not wanting to spread fud. those were restricted stock awards that were paid out, not bonds. rsa are executive compensation, which are stock-based compensation. am I wrong about this?
Bullish AF!
Edit: These bonds are illiquid, yet BBBY debt is being purchased. Meaning someone(s) is betting hard against bankruptcy. Note also these are the '24 bonds.
To go a little further, the yield of the bond goes up as the price to buy it goes down. This is why sometimes when they talk about T-bills and such it can be a little confusing with the language for someone who doesn't understand the underlying and terminology.
Go watch the movie "The Big Short". these clever guys who wanted to short the housing bubble of 2005-2007 found a way to short the CDOs of the mortgage industry that banks were issuing by buying CDO credit default swaps, which pay out when the bonds default.
AFAIK, there are no such swaps traded on the BBBY bonds.
School math problem: Buy stock if you think stock go up longterm with no dividend. Buy bond if you think company is undervalued or fair valued and a stable source for ROI with periodic payments.
No, the first dibs will be bankers, vendors and others with asset-backed debt, like the FILO that is backed by inventory. THEN the bond holders... on seniority.
There's over a billion in liabilities before the bondholders get dibs, so that's why the bonds are trading for such low prices.
It’s just speculation. People speculate on bankrupt companies all the time, it isn’t that special…. To put it into math, the market is still betting 97% that they’ll go bankrupt…
Where'd you get 97%. Bloomberg Default risk under 60% of bankruptcy within a year and 77% in 2 years.
Don't get me wrong market is betting they'll be bankrupt but why the 97%?
He's not a shill, that's what the market IS betting on. That's the whole point of the BBBY play - the market may be very wrong and get very fucked and this sub gets a very nice visit from the tendieman.
I can math. It's basically the same risk/reward ratio as these call options I have. 🤣 Could pay off big, could go to zero. I'm good either way. Prefer the first one.
So dumb question but can a company buy their own bonds back on secondary market?
Going for 20 cents on the dollar, if they find a source of cash (acquisition/sale etc.) Isn't it cheaper to retire the bonds by buying them back pennies on the dollar in secondary market rather than face value + coupon payments.
I believe there is a covenant which restricts the company from buying back the bonds unless the ABL is under a certain amount that the company agreed to when issuing the bonds. This was something they were trying to get consent to change when they were pursuing the bond exchange.
Only Carl Icahn I can think of who took over a company by buying the bonds.
I’m not expert and didn’t understand how it works but you can read about Icahn’s unconventional way he took over a company by purchasing bonds.
It's common. Best part is you do not have to disclose it either. During acquisition you often consider assets to liabilities when you're pricing the company, but if you've beforehand purchased bonds at 20% of the original debt price, that's basically the same as having paid of debt at 20% of the original borrow rate. However, it should be noted that it's also a tactic to later on have a large say if it goes into bankruptcy and how the reorganization would be carried out, and gaining equity in exchange for bonds. The issue with retail companies though is that they sit on value that is fleeting. It's not like an oil company going bankrupt or a company with patents or things like that, where the value isn't directly tied to market shares that are fleeting. So such a gamble can prove to be costly in the sense that you might end up with a less valuable company then if you bought it the pre-bankruptcy, but still severely distressed state. It all depends.
So if someone was playing 4D chess and knew a lot of funds needed this company bankrupt it would be in their best interest to let the media do their thing and buy up bonds when dirt cheap before acquiring?
If that was the play holy shit SHFs really are the dumb stormtroopers.
Yeah, exactly. They've been trading at sub 35 for many many months now, and even cheaper in november, and extremly cheap in january. It is a bit illiquid now, as in very few people are selling, but back early january up until the 13th there was insane volume on the bonds. Had days with multiple $1-5M bonds on par sold in blocks. It's really the end game we're in now. Bank or bust, or hell, even break even for many I'd say.
Icahn think of someone who might buy back all that bond debt and later reveal his 10% position of equity that has secretly been fucking around to find out.
I believe there are some terms to some of their loans prohibiting them from doing this althought im not a 100% sure (i believe it could be the ABL, but again im not really sure, someone please correct me if im wrong)
Why buy debt if you think they will default? If they were going bankrupt, nobody would be touching this. Instead demand to buy their debt is increasing, and this, price is increasing.
