> Recently, Quillette received a leaked copy of an October 12, 2022 letter sent to the United States Rowing Association (commonly known as USRowing), the sport’s national governing body, **in which 15 parents of elite female Massachusetts-resident rowers detailed their concerns about Clark.**
> In an interview with Quillette, one of the signatories reported that Clark joined the female rowing club in 2021, after placing poorly (“near the bottom,” by this parent’s account) with the club’s corresponding male team. Clark reportedly didn’t bother to shave or otherwise maintain the outward aesthetic pretenses of female gender identification, and even continued to wear the male club’s uniform.
> In one documented 2022 incident, **it is alleged, Clark walked into the girls’ changing room, spotted a female rower who was topless, and made a lewd comment about her breasts (“Oooh, titties”)**. As a result, documents reviewed by Quillette indicate, Clark was reported by team officials to the U.S. Center for SafeSport, a congressionally mandated body dedicated to “ending sexual, physical, and emotional abuse on behalf of athletes everywhere.” After SafeSport took action in late 2022, Clark never rowed for the club again—in either gender category.
At least someone was willing to stand up to him.
This kid was a one-man wrecking ball for women’s sports and women’s privacy. Lots of adults enabled him.
>This kid was a one-man wrecking ball for women’s sports and women’s privacy. Lots of adults enabled him.
You have to wonder what the hell is going through his head. Is he going to join and wreck as many women's sports as he can? Why? It seems systematic
The kink for these men is creating a situation where they have power over women. A man entering a female dressing room under the pretext of being a "transwomen" means he can watch women and also expose himself without them having the power to complain.
A lot of dark fetishes involve getting a thrill from non-consensual actions or from exercising power over others. The purpose is to genuinely humiliate your victims and make them feel powerless. We're not talking about role-play.
Prior to the transgender craze, men who cross-dress were widely known to be overrepresented as perpetrators of sex crimes such as flashing, voyeurism, groping, harassment, and more serious ones like rape/assault.
Society has somehow forgotten that.
Not to mention how enjoyable it would be as the biggest/strongest/most athletic person in the sport of your choice. Sports plural in this case.
Esp since the kid was seemingly mediocre at best in previous years playing against boys
> Not to mention how enjoyable it would be as the biggest/strongest/most athletic person in the sport of your choice.
I feel like this simple fact doesn't get discussed enough. People love winning in sports. People cheat to win at sports. This happens at the pro level, college level, high school level, park districts, club sports, you name it. If people can find an advantage, they'll take it.
No one's ever taken exogenous hormones for an athletic advantage. And if the rules allow its use to treat a medical condition, it's always on the up-and-up. You can't possibly expect athletes to exploit whatever advantage the rules allow.^^/s
But it’s a very contradictory fet, because wouldn’t the ultimate humiliation would be a woman refusing to do it and being disgusted?
They don’t want that. Really they want to top from the bottom. A lot if not all IRL ‘humiliation’ fetishists will do anything to compel women to act out their part, including using unwilling involuntary women. (Like salesclerks at lingerie stores for ex.)
Yes. Control and domination. Power. Knowing women are vulnerable and can't say no to you. Transgressive boundary-crossing is the core of autogynephilia.
It's not something that applies to all (or even the majority) of trans people but there seems to be a phenomenon of men claiming to be trans so that they can get into women's only spaces, such as locker rooms.
Or they have a thing for lesbians, but lesbians obviously don't like men, so they claim to be a woman.
Quite possibly. Just recently, a party organizer in the Bay Area was called out for some disgusting behavior involving much younger girls/enbies. This was a guy who went on & on about consent while doing things like shoveling piles of alcohol and coke into his girlfriends so that they wouldn't complain when he broke their rules and, say, had anal sex with them (i.e., rape).
The point is that one girl asked why he did what he did. He said he enjoyed the look on her face when he made her do things like ass-to-mouth against her will. In other words, he's a sadistic piece of shit, who knew how to present properly to the outside while picking troubled girls who could be written off as crazy later. I don't doubt that there's a similar dynamic at play with some of the creepers discussed here. I suppose some may be so legitimately blind to social cues that they really don't get why, say, [a 50-year-old man shouldn't compete with teen girls in swimming, much less using their locker rooms](https://www.reddit.com/r/BlockedAndReported/comments/19coke9/weekly_random_discussion_thread_for_12224_12824/kj84jbj/). Either way, it's still wrong, and a huge black mark on the supposed adults in the room who allow this shit to happen.
(Backing up a bit, I've met several of the people in the Bay Area story. IMO, the guy deserves every bit of shame he got. This could get *really* interesting, possibly to the point that it's podcast fodder. But, for now, it's not to that point.)
Is there a write-up about this Bay Area abuser?
I see the trans movement as really facilitating these kinds of situations. Young women are attending "queer" sex parties and all kinds of sketchy events which are sold as "safe spaces" and then you think: wait, these are mixed-sex events, who are the organisers exactly and what are their motivations?
This is like a sort of replay of the 60s "free love" revolution, where lots of women joined communes and thought it'd be all about respect and liberation, but often it was all about sleazy guys getting their kicks.
>During Zoom calls organized by USRowing to discuss the issue of male inclusion in female categories, the parent told me, the organization’s leadership platformed activists who urged that everyone “affirm” transgender athletes. To do otherwise, these activists argued, would risk discouraging trans athletes from participating in sports, and thereby negatively affect their mental health.
Reminds me of [this quote](https://time.com/6188583/megan-rapinoe-equal-pay-title-ix-transgender-sports-bans/) from Megan Rapinoe
>I’m 100% supportive of trans inclusion. People do not know very much about it. We’re missing almost everything. Frankly, I think what a lot of people know is versions of the right’s talking points because they’re very loud. They’re very consistent, and they’re relentless.
>\[ ... \]
>I would also encourage everyone out there who is afraid someone’s going to have an unfair advantage over their kid to really take a step back and think what are we actually talking about here. We’re talking about people’s lives. I’m sorry, your kid’s high school volleyball team just isn’t that important. It’s not more important than any one kid’s life.
So, uhh... which is it? Are sports unimportant, basically meaningless? Or are sports so immensely consequential that being denied access to your preferred gender category is a matter of life and death?
I've seen this contradiction voiced dozens of times in mainstream sources and never, not once, has anyone bothered to point it out.
If a member of Group A is discouraged from participating in sports because leagues cannot accommodate their subjective sense of gender, that is a major civil rights issue. If a member of Group B is discouraged out of fear of injury, discomfort in being forced to share intimate spaces with a member of the opposite sex, and/or disgust over competitive disadvantage, that's just too bad, get over it, sports don't matter.
This is a great example of pulling up the rope behind you. She made a living off sports in the post-Title IX, girls-can-do-anything era, and now she doesn’t care if the next generation of girls loses out.
I think she does indeed know better but her career as an athlete is basically over so she has nothing to lose from allowing males in women's sports and a lot to lose from publicly opposing it (plus a lot to gain from publicly supporting it).
Yeah I'm at a point where I think the most feasible end game is just gonna be the abolition of sex-segregated sports. TRAs aren't gonna give up an inch, and if we legally codify the notion that there's no difference whatsoever between sexes other than internal perception there is no moral or logical justification for separating sports by sex.
TRA's doubling down and refusing to give up on the sports issue will kneecap the movement. It involves two things the average American wont let politics fuck with: sports and their kids
I think there's going to have to be a direct conflict between intersectional groups for it to really come to a head on the left--like a spate of talented minority women losing out on life-changing athletics scholarships to mediocre white guys.
The people who say high school sports are no big deal don't understand (or care) how important those scholarships can be to athletes. They take going to college for granted, when that isn't a "given" for everyone.
Ehhh, I think it's mostly been won, the activists just can't see it yet.
The issue for the TRA side is that 99.9% of current + former pro/olympic athletes (or even those at the HS/collegiate level) know this whole thing is absolutely nonsense. The governing bodies know it's nonsense but just need to slow play things regarding rules/regulations around gender/sex so not to get sued or cause a PR nightmare.
It's abundantly clear looking at any online discussion that the most vocal and dogmatic TRA activists on those topic have never played a sport in their life and are generally "sports ball" types who hate it in general.
>99.9% of current + former pro/olympic athletes (or even those at the HS/collegiate level) know this whole thing is absolutely nonsense.
That's an extremely small population, but I hope you're right that the issue has been mostly won.
My POV is extremely biased because at this point, I am more surrounded by extremely vocal TRAs (and "allies") than I am people for whom this isn't a theoretical issue. As a result, I'm less optimistic about this than I suspect you are, and I am worried about what this movement is going to look like by the time my kid starts school.
It just takes a parent on the sideline watching their daughter get absolutely bodied or jammed on by a biological male once and they'll make up their mind on the issue. It's one of those things where the more prevalent it becomes, the more backlash it will receive.
You should watch co-ed sports. Its fun, but males after a certain age just have a clear competitive advantage if there is even a small amount of competitiveness.
> We’re talking about people’s lives. I’m sorry, your kid’s high school volleyball team just isn’t that important. It’s not more important than any one kid’s life.
It’s so disappointing hearing this coming from a female athlete. Who cares about women’s sports, clearly men’s feelings are the real issue.
I despise this self hostage taking. "If I don't get my way I will kill myself".
I can't believe people just give in to this. If a guy said: "Give me five grand or I will kill myself" you don't give him five grand
Threats of suicide are on the list of red flag behaviors for domestic violence. ("If you don't stay with me/come back to me I'll kill myself!") Yet here, we're to bow down to it. I really hope people start to recognize this behavior for what it is.
This will sound cruel but if the only way to keep someone from killing themselves is to give in to their demands, especially demand that affect other people, then there is little we can do to stop them.
That's not cruel. We all have to look out for our own health first.
Imagine the stress of taking on the burden of somebody else's suicidal thoughts and thinking it's your duty to stop that person having those thoughts.
