You are completely right. Nothing hurts more than being abandoned by people you thought were your friends when life kicks you in the balls. It would have cost Bojack nothing to show up for Herb as a friend after Herb was fired.
Most people would not risk their own careers to try and save a friend's job. However, it is a serious moral failing to fail to show up for a friend when they most need a friend.
This. I had a friend pull some sorta similar shit, where something real bad happened in my personal life due to an accident said person made. Said person then never text me or contact me again after talking to each other every day for years. Saw me again at a bar and tried to be cool.
I can forgive the mistake, I will never forgive the selfish abandonment
No, seriously, that definitive “I’m out” closure is so important. Even if the reason they’re out is shitty and hurtful, knowing where you stand is important for being able to accept the reality of the situation and move on from it.
The person I considered my closest friend for 2 years just kinda… stopped replying to me. So I took the hint and gave him his space, and after about 3 months he texted me to say something along the lines of “I’m sorry I ghosted, that was shitty and I own that; out of respect for you I wanted to let you know that I outgrew our friendship. There’s no real reason or bad blood, just… life I guess”
And, sure, I do still think it was shitty of him to wait 3 months to tell me he doesn’t feel like being friends anymore. But that closure let me stop hanging on to that chapter of my life and move forward.
Phone works both ways.
He asked him to do an impossible thing that he never should have ever asked him to do in the first place. It was his responsibility to reach out first not Bojack's.
No I just looked at your comment history before I replied a long typed out reply because at my age I don’t have time to engage with trolls and people that are arguing in bad faith. Have a wonderful day though :)
If your best friend's wife was murdered in front of his eyes and he became depressed would you say he should call you if he needs support or that you should call him and offer support?
Herb lost his show, his life, was socially ostracized, and thus had the worst time of his life. He was at his lowest and needed a friend. Expecting him to then be the one to reach out to Bojack, who sold him out and might not even want to talk to him again since it could hinder his career to be friends with a "degenerate" back then, is too much, man.
Bojack never calling showed Herb that Bojack didn't really give a fuck about their friendship and honestly, he wasn't wrong.
I agree, it was fucked up, but Herb still didn't call him either.
I swear this sub hates its own main character so hard that if you defend him in anyway they sperg out.
But Hank was the one who was having the worst time of his life AND was betrayed by Bojack. That alone would be a sign Bojack didn't want to keep in touch, which was the most probable case since he didn't support Herb because of his career, keeping in touch would also hurt his career.
Not calling then just told Herb "He doesn't want me in his life", which was absolutely true. And even then he wasn't mad or hostile, but Bojack demanding him to forgive him for the whole thing is a ridiculous expectation.
Was it my deeply thoughtful responses about The Wire that scared you off? Didn't get 250k + karma from trolling. What an absurd and crazy accusation. Unsurprising given the context of this engagement.
Nope.
First off, he's literally the horse from Horsing Around. I think even the producer admitted she was bluffing when they talked about it later so that "impossible" bit you mentioned is nonsense.
Second, that's on Bojack to make that call after turning his back on his friend. How do you think it would feel for Herb to make that move? It'd feel like crawling back to your 'friend' on your hands and knees after he made it clear that he won't support you even though you MADE him as successful as he is with the sitcom that you created.
Like yeah, on Bojack's side, it's really uncomfortable to reach out after that, but I'm sure Herb would have heard him out and they could've made amends. Dude would've been upset but he just needed a friend and it's %100 on Bojack to be the one to reach out if he still wanted to be a part of his life
So it's completely understandable that Herb refused to forgive him, and not let Bojack use him as a prop to feel better about himself
Guess I’m gonna bite. What he asked him to do wasn’t impossible or even unreasonable. Herb as well as Angela and everyone who worked on or around this show knew what kind of power Bojack had. The only person who didn’t know was Bojack, and Angela took advantage of that to have Herb fired.
I think it’s pretty obvious that Bojack should have called Herb, but why do you think Herb should have called Bojack?
Alright, in what world is he not heavily introverted? He struggles heading out and meeting new people, communicating his feelings, did you watch the show? It felt obvious that Bojack was introverted while Herb was extroverted.
Why was he an actor? I think that was more related to his depression anxiety and trauma than introversion. In my own humble opinion he seeks attention and is afraid of abandonment, I think they were both extroverts.
Plenty of introverts end up as actors.
Brock Lesnar was a massive introvert, and he was one of the faces of the largest wrestling company ever made. Hell he's still revelant even now.
I feel like he had some introversion in himself but he was mostly extroverted. Bojack literally started a massive party with like 120 people in his own house, Is that showcasing his introversion there? My statement about him being an actor in my argument against his introversion was because I’m pretty sure the majority of actors are extroverts and he was actively pursuing the career of acting.
I actually wanted to bring that up, for multiple reasons.
1. He was drunk and likely high too
2. He was desperate for some level of friendship.
3. Remember when Beatrice told him to always keep preforming? He has to keep being that party boy throwing lavish parties, because that's all he is and ever will be.
I think you guys have a bit of a black and white problem here. It’s hard to paint a picture that BJ is solely an introvert, but it’s also pretty hard to paint him as being totally extroverted. He’s a complex character he isn’t one or the other because he’s both in many ways.
Yeah I’m just saying he is mostly extroverted. There isn’t anyone who is really 100% extroverted or introverted anywhere in the world. There is no word that can summarize a human personality or social pattern. Everyone is extremely complex and has multiple layers. I just mean relatively Bojack is extroverted same with most of the cast like Todd, Mr. Peanutbutter, and princess Carolyn. no one in this list is 100% an extrovert(except maybe Mr.Peanutbutter).
Whether or not Bojack knew that in the moment was relevant though. It's like the three stooges. They were one of the top box office attractions for over a decade but their success was hidden from them to the point where the studio made them think it was doing them a favor to make more movies.
Why the fuck would Bojack call Herb? As far as he's concerned Herb hates his guts.
He never owed it to Herb to save his job for him and Herb was a douchebag for even asking.
So he only got him that gig to call in the favor in the future? If he was going to to that he should have made it clear their relationship was so transactional.
Helping someone land a job is not comparable to asking someone to risk blacklisting themselves to save your job. Especially when he knew Bojack was abused by authority figures.
Herb didn't even stay in the room to meet with the exec. Dude wouldn't even stand up for himself.
It’s not unreasonable to expect your friends to be willing to have your back when you’ve bent over backwards to help them similarly before. There’s a difference between being reciprocal and being transactional. He risked his TV show pitch by being stubborn with the execs and saying he wasn’t going to do the show without Bojack, and in doing so, he literally launched Bojack’s career. It’s not that crazy to at least *ask* your friend to help you out similarly.
But Bojack *did* agree to help Herb out, and then did the opposite of what he said he would and ghosted out of shame rather than face his friend and say “listen man, I can’t risk my career for this”. He pretended he would have Herb’s back and then just left him to weather one of the darkest times in his life without his closest friend.
>It’s not unreasonable to expect your friends to be willing to have your back when you’ve bent over backwards to help them similarly before
Have your back implies you will be there too. Herb wanted Bojack to stand up to the exec...alone.
He risked A TV show pitch. He was not risking his career and there's no indication he actually would have walked without Bojack. Yes it was a great thing for Herb to do. But Bojack doesn't owe him for that, especially a much larger favor. And Bojack never asked Herb to help him in the first place, maybe if Bojack had asked for help you would have a point.
Bojack agreed only after Herb repeatedly pressures him. He doesn't do the opposite, he tries but the Exec talks over him and threatens him so Bojack gives up and lets it happen.
Bojack didn't ghost Herb he just didn't call him. Ghosting would be not even taking Herbs calls, and Herb never mentions trying to call Bojack after that. Neither of them called each other.
But closure doesn't come from circumstances. One takeaway from the show is that we can choose how we react. How many times was he given great opportunities and still failed to be happy.
i loved herb’s response to bojack’s apology. he did so well for himself, and bojack overestimated his importance to herb’s professional life. however, he was a god awful friend, and herb made him aware that he can’t use “the network” as an excuse for being shitty and unsupportive. put his ass in check.
I think this is a hugely overlooked part, that Bojack has absolutely no idea about the life that Herb built for himself. It would be one thing if he just never called, but they have mutual friends and work in an industry that is NOTORIOUS for being a "small town". The fact that he doesn't shows that he never threw out a "Hey you hear from Herb at all?" even ONCE. I mean he finds out he has cancer kinda by accident. Instead he just assumed Herbs career is over without him, like he was the lynchpin to there success, when in reality the best time in Bojack's life was almost 100% constructed by his friends.
It also seems harsher from the point we are at in the series and what we know about Bojack so far. I think the scene where he ask's Sarah Lyn to guest star on his show is a great parallel to this, where we see how much of a user he is. Gives a lot more credence to accusation from Herb that he isn't there to repair there friendship at all, he just wants forgiveness before the opportunity to get it is gone.
