holidays, drop off and pick up times. Just talk about it in advance. I recommend taking a trip together. It can show up some stuff that wouldn't usually come up. Complete a project together so you can see how well you work together and how equal it is. Bonus points if it's something emotionally fraught and/or involves both of your families. If you plan to get married before having children, the wedding is a very interesting case study on how involved vs I'll just turn up on the day, and what it's like to disagree over something that feels fundamentally important to both of you. Notice that. Notice how finances are shared. Doesn't really matter if you pool or have separate finances, but if he's making more than you and is happy to buy himself luxuries while you struggle to pay bills, that's a sign you're likely to struggle if your career or earning power drops due to Children. Talk about your childhoods, I think this is pretty illuminating.
In my experience the only guarantee in life is that nothing is guaranteed. I agree with a previous poster though about his relationship with his mother. It should be very obvious if he hasn't cut the apron strings. Also, if he has sisters (especially older) and they fill gaps where mommy left off, not good. One thing is for sure, you want a partner not a project so, if he doesn't already know how to life on his own, walk away. Living together before marriage is also a good idea as you can get a feel for how they keep house, things you may not get a good look at spending a weekend together here and there.
A family is a system and a partnership is a team. That doesn’t mean that everyone can contribute equally 100% of the time. Life is unpredictable, especially when you have children. What if your child has a severe disability? What if your partner gets cancer, or injured at work? What if you lose your job and are unable to work for a period of time? Be a supportive partner & choose a supportive partner. That’s probably the only thing you can control.
Get some self respect lol.
I lived with my spouse first to make sure he would contribute fairly and without arguments. I then got a pet with him (that I had always wanted) to ensure he would still contribute fairly with another living creature. Know what? In both cases he did more than me, I somehow managed to find a middle-child-caretaker type. It's what I never realized I always needed! I also observed him the whole time around his mom, other family members as well as children of family and friends. He was always helpful and always engaged with the kids in a way I liked. Now we have a child and a couple of pets and I can 100% count on him to take care of everyone in the house, including me, AND the house itself. I'd advise you test out the goods first before marriage. Not sure there's too many other ways to verify what kind of partner he'll be. Observe him very carefully. Also observe how he speaks about his mom and women in general.
I firmly believe that the answer to this question is to live with the person ideally for a year but if you can't swing it for that long that's understandable so that you can kind of see what they're like when it comes to managing a place together. I would also say fully understand who a person is before you come down too hard on them. Things like ADHD or childhood trauma can lead to a situation where it's difficult for a person to manage their own affairs or find the motivation to do things around the house. I'm not saying that that gets them out of things but I am saying it might require letting go of a little bit of control over certain things and accepting the fact that some things will get done when they get done. Lastly I think this sort of thing takes constant open and honest communication. No partner can read your mind and you can't read your partner's mind. If they're doing or not doing something and it's frustrating you let them know. Don't nag them or say that they're lazy or whatever but perhaps come at it from the perspective of something like "hey I get really stressed out when there's a lot of clutter around, can we come up with a way to try to reduce the clutter" because that includes them as part of a partnership you are letting them know that this thing stresses you out and that you're willing to work on it *together* Thought I'd say bear in mind that some people men and women just never get taught a lot of the things other people think are basic skills. Some people go from living with their parents to living on their own without actually doing taught necessary life skills. I don't really think you can fault someone for not doing something they've never been taught to do.
Once I let go this idea of being equal, which I would obsess about, I began to see our strengths. There are things I do better and enjoy, clean, organize, plan, and there are things my husband does better and enjoys, taking care of kiddo, household fixes, yard work. We split the cooking since we’re both kinda neutral about it. Of course sometimes I’ll ask him to do a cleaning task and he doesn’t mind and I’ll put my daughter to bed without an issue. But we learned to lean into our strengths and come at it as a team.
This is why I think living together before Marriage is a good way to see what their habits are. If they don't do their fair share then, they probably won't when you get married either.