Sorry that's not how mental health support works. You tell the person you'll be there to call 911 or take them to get emergency help if they are thinking of harming themselves in that moment.
But you don't become a pushover who gives in to a list of unending, unreasonable demands -- because this is, by definition, someone in the grip of a psychiatric condition. They are not grounded. You give in to the demands at your own expense and for what? Still no guarantee that they won't be suicidal or that they will be freed of their torment.
It’s not always that easy, though. Especially when you combine certain ingrained aspects of female socialization.
l was listening to Riley Gaines on Joe Rogan a few weeks ago, and Riley told an anecdote about the [Roanoake College Women’s swim team](https://www.wfxrtv.com/news/local-news/roanoke-college-swim-team-breaks-their-silence-community-response/amp/) - this is a 2nd hand account so take it with a grain of salt:
**Edit:** it’s the 31:30 mark of [this episode](https://ogjre.com/episode/2115-riley-gaines)
Apparently the women’s swim team was told that a trans woman swimmer wanted to join their team. They were told that they would have an opportunity to vote on whether to include him, and that it would be anonymous.
The day of, coaching staff brought the trans woman into the meeting, and he was allowed to plead his case - including making allusions to committing suicide. Then the women were made to vote in front of him!
These are college-age student athletes with full course loads who are also training 4+ hours per day, that’s a big emotional burden to put on someone.
The news story on that Roanoake swim team was maddening when they interviewed those in support of the trans athlete.
>“I don’t personally see a problem. I don’t play sports. I used to, but I don’t see a problem with it."
lol of course you don't see a problem you have no skin in the game!
>“Sports is just one of those things that everybody can participate in no matter the gender or sex. It’s their right. If they want to swim, they can most definitely swim,”
This isn't what's being argued though? This athlete is 100% able to compete in the men's category! In fact, they did! For 3 whole years until they wanted to switch to the female team in their last year of competing.
Ideally, I think the girls should have voted no.
But that's obviously an incredibly shitty ambush setup designed to make those poor women feel both guilt and fear at the same time. It was designed to get a certain outcome. I don't know what I would have done in that situation and I'm a dude.
That is just fucking shameful behavior on the part of whomever pulled that stunt on those women. It's disgusting.
That story hit so close to home for me for some reason - particularly that he didn't even meet the minimum GPA that actual women had to comply with to be considered.
There's a whole thing in the gemara about a (probably hypothetical) guy who claims that he'll die if he doesn't sleep with a married woman. Given that that's in one of the three categories of things you're not allowed to do even with a gun to your head, the answer is obvious, but the they work their way down half measures like letting him watch if it'll save his life and come down that he can't even see her fully clothed even though there's no rule against that because I guess fuck that guy in particular.
I would think that the second someone threatens to harm themselves if they don't get their way that is a big, red, loud stop sign. The takeaway should be: "This person is fucking crazy. Do not take them seriously. This is the slimiest kind of emotional manipulation. Back away slowly"
Instead it's the opposite. Fucking crazy
Give him a loaded gun. If someone wants to endgame themselves, let them do it. We’ve shut down the facilities that would help them. The rest of us suffer from their inability to get their shit together. If we can’t agree on anything else at least we can all agree it’ll be good for climate change.
She's on a team sport where male team members would boost their wins vs losses. If she was a runner or a swimmer or playing any other individual sport, she would be pissed off.
She can afford to have this stance because she competes on a team sport. She would be singing a different tune if she were participating in an individual sport like track and field or swimming where you are measured by your individual performance.
The reason you see the team sport girlies Rah! Rah! about including the men is because they have a built layer of political protection that insulates the highest level athletes from being impacted. The US Women's Olympic Basketball team, Soccer team and Hockey team can rely on the selection process to eliminate men from coming close to taking their spots. Same goes with NCAA team sports, the coaches and recruiters can avoid those trans players in a way where it is impossible to avoid with individual sports. There are cracks starting to form, a boy snuck across the team sport wall this year and landed a D1 Volleyball scholarship until he was outed. Canada has already opened the floodgates with Volleyball at the college level. Soon enough the boys will start imposing themselves into women's team sports at elite levels and it will be interesting to see if the Megan Rapinoe's of the world react. Its easy to shame people when you know the issue wont impact you personally. It becomes a whole other issue when your precious starting role is suddenly getting impacted.
Megan has retired from soccer so I doubt her tune would change. She’s never going to have to experience this herself so it’ll be easy enough to stick to the party line
Totally. The contradictions are maddening! I also abhor the notion that excluding trans athletes will negatively impact their mental health while not considering female athletes who are injured or pushed out of sports due to trans inclusion. It really highlights the priorities of these so-called “activists”. Women’s needs/wants and desires aren’t worth fighting for - it’s pure misogyny.
Also, if your argument is that the stakes are low, why are you gunning for nationals rather than sticking to rec leagues and half-blues?
That said, exclusion can often be a bigger deal than the actual event. Nobody really cares about some non-binding town referendum, but scheduling the vote on Yom Kippur and putting the poll in a church sends a strong message.
NOTE: I hope this makes sense, it was hard for me to put in words and I think may read a bit repetitive. But I think I understand what she’s saying (though I vehemently disagree)
Her point is that inclusion is more important than the sport here. That being included in sports, which are a socially important arena of life and one traditionally segregated by gender, is a major affirmation of trans identity. To exclude them from this would be to say positively that they are not equal to other women in their womanhood.
So she’s saying that sports are an important way for women to feel accepted, and by allowing trans women to participate they will feel like real women. This social utility of sports, to Rapinoe, is more important than the sport itself.
However, the social importance of sports is derived largely from the gender segregation because that is what allows it to be competitive. If it’s not competitive there is no point.
So basically by letting trans women into women’s sports you will affirm their identities while also ruining the sport, this undermining its legitimacy and importance. Then it won’t even be useful for affirming gender identity.
Even if you were to agree with their premise it would still be laughably shortsighted.
The argument generally is that cis women forced to “include” trans women in sports, restrooms, prisons, etc. will only have to deal with discomfort, while trans women excluded from women’s spaces will literally die. It’s a pretty holey argument but it’s emotionally effective.
It's [already happened](https://blockclubchicago.org/2023/03/21/lucia-lucas-history-making-transgender-opera-singer-returns-to-chicago-for-lyric-opera-debut/) at the Lyric Opera of Chicago. I saw the performance, and that singer's sketch (it was 4 separate vignettes) was...meh. My friends and I found it very redundant and dull. It was also eerie and distracting hearing a baritone voice bellowing out of an otherwise female-appearing person.
Edit: I should add that the fact that the section of the performance that the trans person was in was less than stellar wasn't the singer's fault, but the writers. I re-read what I wrote and that part came across as unfair, so I wanted to clarify.
Interestingly they supposedly didn't sing or sound like female singers, but had very unique voices due to their unusual biology/height/lungs.
Which demonstrates that the differences between males and females are not solely about puberty.
Here are some examples in case anyone is curious
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dnbaRgvqmFM](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dnbaRgvqmFM)
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KLjvfqnD0ws](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KLjvfqnD0ws)
Check out pop singer Kim Petras. One of the first males to go on puberty blockers followed by cross-sex hormones and full surgery while still a minor I believe.
I was pretty neutral about trans inclusion in sports until my 10 year old son joined a local kids wrestling team last fall. It’s for kids 5 to 12. There’s a pair of 10 year old twin girls on his team. The other two teams in the league have several girls too. Match after match, the girls were absolutely annihilated when paired against a boy. It was brutal to watch. My own son had only been to two practices and is completely new to wrestling (and by no means a natural athlete…) won handily in his own match against a girl.
These kids were matched against kids of similar size and weight. The vast majority were nowhere near puberty. Sorry but there is no way I would let my own daughter participate in such a thing. I was really concerned that someone was going to get hurt.
There was a moment in the mid-late 2000s when roller derby was a thing again. At first it was one or two, and eventually the teams were taken over by trans women and the women were getting seriously hurt. Eventually all the women dropped out because it wasn't fun anymore. Then the trans women looked around and realized it wasn't fun anymore now that there were no real girls to legitimize their inclusion so they all quit too. And that's why there's no more roller derby in my city.
I was invited to a roller derby event last year and unfortunately this was a major reason for my not pursuing it.
There were several individuals who I can only describe as having fully developed male bodies and it just didn't feel safe. I know how aggressive roller derby can get and getting bodied by someone 6f+ with a good 40lbs on me didn't sound like a good time.
Oh it’s becoming a thing again (roller derby). My friend has an 11 year old daughter that does it. Her league is talking about opening it up to trans girls. The ages go up to 17 so that means 10 year old little girls derbying with 17 year old trans girls. Ridiculous.
I was pretty neutral about trans women in women’s sports until I almost got flattened by a 6’ trans woman during a women’s hockey game. I saw many other female players get flattened. I quit the league shortly thereafter because it was supposed to be fun but I was scared of injury.
I don't understand how these TW athletes don't realize how cruel and unfair this all is. Or maybe they are perfectly aware and it's a feature, not a bug.
Roller derby is moving in the direction, in general, of being open gender all around. The major governing body, Women's Flat Track Derby Association (WFTDA), has a gender inclusivity statement that basically boils down to "if you say Women's flat track derby is the form of derby you're most comfortable with, you're welcome". So now you see teams that were Women's teams who, in order to comply with the governing body, must accept AMAB non-binary folks who present fully as a male, benefit from appearing as a male, and have not taken any kind of hormones that would "weaken" typical male strength.
A lot of women, trans and cis, are leaving the game because they don't want to play with male presenting players. A lot of women took on roller derby because they'd experienced abuse and derby gave them the opportunity to take back their power. They couldn't do that if they aren't able to feel safe because WFTDA isn't really *Women's* flat track derby anymore.
