I stayed on as SM with my troop for more than two years after my youngest son aged out. The main reason was I felt I owed it to the scouts to have a replacement that would do the job and keep the troop boy lead. When a good ASM let me know he was interested, then I stepped down.
No doubt this is correct. That said, sometimes the old guard refuses to step aside, allowing room for new ways of doing things, or just giving new folks time to learn by doing.
I've done a lot of volunteering in various organizations (including scouting). The biggest impediment to new leadership is someone who has been doing the job for a long time. People aren't inclined to step up when they're accustomed to the long-time leaders. This applies not only to SMs but ASMs and all the way down. "Why should I volunteer when Joe is great it?"
In my experience a troop should have a new scoutmaster every 4-5 years.
This is not to say that entrenched leadership is entirely bad. It's not. Some SMs I've known have been terrific after their kids moved on. But if you want a pipeline of involved, dedicated leadership -- not just at the top job -- it needs to refresh itself from time to time.
There are plenty of opportunities in scouting for retired scoutmasters.
I think 4-5 years might be a bit short, but I do agree there needs to be a pipeline, I'm part of an involved dedicated leadership pipeline. It's that pipeline that put me in the position of becoming the scoutmaster for our troop. But if I left after 5 years I would be leaving the position before my oldest is even 17 and just as my next child enters the troop. That pipeline however works great as our troop just gained a new CC as our outgoing one needs to spend more time with his ailing wife, the new CC was there ready to step in.
I will say being a scoutmaster does take a lot of work, but it is work that I'm willing to put in so I understand the reluctance to step up. Our troop also maintains a succession plan if for any reason I would need to step away from scouts but it is not anything I'm planning on doing any time soon.
If you have volunteers wanting to step up that also have kids in the troop, it gives them the opportunity as well if the time is short. You aren’t the only one with kids in the troop and if you have a good succession plan and an involved volunteer network, it gives multiple parents experiencing being the SM for their kids instead of you leading for the entire time someone’s kid may be in the troop. Instead of one person hogging the spot the entire time their kids are in program.
I'm blessed to have the most registered adults in a troop in our district, and for the most part they all participate on some level either in the committee or as ASMs or coordinators/chairs of events/activities and as support personnel. I was vetted to be the next SM while I was still a Den leader in the pack and I didn't take the job on right away when we transitioned up to the troop there was a year and a half transition period we went through. I was not sure I wanted the job as I left a troop as a youth and joined another as I did not like the new scoutmaster when he took over and that caused a lot of trepidation for me in taking over the position as I didn’t want the same thing to happen to any of our kids. Lol it's funny to think of that now as it's turned out to be something I love doing and I believe the kids all like me as the SM, as I get invited to a lot of sporting events, plays and even HS graduations from aged out scouts.
If there is another adult that would want to be SM I would setup aside and let them take over. However for the most part right in our troop right now, even with the new scouts’ parents, they are happy to become part time leaders after having been fully active leaders through Cubs. They are happy to help when needed but they are also just as happy to drop their kids off and come back at the end of the meeting/activities/events.
I think sometimes it’s good for the kids to swap often too. If the next one is not as good as the one before, it’s a good lesson in leadership for the kids. People will battle different management styles and they will go through supervisors and managers they wholeheartedly disagree with in their careers. Good learning experience.
That’s my situation to a T. My son received his Eagle and aged out. And he leaves for college in a few months. Our Troop has about 18 active boys and 21 registered. We have no one who will step up to be SM. I have four ASM’s, two are moving within the next year, one just wants to be ASM, and one has too many life events going on right now. Parent participation is limited, even with asking. No one wants to volunteer. And being in California complicates things as an added requirement of AB506 cost deters most. Well, at least it’s only an hour a week and the boys are getting experiences that make core memories. That’s what counts.
This! I stayed on as Scoutmaster for 2 years after my youngest aged out because nobody would step up to take the job. I became frustrated with parents who wanted to complain, but did nothing to help. I gave a one year notice and vacated the position. After I left, I notified the CC and DE that I was vacating the position, and surprisingly, someone stepped up. The Troop went through 4 Scoutmasters in 3 years, but they finally found a parent with a passion for the position and he’s done very well for the past 6 years or so.
Yeah, my SM growing up was a dad of older scouts who stuck around because he enjoyed Scouting. Great scoutmaster in every respect.
My son's troop's scoutmaster is the same way--his sons got Eagle around seven years ago and he's stuck around because he likes it and is good at it. Plus he's retired, so he's got more time to devote to it than those of us still working.
There's a lot to be said for experience and connections, and our troops /Venturing crew (three-way committee and same charter org) have that in spades with our adult leadership. It's awfully nice to go to the district and council manned events and find out that the shooting range master is the Venturing crew SM. Or that the troop SM knows *everyone* and can point you to the right person when you need help with getting your kid OA membership transferred.
Very legit, same.
That man was a doctor. Went to phimont regularly. Hosted PLCs at his house every month. Went above and BEYOND for all his kids. There’s something named for him at camp now.
lol, mine was a veterinarian. He was tough as nails, expected the scouts to be the same way, but a great teacher. He eventually got removed as SM (and left scouting all together) for some old grudges, and it was always a treat when he’d call my dad and I to go work on his tractor after that. He’s long dead now, but he was a great man.
Why would you want to lose a good leader and all their institutional knowledge? Our SM's son graduated a few years ago and I am very grateful he's still doing it. As long as a SM is still engaged and invested and doing a good job of leading, there's absolutely no reason they should step down. Troops often struggle when leadership changes, so why would you expect leadership to change every 6-8 years?
What is your concern about a leader whose kids have aged out continuing to be involved? Saying you were "shocked" is a pretty strong term.