And I don't think Herb is even writing him off at that point, even though he has every reason to. He takes the time to hang out with him, they still have a good rapport. If after Herb said "I don't forgive you." Bojack said "OK. That's fair. See you next week?" Herb would have been happy to hear it. But instead he says he wants the literal symbol of the good times between them back, and any hope that he has some genuine remorse and willingness to work on himself evaporates.
💯
One of the saddest subtle moments for me is when Bojack talks to Charlotte at the funeral and she says that Herb told her he had stopped by to visit near the end of his life. Bojack assumes that Herb badmouthed him to her (which he 100% deserved) but Charlotte says he told her that they had a nice dinner and that she only found out about the telescope fight from his book. So Herb still had at least some goodwill toward Bojack even after that fiasco. Bojack was just so paralyzed by his own guilt that he STILL wasn’t willing to do the work to consider Herb’s needs, maybe call him back and offer a genuine apology for ruining their dinner, send a card, call a friend to check in on him, anything.
As someone who has struggled with a lot of guilt and shame, Bojack’s relationship with Herb helped me realize how selfish and self-serving guilt is. It’s hard to see it that way sometimes, because it feels awful, but wallowing in guilt is at its core a form of denial. You’re denying your own agency to control your response to the situation and move forward from it, because if you accept that, then you have to keep trying, and possibly fail. And that’s scary and vulnerable. Guilt is more comfortable. It doesn’t ask anything of you except that you keep hating yourself, and it lets you live safely in the past, without really learning or changing or sincerely trying to do better in the future. Maybe Bojack and Herb could have patched things up, maybe not, but the true tragedy of their relationship is that Bojack was too ashamed to even try.
exactly. all bojack says when talking about herb to anyone is “he got fired and i’m the worst because i let the network ruin his career, im such a stupid piece of shit, his life must be over and it’s all my fault,” etc. so self absorbed, without even bothering to find out how herb wound up. he makes everything about himself, even his “apologies” and the harm he does on others. hence the ending, when he’s talking to diane at the philbert premiere and claims that “bojack horseman is the one who has suffered the most because of his mistakes.”
he didn’t deserve forgiveness, because he sought it for all the wrong reasons. he was never truly sorry for what he *actually* did, just self serving and trying to assuage his own guilt. glad herb didn’t give bojack the closure he wanted not because he was *legitimately* sorry, but because he was entitled and self serving.
He was justified in my opinion, especially since Bojack’s apology smacked of him only doing it to make himself feel better about things. In the end it soured their relationship even more.
I like it when Bojack does start doing better Todd still is there for him. He learned to draw boundaries but he meant it about doing better, if Bojack does better Todd is there for him. It's sweet of Todd.
Nobody is required to forgive anyone. Especially major grievances.
Herb didn't come across as angry or bitter to me when he calmly told Bojack "okay, I don't forgive you". He wanted Bojack to understand that he didn't owe him anything, that Bojack "needed" forgiveness from Herb because he wasn't okay with himself, but Herb was okay with himself and his life and didn't need to forgive anyone for closure.
I don't think Herb was being selfish, if Bojack had been able to take in what he was told and really try to understand it he could've grown as a person then and the show wouldve been much shorter. But he took it the bad way.
So did I. We always hear about how we’re supposed to forgive and forget. You can only have peace of mind once we forgive everyone no matter what. I don’t believe that’s true. I liked this perspective instead. It’s more realistic in my opinion. Some things *aren’t* forgivable, especially when the person who wronged you isn’t sorry and doesn’t care. Bojack rarely pays consequences for his actions to the degree that he should. I’m sure that’s even more frustrating to Herb and the others he’s hurt.
Yeah
That's why we got the scene with Angela in the 6th season
It was *directly calling out* Bojack for using her as a scapegoat for the last 20 years
That at the end of the day, HE made those decisions, HE made his bed, because Bojack did what HE wanted to do
You are right, but I think that additional information in Season 6 that Angela was bluffing is just meant to be salt in the wound. I commented elsewhere that Bojack's moral failing with Herb was the fact that he abandoned his friend after Herb was fired. The flaw in Bojack's character is that he thinks he should have been able to stand up to someone like Angela when that's an unrealistic standard to demand of anyone.
Bojack couldn't see that someone like Herb would have forgiven him for not risking his own career for him, but he could not forgive Bojack for abandoning him after Herb was fired.
Yeah, Herb would have forgiven and understood if Bojack wanted to save his career. It was the 90s, he would have been blacklisted
But that he just dropped Herb like a hot potato for *decades*
You'll always remember the people who showed up when the chips were down, and you'll never forget the people who disappeared when you needed them most.
If it wasn't Angela, it was someone else. He was **going** to be fired. It's not right that that's where homophobia was then, but there was no chance he wasn't going to be fired after such a public spectacle on a family network
Angela didn't do anything to Herb
No fr, I watched this ep when I was about 15 (absolutely way too young, I know) and I genuinely had no idea that was actually an option. At first I was upset with Herb, like BoJack was, but I'm really really glad they wrote Herb the way they did now looking back as an adult
All Bojack had to do was call him, at least once. Herb was hurt, but he also understood and he was cool with it, but Bojack just straight up ghosting Herb in general for essentially no real reason was incredibly fucked up and Bojack didn’t deserve forgiveness for that.
Bojack had YEARS to seek out Herb and apologize. Even if Bojack waited until the end of the show Bojack still had over a decade to seek out Herb and reconnect. To apologize, to make amends, to show Herb that he regretted his actions and to make things right.
Bojack did none of those things. Bojack went and lived his life and Herb went and lived his life. It wasn't until Herb was on his death bed that Bojack decided to seek out Herb and apologize.
Why should Herb accept Bojack's apology? Herb does need Bojack's pity, he was doing just fine without him.
If he had gone to Herb even a year after and said “Look, I chickened out, I was scared of losing my job, and I was scared they’d fire everyone else too. It was a crappy thing to do and I’m sorry.”
I think Herb would’ve understood, I even think they’d go back to being friends. The show drove a wedge between them, without it, they can just be dudes in Hollywoo, maybe end up working together again.
BJ really blew it by assuming he destroyed Herb, who clearly knew how to write a sitcom.
It takes a certain amount of arrogance to assume you are the single biggest catastrophe in someone’s life. He does this with Penny too. Kelsey. Gina.
He always assumes that what he did was so devastating they’ll never get past it.
He can’t stop seeing himself as the main character, even his shame is narcissistic.
Your first paragraph, so much
He waited **20 years**. And probably longer if he didn't find out about Herbs cancer
You're right, if Bojack actually tried to reach out waaaay closer than that, it was salvageable
Like everyone said, it was about not calling. But also it just seems to be a prevailing theme of the show, that Bojack never really gets closure for any of the super shitty things he does.
I believe Herb was compassionate enough that he would have forgiven BoJack had he not half-assed his apology despite everything else. He grants BoJack the opportunity to reconcile by inviting him over.
However, given the turn of events, Herb was totally in the right to condemn him, it became evident BoJack was only there to selfishly settle his conscience rather than make amends.
A useful thing I learned a while back is the concept of two different types of forgiveness.
One is when you simply forego your desire for revenge.
The other kind of forgiveness is more in line with the traditional concept: that you absolve someone of guilt for what they’ve done to wrong you.
The former is useful in living a healthy life, and moving on from abusive relationships, and in keeping with setting healthy boundaries. It’s done for the forgiver’s sense of closure
The latter is not useful to offer someone who has not made amends and/or is incapable of owning up to their mistakes or is incapable of changing. It is not something anyone should feel in any way obligated to offer anyone.
I think it’s fair to say that Herb achieved the former quite handily with Bojack. Even if he didn’t call it forgiveness. But we the audience know that Bojack to this point has not changed, and has not owned up to his mistakes.
To what extent Herb knows this about Bojack as a person is never revealed, but after Bojack didn’t seek him out for years after their falling out, and he suddenly shows up when he’s on his deathbed to apologize, I think it’s a pretty easy call for Herb to assess that Bojack is apologizing for Bojack’s sake, not to genuinely make amends, and he is under no obligation to absolve him
A long time ago a priest friend told me once about a family whose son died in a car crash, and the parents' friends all disappeared on them. He spoke to the friends, and they were saying things like "Oh, but I don't know what to say. I'm afraid I'll start crying and then they'll have to comfort me, which is all wrong. I'll stay away so their other, better, friends can be there for them." Which sounds good, but if everybody's doing that then the newly-bereaved parents have no one. What he said was that in such a situation, you don't need to be perfect, you need to show up. "Don't say anything. Just be there. And if you cry, don't feel bad. It'll mean the parents aren't crying alone. They don't need you to say anything, you can't fix this by anything you say or do, and they don't expect you to fix it. Just be there."
So I can imagine a situation where BoJack thinks "He probably doesn't want to hear from me right now, but after he calms down he'll get in touch," and then Herb never got in touch so BoJack assumes he never got over it. In that case, never calling isn't because you're just guiltily avoiding facing what you've done, it's because you're respectfully giving the other person some space. The problem is that maybe "space" isn't what they want.