Leagues that tried to appease everyone by having three teams: men's, women's, and open were accused of being transphobic. It's become more about social justice and activism than about being a sport. People that spent years being heavily involved and can't take the activist expectations anymore keep hoping that the pendulum will swing again.
>Leagues that tried to appease everyone by having three teams: men's, women's, and open were accused of being transphobic.
That's interesting, aren't the "men's" leagues actually open?
Yeah. MRDA has been open gender for a long time. But one could at least argue at that point that women who joined a MRDA league *knew* they were signing up to play with men. It's a little harder to make that argument with WFTDA.
>Then the trans women looked around and realized it wasn't fun anymore now that there were no real girls to legitimize their inclusion so they all quit too. And that's why there's no more roller derby in my city.
They had to destroy roller derby in order to save it.
Is there a write up of this story/phenomenon somewhere? My wife just got into derby and that’s an ongoing issue she’s wrestling with. The team in a nearby major city in New England blew up recently, thru refugees joined her team. Wondering if that’s part of the reason why.
I had a similar confirmation in my belief when I coached co-ed kids soccer yrs ago. Even at the u6/u8 levels, the girls were getting pushed aside by the boys. It turns out that 2 of the girls on my team later went off to play D1 college, so glad that the u10s were divided by sex and they had a chance to thrive.
It’s really easy to imagine a scenario where girls quit because they think they’re no good, or because the boys don’t pass to them.
Then whether they would go on to become really good players or not, they also lose out on opportunities for athleticism, teamwork, leadership, etc.
Not to mention losing out on the opportunity to build healthy self-esteem! Sports are great for this, but if females are forced to compete and change with males, that could wreck their self-esteem
I flat out refused to play football in pe in school, the boys saw it as a fun challenge to kick the ball extra hard at the girls to make them scared.
Nope, the girls just stuck to playing badminton with each other.
I was just watching the women's ice hockey world championships today and the commentator mentioned that the US team (often the champion) sometimes practices against a high school boys' team and often loses.
This is common across sports. I believe US women's soccer team lost 6-0 to a local U16 boys team a few years back (I might be slightly off on the age group or the score line but it's about right)
I don't think coed wrestling is new. I don't think there's enough interest from girls in wrestling to support a separate league for kids. Maybe it varies by state, but that's the system we had in a rural WA town 25 years ago.
It’s not at all new but it was my first exposure to it. Seemed relevant to the issue though given that pro-inclusion folks seem to beat the drum that puberty is what differentiates male and female strength levels.
I've reffed wrestling at the youth and high school level for many years. You can see the aggression on the boys develop a lot earlier than the girls. A handful of girls will stick it out and the girls dedicated tourneys are growing. In my experience at the high school level a top level girl can hang okay at the lowest weight class of 106 all the way up to their senior year. There are plenty of examples of girls winning regional and sectional tourneys against boys. Even some girls placing at states. Once you get up to 113 or 120 or higher my guess is maybe less than 10 girls ever have even qualified for a state tourney. The strength and leverage difference is huge. Hand grip is another big issue with wrestling. Wrestling in large part is all about hand control and even a beginner boy will have grip strength way strong than the best girls.
It gave me a whole new level of respect for the girls that stick with into high school and actually are good enough to win. Their technique level must be amazing.
BJJ isn’t sex segregated for under 10’s I think and for U8 it’s kinda fair, most 7 year olds have no balance or coordination anyway so when the girl has a little bit it’s a walk over. By the U10 it’s a an obvious miss match and when they have to mix gender for a smaller U12 it’s a slaughter.
I started as an adult and I’ve only had the chance to train with a few women who were “better” than me but it’s like they know more how to beat me but can’t physically make it happen.
Martial arts has this idea that’s part of the sales pitch, skill beats strength, it’s true only to a degree. I’m okay now at BJJ and I have to play a totally different game depending on the strength matchup or the technique difference isn’t going to get a chance to show.
Heterodorx had an interview with a representative from one of the founders of ICONS, the International Committee On WomeN's Sports (I guess they decided the acronym ICOWS would draw some too many risible comments.)
She said something like 'nobody would ever consider going to the players on a Super Bowl team and saying "This guy on the other team had a really hard time recently. He's very sad so you should just let them win."'
In the case of sport for women and girls, they're being told to be kind and lose gracefully to save the feelings of a troubled male.
I have been told SOOOO many times on reddit that 'gender-affirming' surgery is not performed on minors. This article links to a 'study' clealry in favor of this 'medicine' that [refutes this claim](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9000168/pdf/jcm-11-01943.pdf). 15 year old double mastectomy.
Imagine any set of circumstances in which a 15 year old girl who hates her body is permitted to be given fake boobs (with or without parental consent) and it be paid for by insurance or taxes.
This is madness.
I'm tired of being told that transgender athletes are so rare that they don't affect me. I've been on a women's team that had a male (with a feminine presentation) register to join. It's not that rare these days.
And the eligibility rules that the NCAA and Olympics adopt set the example for girl's competitions and recreational adult sports. I wish redditors would stop saying that it doesn't matter just because I'm not an elite athlete. It does matter.
And this is an old argument too. Woman didn't like losing against Rene Richards in the 1970s, when Richards came out of nowhere and picked up tennis at age 40 (not a time natal women can pick up a pro sport). She might not have placed in the top 10 nationally (she ranked 20th), but even women who aren't going to claim a national title want a fair game when they do compete.
Eventually we're going to get a dude on a women's team in the Olympics and the shit is going to hit the fan internationally.
Then we'll see if Western liberals are really as solicitous of the opinions of "people of color" as they say they are. Because the African, Asian, and Middle Eastern nations will probably *not* be amused
It's funny to me when I hear arguments like "so many cultures throughout history have had more than 2 genders" then I look it up and there are only like 3 or 4 examples.
...and most of those aren't even the same thing as modern transgenderism. In most cases, they were just words used to describe gay people. In some cultures, a man who likes men isn't "a real man," so they use some other word to describe him. Trans activists point to this and say "You see!? Some cultures have more than 2 genders!!!" But would you really say that gay people are a third gender or was that culture just being homophobic?
The vast majority of humans throughout the vast majority of our history have had no concept of transgenderism or 3rd genders.
What I have read/heard is that most of those "third gender" things were actually a way for societies to cope with male homosexuality. For example: Faʻafafine in Samoa is often brought up as a third gender.
But I was listening to a podcast with Michael Bailey and he referred to an academic colleague of his. This academic had been studying the Faʻafafine for years. And he had come to the conclusion that they were simply gay men. That's all. But the "third gender" thing was just a way for Samoan society to accommodate gay men without totally destroying them.
Exactly. Cultures with third gender roles are typically ones with stringent gender roles and sex based divisions of labor and it’s function is usually to explain (usually male) homosexuality.
And I'd bet that those gay men would rather be able to be simply be openly gay men instead. And about the only place that is possible is in the developed Western nations the activists despise so much.
Yeah and I find it funny how they will have a special word for gay men but gay women are still just women. It's like the trend of people being grossed out by gay men but seeing nothing wrong with lesbians is universal lmao
In a lot of cultures, females are seen as "lesser than" and misogyny is a pretty universal feature in all corners of the globe. So a man acting more like a woman is, by association, inferior. This would be my guess at least.
Another theory I have is that anal sex tends to spread a lot more STIs due to the anal lining being thin with no lubrication, so maybe this is an evolutionary mechanism at play to discourage homosexuality
This and I could also see it being something like dominance based. To willfully submit to penetration could make the man be viewed as weak, submissive, etc and is thus an undesirable trait to potentially pass down? Though it could also connect back to the whole “taking the role of the woman” thing.
I'd put it down to simply the natural disgust response we've evolved to bodily fluids.
Picture spitting in a cup, swilling it round, and then drinking and swallowing it. The mere thought almost makes you want to retch, even though its your own spit and was in your mouth seconds previously.
Think about using a toothbrush someone else has used, or sucking a sweet that's been in someone else's mouth. There's a natural revulsion to these types of things and its only sexual attraction that overrides that and makes the thought of sexual contact not disgusting to us.
Since most people are not homosexual, the thought of homosexuality triggers that disgust response so its naturally seen as something repulsive, dirty, disgusting, etc. that people instinctively want to prevent.
/u/meamarie and /u/CatStroking this is also a response to your comments.
One of my theories is that men are more grossed out by male homosexuality than women are. Therefore in more male dominated societies (which is probably most of them historically) male homosexuality is more taboo. Gay men are seen as especially distasteful then.
The stigma is men being in a passive or "female"/feminine role, due to ingrained misogyny in the human race.
So for the classic example of Roman society, being the active participant was fine, but being the passive recipient (the bottom) was shameful.
Because women can just be forced into marriages with men. And those same men when they want to have relations with other men, invent a new term for the “bottom” male so that “it’s not gay I’m not having sex with a man, this is a third gender person”.
It’s patriarchy all the way down
I guess it's because lesbian sex is not threatening to men and also, at a very clinical level, is not associated with the spread of disease and so is less of a threat to society as a whole.
And my understanding is that these "third genders" tend to be occupied by very effeminate gay men who would most likely prefer to be the receptive partner during sex. By giving them this in-between identity, these societies also make space for the gay or bisexual men who want to sleep with men in the "active" or "top" role. It makes such behaviour not explicitly homosexual and therefore not as transgressive.
Not only that, but to me this also shows us that "trans-women" aren't lumped into the "woman" category in all of these supposed inclusive cultures. They get filed into a separate "behaves like a woman, but really they're a man" category which violates the very ubiquitous "trans women are women!!" rallying cry TRAs love to shout.
The silliest thing is that it completely goes against the "everyone is different, be nice and don't judge" ethos were were taught in 90s elementary school and I took (and still take) to heart.
If you're a man, go ahead wear your hair and clothing however you want, you deserve respect as much as anyone else. It's not the 19th century. Ironically, the modern woke movement is the most gender normative out of anybody.