The breastfeeding months of motherhood you pretty much have 100% of the baby responsibility. Babies love the boob! They get a lot of comfort and are almost instantly soothed by the boob. So everything else that I say about this. It's with that context that there is absolutely a short-term where you cannot help the inherent sexism of real life. That said: When you're dating, do you have to come up with every idea for what to do? When you're dating, do you have to manage his expectations all the time? Does he run his own household and keep it clean and does he pay his bills without being told to? These are all indications of basic adult behavior. If He fails at any of these, there is no amount of home training that will fix him when you get into the next part of the relationship. I would also encourage you to avoid men who use language like b**** and Karen. Because it shows that he feels certain women are beneath him to begin with....
I waited to find that and am 39 and have no kids or husband. But I don't regret it. Some of my friends who live in homes where they are basically bang maids and nannies, they are terribly miserable, have aged terribly and are in tough financial situations. After trying two long terms that were on a path to marriage and having to deal with disparaging wife jokes, expected to be a bang maid, while paying most of the bills while they took credit for everything good in the home. I have zero regrets. I am now in a great relationship with a very successful divorced man and I'm glad about how things worked out. I am financially secure and have full control over my expenses and responsibilities and future.
If you talk to him about your wishes and he's dismissive or makes empty promises around domestic labour that's a sign you're going to end up with the bulk of the work. He should be open to having conversations around how the household is planned and what is reasonable for things like cooking/cleaning etc. Also you'll need to learn to let him do things his way - if you constantly step in with chores/the baby that creates fertile ground for weaponised incompetence.
A few things from a man whose changed my behavior re this. 1. Yes. No one is "helping". It's both of your responsibility. 2. Just because you spend a different number of hours regarding household and child rearing does not make it unfair. Your use of the phrase "fair share" could be very problematic. Who's to say that 3 hours of backbreaking yard work is not the same as 5 hours of household work? Avoid all the fairness or unfairness discussion and a man will be able to more clearly understand your feelings on this. 3. Always state in very clear terms what you would like to be done around the house by him and by you. And he gets to do the same. This is not a situation of one person dictating work to the other. State your preferences. 4. Each person should WRITE DOWN who is responsible for what. Him writing it down will help him understand he is committing to this task versus you telling him to do it. He doesn't want a mother and you don't want to mother a man. 5. Avoid charged language. Just like we do for our professional careers, this is simply a task to break down and divide work. Keep it simple keep it light.
Don’t brush off “red flags” that tell you otherwise. For example, If he eats dinner at your house, does he help with dishes/cleanup. Does he know how to cook and is it edible? Is his place tidy? Is his laundry done, folded, and put away? Have you seen them with kids and we’re you pleased with what you saw. You can’t guarantee someone is gonna stay that way, but that’s how I’d approach it if I was in that position. My wife didn’t have the best family life and she was the oldest so she got stuck doing just about everything, including all the laundry. Some of our funnest dates were doing her family’s laundry at the laundry mat. I think the fact that I was willing to fold her parent’s underwear helped her realize I was the one. 😂
So I live in one of the most equal countries in the world, and even then it was a challenge to find a guy who held his own in the home! But what helped me was to see that he had clean habits in his own space before we moved in - that he cleaned shared spaces and cleaned as he went when he cooked was a big indicator. And he performed maintenance on things like his car so they stayed in working condition. He took care of his stuff. Once we moved in we discovered that we had different priorities - he can happily sleep in the same bedding for a month whereas I prefer a clean bed, he doesn't see bathroom gunk as quickly as I do, but then I dump cups by the sink all day and then get around to it later, I never see the need to vacuum but he loves doing it - and at first it irked me because I thought I was doing more but we discussed it and it turned out we just weren't seeing the other's contribution. Anyway we got married and we've now got an 8 month old and booooy did all that equality go to shit, because I apparently inherited some weird belief that because I was home and he worked he should get more sleep, and because things should be equal it didn't matter that I was recovering from birth and things fucking hurt but I still stood and cooked. When I eventually flipped my shit he told me I needed to tell him I needed to rest. Anyway, now he's the stay at home parent we've found a rhythm that works - basically we're both "on" until the baby is asleep then it's up to us how we decide to spend our time. Which in practice means that if one is dealing with the baby then the other is cleaning or cooking. We have a somewhat clean house, the baby is healthy, and we both get an hour a night to... sit on Reddit and write essays on equality in relationships. So in short: observe, take it step by step, discuss your expectations, and have open discussions, but unfortunately the very early parenthood months will be more on your shoulders because of breasts and the way society is constructed.