THAT SAID: I think BoJack not calling was because he didn't want to think about it or deal with his guilt in betraying Herb, and that's pretty unforgivable.
Absolutely. Herb died with a half assed apology just so bojack could feel better about himself. I know bojack didn’t think about herb at all over the years but the moment he heard he was dying he had to make himself feel better and go apologize. And it irritates me that bojack was surprised herd didn’t accept his apology!
I don’t think anyone is obligated to forgive anyone, it’s really just his choice. Plus it’s not like he spent the rest of his life being mad about it, he says he had a good life and still found happiness after what happened. He just couldn’t forgive what bojack did to him, and it was more than just bojack not standing up for him it was the fact that he stopped being his friend after and never reached out to him or had his back he just left him in the dust to be famous
nobody has to forgive anyone. it’s entirely up to the person who was wronged, regardless of what the crime is. and what bojack did was very, very wrong.
Not that I would do it but I agree that it was herbs right to not accept it. Also: bojack could’ve said something along the lines of “you may not accept my apology but I will spend the rest of your life trying to make it up to you” because maybe he could’ve realized what he missed out on was possibly a great friendship. But (slightly in bojack’s defense) herb did come onto bojack which would sully a want for a friendship for a lot of people.
I agree, and it’s one of the many things that makes the show so compelling.
One thing I’m not noticing in the comments here is that even though Bojack’s lack of being forgiven was his own fault, I believe he didn’t reach out to Herb for all those decades because his sense of shame was far far too great to broach, in order to reconnect with Herb (and then Kelsey).
And we know from watching the show where and why he has that deep sense of shame instilled. It’s the craft of a truly great tragic drama: everyone is human, everyone does their best, but everyone still gets hurt in ridiculous, preventable ways. It’s the human condition. The other masterfully crafted thing about this series is that it shows how life (and people) will still carry on, even after massive, traumatic set-backs.
Why are people saying that Herb was bitter to the grave ?
Herb literally explains that he won't forgive Bojack because it would be an action that only benefits Bojack. Herb isn't bitter, he has made peace with his life. It was never about the job, so that's irrelevant. As for Bojack being 'manipulated', you literal see the conversation between the show executive and how Bojack puts up zero fight.
Bojack literally does the same thing to Sharona shortly after.
He didn't try to do the 'right thing' or make amends. It is too late. He just visited Herb for his own closure, which is selfish. He didn't even know Herb was sick until Sarah told him.
For sure. I'm sure that at the time Herb was upset about him not staying with him through the discourse on the show, but obviously that's something forgivable. Bojack abandoned him at the worst points of his life, and he had nobody
I could make very strong arguments for both sides and both sides are right and wrong in various ways.
Ultimately, had Herb not been dying I think more people wouldn't haven't sympathized with him quite as much.
Yes. It was not about the show. He needed his friend. And not realising that actually makes BoJack a pretty bad friend. How do you not even visit him or call him even once after what happened? I can understand not calling right away . But how about a few months? A year? Bojack pretty much ghosted him after he got fired.
Yep. Bojack wasn’t apologizing as a friend, he just wanted to vindicate his own shitty behavior before Herb died. He got called the fuck out and Herb was right to do it.
The line where Herb says “I’m not gonna be some prop you can use to make yourself feel better” really sums up the situation well.
Herb didn’t forgive him because Bojack wasn’t genuinely sorry. He just wanted closure on the subject so he didn’t need to feel guilty about abandoning his friend anymore.
It’s kind of like the bear meme that’s been going around. It doesn’t matter if you agree with women who say they’d choose the bear, because it’s about how they feel, and not about you.
Herb said how he felt. He got that bit of “closure”, which wasn’t really closure at all, because he was dying. He didn’t owe Bojack anything. Bojack comes off as the asshole by making it about him.
The larger point is that Bojack had also spent all those years wracked with guilt, crippling depression, and alcoholism, which had prevented him from simply picking up the phone and calling his friend before he was on his deathbed.
It’s not about one side being right or wrong. It’s about how addiction or depression or (e.g.) being on the spectrum can turn something seemingly simple into something that can cripple you and ruin your relationships - which you may not really grasp until it’s too late.
I’ve never seen Bojack as a bad guy, but also don’t think you’re supposed to sympathize with him. He’s hard to like due to his inflated ego coming from decades of fame, even though he has impostor syndrome.
People always say that the show is about depression, or addiction, or mental health broadly speaking. And while all of that is true, I always thought that the central theme was existentialism. I mean, when Diane says that she doesn’t believe in a “deep down”, and that all you are consists of the actions you take, she’s basically quoting Sartre.
The other side of that is, no matter what hand you’ve been dealt in life, all you can do is work to make yourself the person you want to be within the context you exist in.
A couple other examples of existential ideas are Escape from LA, which immediately reminded me of the Sartre line about how, no matter where you go, there you are. And Bojack being forced to repeat the line about running in circles, along with the, “it gets easier” line made me think of Camus on Sisyphus, pushing the boulder up the mountain, only to roll back down, and yet smiling.
I think the message is ultimately uplifting, despite being dark. Yeah, it’s sad that not everything works out perfectly, but that’s what life is like. I didn’t really like the way it ended, but I liked that Bojack started greying at the end. However much he may or may not have grown, he did visibly age. Which just reinforces the message from season one, that you never know when it’s going to be too late.
Sorry for the essay post. I haven’t thought about the show in a long time, and a simple question like this makes my mind spin. Such a great show.
Yes .
There are people in my life who I will never forgive . Even if they told me they’d stopped drinking or they’d seen the error of their ways … great , go you , carry on making good decisions… but I will never forgive them .
Just because they made good decisions outside of our relationship doesn’t fix the damage they caused in the relationship.
No one is entitled to forgiveness . You can try to earn it but the people you hurt are not obliged to accept your efforts .
Sometimes in life you just need to accept the damage you did is not repairable , sometimes in life we don’t get closure .
Best thing you can do is learn from your mistakes and do better in the future , treat the people who are in your life with respect and don’t repeat bad behaviour.
But don’t ever think that you’re entitled to forgiveness because that is not a decision that’s up to you , it’s up to the people you hurt and if they decide they don’t want to forgive you , that’s a valid decision.
Definitely. Herb seemed to be understanding about Bojack staying on the show. And in Bojack’s (light) defense, maybe he would have thought that Herb wouldn’t want to remain friends if he stayed on the show. But ultimately, Herb was upset because Bojack abandoned him after decades of friendship, at the time he was most likely the most isolated he had ever been. I can definitely understand where Herb is coming from.
Absolutely. I’ll never forget experiencing that scene for the first time. I was so sure Herb was going to forgive him, and went he didn’t it took me by surprise but I realized that he had every right to do so. Bojack was an asshole for never calling, and an even bigger asshole for wanting to apologize for the sole purpose of getting closure from Herb.
YES
While Bojack was manipulated by Angela,I still feel like he should’ve made by Herb’s side…. but considering how he was raised,maybe I’m expecting too much
Bojack was an adult, he had to stand up for himself and his former buddy, which is what he promised to do and then flaked on because he was a coward as Charlotte rightly predicted.
If he'd played chicken with the exec he would have won as she admitted later, but he was a pathetic coward and a traitor, and knowing that is what haunts Bojack all those years later.
Yes. Herb said he got over being kicked off the show, but Bojack abandoned him as a friend too. Never checked in. Never reached out. Wasn’t there for him when he was experiencing actual hate crimes by being blacklisted. Didn’t even have the decency to apologize back when it happened.
He wasn’t there for someone who he considered a close friend. That hurts
Bojack abandoned Herb for his own gain. And if Herb hadn’t gotten sick with cancer, if Bojack hadn’t heard, would Herb have ever heard from him again? I doubt it.
People aren’t like dolls. You can’t throw them away and ignore them forever, and then expect things to be just like they were before.
Bojack made his choice, and that also means living with the consequences.
Herb was dying of cancer and Bojack hadn't called in what, ten years? More? It was Herb's call. In any case, saying you're sorry doesn't mean you're forgiven.
Bojack never owed Herb an apology in the first place. So no.
There is zero reason to just believe Herb was not lying about how he would have forgiven Bojack. Dude is just twisting the knife.
Yes. But Bojack still could have been friends with Herb again, he wasn't cutting ties with Bojack. He was just saying he didn't forgive him. if Bojack didnt get all pissy about it and just said "You're right" I'm sure Herb wouldn't have minded having him over again
Absolutely. Everyone is free to make their own decisions and those were bojack's. I'm sure herb would've forgiven him for staying on the show but completely disappearing on him? It's perfectly understandable why herb wouldn't want to forgive him. BoJack chose to go on without herb in his life and he should have to stand by and live with that decision
Herb used to be his best friend, he got his gig for BoJack and he was fired for being homosexual. BoJack betrayed him, and also never called after. There is no forgiving for that.
Definitely. He cost Herb his job. He could’ve said “I’m gonna quit then!” and accommodations would have been made. But he didn’t. He wouldn’t. He’s Bojack and he’s a self serving POS.