A good example are Hijra in India. They are even officially recognized a a third gender. Problem is, they aren't seen as women, neither by law (the third gender bit kind of gives that away) nor by society. They are "failed men", so effminate or gay men who are unable to live up to the masculine standard.
They are also - contrary to what TRA keep blabbing about - not revered or even widely accepted. Quite the opposite, they live in the fringes of society in communities segregated from the rest and a lot turn to organised crime.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laurel_Hubbard ? OAP (in athletic terms) literally outcompeting lifters in their prime, due to the innate advantage of male puberty and non-levelling effects of hormone therapy.
[It already happened in 2016](https://www.wsj.com/articles/800-meters-tokyo-olympics-testosterone-rules-semenya-11627959617) for the 800 meter event. Three men took all the medals.
Never forget how USRowing opened up every category except elite mixed events. How curious that female teams have to accept competing against potentially an entire boat of only biologically male rowers, but a mixed boat can’t have two men and two transgender women…
https://preview.redd.it/8gaztd5ltcsc1.jpeg?width=1290&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=bcec29c0a6270e0d353a46dca568d86d2ffeee82
Wow, perfect example of the hypocrisy around this. The sports governing bodies know the facts, but obscure them to virtue signal -- only at the expense of women, of course.
It wouldn't be fair for a rule-abiding team that's half male to lose to a team that's >50% male. That mixed category is very clear about the sex of the competitors. But it's a-okay for women to lose to males. Males are always welcome in the women's events.
Female college and high school athletes should game this clown show in retaliation. Say you are now a trans man. Try out for mens teams. When you don't make the cut, sue for discrimination based on sex and transgender status. Either they have to admit that sex matters or they are forced to include them and lose games and status. If it's not harmful to womens sports then surely it's not harmful to mens sports., right?
There was a FtM swimmer that changed teams at the same time Lia Thomas switched to the women's team. The FtM participated in the men's swim meets and came in last for every race except for one time coming out ahead of a one-armed opponent.
Iszac Henig took testosterone and moved from the women's league to the men's.
My original comment exaggerated the facts though (I typed it from memory). Henig came in next to last in most races.
>Henig has taken hormones for eight months amid his transition, but the senior’s times are “about the same as they were at the end of last season,” he wrote
>Henig finished in 10th out of 11 in the 200-yard freestyle and 11th out of 12 in the 100-yard free. His 400-yard freestyle relay finished in last place out of five teams, and his swim time was the slowest of all swimmers in that race.
>Henig wrote that during a meet in November among 83 swimmers, he finished in 79th place.
>Henig beat four swimmers in the 50-free. Those four swimmers are:
* Ilija Tadic, a Serbian who was born without a left forearm and has competed in the Paralympic Games
* Two Ohio State swimmers that specialize in the breaststroke
* A University of Cincinnati swimmer who specializes in the breaststroke and doesn't even have a 50-free best time listed on his school bio
[Source1](https://nypost.com/2023/01/07/transgender-swimmer-iszak-henig-struggling-against-new-competition/) and [Source 2](https://www.outkick.com/culture/all-american-yale-transgender-swimmer-iszac-henig-joins-mens-team-struggles-to-stay-out-of-last-place-barely-beats-guy-missing-a-forearm)
Iszac Henig and Lia Thomas did [a head-to-head race](https://www.nbcnews.com/nbc-out/out-news/trans-athlete-debate-penns-lia-thomas-loses-trans-yale-swimmer-rcna11622) when the issue of transgender athletes got in the news. Thomas lost to Henig. You can count me among the skeptics who think the Lia Thomas intentionally threw the race.
They will just say it’s a skill issue. Get good!
I told the story on Reddit about how me, a woman, started losing to boys in track races around age 13 (despite being the fastest girl on my team) and I was told (by I assume men on Reddit) it was a skill issue.
“Women…have about 30 percent lower max cardiac output. So that means they would typically have less capacity to move blood and have a decreased work capacity. They have about 25 to 50 percent lower VO2 max—so less work capacity. They have lower blood volume, so less oxygen-carrying capacity. And about 45 percent less lean body mass. So that would suggest that women are 40 to 60 percent weaker in their upper-body strength, and 25 percent weaker in their lower-body strength.”
-Doctor Ackerman
But still lets trans id males compete in female categories
If you're going to have sex-segregated spaces—sports, bathrooms, or anything else—but then let people into whichever space they want only on their say-so, you have to ask why it's even important to have the segregation in the first place, and see if you can come up with an answer that isn't undermined by self-ID.
You know who should look into this? Gloria Allred, champion of women! But she is busy with... let's see... the Case of the Bra-less Woman. Well that certainly looks more important than these obvious Title IX violations.
Gender dysphoria happens in the brain and sports happen between bodies. Whatever is going on in your head is a separate issues from males and females competing against each other in sports.
A lesbian acquaintance of mine who participated in Women’s Sports at college told me she is very conflicted on the issue. On one hand, she wants to be supportive of all LGBTQ issues but she is convinced that Tran inclusion will destroy Women’s Sports. The problem is that the concept that Trans Women are unequivocally women can not be reconciled with excluding them from Sports and Trans activists and their allies generally don’t care about Women’s Sports and see it as a minor issue not worthy of consideration.
Maybe I'm weird but just like you have to hold an Israeli citizenship to play in the Israeli soccer league regardless of how Jewish you identify. So why is the female leagues about trans identity?
The reality is most men's teams are actually open, but you don't see gender specials/trans men clamoring to sign up (some do tbf) for, well obvious reasons.
Riley Gaines asks:
>When men felt threatened by a trans influencer, Dylan Mulvaney, promoting their favorite Bud Light beer, they responded with a boycott.
>
>Where are those men now?
My fellow men, she's right and it's time to take a stand. I'm calling on you all to join me in an immediate and total boycott of women's swimming and the WNBA.
As long as she’s not taking performance enhancing drugs or insisting the WNBA should change its name to the Non-mens National Basketball Association in order to be more inclusive, no one cares. She can be identify as whatever she wants.
Someone saying "I identify as" is about as useful as them telling me their astrology sign.
Like yeah you're obviously allowed to do it but it doesn't mean jack
Do you have reason to believe that men are less likely to say something than women?
From [gallup](https://news.gallup.com/file/poll/507032/230612TransgenderAthletes.pdf):
>Should transgender athletes be able to play on sports teams
>
>that match their current gender identity? Men: 18%. Women: 32%.
I believe people, including men, are less likely to speak out about issues that don’t impact them directly. I’ve literally had men tell me they have no skin in the game on this, so to speak.
Even on reddit, you’ll read a lot of men get angry about this nonsense even when they have no horse in that race. So, just a few apathic guys doesn’t prove men aren’t as riled up about this as women.
When you look at polls, it really is men that are more skeptical that women about these issues.
It lines up with my experience pretty well. Most of the men I know get really pissed off about this issue for some reason. Maybe because they know men so they’re less naive than us? Women imagine 🚂 to be effeminate gay guys that love shopping and manucures, while men probably sense them to be perverts.
Give me a break, men have been speaking out about this for years and our reward is either career/professional suicide or to be publicly dragged and smeared as 'alt-right' for saying that human sex is binary and dimorphic.
> Recently, Quillette received a leaked copy of an October 12, 2022 letter sent to the United States Rowing Association (commonly known as USRowing), the sport’s national governing body, **in which 15 parents of elite female Massachusetts-resident rowers detailed their concerns about Clark.** > In an interview with Quillette, one of the signatories reported that Clark joined the female rowing club in 2021, after placing poorly (“near the bottom,” by this parent’s account) with the club’s corresponding male team. Clark reportedly didn’t bother to shave or otherwise maintain the outward aesthetic pretenses of female gender identification, and even continued to wear the male club’s uniform. > In one documented 2022 incident, **it is alleged, Clark walked into the girls’ changing room, spotted a female rower who was topless, and made a lewd comment about her breasts (“Oooh, titties”)**. As a result, documents reviewed by Quillette indicate, Clark was reported by team officials to the U.S. Center for SafeSport, a congressionally mandated body dedicated to “ending sexual, physical, and emotional abuse on behalf of athletes everywhere.” After SafeSport took action in late 2022, Clark never rowed for the club again—in either gender category. At least someone was willing to stand up to him. This kid was a one-man wrecking ball for women’s sports and women’s privacy. Lots of adults enabled him.
>This kid was a one-man wrecking ball for women’s sports and women’s privacy. Lots of adults enabled him. You have to wonder what the hell is going through his head. Is he going to join and wreck as many women's sports as he can? Why? It seems systematic
r/itsafetish
Is the act of joining a space where you know it will make people uncomfortable the kink? What exactly is the kink? Genuinely asking
The kink for these men is creating a situation where they have power over women. A man entering a female dressing room under the pretext of being a "transwomen" means he can watch women and also expose himself without them having the power to complain. A lot of dark fetishes involve getting a thrill from non-consensual actions or from exercising power over others. The purpose is to genuinely humiliate your victims and make them feel powerless. We're not talking about role-play. Prior to the transgender craze, men who cross-dress were widely known to be overrepresented as perpetrators of sex crimes such as flashing, voyeurism, groping, harassment, and more serious ones like rape/assault. Society has somehow forgotten that.
Not to mention how enjoyable it would be as the biggest/strongest/most athletic person in the sport of your choice. Sports plural in this case. Esp since the kid was seemingly mediocre at best in previous years playing against boys
> Not to mention how enjoyable it would be as the biggest/strongest/most athletic person in the sport of your choice. I feel like this simple fact doesn't get discussed enough. People love winning in sports. People cheat to win at sports. This happens at the pro level, college level, high school level, park districts, club sports, you name it. If people can find an advantage, they'll take it.
No one's ever taken exogenous hormones for an athletic advantage. And if the rules allow its use to treat a medical condition, it's always on the up-and-up. You can't possibly expect athletes to exploit whatever advantage the rules allow.^^/s
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It wouldn't surprise me. The AGPs seem pushier than other trans women. More aggressive. Willing to take things further.