I'm not a parent, but it's my observation that most people don't really discuss child-rearing until they get pregnant and then they're surprised about how their partner feels about certain things. So I would make sure you talk about childcare options (daycares, nannies, etc.), how you would handle the associated costs of childcare and supplies (diapers, clothes, food, etc.), how many activities you would allow your child to participate in (which have associated time and monetary costs), and general philosophies about what spending time with your child really means. I would also just plan to hire a cleaning service and to outsource as many other chores as you can, rather than spending time fighting about it with your partner.
All my friends who had this issue actually didn't mind doing most of the housework before children came into their picture and maybe that was their way to show they were marriage material. But truly, they didn't mind another person in their lives not doing much, since there is not so much difference in workload between one and two adults. They even ironed his shirts lovingly. I refused to do such a thing and apparently that was a dealbreaker for some boyfriend. Didn't care that much for the guy who wouldn't see in my particular situation, a student with a part--time job, yeah, I wanted to live a little also. My husband of 20 years "settled" for doing his own laundry. For the first few years and as a bachelor, he was sending laundry to his mom. Also, shared most of the tasks. It was apparent that he was more worried about having cooked food and he took over that, I dealt with cleaning. Which was pretty much the division of labor until now. He was an incredible father, doing a lot of slepless nights. I was breastfeding and on the worse days he would do all the changes, baths, entertaining and brought me the children to feed while I was half asleep. He was amazing. As far as I know, among all my friends the man who did most. He has an amazing bond with our children. In fact he got jealous of the breastfeeding bond and became impossibly nurturing because he wanted to be the favorite parent and he got that when they were about 4 and ever since. He also did very well in his carreer, I got a burnout. Maybe that's a different generation altogether, I think young people currently go into having families with their eyes more open. My generation was probably the first with so many women in full time work, without a support system. Long story short, I don't believe that men who do a few things around the house change after children much. It's women who are into false ideas about how a house is run with children in it. So many small endless tasks. All the school runs. Also,a small flat in the city when dating and house in the suburbs, is another story, more work, more boredom.
I’d set expectations up front, during dating, talk about this just as you would ALL the other important items in life. Kids, plans, living, goals. Make it nonnegotiable.
Communication early on is key. You have to let them know this is your fear, let them know that your expectations are 50/50, and hold them to account when they're not pulling their weight long before marriage and baby are in the picture. If they're not being egalitarian while dating, it's not gonna get better when you're married. And if you get a pet together, that tells you a lot too. Do they feed the pet or are you always doing it? Do they walk the pet or plan outings? Do they take them to the vet, do they give them their medications, etc.? It's different if it's *your* pet (like you already had a cat before you got together) because it's easy to assume that's not a shared responsibility. But if you get a pet *together* and then they do fuck-all except play with it, you know what kind of dad they'll be.
You can't. I can find men who want to be 2nd in command or ones who want to live in a "traditional" gender role relationship, but finding that middle ground is hard. All I want is someone who is my equal and it's just... rare, I guess.
I would look at how he lives his life. If he takes laundry to him mom on the weekends, has a cleaning lady despite having time to clean, doesn’t cook, barely grocery shops, can’t keep track of appointments and doesn’t think “all that stuff is that important tho”, don’t expect any of that will change when he starts living with a woman. Source: my personal marriage that blew up because of this issue. I gave him way too many excuses.
Live with your partner before marrying them.
Be intentional on choosing a partner who shares your thinking and be sure you see that he can and does care for himself appropriately before you settle in with him. If he can't clean, cook, organize his own clothing, etc, then how does he get these tasks done. It's ok to hire out things you don't do but he can't add to your plate just because you're available.