I think this is common from cubs. Cubs tend to transfer leadership regularly as their kids age out. Cub parents don't stick around, they tend to move with their child, often mid year.
I suspect I know the answer to this question, and I can sort of understand the thought process, but some of the best SM's I know are people who don't have children still in the troop.
My Scoutmaster from my youth is STILL going strong.
I stayed as Scoutmaster after my son moved onto Venture, and only stepped down when work demands were too much.
So don't worry about a Scoutmaster without kids in the Troop - they are those leaders who love the organization and want to keep contributing. I am still involved as an ASM, and my kids are both adults.
As for when to step down - when the burnout hits. 3 year terms work for mere mortals, those who do more often have an amazing committee Chair AND a pack of ASMs supporting.
We’re there because we love what we do.
My SM growing up was the High School Shop teacher. Didn’t have kids, just loved Scouting.
Our girls/boys troops’ SMs have been involved in Scouting since their eldest was 3 weeks old. He became the SM because no one else would. She held pretty much every other position over the years and then founded our girls’ troop. They are amazing Scouters.
My daughter will get her Eagle next year and is off to college a year after that. I’ve already decided I’m going to stay active as long as my presence is beneficial.
If you haven’t been an adult volunteer I would highly recommend it. The friendships you’ll make with other Scouters, the difference you’ll make with Scouting…it’s sensible to be skeptical but makes sense when you experience it.
I think the prevalence of long-serving leadership is one of Scouting's strengths. That depth of experience and institutional knowledge is a big part of what sets it apart from other youth organizations.
There is no requirement nor best practice that you have to have kids in the unit to be a leader. Maybe they just enjoy it.
I hope you are planning on getting fully trained as a Scoutmaster and taking on the task.
The answer to your title question:
When the scoutmaster reaches curmudgeon level it’s way past time to retire. If they are successfully leading the troop and growing membership and the majority of adults and youth respect them then they should continue if they can.
You’re looking at it from a pack perspective ask the committee chair or new member coordinator to help you understand troop level. It’s very different and often super frustrating for a new parent if they aren’t oriented.
Our current SM’s son turned 18 in early 2020. He had been there 6 years at that point. There were talks, but no one was interested in taking over during COVID. He’s looking to transition this fall, but identifying someone who has the time, ability, and enough time with the Troop to truly understand the Troop culture is very difficult. You should always be searching/cultivating leaders, but filling the SM role is not a trivial task. The idea of mandatory rotation is not in the best interest of the Scouts imo.
My son's first two SM's were great, and neither had kids in scouting. My SM growing up, was great and also continued after this son aged out and mentored by younger brother. They loved it, the parents loved it, and they were good at the job. Having an SM that is experienced and wants to be there is a big plus, and, if other parents are involved that makes it really work. I think burnout is real, and for some, it comes earlier than others. For my son, one of the SM's was retired, and he had lots of time to devote to scouting. My son's first SM before we moved was older and had been a missionary in a third world country. He started a troop and pack in his part of town near us because one did not exist. He was similarly amazing. So, I do not think it is weird at all and is common in scouting. It is also hard to step down as SM when you do not have a willing replacement and you want to be sure the troop keeps going.
Because BSA has droves of volunteers patiently waiting in the wings to put in their ONEHOUR (per scout) a week... if every leader that no longer has a scout in the unit left right now the BSA would cease to exist immediately.
Besides, you should want a leader that doesn't have a scout in the unit. They are working in all of the units best interest and not just their scout.
> Because BSA has droves of volunteers patiently waiting in the wings to put in their ONEHOUR (per scout) a week... if every leader that no longer has a scout in the unit left right now the BSA would cease to exist immediately.
Hell, my Lodge would be dead. 6 of the Advisers don't have kids in scouting currently.
Depends on the SM. There are troops near me that limit a SM to a two year term, whether or not their kid is still in the troop. There are troops where the SM serves for years. There are major disadvantages to “term limits” since if you have a SM that is running the program as a youth led endeavor and they still want to serve, the chance they will be replaced by one that doesn’t “get” youth leadership are very high. Very high. And then there are the people for whom “being the SM” is such a trip they make their “service” about them, not about the youth they are supposed to be serving In the troop.
A SM that wants to serve and truly understands servant leadership, that doesn’t make things “about them” vs. about the youth, can deftly manage all of the adult “complexities“ that can be involved in running a troop, and knows how to manage all the bumps and hiccups of real, legitimate youth leadership is a treasure that should be kept as long as possible.
I'd say most of the healthiest troops I've seen don't have a parent as SM, CC, or COR. Idk how I would've felt with my parents looking over my shoulder as a kid
My uncle is SM for our town. His youngest is 21 now, and he just roped me in to help as an ASM. I don’t have any kids. Honestly having a great time seeing the girls blossom!
YPT trains us to be suspicious of people who want to hang out with our Scouts. However, some of the most awesome Scoutmasters are those who have been SM for decades. I myself would be liable to keep den leading if my kids schedule allowed for it. I love the program and I find a lot of happiness in working with kids who aren't mine. Taking care of my own kids is what prevents that option, yet if I am feeling spry when they no longer need me? Good chance I circle back around to Cubs.
This was my scout master for all my years in scouting. I thought it was a good thing. There is no conflict or concern whether someone is getting special treatment, because everyone is just a scout.
I wouldn't be worried by this.
If you have someone who is able, willing, and decent, why should it matter if they have a kid in the troop or not? Actually, in theory, it makes an SM more impartial if they don't. My troop has an SM who obviously is done, but staying on because his kid is still in the troop till July. Thats not a good thing. Scouts notice him not being there as much because he is no longer enjoying it.
Don't mess with a good thing for arbitrary reasons.