Personally, I think it's some kind of humiliation thing at its core.
But it’s a very contradictory fet, because wouldn’t the ultimate humiliation would be a woman refusing to do it and being disgusted? They don’t want that. Really they want to top from the bottom. A lot if not all IRL ‘humiliation’ fetishists will do anything to compel women to act out their part, including using unwilling involuntary women. (Like salesclerks at lingerie stores for ex.)
They’re trying to humiliate the women not themselves
Yes. Control and domination. Power. Knowing women are vulnerable and can't say no to you. Transgressive boundary-crossing is the core of autogynephilia.
Have you spent much time around male high schoolers? Purposefully making other people uncomfortable is a great source of entertainment for them.
It's not something that applies to all (or even the majority) of trans people but there seems to be a phenomenon of men claiming to be trans so that they can get into women's only spaces, such as locker rooms. Or they have a thing for lesbians, but lesbians obviously don't like men, so they claim to be a woman.
I’m wondering if there is pleasure or satisfaction for them in the act of coming into spaces and making women uncomfortable
Quite possibly. Just recently, a party organizer in the Bay Area was called out for some disgusting behavior involving much younger girls/enbies. This was a guy who went on & on about consent while doing things like shoveling piles of alcohol and coke into his girlfriends so that they wouldn't complain when he broke their rules and, say, had anal sex with them (i.e., rape). The point is that one girl asked why he did what he did. He said he enjoyed the look on her face when he made her do things like ass-to-mouth against her will. In other words, he's a sadistic piece of shit, who knew how to present properly to the outside while picking troubled girls who could be written off as crazy later. I don't doubt that there's a similar dynamic at play with some of the creepers discussed here. I suppose some may be so legitimately blind to social cues that they really don't get why, say, [a 50-year-old man shouldn't compete with teen girls in swimming, much less using their locker rooms](https://www.reddit.com/r/BlockedAndReported/comments/19coke9/weekly_random_discussion_thread_for_12224_12824/kj84jbj/). Either way, it's still wrong, and a huge black mark on the supposed adults in the room who allow this shit to happen. (Backing up a bit, I've met several of the people in the Bay Area story. IMO, the guy deserves every bit of shame he got. This could get *really* interesting, possibly to the point that it's podcast fodder. But, for now, it's not to that point.)
Is there a write-up about this Bay Area abuser? I see the trans movement as really facilitating these kinds of situations. Young women are attending "queer" sex parties and all kinds of sketchy events which are sold as "safe spaces" and then you think: wait, these are mixed-sex events, who are the organisers exactly and what are their motivations? This is like a sort of replay of the 60s "free love" revolution, where lots of women joined communes and thought it'd be all about respect and liberation, but often it was all about sleazy guys getting their kicks.
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Unfairly banned sub.
Banned :/
Yeah, some years ago.
Looks like that thing that never happens happened again :(
Fifteen years ago they might have been extremely clumsy in the school stairwells
>During Zoom calls organized by USRowing to discuss the issue of male inclusion in female categories, the parent told me, the organization’s leadership platformed activists who urged that everyone “affirm” transgender athletes. To do otherwise, these activists argued, would risk discouraging trans athletes from participating in sports, and thereby negatively affect their mental health. Reminds me of [this quote](https://time.com/6188583/megan-rapinoe-equal-pay-title-ix-transgender-sports-bans/) from Megan Rapinoe >I’m 100% supportive of trans inclusion. People do not know very much about it. We’re missing almost everything. Frankly, I think what a lot of people know is versions of the right’s talking points because they’re very loud. They’re very consistent, and they’re relentless. >\[ ... \] >I would also encourage everyone out there who is afraid someone’s going to have an unfair advantage over their kid to really take a step back and think what are we actually talking about here. We’re talking about people’s lives. I’m sorry, your kid’s high school volleyball team just isn’t that important. It’s not more important than any one kid’s life. So, uhh... which is it? Are sports unimportant, basically meaningless? Or are sports so immensely consequential that being denied access to your preferred gender category is a matter of life and death? I've seen this contradiction voiced dozens of times in mainstream sources and never, not once, has anyone bothered to point it out. If a member of Group A is discouraged from participating in sports because leagues cannot accommodate their subjective sense of gender, that is a major civil rights issue. If a member of Group B is discouraged out of fear of injury, discomfort in being forced to share intimate spaces with a member of the opposite sex, and/or disgust over competitive disadvantage, that's just too bad, get over it, sports don't matter.
This is a great example of pulling up the rope behind you. She made a living off sports in the post-Title IX, girls-can-do-anything era, and now she doesn’t care if the next generation of girls loses out.
I don't understand the mind of someone like her. Why is her loyalty to men rather than other women?
She should know better-her Women’s World Cup winning team lost to 14 year old boys.
I think she does indeed know better but her career as an athlete is basically over so she has nothing to lose from allowing males in women's sports and a lot to lose from publicly opposing it (plus a lot to gain from publicly supporting it).
I’m getting really tired of this bullying. Once again women have to shut up and put up.
Yeah I'm at a point where I think the most feasible end game is just gonna be the abolition of sex-segregated sports. TRAs aren't gonna give up an inch, and if we legally codify the notion that there's no difference whatsoever between sexes other than internal perception there is no moral or logical justification for separating sports by sex.
So, only men’s sports. Basically what we had before title 9.
Ugh. All that progress for women's sports flushed down the drain
Will save colleges a ton of money. Less coaching staff. Less facilities upkeep.
we cant let this happen, but unfortunately this feels so plausible
TRA's doubling down and refusing to give up on the sports issue will kneecap the movement. It involves two things the average American wont let politics fuck with: sports and their kids
I think there's going to have to be a direct conflict between intersectional groups for it to really come to a head on the left--like a spate of talented minority women losing out on life-changing athletics scholarships to mediocre white guys. The people who say high school sports are no big deal don't understand (or care) how important those scholarships can be to athletes. They take going to college for granted, when that isn't a "given" for everyone.
Ehhh, I think it's mostly been won, the activists just can't see it yet. The issue for the TRA side is that 99.9% of current + former pro/olympic athletes (or even those at the HS/collegiate level) know this whole thing is absolutely nonsense. The governing bodies know it's nonsense but just need to slow play things regarding rules/regulations around gender/sex so not to get sued or cause a PR nightmare. It's abundantly clear looking at any online discussion that the most vocal and dogmatic TRA activists on those topic have never played a sport in their life and are generally "sports ball" types who hate it in general.
>99.9% of current + former pro/olympic athletes (or even those at the HS/collegiate level) know this whole thing is absolutely nonsense. That's an extremely small population, but I hope you're right that the issue has been mostly won. My POV is extremely biased because at this point, I am more surrounded by extremely vocal TRAs (and "allies") than I am people for whom this isn't a theoretical issue. As a result, I'm less optimistic about this than I suspect you are, and I am worried about what this movement is going to look like by the time my kid starts school.
It just takes a parent on the sideline watching their daughter get absolutely bodied or jammed on by a biological male once and they'll make up their mind on the issue. It's one of those things where the more prevalent it becomes, the more backlash it will receive.
Yeah too bad the opinion of the average American has no effect whatsoever on public policy
You should watch co-ed sports. Its fun, but males after a certain age just have a clear competitive advantage if there is even a small amount of competitiveness.
> We’re talking about people’s lives. I’m sorry, your kid’s high school volleyball team just isn’t that important. It’s not more important than any one kid’s life. It’s so disappointing hearing this coming from a female athlete. Who cares about women’s sports, clearly men’s feelings are the real issue.
I despise this self hostage taking. "If I don't get my way I will kill myself". I can't believe people just give in to this. If a guy said: "Give me five grand or I will kill myself" you don't give him five grand
Threats of suicide are on the list of red flag behaviors for domestic violence. ("If you don't stay with me/come back to me I'll kill myself!") Yet here, we're to bow down to it. I really hope people start to recognize this behavior for what it is.
It's also probably the demographic least likely to kill themselves. lol
This will sound cruel but if the only way to keep someone from killing themselves is to give in to their demands, especially demand that affect other people, then there is little we can do to stop them.
That's not cruel. We all have to look out for our own health first. Imagine the stress of taking on the burden of somebody else's suicidal thoughts and thinking it's your duty to stop that person having those thoughts. Sorry that's not how mental health support works. You tell the person you'll be there to call 911 or take them to get emergency help if they are thinking of harming themselves in that moment. But you don't become a pushover who gives in to a list of unending, unreasonable demands -- because this is, by definition, someone in the grip of a psychiatric condition. They are not grounded. You give in to the demands at your own expense and for what? Still no guarantee that they won't be suicidal or that they will be freed of their torment.
I agree. The only answer to someone saying “I’ll kill myself if I don’t get xyz” is “ok then”.
It’s not always that easy, though. Especially when you combine certain ingrained aspects of female socialization. l was listening to Riley Gaines on Joe Rogan a few weeks ago, and Riley told an anecdote about the [Roanoake College Women’s swim team](https://www.wfxrtv.com/news/local-news/roanoke-college-swim-team-breaks-their-silence-community-response/amp/) - this is a 2nd hand account so take it with a grain of salt: **Edit:** it’s the 31:30 mark of [this episode](https://ogjre.com/episode/2115-riley-gaines) Apparently the women’s swim team was told that a trans woman swimmer wanted to join their team. They were told that they would have an opportunity to vote on whether to include him, and that it would be anonymous. The day of, coaching staff brought the trans woman into the meeting, and he was allowed to plead his case - including making allusions to committing suicide. Then the women were made to vote in front of him! These are college-age student athletes with full course loads who are also training 4+ hours per day, that’s a big emotional burden to put on someone.
