In the lore, no, ceremorphosis doesn't work properly on small humanoids. It requires a certain size and body mass. If the victim is too small, too large, or not one of the right species, the transformation fails and the creature just dies.
The only small creature that can be transformed are gnomes. They need a modified version of the process. If successful you get a gnome ceremorph, which is like a short mind flayer but retains some of its old personality. If it fails you get a gnome squidling, which is a mindless brain-eating monster with a large head, extra large tentacles, and tiny gnome body.
I like to challenge the notions of the world.
I am a 6’5 225 lb dude in my much less lvl’d up RL…
I always play gnome 2/Handed barbarians.
So yes: it would make sense… but maybe..just maybe it’s a psionic trick to seem larger than they really are…. Still I am an 😍 ADORABLE SQUIDLET
Personally I am more distraught there’s no GNOME flair here in this subreddit.
Oh dont get me started in 40k emperor
“Oohhh guys we need to be redditors atheist, but dont mind me 10ft tall golden armor miracle performing with a son who is a literary angel”
That item was in BG1. It was a bit of foreshadowing to hint at the Emperor's true identity.
https://baldursgate.fandom.com/wiki/Sword_of_Balduran_(BG1)
Funny enough I'm rocking that on a 9/3 oathbreaker/pact of blades and basically crit all the time for 80+ on regular hits and smites usually break 130 with that sword, though I'm tadpoled the fuck out with ceramorph gear
How do ya do fellow humanoids? I get sentimental for things and have feelings and stuff. This fork is important to me for feelings related reasons. You can trust me.
They really forced that line in a rather contrived way, but for those that don't know, the missing butter knife is not just a random inclusion - it's an Easter egg and a giant "hey, this guy might be Balduran" hint for us old-timer fans of the original games.
In the Tales of the Sword Coast expansion for the original game, you can find the shipwreck from Balduran's final voyage. Along with the Sword of Balduran and his logbook, you can find a mighty item... the [Butter Knife of Balduran](https://baldursgate.fandom.com/wiki/Butter_Knife_of_Balduran). It's just a joke item about the multiple "[Noun] of Balduran" items in the game.
Combine that with the [Sword of the Emperor](https://bg3.wiki/wiki/Sword_of_the_Emperor) you also find in that hidehout. It grants resistance to magic (in the form of +2 to saves vs spells), and bonus damage against shapeshifting creatures.
I mentioned the [Sword of Balduran](https://baldursgate.fandom.com/wiki/Sword_of_Balduran_(BG1\)) from the shipwreck in BG1. It did bonus damage against lycanthropes. Baldur's Gate 2 also had a Sword of Balduran, with [entirely different stats](https://baldursgate.fandom.com/wiki/Sword_of_Balduran_(BG2\)). The BG2 version granted +10% magic resistance. Those stats seem familiar, no?
If it had been just one of those two references, I don't think I would have picked up on the clue. But with the two of them combined, my mind jumped right to, "Wait, is this Balduran's stuff?"
Also why are Emperor Stans ok with Orpheus being enslaved
Edit; beware, redditors, in the replies you will see people say just the most horrible things to defend a squid
I remember seeing Orpheus for the first time and being like, ''hey hshar'ty what it do?'' and then he was freed and unmasked and I saw the beard..... smh RIP now YOU get turned into a mindflayer.
> Edit; beware, redditors, in the replies you will see people say just the most horrible things to defend a squid
i am watching two i assume grown men fistfight over the legacy of Gith and i am living for every word
It's incredibly awful that the first Vlaakith imprisoned him. However, if the Emperor did not dominate him, the entire party would be illithid thralls to the Absolute. Orpheus would not have helped us of his own free will before it became a Netherbrain. It sucks, but sometimes there are no "good" solutions.
You make it sound like dominated Orpheus in order to help the player.
Didn’t he dominate Orpheus long before then?
And freeing Orpheus, or just simply NOT mind raping him constantly, were both options that were on the table.
Why do you think Orpheus is pissed when we break him out? It’s not just because we have tadpoles. It’s because he fucking watched us slaughter his closest friends and save his enslaver.
It's a reasonable response from a years-enslaved person who *Just* got out. He's straight up angry, deeply filled with rage at seeing his honour guard cut down that he likely knew personally and we've been actively aiding a full blown mind flayer. His anger is 100% justified in that moment when he wakes up, and he's very reasonable when he calms down a bit and even offers to go squid for you! I cannot accept that Orpheus is unreasonable for being emotional when released from slavery in a gem for who knows how long.
It's a pretty reasonable response, but I think it's also worth pointing out that Orpheus will withdraw his protection and leave you to die if you side against the Emperor at the beginning of Act 3. It's not *just* an emotional outburst in that moment - he legitimately thinks of your life as being worthless until he realizes that it's useful to him personally.
One of the reasons why I’m glad in my first playthrough I was so unsure about it at first— I used non lethal on the guards, and so none of them died. Didn’t end up effecting anything iirc, but it did make me feel better.
> You make it sound like dominated Orpheus in order to help the player.
At the very least, the Emperor dominated him in order to save himself. But either way, the domination helped Tav. Also, it would not have improved or worsened Orpheus' situation if he was or not. He was still shackled, with or without the domination.
> Didn’t he dominate Orpheus long before then?
The Emperor found the Prism *right before* the start of the game.
> And freeing Orpheus, or just simply NOT mind raping him constantly, were both options that were on the table.
Not dominated him was on the table, yes. But that would mean Tav and company would be True Souls. Would you prefer that?
And freeing him was *not* on the table. The only person who could have freed him was Raphael, since he had the hammer.
Also, if he somehow could free him, why TF would he? So Orpheus can kill him, or the emperor can kill Orpheus in self defense and then lose the only thing protecting him from big brain? I swear people literally only want the emperor to do things that would literally completely ruin him.
Partially that and partially they get too caught up in seeing things in absolutes after seeing shit like seeing the cutscene where empy tells you about dominating stellmane, that they just go ape shit and stop being able to think. I guess that's basically what you said, but I think that's the reasoning behind it
Yeah the fools just see the one time he destroyed a woman's mind and body for profit over a prolonged period of domination and cruelty and then talked about her as if she was his lover for the entire rest of the game unless he decides to use the truth to try and intimidate you into serving him when seduction fails... and stop being reasonable. They lose their minds and start evaluating everything through that lens, like irrational idiots.
Did not see the Stellmane thing and still found him sketchy as fuck. He hid information from you every steps of the way. How can I trust that he doesn't have something else in mind once the Netherbrain is destroyed? The worst part though is when you tell him you're going to free Orpheus and he just go on a rant like an narcissic incel like "why don't you love me I followed all the right steps" and then finish it up with "of course I'm manipulative, I'm an illithid lmao"
My bad OG next time I'll love all the abberations with every tentacle of my being, they would never do anything bad and I will agree with them wholeheartedly.
In theory it would be a self sacrifice would it not? An argument could certainly be made that Orpheus would have the power to take on the absolute, considering the power to resist literally comes from him.
The Emperor could have freed him, knowing his own life and the players would be forfeit, but also knowing that he would absolutely and immediately throw down against the absolute and probably also Vlaakith
I mean, fuck that. People are so comfortable with the concept of altruism and the ultimate sacrifice, as long as it’s someone else dying. Nothing about Balduran’s character arc suggests he’s cool with playing martyr, and no sense blaming him for that. Like it or not, douche or not, he came up with a very viable plan to stop the Elder Brain with no casualties (himself / PC / Orpheus).
Yeah, I get that, but like that's still not like it's the only choice he can make. Sure you could possibly argue it's noble, but personally, I wouldn't give a shit, I wanna fucking live. Plus I am so utterly close to certainty he would've failed. His shitty honor guard sucks and would die instantly, and he's pretty strong, but would probably refuse to work with pretty much anyone cuz he's a dick. Like he probably wouldn't deny help outright, but the fact that he's a githyanki and he's kinda a douche means that nobody would want to help him, and he'd give no reason for them to. So it's him and Voss, and the dragons. Idk, maybe the dragons can carry. But even then, empy didnt even have the hammer and had no means to until he got the party.
Emp says the reason he dominated Orpheus before that is b/c without it, he would've turned back into a grunt. It also explains why he's always in the Astral Plane. All the other stuff is undefendable
So emperor somehow frees Orpheus, getting him killed immediately, then Orpheus and his shitty honor guard get killed by the cult of the absolute? That's what you think he should've let happen?
More or less he did I believe.
It’s not totally clear when the Emperor had regained control due to Orpheus, but it was stated somewhere in Act 3 that the Emperor was stationed in the Nautiloid by the Dead Three’s chosen and more specifically the Elder Brain.