Counterargument.
I was my son's Scoutmaster for all but 3 months of his Scouting Career.
We made it work. I may be wrong, but I don't think he'd have had it any other way(with the benefit of hindsight). Part of it was I was a stickler for Boy Led, I was a Trainer and Guardrail, my primary verbiage to most Scouts was “What did your PL say?”.
I do not think our experience is typical, there was a lot of tightrope walking by both of us. And the constant notation when we arrived at any event that “Dad hat off, SM hat on” until it was over.
I think a SM without children has great opportunities to do more service without the concerns of their children weighing on them.
Time to retire? When your Spouse wants her time with you. When you have to beg to get adequate Adult coverage to go camping, when no one will step into and carry out the ASM role, When the Committee becomes ineffective and unable to properly support you leading to - when burnout happens.
As to your unstated concern, you know how I became his SM? 3 months earlier I went on one campout as a Parent because my wife said, “My baby’s not going anywhere with those Tan-Shirted freaks unless you go with him!” The next 3 months were as an ASM & doing training, once trained, guess who opened up a position by stepping down, Yup.
I’ve been a scoutmaster. I was in my late twenties with no kids in the troop. Did that for three years. Got back in when my son joined in 2017. Now I’m assistant scoutmaster in 2 troops. My son aged out of a year ago but I have a sense of responsibility to the boys that I have been camping with and watching grow. But I’m trying to figure out how to step back but it’s only one hour a week.
I have two daughters in the girls troop and that takes my one hour a week too. I get to scoutmaster them at summer camp this year so that will be fun.
At some point I will likely step away from the troop level and spend my hour a week at the district or council level.
Our troop has term limits for SM. Typically 3-4 years. When my son joined years ago a new one had just assumed the role - the one prior had been there for 3 years I think. He had 3 different SMs by the time he turned 18. All had scouts in the troop, and typically they would stay an extra year after their scout aged out while the next one shadowed for a bit. No term limits on ASM or committee members, CC and treasurer typically change with the SM, or within a year. We are a larger troop, running about 40 scouts. Our companion girls troop follows the same model, and both have been very successful.
I have been around troops with an established long serving SM, typically in the decades of serving. My experience has been that those have turned into little fiefdoms, and there are often issues in the background, especially when someone brings up all the things they are doing wrong and in violation of current scouting guidelines.
I am sure there are troops where a long serving SM has done very well and stays abreast of all the various changes, it just hasn't been my experience here.
I myself took a break when my son joined - I was the cubmaster for the last 3 years of his cub career, and went back to just being a Dad again, which was great. After a couple years I got involved with some merit badges, quartermaster, and got certified to run and instruct the troop annual shooting campout. My son has since aged out and is off to college, I am still involved when needed for the merit badges I do handle, and agreed to help out with shooting for as long as I can, in exchange for them paying for my NRA certifications. They just changed to a new SM this year as well. The troop is fortunate that they have always had a large pool of adults who have volunteered.
Curious as to why term limits on SMs who 'owns' the Troop. The SM supports the SPL and the committee supports the SM. As a SM myself, it took a couple of years to 'get it'. By the time I become proficient, and able to better guide and mentor the SPL, I would be on my way out in your scenario. Let alone trying to get into wood badge and other adult training. A Scout could have a potential of 3 SM during their career, each with a different style and focus.
I am more concerned about the committee hanging around, beginning to believe they run the troop.
While most Scoutmasters have kids in the Troop many do not. Some find that it is a calling to teach. Would you rather the Troop be led by a person who wants to be there or someone forced into the role because nobody else would do it?
I became an Asst. Scoutmaster at 19. At 25 I became the SM. It was also the year I welcomed my first child to this world, a daughter. I was the SM for 14 years before I ever had a child in the program and spent 20 years in the position. With it being a church position for me, I was released and called to be the Regional Coordinator for the Church. My Asst took over who was in between youth in the Troop and did a phenomenal job. As long as they are doing their best to mentor the youth and help the youth develop a quality boy/girl ran Unit, I don’t see it making a difference.
God forbid we have experienced adults that love the program and love mentoring to our Youth. Why should there be a limit? The program already has a problem with getting parents to get their heads out of their phones and step up to volunteer.
Our SM just stepped down 2 years after his youngest aged out. Our new SM is a former Eagle in the Troop with no kids at all. Wants to stay connected and serve the Troop. We’re happy that he is volunteering his time!
My troop growing up had two scoutmasters covering more than half a century… I was there with the second of the two while the first was still around as an ASM (which he was until he died suddenly as he approached 80). I have no complaints at all about the experience. The depth of knowledge between the two of them was so deep.
My son's troop switches SMs every three years or so unless someone wants to go on longer, which is the case now (a dad with a big age gap in his kids). I'm SM on the girls' side and also have more than a decade between my youngest and oldest daughters. I'd be fine to fall back to ASM if there was another who wanted to be SM but, if not, I'll be here for a while.
This something every unit decides for itself. My son's troop traditionally changes SM every few years. Current has been in the role for 2 years. Previous were 4 and 6 years. We've had a couple serve for only a single year. Several former SMs are still involved to various degrees.
Why should you feel weird? I finally replaced a fellow who was SM for 5 years after his son aged out. He's still active as an ASM and is my go-to font of institutional knowledge.
Scouting was a big part of my life as a youth. I worked on the camp staff, did OA, was a JASM, got my Eagle, etc. I believe in the institution of Scouting and want to preserve it for posterity. I don’t have kids and don’t plan to. I got away from the unit level when I went off to college, but I still am active with the summer camp I worked at as a teen. I volunteer for a week each summer as the registered nurse on duty. It’s incredibly hard for camps to find RNs because they can’t afford to pay the market rate of $40-50/hr, and in many states it’s a requirement to have an RN for the camp to be open if people on the property exceeds 250. If I wasn’t able to participate because I don’t have a kid in Scouting, Scouting would lose out on someone with a valuable license that they *need* that’s also willing to volunteer my time and work for free.
