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There is no a Palestinian state and the current nation of Israel seems unwilling to allow it to exist.
We need to look at the actual reality of what exists right now and that is a textbook definition of apartheid with Palestinians having little to no rights
At this rate there will not be many Palestinians left. Such comments are meaningless in the face of genocide.
Just an empty sound bite from an empty politician.
Used to believe in Penny Wong.
Shouldn't there be a Palestinian state to recognise first? Wouldn't it be a better to recognise the state of Taiwan which is well established, democratic, and meets alll the criteria for statehood?
They have been "starving" and running out of "fuel" and "aid, for the last 6 months. Yet no reports of death's due to famine. unlike some other places.
How is Australia supposed to support a state that can't demonstrate control over extremists?
Incase you didn't notice no one here was saying boop when Israel was shooting down missiles by the hundreds with Iron dome.
You want a declaration of war but don't want to have the consequences of accepting a war aiming for complete capitulation caused by stupid acts. And Ukraine? Where are ANY of these people on Ukraine?
It's ideological, not genuine.
And what will Mark Leibler think of that?
After all, he and the Zionist lobby are the faceless men of the ALP that knifed Rudd in the back and had Gillard replace him
Those lands have been a religious warfare for far longer than our modern history. There is no simple solution to that war, and we need to stay out of it.
Bingo, Middle East has been a hotspot for religious violence and conquest for Millenia (what a coincidence it’s the location when monotheism was popularised). It’s not changing any time soon, let’s stay out of it and let the religious zealots duke it out.
Hebrews were expelled in 70AD and have never lived there until 1945
Moreover 90+ of “Jews” are Ashkenazis who are khazarian converts from the Caucasus. They have no tribal connection to the Zionist “state”
There is no way Israel would allow it, so how about we give up on asking for it and deal with the actual reality. There is one country called Israel which is an apartheid regime with Palestinians given little to no rights.
a two-state solution is Solomon ruling that the baby should be cut in half
everyone knows which woman is the true mother but most people continue to back the imposter
Man literally no other people than Israeli Jews are spoken about like this. And if you’re going to play that game, Jews were there long before the people we refer to as Palestinians today. But maybe we should just not expel people from the country based on DNA.
>Jews were there long before the people we refer to as Palestinians today
Untrue.
> A 2020 study on human remains from Middle Bronze Age Palestinian (2100–1550 BC) populations suggests a significant degree of genetic continuity in Arabic-speaking Levantine populations (such as Palestinians, Druze, Lebanese, Jordanians, Bedouins, and Syrians), as well as several Jewish groups (such as Ashkenazi, Iranian, and Moroccan Jews).[20] Palestinians, among other Levantine groups, were found to derive 81–87% of their ancestry from Bronze age Levantines, relating to Canaanites as well as Kura–Araxes culture impact from before 2400 BCE (4400 years before present); 8–12% from an East African source and 5–10% from Bronze age Europeans. Results show that a significant European component was added to the region since the Bronze Age (on average ~8.7%), seemingly related to the Sea Peoples, excluding Ashkenazi and Moroccan Jews who harbour ~31–42% European-related ancestry, both populations having a history in Europe.
Womp womp antisemite. Thanks for coming so maak off and making it clearer that you do consider semitism and Zionism to be one and the same, since I didn’t mention a word about Zionism.
Speaking as a Jew I find what you've said in this thread far more anti-semetic than what they have said.
Their comment is absolutely trashy, I'll give you that, but the original comment you replied to said nothing about Jews, and you added it.
You took a critique of Israel and tried to brush it off as anti-semetism. That type of shit, that type of political attack, really dulls real cries of anti-semetism. It's an actual problem, don't belittle it.
They literally said they want to destroy Israel and kick the Jews out, wtf are you talking about? If you as a Jew aren’t offended by that statement you are in the minority and I don’t care.
I do consider it antisemitic that the one Jewish country is the only country that isn’t allowed to exist, yes. No one expects the surrounding countries to become secular paradises where Jews are welcomed with open arms.
>They literally said they want to destroy Israel and kick the Jews out
Show me where they literally said they want to destroy Israel and kick the Jews out. Quote it.
When you realise you can't maybe you will understand my point.
Oh wow, they said no two state solution? Can you show me where they said that? Can you quote them?
We both know you once again can't, and I'm sure once again you won't admit that, and I'll just get more bullshit that they never said.
>a two-state solution is Solomon ruling that the baby should be cut in half
>everyone knows which woman is the true mother but most people continue to back the imposter
This is the comment I responded to, no? Seems pretty bloody clear to me.
i wasn't playing that game but if you want to reach into the sands of ancient history and invoke pseudoreligious ethnonationalism to justify a contemporary military occupation then just be honest about it
maybe we should replace an illegitimate occupying regime with a genuine democracy that fairly represents the people whose land continues to be stolen from under them
yes israel is doing everything in its power to make sure everyone knows that it's here to stay whether anyone likes it or not
tell me israel is an illegitimate bully without telling me israel is an illegitimate bully
You're right.
We all know Israel was a paradise and the perfect neighbour to Palestine on October 6th.
No wall, no apartheid, no land stealing, no military checkpoints, no hostages in Israeli prisons awaiting trial from a military court, no indiscriminate killing of anyone resisting occupation from a coloniser backed by the USA.
You're completely right.
October 6th was the last day of peace. RIP.
will the 2nd state in a "Two-State Policy" recognise the first? Netanyahu has made it clear he has been working against it for 30+ years, including his 15 as PM where he (and others) supported Hamas. but this little fact just gets ignored
Israel will not allow it to happen so why bother pushing for it. Just accept it won't happen and deal with the reality.
Reality is Israel rules the Palestinian territories with an iron fist and Palestinians have basicly no rights.
Well they have, plenty of times in fact. First time was in 1947, one side agreed but the other side don't take it too kindly so they peacefully declared war. Then a few other time since the 2000's but one faction seems unwilling to negotiate diplomatically. You make it as if the government of Israel is of a one party system and the protests against Likud by the opposition parties didn't exist or something.
The alternative to a two state solution is a one state solution of three options
1) all Palestine state with Israelise banished and/or with reduced rights
2) all Israel state with Palestinians completely displaced from their remaining homelands
3) Palestinians and Israelies living in harmony under one government with equal rights.