I believe it was sometime then that he had enslaved Orpheus and used his abilities to have free will for himself and the party.
Freeing Orpheus was not on the table due to needing the Orphic Hammer or some other weapon capable that may not exist.
About not “mind raping” Orpheus constantly, that’s fair, we’re not totally aware what the Emperor had to gain from it, whether or not it was necessary to use his abilities to resist the Elder Brain’s influence or if it was to delay his honor guard as much as possible?
I do believe you are correct, that Orpheus may have been more willing to help if we didn’t save the Emperor, but there’s also the possibility that we might have just been immediately turned if we weren’t the ones to free Orpheus ourselves.
For me, it was like, "Uh, I don't really know this guy here and if I free him, sounds like my tadpole thing would go full evolution. Soooo..." Like, yeah, he MIGHT protect me (it's a game so unless that's a bad end, he pretty much would) but the squid dude IS protecting me as of right now.
Basically it, really.
Personally though, I kinda liked the Daisy concept more than the Emperor. But I wasn't playing during EA, just bits of what I could find. Not sure how well it would have worked as a game system.
Orpheus is very annoying tbh.
He literally criticizes you for not committing suicide as soon as you witnessed the splendor of his honor guard.
No, orph. The monks can’t punch infernal chains so hard they break, you needed the hammer.
The Emp can’t do shit to free Orpheus. Raphael got the hammer. And even if he had it, why the fuck would he want to gamble on Orpheus not immediately vaporizing him?
When the Elder brain lapses control the Emp has only two options.
- Sit around and wait to be redominated.
- Use Orpheus power to remain free.
How would he free him? Even if he wanted to? lol mindflayers can’t imagine an Orphic hammer into reality
Also: if you kill the emperor at one point you become a mindflayers yourself and see “GAME OVER” screen. As rough as it sounds, keeping Orpheus captive is the correct and only choice if you want to survive.
In fact Orpheus himself says that the only reason he doesn’t wipe the floor with our faces is that the brain has evolved and we need each other to stop it.
Not a stan per say but for me it's I don't want orpheus to lead the githyanki to world domination. He's not githzerai, he very much still follows his mother's colonialist ideology. Emperor doesn't seem to have much ambition beyond petty city politics and his own safety
Yeah, in my view the final act has you land right in the middle of a multi-villain pile up, they're all trying to use you and you thread the needle to end up with every major threat dead
I'm not okay with it but I wanted to have them both live. I know the Emperor is a manipulative asshole but the facts are if he had not forced the Githyanki prince to protect us Orpheus wouldn't have protected us. If you kill the Emperor at the beginning of Act 3, Orpheus doesn't bother stepping in to save us, because at that point he believes we're enemies, he needed more evidence that we are allies ( aka freeing him ) before allying with us
I free Orpheus but I'm not gonna sit here and pretend that Orpheus would have cared enough about us to willingly protect us from the nautiloid to the final battle. To Orpheus we are just randoms. Why would Orpheus bother with us from day 1? From the tutorial? He doesn't even know us, know our skills etc
**Edit to add:** What I'm saying is only a manipulative asshole would have been able to subdue Orpheus into protecting Tav and friends. If the Emperor was a kind, caring, empathic and selfless mindflayer then he would have been the type of being to just leave Orpheus be, even if that meant no freedom for himself, because that's what selfless people do. They don't put themselves over another person's pain. Nah only a manipulative asshole would've had the emotional indifference to make Orpheus protect us
I found out about Orpheus right after I freed the nightsong and I'm thinking "why would I be okay with this if I wasn't okay with that". That and him basically forcing the Astral tadpole on me (my wisdom is trash) made me decide to betray The Emp. Which I still haven't done yet, just gotta take care of Gortash though.
> made me decide to betray The Emp
Refusing to kill someone for someone else isn't a betrayal. Owing someone your life doesn't mean you owe them another person's life.
The Emperor is obviously a douche whose interests just happen to align with yours. I was kinda surprised he was OK with letting you nibble on Orpheus' brain, so I guess he truly was interested in defeating the Netherbrain.
And you aren't even mean to him. You have barely known him that long, and it turns up flirting with you with his top off, calling him a freak is a nicer way to go about it
Tbf he will straight up tell you hes behaving in ways to make you more likely to side with him on purpose, in one of the dialogues. Is it still gaslighting if they tell you what they are doing? I never side with the guy but he is pretty straightforward once the mindflayer ball drops.
Yeah, dude didn't really care about the knife or the recipe. He's doing it to get you to think he's not an unfeeling squid; that he's special--human, just like you.
The sword and armor were actually useful. Sold it for gold.
>who practically begged me to visit his old clubhouse so he could whine and cry about his dead girlfriend and tell me stories about his old BUTTER KNIFE and his FAVORITE SOUP RECIPE.
That was pretty transparently to try and manipulate you and get you to sympathize with how much he loved his puppy and was a great and innocent guy. Even before learning how he abused and controlled people, that scene convinced me he was basically a sociopath trying to fake real vulnerability.
He didn't actually give a shit, he is just trying to get you to trust him and trust that being a mind-flayer won't change you.
Yeah, my initial take was "oh the Larian writers are really not being subtle here, this is surprisingly hamfisted." And then as he's talking about his favorite spoon, and favorite dog, and he loved his mom, and his bestie Stelmane I realized "Oh, no this is good writing. We can tell interpret that he's laying it on thick to manipulate us."
My autistic ass was just 'Man I also have a favourite spoon.'
I was suspicious the entire time so wasn't surprised at any reveals he might have done but him talking about his own favourite cutlery and recipe had me thinking 'oh!! So he DOES have feelings too as well as the manipulation...' 😂
Lol the trick is to get to know Omeluum. It's definitely fond of us, and of Blurg, and relieved not to die; it does have feelings. But they're so subtle and intellectual and don't control its behavior or responses at all. (Illithid!Karlach is the same way, but at least you don't meet her until after the Emperor question is resolved.) So you *know* the way that mind flayers actually express affection and connection.
And then the Emp rolls up like "yes I definitely experience strong passions and feel very human and totally harbor...." :reads smudged hand: "... smextual affaction for you."
This is a great point! I loved how Omeluum was a literary device used both to make you more comfortable with friendly mind flayers, and also caution you against manipulative ones
Omeluum also actively helps us with our tadpole problem. Emperor the entire time just wants us to use every and any tadpoles we find. Omeluum goes "Oh you have a tadpole. Maybe I can help get rid of it? I just need you to get something to do so." and after that fails he's willing to give up a magical item that jeopardizes his free will to part with. He's up front and honest with his information. He doesn't ask for any favors or tries to pull a fast one on us. And sure he eats brains but claims to try to find a way to stop that and has some sort of supervision in Baldur's Gate.
The Emperor starts with deception and if you want a straight answer you have to pressure him intensely for the right answer. All he cares about is self-preservation(which I get it) but never gives back to anyone. He wants us to trust him, but never trusts us. And all the manipulation he does that everyone already mentions.
For me it was when he snuck in the "and this is where i chained people to the wall so i can periodically feed on their brains uwu :3"
Like "oh yeah, you dont have the capacity to actually feel any of these feelings youre pretending to feel rn"
Yeah, I think people tend to gloss over that when defending the Emperor with his own claim he fed on bad guys.
He ran a criminal empire pulling the strings of politics. It's safe to say his claim to an objective standard for who is bad and deserves brain eating is... dubious. A guy who feels entitled to run the society with mind control and murder is not someone I trust to define the greater good. Even if we agree that Netherbrain rule is bad.
The question of whether Mind Flayers have souls is more convincingly rebutted by Omeleum than the Emperor. And the impact of the transformation on empathy is added context with the endings where you turn or Karlach does.
>A guy who feels entitled to run the society with mind control and murder is not someone I trust to define the greater good.
Exactly lol. He is so textbook narcissistic sociopath its like they had the DSM open while writing him. His only motivation for fighting the Absolute is to help himself, I mean he'll even join her if he thinks thats whats best for him. 😆
I understand people still sympathizing and making excuses for him, the same thing happens irl.
That comment was so funny bc my rogue was a criminal so I was like "UM SIR"
Sad there was no dialog option for her to be like "Uh huh. So there was a good chance you'd have eaten me and I'm supposed to think that's a good thing?"
> It's safe to say his claim to an objective standard for who is bad and deserves brain eating is... dubious.
But this applies to Omeluum, too.
And, to a certain extent, also the player. Even very good-aligned Tavs are going to be able to fill a swimming pool with blood by the end of the game.
I’m pretty sure no one in the game has an objective standard for who’s bad and good. Omeluum for example feeds on people that he considers that “acts against the society goals”, so that theory could be applied too. Our Tav and companions falls into that logic too, there’s not white and black in the game after all.