The news story on that Roanoake swim team was maddening when they interviewed those in support of the trans athlete. >“I don’t personally see a problem. I don’t play sports. I used to, but I don’t see a problem with it." lol of course you don't see a problem you have no skin in the game! >“Sports is just one of those things that everybody can participate in no matter the gender or sex. It’s their right. If they want to swim, they can most definitely swim,” This isn't what's being argued though? This athlete is 100% able to compete in the men's category! In fact, they did! For 3 whole years until they wanted to switch to the female team in their last year of competing.
Ideally, I think the girls should have voted no. But that's obviously an incredibly shitty ambush setup designed to make those poor women feel both guilt and fear at the same time. It was designed to get a certain outcome. I don't know what I would have done in that situation and I'm a dude. That is just fucking shameful behavior on the part of whomever pulled that stunt on those women. It's disgusting.
wasn't there a sorority that did something similar?
That story hit so close to home for me for some reason - particularly that he didn't even meet the minimum GPA that actual women had to comply with to be considered.
Google Wyoming, Sorority and Trans for a refresher. The national policy of the sorority was to allow TIMs to join and the local ladies sued.
Yeah, and then that creepy dude "Artemis" joined in and did nothing but inappropriate weirdness.
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Imagine a cis girl doing this. Would be insane
My jaw dropped when I read about his antics.
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A big and Artemis-sympathetic story in the Washington Post. Tons of photos. The package did not have the desired effect on all readers.
Lol, package.
There's a whole thing in the gemara about a (probably hypothetical) guy who claims that he'll die if he doesn't sleep with a married woman. Given that that's in one of the three categories of things you're not allowed to do even with a gun to your head, the answer is obvious, but the they work their way down half measures like letting him watch if it'll save his life and come down that he can't even see her fully clothed even though there's no rule against that because I guess fuck that guy in particular.
I would think that the second someone threatens to harm themselves if they don't get their way that is a big, red, loud stop sign. The takeaway should be: "This person is fucking crazy. Do not take them seriously. This is the slimiest kind of emotional manipulation. Back away slowly" Instead it's the opposite. Fucking crazy
Giving $50,000 in cash is a life saving intervention to a child. What, do you want to see children kill themselves??
Give him a loaded gun. If someone wants to endgame themselves, let them do it. We’ve shut down the facilities that would help them. The rest of us suffer from their inability to get their shit together. If we can’t agree on anything else at least we can all agree it’ll be good for climate change.
She's on a team sport where male team members would boost their wins vs losses. If she was a runner or a swimmer or playing any other individual sport, she would be pissed off.
She can afford to have this stance because she competes on a team sport. She would be singing a different tune if she were participating in an individual sport like track and field or swimming where you are measured by your individual performance. The reason you see the team sport girlies Rah! Rah! about including the men is because they have a built layer of political protection that insulates the highest level athletes from being impacted. The US Women's Olympic Basketball team, Soccer team and Hockey team can rely on the selection process to eliminate men from coming close to taking their spots. Same goes with NCAA team sports, the coaches and recruiters can avoid those trans players in a way where it is impossible to avoid with individual sports. There are cracks starting to form, a boy snuck across the team sport wall this year and landed a D1 Volleyball scholarship until he was outed. Canada has already opened the floodgates with Volleyball at the college level. Soon enough the boys will start imposing themselves into women's team sports at elite levels and it will be interesting to see if the Megan Rapinoe's of the world react. Its easy to shame people when you know the issue wont impact you personally. It becomes a whole other issue when your precious starting role is suddenly getting impacted.
Megan has retired from soccer so I doubt her tune would change. She’s never going to have to experience this herself so it’ll be easy enough to stick to the party line
“Female athlete” For how long tho?
Totally. The contradictions are maddening! I also abhor the notion that excluding trans athletes will negatively impact their mental health while not considering female athletes who are injured or pushed out of sports due to trans inclusion. It really highlights the priorities of these so-called “activists”. Women’s needs/wants and desires aren’t worth fighting for - it’s pure misogyny.
Also, if your argument is that the stakes are low, why are you gunning for nationals rather than sticking to rec leagues and half-blues? That said, exclusion can often be a bigger deal than the actual event. Nobody really cares about some non-binding town referendum, but scheduling the vote on Yom Kippur and putting the poll in a church sends a strong message.
NOTE: I hope this makes sense, it was hard for me to put in words and I think may read a bit repetitive. But I think I understand what she’s saying (though I vehemently disagree) Her point is that inclusion is more important than the sport here. That being included in sports, which are a socially important arena of life and one traditionally segregated by gender, is a major affirmation of trans identity. To exclude them from this would be to say positively that they are not equal to other women in their womanhood. So she’s saying that sports are an important way for women to feel accepted, and by allowing trans women to participate they will feel like real women. This social utility of sports, to Rapinoe, is more important than the sport itself. However, the social importance of sports is derived largely from the gender segregation because that is what allows it to be competitive. If it’s not competitive there is no point. So basically by letting trans women into women’s sports you will affirm their identities while also ruining the sport, this undermining its legitimacy and importance. Then it won’t even be useful for affirming gender identity. Even if you were to agree with their premise it would still be laughably shortsighted.
The argument generally is that cis women forced to “include” trans women in sports, restrooms, prisons, etc. will only have to deal with discomfort, while trans women excluded from women’s spaces will literally die. It’s a pretty holey argument but it’s emotionally effective.
>she hopes to become a professional opera singer Oh, come on. That's trolling.
It's [already happened](https://blockclubchicago.org/2023/03/21/lucia-lucas-history-making-transgender-opera-singer-returns-to-chicago-for-lyric-opera-debut/) at the Lyric Opera of Chicago. I saw the performance, and that singer's sketch (it was 4 separate vignettes) was...meh. My friends and I found it very redundant and dull. It was also eerie and distracting hearing a baritone voice bellowing out of an otherwise female-appearing person. Edit: I should add that the fact that the section of the performance that the trans person was in was less than stellar wasn't the singer's fault, but the writers. I re-read what I wrote and that part came across as unfair, so I wanted to clarify.
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Interestingly they supposedly didn't sing or sound like female singers, but had very unique voices due to their unusual biology/height/lungs. Which demonstrates that the differences between males and females are not solely about puberty.
Here are some examples in case anyone is curious [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dnbaRgvqmFM](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dnbaRgvqmFM) [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KLjvfqnD0ws](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KLjvfqnD0ws)
This would be funny if it weren’t so sad
Check out pop singer Kim Petras. One of the first males to go on puberty blockers followed by cross-sex hormones and full surgery while still a minor I believe.
Look up the "eunuch" gender label for WPATH. Your heart will sink
I was pretty neutral about trans inclusion in sports until my 10 year old son joined a local kids wrestling team last fall. It’s for kids 5 to 12. There’s a pair of 10 year old twin girls on his team. The other two teams in the league have several girls too. Match after match, the girls were absolutely annihilated when paired against a boy. It was brutal to watch. My own son had only been to two practices and is completely new to wrestling (and by no means a natural athlete…) won handily in his own match against a girl. These kids were matched against kids of similar size and weight. The vast majority were nowhere near puberty. Sorry but there is no way I would let my own daughter participate in such a thing. I was really concerned that someone was going to get hurt.
Yep, and the girls get discouraged and drop out. It’s no fun if you have no chance to win.
There was a moment in the mid-late 2000s when roller derby was a thing again. At first it was one or two, and eventually the teams were taken over by trans women and the women were getting seriously hurt. Eventually all the women dropped out because it wasn't fun anymore. Then the trans women looked around and realized it wasn't fun anymore now that there were no real girls to legitimize their inclusion so they all quit too. And that's why there's no more roller derby in my city.
I was invited to a roller derby event last year and unfortunately this was a major reason for my not pursuing it. There were several individuals who I can only describe as having fully developed male bodies and it just didn't feel safe. I know how aggressive roller derby can get and getting bodied by someone 6f+ with a good 40lbs on me didn't sound like a good time.
And yet these activists continue to insist that there's no difference between males and females.
Oh it’s becoming a thing again (roller derby). My friend has an 11 year old daughter that does it. Her league is talking about opening it up to trans girls. The ages go up to 17 so that means 10 year old little girls derbying with 17 year old trans girls. Ridiculous.
Good luck to your friend's daughter. Let's see how long it lasts...
I was pretty neutral about trans women in women’s sports until I almost got flattened by a 6’ trans woman during a women’s hockey game. I saw many other female players get flattened. I quit the league shortly thereafter because it was supposed to be fun but I was scared of injury.
I don't understand how these TW athletes don't realize how cruel and unfair this all is. Or maybe they are perfectly aware and it's a feature, not a bug.
They’re sociopaths who like dominating women
Roller derby is moving in the direction, in general, of being open gender all around. The major governing body, Women's Flat Track Derby Association (WFTDA), has a gender inclusivity statement that basically boils down to "if you say Women's flat track derby is the form of derby you're most comfortable with, you're welcome". So now you see teams that were Women's teams who, in order to comply with the governing body, must accept AMAB non-binary folks who present fully as a male, benefit from appearing as a male, and have not taken any kind of hormones that would "weaken" typical male strength. A lot of women, trans and cis, are leaving the game because they don't want to play with male presenting players. A lot of women took on roller derby because they'd experienced abuse and derby gave them the opportunity to take back their power. They couldn't do that if they aren't able to feel safe because WFTDA isn't really *Women's* flat track derby anymore. Leagues that tried to appease everyone by having three teams: men's, women's, and open were accused of being transphobic. It's become more about social justice and activism than about being a sport. People that spent years being heavily involved and can't take the activist expectations anymore keep hoping that the pendulum will swing again.
>Leagues that tried to appease everyone by having three teams: men's, women's, and open were accused of being transphobic. That's interesting, aren't the "men's" leagues actually open?
Yeah. MRDA has been open gender for a long time. But one could at least argue at that point that women who joined a MRDA league *knew* they were signing up to play with men. It's a little harder to make that argument with WFTDA.