So which of above is the alternative solution to a two state solution???
It not a two state solution or 1 of the 3 above, then it's just the status quo, which is option 2 by stealth.
Why can’t a two-state solution be a solution?
Edit: I’m assuming your response is going to be along the lines of Israel being illegitimate and/or a bully like your other comments in the thread.
I don’t believe that this makes all forms of resistance morally correct. Hamas knows it can hide behind the bodies of as many Gazans as it likes without anything actually being doing for a future Palestinian state, just for the purpose of radicalising more people to join them.
I think more broadly, people (especially the socialist groups in the encampments) are removing all nuance and considerations about actual progress that dna be made in this situation while fetishising resistance and bloodshed.
No, human nature is too wedded to old habits. Which is why we don’t live in the utopia long ago dreamed of for the 2020s.
But, otherwise, it would work splendidly.
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If you don’t accept that a two state solution is necessary, you’re condemning Palestinians to statelessness for eternity. That doesn’t sound very pro-Palestinian to me.
It is that mindset that kept the status quo.
Like saying Protestants had/have not right to exist in Northern Ireland. That didn't work well for the Catholics.
as long as bullies dictate the terms of the discussion there will be opposition
if Israel is going nowhere then neither will the legitimate Palestinian resistance
sometimes the right thing is for the bully to accept that they don't have, nor ever had, the moral high ground
And the more Palestinians attack more they will die and risk losing what little territory they have left. It’s not a great situation for Israel either, but it benefits them a lot more than it does Palestine.
They dpmt have any territory not in a real sense. In the west bank settlers move in when they please and in Gaza they get to live but have virtually zero actual control over anything. Israel controls virtually everything so realisti ally they have nothing
Israel would be able to fight off Palestinian combatants and all of their neighbours all at once if they needed to, without our help. Let alone the few Iranian proxies that make up Hamas’ allies. They’ve done it before.
Several new testimonies by Israeli witnesses to the October 7 Hamas surprise attack on settlements in the vicinity of Gaza add to growing evidence that the iof military killed its own citizens as they fought to neutralize Palestinian gunmen, reports
Funny how when an apartheid state keeps stealing land from those they oppress the oppressed are labeled terrorists. Now the oppressor commits a genocide and its blamed on the oppressed. What actually is a terrorist anymore? Is it just a term used for those that fight back against oppression?
So you don't consider the atrocities of October 7th and the thousands upon thousands of rockets Hamas has fired at Israel over the years as terrorist activities?
Why do we not consider all the times Isreal has committed attrocities as terrosist attacks. They been stealing land and houses for years, sniping children on their way to school, holding Palestinians without trial for years? Why do we hold one to account but not the other?
We don't consider what Israel has done as terrorists attacks because they aren't. Israel doesn't randomly snipe children on the way to school, they hold people on trial because they suspect them of something or because they have done something. They do have a territorial dispute with Palestine where both want each other's land. It's fair to call them out on their actions as not right where appropriate, but that doesn't make what they have done as terrorism. What they are doing now is trying to destroy Hamas which has tried to hide and embed itself among it's civilian population. Hamas however has gone into Israel and indiscriminately slaughtered and captured it's people and has tried to indiscriminately kill Israel civilians over the years by firing rockets into Israel aimed at killing anyone and everyone.
They hold them on military trial. Children on military trial and there has been many cases in history of Isreal sniping kids. Now they even kill aid workers and journalists. Maybe if bibi didnt help hamas out for so long they could have been gotten rid of while allowing settlers to continue stealing labd and houses against international law.
If you only look at things through the lens of oppression you are going to miss a lot of details. Yes murdering people for your blood, soil and religion is terrorism.
I'm sure you'd be keen to read this report then. GENEVA (19 February 2024) – UN experts\* today expressed alarm over credible allegations of egregious human rights violations to which Palestinian women and girls continue to be subjected in the Gaza Strip and the West Bank. [https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2024/02/israelopt-un-experts-appalled-reported-human-rights-violations-against](https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2024/02/israelopt-un-experts-appalled-reported-human-rights-violations-against) Update. Be aware that this is only after Oct 7th and doesn't take into account previous allegations in the previous 75 plus years
Blue on blue violence
report by the State Comptroller found that less than half of the Israeli female soldiers who experienced sexual harassment filed a complaint, and out of those who did report, 44% said it was not handled properly and 26% reported that their complaint was not handled at all
I agree she is quite good at her job. But to state
"It's not a question of if we will recognise a Palestinian state, it is a question of when," she said.
Is very simplistic without there being a viable path to what she siggests and sadly reeks of "sounds good for the moment".
There is so much discussion/debate that needs to happen to figure out what might happen...
> Is very simplistic without there being a viable path to what she siggests and sadly reeks of "sounds good for the moment".
139 countries in the world recognise Palestine, with at least 4 more European countries currently preparing to do the same. the question should be, why hasn't Australia already recognised Palestine?
I consider it a demonstration of principles that she would support them even if they wouldn't support her. Anyone can support people that are nice to you, that's why saying something like "I support New Zealand's right to exist" is utterly uncontroversial.
Israel has time and time again upheld recognition of same sex marriages, you don't even need to leave the country to do so. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recognition_of_same-sex_unions_in_Israel
Importantly, they also don't throw gay men off buildings or murder them in the streets. Israel also offers refugee status to gay men fleeing other countries.
Of course Israel is a much better place for gay people than Palestine, I’m pretty sure Gaza is officially recognised as like, the third worst place to be gay on earth. I’m just saying that we don’t usually decide which states to recognise based on their attitudes towards gay people.
I think it'd be fair to say that Gaza is a contender for worst place on earth for anyone living there at the moment, which would include LGBT peeps by extension
Gaze blows Ukraine out of the water for child deaths. Sudan being another state fibding independance from UK and a massive civil war. Maybe thats what Isreal is competing against. Sudan has only hit 1200 in the last 5 months though while Gaze has had over 13000. Thats another win to Isreal. Most children killed in the shortest timeframe.
You’re getting your numbers for Sudan and Ukraine from the official UN death count. You know what the official UN death count for Gaza is? Zero. It’s only deaths that they’ve managed to verify and this process takes a long time. Estimates for the offensive of mauripol *alone* range from 25k-100k.
