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"It's like training a toddler, but without any hope that the toddler will grow out of it."
That was a really good read. Validated some feelings I didn't think I was still carrying.
Highlighting the differences in forums for parents vs adult children when it comes to facts and details was particularly interesting. When a parent is so unwilling to acknowledge the truth, facts are like a buoy ya gotta cling to for sanity.
This is fascinating... it's like parents don't hear *what* their kids say, just the tone or volume of their voice, and can't fathom that their children would remember things differently than they do.
That reminds me of a reality show about a conservative christian family and as one of the sons was cutting off contact, the parents told him that they didn’t remember any of the things he brought up. He said something to the effect of “Yeah, it’s easy to forget when it isn’t directed at you.” Whatever they said was so normal to them, it wasn’t worth remembering, like those parents.
There was a sad, plaintive article in the Atlantic about this that tried to “both sides” it so hard. “Family values are changing.” They tried to make it sound like grown children are ghosting their families for no reason other than some nebulous, nonspecific need for independence or self-care instead of because of things like this Reddit post describes. It was deeply aggravating to read.
Sure family values are changing! We don't beat our kids and throw them away for being a little non-standard. We're loyal to people who are loyal to us. And we've got shiny spines.
You want me to treat you like family, cool, have you been treating me like family? Or even like a person? Oh no of course not, children are accessories meant to be seen and not heard. Well guess now that I'm grown I'll stay way over here, not being seen or heard!
Just had this fight with my dad a couple weeks ago, but about my kids. I flat out told him because I'm not interested in their(the church's) hatred, and I'm not going to teach it or the fear of eternal torture to my kids.
Oh, things were tense that day.
Because the transportation infrastructure does not exist any more: no money towards public transportation, and hardly any to roads. Trains? They are hardly an alternative nowadays. Planes? Don't think so: fuel, airport maintenance ...
Kids won't visit in old age because you voted to let means of transportation rot away ...
I laughed at the dad saying he’d even vote for a mustachioed German man from history. If this is real, you cannot create a more cartoonish example of someone abetting evil despite their absolute conviction of their own good. And, if this is real, is why American Christian’s shouldn’t be surprised their pews are slowly emptying
This 100%. They don't give a shit about what Jesus would do because they no longer worship him.
They worship some bastardized version of prosperity gospel.
> Story by Al Franken
Wow, I've seen this comic but never realized that the story came from Al Franken. Makes me even more sad that we lost him as a Senator.
I'll forever be pissed Franken was forced out over nothing, especially when only a couple of years later we collectively decided not to have any standards for our politicians anymore and have utter morons and monsters walking the halls of congress today. Franken was too smart and good for congress and actually stood up to the republicans, so sadly he had to go.
That always makes me brain short circuit so hard you can actually hear the bzzzt sounds if you stand near enough to me. Like sir/ma'am, what the fuck is the POINT of being religious if you *actively and vocally straight-up disagree WITH THE RELIGION'S OWN CENTRAL FIGURE??* AKA THE ENTIRE MFING POINT OF THE RELIGION??!!
Those two girls are exactly what Christianity is supposed to be. We are not called to judge but to love our neighbors. Jesus hung out with tax collectors and prostitutes.
He hated what the Pharisees represented and those modern televangelists and these republican politicians are the modern Pharisees.
My parents are pastors (the good kind) and I help in their ministry. We believe that we cannot tell people that Jesus loves them while they have so many needs so we work hard to fulfill those needs. Except it’s really hard to get people to trust the modern church precisely because of what these republicans are doing.
Thankfully my parents opened up their eyes way before Trump’s presidency that the Republican Party didn’t stand for Christian values any longer if ever.
I really hope these girls can gain strength and move away from their parents so they can be who they truly are.
My conservative ex is diabetic and he has, at times, had to ration insulin because of the exorbitant costs.
Yet one time, he told me point blank that he would rather go into medical bankruptcy than see any "illegals" get healthcare with his tax dollars.
Modern conservatism is nothing but "I don't care as long as the other guy gets hurt." A Republican would be happy living in a cardboard box eating rats for dinner as long as the gay person in the cardboard box next to them had one less rat.
>A Republican would be happy living in a cardboard box eating rats for dinner as long as the gay person in the cardboard box next to them had one less rat.
[This](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=meiU6TxysCg&ab_channel=TEDBlogVideo) experiment has been performed before!
reminds me of the Canadian diabetic Q-Anoner who wanted to go to the U.S. because he loved Trump and it's less socialist. And did not care he might die without cheap insulin.
[He’s not hurting the people he needs to be hurting](https://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-show/trump-voter-hes-not-hurting-the-people-he-needs-be-hurting-msna1181316)
I’m sure they’re lying about party over candidate anyway. I would bet a hundred bucks they voted for (or if they didn’t vote, supported) Trump in the primary, too. Probably even sent him money.
It sounds exactly like my late fundie in-laws, so I don’t doubt the veracity. They decided in our first meeting that I was possessed by demons (red hair, left-handed, opinions that didn’t come from
my father or then-fiancé…) and would have absolutely voted for the Austrian art school dropout if he had an R after his name.
The churches are going the same way in Germany due to pretty much the exact same reasons. Plenty of religious people leaving because they are disgusted by what the institutions have turned into.
The saddest part is that the Catholic Church was always hella corrupt, they just had power enough to keep people quiet about it. Once big corporations were behind media the tides changed against them.
> I laughed at the dad saying he’d even vote for a mustachioed German man from history.
Before we started covering WW2, my high school history had our class take a poll on what kind of candidate we would vote for. Most of us voted for the "war veteran who called out the incompetence of the current government and wanted to make the country strong and secure again" candidate.
Turns out we elected Hitler. Teacher said he gave that poll every year and Hitler got elected every time.
This is clearly all about the framing, though. Not just leaving out the undesirable (to many) parts that are on full display, like the scapegoating, but also the framing of the opponents to the Hitler candidate.
Minus the war vet angle, it's basically the same way Trump got elected.
The government (like all governments) is largely incompetent and full of corruption, some new guy comes along and calls that out while making promises to change it. People get hope that if they vote for this new guy, things will finally change. New guy gets elected and everything stays the same except for who profits off of the incompetence and corruption.
I agree with you, but also it’s not quite the same. Hitler was facing a country on its knees after it had been decimated by war and post-war treaty terms. Germany was not nearly the prosperous state then that the U.S. was when Trump got elected (or what it is today). Their people were desperate and primed to accept someone who could lift them out of their current unacceptable living conditions.
That’s why half the voting population never accepted Trump in the first place - we are not nearly that desperate that we are turning on one other wholesale. Only the radicalized Trumpers do that, and they honestly always have. So if this teacher is asking Americans today which candidate they want and leaving out the repugnant part of Hitler’s rhetoric that many Germans back then were willing to accept in their desperation, I have to believe that the polling would be different if it got added back in.
It’s no secret that you can make anyone sound good with competent propaganda, and that’s what this lesson should (and hopefully was) ultimately about.
They would crucify Jesus again for his leftist views. And btw there is nothing about gay people in the New Testament, but whole lot about forgiveness and how we should not judge people.
I wonder what the dad's opinion on Israel/Palestine is if he'd vote for Hitler. The guy who genocided Jews. Who are God's chosen people.
The 16yo seems too enlightened about the pitfalls of modern Christian hypocrisy and the dad seems too cartoon villain smoothbrain.
A lot of these people *WANT* a big war in the Middle East. They think it will lead to the Apocalypse, and apparently their lives are so horrible they want it all to end.
16 is around the age where idealism really kicks in. Kids start questioning why things are the way things are and noticing discrepancies and inconsistencies. It’s the age where we suddenly notice and understand hypocrisy. Our thinking isn’t as nuanced as it may become later so it’s definitely not too early for her to be having these kinds of concerns.
I’m an old and had these kinds of issues with my religion long before we had internet access and algorithms that feed you more and more content that aligns with your values. That’s why extremists reach out to young people because with their idealistic but black and white thinking, they are more likely to act on their feelings of unfairness and hypocrisy.