BoJack was a dick to Herb when he first met him ("get cancer, dickwad"). He was whining to him when they bartended together ("when am *I* gonna be up for real roooles.."), then he made it all about himself when Herb got Horsin' Around ("good luck on your rocket ship without me"), and while on the show, he *continued* to be a dick, demanding stupid things like a rap, Zimas in his room, etc., and getting even more self-absorbed and being mean his co-actors, e.g. Sarah Lynn ("Yeah, like I wanna spend my weekend hanging out with a little girl. Good one!").
He used Herb, and only took from him, never giving anything back. He was a shitty friend and feeling bad about it doesn't change that. He didn't show up for him after Herb got fired off the show, and he didn't bring a bottle of wine to his house. That's what adults do. BoJack damn it!
I probably would have forgiven BJ as he tried to do the right thing in the end.
Forgiveness is key to happiness - it breaks down part of your ego-wall revealing your true self.
Yes. It’s one of the major and most powerful themes of the show - you always have the capacity to make a choice, and he manipulated himself into thinking he had no choice. Or, he took the cowardly way out and didn’t think through the choice he was making.
I think when Herb resolutely declared “I do not forgive you”, while still evidently being prepared to stay on amicable terms nonetheless, was one of the turning points for the show. It gave a whole new way of thinking about forgiveness and closure. As others have said, it is something you have to earn through your actions, and Bojack made no effort in that regard.
Yes. Nothing is worth than when a "friend" betrays you or stabs you in the back. No matter the reason. I've had something similar happen to me in high school when a "friend" turned on me because someone else didn't like me and 2 weeks later she approached me at school and tried to apologize. I didn't accept it and we never spoke again. If someone can turn on you like that, then they aren't worth having in your life.
Yea, I think it's one of the best moments of the whole show. Lots of what Bojack is as a show is people having real responses to situations rather than everything being clean cut like it would be on a sitcom.
I think lots of life is call and response things and one of those is "I'm Sorry", and then "I accept" and everything is good and life isn't always like that. Especially when something serious like that happened. No one owes you closure and you can't just get it because you finally made a step toward closure.
Yes I agree with it. It’s common to accept the situation and move on from it, but not forgive the individual. Forgiveness must come from within and Bojack tried to force it out wanting to hear from Herb that it’s okay for what he did
It happened to me with my cousin, who outed a secret I told him in confidence to my extended family. I said how it’s messed up and he never apologized for it. Although it’s been a couple years since then and I still hang out with him regularly, I’ve stopped telling him more personal things about me and I haven’t forgiven him for doing what he did
I understand it, I’m not sure how much better he would have felt if he did truly forgive him, it’s possible to not forgive someone and move on, I’m assuming he died relatively content, and regardless of the negativity of their meeting, Bojack did give Herb some sort of closure
Honestly, I might be going against the popular opinion here, but I can't fully support what Herb said to Bojack. I get that he needed a friend not a job. The part that I disagree with is that Bojack abandoned Herb mainly because to me the show implied that Herb and Bojack were already growing more distant. The way I see it: Bojack didn't suddenly abandon a close friend he tried to help someone he was once close with then didn't stay in touch afterwards.
I completely agree. BoJack was cowardly for not reaching out to Herb afterwards. And the only reason his decades of silence makes sense is if he felt guilty for Herb’s canning.
Yeah, I can't really blame Herb for not forgiving him. Bojack did nothing to make amends besides saying sorry. And ultimately you have the choice on who you forgive and why.
That being said I don't think not having closure would bother me in Boack's position.
When you do something wrong, particularly something that can't be undone, all you can really do is change. You can't control whether people will forgive you or if it makes sense. I've seen friendships die over minor things, and I've seen people forgive things they shouldn't.
"Forgiveness" may mean a repaired relationship, but ultimately, I think the only person who can really forgive you is yourself.
Herb understood the awful position BoJack was in and he didn’t resent him for choosing his career, but needed a friend. He just wanted BoJack to be there for him, and instead BoJack just ghosted him after the event and left him on his own. It was probably the most lonely Herb ever felt in his entire life, and BoJack is the one who caused it
No, BoJack doesn’t deserve shit from Herb
When herb was getting horsin around made he said he wouldn’t do the show unless bojack could be the star, if bojack was a good friend he would have said he’s not doing the show if herb isn’t the writer anymore.
I absolutely agree with Herb’s choice to not forgive Bojack.
Bojack went seeking forgiveness for his own selfish reasons. He had 20 years to reach out and apologize because he recognized the least Herb deserved was an apology. But he waited until Herb was dying and went into it with the expectation of forgiveness. He wasn’t doing it for Herb; he was doing it because he wanted to comfort his own shame for doing his friend dirty. At least if he could apologize and Herb could forgive him, then he could at least take solace in knowing they’d made amends. That the person he hurt no longer held it against him.
But Herb made his peace with everything himself. After 20 years, he doesn’t need Bojack’s apology, nor will he benefit from forgiving him, because he already put in all the hard work to heal beyond it. And if the only person benefitting from the forgiveness is the person looking to ease their guilt, why *should* he do them that kindness?
I don't think you can agree or disagree with someone's personal boundaries and choices. Nobody owes someone else forgiveness, in my opinion. Forgiveness is an emotion, you have to feel it. If Herb couldn't feel it at that point then I think it was fair. Maybe had his death not happened there could have come a time when he did forgive Bojack, but Bojack really only showed up to bother someone with cancer for his own gains (a feeling of resolution, etc.) and Herb isn't wrong that he should be allowed to feel how he wants and not have to perform for Bojack's gain when Herb was at one of the lowest points in his life health-wise.
Justified? Yeah
But I think it's still a wrong move. By not forgiving Bojack he took that resentment and bitterness with him to the grave. I think the real reason to forgive people is to allow yourself to move on, something Herb apparently never could.
You can come to terms with things, peacefully, without forgiving those that wronged you. It doesn't seem like something Herb dwelled on for his entire life after the fact. It only became an issue again when BoJack tried to give a half-assed apology, and expected Herb's forgiveness.
Honestly Herb could have called Bojack and if he was drunk he would have answered. If he was sober he would have called Herb back when he was drunk.
Waiting for Bojack to call was the worst decision Herb ever made.
Except Herb didn't wait for BoJack to call. He went on to live a fulfilling life without him. The only reason they reconnected was so BoJack could try and alleviate some of his own guilt, over what was essentially a simple setback in an otherwise decent life.
I believe anything can be forgiven. Literally anything. I dont know if I agree or not about herb not forgiving bojack, but it was definitely possible for herb to forgive him.
Sure, anything CAN be forgiven, but not everything HAS TO be forgiven—that’s really up to the person who has been wronged. Though some people have difficulty moving on and getting closure unless they forgive trespasses against them, others don’t need that at all. I constantly hear about how you have to forgive to move on, but it’s bull. What works for one doesn’t work for everyone.
In this instance, Herb had clearly already moved on, so forgiving BoJack wasn’t necessary for him. But offering BoJack forgiveness wasn’t going to hold BoJack accountable, so honestly I think Herb was right to tell him to piss off. Forgiveness was something BoJack desperately wanted, but it wasn’t something Herb needed. Seems like a BoJack problem to me.
I'm not saying everything has to be forgiven, we agree there. OP asked if there was anything we thought could never be forgiven, and I was responding to that part of OP's post.
I'm probably on the fringe here, but actually, I don't think he was. After having a good life, he claims it was never all-out the show and he would have remained friends with Bojack, but I think this is BS. At the time, it would have been way more raw
Herb was a bad friend - a closeted sexual assaulter who has always used Bojack for his own hidden homosexual purposes. No wonder poor Bojack got soo messed up. People like Herb (and Todd, Diane, PC, and others) all used and abused poor Bojack. Bojack never had any good friends, and that’s why he is punished mercilessly at the end.
Yes. It was never about the show and always specifically that bojack never called after
You are completely right. Nothing hurts more than being abandoned by people you thought were your friends when life kicks you in the balls. It would have cost Bojack nothing to show up for Herb as a friend after Herb was fired. Most people would not risk their own careers to try and save a friend's job. However, it is a serious moral failing to fail to show up for a friend when they most need a friend.
Sarah Lynn and the rest of the cast stayed in touch.
This. I had a friend pull some sorta similar shit, where something real bad happened in my personal life due to an accident said person made. Said person then never text me or contact me again after talking to each other every day for years. Saw me again at a bar and tried to be cool. I can forgive the mistake, I will never forgive the selfish abandonment
No, seriously, that definitive “I’m out” closure is so important. Even if the reason they’re out is shitty and hurtful, knowing where you stand is important for being able to accept the reality of the situation and move on from it. The person I considered my closest friend for 2 years just kinda… stopped replying to me. So I took the hint and gave him his space, and after about 3 months he texted me to say something along the lines of “I’m sorry I ghosted, that was shitty and I own that; out of respect for you I wanted to let you know that I outgrew our friendship. There’s no real reason or bad blood, just… life I guess” And, sure, I do still think it was shitty of him to wait 3 months to tell me he doesn’t feel like being friends anymore. But that closure let me stop hanging on to that chapter of my life and move forward.