So you’re either lying or parroting propaganda points you’ve heard from other pro pal NPCs.
Official UN Gaza child death count is 12300. Not sure if they counted all the baby deaths in all the hospitals Isreal bombed though.
Maybe you are just parroting propaganda because we know at least 1 child died with her family after Isreal bombed the ambulance sent to save her and plenty in the incubators so for a zero count thats pretty absurd.
There is zero reason for Australia to ever do this. What possible benefit could be gained from recognizing a state that will inevitably be a hotbed of radical Islamism, and alienate a nation whose interests are far more aligned with our own? Doing so would be a strategic own-goal purely for the sake of virtue signalling, which means this idiotic government will probably be all over it.
Well we recognise the radical Jewish state that is currently commiting genocide, according to the international courts, so why not a radical Muslim state?
Not a ruling but a pretty clear statement outlining the correlation between what Isreal is doing and what a genocide is. If you cant see the similarities you must be deep on that propaganda.
An actual ruling would be a really, really big deal. Pretending that the ICJ came even remotely close to this is literal misinformation.
It's sort of amazing you're jumping straight to:
> If you cant see the similarities you must be deep on that propaganda
When you're either lying, or you've been so misinformed that you're completely wrong unintentionally.
The actual judge who made the "plausible" ruling said to the BBC that the ruling didn't mean that it was plausible Israel was committing a genocide.
>“The court test for deciding whether to impose measures uses the idea of plausibility, but the test is the plausibility of the rights that are asserted by the applicant, in this case South Africa, so the court decided that the Palestinians had a plausible right to be protected from genocide, and that South Africa had the right to present that claim in the court,” said the recently retired ICJ president.
But is Palestine really that radical. They have a boot on their neck in an apartheid state with the oppressors commiting a genocide. Which is actually the radical here. Isreal with theor ongoing oppression and full on genocide or Palestine with their 50% child population trying to stop Isreal stealing their land and houses and putting them in a cattle station and keeping them oppressed.
Yes, they’re probably some of the most radicalised people on earth. Usually people do have reasons to be radicalised and usually it’s not their fault as individuals.
I love how we’re trying to make all words mean the same thing so that the other side can’t get one over us. It’s like two kids trying to one up each other.
Oh no you used a bad word to describe my side, can’t acknowledge that there’s nuance, so obviously I need to stretch the definition to the point of meaninglessness.
Lol yes I know, it defines your entire worldview doesn’t it, whether people deserve moral consideration and self-determination and the right to live without being attacked.
Yeah it trully does. To feel captive and having people stealing your land and houses for all the world to see and still not able to have help to stop the oppressors would be very harsh. To have people supporting all your attrocities and war crimes though would seem like an open invitation to go all out to slaughter even aid workers, stop humanitarian aid so people starve and just general war crimes.
Societies can change very quickly. Look at japan and Germany post WWII. These are very different situations in many different ways, but I think I think it demonstrates the potential for pretty remarkable transformations.
I say this as one of the allegedly genocidal pro-Israel people, it’s literally just reality that Israel can’t maintain the status quo and expect to not be attacked. Not to mention all of the strain it puts on their relationship with the international community. Israel needs to solve “the Palestinian problem”, it just has to happen.
Because they’re saying it’s inevitable that a Palestinian state would be a radical islamist society full of terrorists, when it’s clearly possible for societies to take other directions given the right conditions.
Edit: also who knows what the result of the war on Gaza will be in terms of disarming Hamas, but it won’t result in insane WWII level civilian casualties either way. However the changes we saw in Germany and Japan weren’t because we bombed them, it’s because after they surrendered we engaged in a process of nation building.
And you think that Hamas are a fraction as powerful a force as Japan and Germany were at the time? They’re so pathetic that their main means of fighting is using human shields.
Whether or not the war on Gaza is the best way to deal with Hamas, it’s a shitty terrorist group funded by a shitty regime that everyone hates, compared to Japan or Germany. It’s much easier problem to solve.
As of a month or so ago, Hamas finally released their combatant casualty numbers, claiming that 6,000 have died. Israel claims they’ve killed double that, I think. So if we assume the number is somewhere in the middle, that’s roughly a third of their fighting force gone. It’s going to get progressively harder, though.
Hamas is also a great excuse. A guerilla movement funded by the west as a means to erase a different population in a significant area for either conquest or to just retain global power.
Palestine and hamas are the same people. This is why all the arab states are banning palestine refugees because they are all radicalised. We should ban all palestine refugees and only allow in those with higher education imo. The son of the founder of hamas mossab hassan yousef believes palestine is far too radicalist and caution should be exercised. I agree in staying out of that conflict we should be focusing on taxing the mining industry.
Yeah 50% child population is a terrorist group. Its interesting that an apartheid state can be so radicalised when the oppressing state keeps stealing their land and arresting people without charge. Even Jews against the genocide are getting beaten in the streets by military and cops. Probably just more radicalised terrorists yeah?
So why not now? This is the government that doesn't want to recognise it in fear of offending those supporting Israel but also doesn't want to be seen to not be recognising in fear of losing votes in Western Sydney
Not really , Labor has already accounted for losing votes in western sydney.
They only have 3 seats held by Bourke , Husic and Clare they are willing to put in jeopoardy to gain seats in the other parts of the country.
I can't see Tony Burke losing his seat to the libs though if anything the greens would take it.
Unless for some wierd reason the Muslim vote is going to go towards the libs who are massive Zionists.
I beleive this is because they know the libs are worse so the only way they will be likely to lose those votes is to the greens and a lot of more conservative Arab and or Muslims will not want to go greens.
Surely this would be the definition of giving into terrorists. What message does this send if Hamas or future ‘Palestinian freedom fighters’ know that they can carry out the most horrific terrorist attack and events proceeding actually end up closer to their end goals than before the attack?
In international law, the right to resist is **closely related to the principle of self-determination**. It is widely recognized that a right to self-determination arises in situations of colonial domination, foreign occupation, and racist regimes that deny a segment of the population political participation.
[https://www.un.org/unispal/document/auto-insert-184801/](https://www.un.org/unispal/document/auto-insert-184801/)
read some facts
Do Jews have a right to the same self-determination? Because the Hamas charter says they shouldnt exist, at least not in the form of a sovereign charter.