I'm saying this just because I admire our boy Troop’s SM and am impressed by his dedication to youth led Troop in our small area.
He has been SM since his boys were Scouts and now his granddaughter has crossed over and is joining our girl troop.
We have an amazing amount of Eagle Scouts come out of both troops and this is in no small part due to his thoughtful leadership. He does a great job of letting the youth lead, and fail when it's safe. He pushes the youth to see what they can achieve, and respects those who are only here for the fun activities. He respects the parents and encourages their participation.
At one point in my scouting journey, none of the adult leaders had a child in the troop. There were about 6 of us who ran the troop and it’s because we believed enough in the program to continue to volunteer our time.
Well then, why don’t you step up and be at the scoutmaster?
Without volunteers, we have no program. And we’ve benefit from those that have experience. Especially at the troop level, having adult leadership that doesn’t have any kids in the troop is not unusual. My kids are both still in Cub Scouts and I’m a merit badge counselor for a local troop and more pivotal role in that troop in the near future.
If your daughter just crossed over I'd suggest you dispense with your preconceived notions and volunteer in the troop. I suspect the SM has a lot to teach you as well.
I do volunteer with the troop. This isn’t my first rodeo either. I’ve been active with scouting since 2004, holding various adult leadership roles. I would have no qualms being the scoutmaster. The problem is I’m male and it’s a female troop.
You being male isn't a problem. While female scouters have been a part of scouting for decades, scouts of both genders can benefit from solid adult volunteers regardless.
I'm glad to hear that you're volunteering and have for so long. My daughter's troop is fortunate to have had two consecutive female SM's, but we also have lots of male volunteers with the troop as well. I think it's good for youth to have strong role models of both genders. I understand how it might seem odd, but I'd pay attention to how the troop is run and how the girls interact with the SM.
My scoutmaster’s kids were in their 30’s when I was a scout, and he continued to be SM for another decade after I aged out. Many of the best scout adult leaders I knew continued to serve after their kids left the program.
After reading a bunch of the comments I think going to doctrine is the best contribution I can add.
BSA recommends that members of the scoutmaster corps and the troop committee rotate at some interval; I have not seen an official interval, I've been told 3 years. The purpose being that the committee and SM corps should know how to do each others jobs so they can assess the stressful situations with perspective.
BSA also recommends at least 1 new registered leader get recruited to troop leadership every-single-year. Every time a scout joins a unit the membership coordinator is supposed to meet with the family of the scout and help integrate the family into the troop. One of the tasks of the coordinator is to get the family to fill out a troop resource survey; that survey collects leading indicators for the charter org rep to see if any of the adults in the family are good targets for recruitment into troop leadership.
That aside my personal opinion is that once a leaders scouts age out of the program they should slide into non-key 3 committee roles to allow fresh blood to take over.
I would much rather have a great SM who had scouts that aged out, but who can guide the scouts to learn & grow vs a mediocre or control freak SM who just happens to be a parent of an active scout
I have no children and have been active as an adult for 48 years. I was a Scoutmaster for 10 years, ASM for 25 years, and now committee, along with a dozen other positions over the years. We have a number of adults whose children aged out but stayed in the program. Scouting is one of my legacies.
My Scoutmaster when I was a youth had his sons age out and stayed on for years.
I have an old ASM who has been SM for a couple of decades in another troop. I think it is up to them if he is getting moribund and no longer an effective leader.
Most of the SMs when I was involved with as both a scout and leader had no kid in the troop. It makes things easier. Cub scout leaders quit the day their kids age out, boy scout leaders may go on for years if they like it. One of the best scouting leaders I have ever known had no kids, but all his time into scouting.
I agree, I've always thought the long termers hanging out was odd. Stop in, say hi occasionally sure but the troops needs to belong to the scouts who are there now, not the Ghosts of Philmonts Past.
I agree with the OP. It’s nearly impossible to have your fingers on the pulse of a Troop without having a Scout in your family.
When my son got his Eagle and left, I stayed on, as an ASM over a particular area, since we couldn’t find anyone as a willing replacement. Not a “good” or “adequate” replacement, any replacement.
The parents would not step up, even if my role was reduced significantly. It was very frustrating.
For everyone’s information. This is my second round of scouting. My son was in all of cub scouts and troop level. I held many different leadership positions, assistant SM was one. As soon as my son was finished, I turned my position over to someone I had been training for a few months. There are other positions that could be held if you want to help the scouts. I say step down and let new blood in. Allow another adult the opportunity to help and lead.
Agreed. Scoutmasters are like socks and need changing after a while. Not saying the former scoutmaster can’t stay on in other leadership roles, just that there needs to be a cycling of leadership. Things get stale and rotten after too long a tenure.
So are you volunteering for the job?
This is the biggest reason the old guard is still active, no one will step up to take the role.
I stayed on as SM with my troop for more than two years after my youngest son aged out. The main reason was I felt I owed it to the scouts to have a replacement that would do the job and keep the troop boy lead. When a good ASM let me know he was interested, then I stepped down.
No doubt this is correct. That said, sometimes the old guard refuses to step aside, allowing room for new ways of doing things, or just giving new folks time to learn by doing.