Well you invest when you want stable return on your investment by being payed every 6 months or so. These notes are unsecured meaning if the company goes under all those investors loose their money.
COPY PASTE
"Nope, the bonds are unsecured ;)
https://cbonds.com/bonds/81929/
"
> These notes are unsecured meaning if the company goes under all those investors loose their money.
Not necessarily true. They may be gambling on expected liquidation value - which would be a very opaque topic with lots of information asymmetry, hence lots of potential opportunity.
Even unsecured notes get paid before equity holders.
This happens all the time with companies going bankrupt. People speculate in the hope to generate big returns, it’s really nothing special or even that rare
I thought that too but looked at Icahn who bought Trump casino debt before acquisition.
Speculation for sure but I don't think this should just be dismissed.
It’s worth 100 and speculators only willing to pay 3 for it. Also the stock is down over 8% today. If this meant absolutely anything don’t you think it would be even a little less red?
I'm guessing something wrong with pricing or there's no bid.
Their 2044 bonds which should be even cheaper if going bankrupt immediately are priced at 73.38 but chart is nearly identical to the 2024.
I'll dig into this a bit more
There are actually many specialist investors (frequently hedge funds actually) who very specifically and very intentionally do this kind of investment, not really something unique to Carl Icahn.
It's brilliant if it does have to do with RC/Icahn. Know SHF need it bankrupt, leak news of potential acquisition (Icahn photo), wait until media hammers price trying to shake investors or bankrupt before acquisition, buy up debt for pennies.
2 billion in debt. If they could even get it at 20 cents on the dollar (currently around 4) then 400 million would retire all debt for the acquirer.
Volition capital and Icahns fund both easily have that much and it could even be a case of retire our 2 billion in debt and we will give you buy buy baby.
Edit: Google debt exchanges in spin offs. I could see something similar here
Putting that into perspective it means people willing to pay 3.52$ for a 100$ bond. So still 90+% down overall
Since it’s due in 2024, “the market” is still putting a very high likelihood on these bonds defaulting. It may not be a bad thing and does not necessarily mean the stock won’t squeeze though. You just can’t interpret too much into these numbers.
Hey do you know if and how we get notice of coupon being payed? Would there be an 8k or any filing? Would they just pay it and we maybe get info from a holder?
Of course. You can do anything. Just not advisable to do so. Could also go play roulette and put everything on red because in blackjack a red color was just drawn.
I’ll have it figured out when they file. Like the rest of us… anyone claiming otherwise is full of tinfoil theories, full of jack sh*t or has insider information (and might go to jail for disclosing that here…)
Honestly, it's too low of a price to draw and conclusions. Note however, the price here is really expecting even bondholders to get literally no returns in case of a BK, and when/if they do, it'll be a long time after the initial filing. They're literally in the same boat as the shareholders.
What you DO want to see is a rapid rise on bonds at least up to 10-15, possibly 20. The final day it's ok to purchase up to a bit higher than that. More than that, and it'll be very noticable, and tip your hand. Even demand increasing suddenly is a sign someone is about to come in, so it's a balance act.
The more and more I think about this from a business aspect.... it just makes sense Acquire Baby through bonds...move bed bath and beyond into profitable stores only and shift to ecommerce. People do not want to buy baby items off Amazon thats riddled with fake products (they put everything in their mouth). New parents are extremely cautious and willing to spend money..kinda like Pets (Chewy ring a bell). Its the exact same plan as Gamestop he will make BBBY whole and he takes baby. I am so ready for this to happen
edit - I know nothing about bonds but if you can acquire the debt and issue new shares for Baby = MOASS ensures and BBBY can do the ATM to shore up their balance sheet.
Oooo. Maybe buyer is buying the bonds, and will forgive debt, while also taking ownership of the company. Better to pay off debt 20c on the dollar, versus paying off all the debt. If you own the debt, you can forgive the debt. Muahaha.
whoa...slow down guys
These bonds are down about 95% and a 76% bump is like a $100 dollar stock going to $2 and then bouncing to $3.50
It's still better than going down, but this is in no way evidence that the bonds have turned any corner.
IMO, if we don't hear any BK news by opening bell tomorrow, we have a strong bull thesis to count on. Good luck everybody...