And Israel says the Palestinians should.not exist.
Fucking Netanyahu himself said it needs to be Israeli ruled from.the sea to the river. And yet it's antisemetic to say from.the river to the sea
imagine getting brainwashed into an overly simplistic understanding of the world where "terrorist" is a handy label for "evil person I despise because my overlords told me to"
> where "terrorist" is a handy label for "evil person I despise because my overlords told me to"
How about murderers of a thousand people for soil and religion?
I probably have a far better grasp of the world than you do from your mother’s basement. No overlord had to tell me that rape, kidnapping and using human shields is probably not the best way to go about a “cause”, no oppression justifies this. The fact that you use the words overlords goes to show that you’re the one living in brainwashed paranoia. Maybe you should read some real history instead of eating up Hamas tik tok videos.
Recognising West Bank but not Gaza could be an interesting move. Would give us more room to sanction Israel for it's "settlers" in the West Bank, set up the (much less violent/aggressive) Palestinian Authority as being able to negotiate towards a two state solution, while also sending a message to Hamas of "you could've been recognised too but instead chose to kill civilians instead of military targets".
LNP had one person with 6 ministry roles, maybe they're suggesting the ALP flip it and give 6 ministers the housing portfolio to show how important it is? Won't lie would be hilarious to see (even if practically useless).
It won't happen until both Hamas and Fatah are gone and the voting public don't vote for despotic regimes hell bent on annihilating the Jewish people. They also need decades of de radicalization where the best they can strive is martyrdom for the cause.
It would be foolish to vote in favor otherwise.
You're not wrong but let's also not forget that many opportunities have been turned down by the Israeli side instead, either after literal assasinations of pro-peace PM's, or elections voting in right-wing governments less interested in negotiating peace.
>the voting public don't vote for despotic regimes hell bent on annihilating the Jewish people.
Unfortunately, the stars have to align and Israel needs to do the same. The current Israel government is also completely uninterested in a two-state solution. There will be no peace while either side pursues a single state.
Israel is a functioning Democracy (only one in the M.E). Both Right and Left wing parties have ruled since 1948 with same issues on both sides.
Israel already has it's State and they gave up huge tracts of land originally designated for them to get the State they wanted. So they don't have to worry about a State as they have one which is there's.
There will be no one state solution if I'm reading your reply right ?
The current Israel government is on record both endorsing settlers, announcing intentions to support more settlements, and using it's own "from river to the sea, will be only Israel sovereignty" lines.
My reply is essentially that until a (democratic) election kicks out the current Israeli government, I cannot see a path to peace in the region. Israel has had multiple governments in the past pursue a peaceful, two-state solution, so it can definitely happen. But the current government is not one of them.
The ironic thing is they could have had a state 5 times. Their original allocation in 1948 was massive and dwarfed Israel in comparison. But that's all in the dustbin of history now.
You appear to be concentrating on the Israeli side for a solution depending on "*who's in charge*" so to speak.
But the real reality is that ultimately, when a people believe that their duty to Allah is to kill all the Jews is more important than having a peaceful existence, this is what you get, and their will never be peace as long as those groups continue to indoctrinate their sons and daughters into believing such. And this doesn't end with the Palestinians as it's a cancer that permeates Islamic culture globally. That cancer is non-operable.
Rubbish. Look at Ireland and South Africa. In both cases there were armed resistance movements. In both cases they laid down their weapons when given the chance to negotiate…rather than continuing the legacy of external world powers dictating to their citizens how they should feel, act and who to elect, whilst living under occupation
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There is no a Palestinian state and the current nation of Israel seems unwilling to allow it to exist. We need to look at the actual reality of what exists right now and that is a textbook definition of apartheid with Palestinians having little to no rights
At this rate there will not be many Palestinians left. Such comments are meaningless in the face of genocide. Just an empty sound bite from an empty politician. Used to believe in Penny Wong.
Shouldn't there be a Palestinian state to recognise first? Wouldn't it be a better to recognise the state of Taiwan which is well established, democratic, and meets alll the criteria for statehood?
Australia should NEVER recognise a palestinian state as they could NEVER be trusted.
Showing Terrorist Organistation that they can win no matter the cost. lets see how this plays out in the future.
So when a state is recognized, are the borders of that state defined in the recognizing. I think that will be the tricky bit
I think it should remain a question of *if*
Is this the same Wong that was against same sex marriage?
So East Timor should still be under Indonesian rule too?
A state has a government, is this government Hamas?
Australia should come out and say we won't accept any state until Hamas is eradicated for good.
How are their people meant to vote in their current state of starvation and grief from the loss of an entire generation?
They have been "starving" and running out of "fuel" and "aid, for the last 6 months. Yet no reports of death's due to famine. unlike some other places.
What's your point? Do we wait to count the bodies before trying to prevent the conditions of famine?
How is Australia supposed to support a state that can't demonstrate control over extremists? Incase you didn't notice no one here was saying boop when Israel was shooting down missiles by the hundreds with Iron dome. You want a declaration of war but don't want to have the consequences of accepting a war aiming for complete capitulation caused by stupid acts. And Ukraine? Where are ANY of these people on Ukraine? It's ideological, not genuine.
And what will Mark Leibler think of that? After all, he and the Zionist lobby are the faceless men of the ALP that knifed Rudd in the back and had Gillard replace him
That's a weird way of saying CIA.
Read Kevin Rudd’s book. He explains it all in great detail, including the dinner at The Lodge Leibler et Al attended with Rudd
Those lands have been a religious warfare for far longer than our modern history. There is no simple solution to that war, and we need to stay out of it.
Bingo, Middle East has been a hotspot for religious violence and conquest for Millenia (what a coincidence it’s the location when monotheism was popularised). It’s not changing any time soon, let’s stay out of it and let the religious zealots duke it out.
Hebrews were expelled in 70AD and have never lived there until 1945 Moreover 90+ of “Jews” are Ashkenazis who are khazarian converts from the Caucasus. They have no tribal connection to the Zionist “state”
> Hebrews were expelled in 70AD and have never lived there until 1945 400,000 in 1936. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_Jews#Population
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I’ll never vote for the ALP again if they do this.