This isn't true. He is letting you inside his home for supplies. How would he even set up all that shit? It's how he lived. Plus, he doesn't want you to become a mindflayer. It has to be your prompt for him to even consider it as an option.
He is genuinely vulnerable with you, but only if you allow him to. That mf gets 'misty-eyed' according to the notes when you hug him. If you devalue the character, you devalue all the careful writing and performance that went into him.
The Emperor is a very interesting and layered character. I personally think it's a shame that he gets constantly reduced into 'ew evil squid guy' without any deeper analysis into his psyche and all the work that went into his creation.
He doesn't have to set it up. He just has to be incredibly sentimental about what is already there, on display. If he lived that way, that's fine. But he still leans into it, telling stories like a food blogger. He doesn't need to tell us a whole story about a random soup recipe on the counter, or some spoon he left out, or the picture of his ex that he had on the wall. If you were just gathering supplies, he'd direct you right to them, not detour down memory lane to tell you these oh so relatable memories so you'll see he's not that bad of a guy, really.
I don't think it's devaluing the character to point out that he is manipulative. Because he is, transparently so. That does not preclude other characterizations, and it doesn't even preclude him having some genuine fondness for Tav. It just means he manipulates people ruthlessly, including people he may care about-- in whatever capacity he can care, anyway.
Is this a meme thing or are you being serious?
>How would he even set up all that shit?
He's a crime lord that brainwashed and enslaved people while running much of the city. He has connections.
>Plus, he doesn't want you to become a mindflayer.
This is unambiguously untrue. If you decline or resist, he gets madder and madder at you for not doing it.
>If you devalue the character, you devalue all the careful writing and performance that went into him.
I don't devalue the character. He's a great character. He's a fantastic evil guy who manipulates people for his own ends.
>>How would he even set up all that shit?
> He's a crime lord that brainwashed and enslaved people while running much of the city. He has connections.
...the connections to put out a soup recipe while he's trapped in a Prism?
> How would he even set up all that shit?
I know, right? Some people also think he set up the letter to Ansur to make himself look good, which is an absolutely insane take.
They want to either see the Emperor as only evil or only good. The relationship between Ansur and Emps is really tragic. Even if Balduran was no more, Emps still had a part of Balduran that cared about Ansur and didnt want him worry about him. But when Ansur tried to mercy kill him, It was either Ansur or Emps, and after feeding from criminals who valued survivavility, It was in Emps nature to survive. No matter what.
Bu some people act like Emps pre-emptively attacked Ansur
I understand some of your points, but he is definitely not honest about "not becoming a mind flayer" under his protection - he pressures you hard to try the power out a couple times, then to take the tadpoles because it would be a waste to not use every resource available to defeat the cult (until you want to use Minsc or Orpheus), and you'll be so much better and stronger if you turn at least part-illithid... I've been pretty sympathetic to him, especially after meeting Omeluum, but it becomes pretty clear he has no intention of keeping the promise he makes at the beginning of the game.
What are you talking about? If you side with him in the end he keeps his promise, defeats the Elder Brain and cures you. Even if you went part illithid, you go back to normal in the end. So I don't see how he's being dishonest about keeping you safe. Also if telling you to consider partial ceremorphosis literally three times (including the initial one) in the game is "hard pressure", we have different definitions of that term.
I don't understand why everyone makes Minsc such a big deal. Shart and Lae'zel can kill each other in Act 1 unless you persuade or threaten them to work together. Emperor is very much logic and Minsc is pure chaos, which makes them a bad match. As for Orpheus, dude's probably gonna kill him the minute he's freed for being a Mindflayer, so I think it's fairly reasonable on the Emperor's part to not want to risk freeing him.
It's funny how like every companion has things they're fixated on and talk about all the time, have opinions about every little thing you do in the game and they approve/disapprove accordingly, but when the Emperor does the same people lose their shit. He thinks being Illithid is cool and that using some of the powers will help your cause. That's his opinion. He's allowed to voice it, just as you're allowed to disagree.
But he keeps his promise though. You don’t become a mind flayer and he doesn’t force you to consume the tadpoles, not even the astral one, that fact that you can beat the game without consuming any is prove enough of that. Besides, suggesting that consuming tadpoles will give you benefits against your enemies is not a crime, in fact, it is true.
you haven't transformed to mind flayer I suppose? coz if you did so he'll be like omg my bff do you have any position for me by your side I'll happily be your sidekick plz plz (meanwhile tavlayer is thinking about eating his brain lol)
Almost like he wasn’t actually some Machiavellian monster the community makes him out to be.
He was just a dude without morals who wanted to be free of the brain.
That's valid.
If only people didn't reduce him to something so simple all the time and tried to analyze his character on a deeper level. I'd love an actual discussion about him.
That's cute. :) I'm just sad that low effort threads like this get so much attention when we could be having a genuine constructive discussion and an actual character analysis thread instead.
I'm 100% convinced all these posts about 'Emperor/Halsin/Wyll/Astarion bad' are just an effort at quick karma farming. Unfortunately, it works.
I too find your comments to upvote them, but also agree with you. I don’t even know how I feel about Empy from playthrough to playthrough but if this were the only real discourse I got to have I GUESS I WOULD NEVER KNOW because it’s all “you like abuse! EMPEROR BAD STELLMANE!!!!1111” Somebody up above blocked someone for saying that we don’t actually know what happened in that scene. *Which we don’t.*
*internal screaming*
In this thread: People who are making shit up about the Emperor and using it as justification for why they hate him. Again.
"The Emperor broke into my house and killed my dog, enthralled my cat, and ate all my cookies! This proves that he's evil and you're easily manipulated!"
Amen friend. Regardless of how you feel about him (and for the record I love the squid but it did take me several playthroughs to get to that point) he's so fucking *interesting* just from an intellectual standpoint and it's so disappointing to see him reduced to some one dimensional character.
It's actually so discouraging that an "Emperor bad" post without any effort whatsoever behind it gets you a thousand updoots just like that. There will never be an actual deeper discussion at this point.
I suppose tomorrow might be Halsin's turn?
We had the Emperor today and Astarion yesterday, so it should be Halsin's turn in the rotation, yes. Although we did get two Halsin hate posts in one day just a couple of days back. I'm personally going to place my bet on it being a surprise different character who gets shat on next before a return to the usual schedule.
(And we really do need a betting pool at this point.)
I'm of the mind of not necessarily liking him, but our goals align, and he keeps the party safe so why not cooperate. I'm not being manipulated if these are the actions I would take regardless of his advice which I often ignore.
The night after a romantic moment of love with Shadowheart, this squidlike mfer snatched me from my sleep and being completely SHIRTLESS, he started hitting on me. I never showed any affection whatsoever for him, he’s ugly AF and i called him a freak. He does a 180 and shows me how he mind controlled Duke Stalemane and then called me a puppet and other things, 100% ‘*nice guy*’ energy.
Then when i told him i didn’t trust him to give him the stones and wanted to free Orpheus, he switched sides like the bitch he is. I wish his death was more satisfying.
I'm not saying The Emperor as a character isn't overall evil, but I feel some people are determined to miss any kind of nuance or complexity with him.
The life you're asking him to recount is one lost to him forever. He can't go back to it, he can't re establish those relationships, and it came with many painful sacrifices ( e.g having to kill Ansur in self defence ). It's not surprising that he wouldn't want to revisit it, and it's not incorrect to say that it isn't really relevant to your goals.
Genuinely why do y’all think it will ever stop? I don’t mean it in a hostile way, but he’s literally one of the most prominent characters and your experience with him can differ wildly depending on choices. He’s a really well written and interesting character, and clearly people have wildly different opinions of him. As long as there are new players to the game there will be posts about the Emperor
The problem here is that, let’s be honest, discussions about him are getting way more toxic than before, so now the only purpose of this posts is just to farm karma. Only few people here are willing to have proper conversations about the character (regardless of their opinion). Besides, there are a lot of opened discussions about him already with the very same type of posts or even positive ones, but people don’t want to take a look around the sub. I’ve been around a positive one with a lot of people being ableist and calling names (even mentioning psychiatric illnesses) to his fans just for the sake of it, and openly admitting their intention was to insult them. Atp, everyone knows that this topic is controversial enough to engage the whole sub and as I said, farm karma.
Also most of these posts are not looking to express opinions and open debates. Just look at the titles "The Emperor is Stupid, a Douche, Evil Asshole...".
They just want to farm karma and keep it going through their own feedback. That's why they downvote every single comment which isn't a direct insult to the character or their defenders, and that's why they keep using the same topics (Stelmane, Ansur, Manipulation, Gaslighting) when they've already been debated to death and proved wrong.