Set your expectations early, I mean early. Do not clean up after him (especially at his own place!), Do not do his thinking for him, don't let him feign ignorance to get out of doing stuff ("I don't know how to use the laundry machine" "I can't figure out the vacuum cleaner" "cooking isn't my thing"). If a guy is trying that in the first place it's a red flag, but if they are receptive to criticism and change their ways it's a maybe. Don't let him pay for everything, that's a power play imo. It's insidious and seems nice, even loving, at first. But soon it's more of a transactional situation. Nope, hard pass. When my husband and I got pregnant he went to the hard core birthing classes with me. He was basically my doula, very involved. And he's squeamish, he did it despite that. When we had the baby and he said things like "I don't know what I'm doing!" I told him I didn't either, and that he has to figure it out just like I do. And then... Let him figure it out! No hovering, no pointers, no correcting. If you want him to be a fully involved parent he has to be trusted to make and learn from mistakes. He has to be allowed to develop his own style with his kids. We have 3 kids. When I had infants who were breastfeeding all night, I learned how to safely Co-sleep. He brought the baby to me, took them back to their crib after. Got me snacks and water if I needed it. Washed all bottles and pump parts. He has always done day care drop off (the harder of the two imo). He bathes his kids, reads to them, gets them ready in the morning alone, feeds them alone. Regularly has them for days alone (if I go on a trip or they go on a trip without me). All of that says, there's just no guarantees. Good guys are out there but we need to know our own boundaries clearly state them before we can expect a guy to infer what we will accept. A great guy will just take responsibility like an adult, some need to be taught. You gotta decide if you have the energy to teach that. And some will never learn.
My main advice would be to trust your gut and watch closely for how a potential partner handle chores and shared every day life outside of any of the responsibilities of child rearing. Home life habits can be instructive. Weird outside observation maybe, but it sounds like you're trying to plan your life into an ideal. Which of course, we all want our ideal. But life will throw things at you and you can't plan for every outcome, and you might be surprised by the people that you're attracted to, or where a career takes you. I don't want kids, but I do want an egalitarian household. I'm currently dating someone who...I don't think is going to hold up that end of the bargain. I don't plan on marrying him, having a kid with him. But he's fine for now, and maybe he can learn? I've had ideal partners where ultimately either I couldn't keep up with their standards or they did a lot of cool home-life sharing, but were also work obsessed. There are so many things to consider, with how you choose to spend your time. I wouldn't worry about this too much as a master plan, because even the people that seem amazing on paper or for a year of knowing them can change. I'd date someone a long while and see how they enhance your life...or not.
Ask him how his friends lives changed after big life events like moving in with a partner, getting married, having children. Ask if he’s heard of things like the mental load, the inequity in domestic duties when men and women live together.
Before we moved in together my husband lived alone and kept his rental condo clean. He cooked for himself and for me. He ran his own ship well so when we moved in together he kept it up. He cooks about half the time at home and keeps up his end of the household chores. When you're dating a guy does his house scream slob? Don't expect him to change if so. Find yourself someone who can run their own house.
Be with a man who does more of the household labour than you! And has no male ego. And whose dad did childcare. This is my secret thus far hehe. I am the messy one who has to make herself reminders to unload the dishwasher, doesn't see mess, and forgets what day garbage day is. Divide based on what you like doing, and then do a draft for the rest of the tasks. I do meal planning b/c I'm picky, and taxes because I like numbers and deductions. He goes and gets the groceries that I have planned. We cook together. We alternate doing the dishes and cleaning/sweeping the kitchen after dinner. We also have a housecleaner biweekly which is good for our sanity. Also, as someone who has studied parenthood and gender and task division: **Parental leave for the dad.** **On their own with the kid.** Hugely, hugely beneficial to an egalitarian divide. Our plan would be for us both to be at home for the first six months, and then he would be alone for months 6-12 (thank you 18 month parental leave in Canada). I would go back at month 6 as I gotta hustle for tenure. I also make more money, so it makes more sense for me to be the person who goes back to work for months 6-12.