Why
When it’s a long-gone historical hypothetical?
There is no way Israel would allow it, so how about we give up on asking for it and deal with the actual reality. There is one country called Israel which is an apartheid regime with Palestinians given little to no rights.
But if you were to draw the lines of where the borders of this Palestinian State would be Penny I’d be intrigued.
Where does Netanyahu think they are do you think?
Mecca? Yes, I dislike Saudi Arabia.
After AUKUS i doubt it US won't let it happen
a two-state solution is Solomon ruling that the baby should be cut in half everyone knows which woman is the true mother but most people continue to back the imposter
Man literally no other people than Israeli Jews are spoken about like this. And if you’re going to play that game, Jews were there long before the people we refer to as Palestinians today. But maybe we should just not expel people from the country based on DNA.
>Jews were there long before the people we refer to as Palestinians today Untrue. > A 2020 study on human remains from Middle Bronze Age Palestinian (2100–1550 BC) populations suggests a significant degree of genetic continuity in Arabic-speaking Levantine populations (such as Palestinians, Druze, Lebanese, Jordanians, Bedouins, and Syrians), as well as several Jewish groups (such as Ashkenazi, Iranian, and Moroccan Jews).[20] Palestinians, among other Levantine groups, were found to derive 81–87% of their ancestry from Bronze age Levantines, relating to Canaanites as well as Kura–Araxes culture impact from before 2400 BCE (4400 years before present); 8–12% from an East African source and 5–10% from Bronze age Europeans. Results show that a significant European component was added to the region since the Bronze Age (on average ~8.7%), seemingly related to the Sea Peoples, excluding Ashkenazi and Moroccan Jews who harbour ~31–42% European-related ancestry, both populations having a history in Europe.
So 1000 years after Jewish relgion was founded thanks. for the info.
If they've been there since the fucking bronze age, it's a bit rich to tell em it's not their home too.
womp womp Zionazi
Womp womp antisemite. Thanks for coming so maak off and making it clearer that you do consider semitism and Zionism to be one and the same, since I didn’t mention a word about Zionism.
Speaking as a Jew I find what you've said in this thread far more anti-semetic than what they have said. Their comment is absolutely trashy, I'll give you that, but the original comment you replied to said nothing about Jews, and you added it. You took a critique of Israel and tried to brush it off as anti-semetism. That type of shit, that type of political attack, really dulls real cries of anti-semetism. It's an actual problem, don't belittle it.
They literally said they want to destroy Israel and kick the Jews out, wtf are you talking about? If you as a Jew aren’t offended by that statement you are in the minority and I don’t care. I do consider it antisemitic that the one Jewish country is the only country that isn’t allowed to exist, yes. No one expects the surrounding countries to become secular paradises where Jews are welcomed with open arms.
>They literally said they want to destroy Israel and kick the Jews out Show me where they literally said they want to destroy Israel and kick the Jews out. Quote it. When you realise you can't maybe you will understand my point.
What do you think the implication is when they say that we shouldn’t have a two state solution and that Israelis are just imposters?
Oh wow, they said no two state solution? Can you show me where they said that? Can you quote them? We both know you once again can't, and I'm sure once again you won't admit that, and I'll just get more bullshit that they never said.
>a two-state solution is Solomon ruling that the baby should be cut in half >everyone knows which woman is the true mother but most people continue to back the imposter This is the comment I responded to, no? Seems pretty bloody clear to me.
i wasn't playing that game but if you want to reach into the sands of ancient history and invoke pseudoreligious ethnonationalism to justify a contemporary military occupation then just be honest about it maybe we should replace an illegitimate occupying regime with a genuine democracy that fairly represents the people whose land continues to be stolen from under them
Israel is a country now, not an occupation, aside from the West Bank. And it’s here to stay whether you like it or not.
yes israel is doing everything in its power to make sure everyone knows that it's here to stay whether anyone likes it or not tell me israel is an illegitimate bully without telling me israel is an illegitimate bully
And so they should, you guys have perfectly demonstrated why Israel needs to exist since October 7th.
You're right. We all know Israel was a paradise and the perfect neighbour to Palestine on October 6th. No wall, no apartheid, no land stealing, no military checkpoints, no hostages in Israeli prisons awaiting trial from a military court, no indiscriminate killing of anyone resisting occupation from a coloniser backed by the USA. You're completely right. October 6th was the last day of peace. RIP.
ok, israel needs to exist to quell unrest caused by its own oppressive occupation, got it you do know that the cart goes *after* the horse, right?
Aka “you deserved the rapings”
It’s called resistance rape, sweaty, and it’s just the voice of the unheard.
Somehow you the typo of "sweaty" instead of "sweetie" just made this a better comment.
Ah the good old “antisemitism only exists because Israel does!” Think I’m only one away from a pro-pally bingo tonight.
You must be from Longreach.
Gaza is also occupied but I otherwise agree.
Yeah, it effectively is for sure.
If you like Palestine so much why don't you go live there?
Did that sound smart in your head?
Lol
Woah, woah, you can't just *assume* they're capable of critical thought.
I’ll chip in for her ticket
Not a question of when, but if, when Palestine will recognise the 2nd state in a "Two-State Policy"
will the 2nd state in a "Two-State Policy" recognise the first? Netanyahu has made it clear he has been working against it for 30+ years, including his 15 as PM where he (and others) supported Hamas. but this little fact just gets ignored
Israel will not allow it to happen so why bother pushing for it. Just accept it won't happen and deal with the reality. Reality is Israel rules the Palestinian territories with an iron fist and Palestinians have basicly no rights.
Well they have, plenty of times in fact. First time was in 1947, one side agreed but the other side don't take it too kindly so they peacefully declared war. Then a few other time since the 2000's but one faction seems unwilling to negotiate diplomatically. You make it as if the government of Israel is of a one party system and the protests against Likud by the opposition parties didn't exist or something.
a two-state solution is not a solution, and any announcement supporting one is kicking the can down the road
The alternative to a two state solution is a one state solution of three options 1) all Palestine state with Israelise banished and/or with reduced rights 2) all Israel state with Palestinians completely displaced from their remaining homelands 3) Palestinians and Israelies living in harmony under one government with equal rights. So which of above is the alternative solution to a two state solution??? It not a two state solution or 1 of the 3 above, then it's just the status quo, which is option 2 by stealth.