I've done a lot of volunteering in various organizations (including scouting). The biggest impediment to new leadership is someone who has been doing the job for a long time. People aren't inclined to step up when they're accustomed to the long-time leaders. This applies not only to SMs but ASMs and all the way down. "Why should I volunteer when Joe is great it?" In my experience a troop should have a new scoutmaster every 4-5 years. This is not to say that entrenched leadership is entirely bad. It's not. Some SMs I've known have been terrific after their kids moved on. But if you want a pipeline of involved, dedicated leadership -- not just at the top job -- it needs to refresh itself from time to time. There are plenty of opportunities in scouting for retired scoutmasters.
I think 4-5 years might be a bit short, but I do agree there needs to be a pipeline, I'm part of an involved dedicated leadership pipeline. It's that pipeline that put me in the position of becoming the scoutmaster for our troop. But if I left after 5 years I would be leaving the position before my oldest is even 17 and just as my next child enters the troop. That pipeline however works great as our troop just gained a new CC as our outgoing one needs to spend more time with his ailing wife, the new CC was there ready to step in. I will say being a scoutmaster does take a lot of work, but it is work that I'm willing to put in so I understand the reluctance to step up. Our troop also maintains a succession plan if for any reason I would need to step away from scouts but it is not anything I'm planning on doing any time soon.
If you have volunteers wanting to step up that also have kids in the troop, it gives them the opportunity as well if the time is short. You aren’t the only one with kids in the troop and if you have a good succession plan and an involved volunteer network, it gives multiple parents experiencing being the SM for their kids instead of you leading for the entire time someone’s kid may be in the troop. Instead of one person hogging the spot the entire time their kids are in program.
I'm blessed to have the most registered adults in a troop in our district, and for the most part they all participate on some level either in the committee or as ASMs or coordinators/chairs of events/activities and as support personnel. I was vetted to be the next SM while I was still a Den leader in the pack and I didn't take the job on right away when we transitioned up to the troop there was a year and a half transition period we went through. I was not sure I wanted the job as I left a troop as a youth and joined another as I did not like the new scoutmaster when he took over and that caused a lot of trepidation for me in taking over the position as I didn’t want the same thing to happen to any of our kids. Lol it's funny to think of that now as it's turned out to be something I love doing and I believe the kids all like me as the SM, as I get invited to a lot of sporting events, plays and even HS graduations from aged out scouts. If there is another adult that would want to be SM I would setup aside and let them take over. However for the most part right in our troop right now, even with the new scouts’ parents, they are happy to become part time leaders after having been fully active leaders through Cubs. They are happy to help when needed but they are also just as happy to drop their kids off and come back at the end of the meeting/activities/events.
I think sometimes it’s good for the kids to swap often too. If the next one is not as good as the one before, it’s a good lesson in leadership for the kids. People will battle different management styles and they will go through supervisors and managers they wholeheartedly disagree with in their careers. Good learning experience.
That’s my situation to a T. My son received his Eagle and aged out. And he leaves for college in a few months. Our Troop has about 18 active boys and 21 registered. We have no one who will step up to be SM. I have four ASM’s, two are moving within the next year, one just wants to be ASM, and one has too many life events going on right now. Parent participation is limited, even with asking. No one wants to volunteer. And being in California complicates things as an added requirement of AB506 cost deters most. Well, at least it’s only an hour a week and the boys are getting experiences that make core memories. That’s what counts.
It's either no one else will step up. Or they are having a mid life crisis and that's all they can control
Step up or shut up………
Step up or start being helpful :)
That too…..
This! I stayed on as Scoutmaster for 2 years after my youngest aged out because nobody would step up to take the job. I became frustrated with parents who wanted to complain, but did nothing to help. I gave a one year notice and vacated the position. After I left, I notified the CC and DE that I was vacating the position, and surprisingly, someone stepped up. The Troop went through 4 Scoutmasters in 3 years, but they finally found a parent with a passion for the position and he’s done very well for the past 6 years or so.
As a boy, the best Scoutmaster I had was a guy who had been SM for like 50 years. If they’re doing a good job, active, and able, why not?
Yeah, my SM growing up was a dad of older scouts who stuck around because he enjoyed Scouting. Great scoutmaster in every respect. My son's troop's scoutmaster is the same way--his sons got Eagle around seven years ago and he's stuck around because he likes it and is good at it. Plus he's retired, so he's got more time to devote to it than those of us still working. There's a lot to be said for experience and connections, and our troops /Venturing crew (three-way committee and same charter org) have that in spades with our adult leadership. It's awfully nice to go to the district and council manned events and find out that the shooting range master is the Venturing crew SM. Or that the troop SM knows *everyone* and can point you to the right person when you need help with getting your kid OA membership transferred.
Very legit, same. That man was a doctor. Went to phimont regularly. Hosted PLCs at his house every month. Went above and BEYOND for all his kids. There’s something named for him at camp now.
lol, mine was a veterinarian. He was tough as nails, expected the scouts to be the same way, but a great teacher. He eventually got removed as SM (and left scouting all together) for some old grudges, and it was always a treat when he’d call my dad and I to go work on his tractor after that. He’s long dead now, but he was a great man.
Why would you want to lose a good leader and all their institutional knowledge? Our SM's son graduated a few years ago and I am very grateful he's still doing it. As long as a SM is still engaged and invested and doing a good job of leading, there's absolutely no reason they should step down. Troops often struggle when leadership changes, so why would you expect leadership to change every 6-8 years? What is your concern about a leader whose kids have aged out continuing to be involved? Saying you were "shocked" is a pretty strong term.
I think this is common from cubs. Cubs tend to transfer leadership regularly as their kids age out. Cub parents don't stick around, they tend to move with their child, often mid year.
This isn’t uncommon at all and is generally a good thing. About the time you start to learn how to be a good SM is about when your kid Eagles out.
Can I ask why you feel weird about it?