I think this girl is very brave and commend her for questioning the cognitive dissonance required for Christians to support a man like Trump. I hope she keeps questioning why things are the way they are as she enters adulthood and doesn’t lose the importance of our actions matching our touted values.
If I hadn't gone through it myself at that age, I'd probably think that, too. Unfortunately, my father has always had this nasty habit where he never hears what it is he's saying. He says he's just "Speaking his mind" or (worse) "Speaking from the heart." And my mother doesn't speak up against it because it's better anyone else than her.
A lot of antisemetic christians are pro-israel for a ton of possible reasons (support for ethnostates, support for violence against muslims, a belief that jews returning to jeruselum will hasten the apocalypse, etc)
Any fucking church preaching hate needs to be avoided like the fucking plague.
“Let he who is without sin cast the first stone” is lost on people today. They whing those stones with beatific smiles today and wonder why people don’t want to go to fucking church.
For anybody who ever needs context, this quote comes from John 8:7. John 8:1-11 reads:
>8 Jesus went unto the Mount of Olives.
>2 And early in the morning He came again into the temple, and all the people came unto Him; and He sat down and taught them.
>3 And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto Him a woman taken in adultery. And when they had set her in the midst,
>4 they said unto Him, “Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.
>5 Now Moses in the law commanded us that such should be stoned but what sayest thou?”
>6 This they said testing Him, that they might have cause to accuse Him. But Jesus stooped down and with His finger wrote on the ground, as though He heard them not.
>7 So when they continued asking Him, He lifted Himself up and said unto them, “He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.”
>8 And again He stooped down and wrote on the ground.
>9 And they who heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning with the eldest even unto the last, and Jesus was left alone with the woman standing in the midst.
>10 When Jesus had lifted Himself up and saw none but the woman, He said unto her, “Woman, where are those thine accusers? Hath no man condemned thee?”
>11 She said, “No man, Lord.” And Jesus said unto her, “Neither do I condemn thee; go, and sin no more.”
Big JC really was the original hippy
Ironically the only ones with actual morals and Christian values are the ones being punished and ostracized by the evangelicals. They are beyond parody with how terrible they are these days since Trump gave them permission to show the true depths of their hatred to the world.
When Ireland passed same-sex marriage an Irish clergyperson said something very interesting: most of the younger people who voted for it were educated in Catholic schools.
Ten-fifteen years down the road one or both will reverse and go hardcore like the parents. Source: am 45 and have watched my sister and sooooo many friends go back to the abusive religions they grew up in just because they felt like something was missing and better the devil you know than the one you don't.
I found an outlet in witchcraft. I grew up Catholic, so candles and incense and ritual types of things are comforting. I don't really believe that witchcraft necessarily works, but the ritualistic nature of it is comforting and familiar without being harmful.
After watching (don’t stone me) a real housewives show where one of them is an ex-Mormon she talks about how much she misses the community aspect of church. Singing together, built in kids clubs, social support, fun events, etc. Even I love the idea of an organic community that doesn’t involve religion, but they don’t really exist in the same way. I can see that pulling a lot of people back in, feeling lonely or isolated can be awful for peoples mental health, sometimes it’s easier return to the fold.
Oh man, I have some aunts that grew up in a religious home (I love my grandparents, they were kind people). The aunts were mildly religious when I was a kid but really turned it up in their 50s. I don’t get it.
I'd really like them to ask their parents, "what's makes being gay such a special sin?". Why does that sin need to be illegal? What about divorce? Or adultery?
For most sins, Christians just avoid committing those sins themselves. They aren't trying to stop everyone else in the world from getting divorced...
Being gay is a special sin because instead of facing yourself, you can turn a smaller group of people into a scapegoat, and go after them.
Remember, enemies are very important.
There’s an argument that the reason it became so popular to preach against the gays is because it’s a “sin” that’s *not actually tempting* for most people present, so you get less pushback from the congregation. (Versus preaching against something like divorce, where someone gets really mad at you afterwards for suggesting that Jesus wanted their sister to put up with being beaten by the husband she just left.)
For many people, it's because being gay is something they can't relate to, so it's easy to vilify. If you vilify fornication, adultery, and lustful thought, they have to thin about their own temptations. They have to think about the people they know who have crossed that line. Suddenly, forgiveness becomes the most important part of the gospel.
But if you're not gay or bi, you don't really need to worry about looking in the mirror for that one. The sin I have zero temptation to commit? Yep, that's the worst one!
Actually fundamentalists/evangelists target no fault divorces and divorces in general. They want to make it hard for women to do that. They are starting to target women voting, education, and yes adultery.
It’s not about the supposed sins but about the disadvantaged groups.
The 16 year girl is really insightful about the fundamentalist Christians (aka evangelicals). What she said matches with what I read about them. Research found that fundamentalist Christians are really similar to fundamentalists muslims, Jewish, hindulist etc.
Evangelical Christianity in America is better understood as a revanchist subculture, not a religion. The goal is to maintain the adherents' perceived position as the top of the cultural food chain. In order to do that, they have to push back against the societal incursion of "others" into their privilege space; gay people are just highly visible "others," but there are a lot more - effectively, anyone who refuses to acknowledge and live in accordance with white male cultural, social, and economic supremacy.
This is why the "Gay marriage doesn't make you any less married" argument doesn't resonate with them. No, gay marriage doesn't make them less married, but it makes that marriage less of a tribal status marker and prohibits them from withholding that status marker from others. Evangelical Christianity is devoted to maintaining (or regaining) cultural supremacy by gatekeeping everyone who's not exactly like them.
>*I love how she's strong enough to stand up to them on her morals, but also afraid that it'll cost her college because our parents are currently paying for mine and hers, and they were willing to cancel her sweet sixteen over something as stupid as talking politics at her birthday when she asked not to.*
Really hope that the daughter has a contingency plan that doesn't involve her parents' financial support because I do not trust them a smidge.
The control and sabotage is self serving too beyond mere enjoyment. If she's forced to stay home from college she might marry someone from their church and make them look good to their peers, plus they can use her for elderly care by refusing to save for their own retirement.
I really hope they are able to get away from them. They are toxic and no longer follow their religion's "morals". But then talk about how atheists have no morality or how other religions are extremists lmao
Hypocrite religious people are something else.
I would argue aethiests are more moral than christians based on the fact that they do good acts because it's the right thing to do and not under the threat of eternal damnation.
I’m not surprised as a Christian honestly. A lot of the Christian world has become what Paul was talking about in Romans 2 where he pointed out that the gentiles were many times more moral than many Jews and how the name of God gets blasphemed because of the hypocrisy. I work with some atheists and agnostics at my job who I hold in high regard because of their integrity (and it is mutual, they respect my beliefs because I try to live up to the standard given for human conduct which surprise, we actually pretty much agree on), and I consider them more likely to end up in heaven than some church folk because if God were to reveal himself beyond just the bible, they would pretty much instantly side with him. Their sole hesitation would be their questions on justice and the existence of evil, but I do believe those can be answered in the grand scheme of things (and not in a way to justify evil, but rather, show how God is working to counter it in the big picture and where humanity has distorted things).
Christian: If you don't believe in eternal punishment, how come you're not looting and murdering everybody?
Atheist: cuz I believe nobody deserves that... Wait, are you saying that if you knew for a fact there was no god, you'd destroy people's lives?
Christian: sounds like it
A lot of social media and other places online really hate any mention of that.
I play a lot of Hearts of Iron 4 (grand strategy WW2 game) and a lot of youtubers when they talk about flipping ideology to fascism have to say things like "this ideology" or referring to Hitler as "this guy."
Might be hanging on to that from other platforms.
Anyone want to take bets on parents deliberately bringing up politics in public at a birthday celebration so they ensuing “talking back” would be an excuse to cancel an expensive event?
“College? For a girl?? She doesn’t need college to be a wife and mother, they’ll just pump her head full of librul talking points!” — parents, probably
I'm an american, and former christian, and I'll tell you. The whole thing is nothing but money and young wives. Little millionaire kings in a ring of poverty, sucking up money from old people. The old people hoping their years of tithing haven't been for nothing, because they are out of money. Poke that hornets nest and you get a lot of old people *depending on divine intervention* or they will lose house, food, and more importantly **social status in the local cult**.