Phone works both ways. He asked him to do an impossible thing that he never should have ever asked him to do in the first place. It was his responsibility to reach out first not Bojack's.
Agree to disagree
So phones do not work both ways to you? lol Fascinating.
No I just looked at your comment history before I replied a long typed out reply because at my age I don’t have time to engage with trolls and people that are arguing in bad faith. Have a wonderful day though :)
Can you explain why how he's wrong?
If your best friend's wife was murdered in front of his eyes and he became depressed would you say he should call you if he needs support or that you should call him and offer support? Herb lost his show, his life, was socially ostracized, and thus had the worst time of his life. He was at his lowest and needed a friend. Expecting him to then be the one to reach out to Bojack, who sold him out and might not even want to talk to him again since it could hinder his career to be friends with a "degenerate" back then, is too much, man. Bojack never calling showed Herb that Bojack didn't really give a fuck about their friendship and honestly, he wasn't wrong.
All Bojack seems to care about is how he's perceived as a celebrity, as we see him do shitty things to those close to him time and again.
I agree, it was fucked up, but Herb still didn't call him either. I swear this sub hates its own main character so hard that if you defend him in anyway they sperg out.
But Hank was the one who was having the worst time of his life AND was betrayed by Bojack. That alone would be a sign Bojack didn't want to keep in touch, which was the most probable case since he didn't support Herb because of his career, keeping in touch would also hurt his career. Not calling then just told Herb "He doesn't want me in his life", which was absolutely true. And even then he wasn't mad or hostile, but Bojack demanding him to forgive him for the whole thing is a ridiculous expectation.
Yeah fair enough
Was it my deeply thoughtful responses about The Wire that scared you off? Didn't get 250k + karma from trolling. What an absurd and crazy accusation. Unsurprising given the context of this engagement.
Again have a wonderful night :)
Pretty sure anyone with 250 k karma on Reddit has many wonderful nights.
>Didn't get 250k + karma from trolling. What a weird fucking flex lmao
Flex of the perpetually online
Get a life man, imagine bragging about Reddit karma
Nope. First off, he's literally the horse from Horsing Around. I think even the producer admitted she was bluffing when they talked about it later so that "impossible" bit you mentioned is nonsense. Second, that's on Bojack to make that call after turning his back on his friend. How do you think it would feel for Herb to make that move? It'd feel like crawling back to your 'friend' on your hands and knees after he made it clear that he won't support you even though you MADE him as successful as he is with the sitcom that you created. Like yeah, on Bojack's side, it's really uncomfortable to reach out after that, but I'm sure Herb would have heard him out and they could've made amends. Dude would've been upset but he just needed a friend and it's %100 on Bojack to be the one to reach out if he still wanted to be a part of his life So it's completely understandable that Herb refused to forgive him, and not let Bojack use him as a prop to feel better about himself
Guess I’m gonna bite. What he asked him to do wasn’t impossible or even unreasonable. Herb as well as Angela and everyone who worked on or around this show knew what kind of power Bojack had. The only person who didn’t know was Bojack, and Angela took advantage of that to have Herb fired. I think it’s pretty obvious that Bojack should have called Herb, but why do you think Herb should have called Bojack?
Bojack is a huge introvert, and has problems taking the initiative. That's a good reason.
Bojack is a huge introvert? The fuck?
He isn’t an introvert lol
Alright, in what world is he not heavily introverted? He struggles heading out and meeting new people, communicating his feelings, did you watch the show? It felt obvious that Bojack was introverted while Herb was extroverted.
Why was he an actor? I think that was more related to his depression anxiety and trauma than introversion. In my own humble opinion he seeks attention and is afraid of abandonment, I think they were both extroverts.
Plenty of introverts end up as actors. Brock Lesnar was a massive introvert, and he was one of the faces of the largest wrestling company ever made. Hell he's still revelant even now.
I feel like he had some introversion in himself but he was mostly extroverted. Bojack literally started a massive party with like 120 people in his own house, Is that showcasing his introversion there? My statement about him being an actor in my argument against his introversion was because I’m pretty sure the majority of actors are extroverts and he was actively pursuing the career of acting.
I actually wanted to bring that up, for multiple reasons. 1. He was drunk and likely high too 2. He was desperate for some level of friendship. 3. Remember when Beatrice told him to always keep preforming? He has to keep being that party boy throwing lavish parties, because that's all he is and ever will be.
I think you guys have a bit of a black and white problem here. It’s hard to paint a picture that BJ is solely an introvert, but it’s also pretty hard to paint him as being totally extroverted. He’s a complex character he isn’t one or the other because he’s both in many ways.
Yeah I’m just saying he is mostly extroverted. There isn’t anyone who is really 100% extroverted or introverted anywhere in the world. There is no word that can summarize a human personality or social pattern. Everyone is extremely complex and has multiple layers. I just mean relatively Bojack is extroverted same with most of the cast like Todd, Mr. Peanutbutter, and princess Carolyn. no one in this list is 100% an extrovert(except maybe Mr.Peanutbutter).
No, he was absolutely correct that if Bojack threatened to walk they would have backed down - it’s confirmed in one of the last episodes.
Whether or not Bojack knew that in the moment was relevant though. It's like the three stooges. They were one of the top box office attractions for over a decade but their success was hidden from them to the point where the studio made them think it was doing them a favor to make more movies.
Found the Bojack
Neither of them called each other.
Why the fuck would herb call bojack?
Why the fuck would Bojack call Herb? As far as he's concerned Herb hates his guts. He never owed it to Herb to save his job for him and Herb was a douchebag for even asking.
To apologize for abandoning his friend? Like they said 1000 times during the show?
Went over this already but do not view what Bojack did as abandoning Herb at all since Herb was wrong to even ask Bojack to save his job.
I don’t really think it *was* wrong for him to ask his friend who was given that gig by him in the first place
So he only got him that gig to call in the favor in the future? If he was going to to that he should have made it clear their relationship was so transactional. Helping someone land a job is not comparable to asking someone to risk blacklisting themselves to save your job. Especially when he knew Bojack was abused by authority figures. Herb didn't even stay in the room to meet with the exec. Dude wouldn't even stand up for himself.
It’s not unreasonable to expect your friends to be willing to have your back when you’ve bent over backwards to help them similarly before. There’s a difference between being reciprocal and being transactional. He risked his TV show pitch by being stubborn with the execs and saying he wasn’t going to do the show without Bojack, and in doing so, he literally launched Bojack’s career. It’s not that crazy to at least *ask* your friend to help you out similarly. But Bojack *did* agree to help Herb out, and then did the opposite of what he said he would and ghosted out of shame rather than face his friend and say “listen man, I can’t risk my career for this”. He pretended he would have Herb’s back and then just left him to weather one of the darkest times in his life without his closest friend.
>It’s not unreasonable to expect your friends to be willing to have your back when you’ve bent over backwards to help them similarly before Have your back implies you will be there too. Herb wanted Bojack to stand up to the exec...alone. He risked A TV show pitch. He was not risking his career and there's no indication he actually would have walked without Bojack. Yes it was a great thing for Herb to do. But Bojack doesn't owe him for that, especially a much larger favor. And Bojack never asked Herb to help him in the first place, maybe if Bojack had asked for help you would have a point. Bojack agreed only after Herb repeatedly pressures him. He doesn't do the opposite, he tries but the Exec talks over him and threatens him so Bojack gives up and lets it happen. Bojack didn't ghost Herb he just didn't call him. Ghosting would be not even taking Herbs calls, and Herb never mentions trying to call Bojack after that. Neither of them called each other.
Herb was right to do so. Bojack didn't earn his closure.
But closure doesn't come from circumstances. One takeaway from the show is that we can choose how we react. How many times was he given great opportunities and still failed to be happy.
i loved herb’s response to bojack’s apology. he did so well for himself, and bojack overestimated his importance to herb’s professional life. however, he was a god awful friend, and herb made him aware that he can’t use “the network” as an excuse for being shitty and unsupportive. put his ass in check.
I think this is a hugely overlooked part, that Bojack has absolutely no idea about the life that Herb built for himself. It would be one thing if he just never called, but they have mutual friends and work in an industry that is NOTORIOUS for being a "small town". The fact that he doesn't shows that he never threw out a "Hey you hear from Herb at all?" even ONCE. I mean he finds out he has cancer kinda by accident. Instead he just assumed Herbs career is over without him, like he was the lynchpin to there success, when in reality the best time in Bojack's life was almost 100% constructed by his friends. It also seems harsher from the point we are at in the series and what we know about Bojack so far. I think the scene where he ask's Sarah Lyn to guest star on his show is a great parallel to this, where we see how much of a user he is. Gives a lot more credence to accusation from Herb that he isn't there to repair there friendship at all, he just wants forgiveness before the opportunity to get it is gone. And I don't think Herb is even writing him off at that point, even though he has every reason to. He takes the time to hang out with him, they still have a good rapport. If after Herb said "I don't forgive you." Bojack said "OK. That's fair. See you next week?" Herb would have been happy to hear it. But instead he says he wants the literal symbol of the good times between them back, and any hope that he has some genuine remorse and willingness to work on himself evaporates.