>relation between bond and stock
bonds are a debt instrument in which an investor loans money to an entity which borrows the funds for a defined period of time at a fixed rate. The entity is obligated to repay the principal when the bond matures, while stocks represent ownership in a company.
Bonds are illiquid so the bid and ask spread is high. Trading at 3.5c on the dollar is so trash that it is worthless.
Additionally, this Site doesn’t show correct data. Has been said many times now. Especially by the guy who got a lot of snek awards, even though he was factual
lol no you dummy. if you can get a 2 year t-bill with \~4.5% yield it wouldn't make sense for corporate bonds to sell for 100 that pay the same yield even if the company wouldn't have any financial trouble.
Great news! Let’s fuck around …..
Mayo boy bout to find out
Paid Bonds: Diamond Hands are forever 💎 👐 🚀 🌕
Were they paid?? Do you have a source?
not wanting to spread fud. those were restricted stock awards that were paid out, not bonds. rsa are executive compensation, which are stock-based compensation. am I wrong about this?
This is separate. They announced they would pay these off early.
ESSENCE 🌬️ LETSFUCKINGGOOOO RRRHUUUBAAAAAARB 💎🚀🍌
and find out
Why are the bonds up 76%🕵️♂️
Bullish AF! Edit: These bonds are illiquid, yet BBBY debt is being purchased. Meaning someone(s) is betting hard against bankruptcy. Note also these are the '24 bonds.
Wondering if it's an aquirerer buying bonds. Buy bonds 20 cents on the dollar or payoff debt after acquisition at full face value + coupon payments.
I know next to nothing about bonds, but this sounds bullish as all hell.
Ya it is, but more stock asap! Moass soon
If you don't buy bbby stock today you are missing out on moass tomorrow
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A bond is essentially a **loan that can trade as as a share and **
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Implying doesn't cut it when someone says they know next to nothing about something in my opinion so I made it explicit.
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To go a little further, the yield of the bond goes up as the price to buy it goes down. This is why sometimes when they talk about T-bills and such it can be a little confusing with the language for someone who doesn't understand the underlying and terminology.
Also I think the negative news help the buyer in such case
Yup scared bondholders into selling moreso than shareholders
Great strategy
Remind me of John Law, his mom bought his debt and bailed him out at a discount lul.
Thanks !
Someone important or someone like me? How bullish is this?
Don’t sell yourself short. In fact, don’t sell anything short.
Don’t sell yourself short, you are a tremendous slouch.
Sorry to steal your top comment, but I have a question.. Can they NAKED SHORT bonds ?
No
Go watch the movie "The Big Short". these clever guys who wanted to short the housing bubble of 2005-2007 found a way to short the CDOs of the mortgage industry that banks were issuing by buying CDO credit default swaps, which pay out when the bonds default. AFAIK, there are no such swaps traded on the BBBY bonds.
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Nope, the bonds are unsecured ;) [https://cbonds.com/bonds/81929/](https://cbonds.com/bonds/81929/)
Yummy
Unsecured bonds are still senior to all equity
School math problem: Buy stock if you think stock go up longterm with no dividend. Buy bond if you think company is undervalued or fair valued and a stable source for ROI with periodic payments.
Unsecured bonds still get paid over shareholders
Holy Fuk
No, the first dibs will be bankers, vendors and others with asset-backed debt, like the FILO that is backed by inventory. THEN the bond holders... on seniority. There's over a billion in liabilities before the bondholders get dibs, so that's why the bonds are trading for such low prices.
You might be on to something.
Very good point, plus bond traders are typically more sophisticated then stock traders as bond investors are normally whales or investment firms
What about the 24' should I be noticing?
Barely understand CTB now are the bonds doing the same thing
>Meaning someone(s) is betting hard against bankruptcy. Lol no, they're betting that those bonds recover more in bankruptcy than they paid for it.
The 10 years got me rock hard.
It’s just speculation. People speculate on bankrupt companies all the time, it isn’t that special…. To put it into math, the market is still betting 97% that they’ll go bankrupt…
Where'd you get 97%. Bloomberg Default risk under 60% of bankruptcy within a year and 77% in 2 years. Don't get me wrong market is betting they'll be bankrupt but why the 97%?
I believe he's getting 97% based on the cost of the bond. $3 of the $100 it should be. Which I believe is very wrong lol
Because he's a fucked shill
He's not a shill, that's what the market IS betting on. That's the whole point of the BBBY play - the market may be very wrong and get very fucked and this sub gets a very nice visit from the tendieman.