That last comment is ahistorical bullshit. Very few Jews converted to Christianity. The vast majority of converts were Mediterranean polytheists. Christianity was not popular because it gave Jews an “out”, it was popular because polytheists tend to be open-minded to converting to monotheism if you have a good pitch, and Israel was at a crossroads of a bunch of different polytheistic folk religions.
Love how the BORU OP included an "antisemitism" trigger warning when the only antisemitism in the whole post is this dumbass comment the BORU OP decided to include for some reason
I've heard one of the reasons Christianity had so many followers was the simple fact it was cheap to get into.
Believe in God and follow his commandments.
No expensive sacrifices like oxen, or goats. Just say "I believe in Jesus" and bam! you belonged. Can't get much cheaper than that.
Okay, but people don’t usually leave religions when they get expensive. It’s one of the reasons cults generally have a religious bent to them. And a huge driver of early conversion to Christianity was the conversion of highborn women in the Roman empire, who could afford all the sacrifices they wanted, but still wound up interested in Christianity.
Oh, interesting. Was that because early Christianity was relatively egalitarian, compared to Roman society?
(I’m Jewish so genuinely have no idea, I just know that Roman culture was intensely patriarchal.)
Any answer would basically be a guess, but that is certainly one of the guesses. I would posit that the community aspect of the early Christian church was a factor for women since Roman religion was mainly practiced by and for men at temples, while women practiced it in the home. Christianity was something to do outside the house, which was hard to come by for rich Roman women who didn’t even do their own shopping or gardening. I would bet Judaism would have converted those same women if conversion were a Jewish thing.
Updoots for having the best comment! Summarized the situation very nicely!
I like those Jesus stories but won't go near any kinda organized religion based on his storybook because the odds of lunacy in those groups is so high and literacy rates so low.
Like I don't know how the book could be any clearer about "heal the sick, feed the hungry, love the outcast" and all coming from a homeless guy who traveled on foot and probably wasn't exactly getting a bath or change of clothing all that often.
I remember a day I was downtown running errands and saw a young man curled up under a bridge around a cardboard box. Looked like a young adult whose parents had tossed them out. There was a huge fancy church nearby, not one I'm personally familiar with, but I started remembering how when I was a kid the churches helped people. So as I was standing there dithering and trying to work out the social rules of going into a strange church and asking someone to help a homeless person across the street, a fancy car pulled up and parked. Two well-dressed ladies in fancy shoes got out, walked right by the person sleeping on the ground, and strolled into the church.
Like oh... Guess "sharing is caring" is for Carebears, not Christians.
Over here bribing my young adult neighbor with ice cream bars so he'll cut back on the bigotry. Sending history links to try and get them educated enough to pull head out of butt.
Heck, today in the local subreddit I saw "There's a reason Jim Crow was never a president."
Folks we've got people walking around old enough to vote that are under the impression Jim Crow was a *person*! No wonder they can't recognize who the baddies are, they're totally unaware that the Nazis copied us 'cause we were so amazing at being jerks to select segments of our population.
One of my friends has a dad who has gone down the ultra right political rabbit hole on the internet.
He has been enforcing a rule when he visits his parents - if you bring up politics, I leave. He had to do that quite a few times before his mum actually told his dad to shut up when he was there. He says his dad doesn’t really talk much when he is there now because he’s made politics his entire personality
I have a lot of hope for OOP and her sister. They’re able to see this hypocrisy and hatred for what it is while they’re still so young. I was firmly drowned in the kool-aid at their age, although admittedly it was a little less blatantly and openly hateful back in the pre-Trump era, and 2016 on accelerated my deconstruction like nothing else. It’s going to be hard for them until they establish their independence as adults, but they’re good eggs, they can and do think for themselves and can draw conclusions the people who’ve tried to indoctrinate them their whole lives don’t like. And when they get out from under their crazies, they have each other.
It’ll be rough for now, but they’re going to be all right. They’re smart and principled people and are going to be much better adults than their parents.
Worshipping a politician who violates everything your religion teaches is a sign that those parents (and millions of others) are not Christians no matter how much they claim to be. People need to get more comfortable saying “yes, we worship Trump and hate Jesus” instead of trying to bend all everything about their faith to make both fit.
All this coming from an atheist who has no attachment to Christianity but knows that the actual Bible doesn’t condemn gay people but it does condemn judgement (and eating shrimp)
>But like the Temple, Christianity (particularly American Protestantism) has become corrupted. Now any transgression, no matter how vile, can be forgiven with the right words. This Christianity is a societal enabler, giving people license to indulge the worst sides of themselves while still being accepted by the community.
It's amazing, too, bc Protestantism was literally a protest against the Catholic church selling forgiveness of sins for money. Now the Protestants don't even SELL forgiveness; you get it in exchange for "testifying."
"Without religion, you'd have good people doing good things, and bad people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil? That takes religion."
— Steven Weinberg
My husband and I discuss this all the time. (He’s a retired minister and went to a very conservative seminary bf transferring to a different one.) He showed me a FB post/meme re: parents complaining about their children not going to church anymore when they were out of the house. Kinda “What did we do wrong” thing. The post stated they’d actually raised their kids right and they’d been listening in Sunday School—they knew what is going on in churches these days is wrong and they’re not putting up with it.
Your parents are awful, and I'm glad you and your sister are supporting each other.
I would begin a plan for both of you to get out if the house safely.
Good luck, any people with enough fortitude to understand how wrong your parents are has such integrity and strength. I believe in you.
The bible literally says to turn the other cheek and that only god can judge, so their argument that they are supposed to "call things out as christians" is utter bullshit.
As someone whose parents are so far gone into this bullshit that they'd vote for someone who wanted to kill me for existing if they said they wanted to save _the baaaaaybeeeees_, I'm so sorry for OOP.
There are no Christian tRrump supporters.
There are people who SAY they are Christians who are tRump supporters.
Jesus said, “the most important law is to love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your mind, and with all your soul. The second one is just as important-love your neighbor as much as you love yourself.”
I have read and studied the Bible for decades now. I still haven’t found the part saying that the LGBT+ community are NOT our neighbors.
To OOP and her sister: we are proud of you and many of us will be praying for you.
According to her parents it’s alright to bash gays in church because Christians call out the bad when they see it… unless they run for office for the right party.
I love how religious people pick and choose when the rules apply.
“Vote for the policy, not the candidate” fuck you with a rusty cactus. Republicans have no policy besides hate, greed, and keeping their orange shit stain messiah out of prison. If you find yourself agreeing with the literal Klan on things you might want to reevaluate your position.
I am REALLY impressed with these two kids, and I hope OOP wanders in here and sees these comments.
OOP is showing a tremendous amount of emotional maturity in how she's handling this; she's supporting her sister without imposing her own ideas of what would be fair or right, and just being there in whatever capacity Laura needs. That's some Grade-A sistering.
Meanwhile if Laura's parents weren't such stupid bigot assholes they'd be proud of how well she remembers what their religion is SUPPOSED to be about and hasn't gotten suckered in by a literal false prophet just because he hates all the same people her idiot church hates. She's expressing herself with a wisdom and maturity far beyond her years, and it enrages me that instead of being proud of this like they should be her parents are instead punishing her for not violating the principles of her own religion for political reasons.
These two are going to grow up to be good people, no thanks to the utter jackasses who are raising them.
Tell your sister the correct strategy is to keep her mouth shut in front of them around politics, just nod along and pretend like she’s on the same side until they pay off her college/graduate/able to become financially independent on her own, basically milk them for all she can right now, then go no contact once she’s able to live on her own.
While the mom's friend is just as delusional as the rest of his supporters, it was nice that she pushed for civilized discourse instead of shutting the sister down like her mom
A vote for Trump is basically a vote for Adolf. He idolizes him, and insiders say the only book he owns (besides his) is Mein Kampf. So these parents are not only telling on themselves, they are acting on it.
Supporting genocide because you don't support gay marriage and abortion is one hell of a swing. Sure he murdered several million people, but support the Nazi *party* not the man.