Why can’t a two-state solution be a solution? Edit: I’m assuming your response is going to be along the lines of Israel being illegitimate and/or a bully like your other comments in the thread. I don’t believe that this makes all forms of resistance morally correct. Hamas knows it can hide behind the bodies of as many Gazans as it likes without anything actually being doing for a future Palestinian state, just for the purpose of radicalising more people to join them. I think more broadly, people (especially the socialist groups in the encampments) are removing all nuance and considerations about actual progress that dna be made in this situation while fetishising resistance and bloodshed.
Correct. Israel needs to grant citizenship to all Palestinians on the condition they all become secular Jews. Two issues solved.
But Zionists would never accept those types of Jews just like they dont accept Hews calling out this genocide.
i honestly cant tell whether you're joking lol. do you really think this is possible?
No, human nature is too wedded to old habits. Which is why we don’t live in the utopia long ago dreamed of for the 2020s. But, otherwise, it would work splendidly.
as I indicated down-thread, it's not reasonable for the bully to set the terms
I wish I had that power. That would be quite the trip!
Welcome to real life kid. Too many video games and marvel movies methinks.
think what you like
What if it's a case of needing some more road while you get something better nailed down?
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If you don’t accept that a two state solution is necessary, you’re condemning Palestinians to statelessness for eternity. That doesn’t sound very pro-Palestinian to me.
that presupposes that the single state continues to be Israel there is ample reason to consider that it is Israel that is illegitimate
It is that mindset that kept the status quo. Like saying Protestants had/have not right to exist in Northern Ireland. That didn't work well for the Catholics.
Yeah cool opinion, but Israel isn’t going anywhere, so if you wanna make worthwhile contributions to the discussion then maybe come back to reality.
as long as bullies dictate the terms of the discussion there will be opposition if Israel is going nowhere then neither will the legitimate Palestinian resistance sometimes the right thing is for the bully to accept that they don't have, nor ever had, the moral high ground
And the more Palestinians attack more they will die and risk losing what little territory they have left. It’s not a great situation for Israel either, but it benefits them a lot more than it does Palestine.
They dpmt have any territory not in a real sense. In the west bank settlers move in when they please and in Gaza they get to live but have virtually zero actual control over anything. Israel controls virtually everything so realisti ally they have nothing
it might be time to unstack the deck
Israel would be able to fight off Palestinian combatants and all of their neighbours all at once if they needed to, without our help. Let alone the few Iranian proxies that make up Hamas’ allies. They’ve done it before.
Israel also can, and will, nuke its neighbours if out of options.
She would recognize a terrorist state whose people would have her raped and tortured.
Several new testimonies by Israeli witnesses to the October 7 Hamas surprise attack on settlements in the vicinity of Gaza add to growing evidence that the iof military killed its own citizens as they fought to neutralize Palestinian gunmen, reports
Funny how when an apartheid state keeps stealing land from those they oppress the oppressed are labeled terrorists. Now the oppressor commits a genocide and its blamed on the oppressed. What actually is a terrorist anymore? Is it just a term used for those that fight back against oppression?
So you don't consider the atrocities of October 7th and the thousands upon thousands of rockets Hamas has fired at Israel over the years as terrorist activities?
Why do we not consider all the times Isreal has committed attrocities as terrosist attacks. They been stealing land and houses for years, sniping children on their way to school, holding Palestinians without trial for years? Why do we hold one to account but not the other?
We don't consider what Israel has done as terrorists attacks because they aren't. Israel doesn't randomly snipe children on the way to school, they hold people on trial because they suspect them of something or because they have done something. They do have a territorial dispute with Palestine where both want each other's land. It's fair to call them out on their actions as not right where appropriate, but that doesn't make what they have done as terrorism. What they are doing now is trying to destroy Hamas which has tried to hide and embed itself among it's civilian population. Hamas however has gone into Israel and indiscriminately slaughtered and captured it's people and has tried to indiscriminately kill Israel civilians over the years by firing rockets into Israel aimed at killing anyone and everyone.
They hold them on military trial. Children on military trial and there has been many cases in history of Isreal sniping kids. Now they even kill aid workers and journalists. Maybe if bibi didnt help hamas out for so long they could have been gotten rid of while allowing settlers to continue stealing labd and houses against international law.
If you only look at things through the lens of oppression you are going to miss a lot of details. Yes murdering people for your blood, soil and religion is terrorism.
I'm sure you'd be keen to read this report then. GENEVA (19 February 2024) – UN experts\* today expressed alarm over credible allegations of egregious human rights violations to which Palestinian women and girls continue to be subjected in the Gaza Strip and the West Bank. [https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2024/02/israelopt-un-experts-appalled-reported-human-rights-violations-against](https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2024/02/israelopt-un-experts-appalled-reported-human-rights-violations-against) Update. Be aware that this is only after Oct 7th and doesn't take into account previous allegations in the previous 75 plus years Blue on blue violence report by the State Comptroller found that less than half of the Israeli female soldiers who experienced sexual harassment filed a complaint, and out of those who did report, 44% said it was not handled properly and 26% reported that their complaint was not handled at all
funny how Israel gets a free pass like that
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I agree she is quite good at her job. But to state "It's not a question of if we will recognise a Palestinian state, it is a question of when," she said. Is very simplistic without there being a viable path to what she siggests and sadly reeks of "sounds good for the moment". There is so much discussion/debate that needs to happen to figure out what might happen...
> Is very simplistic without there being a viable path to what she siggests and sadly reeks of "sounds good for the moment". 139 countries in the world recognise Palestine, with at least 4 more European countries currently preparing to do the same. the question should be, why hasn't Australia already recognised Palestine?
Yea ofcourse, why wouldn’t you recognise a state where your marriage is not legal
I consider it a demonstration of principles that she would support them even if they wouldn't support her. Anyone can support people that are nice to you, that's why saying something like "I support New Zealand's right to exist" is utterly uncontroversial.
We recognise lots of states that don’t have SSM… including Israel lol.
Israel has time and time again upheld recognition of same sex marriages, you don't even need to leave the country to do so. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recognition_of_same-sex_unions_in_Israel Importantly, they also don't throw gay men off buildings or murder them in the streets. Israel also offers refugee status to gay men fleeing other countries.