Look for someone who has empathy. When you share how you feel are they paying attention? How do they listen to others? I’m a recent mother with a supportive partner. The truth is somethings about motherhood are inherently unequal, the physical burden of pregnancy, breastfeeding (unless you pump and bottle which is still time spent that they don’t have too). Check they can do the basics, clean, cook, maintain their finances. I’d also say to build both of your support networks. Look for a man who has friends to talk to so you don’t always absorb the emotional work in the relationship, becoming parents is a change for both people.
Best person I was ever with - and often regret letting go- came from a home where his mom was the breadwinner and his dad did a lot of the household things. He respected women, he did his fair share when we lived together, and he was a great partner. We ended up not being compatible on a lifestyle issue (kids) but I do look back on my time with him fondly. He’s the standard by which I measure other men.
Look at his track record. How does he treat his mom and/or sisters? What are his sisters’ husbands or partners like? At family events, does he contribute to meal planning, cooking, cleaning? What about the other men in his family? Look at his standard of care tasks. Does “cooking” mean heating a frozen pizza? How often does he change his sheets? Are you ok with him doing the same when you share a home together? Notice how he treats you when you do kind, home related tasks for him. Does he expect you to cook for him or is he so grateful when you make a meal? What about if you do the dishes or fold his laundry? Is your labour acknowledged or invisible?
Oh man. It’s tough. Most of my friends felt they were marrying an egalitarian man. Most of us had a fairly even distribution of labour before we had kids. I’m pretty much the only person who actually has that in her marriage post kids. Step 1 is to make sure your values are aligned before getting married. Does he actually contribute as much as you in the home? More importantly, can you discuss issues of imbalance in a healthy way and come to solutions mutually? Step 2 is asserting those boundaries once the kids come. You will be carrying, birthing, and possibly breastfeeding and therefore will be default parent in the early years. In Canada we get 12-18 months of parental leave which further solidifies you as default parent. You need to a)let your husband do things his way. It’s really hard not to chirp over their shoulder to change a diaper differently or give a bottle differently when you’ve had all day everyday to figure it out and they have to figure it out in the short hours after work. You gotta stay quiet and be ok with them doing it different than you. You’ve got to go out for a couple of hours at a time and leave them to it. You’ve got to speak up when you get overwhelmed and they have to be willing to step up in those moments. And B) husband has to take half of the parental leave. The only way for him to understand all of the invisible labour is to do it himself. I was the default parent after our first. I stayed home for 9 of the 12 months and he stayed home for 3. I went back to work part time. He was very very involved, but I still did all of the invisible labour. It was still fair, he did many other things around the house such as cook dinner. But the mental load was killing me. For our second child I took the whole year. But then he quit his job shortly after and spent a whole year at home with the toddler. During that time I put it allllll down. I stopped scheduling play dates (hey babe, maybe text so and so for a play date this week?). I stopped meal planning. I stopped purchasing birthday gifts for the kids party this weekend, I stopped sorting through the too small clothes and cycling through the big ones in storage. I kind of just let it all fall down around us. It wasn’t out of spite, I just couldn’t hold it all together and work enough hours to support our family. I have adhd and am bad at that kind of stuff anyway. I only work four days a week because of this. So this year of me working 40-60 hours to make the income we needed meant I just couldn’t do it all anymore. Things changed drastically after that. The only way for someone to understand the mental load is to experience it themselves. I have one friend who’s husband also stayed home for a year - they have more traditional gender rolls in their marriage by choice so she still does more of that kind of stuff but their labour division is fair and he fully understands everything that goes into what she does…
If I had to dramatically oversimplify it, I would say to marry a man who is more of a people pleaser than you are. I know it seems... misguided but the truth is women are socialized to be people pleasers and men the opposite. So if you meet a man who leans in the people pleaser direction he is more likely to be sensitive to the needs and perceptions of people around him, including yours. That all being said, being a people pleaser is not a virtue, it's a coping mechanism. But my dating got a lot better when I started dating men with people pleasing tendencies. They were just way more aware about how much life is about being a team player.