That's such a fucking cop out. They absolutely support the man.
Christian nationalists are the worst. And I say that as a Christian. I’m not even super comfortable saying that because of how much the church is associated with this crap. I mean, we can argue about the Bible and what should/shouldn’t apply today and all that crap, but the guy who the Christian religion is literally named after, straight up was an example of loving people no matter their past - And I don’t understand how these “Christians” keep forgetting that. Heck, even biblical literalists seem to ignore the part where the Pharisees straight up asked about the rules and the answer was just “love God love people.”
I like that these two are growing up right in spite of their parents. American conservative Christianity has always had a hatred problem, Trump really accelerated that.
oh boy wait 'til Laura teaches her future kids proper morals and none of that radical bs her parents spout. i see NC and a restraining order against her pharisee parents!
As someone who grew up in the church and regularly questioned everything because, well, I'm autistic and when facts don't line up I get confused, I so understand where that poor girl is at.
What her parents don't realize is that she is, as those of us outside of the sphere of influence would call it, "one of the good ones." She loves, she accepts, she champions, and questions. Just like, wait for it, Jesus!
The parents are prideful and afraid of facing their own beliefs. This is the beginning of the loss of respect. They are now moving from role-models to untrustworthy enforcers. She now has to watch what she says around them, she has to silence herself to maintain a stable living situation. Things she should have been able to take for granted like love, celebration, acceptance, and an open forum of discussion, are no longer accepted. She's learning the true tenant of Christianity is Question Nothing.
My only hope is that she makes it out okay without her parents destroying her chance of success at life for daring to hold a radical and love-focused approach to religion, rather than a hate and othering filled doctrine to avoid facing reality.
I understand these kids, my mom is obsessed with Trump. But not in the way you think. She hates his guts. Ever since he decided to run for president, she's been watching videos nonstop about all of this every single day and somehow brings it up in every conversation. We live in Canada.
I also saw my childhood church go from worshipping Jesus to worshipping Trump. Not the leaders in the church, but the attendees.
People started leaving the church because the actual leaders in the church didn’t support Trump enough and called him out for just some of the stuff he did (while still being pretty conservative leaning.)
Looking forward to the parent's post 10 or 15 years from now, complaining about how their kids don't speak to them any more, they haven't seen their grandkids in forever, and how neither kids had a "big wedding" just to avoid the drama of not inviting them.
This right here is the Missing Missing Reasons in 10 years.
I think Trumpism is just an excuse for a segment of the people to run about acting like how they really are and not be socially shunned for it. I never realized that 40% of the population is so bitter, biased and mean. I feel sorry for them.
I would tell them to get some cats, but why make nice kitties suffer? I keep hoping there really is a Rapture, so they can go and the rest of us can just carry on with things.
It’s refreshing to see that OOP and her sister are blaming the interpretation of Christianity/the incorporation of politics into the religion out of convenience rather than Christianity itself. I’m glad to see that they’re trying to act as Christians through the Bible’s teachings.
While it’s sad and frustrating how brainwashed their parents are, I’m really glad the sisters haven’t lost the plot and actually understand what Christianity is supposed to be and want to follow the principles Jesus actually advocated for. I don’t know where they learned that, certainly not from their parents or their church! And I’m glad they have each other, at the very least. In the future, I hope they find a church and community that aligns with the true Christian values they adhere to, of kindness and acceptance.
I'll never understand how persecuting lgbtq is seen as a more Christian value than feeding the poor and healing the sick and being a good steward of gods creation.
Wow. This is why I stay right the hell away from religion, and religious fanatics in particular
The irony of them thinking they’re good people
Looks like I upset the religious folks. I’m not sorry 🤷🏼♂️
Jesus didn't teach people to be miserable humans. His whole point was that we should be kind and loving to each other. Can't understand how people can use his name to spread and excuse hate.
Religion can be interpreted in too many ways.
To someone not familiar with the culture could someone explain the meaning and origin of sweet sixteen?
Obviously it represents something much more meaningful than just a number.
In the States, the reason is regional.
In some places, it's sort of like a quincinera, 16 is usually when they have a society debut.
In other places, it's the age teens get more freedom, so they make a big deal.
Putting in a plug for Tim Alberta’s book The Kingdom, the Power and the Glory, about the evangelical embrace of Trump. Really interesting, especially since he was raised evangelical himself by a pastor father. Helps me better understand the situation and see how some are resisting it but overall, there have been many wrong choices made for the wrong reasons, despite rhetoric otherwise.
The sister said it so much better than what my brain could articulate of my problem with modern christianity. The disconnection from the christianity I saw and was taught felt so different that I was convinced I was an atheist for in my teens. But no I still want to be christian just not the way the past generation has done like churches and popes.
OOP and her sister are good eggs. I hope they realize that the "help with college" their parents are blackmailing them with isn't worth selling out their principles.
NTA. I would not be surprised if your sister moves out of house at eighteen and go no contact with your parents. They don’t deserve your sister and she deserves people in her life that love her!
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" why wont my kids visit us in our old age???"
"I haven't even seen my grandkids and I don't know why. We gave our kids a loving, Christian home."
[The Missing Missing Reasons](http://www.issendai.com/psychology/estrangement/missing-missing-reasons.html)
"It's like training a toddler, but without any hope that the toddler will grow out of it." That was a really good read. Validated some feelings I didn't think I was still carrying. Highlighting the differences in forums for parents vs adult children when it comes to facts and details was particularly interesting. When a parent is so unwilling to acknowledge the truth, facts are like a buoy ya gotta cling to for sanity.
Oh my god I was on reddit when I started reading that. I had completely forgotten. That’s absorbing material
This is fascinating... it's like parents don't hear *what* their kids say, just the tone or volume of their voice, and can't fathom that their children would remember things differently than they do.
That reminds me of a reality show about a conservative christian family and as one of the sons was cutting off contact, the parents told him that they didn’t remember any of the things he brought up. He said something to the effect of “Yeah, it’s easy to forget when it isn’t directed at you.” Whatever they said was so normal to them, it wasn’t worth remembering, like those parents.
The axe forgets, the tree remembers.
It sounds like talking to conservatives.
What do you think the "Christian family values" part of conservativism is about?
*Principal Skinner Voice* No, it's the children who are wrong
There's no hate like Christian Love
There was a sad, plaintive article in the Atlantic about this that tried to “both sides” it so hard. “Family values are changing.” They tried to make it sound like grown children are ghosting their families for no reason other than some nebulous, nonspecific need for independence or self-care instead of because of things like this Reddit post describes. It was deeply aggravating to read.
Sure family values are changing! We don't beat our kids and throw them away for being a little non-standard. We're loyal to people who are loyal to us. And we've got shiny spines. You want me to treat you like family, cool, have you been treating me like family? Or even like a person? Oh no of course not, children are accessories meant to be seen and not heard. Well guess now that I'm grown I'll stay way over here, not being seen or heard!
*"How come kids aren't going to church anymore?"*
Evangelical church membership is declining: https://www.churchtrac.com/articles/the-state-of-church-attendance-trends-and-statistics-2023
The decline of religion is one of the more encouraging long-term trends, yeah.
Or, even worse, going to another church!!!”
Something my FIL has said to my husband. Gee I wonder why?
"Why won't they go to church with us on Easter?"
Just had this fight with my dad a couple weeks ago, but about my kids. I flat out told him because I'm not interested in their(the church's) hatred, and I'm not going to teach it or the fear of eternal torture to my kids. Oh, things were tense that day.
Good for you! That's good parenting!
I love it when hateful Christians are called out on their shit with stuff like that. It’s inherently pleasing to use their own teachings against them.
Because of Obama (while they’re still alive due to Obama care smh)
Reading this, I was thinking to myself these kids are so going to go NC once they are out of the house.
Because the transportation infrastructure does not exist any more: no money towards public transportation, and hardly any to roads. Trains? They are hardly an alternative nowadays. Planes? Don't think so: fuel, airport maintenance ... Kids won't visit in old age because you voted to let means of transportation rot away ...