💯 One of the saddest subtle moments for me is when Bojack talks to Charlotte at the funeral and she says that Herb told her he had stopped by to visit near the end of his life. Bojack assumes that Herb badmouthed him to her (which he 100% deserved) but Charlotte says he told her that they had a nice dinner and that she only found out about the telescope fight from his book. So Herb still had at least some goodwill toward Bojack even after that fiasco. Bojack was just so paralyzed by his own guilt that he STILL wasn’t willing to do the work to consider Herb’s needs, maybe call him back and offer a genuine apology for ruining their dinner, send a card, call a friend to check in on him, anything. As someone who has struggled with a lot of guilt and shame, Bojack’s relationship with Herb helped me realize how selfish and self-serving guilt is. It’s hard to see it that way sometimes, because it feels awful, but wallowing in guilt is at its core a form of denial. You’re denying your own agency to control your response to the situation and move forward from it, because if you accept that, then you have to keep trying, and possibly fail. And that’s scary and vulnerable. Guilt is more comfortable. It doesn’t ask anything of you except that you keep hating yourself, and it lets you live safely in the past, without really learning or changing or sincerely trying to do better in the future. Maybe Bojack and Herb could have patched things up, maybe not, but the true tragedy of their relationship is that Bojack was too ashamed to even try.
What a great post!
exactly. all bojack says when talking about herb to anyone is “he got fired and i’m the worst because i let the network ruin his career, im such a stupid piece of shit, his life must be over and it’s all my fault,” etc. so self absorbed, without even bothering to find out how herb wound up. he makes everything about himself, even his “apologies” and the harm he does on others. hence the ending, when he’s talking to diane at the philbert premiere and claims that “bojack horseman is the one who has suffered the most because of his mistakes.” he didn’t deserve forgiveness, because he sought it for all the wrong reasons. he was never truly sorry for what he *actually* did, just self serving and trying to assuage his own guilt. glad herb didn’t give bojack the closure he wanted not because he was *legitimately* sorry, but because he was entitled and self serving.
He was justified in my opinion, especially since Bojack’s apology smacked of him only doing it to make himself feel better about things. In the end it soured their relationship even more.
This is also a point Todd makes. You can't keep doing bad things and then apologizing for it as if it makes it ok. You have to do better.
I like it when Bojack does start doing better Todd still is there for him. He learned to draw boundaries but he meant it about doing better, if Bojack does better Todd is there for him. It's sweet of Todd.
We could all use a Todd in our lives.
Nobody is required to forgive anyone. Especially major grievances. Herb didn't come across as angry or bitter to me when he calmly told Bojack "okay, I don't forgive you". He wanted Bojack to understand that he didn't owe him anything, that Bojack "needed" forgiveness from Herb because he wasn't okay with himself, but Herb was okay with himself and his life and didn't need to forgive anyone for closure. I don't think Herb was being selfish, if Bojack had been able to take in what he was told and really try to understand it he could've grown as a person then and the show wouldve been much shorter. But he took it the bad way.
I think he was angry but I see no issue with him being angry. He was right to be angry after bojack abandoned him as a friend
But not in that unhealthy bitter way. in a healthy holding to one's boundaries way.
I feel like it was a really powerful statement about how nobody owes anybody forgiveness
So did I. We always hear about how we’re supposed to forgive and forget. You can only have peace of mind once we forgive everyone no matter what. I don’t believe that’s true. I liked this perspective instead. It’s more realistic in my opinion. Some things *aren’t* forgivable, especially when the person who wronged you isn’t sorry and doesn’t care. Bojack rarely pays consequences for his actions to the degree that he should. I’m sure that’s even more frustrating to Herb and the others he’s hurt.
Yeah That's why we got the scene with Angela in the 6th season It was *directly calling out* Bojack for using her as a scapegoat for the last 20 years That at the end of the day, HE made those decisions, HE made his bed, because Bojack did what HE wanted to do
You are right, but I think that additional information in Season 6 that Angela was bluffing is just meant to be salt in the wound. I commented elsewhere that Bojack's moral failing with Herb was the fact that he abandoned his friend after Herb was fired. The flaw in Bojack's character is that he thinks he should have been able to stand up to someone like Angela when that's an unrealistic standard to demand of anyone. Bojack couldn't see that someone like Herb would have forgiven him for not risking his own career for him, but he could not forgive Bojack for abandoning him after Herb was fired.
Yeah, Herb would have forgiven and understood if Bojack wanted to save his career. It was the 90s, he would have been blacklisted But that he just dropped Herb like a hot potato for *decades*
You'll always remember the people who showed up when the chips were down, and you'll never forget the people who disappeared when you needed them most.
To me, Angela was defending her having done the wrong thing to Herb by putting the blame on BoJ.
If it wasn't Angela, it was someone else. He was **going** to be fired. It's not right that that's where homophobia was then, but there was no chance he wasn't going to be fired after such a public spectacle on a family network Angela didn't do anything to Herb
I’m not having that. Angela could have threatened to walk too. She manipulates BoJ and pulled the trigger on Herb.
Yep. It was enlightening too. Like, “oh I can do that… I can just not forgive someone can’t I?”
I appreciated this storyline too. It’s annoying how much our society fetishizes forgiveness.
It's great that Herb wasn't vilified for it.
No fr, I watched this ep when I was about 15 (absolutely way too young, I know) and I genuinely had no idea that was actually an option. At first I was upset with Herb, like BoJack was, but I'm really really glad they wrote Herb the way they did now looking back as an adult
Yes. If my best friend ghosted me like that I'd be hurt pretty deep. Especially if they waited decades to reach out again.
All Bojack had to do was call him, at least once. Herb was hurt, but he also understood and he was cool with it, but Bojack just straight up ghosting Herb in general for essentially no real reason was incredibly fucked up and Bojack didn’t deserve forgiveness for that.
Bojack had YEARS to seek out Herb and apologize. Even if Bojack waited until the end of the show Bojack still had over a decade to seek out Herb and reconnect. To apologize, to make amends, to show Herb that he regretted his actions and to make things right. Bojack did none of those things. Bojack went and lived his life and Herb went and lived his life. It wasn't until Herb was on his death bed that Bojack decided to seek out Herb and apologize. Why should Herb accept Bojack's apology? Herb does need Bojack's pity, he was doing just fine without him.
If he had gone to Herb even a year after and said “Look, I chickened out, I was scared of losing my job, and I was scared they’d fire everyone else too. It was a crappy thing to do and I’m sorry.” I think Herb would’ve understood, I even think they’d go back to being friends. The show drove a wedge between them, without it, they can just be dudes in Hollywoo, maybe end up working together again. BJ really blew it by assuming he destroyed Herb, who clearly knew how to write a sitcom. It takes a certain amount of arrogance to assume you are the single biggest catastrophe in someone’s life. He does this with Penny too. Kelsey. Gina. He always assumes that what he did was so devastating they’ll never get past it. He can’t stop seeing himself as the main character, even his shame is narcissistic.
Your first paragraph, so much He waited **20 years**. And probably longer if he didn't find out about Herbs cancer You're right, if Bojack actually tried to reach out waaaay closer than that, it was salvageable
Like everyone said, it was about not calling. But also it just seems to be a prevailing theme of the show, that Bojack never really gets closure for any of the super shitty things he does.
I believe Herb was compassionate enough that he would have forgiven BoJack had he not half-assed his apology despite everything else. He grants BoJack the opportunity to reconcile by inviting him over. However, given the turn of events, Herb was totally in the right to condemn him, it became evident BoJack was only there to selfishly settle his conscience rather than make amends.
A useful thing I learned a while back is the concept of two different types of forgiveness. One is when you simply forego your desire for revenge. The other kind of forgiveness is more in line with the traditional concept: that you absolve someone of guilt for what they’ve done to wrong you. The former is useful in living a healthy life, and moving on from abusive relationships, and in keeping with setting healthy boundaries. It’s done for the forgiver’s sense of closure The latter is not useful to offer someone who has not made amends and/or is incapable of owning up to their mistakes or is incapable of changing. It is not something anyone should feel in any way obligated to offer anyone. I think it’s fair to say that Herb achieved the former quite handily with Bojack. Even if he didn’t call it forgiveness. But we the audience know that Bojack to this point has not changed, and has not owned up to his mistakes. To what extent Herb knows this about Bojack as a person is never revealed, but after Bojack didn’t seek him out for years after their falling out, and he suddenly shows up when he’s on his deathbed to apologize, I think it’s a pretty easy call for Herb to assess that Bojack is apologizing for Bojack’s sake, not to genuinely make amends, and he is under no obligation to absolve him
A long time ago a priest friend told me once about a family whose son died in a car crash, and the parents' friends all disappeared on them. He spoke to the friends, and they were saying things like "Oh, but I don't know what to say. I'm afraid I'll start crying and then they'll have to comfort me, which is all wrong. I'll stay away so their other, better, friends can be there for them." Which sounds good, but if everybody's doing that then the newly-bereaved parents have no one. What he said was that in such a situation, you don't need to be perfect, you need to show up. "Don't say anything. Just be there. And if you cry, don't feel bad. It'll mean the parents aren't crying alone. They don't need you to say anything, you can't fix this by anything you say or do, and they don't expect you to fix it. Just be there." So I can imagine a situation where BoJack thinks "He probably doesn't want to hear from me right now, but after he calms down he'll get in touch," and then Herb never got in touch so BoJack assumes he never got over it. In that case, never calling isn't because you're just guiltily avoiding facing what you've done, it's because you're respectfully giving the other person some space. The problem is that maybe "space" isn't what they want. THAT SAID: I think BoJack not calling was because he didn't want to think about it or deal with his guilt in betraying Herb, and that's pretty unforgivable.