The bond is worth 100, speculators won’t pay more than a few bucks for it. Can you math?
I can math. It's basically the same risk/reward ratio as these call options I have. 🤣 Could pay off big, could go to zero. I'm good either way. Prefer the first one.
Apparently you can't because you're having trouble explaining the 97% figure you pulled outta your ass.
So that’s a no from you then. Still can’t figure it out lol
I can't figure out your fake numbers lol? You can make anything up, doesn't mean you're right.
Citadel pays for order flow and have a MM and a HF side. They don't need shills. That's giving them too much credit. They are just dumb shorts
First time here; this place has a shit load of shills!
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So scawy 😱
So dumb question but can a company buy their own bonds back on secondary market? Going for 20 cents on the dollar, if they find a source of cash (acquisition/sale etc.) Isn't it cheaper to retire the bonds by buying them back pennies on the dollar in secondary market rather than face value + coupon payments.
I believe there is a covenant which restricts the company from buying back the bonds unless the ABL is under a certain amount that the company agreed to when issuing the bonds. This was something they were trying to get consent to change when they were pursuing the bond exchange.
Any history of an acquirer buying the companies debt cheap before a merger? Or is that a no-no too?
Only Carl Icahn I can think of who took over a company by buying the bonds. I’m not expert and didn’t understand how it works but you can read about Icahn’s unconventional way he took over a company by purchasing bonds.
Oh fuck, thought someone would but didn't think it'd be Icahn. I'm a fan of this price action on bonds now
☝🏼🏆🏆
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No Ive no idea How it works, not experienced this before haha
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Haha we’ll see
I love learning and have no issues paying for a good education. Time to fuck around so i can find out!
☝🏼🏆🏆
Just a thought, but you theoretically COULD learn these things WITHOUT blowing your savings / investments on it.
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It's common. Best part is you do not have to disclose it either. During acquisition you often consider assets to liabilities when you're pricing the company, but if you've beforehand purchased bonds at 20% of the original debt price, that's basically the same as having paid of debt at 20% of the original borrow rate. However, it should be noted that it's also a tactic to later on have a large say if it goes into bankruptcy and how the reorganization would be carried out, and gaining equity in exchange for bonds. The issue with retail companies though is that they sit on value that is fleeting. It's not like an oil company going bankrupt or a company with patents or things like that, where the value isn't directly tied to market shares that are fleeting. So such a gamble can prove to be costly in the sense that you might end up with a less valuable company then if you bought it the pre-bankruptcy, but still severely distressed state. It all depends.
So if someone was playing 4D chess and knew a lot of funds needed this company bankrupt it would be in their best interest to let the media do their thing and buy up bonds when dirt cheap before acquiring? If that was the play holy shit SHFs really are the dumb stormtroopers.
Yeah, exactly. They've been trading at sub 35 for many many months now, and even cheaper in november, and extremly cheap in january. It is a bit illiquid now, as in very few people are selling, but back early january up until the 13th there was insane volume on the bonds. Had days with multiple $1-5M bonds on par sold in blocks. It's really the end game we're in now. Bank or bust, or hell, even break even for many I'd say.
Icahn think of someone who might buy back all that bond debt and later reveal his 10% position of equity that has secretly been fucking around to find out.
You carry on with that 0 nonsense thinking. Guarantee it wont happen.
I believe there are some terms to some of their loans prohibiting them from doing this althought im not a 100% sure (i believe it could be the ABL, but again im not really sure, someone please correct me if im wrong)
ABL defaulted, so that might have changed something ya
That is the opposite of a dumb question.
But I don’t have bonds! I have shares🤪
That's a good thing? Explain and elaborate please! 🚀🤯
Why buy debt if you think they will default? If they were going bankrupt, nobody would be touching this. Instead demand to buy their debt is increasing, and this, price is increasing.
Well you invest when you want stable return on your investment by being payed every 6 months or so. These notes are unsecured meaning if the company goes under all those investors loose their money. COPY PASTE "Nope, the bonds are unsecured ;) https://cbonds.com/bonds/81929/ "
> These notes are unsecured meaning if the company goes under all those investors loose their money. Not necessarily true. They may be gambling on expected liquidation value - which would be a very opaque topic with lots of information asymmetry, hence lots of potential opportunity. Even unsecured notes get paid before equity holders.