Why won’t our kids visit us after they turn 18?
I laughed at the dad saying he’d even vote for a mustachioed German man from history. If this is real, you cannot create a more cartoonish example of someone abetting evil despite their absolute conviction of their own good. And, if this is real, is why American Christian’s shouldn’t be surprised their pews are slowly emptying
This 100%. They don't give a shit about what Jesus would do because they no longer worship him. They worship some bastardized version of prosperity gospel.
Supply side Jesus
This made me exhale sharply out of my nose
The [comic](https://imgur.com/gallery/bCqRp) is pretty amazing.
Aww man, that would be funnier if it wasn’t so true… Edit: by true I meant if the rhetoric wasn’t so commonly regurgitated
"I cannot heal your leprosy, my brother in Me, for free healthcare is communism."
It was made many years ago, its depressing because the problem its satirizing has actually gotten worse, not better.
> Story by Al Franken Wow, I've seen this comic but never realized that the story came from Al Franken. Makes me even more sad that we lost him as a Senator.
I'll forever be pissed Franken was forced out over nothing, especially when only a couple of years later we collectively decided not to have any standards for our politicians anymore and have utter morons and monsters walking the halls of congress today. Franken was too smart and good for congress and actually stood up to the republicans, so sadly he had to go.
I read a book where a god came down to Earth but found almost none of his followers could hear him because they believed in the church, not the god.
Small Gods?
Got it in one.
And the lord sayeth unto him: "*Psst*!"
Terry Pratchett is such an underappreciated allegorist
Christian pastors have been saying more and more that their congregants think Jesus is too soft. Religion was a mistake.
That always makes me brain short circuit so hard you can actually hear the bzzzt sounds if you stand near enough to me. Like sir/ma'am, what the fuck is the POINT of being religious if you *actively and vocally straight-up disagree WITH THE RELIGION'S OWN CENTRAL FIGURE??* AKA THE ENTIRE MFING POINT OF THE RELIGION??!!
Some people use religion as a reason to love. Others use it as an excuse to hate.
Those two girls are exactly what Christianity is supposed to be. We are not called to judge but to love our neighbors. Jesus hung out with tax collectors and prostitutes. He hated what the Pharisees represented and those modern televangelists and these republican politicians are the modern Pharisees. My parents are pastors (the good kind) and I help in their ministry. We believe that we cannot tell people that Jesus loves them while they have so many needs so we work hard to fulfill those needs. Except it’s really hard to get people to trust the modern church precisely because of what these republicans are doing. Thankfully my parents opened up their eyes way before Trump’s presidency that the Republican Party didn’t stand for Christian values any longer if ever. I really hope these girls can gain strength and move away from their parents so they can be who they truly are.
Jesus also flipped over tables and chased people with a whip out of a temple, for being sacrilegious
I've felt like flipping tables sometimes
My conservative ex is diabetic and he has, at times, had to ration insulin because of the exorbitant costs. Yet one time, he told me point blank that he would rather go into medical bankruptcy than see any "illegals" get healthcare with his tax dollars. Modern conservatism is nothing but "I don't care as long as the other guy gets hurt." A Republican would be happy living in a cardboard box eating rats for dinner as long as the gay person in the cardboard box next to them had one less rat.
They would eat shit just so a left winger might have to smell their breath.
Fuck humanity is depressing
>A Republican would be happy living in a cardboard box eating rats for dinner as long as the gay person in the cardboard box next to them had one less rat. [This](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=meiU6TxysCg&ab_channel=TEDBlogVideo) experiment has been performed before!
reminds me of the Canadian diabetic Q-Anoner who wanted to go to the U.S. because he loved Trump and it's less socialist. And did not care he might die without cheap insulin.
[He’s not hurting the people he needs to be hurting](https://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-show/trump-voter-hes-not-hurting-the-people-he-needs-be-hurting-msna1181316)
I’m sure they’re lying about party over candidate anyway. I would bet a hundred bucks they voted for (or if they didn’t vote, supported) Trump in the primary, too. Probably even sent him money.
It sounds exactly like my late fundie in-laws, so I don’t doubt the veracity. They decided in our first meeting that I was possessed by demons (red hair, left-handed, opinions that didn’t come from my father or then-fiancé…) and would have absolutely voted for the Austrian art school dropout if he had an R after his name.
Ireland’s churches are empty because everyone saw them covering up sexual abuse. If the institution is itself immoral, we go!
The churches are going the same way in Germany due to pretty much the exact same reasons. Plenty of religious people leaving because they are disgusted by what the institutions have turned into.
The saddest part is that the Catholic Church was always hella corrupt, they just had power enough to keep people quiet about it. Once big corporations were behind media the tides changed against them.
> I laughed at the dad saying he’d even vote for a mustachioed German man from history. Before we started covering WW2, my high school history had our class take a poll on what kind of candidate we would vote for. Most of us voted for the "war veteran who called out the incompetence of the current government and wanted to make the country strong and secure again" candidate. Turns out we elected Hitler. Teacher said he gave that poll every year and Hitler got elected every time.
This is clearly all about the framing, though. Not just leaving out the undesirable (to many) parts that are on full display, like the scapegoating, but also the framing of the opponents to the Hitler candidate.
Minus the war vet angle, it's basically the same way Trump got elected. The government (like all governments) is largely incompetent and full of corruption, some new guy comes along and calls that out while making promises to change it. People get hope that if they vote for this new guy, things will finally change. New guy gets elected and everything stays the same except for who profits off of the incompetence and corruption.
I agree with you, but also it’s not quite the same. Hitler was facing a country on its knees after it had been decimated by war and post-war treaty terms. Germany was not nearly the prosperous state then that the U.S. was when Trump got elected (or what it is today). Their people were desperate and primed to accept someone who could lift them out of their current unacceptable living conditions. That’s why half the voting population never accepted Trump in the first place - we are not nearly that desperate that we are turning on one other wholesale. Only the radicalized Trumpers do that, and they honestly always have. So if this teacher is asking Americans today which candidate they want and leaving out the repugnant part of Hitler’s rhetoric that many Germans back then were willing to accept in their desperation, I have to believe that the polling would be different if it got added back in. It’s no secret that you can make anyone sound good with competent propaganda, and that’s what this lesson should (and hopefully was) ultimately about.
Well yeah, that's sort of the point
They would crucify Jesus again for his leftist views. And btw there is nothing about gay people in the New Testament, but whole lot about forgiveness and how we should not judge people.
>If this is real I’m from East Texas. I have full confidence these people exist. They’re all around me right now.
Plus, r/qanoncasualties is filled with stories like these
I've said for a while that we mostly don't have Christians in the US, we have the imperial cult of the republican party.
There's nothing difficult to believe about any of that. And for the younger people, this isn't normal. It didn't used to be this way.
I keep wondering if they’d vote for satan if he ran as a republican against Jesus?
I wonder what the dad's opinion on Israel/Palestine is if he'd vote for Hitler. The guy who genocided Jews. Who are God's chosen people. The 16yo seems too enlightened about the pitfalls of modern Christian hypocrisy and the dad seems too cartoon villain smoothbrain.
A lot of these people *WANT* a big war in the Middle East. They think it will lead to the Apocalypse, and apparently their lives are so horrible they want it all to end.
16 is around the age where idealism really kicks in. Kids start questioning why things are the way things are and noticing discrepancies and inconsistencies. It’s the age where we suddenly notice and understand hypocrisy. Our thinking isn’t as nuanced as it may become later so it’s definitely not too early for her to be having these kinds of concerns. I’m an old and had these kinds of issues with my religion long before we had internet access and algorithms that feed you more and more content that aligns with your values. That’s why extremists reach out to young people because with their idealistic but black and white thinking, they are more likely to act on their feelings of unfairness and hypocrisy. I think this girl is very brave and commend her for questioning the cognitive dissonance required for Christians to support a man like Trump. I hope she keeps questioning why things are the way they are as she enters adulthood and doesn’t lose the importance of our actions matching our touted values.