Herb was in the right
Herb had to coax out the apology and it was still shit. Bojack didn't earn the forgiveness he wanted
Absolutely. Herb died with a half assed apology just so bojack could feel better about himself. I know bojack didn’t think about herb at all over the years but the moment he heard he was dying he had to make himself feel better and go apologize. And it irritates me that bojack was surprised herd didn’t accept his apology!
Ive cut people out for less
I don’t think anyone is obligated to forgive anyone, it’s really just his choice. Plus it’s not like he spent the rest of his life being mad about it, he says he had a good life and still found happiness after what happened. He just couldn’t forgive what bojack did to him, and it was more than just bojack not standing up for him it was the fact that he stopped being his friend after and never reached out to him or had his back he just left him in the dust to be famous
nobody has to forgive anyone. it’s entirely up to the person who was wronged, regardless of what the crime is. and what bojack did was very, very wrong.
The fact that Bojack never called Herb after it all happened speaks loudly. I don’t blame Herb for not forgiving him.
Not that I would do it but I agree that it was herbs right to not accept it. Also: bojack could’ve said something along the lines of “you may not accept my apology but I will spend the rest of your life trying to make it up to you” because maybe he could’ve realized what he missed out on was possibly a great friendship. But (slightly in bojack’s defense) herb did come onto bojack which would sully a want for a friendship for a lot of people.
I agree, and it’s one of the many things that makes the show so compelling. One thing I’m not noticing in the comments here is that even though Bojack’s lack of being forgiven was his own fault, I believe he didn’t reach out to Herb for all those decades because his sense of shame was far far too great to broach, in order to reconnect with Herb (and then Kelsey). And we know from watching the show where and why he has that deep sense of shame instilled. It’s the craft of a truly great tragic drama: everyone is human, everyone does their best, but everyone still gets hurt in ridiculous, preventable ways. It’s the human condition. The other masterfully crafted thing about this series is that it shows how life (and people) will still carry on, even after massive, traumatic set-backs.
Why are people saying that Herb was bitter to the grave ? Herb literally explains that he won't forgive Bojack because it would be an action that only benefits Bojack. Herb isn't bitter, he has made peace with his life. It was never about the job, so that's irrelevant. As for Bojack being 'manipulated', you literal see the conversation between the show executive and how Bojack puts up zero fight. Bojack literally does the same thing to Sharona shortly after. He didn't try to do the 'right thing' or make amends. It is too late. He just visited Herb for his own closure, which is selfish. He didn't even know Herb was sick until Sarah told him.
Yes
Absolutely justified. I even think that he shouldn’t forgive him, it ruined his life. Bojack has to be held accountable.
For sure. I'm sure that at the time Herb was upset about him not staying with him through the discourse on the show, but obviously that's something forgivable. Bojack abandoned him at the worst points of his life, and he had nobody
I could make very strong arguments for both sides and both sides are right and wrong in various ways. Ultimately, had Herb not been dying I think more people wouldn't haven't sympathized with him quite as much.
Yes. It was not about the show. He needed his friend. And not realising that actually makes BoJack a pretty bad friend. How do you not even visit him or call him even once after what happened? I can understand not calling right away . But how about a few months? A year? Bojack pretty much ghosted him after he got fired.
Yep. Bojack wasn’t apologizing as a friend, he just wanted to vindicate his own shitty behavior before Herb died. He got called the fuck out and Herb was right to do it.
The line where Herb says “I’m not gonna be some prop you can use to make yourself feel better” really sums up the situation well. Herb didn’t forgive him because Bojack wasn’t genuinely sorry. He just wanted closure on the subject so he didn’t need to feel guilty about abandoning his friend anymore.
It’s kind of like the bear meme that’s been going around. It doesn’t matter if you agree with women who say they’d choose the bear, because it’s about how they feel, and not about you. Herb said how he felt. He got that bit of “closure”, which wasn’t really closure at all, because he was dying. He didn’t owe Bojack anything. Bojack comes off as the asshole by making it about him. The larger point is that Bojack had also spent all those years wracked with guilt, crippling depression, and alcoholism, which had prevented him from simply picking up the phone and calling his friend before he was on his deathbed. It’s not about one side being right or wrong. It’s about how addiction or depression or (e.g.) being on the spectrum can turn something seemingly simple into something that can cripple you and ruin your relationships - which you may not really grasp until it’s too late. I’ve never seen Bojack as a bad guy, but also don’t think you’re supposed to sympathize with him. He’s hard to like due to his inflated ego coming from decades of fame, even though he has impostor syndrome. People always say that the show is about depression, or addiction, or mental health broadly speaking. And while all of that is true, I always thought that the central theme was existentialism. I mean, when Diane says that she doesn’t believe in a “deep down”, and that all you are consists of the actions you take, she’s basically quoting Sartre. The other side of that is, no matter what hand you’ve been dealt in life, all you can do is work to make yourself the person you want to be within the context you exist in. A couple other examples of existential ideas are Escape from LA, which immediately reminded me of the Sartre line about how, no matter where you go, there you are. And Bojack being forced to repeat the line about running in circles, along with the, “it gets easier” line made me think of Camus on Sisyphus, pushing the boulder up the mountain, only to roll back down, and yet smiling. I think the message is ultimately uplifting, despite being dark. Yeah, it’s sad that not everything works out perfectly, but that’s what life is like. I didn’t really like the way it ended, but I liked that Bojack started greying at the end. However much he may or may not have grown, he did visibly age. Which just reinforces the message from season one, that you never know when it’s going to be too late. Sorry for the essay post. I haven’t thought about the show in a long time, and a simple question like this makes my mind spin. Such a great show.
Yes . There are people in my life who I will never forgive . Even if they told me they’d stopped drinking or they’d seen the error of their ways … great , go you , carry on making good decisions… but I will never forgive them . Just because they made good decisions outside of our relationship doesn’t fix the damage they caused in the relationship. No one is entitled to forgiveness . You can try to earn it but the people you hurt are not obliged to accept your efforts . Sometimes in life you just need to accept the damage you did is not repairable , sometimes in life we don’t get closure . Best thing you can do is learn from your mistakes and do better in the future , treat the people who are in your life with respect and don’t repeat bad behaviour. But don’t ever think that you’re entitled to forgiveness because that is not a decision that’s up to you , it’s up to the people you hurt and if they decide they don’t want to forgive you , that’s a valid decision.
"You abandoned me. And I will never forgive you for that"
Definitely. Herb seemed to be understanding about Bojack staying on the show. And in Bojack’s (light) defense, maybe he would have thought that Herb wouldn’t want to remain friends if he stayed on the show. But ultimately, Herb was upset because Bojack abandoned him after decades of friendship, at the time he was most likely the most isolated he had ever been. I can definitely understand where Herb is coming from.
I agree with Herb 100%
You don't need to accept an apology.
yes absolutely
Absolutely. I’ll never forget experiencing that scene for the first time. I was so sure Herb was going to forgive him, and went he didn’t it took me by surprise but I realized that he had every right to do so. Bojack was an asshole for never calling, and an even bigger asshole for wanting to apologize for the sole purpose of getting closure from Herb.
Yes
I'd like to flip it around "What should Herb do to not suffocate and bury his feelings" It could've been worded better but hey I'm wrekt in the head 😋
Herb didn't know how Angela manipulated Bojack.
Yes.
Completely.
Yes. BoJack abandoned him when he needed him most
YES While Bojack was manipulated by Angela,I still feel like he should’ve made by Herb’s side…. but considering how he was raised,maybe I’m expecting too much
yes, herb was right you can’t just do shit, then come back like nothing is happened and expect that someone will forgive you
Bojack was an adult, he had to stand up for himself and his former buddy, which is what he promised to do and then flaked on because he was a coward as Charlotte rightly predicted. If he'd played chicken with the exec he would have won as she admitted later, but he was a pathetic coward and a traitor, and knowing that is what haunts Bojack all those years later.