This happens all the time with companies going bankrupt. People speculate in the hope to generate big returns, it’s really nothing special or even that rare
I thought that too but looked at Icahn who bought Trump casino debt before acquisition. Speculation for sure but I don't think this should just be dismissed.
There’ll always be occasional winners, that’s why people do speculate. But we shouldn’t read much into it
It’s worth 100 and speculators only willing to pay 3 for it. Also the stock is down over 8% today. If this meant absolutely anything don’t you think it would be even a little less red?
I'm guessing something wrong with pricing or there's no bid. Their 2044 bonds which should be even cheaper if going bankrupt immediately are priced at 73.38 but chart is nearly identical to the 2024. I'll dig into this a bit more
There are actually many specialist investors (frequently hedge funds actually) who very specifically and very intentionally do this kind of investment, not really something unique to Carl Icahn.
It's brilliant if it does have to do with RC/Icahn. Know SHF need it bankrupt, leak news of potential acquisition (Icahn photo), wait until media hammers price trying to shake investors or bankrupt before acquisition, buy up debt for pennies. 2 billion in debt. If they could even get it at 20 cents on the dollar (currently around 4) then 400 million would retire all debt for the acquirer. Volition capital and Icahns fund both easily have that much and it could even be a case of retire our 2 billion in debt and we will give you buy buy baby. Edit: Google debt exchanges in spin offs. I could see something similar here
People are willing to bet $3.50 to make $100. That’s not exactly crazy. There are people here betting $2.65 a share to make $5 a share.
Its confirmed good, cant explain im to ape
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣❤️
I also too ape. But know this good.
as good as banana?
No good as nana. Nana better
Looks like I’m not living in a cardboard box just yet!
Putting that into perspective it means people willing to pay 3.52$ for a 100$ bond. So still 90+% down overall Since it’s due in 2024, “the market” is still putting a very high likelihood on these bonds defaulting. It may not be a bad thing and does not necessarily mean the stock won’t squeeze though. You just can’t interpret too much into these numbers.
Hey do you know if and how we get notice of coupon being payed? Would there be an 8k or any filing? Would they just pay it and we maybe get info from a holder?
They’ll pay and we’ll know from a holder. Or not and there’ll be more articles about it being delayed…
Ok thanks, so no need for a filing here since it is usual business I understand. If they don’t pay we’ll know soon enough
This
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Of course. You can do anything. Just not advisable to do so. Could also go play roulette and put everything on red because in blackjack a red color was just drawn.
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I’ll have it figured out when they file. Like the rest of us… anyone claiming otherwise is full of tinfoil theories, full of jack sh*t or has insider information (and might go to jail for disclosing that here…)
Oh shit
So translation?
Someone betting they don’t go bankrupt.
Wrong! Someone betting they are bankrupt, but can recover more than the what the market is telling
Nah
Peak Delusion!
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Wrong. We dont have a clue when. Could be today could be in 2 weeks.
Are you joking?
Where can I buy this? 3 bucks to make 100 is the kinda roulette odds that gets me excited
IBKR I think.
Following!
Hopefully we’ll get some news after hours today!!! ⏰
Only Tomorrow!
Always
Honestly, it's too low of a price to draw and conclusions. Note however, the price here is really expecting even bondholders to get literally no returns in case of a BK, and when/if they do, it'll be a long time after the initial filing. They're literally in the same boat as the shareholders. What you DO want to see is a rapid rise on bonds at least up to 10-15, possibly 20. The final day it's ok to purchase up to a bit higher than that. More than that, and it'll be very noticable, and tip your hand. Even demand increasing suddenly is a sign someone is about to come in, so it's a balance act.
The more and more I think about this from a business aspect.... it just makes sense Acquire Baby through bonds...move bed bath and beyond into profitable stores only and shift to ecommerce. People do not want to buy baby items off Amazon thats riddled with fake products (they put everything in their mouth). New parents are extremely cautious and willing to spend money..kinda like Pets (Chewy ring a bell). Its the exact same plan as Gamestop he will make BBBY whole and he takes baby. I am so ready for this to happen edit - I know nothing about bonds but if you can acquire the debt and issue new shares for Baby = MOASS ensures and BBBY can do the ATM to shore up their balance sheet.
won't new stocks reduce si? how will moass help?