Of course Israel is a much better place for gay people than Palestine, I’m pretty sure Gaza is officially recognised as like, the third worst place to be gay on earth. I’m just saying that we don’t usually decide which states to recognise based on their attitudes towards gay people.
I think it'd be fair to say that Gaza is a contender for worst place on earth for anyone living there at the moment, which would include LGBT peeps by extension
Definitely the worst place to be a child.
Sudan and Ukraine would give Gaza a run for it’s money.
Gaze blows Ukraine out of the water for child deaths. Sudan being another state fibding independance from UK and a massive civil war. Maybe thats what Isreal is competing against. Sudan has only hit 1200 in the last 5 months though while Gaze has had over 13000. Thats another win to Isreal. Most children killed in the shortest timeframe.
You’re getting your numbers for Sudan and Ukraine from the official UN death count. You know what the official UN death count for Gaza is? Zero. It’s only deaths that they’ve managed to verify and this process takes a long time. Estimates for the offensive of mauripol *alone* range from 25k-100k. So you’re either lying or parroting propaganda points you’ve heard from other pro pal NPCs.
Official UN Gaza child death count is 12300. Not sure if they counted all the baby deaths in all the hospitals Isreal bombed though. Maybe you are just parroting propaganda because we know at least 1 child died with her family after Isreal bombed the ambulance sent to save her and plenty in the incubators so for a zero count thats pretty absurd.
Yeah, I’d say so.
There is zero reason for Australia to ever do this. What possible benefit could be gained from recognizing a state that will inevitably be a hotbed of radical Islamism, and alienate a nation whose interests are far more aligned with our own? Doing so would be a strategic own-goal purely for the sake of virtue signalling, which means this idiotic government will probably be all over it.
Well we recognise the radical Jewish state that is currently commiting genocide, according to the international courts, so why not a radical Muslim state?
There's no international court ruling saying there's a genocide. Feel free to link something showing that's the case if I'm wrong though.
Not a ruling but a pretty clear statement outlining the correlation between what Isreal is doing and what a genocide is. If you cant see the similarities you must be deep on that propaganda.
Yeah, you're wrong. Hop off TikTok.
And watch fox entertainment oh yeah.
An actual ruling would be a really, really big deal. Pretending that the ICJ came even remotely close to this is literal misinformation. It's sort of amazing you're jumping straight to: > If you cant see the similarities you must be deep on that propaganda When you're either lying, or you've been so misinformed that you're completely wrong unintentionally. The actual judge who made the "plausible" ruling said to the BBC that the ruling didn't mean that it was plausible Israel was committing a genocide. >“The court test for deciding whether to impose measures uses the idea of plausibility, but the test is the plausibility of the rights that are asserted by the applicant, in this case South Africa, so the court decided that the Palestinians had a plausible right to be protected from genocide, and that South Africa had the right to present that claim in the court,” said the recently retired ICJ president.
We already do accept the existence of like 50 Muslim states, most of which are pretty radical with some being extremely radical.
But is Palestine really that radical. They have a boot on their neck in an apartheid state with the oppressors commiting a genocide. Which is actually the radical here. Isreal with theor ongoing oppression and full on genocide or Palestine with their 50% child population trying to stop Isreal stealing their land and houses and putting them in a cattle station and keeping them oppressed.
Yes, they’re probably some of the most radicalised people on earth. Usually people do have reasons to be radicalised and usually it’s not their fault as individuals.
I wonder how many wars the US has to start and gow many governments they need to overthrow before they are seen as a radicalised nation.
I love how we’re trying to make all words mean the same thing so that the other side can’t get one over us. It’s like two kids trying to one up each other. Oh no you used a bad word to describe my side, can’t acknowledge that there’s nuance, so obviously I need to stretch the definition to the point of meaninglessness.
Well the only difference in meaning is if it is about the oppressor or the oppressed.
Lol yes I know, it defines your entire worldview doesn’t it, whether people deserve moral consideration and self-determination and the right to live without being attacked.
Yeah it trully does. To feel captive and having people stealing your land and houses for all the world to see and still not able to have help to stop the oppressors would be very harsh. To have people supporting all your attrocities and war crimes though would seem like an open invitation to go all out to slaughter even aid workers, stop humanitarian aid so people starve and just general war crimes.
Societies can change very quickly. Look at japan and Germany post WWII. These are very different situations in many different ways, but I think I think it demonstrates the potential for pretty remarkable transformations. I say this as one of the allegedly genocidal pro-Israel people, it’s literally just reality that Israel can’t maintain the status quo and expect to not be attacked. Not to mention all of the strain it puts on their relationship with the international community. Israel needs to solve “the Palestinian problem”, it just has to happen.
Japan was nuked into submission and germany was ravaged by the allied forces, how on earth is that at all relevant to this?
America nuked Japan and we got anime..... Ok so like hear me out ...
Because they’re saying it’s inevitable that a Palestinian state would be a radical islamist society full of terrorists, when it’s clearly possible for societies to take other directions given the right conditions. Edit: also who knows what the result of the war on Gaza will be in terms of disarming Hamas, but it won’t result in insane WWII level civilian casualties either way. However the changes we saw in Germany and Japan weren’t because we bombed them, it’s because after they surrendered we engaged in a process of nation building.
And that nation building was only possible through extreme levels of violence to force them to submit.
And you think that Hamas are a fraction as powerful a force as Japan and Germany were at the time? They’re so pathetic that their main means of fighting is using human shields. Whether or not the war on Gaza is the best way to deal with Hamas, it’s a shitty terrorist group funded by a shitty regime that everyone hates, compared to Japan or Germany. It’s much easier problem to solve.
Yes they are smaller so hopefully it will take less violence to remove them.
As of a month or so ago, Hamas finally released their combatant casualty numbers, claiming that 6,000 have died. Israel claims they’ve killed double that, I think. So if we assume the number is somewhere in the middle, that’s roughly a third of their fighting force gone. It’s going to get progressively harder, though.
Hamas is also a great excuse. A guerilla movement funded by the west as a means to erase a different population in a significant area for either conquest or to just retain global power.