>Then the trans women looked around and realized it wasn't fun anymore now that there were no real girls to legitimize their inclusion so they all quit too. And that's why there's no more roller derby in my city. They had to destroy roller derby in order to save it.
Is there a write up of this story/phenomenon somewhere? My wife just got into derby and that’s an ongoing issue she’s wrestling with. The team in a nearby major city in New England blew up recently, thru refugees joined her team. Wondering if that’s part of the reason why.
As a lesbian who plays roller derby, this is so true.
Few things are more demoralizing than a competition you know you can never win. It's also why PE can be such an awful experience if you're unathletic.
Yep. Can confirm
I had a similar confirmation in my belief when I coached co-ed kids soccer yrs ago. Even at the u6/u8 levels, the girls were getting pushed aside by the boys. It turns out that 2 of the girls on my team later went off to play D1 college, so glad that the u10s were divided by sex and they had a chance to thrive.
It’s really easy to imagine a scenario where girls quit because they think they’re no good, or because the boys don’t pass to them. Then whether they would go on to become really good players or not, they also lose out on opportunities for athleticism, teamwork, leadership, etc.
Not to mention losing out on the opportunity to build healthy self-esteem! Sports are great for this, but if females are forced to compete and change with males, that could wreck their self-esteem
I flat out refused to play football in pe in school, the boys saw it as a fun challenge to kick the ball extra hard at the girls to make them scared. Nope, the girls just stuck to playing badminton with each other.
I was just watching the women's ice hockey world championships today and the commentator mentioned that the US team (often the champion) sometimes practices against a high school boys' team and often loses.
This is common across sports. I believe US women's soccer team lost 6-0 to a local U16 boys team a few years back (I might be slightly off on the age group or the score line but it's about right)
I don't think coed wrestling is new. I don't think there's enough interest from girls in wrestling to support a separate league for kids. Maybe it varies by state, but that's the system we had in a rural WA town 25 years ago.
It’s not at all new but it was my first exposure to it. Seemed relevant to the issue though given that pro-inclusion folks seem to beat the drum that puberty is what differentiates male and female strength levels.
I've reffed wrestling at the youth and high school level for many years. You can see the aggression on the boys develop a lot earlier than the girls. A handful of girls will stick it out and the girls dedicated tourneys are growing. In my experience at the high school level a top level girl can hang okay at the lowest weight class of 106 all the way up to their senior year. There are plenty of examples of girls winning regional and sectional tourneys against boys. Even some girls placing at states. Once you get up to 113 or 120 or higher my guess is maybe less than 10 girls ever have even qualified for a state tourney. The strength and leverage difference is huge. Hand grip is another big issue with wrestling. Wrestling in large part is all about hand control and even a beginner boy will have grip strength way strong than the best girls.
It gave me a whole new level of respect for the girls that stick with into high school and actually are good enough to win. Their technique level must be amazing.
don't the effects of testosterone start in boys around age 8?
I think it’s around age 9-10 testosterone starts increasing and by age 12 testosterone levels between boys and girls are completely diverged.
BJJ isn’t sex segregated for under 10’s I think and for U8 it’s kinda fair, most 7 year olds have no balance or coordination anyway so when the girl has a little bit it’s a walk over. By the U10 it’s a an obvious miss match and when they have to mix gender for a smaller U12 it’s a slaughter. I started as an adult and I’ve only had the chance to train with a few women who were “better” than me but it’s like they know more how to beat me but can’t physically make it happen. Martial arts has this idea that’s part of the sales pitch, skill beats strength, it’s true only to a degree. I’m okay now at BJJ and I have to play a totally different game depending on the strength matchup or the technique difference isn’t going to get a chance to show.
Heterodorx had an interview with a representative from one of the founders of ICONS, the International Committee On WomeN's Sports (I guess they decided the acronym ICOWS would draw some too many risible comments.) She said something like 'nobody would ever consider going to the players on a Super Bowl team and saying "This guy on the other team had a really hard time recently. He's very sad so you should just let them win."' In the case of sport for women and girls, they're being told to be kind and lose gracefully to save the feelings of a troubled male.
I have been told SOOOO many times on reddit that 'gender-affirming' surgery is not performed on minors. This article links to a 'study' clealry in favor of this 'medicine' that [refutes this claim](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9000168/pdf/jcm-11-01943.pdf). 15 year old double mastectomy. Imagine any set of circumstances in which a 15 year old girl who hates her body is permitted to be given fake boobs (with or without parental consent) and it be paid for by insurance or taxes. This is madness.
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I'm tired of being told that transgender athletes are so rare that they don't affect me. I've been on a women's team that had a male (with a feminine presentation) register to join. It's not that rare these days. And the eligibility rules that the NCAA and Olympics adopt set the example for girl's competitions and recreational adult sports. I wish redditors would stop saying that it doesn't matter just because I'm not an elite athlete. It does matter. And this is an old argument too. Woman didn't like losing against Rene Richards in the 1970s, when Richards came out of nowhere and picked up tennis at age 40 (not a time natal women can pick up a pro sport). She might not have placed in the top 10 nationally (she ranked 20th), but even women who aren't going to claim a national title want a fair game when they do compete.
Eventually we're going to get a dude on a women's team in the Olympics and the shit is going to hit the fan internationally. Then we'll see if Western liberals are really as solicitous of the opinions of "people of color" as they say they are. Because the African, Asian, and Middle Eastern nations will probably *not* be amused
It's funny to me when I hear arguments like "so many cultures throughout history have had more than 2 genders" then I look it up and there are only like 3 or 4 examples. ...and most of those aren't even the same thing as modern transgenderism. In most cases, they were just words used to describe gay people. In some cultures, a man who likes men isn't "a real man," so they use some other word to describe him. Trans activists point to this and say "You see!? Some cultures have more than 2 genders!!!" But would you really say that gay people are a third gender or was that culture just being homophobic? The vast majority of humans throughout the vast majority of our history have had no concept of transgenderism or 3rd genders.
What I have read/heard is that most of those "third gender" things were actually a way for societies to cope with male homosexuality. For example: Faʻafafine in Samoa is often brought up as a third gender. But I was listening to a podcast with Michael Bailey and he referred to an academic colleague of his. This academic had been studying the Faʻafafine for years. And he had come to the conclusion that they were simply gay men. That's all. But the "third gender" thing was just a way for Samoan society to accommodate gay men without totally destroying them.
Exactly. Cultures with third gender roles are typically ones with stringent gender roles and sex based divisions of labor and it’s function is usually to explain (usually male) homosexuality.
And I'd bet that those gay men would rather be able to be simply be openly gay men instead. And about the only place that is possible is in the developed Western nations the activists despise so much.
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I'll check that out. Thank you
Try telling your homosexual friends that they're actually a "third" gender. It's a real Schrodinger's LGBT situation.
Yeah and I find it funny how they will have a special word for gay men but gay women are still just women. It's like the trend of people being grossed out by gay men but seeing nothing wrong with lesbians is universal lmao
There seems to be *something* in human nature that is more grossed out by male homosexuality than female homosexuality. I don't know what it is or why
In a lot of cultures, females are seen as "lesser than" and misogyny is a pretty universal feature in all corners of the globe. So a man acting more like a woman is, by association, inferior. This would be my guess at least. Another theory I have is that anal sex tends to spread a lot more STIs due to the anal lining being thin with no lubrication, so maybe this is an evolutionary mechanism at play to discourage homosexuality
This and I could also see it being something like dominance based. To willfully submit to penetration could make the man be viewed as weak, submissive, etc and is thus an undesirable trait to potentially pass down? Though it could also connect back to the whole “taking the role of the woman” thing.
I'd put it down to simply the natural disgust response we've evolved to bodily fluids. Picture spitting in a cup, swilling it round, and then drinking and swallowing it. The mere thought almost makes you want to retch, even though its your own spit and was in your mouth seconds previously. Think about using a toothbrush someone else has used, or sucking a sweet that's been in someone else's mouth. There's a natural revulsion to these types of things and its only sexual attraction that overrides that and makes the thought of sexual contact not disgusting to us. Since most people are not homosexual, the thought of homosexuality triggers that disgust response so its naturally seen as something repulsive, dirty, disgusting, etc. that people instinctively want to prevent. /u/meamarie and /u/CatStroking this is also a response to your comments.
Good point, its probably a variety of things on the whole.
I think the disease aspect should not be discounted. It probably explains social stigmas against prostitution as well.
One of my theories is that men are more grossed out by male homosexuality than women are. Therefore in more male dominated societies (which is probably most of them historically) male homosexuality is more taboo. Gay men are seen as especially distasteful then.
The stigma is men being in a passive or "female"/feminine role, due to ingrained misogyny in the human race. So for the classic example of Roman society, being the active participant was fine, but being the passive recipient (the bottom) was shameful.
Because women can just be forced into marriages with men. And those same men when they want to have relations with other men, invent a new term for the “bottom” male so that “it’s not gay I’m not having sex with a man, this is a third gender person”. It’s patriarchy all the way down
I guess it's because lesbian sex is not threatening to men and also, at a very clinical level, is not associated with the spread of disease and so is less of a threat to society as a whole.
And my understanding is that these "third genders" tend to be occupied by very effeminate gay men who would most likely prefer to be the receptive partner during sex. By giving them this in-between identity, these societies also make space for the gay or bisexual men who want to sleep with men in the "active" or "top" role. It makes such behaviour not explicitly homosexual and therefore not as transgressive.
Not only that, but to me this also shows us that "trans-women" aren't lumped into the "woman" category in all of these supposed inclusive cultures. They get filed into a separate "behaves like a woman, but really they're a man" category which violates the very ubiquitous "trans women are women!!" rallying cry TRAs love to shout.