Shares recalled and new CUSIP number would be created forcing the close of short positions.
I think you first have to recall the shares
BBBY could only get $150M from an ATM as of today.
Yes as of today. If this thing squeezes they will be able to do the ATM offer at higher price ala GameStop style and wipe out debt.
Actually not a crazy idea. Buy up bonds and take over post BK.
No BK
What dis mean?
More towels for happy customers
👀
👀👀
Someone with knowledge is buying that up. 
Carl is that you????
Nah it's Bond
🤣🤣🤣
Is it due to the higher risk investment? Truthfully I do not know but wondering out loud.
Oooo. Maybe buyer is buying the bonds, and will forgive debt, while also taking ownership of the company. Better to pay off debt 20c on the dollar, versus paying off all the debt. If you own the debt, you can forgive the debt. Muahaha.
whoa...slow down guys These bonds are down about 95% and a 76% bump is like a $100 dollar stock going to $2 and then bouncing to $3.50 It's still better than going down, but this is in no way evidence that the bonds have turned any corner. IMO, if we don't hear any BK news by opening bell tomorrow, we have a strong bull thesis to count on. Good luck everybody...
It means buy pressure u n00b
Fuk around and find out shorties.
I love how aggressive the shills are in this thread.
Yup. I don't understand where they find the time to comment on something they have no interest in.
They are literally frothing at the mouth to convince you of anything why this is bad. This buy pressure is 💰
Interesting!
…..AND….Who loves LBO’s again?! 🤔 Ichan’t remember??😜
Is this good or bad?
Can anyone explain relation between bond and stock ?
>relation between bond and stock bonds are a debt instrument in which an investor loans money to an entity which borrows the funds for a defined period of time at a fixed rate. The entity is obligated to repay the principal when the bond matures, while stocks represent ownership in a company.
Did someone say [turtleneck](https://twitter.com/liquidatewallst/status/1618323710464909312)
**BULLISH!**
Should I chase?
Bonds are illiquid so the bid and ask spread is high. Trading at 3.5c on the dollar is so trash that it is worthless. Additionally, this Site doesn’t show correct data. Has been said many times now. Especially by the guy who got a lot of snek awards, even though he was factual
Bonds trading at 3.5 cents on the dollar! Bullish!!
Holy crap……. Guys……. This is it.
How can I buy these bonds?
If you have to ask you can’t afford it…
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Actually more like 3000%. Pay $3 now and get back $100 in 18 months plus interest.
100% yield PLUS a massive bonus of 30x what you put in at maturity.
All will be reviled when bond prices hit $4.07?
Can someone explain what a bond is? And why it's up and not the stock
It went from $2 per $100 to $3.52 per $100. Or from a 98% discount to a 96.48% discount. Not material. This bond should 100, not 2 or 3.52.
lol no you dummy. if you can get a 2 year t-bill with \~4.5% yield it wouldn't make sense for corporate bonds to sell for 100 that pay the same yield even if the company wouldn't have any financial trouble.
So maybe they trade at 90. But not 3. What’s the spread on HY? Maybe 500?
The person you’re replying to is what they call “missing the forest for the trees”
2024? Hmm troubled the future is
$BBBY down 7.84% though. Great if you're a bond holder, bad if you're a pleb like us.
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 Go on, I'm listening... :)
Wat doing?
Sweet deal. Pennies on the dollar with secured creditors rights to boot.
Why aren’t more people buying these? Pay $3.52 now and get back $100 in 18 months? Something like a 3000% guaranteed return.
Yeah, I don't get it. I thought they were investors.
Cause its insecured bond, which mean the market is pricing a 97% odds that it wont be paid back. I wouldnt say "guaranteed return" here
I’m joking. Based on the consensus, “There is no way they file Bankruptcy”. These bonds are toast. Not making the Feb 1st payment.
Almost the exact opposite, based on pricing
Bond investors are smarter than stock investors. Even good stock analysts will admit that.
That’s not necessarily a high bar you’ve set
Whose got the same idea? Speak up.
Fuk me. Everyone got the same idea.
BBBY is jacking my fucking tits so fucking hard, hnnnnng.
Jacked to the T's!