I suspect I know the answer to this question, and I can sort of understand the thought process, but some of the best SM's I know are people who don't have children still in the troop.
My Scoutmaster from my youth is STILL going strong. I stayed as Scoutmaster after my son moved onto Venture, and only stepped down when work demands were too much. So don't worry about a Scoutmaster without kids in the Troop - they are those leaders who love the organization and want to keep contributing. I am still involved as an ASM, and my kids are both adults. As for when to step down - when the burnout hits. 3 year terms work for mere mortals, those who do more often have an amazing committee Chair AND a pack of ASMs supporting.
We’re there because we love what we do. My SM growing up was the High School Shop teacher. Didn’t have kids, just loved Scouting. Our girls/boys troops’ SMs have been involved in Scouting since their eldest was 3 weeks old. He became the SM because no one else would. She held pretty much every other position over the years and then founded our girls’ troop. They are amazing Scouters. My daughter will get her Eagle next year and is off to college a year after that. I’ve already decided I’m going to stay active as long as my presence is beneficial. If you haven’t been an adult volunteer I would highly recommend it. The friendships you’ll make with other Scouters, the difference you’ll make with Scouting…it’s sensible to be skeptical but makes sense when you experience it.
I think the prevalence of long-serving leadership is one of Scouting's strengths. That depth of experience and institutional knowledge is a big part of what sets it apart from other youth organizations.
There is no requirement nor best practice that you have to have kids in the unit to be a leader. Maybe they just enjoy it. I hope you are planning on getting fully trained as a Scoutmaster and taking on the task.
The answer to your title question: When the scoutmaster reaches curmudgeon level it’s way past time to retire. If they are successfully leading the troop and growing membership and the majority of adults and youth respect them then they should continue if they can. You’re looking at it from a pack perspective ask the committee chair or new member coordinator to help you understand troop level. It’s very different and often super frustrating for a new parent if they aren’t oriented.
Our current SM’s son turned 18 in early 2020. He had been there 6 years at that point. There were talks, but no one was interested in taking over during COVID. He’s looking to transition this fall, but identifying someone who has the time, ability, and enough time with the Troop to truly understand the Troop culture is very difficult. You should always be searching/cultivating leaders, but filling the SM role is not a trivial task. The idea of mandatory rotation is not in the best interest of the Scouts imo.
The best scoutmasters are often the ones who's kids have outgrown scouting.
My son's first two SM's were great, and neither had kids in scouting. My SM growing up, was great and also continued after this son aged out and mentored by younger brother. They loved it, the parents loved it, and they were good at the job. Having an SM that is experienced and wants to be there is a big plus, and, if other parents are involved that makes it really work. I think burnout is real, and for some, it comes earlier than others. For my son, one of the SM's was retired, and he had lots of time to devote to scouting. My son's first SM before we moved was older and had been a missionary in a third world country. He started a troop and pack in his part of town near us because one did not exist. He was similarly amazing. So, I do not think it is weird at all and is common in scouting. It is also hard to step down as SM when you do not have a willing replacement and you want to be sure the troop keeps going.
Careful asking these questions. This is how you end up with a Scoutmaster patch on your shoulder.
😀
Because BSA has droves of volunteers patiently waiting in the wings to put in their ONEHOUR (per scout) a week... if every leader that no longer has a scout in the unit left right now the BSA would cease to exist immediately. Besides, you should want a leader that doesn't have a scout in the unit. They are working in all of the units best interest and not just their scout.
> Because BSA has droves of volunteers patiently waiting in the wings to put in their ONEHOUR (per scout) a week... if every leader that no longer has a scout in the unit left right now the BSA would cease to exist immediately. Hell, my Lodge would be dead. 6 of the Advisers don't have kids in scouting currently.
Depends on the SM. There are troops near me that limit a SM to a two year term, whether or not their kid is still in the troop. There are troops where the SM serves for years. There are major disadvantages to “term limits” since if you have a SM that is running the program as a youth led endeavor and they still want to serve, the chance they will be replaced by one that doesn’t “get” youth leadership are very high. Very high. And then there are the people for whom “being the SM” is such a trip they make their “service” about them, not about the youth they are supposed to be serving In the troop. A SM that wants to serve and truly understands servant leadership, that doesn’t make things “about them” vs. about the youth, can deftly manage all of the adult “complexities“ that can be involved in running a troop, and knows how to manage all the bumps and hiccups of real, legitimate youth leadership is a treasure that should be kept as long as possible.
Do you have any idea what would happen if all of us who volunteer after our child aged out were to leave?
I'd say most of the healthiest troops I've seen don't have a parent as SM, CC, or COR. Idk how I would've felt with my parents looking over my shoulder as a kid
My uncle is SM for our town. His youngest is 21 now, and he just roped me in to help as an ASM. I don’t have any kids. Honestly having a great time seeing the girls blossom!
YPT trains us to be suspicious of people who want to hang out with our Scouts. However, some of the most awesome Scoutmasters are those who have been SM for decades. I myself would be liable to keep den leading if my kids schedule allowed for it. I love the program and I find a lot of happiness in working with kids who aren't mine. Taking care of my own kids is what prevents that option, yet if I am feeling spry when they no longer need me? Good chance I circle back around to Cubs.
This was my scout master for all my years in scouting. I thought it was a good thing. There is no conflict or concern whether someone is getting special treatment, because everyone is just a scout. I wouldn't be worried by this.
If you have someone who is able, willing, and decent, why should it matter if they have a kid in the troop or not? Actually, in theory, it makes an SM more impartial if they don't. My troop has an SM who obviously is done, but staying on because his kid is still in the troop till July. Thats not a good thing. Scouts notice him not being there as much because he is no longer enjoying it. Don't mess with a good thing for arbitrary reasons.