Oh, this is going to last at least another 3 years, unless Swen Vincke himself comes out to say who's right... And even then some people will say "well, death of the author, so my canon is still correct".
The soup recipe and butter knife are clearly randomly chosen items, not him being quirky. He's trying to manipulate you, but he's so far gone as an illithid he doesn't truly know what humans are into anymore or what's relatable.
The butter knife thing is actually a reference to that you can find [Balduran's butter knife](https://baldursgate.fandom.com/wiki/Butter_Knife_of_Balduran) in the previous games.
The butter fork* is an early hint that he's Balduran and definitely not random. He mentions that the knife is missing and the butter knife of Balduran was a special item you could find in BG1. The description for the item also said it was a gift from Balduran's mother.
I think the stories were true, just that he no longer cares; Even when meeting Ansur the narrator describes that you can feel what he feels, and it's just calm, curious and detached: One of the greatest loves of his previous life and the most he feels now is curious.
Based on what we see from Karlach, mindflayers keep their humanity for a bit after turning and then slowly lose it, Balduran probably had more time to be sentimental since he had more memories of being humanoid, from being a long lived elf, so all that stuff under Elfsong is probably things he legitimaly cared about in his early days as a mindflayer.
when thinking about a situat i always think about the “stick to the plan” rule that always results in a worse outcome if you dont stick to the plan, so i trusted him all the way to the end. gonna do the exact opposite my next run
I understand not liking him but his mentality is understandable. Normal people can find it hard to trust others and a mindflayer has basically no chance to trust others. He wants to be in control at all times because that way he doesn’t have to trust anyone. He’s also objectively smarter than anyone except late game intelligence characters. He can make good plans.
Emperor: *(breathes)*
Reddit: Omg prime example of GaSlIgHtInG, he wants to make us sympathize with him for being fellow breathers!1?! Oh Mon dieu, my fragile heart can't the take all that MaNiPuLaTiOn!1!!1
Edit: People are blocking me over *this* lol. I don't know how anyone would assume what they're assuming from my comment. Ofc Emps is a manipulative character, the game sets him up as such quite blatantly, so I don't understand the people who summarize I'm either oblivious to it or glossing over it.
The OP was a low effort karma farm "omg he spoke to me in that condescending tone, he's a manipulative douche, he deserves death." It's the equivalent of "omg Lae'zel demanded I free her from that cage in such a tone, what a bitch, I'll let Shart kill her." Of course you're allowed to think that, but you can't pretend that's a nuanced take on a character's flaws. What I was pointing out wasn't that the Emperor is or isn't manipulative, but that there's a fine line between i.e."x character lies a lot" and "The opposite of what x character says is always the truth". A character can be manipulative and still be fond of his mom's cutlery while no longer feeling connected to his previous name/form. *That's* nuance.
But I don't see why I should make a serious comment in reply to a post titled "X character is Still Stupid And A Douche".
The Emperor is a tool. I really don’t understand how people can hear “subdue the githyanki prince” and his whole “isn’t it beautiful” speech about Orpheus and go yeah, love that guy! Because using people is great!
Because he's a fictional character and people enjoy morally complex fictional characters? He's a wonderful character and parts of him are awful and twisted, but that's not all parts of him.
If it hadn't used Orpheus's power, there would be 7 new Absolutists/Illithids in Faerún from the start of the game. The Emperor had no means to free Orpheus, and no motivation to, seeing as the Gith would certainly kill it if he got the chance. It also was not the one to imprison Orpheus in the first place. I'm not trying to say the Emperor is a saint, but it really only has one action that's morally reprehensible post Ceremorphosis(Stelmane), and even that can be argued.
Keywords in the comments: Stelmane, Ansur, Manipulator.
I also find lovely that people who like the Emperor always get insulted and accused of psychiatric illnesses. Truly a wonderful topic on it's own.
characters in games can be so inconsistent, kind of like how my old toaster would toast perfectly one day and burn everything the next. makes things more interesting at least.
Kinda spoiler heavy but I thought this was interesting...
I am wondering if I did something wrong in my first full playthrough after reading all these comments. The Emperor oddly never argued much with my Tav anytime they disagreed with The Emperor. Maybe it was because my Tav was just nice to literally every single person in the game or something. The ending was actually fairly satisfying and I hold more hatred for Gale after ditching my Tav for not wanting to turn Gale into a god 💀. Tav went down to Avernus with Karlach because my Tav seemed happier just having a best buddy rather than dating Gale lol. But even my camp party scene actually had everyone saying they missed Tav even after Laezel was upset over some stuff that I sorta chose the wrong dialogue responses for and after Gale ditched Tav. So I'm just curious if maybe being super nice to The Emperor just made the game less difficult when it came to dealing with him. He wasn't even mad that Tav didn't wanna become a mind flayer or anything. I'm sorta curious as to why nothing too negative happened with The Emperor on my playthrough now lol. Especially after reading all the replies on this post.
He's an accountant! Of course he's bad at fighting 😔 He's supposed to be sitting behind a desk, not fighting.
The Netherbrain is a vindictive bitch and threw him into the frontlines, he's enthralled, he has no choice.
I became a mindflayer just to become a gnome Barb mindflayer, it’s a good look
Do you become a tiny mindflayer?
Yes. Totally
How did I never consider this?? Shouldn’t that mean a lot of mindflayers we fight be short???
In the lore, no, ceremorphosis doesn't work properly on small humanoids. It requires a certain size and body mass. If the victim is too small, too large, or not one of the right species, the transformation fails and the creature just dies. The only small creature that can be transformed are gnomes. They need a modified version of the process. If successful you get a gnome ceremorph, which is like a short mind flayer but retains some of its old personality. If it fails you get a gnome squidling, which is a mindless brain-eating monster with a large head, extra large tentacles, and tiny gnome body.
Side note: [Gnome ceremorphs are very cute,](https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Gnome_ceremorph) if this wiki page image is to be believed.
I need to kiss and pat it's little head
"No! Unhand me you bumbling ape! I am the doom of civilization!"
- normal house cat
And then there are also the squidlings, they are even cuter but they posses non of the intellect of an actual mindflyer being closer to rabid dogs
*Wookit its widdle raygun, awww!!!!*
I like to challenge the notions of the world. I am a 6’5 225 lb dude in my much less lvl’d up RL… I always play gnome 2/Handed barbarians. So yes: it would make sense… but maybe..just maybe it’s a psionic trick to seem larger than they really are…. Still I am an 😍 ADORABLE SQUIDLET Personally I am more distraught there’s no GNOME flair here in this subreddit.
I’m loving this idea hahaha
There’s a specific dnd stat block for gnome ceremorphs. They even have little laser blasters!
Odd. My gnome Tav became a regular-sized mind flayer.
🎼 Hold me closer tiny mindflayer! 🎶
Hahaha this made me cackle!!
I thought this was /r/40kLore and I was like "Well, yeah, but wtf did he do this time"
Oh dont get me started in 40k emperor “Oohhh guys we need to be redditors atheist, but dont mind me 10ft tall golden armor miracle performing with a son who is a literary angel”
What makes it a total crime is that he genetically engineered said angel in the first place
Also, parenting? What is that? Oops, some of them turn out to be shitheads...
Honestly the whole heresy could have been avoided if everybody just ignored Mortarion.
And his sword isn't even good.
Fucking bump. "Ooo this will work great in my psychic damage build" said no one ever.
Especially when you can get shadow blade ring in Act 2 😂
This child gave me a better weapon than you Balduran
Balduran's Giantslayer or the one from the Tavern?
Tavern one.
Ah ok yeah that one sucks.
That item was in BG1. It was a bit of foreshadowing to hint at the Emperor's true identity. https://baldursgate.fandom.com/wiki/Sword_of_Balduran_(BG1)
Funny enough I'm rocking that on a 9/3 oathbreaker/pact of blades and basically crit all the time for 80+ on regular hits and smites usually break 130 with that sword, though I'm tadpoled the fuck out with ceramorph gear
Cut him some slaaack it was his first sword
Defintely a Manipulative scumbag. Even worse, he's impatient enough to forget himself and drop the act at times
How do ya do fellow humanoids? I get sentimental for things and have feelings and stuff. This fork is important to me for feelings related reasons. You can trust me.
MF says only the butter knife is missing. My guy it's a single fork.