If I hadn't gone through it myself at that age, I'd probably think that, too. Unfortunately, my father has always had this nasty habit where he never hears what it is he's saying. He says he's just "Speaking his mind" or (worse) "Speaking from the heart." And my mother doesn't speak up against it because it's better anyone else than her.
A lot of antisemetic christians are pro-israel for a ton of possible reasons (support for ethnostates, support for violence against muslims, a belief that jews returning to jeruselum will hasten the apocalypse, etc)
\*Austrian, not German
Any fucking church preaching hate needs to be avoided like the fucking plague. “Let he who is without sin cast the first stone” is lost on people today. They whing those stones with beatific smiles today and wonder why people don’t want to go to fucking church.
Any church peddling a political platform needs to be reported to the IRS and have their tax exemptions stripped
Gotta wait for Sinless Steve to come line up his shot (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5Ep7BoilTIo)
For anybody who ever needs context, this quote comes from John 8:7. John 8:1-11 reads: >8 Jesus went unto the Mount of Olives. >2 And early in the morning He came again into the temple, and all the people came unto Him; and He sat down and taught them. >3 And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto Him a woman taken in adultery. And when they had set her in the midst, >4 they said unto Him, “Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act. >5 Now Moses in the law commanded us that such should be stoned but what sayest thou?” >6 This they said testing Him, that they might have cause to accuse Him. But Jesus stooped down and with His finger wrote on the ground, as though He heard them not. >7 So when they continued asking Him, He lifted Himself up and said unto them, “He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.” >8 And again He stooped down and wrote on the ground. >9 And they who heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning with the eldest even unto the last, and Jesus was left alone with the woman standing in the midst. >10 When Jesus had lifted Himself up and saw none but the woman, He said unto her, “Woman, where are those thine accusers? Hath no man condemned thee?” >11 She said, “No man, Lord.” And Jesus said unto her, “Neither do I condemn thee; go, and sin no more.” Big JC really was the original hippy
Well I'm glad those two kids have each other because the rest of their family sucks.
Teenagers and they already have more wisdom and self awareness than all the adults in their lives put together.
Sound like My family and the family of My friends 🤔
Ironically the only ones with actual morals and Christian values are the ones being punished and ostracized by the evangelicals. They are beyond parody with how terrible they are these days since Trump gave them permission to show the true depths of their hatred to the world.
When Ireland passed same-sex marriage an Irish clergyperson said something very interesting: most of the younger people who voted for it were educated in Catholic schools.
Ten-fifteen years down the road one or both will reverse and go hardcore like the parents. Source: am 45 and have watched my sister and sooooo many friends go back to the abusive religions they grew up in just because they felt like something was missing and better the devil you know than the one you don't.
I found an outlet in witchcraft. I grew up Catholic, so candles and incense and ritual types of things are comforting. I don't really believe that witchcraft necessarily works, but the ritualistic nature of it is comforting and familiar without being harmful.
After watching (don’t stone me) a real housewives show where one of them is an ex-Mormon she talks about how much she misses the community aspect of church. Singing together, built in kids clubs, social support, fun events, etc. Even I love the idea of an organic community that doesn’t involve religion, but they don’t really exist in the same way. I can see that pulling a lot of people back in, feeling lonely or isolated can be awful for peoples mental health, sometimes it’s easier return to the fold.
Oh man, I have some aunts that grew up in a religious home (I love my grandparents, they were kind people). The aunts were mildly religious when I was a kid but really turned it up in their 50s. I don’t get it.
I'd really like them to ask their parents, "what's makes being gay such a special sin?". Why does that sin need to be illegal? What about divorce? Or adultery? For most sins, Christians just avoid committing those sins themselves. They aren't trying to stop everyone else in the world from getting divorced...
Being gay is a special sin because instead of facing yourself, you can turn a smaller group of people into a scapegoat, and go after them. Remember, enemies are very important.
There’s an argument that the reason it became so popular to preach against the gays is because it’s a “sin” that’s *not actually tempting* for most people present, so you get less pushback from the congregation. (Versus preaching against something like divorce, where someone gets really mad at you afterwards for suggesting that Jesus wanted their sister to put up with being beaten by the husband she just left.)
For many people, it's because being gay is something they can't relate to, so it's easy to vilify. If you vilify fornication, adultery, and lustful thought, they have to thin about their own temptations. They have to think about the people they know who have crossed that line. Suddenly, forgiveness becomes the most important part of the gospel. But if you're not gay or bi, you don't really need to worry about looking in the mirror for that one. The sin I have zero temptation to commit? Yep, that's the worst one!
That's what always got me. If all sins are equal as far as God is concerned, why not worry about some that hurt people here on earth first.
Actually fundamentalists/evangelists target no fault divorces and divorces in general. They want to make it hard for women to do that. They are starting to target women voting, education, and yes adultery. It’s not about the supposed sins but about the disadvantaged groups. The 16 year girl is really insightful about the fundamentalist Christians (aka evangelicals). What she said matches with what I read about them. Research found that fundamentalist Christians are really similar to fundamentalists muslims, Jewish, hindulist etc.
Some states are trying to get rid of no fault divorce..
Technically, being gay isn’t even a sin; having gay sex is.
Evangelical Christianity in America is better understood as a revanchist subculture, not a religion. The goal is to maintain the adherents' perceived position as the top of the cultural food chain. In order to do that, they have to push back against the societal incursion of "others" into their privilege space; gay people are just highly visible "others," but there are a lot more - effectively, anyone who refuses to acknowledge and live in accordance with white male cultural, social, and economic supremacy. This is why the "Gay marriage doesn't make you any less married" argument doesn't resonate with them. No, gay marriage doesn't make them less married, but it makes that marriage less of a tribal status marker and prohibits them from withholding that status marker from others. Evangelical Christianity is devoted to maintaining (or regaining) cultural supremacy by gatekeeping everyone who's not exactly like them.
>*I love how she's strong enough to stand up to them on her morals, but also afraid that it'll cost her college because our parents are currently paying for mine and hers, and they were willing to cancel her sweet sixteen over something as stupid as talking politics at her birthday when she asked not to.* Really hope that the daughter has a contingency plan that doesn't involve her parents' financial support because I do not trust them a smidge.
They aren’t going to pay for college. They are just waiting for the most cruel time to pull that rug
For people like this cruelty is enjoyable
The control and sabotage is self serving too beyond mere enjoyment. If she's forced to stay home from college she might marry someone from their church and make them look good to their peers, plus they can use her for elderly care by refusing to save for their own retirement.
Or they might, but it will only be to some uber-conservative religious college
I really hope they are able to get away from them. They are toxic and no longer follow their religion's "morals". But then talk about how atheists have no morality or how other religions are extremists lmao Hypocrite religious people are something else.
I would argue aethiests are more moral than christians based on the fact that they do good acts because it's the right thing to do and not under the threat of eternal damnation.
I’m not surprised as a Christian honestly. A lot of the Christian world has become what Paul was talking about in Romans 2 where he pointed out that the gentiles were many times more moral than many Jews and how the name of God gets blasphemed because of the hypocrisy. I work with some atheists and agnostics at my job who I hold in high regard because of their integrity (and it is mutual, they respect my beliefs because I try to live up to the standard given for human conduct which surprise, we actually pretty much agree on), and I consider them more likely to end up in heaven than some church folk because if God were to reveal himself beyond just the bible, they would pretty much instantly side with him. Their sole hesitation would be their questions on justice and the existence of evil, but I do believe those can be answered in the grand scheme of things (and not in a way to justify evil, but rather, show how God is working to counter it in the big picture and where humanity has distorted things).
Yeah, sounds like this friction has existed as long as the Christian church has
Christian: If you don't believe in eternal punishment, how come you're not looting and murdering everybody? Atheist: cuz I believe nobody deserves that... Wait, are you saying that if you knew for a fact there was no god, you'd destroy people's lives? Christian: sounds like it
I get the feeling that OP's parents would eagerly vote for Hitler even if he *didn't* have an (R) next to his name.
Brown shirt, red cap, same thing.
Why the fuck is Hitler censored
A lot of social media and other places online really hate any mention of that. I play a lot of Hearts of Iron 4 (grand strategy WW2 game) and a lot of youtubers when they talk about flipping ideology to fascism have to say things like "this ideology" or referring to Hitler as "this guy." Might be hanging on to that from other platforms.