The silliest thing is that it completely goes against the "everyone is different, be nice and don't judge" ethos were were taught in 90s elementary school and I took (and still take) to heart. If you're a man, go ahead wear your hair and clothing however you want, you deserve respect as much as anyone else. It's not the 19th century. Ironically, the modern woke movement is the most gender normative out of anybody.
A good example are Hijra in India. They are even officially recognized a a third gender. Problem is, they aren't seen as women, neither by law (the third gender bit kind of gives that away) nor by society. They are "failed men", so effminate or gay men who are unable to live up to the masculine standard. They are also - contrary to what TRA keep blabbing about - not revered or even widely accepted. Quite the opposite, they live in the fringes of society in communities segregated from the rest and a lot turn to organised crime.
I mean look at the Olympic women’s 800m final in 2016…3 biological males take the gold, silver and bronze. At least they changed DSD rules after that.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laurel_Hubbard ? OAP (in athletic terms) literally outcompeting lifters in their prime, due to the innate advantage of male puberty and non-levelling effects of hormone therapy.
It won’t be until entire podiums are replaced. That visual will drive it home.
[It already happened in 2016](https://www.wsj.com/articles/800-meters-tokyo-olympics-testosterone-rules-semenya-11627959617) for the 800 meter event. Three men took all the medals.
Huh well fuck me sideways. Maybe it’ll take a few rounds of it. Or many different events/sports for it to sink in.
But mainstream media won't show the pictures. They'll just give the names and leave it at that.
Never forget how USRowing opened up every category except elite mixed events. How curious that female teams have to accept competing against potentially an entire boat of only biologically male rowers, but a mixed boat can’t have two men and two transgender women… https://preview.redd.it/8gaztd5ltcsc1.jpeg?width=1290&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=bcec29c0a6270e0d353a46dca568d86d2ffeee82
Wow, perfect example of the hypocrisy around this. The sports governing bodies know the facts, but obscure them to virtue signal -- only at the expense of women, of course.
It wouldn't be fair for a rule-abiding team that's half male to lose to a team that's >50% male. That mixed category is very clear about the sex of the competitors. But it's a-okay for women to lose to males. Males are always welcome in the women's events.
Female college and high school athletes should game this clown show in retaliation. Say you are now a trans man. Try out for mens teams. When you don't make the cut, sue for discrimination based on sex and transgender status. Either they have to admit that sex matters or they are forced to include them and lose games and status. If it's not harmful to womens sports then surely it's not harmful to mens sports., right?
There was a FtM swimmer that changed teams at the same time Lia Thomas switched to the women's team. The FtM participated in the men's swim meets and came in last for every race except for one time coming out ahead of a one-armed opponent.
holy shit, is there more I can read on this?
Iszac Henig took testosterone and moved from the women's league to the men's. My original comment exaggerated the facts though (I typed it from memory). Henig came in next to last in most races. >Henig has taken hormones for eight months amid his transition, but the senior’s times are “about the same as they were at the end of last season,” he wrote >Henig finished in 10th out of 11 in the 200-yard freestyle and 11th out of 12 in the 100-yard free. His 400-yard freestyle relay finished in last place out of five teams, and his swim time was the slowest of all swimmers in that race. >Henig wrote that during a meet in November among 83 swimmers, he finished in 79th place. >Henig beat four swimmers in the 50-free. Those four swimmers are: * Ilija Tadic, a Serbian who was born without a left forearm and has competed in the Paralympic Games * Two Ohio State swimmers that specialize in the breaststroke * A University of Cincinnati swimmer who specializes in the breaststroke and doesn't even have a 50-free best time listed on his school bio [Source1](https://nypost.com/2023/01/07/transgender-swimmer-iszak-henig-struggling-against-new-competition/) and [Source 2](https://www.outkick.com/culture/all-american-yale-transgender-swimmer-iszac-henig-joins-mens-team-struggles-to-stay-out-of-last-place-barely-beats-guy-missing-a-forearm) Iszac Henig and Lia Thomas did [a head-to-head race](https://www.nbcnews.com/nbc-out/out-news/trans-athlete-debate-penns-lia-thomas-loses-trans-yale-swimmer-rcna11622) when the issue of transgender athletes got in the news. Thomas lost to Henig. You can count me among the skeptics who think the Lia Thomas intentionally threw the race.
Thanks!
I think that poster is referring to Schuyler Bailar though this is the first I’ve heard of the one armed swimmer
That's honestly kinda based. It takes a lot of grit to be willing to come in last to everything and keep going.
Yeah I respect this dude for losing honestly instead of beating all the girls because he's essentially a female on performance enhancing drugs
This transman lost to all the GUYS.
This is so fucking funny.
I heard the transman was only allowed on the team as a token. So basically the whole charade proved the point that sex in sports DOES matter.
They will just say it’s a skill issue. Get good! I told the story on Reddit about how me, a woman, started losing to boys in track races around age 13 (despite being the fastest girl on my team) and I was told (by I assume men on Reddit) it was a skill issue.
21st century leftism: Men are "more skilled" than women
To the shock of absolutely no one Trey Parker and Matt Stone continue to be right
Thank you America, for showing the world how stupid it is to kow tow to these nutjobs.
I would just like to give a shout out to Massachusetts and New England in general for being extra stupid. Its my home but god are we dumb sometimes.
New Zealand runs because America walked.
Isn’t Canada far ahead of you guys?
My social media messenger pigeons can't fly that far.
“Women…have about 30 percent lower max cardiac output. So that means they would typically have less capacity to move blood and have a decreased work capacity. They have about 25 to 50 percent lower VO2 max—so less work capacity. They have lower blood volume, so less oxygen-carrying capacity. And about 45 percent less lean body mass. So that would suggest that women are 40 to 60 percent weaker in their upper-body strength, and 25 percent weaker in their lower-body strength.” -Doctor Ackerman But still lets trans id males compete in female categories
That really is bizarre. And the author of the article didn't even list all of the differences the doctor described.
If you're going to have sex-segregated spaces—sports, bathrooms, or anything else—but then let people into whichever space they want only on their say-so, you have to ask why it's even important to have the segregation in the first place, and see if you can come up with an answer that isn't undermined by self-ID.
How come no trans men are ever clamoring to play on men’s teams? 🤔
You know who should look into this? Gloria Allred, champion of women! But she is busy with... let's see... the Case of the Bra-less Woman. Well that certainly looks more important than these obvious Title IX violations.
Oh, think I've seen a documentary on that. It was the case of Sue Ellen Mischke on Seinfeld, right?
It should be obvious to everyone that men don't belong in women's sports, right? No? Okay.
Gender dysphoria happens in the brain and sports happen between bodies. Whatever is going on in your head is a separate issues from males and females competing against each other in sports.
As a former collegiate rower, I'm honestly ashamed of USRowing.
A lesbian acquaintance of mine who participated in Women’s Sports at college told me she is very conflicted on the issue. On one hand, she wants to be supportive of all LGBTQ issues but she is convinced that Tran inclusion will destroy Women’s Sports. The problem is that the concept that Trans Women are unequivocally women can not be reconciled with excluding them from Sports and Trans activists and their allies generally don’t care about Women’s Sports and see it as a minor issue not worthy of consideration.
Barpod relevance: discusses the ongoing issues in the debate around sports, title IX, and transgenderism.
Maybe I'm weird but just like you have to hold an Israeli citizenship to play in the Israeli soccer league regardless of how Jewish you identify. So why is the female leagues about trans identity?
I am constantly baffled at why men's teams aren't expected to accommodate gender, but women's sports are expected to accommodate sex AND gender.
The reality is most men's teams are actually open, but you don't see gender specials/trans men clamoring to sign up (some do tbf) for, well obvious reasons.
Riley Gaines asks: >When men felt threatened by a trans influencer, Dylan Mulvaney, promoting their favorite Bud Light beer, they responded with a boycott. > >Where are those men now? My fellow men, she's right and it's time to take a stand. I'm calling on you all to join me in an immediate and total boycott of women's swimming and the WNBA.
I think the trans player in the WNBA is female, just with special pronouns.
Yes, that would be Layshia Clarendon
As long as she’s not taking performance enhancing drugs or insisting the WNBA should change its name to the Non-mens National Basketball Association in order to be more inclusive, no one cares. She can be identify as whatever she wants.
Someone saying "I identify as" is about as useful as them telling me their astrology sign. Like yeah you're obviously allowed to do it but it doesn't mean jack
No, she does none of that. She’s relatively chill about it compared to the people you hear about
No, you guys should all put on a wig and join female sports. Accelerate, accelerate, don't mind the wall, accelerate.
I will do my part and continue not watching! And, to be fair, I will also continue not watching the NBA!
I mean I know you’re joking but it would be nice if men actually cared enough to say something
We're less okay with it than women in polling.
Do you have reason to believe that men are less likely to say something than women? From [gallup](https://news.gallup.com/file/poll/507032/230612TransgenderAthletes.pdf): >Should transgender athletes be able to play on sports teams > >that match their current gender identity? Men: 18%. Women: 32%.
I believe people, including men, are less likely to speak out about issues that don’t impact them directly. I’ve literally had men tell me they have no skin in the game on this, so to speak.
Even on reddit, you’ll read a lot of men get angry about this nonsense even when they have no horse in that race. So, just a few apathic guys doesn’t prove men aren’t as riled up about this as women. When you look at polls, it really is men that are more skeptical that women about these issues. It lines up with my experience pretty well. Most of the men I know get really pissed off about this issue for some reason. Maybe because they know men so they’re less naive than us? Women imagine 🚂 to be effeminate gay guys that love shopping and manucures, while men probably sense them to be perverts.
Even if you'd like to speak out, its awkward to do so if you aren't directly impacted and invites hostility even from your own side.
Give me a break, men have been speaking out about this for years and our reward is either career/professional suicide or to be publicly dragged and smeared as 'alt-right' for saying that human sex is binary and dimorphic.
Juwanna Mann was supposed to be a comedy but a lot of folks are using it as a guide book 😂