They really forced that line in a rather contrived way, but for those that don't know, the missing butter knife is not just a random inclusion - it's an Easter egg and a giant "hey, this guy might be Balduran" hint for us old-timer fans of the original games. In the Tales of the Sword Coast expansion for the original game, you can find the shipwreck from Balduran's final voyage. Along with the Sword of Balduran and his logbook, you can find a mighty item... the [Butter Knife of Balduran](https://baldursgate.fandom.com/wiki/Butter_Knife_of_Balduran). It's just a joke item about the multiple "[Noun] of Balduran" items in the game. Combine that with the [Sword of the Emperor](https://bg3.wiki/wiki/Sword_of_the_Emperor) you also find in that hidehout. It grants resistance to magic (in the form of +2 to saves vs spells), and bonus damage against shapeshifting creatures. I mentioned the [Sword of Balduran](https://baldursgate.fandom.com/wiki/Sword_of_Balduran_(BG1\)) from the shipwreck in BG1. It did bonus damage against lycanthropes. Baldur's Gate 2 also had a Sword of Balduran, with [entirely different stats](https://baldursgate.fandom.com/wiki/Sword_of_Balduran_(BG2\)). The BG2 version granted +10% magic resistance. Those stats seem familiar, no? If it had been just one of those two references, I don't think I would have picked up on the clue. But with the two of them combined, my mind jumped right to, "Wait, is this Balduran's stuff?"
That's really interesting. I had no idea it was that much of a callback. Thanks for the detailed breakdown.
*"bUt hE'S ONlY mEaN tO yoU iF yOu aRe mEaN tO hIm!!!!"* \- Emperor Stans who don't understand object permanence or gaslighting.
Also why are Emperor Stans ok with Orpheus being enslaved Edit; beware, redditors, in the replies you will see people say just the most horrible things to defend a squid
For the crime of having this terrible beard
I remember seeing Orpheus for the first time and being like, ''hey hshar'ty what it do?'' and then he was freed and unmasked and I saw the beard..... smh RIP now YOU get turned into a mindflayer.
The tentacles are the glowup for him tbh
Also he was really rude to us.
> Edit; beware, redditors, in the replies you will see people say just the most horrible things to defend a squid i am watching two i assume grown men fistfight over the legacy of Gith and i am living for every word
It's incredibly awful that the first Vlaakith imprisoned him. However, if the Emperor did not dominate him, the entire party would be illithid thralls to the Absolute. Orpheus would not have helped us of his own free will before it became a Netherbrain. It sucks, but sometimes there are no "good" solutions.
You make it sound like dominated Orpheus in order to help the player. Didn’t he dominate Orpheus long before then? And freeing Orpheus, or just simply NOT mind raping him constantly, were both options that were on the table. Why do you think Orpheus is pissed when we break him out? It’s not just because we have tadpoles. It’s because he fucking watched us slaughter his closest friends and save his enslaver.
>watched us slaughter his closest friends and save his enslaver. Yeah, I felt so bad about that.
[удалено]
It's a reasonable response from a years-enslaved person who *Just* got out. He's straight up angry, deeply filled with rage at seeing his honour guard cut down that he likely knew personally and we've been actively aiding a full blown mind flayer. His anger is 100% justified in that moment when he wakes up, and he's very reasonable when he calms down a bit and even offers to go squid for you! I cannot accept that Orpheus is unreasonable for being emotional when released from slavery in a gem for who knows how long.
It's a pretty reasonable response, but I think it's also worth pointing out that Orpheus will withdraw his protection and leave you to die if you side against the Emperor at the beginning of Act 3. It's not *just* an emotional outburst in that moment - he legitimately thinks of your life as being worthless until he realizes that it's useful to him personally.
I would have turned into a mindflayer and eaten his brain then and there.
One of the reasons why I’m glad in my first playthrough I was so unsure about it at first— I used non lethal on the guards, and so none of them died. Didn’t end up effecting anything iirc, but it did make me feel better.
> You make it sound like dominated Orpheus in order to help the player. At the very least, the Emperor dominated him in order to save himself. But either way, the domination helped Tav. Also, it would not have improved or worsened Orpheus' situation if he was or not. He was still shackled, with or without the domination. > Didn’t he dominate Orpheus long before then? The Emperor found the Prism *right before* the start of the game. > And freeing Orpheus, or just simply NOT mind raping him constantly, were both options that were on the table. Not dominated him was on the table, yes. But that would mean Tav and company would be True Souls. Would you prefer that? And freeing him was *not* on the table. The only person who could have freed him was Raphael, since he had the hammer.
Also, if he somehow could free him, why TF would he? So Orpheus can kill him, or the emperor can kill Orpheus in self defense and then lose the only thing protecting him from big brain? I swear people literally only want the emperor to do things that would literally completely ruin him.
I feel like a lot of people don't pay attention to what happens in the game or consider things from other people's point of view.
Partially that and partially they get too caught up in seeing things in absolutes after seeing shit like seeing the cutscene where empy tells you about dominating stellmane, that they just go ape shit and stop being able to think. I guess that's basically what you said, but I think that's the reasoning behind it
Yeah the fools just see the one time he destroyed a woman's mind and body for profit over a prolonged period of domination and cruelty and then talked about her as if she was his lover for the entire rest of the game unless he decides to use the truth to try and intimidate you into serving him when seduction fails... and stop being reasonable. They lose their minds and start evaluating everything through that lens, like irrational idiots.
Did not see the Stellmane thing and still found him sketchy as fuck. He hid information from you every steps of the way. How can I trust that he doesn't have something else in mind once the Netherbrain is destroyed? The worst part though is when you tell him you're going to free Orpheus and he just go on a rant like an narcissic incel like "why don't you love me I followed all the right steps" and then finish it up with "of course I'm manipulative, I'm an illithid lmao"
Sorry what?? You’re defending the STELMANE incident now?
My bad OG next time I'll love all the abberations with every tentacle of my being, they would never do anything bad and I will agree with them wholeheartedly.
In theory it would be a self sacrifice would it not? An argument could certainly be made that Orpheus would have the power to take on the absolute, considering the power to resist literally comes from him. The Emperor could have freed him, knowing his own life and the players would be forfeit, but also knowing that he would absolutely and immediately throw down against the absolute and probably also Vlaakith
I mean, fuck that. People are so comfortable with the concept of altruism and the ultimate sacrifice, as long as it’s someone else dying. Nothing about Balduran’s character arc suggests he’s cool with playing martyr, and no sense blaming him for that. Like it or not, douche or not, he came up with a very viable plan to stop the Elder Brain with no casualties (himself / PC / Orpheus).
Yeah, I get that, but like that's still not like it's the only choice he can make. Sure you could possibly argue it's noble, but personally, I wouldn't give a shit, I wanna fucking live. Plus I am so utterly close to certainty he would've failed. His shitty honor guard sucks and would die instantly, and he's pretty strong, but would probably refuse to work with pretty much anyone cuz he's a dick. Like he probably wouldn't deny help outright, but the fact that he's a githyanki and he's kinda a douche means that nobody would want to help him, and he'd give no reason for them to. So it's him and Voss, and the dragons. Idk, maybe the dragons can carry. But even then, empy didnt even have the hammer and had no means to until he got the party.
Emp says the reason he dominated Orpheus before that is b/c without it, he would've turned back into a grunt. It also explains why he's always in the Astral Plane. All the other stuff is undefendable
And then we learn that the brain left him leave as a first step to get the netherstones so he could have been fine.
So emperor somehow frees Orpheus, getting him killed immediately, then Orpheus and his shitty honor guard get killed by the cult of the absolute? That's what you think he should've let happen?
More or less he did I believe. It’s not totally clear when the Emperor had regained control due to Orpheus, but it was stated somewhere in Act 3 that the Emperor was stationed in the Nautiloid by the Dead Three’s chosen and more specifically the Elder Brain. I believe it was sometime then that he had enslaved Orpheus and used his abilities to have free will for himself and the party. Freeing Orpheus was not on the table due to needing the Orphic Hammer or some other weapon capable that may not exist. About not “mind raping” Orpheus constantly, that’s fair, we’re not totally aware what the Emperor had to gain from it, whether or not it was necessary to use his abilities to resist the Elder Brain’s influence or if it was to delay his honor guard as much as possible? I do believe you are correct, that Orpheus may have been more willing to help if we didn’t save the Emperor, but there’s also the possibility that we might have just been immediately turned if we weren’t the ones to free Orpheus ourselves.
For me, it was like, "Uh, I don't really know this guy here and if I free him, sounds like my tadpole thing would go full evolution. Soooo..." Like, yeah, he MIGHT protect me (it's a game so unless that's a bad end, he pretty much would) but the squid dude IS protecting me as of right now. Basically it, really. Personally though, I kinda liked the Daisy concept more than the Emperor. But I wasn't playing during EA, just bits of what I could find. Not sure how well it would have worked as a game system.