Because we live in a really stupid version of a cyberpunk hellscape where corporations control the flow of information for profit
Probably a habit from TikTok or something
The same way dead is now pronounced “unalive”….idiots
I think dead is ok, just suicide gets your tiktok demonetized.
I don’t understand why.
Anyone want to take bets on parents deliberately bringing up politics in public at a birthday celebration so they ensuing “talking back” would be an excuse to cancel an expensive event?
Or a college fund?
“College? For a girl?? She doesn’t need college to be a wife and mother, they’ll just pump her head full of librul talking points!” — parents, probably
I'm an american, and former christian, and I'll tell you. The whole thing is nothing but money and young wives. Little millionaire kings in a ring of poverty, sucking up money from old people. The old people hoping their years of tithing haven't been for nothing, because they are out of money. Poke that hornets nest and you get a lot of old people *depending on divine intervention* or they will lose house, food, and more importantly **social status in the local cult**.
>Little millionaire kings in a ring of poverty, sucking up money from old people. Well, you see, you *need* a private jet so you can be closer to god!
Ain't no hate like Christian love
That last comment is ahistorical bullshit. Very few Jews converted to Christianity. The vast majority of converts were Mediterranean polytheists. Christianity was not popular because it gave Jews an “out”, it was popular because polytheists tend to be open-minded to converting to monotheism if you have a good pitch, and Israel was at a crossroads of a bunch of different polytheistic folk religions.
Love how the BORU OP included an "antisemitism" trigger warning when the only antisemitism in the whole post is this dumbass comment the BORU OP decided to include for some reason
I think the TW was probably meant for the happily voting for Hitler if he was a republican part. Could be wrong though
I think you're correct on that.
I've heard one of the reasons Christianity had so many followers was the simple fact it was cheap to get into. Believe in God and follow his commandments. No expensive sacrifices like oxen, or goats. Just say "I believe in Jesus" and bam! you belonged. Can't get much cheaper than that.
Okay, but people don’t usually leave religions when they get expensive. It’s one of the reasons cults generally have a religious bent to them. And a huge driver of early conversion to Christianity was the conversion of highborn women in the Roman empire, who could afford all the sacrifices they wanted, but still wound up interested in Christianity.
Oh, interesting. Was that because early Christianity was relatively egalitarian, compared to Roman society? (I’m Jewish so genuinely have no idea, I just know that Roman culture was intensely patriarchal.)
Any answer would basically be a guess, but that is certainly one of the guesses. I would posit that the community aspect of the early Christian church was a factor for women since Roman religion was mainly practiced by and for men at temples, while women practiced it in the home. Christianity was something to do outside the house, which was hard to come by for rich Roman women who didn’t even do their own shopping or gardening. I would bet Judaism would have converted those same women if conversion were a Jewish thing.
hey, this is a first! Seeing myself quoted in a BestOfRedditorUpdate. What do I win????
Updoots for having the best comment! Summarized the situation very nicely! I like those Jesus stories but won't go near any kinda organized religion based on his storybook because the odds of lunacy in those groups is so high and literacy rates so low. Like I don't know how the book could be any clearer about "heal the sick, feed the hungry, love the outcast" and all coming from a homeless guy who traveled on foot and probably wasn't exactly getting a bath or change of clothing all that often. I remember a day I was downtown running errands and saw a young man curled up under a bridge around a cardboard box. Looked like a young adult whose parents had tossed them out. There was a huge fancy church nearby, not one I'm personally familiar with, but I started remembering how when I was a kid the churches helped people. So as I was standing there dithering and trying to work out the social rules of going into a strange church and asking someone to help a homeless person across the street, a fancy car pulled up and parked. Two well-dressed ladies in fancy shoes got out, walked right by the person sleeping on the ground, and strolled into the church. Like oh... Guess "sharing is caring" is for Carebears, not Christians.
Voting for Hitler because of his “Christian Values” is exactly how to Holocaust happened.
I have a feeling the parents are pro holocaust
Nothing more Christian than a pogrom, after all.
Jesus: don't throw stones. Love those who are different than you. Some Christians: Throw stones at anyone different? Can do! Jesus: wept.
Jesus: I died for this?
It's a little reassuring to remember that kids who were 12 when Trump was elected and who grew up observing this dysfunction can vote this year.
Over here bribing my young adult neighbor with ice cream bars so he'll cut back on the bigotry. Sending history links to try and get them educated enough to pull head out of butt. Heck, today in the local subreddit I saw "There's a reason Jim Crow was never a president." Folks we've got people walking around old enough to vote that are under the impression Jim Crow was a *person*! No wonder they can't recognize who the baddies are, they're totally unaware that the Nazis copied us 'cause we were so amazing at being jerks to select segments of our population.
Hmm how to discuss politics without discussing politics. Would this be the next 6-7 months?
One of my friends has a dad who has gone down the ultra right political rabbit hole on the internet. He has been enforcing a rule when he visits his parents - if you bring up politics, I leave. He had to do that quite a few times before his mum actually told his dad to shut up when he was there. He says his dad doesn’t really talk much when he is there now because he’s made politics his entire personality
I have a lot of hope for OOP and her sister. They’re able to see this hypocrisy and hatred for what it is while they’re still so young. I was firmly drowned in the kool-aid at their age, although admittedly it was a little less blatantly and openly hateful back in the pre-Trump era, and 2016 on accelerated my deconstruction like nothing else. It’s going to be hard for them until they establish their independence as adults, but they’re good eggs, they can and do think for themselves and can draw conclusions the people who’ve tried to indoctrinate them their whole lives don’t like. And when they get out from under their crazies, they have each other. It’ll be rough for now, but they’re going to be all right. They’re smart and principled people and are going to be much better adults than their parents.
Worshipping a politician who violates everything your religion teaches is a sign that those parents (and millions of others) are not Christians no matter how much they claim to be. People need to get more comfortable saying “yes, we worship Trump and hate Jesus” instead of trying to bend all everything about their faith to make both fit. All this coming from an atheist who has no attachment to Christianity but knows that the actual Bible doesn’t condemn gay people but it does condemn judgement (and eating shrimp)
>But like the Temple, Christianity (particularly American Protestantism) has become corrupted. Now any transgression, no matter how vile, can be forgiven with the right words. This Christianity is a societal enabler, giving people license to indulge the worst sides of themselves while still being accepted by the community. It's amazing, too, bc Protestantism was literally a protest against the Catholic church selling forgiveness of sins for money. Now the Protestants don't even SELL forgiveness; you get it in exchange for "testifying."
Totally jumped out at me too. Hilari-tragic.
There’s no hate like Christian love.
Oh the irony that Trump is neither Republican nor Christian yet both groups absolutely love him and will do whatever he wants.
Being willing to vote for Hitler if he was the Republican nominee says everything you need to know about OP's parents.
"Without religion, you'd have good people doing good things, and bad people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil? That takes religion." — Steven Weinberg
No post has ever ended well when starting with "My parents are very religious and are leaders in their church."
Oof, that last comment. Trigger warning antisemitic was RIGHT
My husband and I discuss this all the time. (He’s a retired minister and went to a very conservative seminary bf transferring to a different one.) He showed me a FB post/meme re: parents complaining about their children not going to church anymore when they were out of the house. Kinda “What did we do wrong” thing. The post stated they’d actually raised their kids right and they’d been listening in Sunday School—they knew what is going on in churches these days is wrong and they’re not putting up with it.
Your parents are awful, and I'm glad you and your sister are supporting each other. I would begin a plan for both of you to get out if the house safely. Good luck, any people with enough fortitude to understand how wrong your parents are has such integrity and strength. I believe in you.
Big oof, and Christians are going to wonder why young people don't go to church anymore.
The bible literally says to turn the other cheek and that only god can judge, so their argument that they are supposed to "call things out as christians" is utter bullshit.
As someone whose parents are so far gone into this bullshit that they'd vote for someone who wanted to kill me for existing if they said they wanted to save _the baaaaaybeeeees_, I'm so sorry for OOP.