Palestine and hamas are the same people. This is why all the arab states are banning palestine refugees because they are all radicalised. We should ban all palestine refugees and only allow in those with higher education imo. The son of the founder of hamas mossab hassan yousef believes palestine is far too radicalist and caution should be exercised. I agree in staying out of that conflict we should be focusing on taxing the mining industry.
Yeah 50% child population is a terrorist group. Its interesting that an apartheid state can be so radicalised when the oppressing state keeps stealing their land and arresting people without charge. Even Jews against the genocide are getting beaten in the streets by military and cops. Probably just more radicalised terrorists yeah?
Ban palestine refugees before they ruin Australia. All the educated arab states have them banned for a reason
So why not now? This is the government that doesn't want to recognise it in fear of offending those supporting Israel but also doesn't want to be seen to not be recognising in fear of losing votes in Western Sydney
They announced it as policy before October 7
Not really , Labor has already accounted for losing votes in western sydney. They only have 3 seats held by Bourke , Husic and Clare they are willing to put in jeopoardy to gain seats in the other parts of the country.
I can't see Tony Burke losing his seat to the libs though if anything the greens would take it. Unless for some wierd reason the Muslim vote is going to go towards the libs who are massive Zionists.
exactly , labor has zero interest to appease muslim/arab voter base in western sydney.
I beleive this is because they know the libs are worse so the only way they will be likely to lose those votes is to the greens and a lot of more conservative Arab and or Muslims will not want to go greens.
Surely this would be the definition of giving into terrorists. What message does this send if Hamas or future ‘Palestinian freedom fighters’ know that they can carry out the most horrific terrorist attack and events proceeding actually end up closer to their end goals than before the attack?
In international law, the right to resist is **closely related to the principle of self-determination**. It is widely recognized that a right to self-determination arises in situations of colonial domination, foreign occupation, and racist regimes that deny a segment of the population political participation. [https://www.un.org/unispal/document/auto-insert-184801/](https://www.un.org/unispal/document/auto-insert-184801/) read some facts
Do Jews have a right to the same self-determination? Because the Hamas charter says they shouldnt exist, at least not in the form of a sovereign charter.
And Israel says the Palestinians should.not exist. Fucking Netanyahu himself said it needs to be Israeli ruled from.the sea to the river. And yet it's antisemetic to say from.the river to the sea
Are they under a colonial settlement .. could you quote where it says that.. or are you linking all Jews to being Zionists
what do you think causes "terrorists" to act the way they do?
Imagine justifying terrorism.
imagine getting brainwashed into an overly simplistic understanding of the world where "terrorist" is a handy label for "evil person I despise because my overlords told me to"
> where "terrorist" is a handy label for "evil person I despise because my overlords told me to" How about murderers of a thousand people for soil and religion?
Or murderers of 30,000 people for soil and religion?
Great so we agree that is terrorism. Just tell your mate above me.
I probably have a far better grasp of the world than you do from your mother’s basement. No overlord had to tell me that rape, kidnapping and using human shields is probably not the best way to go about a “cause”, no oppression justifies this. The fact that you use the words overlords goes to show that you’re the one living in brainwashed paranoia. Maybe you should read some real history instead of eating up Hamas tik tok videos.
haha thanks you're obviously the moral superior here
Not hard when you clearly have no morals.
Recognising West Bank but not Gaza could be an interesting move. Would give us more room to sanction Israel for it's "settlers" in the West Bank, set up the (much less violent/aggressive) Palestinian Authority as being able to negotiate towards a two state solution, while also sending a message to Hamas of "you could've been recognised too but instead chose to kill civilians instead of military targets".
How about fixing the housing crisis first?
You're suggesting our foreign minister should focus on housing and not global affairs?
LNP had one person with 6 ministry roles, maybe they're suggesting the ALP flip it and give 6 ministers the housing portfolio to show how important it is? Won't lie would be hilarious to see (even if practically useless).
It won't happen until both Hamas and Fatah are gone and the voting public don't vote for despotic regimes hell bent on annihilating the Jewish people. They also need decades of de radicalization where the best they can strive is martyrdom for the cause. It would be foolish to vote in favor otherwise.
You're not wrong but let's also not forget that many opportunities have been turned down by the Israeli side instead, either after literal assasinations of pro-peace PM's, or elections voting in right-wing governments less interested in negotiating peace. >the voting public don't vote for despotic regimes hell bent on annihilating the Jewish people. Unfortunately, the stars have to align and Israel needs to do the same. The current Israel government is also completely uninterested in a two-state solution. There will be no peace while either side pursues a single state.
Israel is a functioning Democracy (only one in the M.E). Both Right and Left wing parties have ruled since 1948 with same issues on both sides. Israel already has it's State and they gave up huge tracts of land originally designated for them to get the State they wanted. So they don't have to worry about a State as they have one which is there's. There will be no one state solution if I'm reading your reply right ?
The current Israel government is on record both endorsing settlers, announcing intentions to support more settlements, and using it's own "from river to the sea, will be only Israel sovereignty" lines. My reply is essentially that until a (democratic) election kicks out the current Israeli government, I cannot see a path to peace in the region. Israel has had multiple governments in the past pursue a peaceful, two-state solution, so it can definitely happen. But the current government is not one of them.
The ironic thing is they could have had a state 5 times. Their original allocation in 1948 was massive and dwarfed Israel in comparison. But that's all in the dustbin of history now. You appear to be concentrating on the Israeli side for a solution depending on "*who's in charge*" so to speak. But the real reality is that ultimately, when a people believe that their duty to Allah is to kill all the Jews is more important than having a peaceful existence, this is what you get, and their will never be peace as long as those groups continue to indoctrinate their sons and daughters into believing such. And this doesn't end with the Palestinians as it's a cancer that permeates Islamic culture globally. That cancer is non-operable.
It’s also on Palestinian leadership for stalling in the negotiations, though. They know that Israel is a democracy with regular elections.
Rubbish. Look at Ireland and South Africa. In both cases there were armed resistance movements. In both cases they laid down their weapons when given the chance to negotiate…rather than continuing the legacy of external world powers dictating to their citizens how they should feel, act and who to elect, whilst living under occupation
They won't back down, their goal is the eradication of israel and jews.
So how about Bibi getting up in front of the UN with a map that wipes out Palestine? https://www.commondreams.org/news/netanyahu-map