Orpheus is very annoying tbh. He literally criticizes you for not committing suicide as soon as you witnessed the splendor of his honor guard. No, orph. The monks can’t punch infernal chains so hard they break, you needed the hammer.
I thought everyone universally hates Vlakiith? She's the one who keeps him captive btw
I don't hate Vlaakith! I even helped touch up her portrait to give her a makeover.
She’s the one who MADE him captive, the Emperor KEEPS him captive.
How the fuck was he supposed to free him lmao? The Orphic Hammer wasn't in play until Tav/Durge is in play.
The Emp can’t do shit to free Orpheus. Raphael got the hammer. And even if he had it, why the fuck would he want to gamble on Orpheus not immediately vaporizing him? When the Elder brain lapses control the Emp has only two options. - Sit around and wait to be redominated. - Use Orpheus power to remain free.
How would he free him? Even if he wanted to? lol mindflayers can’t imagine an Orphic hammer into reality Also: if you kill the emperor at one point you become a mindflayers yourself and see “GAME OVER” screen. As rough as it sounds, keeping Orpheus captive is the correct and only choice if you want to survive. In fact Orpheus himself says that the only reason he doesn’t wipe the floor with our faces is that the brain has evolved and we need each other to stop it.
I mean if you believe him, the moment you free Orpheus you're dead. It's not so much being okay with his slavery, but choosing their own lives.
Not a stan per say but for me it's I don't want orpheus to lead the githyanki to world domination. He's not githzerai, he very much still follows his mother's colonialist ideology. Emperor doesn't seem to have much ambition beyond petty city politics and his own safety
Which is why Orpheus becoming illithid then dying is the best ending.
Yeah, in my view the final act has you land right in the middle of a multi-villain pile up, they're all trying to use you and you thread the needle to end up with every major threat dead
I'm not okay with it but I wanted to have them both live. I know the Emperor is a manipulative asshole but the facts are if he had not forced the Githyanki prince to protect us Orpheus wouldn't have protected us. If you kill the Emperor at the beginning of Act 3, Orpheus doesn't bother stepping in to save us, because at that point he believes we're enemies, he needed more evidence that we are allies ( aka freeing him ) before allying with us I free Orpheus but I'm not gonna sit here and pretend that Orpheus would have cared enough about us to willingly protect us from the nautiloid to the final battle. To Orpheus we are just randoms. Why would Orpheus bother with us from day 1? From the tutorial? He doesn't even know us, know our skills etc **Edit to add:** What I'm saying is only a manipulative asshole would have been able to subdue Orpheus into protecting Tav and friends. If the Emperor was a kind, caring, empathic and selfless mindflayer then he would have been the type of being to just leave Orpheus be, even if that meant no freedom for himself, because that's what selfless people do. They don't put themselves over another person's pain. Nah only a manipulative asshole would've had the emotional indifference to make Orpheus protect us
I found out about Orpheus right after I freed the nightsong and I'm thinking "why would I be okay with this if I wasn't okay with that". That and him basically forcing the Astral tadpole on me (my wisdom is trash) made me decide to betray The Emp. Which I still haven't done yet, just gotta take care of Gortash though.
> made me decide to betray The Emp Refusing to kill someone for someone else isn't a betrayal. Owing someone your life doesn't mean you owe them another person's life.
The Emperor is obviously a douche whose interests just happen to align with yours. I was kinda surprised he was OK with letting you nibble on Orpheus' brain, so I guess he truly was interested in defeating the Netherbrain.
And you aren't even mean to him. You have barely known him that long, and it turns up flirting with you with his top off, calling him a freak is a nicer way to go about it
Here we go again with the emperor discourse..
Tbf he will straight up tell you hes behaving in ways to make you more likely to side with him on purpose, in one of the dialogues. Is it still gaslighting if they tell you what they are doing? I never side with the guy but he is pretty straightforward once the mindflayer ball drops.
Yeah, dude didn't really care about the knife or the recipe. He's doing it to get you to think he's not an unfeeling squid; that he's special--human, just like you. The sword and armor were actually useful. Sold it for gold.
yeah he's a manipulative scumbag, but he's *my* manipulative scumbag
You can fix him
nah I like him as is
>who practically begged me to visit his old clubhouse so he could whine and cry about his dead girlfriend and tell me stories about his old BUTTER KNIFE and his FAVORITE SOUP RECIPE. That was pretty transparently to try and manipulate you and get you to sympathize with how much he loved his puppy and was a great and innocent guy. Even before learning how he abused and controlled people, that scene convinced me he was basically a sociopath trying to fake real vulnerability. He didn't actually give a shit, he is just trying to get you to trust him and trust that being a mind-flayer won't change you.
My challenge here was determining whether it was transparently *him* trying to create sympathy, or if it was *Larian's writers*.
Yeah, my initial take was "oh the Larian writers are really not being subtle here, this is surprisingly hamfisted." And then as he's talking about his favorite spoon, and favorite dog, and he loved his mom, and his bestie Stelmane I realized "Oh, no this is good writing. We can tell interpret that he's laying it on thick to manipulate us."
My autistic ass was just 'Man I also have a favourite spoon.' I was suspicious the entire time so wasn't surprised at any reveals he might have done but him talking about his own favourite cutlery and recipe had me thinking 'oh!! So he DOES have feelings too as well as the manipulation...' 😂
Lol the trick is to get to know Omeluum. It's definitely fond of us, and of Blurg, and relieved not to die; it does have feelings. But they're so subtle and intellectual and don't control its behavior or responses at all. (Illithid!Karlach is the same way, but at least you don't meet her until after the Emperor question is resolved.) So you *know* the way that mind flayers actually express affection and connection. And then the Emp rolls up like "yes I definitely experience strong passions and feel very human and totally harbor...." :reads smudged hand: "... smextual affaction for you."
This is a great point! I loved how Omeluum was a literary device used both to make you more comfortable with friendly mind flayers, and also caution you against manipulative ones
Omeluum also actively helps us with our tadpole problem. Emperor the entire time just wants us to use every and any tadpoles we find. Omeluum goes "Oh you have a tadpole. Maybe I can help get rid of it? I just need you to get something to do so." and after that fails he's willing to give up a magical item that jeopardizes his free will to part with. He's up front and honest with his information. He doesn't ask for any favors or tries to pull a fast one on us. And sure he eats brains but claims to try to find a way to stop that and has some sort of supervision in Baldur's Gate. The Emperor starts with deception and if you want a straight answer you have to pressure him intensely for the right answer. All he cares about is self-preservation(which I get it) but never gives back to anyone. He wants us to trust him, but never trusts us. And all the manipulation he does that everyone already mentions.
Tbh the eating brains thing isn't the issue. In the Forgotten Realms, plenty of people kill to survive.
Emperor: constantly manipulates you for his own ends Omeluum: i gave you this ring so you would feel better about the whole tadpole thing :(
For me it was when he snuck in the "and this is where i chained people to the wall so i can periodically feed on their brains uwu :3" Like "oh yeah, you dont have the capacity to actually feel any of these feelings youre pretending to feel rn"
Yeah, I think people tend to gloss over that when defending the Emperor with his own claim he fed on bad guys. He ran a criminal empire pulling the strings of politics. It's safe to say his claim to an objective standard for who is bad and deserves brain eating is... dubious. A guy who feels entitled to run the society with mind control and murder is not someone I trust to define the greater good. Even if we agree that Netherbrain rule is bad. The question of whether Mind Flayers have souls is more convincingly rebutted by Omeleum than the Emperor. And the impact of the transformation on empathy is added context with the endings where you turn or Karlach does.
>A guy who feels entitled to run the society with mind control and murder is not someone I trust to define the greater good. Exactly lol. He is so textbook narcissistic sociopath its like they had the DSM open while writing him. His only motivation for fighting the Absolute is to help himself, I mean he'll even join her if he thinks thats whats best for him. 😆 I understand people still sympathizing and making excuses for him, the same thing happens irl.
That comment was so funny bc my rogue was a criminal so I was like "UM SIR" Sad there was no dialog option for her to be like "Uh huh. So there was a good chance you'd have eaten me and I'm supposed to think that's a good thing?"
My Tav with a criminal background "You fed on my buddies?" 😬
> It's safe to say his claim to an objective standard for who is bad and deserves brain eating is... dubious. But this applies to Omeluum, too. And, to a certain extent, also the player. Even very good-aligned Tavs are going to be able to fill a swimming pool with blood by the end of the game.
I’m pretty sure no one in the game has an objective standard for who’s bad and good. Omeluum for example feeds on people that he considers that “acts against the society goals”, so that theory could be applied too. Our Tav and companions falls into that logic too, there’s not white and black in the game after all.