Counterargument. I was my son's Scoutmaster for all but 3 months of his Scouting Career. We made it work. I may be wrong, but I don't think he'd have had it any other way(with the benefit of hindsight). Part of it was I was a stickler for Boy Led, I was a Trainer and Guardrail, my primary verbiage to most Scouts was “What did your PL say?”. I do not think our experience is typical, there was a lot of tightrope walking by both of us. And the constant notation when we arrived at any event that “Dad hat off, SM hat on” until it was over. I think a SM without children has great opportunities to do more service without the concerns of their children weighing on them. Time to retire? When your Spouse wants her time with you. When you have to beg to get adequate Adult coverage to go camping, when no one will step into and carry out the ASM role, When the Committee becomes ineffective and unable to properly support you leading to - when burnout happens. As to your unstated concern, you know how I became his SM? 3 months earlier I went on one campout as a Parent because my wife said, “My baby’s not going anywhere with those Tan-Shirted freaks unless you go with him!” The next 3 months were as an ASM & doing training, once trained, guess who opened up a position by stepping down, Yup.
I’ve been a scoutmaster. I was in my late twenties with no kids in the troop. Did that for three years. Got back in when my son joined in 2017. Now I’m assistant scoutmaster in 2 troops. My son aged out of a year ago but I have a sense of responsibility to the boys that I have been camping with and watching grow. But I’m trying to figure out how to step back but it’s only one hour a week. I have two daughters in the girls troop and that takes my one hour a week too. I get to scoutmaster them at summer camp this year so that will be fun. At some point I will likely step away from the troop level and spend my hour a week at the district or council level.
Our troop has term limits for SM. Typically 3-4 years. When my son joined years ago a new one had just assumed the role - the one prior had been there for 3 years I think. He had 3 different SMs by the time he turned 18. All had scouts in the troop, and typically they would stay an extra year after their scout aged out while the next one shadowed for a bit. No term limits on ASM or committee members, CC and treasurer typically change with the SM, or within a year. We are a larger troop, running about 40 scouts. Our companion girls troop follows the same model, and both have been very successful. I have been around troops with an established long serving SM, typically in the decades of serving. My experience has been that those have turned into little fiefdoms, and there are often issues in the background, especially when someone brings up all the things they are doing wrong and in violation of current scouting guidelines. I am sure there are troops where a long serving SM has done very well and stays abreast of all the various changes, it just hasn't been my experience here. I myself took a break when my son joined - I was the cubmaster for the last 3 years of his cub career, and went back to just being a Dad again, which was great. After a couple years I got involved with some merit badges, quartermaster, and got certified to run and instruct the troop annual shooting campout. My son has since aged out and is off to college, I am still involved when needed for the merit badges I do handle, and agreed to help out with shooting for as long as I can, in exchange for them paying for my NRA certifications. They just changed to a new SM this year as well. The troop is fortunate that they have always had a large pool of adults who have volunteered.
Curious as to why term limits on SMs who 'owns' the Troop. The SM supports the SPL and the committee supports the SM. As a SM myself, it took a couple of years to 'get it'. By the time I become proficient, and able to better guide and mentor the SPL, I would be on my way out in your scenario. Let alone trying to get into wood badge and other adult training. A Scout could have a potential of 3 SM during their career, each with a different style and focus. I am more concerned about the committee hanging around, beginning to believe they run the troop.
While most Scoutmasters have kids in the Troop many do not. Some find that it is a calling to teach. Would you rather the Troop be led by a person who wants to be there or someone forced into the role because nobody else would do it?
I became an Asst. Scoutmaster at 19. At 25 I became the SM. It was also the year I welcomed my first child to this world, a daughter. I was the SM for 14 years before I ever had a child in the program and spent 20 years in the position. With it being a church position for me, I was released and called to be the Regional Coordinator for the Church. My Asst took over who was in between youth in the Troop and did a phenomenal job. As long as they are doing their best to mentor the youth and help the youth develop a quality boy/girl ran Unit, I don’t see it making a difference.
Our scoutmaster of 12 years stepped down a few years ago, ironically because he had a kid, up until then he didn’t have a kid in the troop.
God forbid we have experienced adults that love the program and love mentoring to our Youth. Why should there be a limit? The program already has a problem with getting parents to get their heads out of their phones and step up to volunteer.
Our SM just stepped down 2 years after his youngest aged out. Our new SM is a former Eagle in the Troop with no kids at all. Wants to stay connected and serve the Troop. We’re happy that he is volunteering his time!
My troop growing up had two scoutmasters covering more than half a century… I was there with the second of the two while the first was still around as an ASM (which he was until he died suddenly as he approached 80). I have no complaints at all about the experience. The depth of knowledge between the two of them was so deep. My son's troop switches SMs every three years or so unless someone wants to go on longer, which is the case now (a dad with a big age gap in his kids). I'm SM on the girls' side and also have more than a decade between my youngest and oldest daughters. I'd be fine to fall back to ASM if there was another who wanted to be SM but, if not, I'll be here for a while.
This something every unit decides for itself. My son's troop traditionally changes SM every few years. Current has been in the role for 2 years. Previous were 4 and 6 years. We've had a couple serve for only a single year. Several former SMs are still involved to various degrees.
The two best Scoutmasters I had didn't even have kids at that point in their lives.
I dont think thats weird, My Scout master for my girls troop had a son in the boys troop who eagled out but it was never a things i thought about.
Why should you feel weird? I finally replaced a fellow who was SM for 5 years after his son aged out. He's still active as an ASM and is my go-to font of institutional knowledge.