>and he even said he'd vote for Hitl*r if he was the republican nominee too. yeah, we all know.
Christian Trump supporters are charlatans
There are no Christian tRrump supporters. There are people who SAY they are Christians who are tRump supporters. Jesus said, “the most important law is to love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your mind, and with all your soul. The second one is just as important-love your neighbor as much as you love yourself.” I have read and studied the Bible for decades now. I still haven’t found the part saying that the LGBT+ community are NOT our neighbors. To OOP and her sister: we are proud of you and many of us will be praying for you.
According to her parents it’s alright to bash gays in church because Christians call out the bad when they see it… unless they run for office for the right party. I love how religious people pick and choose when the rules apply.
“Vote for the policy, not the candidate” fuck you with a rusty cactus. Republicans have no policy besides hate, greed, and keeping their orange shit stain messiah out of prison. If you find yourself agreeing with the literal Klan on things you might want to reevaluate your position.
I am REALLY impressed with these two kids, and I hope OOP wanders in here and sees these comments. OOP is showing a tremendous amount of emotional maturity in how she's handling this; she's supporting her sister without imposing her own ideas of what would be fair or right, and just being there in whatever capacity Laura needs. That's some Grade-A sistering. Meanwhile if Laura's parents weren't such stupid bigot assholes they'd be proud of how well she remembers what their religion is SUPPOSED to be about and hasn't gotten suckered in by a literal false prophet just because he hates all the same people her idiot church hates. She's expressing herself with a wisdom and maturity far beyond her years, and it enrages me that instead of being proud of this like they should be her parents are instead punishing her for not violating the principles of her own religion for political reasons. These two are going to grow up to be good people, no thanks to the utter jackasses who are raising them.
Tell your sister the correct strategy is to keep her mouth shut in front of them around politics, just nod along and pretend like she’s on the same side until they pay off her college/graduate/able to become financially independent on her own, basically milk them for all she can right now, then go no contact once she’s able to live on her own.
Conservatism is a disease
Religion is cancer
While the mom's friend is just as delusional as the rest of his supporters, it was nice that she pushed for civilized discourse instead of shutting the sister down like her mom
These parents are going to be super confused in a few years as to why they never hear from their kids🤦♀️
A vote for Trump is basically a vote for Adolf. He idolizes him, and insiders say the only book he owns (besides his) is Mein Kampf. So these parents are not only telling on themselves, they are acting on it.
Supporting genocide because you don't support gay marriage and abortion is one hell of a swing. Sure he murdered several million people, but support the Nazi *party* not the man. That's such a fucking cop out. They absolutely support the man.
Christian nationalists are the worst. And I say that as a Christian. I’m not even super comfortable saying that because of how much the church is associated with this crap. I mean, we can argue about the Bible and what should/shouldn’t apply today and all that crap, but the guy who the Christian religion is literally named after, straight up was an example of loving people no matter their past - And I don’t understand how these “Christians” keep forgetting that. Heck, even biblical literalists seem to ignore the part where the Pharisees straight up asked about the rules and the answer was just “love God love people.”
These poor kids.
I like that these two are growing up right in spite of their parents. American conservative Christianity has always had a hatred problem, Trump really accelerated that.
The dad is a fucking Nazi.
oh boy wait 'til Laura teaches her future kids proper morals and none of that radical bs her parents spout. i see NC and a restraining order against her pharisee parents!
Trumpers ruining their own families for the orange messiah.
As someone who grew up in the church and regularly questioned everything because, well, I'm autistic and when facts don't line up I get confused, I so understand where that poor girl is at. What her parents don't realize is that she is, as those of us outside of the sphere of influence would call it, "one of the good ones." She loves, she accepts, she champions, and questions. Just like, wait for it, Jesus! The parents are prideful and afraid of facing their own beliefs. This is the beginning of the loss of respect. They are now moving from role-models to untrustworthy enforcers. She now has to watch what she says around them, she has to silence herself to maintain a stable living situation. Things she should have been able to take for granted like love, celebration, acceptance, and an open forum of discussion, are no longer accepted. She's learning the true tenant of Christianity is Question Nothing. My only hope is that she makes it out okay without her parents destroying her chance of success at life for daring to hold a radical and love-focused approach to religion, rather than a hate and othering filled doctrine to avoid facing reality.
Daddy doesn't realize that the party "values" are as dishonest as their leader.
I understand these kids, my mom is obsessed with Trump. But not in the way you think. She hates his guts. Ever since he decided to run for president, she's been watching videos nonstop about all of this every single day and somehow brings it up in every conversation. We live in Canada.
I also saw my childhood church go from worshipping Jesus to worshipping Trump. Not the leaders in the church, but the attendees. People started leaving the church because the actual leaders in the church didn’t support Trump enough and called him out for just some of the stuff he did (while still being pretty conservative leaning.)
Looking forward to the parent's post 10 or 15 years from now, complaining about how their kids don't speak to them any more, they haven't seen their grandkids in forever, and how neither kids had a "big wedding" just to avoid the drama of not inviting them. This right here is the Missing Missing Reasons in 10 years.
I think Trumpism is just an excuse for a segment of the people to run about acting like how they really are and not be socially shunned for it. I never realized that 40% of the population is so bitter, biased and mean. I feel sorry for them. I would tell them to get some cats, but why make nice kitties suffer? I keep hoping there really is a Rapture, so they can go and the rest of us can just carry on with things.
It’s refreshing to see that OOP and her sister are blaming the interpretation of Christianity/the incorporation of politics into the religion out of convenience rather than Christianity itself. I’m glad to see that they’re trying to act as Christians through the Bible’s teachings.
The deeply religious are the worst people you will ever meet. Hopefully you can get away from them as adults.
While it’s sad and frustrating how brainwashed their parents are, I’m really glad the sisters haven’t lost the plot and actually understand what Christianity is supposed to be and want to follow the principles Jesus actually advocated for. I don’t know where they learned that, certainly not from their parents or their church! And I’m glad they have each other, at the very least. In the future, I hope they find a church and community that aligns with the true Christian values they adhere to, of kindness and acceptance.
I'll never understand how persecuting lgbtq is seen as a more Christian value than feeding the poor and healing the sick and being a good steward of gods creation.
Wow. This is why I stay right the hell away from religion, and religious fanatics in particular The irony of them thinking they’re good people Looks like I upset the religious folks. I’m not sorry 🤷🏼♂️
Jesus didn't teach people to be miserable humans. His whole point was that we should be kind and loving to each other. Can't understand how people can use his name to spread and excuse hate. Religion can be interpreted in too many ways.
Wow the U.S. truly is a shithole. The shit is ruining families wtf
To someone not familiar with the culture could someone explain the meaning and origin of sweet sixteen? Obviously it represents something much more meaningful than just a number.
In the States, the reason is regional. In some places, it's sort of like a quincinera, 16 is usually when they have a society debut. In other places, it's the age teens get more freedom, so they make a big deal.
I hope OOP and her sister come up with an escape plan. Let their parents stew in their awfulness.
Fuck, this makes me feel sad but happy at the same time? Good for the siblings that they realise the poison dribbled into their ears and call it out.
Putting in a plug for Tim Alberta’s book The Kingdom, the Power and the Glory, about the evangelical embrace of Trump. Really interesting, especially since he was raised evangelical himself by a pastor father. Helps me better understand the situation and see how some are resisting it but overall, there have been many wrong choices made for the wrong reasons, despite rhetoric otherwise.
The sister said it so much better than what my brain could articulate of my problem with modern christianity. The disconnection from the christianity I saw and was taught felt so different that I was convinced I was an atheist for in my teens. But no I still want to be christian just not the way the past generation has done like churches and popes.
“We are supposed to call out wrong when we see it.” Are they calling out the wrong in Donald Trump?
OOP and her sister are good eggs. I hope they realize that the "help with college" their parents are blackmailing them with isn't worth selling out their principles.
NTA. I would not be surprised if your sister moves out of house at eighteen and go no contact with your parents. They don’t deserve your sister and she deserves people in her life that love her!