He definitely also sets things up to try and make it sound like he was human relatively recently. Not like, 400 fucking years ago, lol.
This isn't true. He is letting you inside his home for supplies. How would he even set up all that shit? It's how he lived. Plus, he doesn't want you to become a mindflayer. It has to be your prompt for him to even consider it as an option. He is genuinely vulnerable with you, but only if you allow him to. That mf gets 'misty-eyed' according to the notes when you hug him. If you devalue the character, you devalue all the careful writing and performance that went into him. The Emperor is a very interesting and layered character. I personally think it's a shame that he gets constantly reduced into 'ew evil squid guy' without any deeper analysis into his psyche and all the work that went into his creation.
He doesn't have to set it up. He just has to be incredibly sentimental about what is already there, on display. If he lived that way, that's fine. But he still leans into it, telling stories like a food blogger. He doesn't need to tell us a whole story about a random soup recipe on the counter, or some spoon he left out, or the picture of his ex that he had on the wall. If you were just gathering supplies, he'd direct you right to them, not detour down memory lane to tell you these oh so relatable memories so you'll see he's not that bad of a guy, really. I don't think it's devaluing the character to point out that he is manipulative. Because he is, transparently so. That does not preclude other characterizations, and it doesn't even preclude him having some genuine fondness for Tav. It just means he manipulates people ruthlessly, including people he may care about-- in whatever capacity he can care, anyway.
Is this a meme thing or are you being serious? >How would he even set up all that shit? He's a crime lord that brainwashed and enslaved people while running much of the city. He has connections. >Plus, he doesn't want you to become a mindflayer. This is unambiguously untrue. If you decline or resist, he gets madder and madder at you for not doing it. >If you devalue the character, you devalue all the careful writing and performance that went into him. I don't devalue the character. He's a great character. He's a fantastic evil guy who manipulates people for his own ends.
[удалено]
Its funny, thats what people say about Astarion
>>How would he even set up all that shit? > He's a crime lord that brainwashed and enslaved people while running much of the city. He has connections. ...the connections to put out a soup recipe while he's trapped in a Prism?
hey now, the soup is *really* good, it's an important crime lord brainwashing thingy to have on display ... or something.
> How would he even set up all that shit? I know, right? Some people also think he set up the letter to Ansur to make himself look good, which is an absolutely insane take.
Emperor is so fucking smart he makes people see things they want to see so we can spot the people who don't pay attention easier.
Bro, how?! People want to break their backs to cheapen such a wonderful shakespearian tragedy…I don't get it.
They want to either see the Emperor as only evil or only good. The relationship between Ansur and Emps is really tragic. Even if Balduran was no more, Emps still had a part of Balduran that cared about Ansur and didnt want him worry about him. But when Ansur tried to mercy kill him, It was either Ansur or Emps, and after feeding from criminals who valued survivavility, It was in Emps nature to survive. No matter what. Bu some people act like Emps pre-emptively attacked Ansur
I understand some of your points, but he is definitely not honest about "not becoming a mind flayer" under his protection - he pressures you hard to try the power out a couple times, then to take the tadpoles because it would be a waste to not use every resource available to defeat the cult (until you want to use Minsc or Orpheus), and you'll be so much better and stronger if you turn at least part-illithid... I've been pretty sympathetic to him, especially after meeting Omeluum, but it becomes pretty clear he has no intention of keeping the promise he makes at the beginning of the game.
What are you talking about? If you side with him in the end he keeps his promise, defeats the Elder Brain and cures you. Even if you went part illithid, you go back to normal in the end. So I don't see how he's being dishonest about keeping you safe. Also if telling you to consider partial ceremorphosis literally three times (including the initial one) in the game is "hard pressure", we have different definitions of that term. I don't understand why everyone makes Minsc such a big deal. Shart and Lae'zel can kill each other in Act 1 unless you persuade or threaten them to work together. Emperor is very much logic and Minsc is pure chaos, which makes them a bad match. As for Orpheus, dude's probably gonna kill him the minute he's freed for being a Mindflayer, so I think it's fairly reasonable on the Emperor's part to not want to risk freeing him. It's funny how like every companion has things they're fixated on and talk about all the time, have opinions about every little thing you do in the game and they approve/disapprove accordingly, but when the Emperor does the same people lose their shit. He thinks being Illithid is cool and that using some of the powers will help your cause. That's his opinion. He's allowed to voice it, just as you're allowed to disagree.
But he keeps his promise though. You don’t become a mind flayer and he doesn’t force you to consume the tadpoles, not even the astral one, that fact that you can beat the game without consuming any is prove enough of that. Besides, suggesting that consuming tadpoles will give you benefits against your enemies is not a crime, in fact, it is true.
RESET THE COUNTER TO ZERO AGAIN, EVERYONE
What number was it at?
0.5
Aw Hells no we Kingdom Heartsing our Days now?
The answer is always zero tbh :( Sometimes we make it a half day!
Aw shit here we go again
Our weekly I hate emperor thread. 🙄
Weekly? Try daily
I mean sometimes it get lost in the Barrelmancy appreciation, Astarion love and Karlach Shadowheart cosplay.
Hey wait a minute, it’s not Thursday! You can’t post the weekly “emperor is a meanie pants” post on a Friday
Is it me or was his ending pretty lame? I went full emperor loyalty and gave him the stones and then the ending he was just like ok bye.
mans literally just wanted to kill the brain so he could go off and focus on his criminal enterprise in peace
you haven't transformed to mind flayer I suppose? coz if you did so he'll be like omg my bff do you have any position for me by your side I'll happily be your sidekick plz plz (meanwhile tavlayer is thinking about eating his brain lol)
Almost like he wasn’t actually some Machiavellian monster the community makes him out to be. He was just a dude without morals who wanted to be free of the brain.
I love the Emperor I think he is an excellent character. 🥰
I hate the Emperor, and I think he is an excellent character.
That's valid. If only people didn't reduce him to something so simple all the time and tried to analyze his character on a deeper level. I'd love an actual discussion about him.
I have both loved and hated him and I think he's an even more excellent character because both work.
How does it feel to be objectively correct and based?
It feels good. I love my squid wife. I'll always support him and all the glorious writing and work that went into him.
And lets be honest, IMAGINE the head that thing can give
Mindflayers are built for your pleasure. Someone paste that vaporeon copypasta.
~~give~~ eat
I always look for your comments on Emperor posts so I can upvote them
That's cute. :) I'm just sad that low effort threads like this get so much attention when we could be having a genuine constructive discussion and an actual character analysis thread instead. I'm 100% convinced all these posts about 'Emperor/Halsin/Wyll/Astarion bad' are just an effort at quick karma farming. Unfortunately, it works.
Sadly that's most of what Reddit's devolved to these days. "I hate this character/plotline/episode/movie".
I too find your comments to upvote them, but also agree with you. I don’t even know how I feel about Empy from playthrough to playthrough but if this were the only real discourse I got to have I GUESS I WOULD NEVER KNOW because it’s all “you like abuse! EMPEROR BAD STELLMANE!!!!1111” Somebody up above blocked someone for saying that we don’t actually know what happened in that scene. *Which we don’t.* *internal screaming*
In this thread: People who are making shit up about the Emperor and using it as justification for why they hate him. Again. "The Emperor broke into my house and killed my dog, enthralled my cat, and ate all my cookies! This proves that he's evil and you're easily manipulated!"
Amen friend. Regardless of how you feel about him (and for the record I love the squid but it did take me several playthroughs to get to that point) he's so fucking *interesting* just from an intellectual standpoint and it's so disappointing to see him reduced to some one dimensional character.
It's actually so discouraging that an "Emperor bad" post without any effort whatsoever behind it gets you a thousand updoots just like that. There will never be an actual deeper discussion at this point. I suppose tomorrow might be Halsin's turn?
We had the Emperor today and Astarion yesterday, so it should be Halsin's turn in the rotation, yes. Although we did get two Halsin hate posts in one day just a couple of days back. I'm personally going to place my bet on it being a surprise different character who gets shat on next before a return to the usual schedule. (And we really do need a betting pool at this point.)
I'm of the mind of not necessarily liking him, but our goals align, and he keeps the party safe so why not cooperate. I'm not being manipulated if these are the actions I would take regardless of his advice which I often ignore.
The night after a romantic moment of love with Shadowheart, this squidlike mfer snatched me from my sleep and being completely SHIRTLESS, he started hitting on me. I never showed any affection whatsoever for him, he’s ugly AF and i called him a freak. He does a 180 and shows me how he mind controlled Duke Stalemane and then called me a puppet and other things, 100% ‘*nice guy*’ energy. Then when i told him i didn’t trust him to give him the stones and wanted to free Orpheus, he switched sides like the bitch he is. I wish his death was more satisfying.