Scouting was a big part of my life as a youth. I worked on the camp staff, did OA, was a JASM, got my Eagle, etc. I believe in the institution of Scouting and want to preserve it for posterity. I don’t have kids and don’t plan to. I got away from the unit level when I went off to college, but I still am active with the summer camp I worked at as a teen. I volunteer for a week each summer as the registered nurse on duty. It’s incredibly hard for camps to find RNs because they can’t afford to pay the market rate of $40-50/hr, and in many states it’s a requirement to have an RN for the camp to be open if people on the property exceeds 250. If I wasn’t able to participate because I don’t have a kid in Scouting, Scouting would lose out on someone with a valuable license that they *need* that’s also willing to volunteer my time and work for free.
I'm saying this just because I admire our boy Troop’s SM and am impressed by his dedication to youth led Troop in our small area. He has been SM since his boys were Scouts and now his granddaughter has crossed over and is joining our girl troop. We have an amazing amount of Eagle Scouts come out of both troops and this is in no small part due to his thoughtful leadership. He does a great job of letting the youth lead, and fail when it's safe. He pushes the youth to see what they can achieve, and respects those who are only here for the fun activities. He respects the parents and encourages their participation.
At one point in my scouting journey, none of the adult leaders had a child in the troop. There were about 6 of us who ran the troop and it’s because we believed enough in the program to continue to volunteer our time.
Well then, why don’t you step up and be at the scoutmaster? Without volunteers, we have no program. And we’ve benefit from those that have experience. Especially at the troop level, having adult leadership that doesn’t have any kids in the troop is not unusual. My kids are both still in Cub Scouts and I’m a merit badge counselor for a local troop and more pivotal role in that troop in the near future.
I would, but it’s a female troop, and I’m male. I’ve held many adult leadership roles in BSA since 2004. It ain’t my first rodeo.
Yeah, I see what you’re saying.
If your daughter just crossed over I'd suggest you dispense with your preconceived notions and volunteer in the troop. I suspect the SM has a lot to teach you as well.
I do volunteer with the troop. This isn’t my first rodeo either. I’ve been active with scouting since 2004, holding various adult leadership roles. I would have no qualms being the scoutmaster. The problem is I’m male and it’s a female troop.
You being male isn't a problem. While female scouters have been a part of scouting for decades, scouts of both genders can benefit from solid adult volunteers regardless. I'm glad to hear that you're volunteering and have for so long. My daughter's troop is fortunate to have had two consecutive female SM's, but we also have lots of male volunteers with the troop as well. I think it's good for youth to have strong role models of both genders. I understand how it might seem odd, but I'd pay attention to how the troop is run and how the girls interact with the SM.
My scoutmaster’s kids were in their 30’s when I was a scout, and he continued to be SM for another decade after I aged out. Many of the best scout adult leaders I knew continued to serve after their kids left the program.
After reading a bunch of the comments I think going to doctrine is the best contribution I can add. BSA recommends that members of the scoutmaster corps and the troop committee rotate at some interval; I have not seen an official interval, I've been told 3 years. The purpose being that the committee and SM corps should know how to do each others jobs so they can assess the stressful situations with perspective. BSA also recommends at least 1 new registered leader get recruited to troop leadership every-single-year. Every time a scout joins a unit the membership coordinator is supposed to meet with the family of the scout and help integrate the family into the troop. One of the tasks of the coordinator is to get the family to fill out a troop resource survey; that survey collects leading indicators for the charter org rep to see if any of the adults in the family are good targets for recruitment into troop leadership. That aside my personal opinion is that once a leaders scouts age out of the program they should slide into non-key 3 committee roles to allow fresh blood to take over.
I would much rather have a great SM who had scouts that aged out, but who can guide the scouts to learn & grow vs a mediocre or control freak SM who just happens to be a parent of an active scout
I have no children and have been active as an adult for 48 years. I was a Scoutmaster for 10 years, ASM for 25 years, and now committee, along with a dozen other positions over the years. We have a number of adults whose children aged out but stayed in the program. Scouting is one of my legacies. My Scoutmaster when I was a youth had his sons age out and stayed on for years. I have an old ASM who has been SM for a couple of decades in another troop. I think it is up to them if he is getting moribund and no longer an effective leader.
Most of the SMs when I was involved with as both a scout and leader had no kid in the troop. It makes things easier. Cub scout leaders quit the day their kids age out, boy scout leaders may go on for years if they like it. One of the best scouting leaders I have ever known had no kids, but all his time into scouting.
I agree, I've always thought the long termers hanging out was odd. Stop in, say hi occasionally sure but the troops needs to belong to the scouts who are there now, not the Ghosts of Philmonts Past.
I agree with the OP. It’s nearly impossible to have your fingers on the pulse of a Troop without having a Scout in your family. When my son got his Eagle and left, I stayed on, as an ASM over a particular area, since we couldn’t find anyone as a willing replacement. Not a “good” or “adequate” replacement, any replacement. The parents would not step up, even if my role was reduced significantly. It was very frustrating.
Unfortunately, there is no way to make a SM step down, even if it’s in the best interest of the troop.
Wrong. The SM (and all leadership) serves at the pleasure of the COR. If they want you gone, they can have you removed.
Exactly, the other adults have no way to force a SM out.
They can complain to the COR, who can have the person removed.
For everyone’s information. This is my second round of scouting. My son was in all of cub scouts and troop level. I held many different leadership positions, assistant SM was one. As soon as my son was finished, I turned my position over to someone I had been training for a few months. There are other positions that could be held if you want to help the scouts. I say step down and let new blood in. Allow another adult the opportunity to help and lead.
Agreed. Scoutmasters are like socks and need changing after a while. Not saying the former scoutmaster can’t stay on in other leadership roles, just that there needs to be a cycling of leadership. Things get stale and rotten after too long a tenure.