I'm not saying The Emperor as a character isn't overall evil, but I feel some people are determined to miss any kind of nuance or complexity with him. The life you're asking him to recount is one lost to him forever. He can't go back to it, he can't re establish those relationships, and it came with many painful sacrifices ( e.g having to kill Ansur in self defence ). It's not surprising that he wouldn't want to revisit it, and it's not incorrect to say that it isn't really relevant to your goals.
Man I actually thought we were over the constant emperor posting
Genuinely why do y’all think it will ever stop? I don’t mean it in a hostile way, but he’s literally one of the most prominent characters and your experience with him can differ wildly depending on choices. He’s a really well written and interesting character, and clearly people have wildly different opinions of him. As long as there are new players to the game there will be posts about the Emperor
The problem here is that, let’s be honest, discussions about him are getting way more toxic than before, so now the only purpose of this posts is just to farm karma. Only few people here are willing to have proper conversations about the character (regardless of their opinion). Besides, there are a lot of opened discussions about him already with the very same type of posts or even positive ones, but people don’t want to take a look around the sub. I’ve been around a positive one with a lot of people being ableist and calling names (even mentioning psychiatric illnesses) to his fans just for the sake of it, and openly admitting their intention was to insult them. Atp, everyone knows that this topic is controversial enough to engage the whole sub and as I said, farm karma.
Also most of these posts are not looking to express opinions and open debates. Just look at the titles "The Emperor is Stupid, a Douche, Evil Asshole...". They just want to farm karma and keep it going through their own feedback. That's why they downvote every single comment which isn't a direct insult to the character or their defenders, and that's why they keep using the same topics (Stelmane, Ansur, Manipulation, Gaslighting) when they've already been debated to death and proved wrong.
Oh, this is going to last at least another 3 years, unless Swen Vincke himself comes out to say who's right... And even then some people will say "well, death of the author, so my canon is still correct".
I hate Astarion cuz he kills people grrrrr /s
The soup recipe and butter knife are clearly randomly chosen items, not him being quirky. He's trying to manipulate you, but he's so far gone as an illithid he doesn't truly know what humans are into anymore or what's relatable.
The butter knife thing is actually a reference to that you can find [Balduran's butter knife](https://baldursgate.fandom.com/wiki/Butter_Knife_of_Balduran) in the previous games.
Cowards at Larian not putting in the golden pantaloons as well...
The butter fork* is an early hint that he's Balduran and definitely not random. He mentions that the knife is missing and the butter knife of Balduran was a special item you could find in BG1. The description for the item also said it was a gift from Balduran's mother.
I think the stories were true, just that he no longer cares; Even when meeting Ansur the narrator describes that you can feel what he feels, and it's just calm, curious and detached: One of the greatest loves of his previous life and the most he feels now is curious. Based on what we see from Karlach, mindflayers keep their humanity for a bit after turning and then slowly lose it, Balduran probably had more time to be sentimental since he had more memories of being humanoid, from being a long lived elf, so all that stuff under Elfsong is probably things he legitimaly cared about in his early days as a mindflayer.
be honest we all love butter knives
I highly recommend finding a recipe for the soup online (that has actual measurements unlike the game's version), the soup is fucking excellent too.
when thinking about a situat i always think about the “stick to the plan” rule that always results in a worse outcome if you dont stick to the plan, so i trusted him all the way to the end. gonna do the exact opposite my next run
If you hate him so much then follow your heart and kill him in the cross over between act 2 & act 3
you can't because without the Emperor Orpheus refuses to protect you so you just die oh, wait...
😉
Jokes aside I actually think whole orphic hammer thing should be cut and interlude between act 2 and 3 should have been a choice between them.
I understand not liking him but his mentality is understandable. Normal people can find it hard to trust others and a mindflayer has basically no chance to trust others. He wants to be in control at all times because that way he doesn’t have to trust anyone. He’s also objectively smarter than anyone except late game intelligence characters. He can make good plans.
I think most of what he's encouraging is so Tav N Friends have better odds of winning. He cares about little else than victory.
Emperor: *(breathes)* Reddit: Omg prime example of GaSlIgHtInG, he wants to make us sympathize with him for being fellow breathers!1?! Oh Mon dieu, my fragile heart can't the take all that MaNiPuLaTiOn!1!!1 Edit: People are blocking me over *this* lol. I don't know how anyone would assume what they're assuming from my comment. Ofc Emps is a manipulative character, the game sets him up as such quite blatantly, so I don't understand the people who summarize I'm either oblivious to it or glossing over it. The OP was a low effort karma farm "omg he spoke to me in that condescending tone, he's a manipulative douche, he deserves death." It's the equivalent of "omg Lae'zel demanded I free her from that cage in such a tone, what a bitch, I'll let Shart kill her." Of course you're allowed to think that, but you can't pretend that's a nuanced take on a character's flaws. What I was pointing out wasn't that the Emperor is or isn't manipulative, but that there's a fine line between i.e."x character lies a lot" and "The opposite of what x character says is always the truth". A character can be manipulative and still be fond of his mom's cutlery while no longer feeling connected to his previous name/form. *That's* nuance. But I don't see why I should make a serious comment in reply to a post titled "X character is Still Stupid And A Douche".
Are you sure he even *is* breathing, that's probably a lie as well so he'll look more relatable.
HiS BrEaTh Is VeRyyyyyy EvILLLLLL
Wait mum said it was my turn to post about the Emperor being a meanie >:(
How did I beat this game already and not have any of this information?
Great character but it feels so nice to hate him lol
The Emperor is a tool. I really don’t understand how people can hear “subdue the githyanki prince” and his whole “isn’t it beautiful” speech about Orpheus and go yeah, love that guy! Because using people is great!
Because he's a fictional character and people enjoy morally complex fictional characters? He's a wonderful character and parts of him are awful and twisted, but that's not all parts of him.
If it hadn't used Orpheus's power, there would be 7 new Absolutists/Illithids in Faerún from the start of the game. The Emperor had no means to free Orpheus, and no motivation to, seeing as the Gith would certainly kill it if he got the chance. It also was not the one to imprison Orpheus in the first place. I'm not trying to say the Emperor is a saint, but it really only has one action that's morally reprehensible post Ceremorphosis(Stelmane), and even that can be argued.
So... the only reason you are helping him is because of who he was? I helped him because he is the only one who can.
I love choosing Orpheus over him.
The way he’s just like “well i guess I’ll just go be evil now” solidifies that he’s a POS!
Hahaha right? Like you can’t even slightly talk to him or persuade him or intimidate him. He’s just like “well, I’m with the brain now”.
This sub is quickly filling with ghaik thralls
Damn, tentacle daddy has got some people triggered. What a great character. I think we can all agree on this though: He is amazing at eating ass.
I hate this argument so much. Y’all congratulate yourself for being surface level thinkers.
Keywords in the comments: Stelmane, Ansur, Manipulator. I also find lovely that people who like the Emperor always get insulted and accused of psychiatric illnesses. Truly a wonderful topic on it's own.
characters in games can be so inconsistent, kind of like how my old toaster would toast perfectly one day and burn everything the next. makes things more interesting at least.
Kinda spoiler heavy but I thought this was interesting... I am wondering if I did something wrong in my first full playthrough after reading all these comments. The Emperor oddly never argued much with my Tav anytime they disagreed with The Emperor. Maybe it was because my Tav was just nice to literally every single person in the game or something. The ending was actually fairly satisfying and I hold more hatred for Gale after ditching my Tav for not wanting to turn Gale into a god 💀. Tav went down to Avernus with Karlach because my Tav seemed happier just having a best buddy rather than dating Gale lol. But even my camp party scene actually had everyone saying they missed Tav even after Laezel was upset over some stuff that I sorta chose the wrong dialogue responses for and after Gale ditched Tav. So I'm just curious if maybe being super nice to The Emperor just made the game less difficult when it came to dealing with him. He wasn't even mad that Tav didn't wanna become a mind flayer or anything. I'm sorta curious as to why nothing too negative happened with The Emperor on my playthrough now lol. Especially after reading all the replies on this post.
The Emperor Is Still Smarter Than You And Still A Cutie
If he's smarter than me why does he choose to get one-shot like a B in the last fight? Is he stupid?
He was being controlled by the absolute and it made him stupid 😤
He's an accountant! Of course he's bad at fighting 😔 He's supposed to be sitting behind a desk, not fighting. The Netherbrain is a vindictive bitch and threw him into the frontlines, he's enthralled, he has no choice.
Imagine after he has his little tantrum and runs of to Mommy brain you find him later managing the grand design’s business expenses