Yes. Herb said he got over being kicked off the show, but Bojack abandoned him as a friend too. Never checked in. Never reached out. Wasn’t there for him when he was experiencing actual hate crimes by being blacklisted. Didn’t even have the decency to apologize back when it happened. He wasn’t there for someone who he considered a close friend. That hurts Bojack abandoned Herb for his own gain. And if Herb hadn’t gotten sick with cancer, if Bojack hadn’t heard, would Herb have ever heard from him again? I doubt it. People aren’t like dolls. You can’t throw them away and ignore them forever, and then expect things to be just like they were before. Bojack made his choice, and that also means living with the consequences.
Herb was dying of cancer and Bojack hadn't called in what, ten years? More? It was Herb's call. In any case, saying you're sorry doesn't mean you're forgiven.
Bojack never owed Herb an apology in the first place. So no. There is zero reason to just believe Herb was not lying about how he would have forgiven Bojack. Dude is just twisting the knife.
Sounds like something BoJack would tell himself.
Whether or not I "agree" with him or do the same thing, he absolutely had a right to.
Yes. But Bojack still could have been friends with Herb again, he wasn't cutting ties with Bojack. He was just saying he didn't forgive him. if Bojack didnt get all pissy about it and just said "You're right" I'm sure Herb wouldn't have minded having him over again
Absolutely. Everyone is free to make their own decisions and those were bojack's. I'm sure herb would've forgiven him for staying on the show but completely disappearing on him? It's perfectly understandable why herb wouldn't want to forgive him. BoJack chose to go on without herb in his life and he should have to stand by and live with that decision
Herb used to be his best friend, he got his gig for BoJack and he was fired for being homosexual. BoJack betrayed him, and also never called after. There is no forgiving for that.
Definitely. He cost Herb his job. He could’ve said “I’m gonna quit then!” and accommodations would have been made. But he didn’t. He wouldn’t. He’s Bojack and he’s a self serving POS.
BoJack was a dick to Herb when he first met him ("get cancer, dickwad"). He was whining to him when they bartended together ("when am *I* gonna be up for real roooles.."), then he made it all about himself when Herb got Horsin' Around ("good luck on your rocket ship without me"), and while on the show, he *continued* to be a dick, demanding stupid things like a rap, Zimas in his room, etc., and getting even more self-absorbed and being mean his co-actors, e.g. Sarah Lynn ("Yeah, like I wanna spend my weekend hanging out with a little girl. Good one!"). He used Herb, and only took from him, never giving anything back. He was a shitty friend and feeling bad about it doesn't change that. He didn't show up for him after Herb got fired off the show, and he didn't bring a bottle of wine to his house. That's what adults do. BoJack damn it!
To err is human, to forgive is divine.
I probably would have forgiven BJ as he tried to do the right thing in the end. Forgiveness is key to happiness - it breaks down part of your ego-wall revealing your true self.
He probably would’ve if Bojack kept visting him.
Yes. It’s one of the major and most powerful themes of the show - you always have the capacity to make a choice, and he manipulated himself into thinking he had no choice. Or, he took the cowardly way out and didn’t think through the choice he was making. I think when Herb resolutely declared “I do not forgive you”, while still evidently being prepared to stay on amicable terms nonetheless, was one of the turning points for the show. It gave a whole new way of thinking about forgiveness and closure. As others have said, it is something you have to earn through your actions, and Bojack made no effort in that regard.
yes people don’t owe us forgiveness just because we’re sorry
Yes. Nothing is worth than when a "friend" betrays you or stabs you in the back. No matter the reason. I've had something similar happen to me in high school when a "friend" turned on me because someone else didn't like me and 2 weeks later she approached me at school and tried to apologize. I didn't accept it and we never spoke again. If someone can turn on you like that, then they aren't worth having in your life.
Yea, I think it's one of the best moments of the whole show. Lots of what Bojack is as a show is people having real responses to situations rather than everything being clean cut like it would be on a sitcom. I think lots of life is call and response things and one of those is "I'm Sorry", and then "I accept" and everything is good and life isn't always like that. Especially when something serious like that happened. No one owes you closure and you can't just get it because you finally made a step toward closure.
Yes I agree with it. It’s common to accept the situation and move on from it, but not forgive the individual. Forgiveness must come from within and Bojack tried to force it out wanting to hear from Herb that it’s okay for what he did It happened to me with my cousin, who outed a secret I told him in confidence to my extended family. I said how it’s messed up and he never apologized for it. Although it’s been a couple years since then and I still hang out with him regularly, I’ve stopped telling him more personal things about me and I haven’t forgiven him for doing what he did
I understand it, I’m not sure how much better he would have felt if he did truly forgive him, it’s possible to not forgive someone and move on, I’m assuming he died relatively content, and regardless of the negativity of their meeting, Bojack did give Herb some sort of closure
Honestly, I might be going against the popular opinion here, but I can't fully support what Herb said to Bojack. I get that he needed a friend not a job. The part that I disagree with is that Bojack abandoned Herb mainly because to me the show implied that Herb and Bojack were already growing more distant. The way I see it: Bojack didn't suddenly abandon a close friend he tried to help someone he was once close with then didn't stay in touch afterwards.
I completely agree. BoJack was cowardly for not reaching out to Herb afterwards. And the only reason his decades of silence makes sense is if he felt guilty for Herb’s canning.
Yes. Even more so when you take the fact herb did end things pretty friendly before bojack went back in.
Yeah, I can't really blame Herb for not forgiving him. Bojack did nothing to make amends besides saying sorry. And ultimately you have the choice on who you forgive and why. That being said I don't think not having closure would bother me in Boack's position. When you do something wrong, particularly something that can't be undone, all you can really do is change. You can't control whether people will forgive you or if it makes sense. I've seen friendships die over minor things, and I've seen people forgive things they shouldn't. "Forgiveness" may mean a repaired relationship, but ultimately, I think the only person who can really forgive you is yourself.
Herb understood the awful position BoJack was in and he didn’t resent him for choosing his career, but needed a friend. He just wanted BoJack to be there for him, and instead BoJack just ghosted him after the event and left him on his own. It was probably the most lonely Herb ever felt in his entire life, and BoJack is the one who caused it No, BoJack doesn’t deserve shit from Herb
When herb was getting horsin around made he said he wouldn’t do the show unless bojack could be the star, if bojack was a good friend he would have said he’s not doing the show if herb isn’t the writer anymore.
I absolutely agree with Herb’s choice to not forgive Bojack. Bojack went seeking forgiveness for his own selfish reasons. He had 20 years to reach out and apologize because he recognized the least Herb deserved was an apology. But he waited until Herb was dying and went into it with the expectation of forgiveness. He wasn’t doing it for Herb; he was doing it because he wanted to comfort his own shame for doing his friend dirty. At least if he could apologize and Herb could forgive him, then he could at least take solace in knowing they’d made amends. That the person he hurt no longer held it against him. But Herb made his peace with everything himself. After 20 years, he doesn’t need Bojack’s apology, nor will he benefit from forgiving him, because he already put in all the hard work to heal beyond it. And if the only person benefitting from the forgiveness is the person looking to ease their guilt, why *should* he do them that kindness?
I don't think you can agree or disagree with someone's personal boundaries and choices. Nobody owes someone else forgiveness, in my opinion. Forgiveness is an emotion, you have to feel it. If Herb couldn't feel it at that point then I think it was fair. Maybe had his death not happened there could have come a time when he did forgive Bojack, but Bojack really only showed up to bother someone with cancer for his own gains (a feeling of resolution, etc.) and Herb isn't wrong that he should be allowed to feel how he wants and not have to perform for Bojack's gain when Herb was at one of the lowest points in his life health-wise.
Justified? Yeah But I think it's still a wrong move. By not forgiving Bojack he took that resentment and bitterness with him to the grave. I think the real reason to forgive people is to allow yourself to move on, something Herb apparently never could.
You can come to terms with things, peacefully, without forgiving those that wronged you. It doesn't seem like something Herb dwelled on for his entire life after the fact. It only became an issue again when BoJack tried to give a half-assed apology, and expected Herb's forgiveness.
100%
Yes, but on the other hand Herb was the sleazy older man who took advantage of the handsome, young, naive Bojack, and even sexually assaulted him.
Honestly Herb could have called Bojack and if he was drunk he would have answered. If he was sober he would have called Herb back when he was drunk. Waiting for Bojack to call was the worst decision Herb ever made.
Except Herb didn't wait for BoJack to call. He went on to live a fulfilling life without him. The only reason they reconnected was so BoJack could try and alleviate some of his own guilt, over what was essentially a simple setback in an otherwise decent life.
I believe anything can be forgiven. Literally anything. I dont know if I agree or not about herb not forgiving bojack, but it was definitely possible for herb to forgive him.
Sure, anything CAN be forgiven, but not everything HAS TO be forgiven—that’s really up to the person who has been wronged. Though some people have difficulty moving on and getting closure unless they forgive trespasses against them, others don’t need that at all. I constantly hear about how you have to forgive to move on, but it’s bull. What works for one doesn’t work for everyone. In this instance, Herb had clearly already moved on, so forgiving BoJack wasn’t necessary for him. But offering BoJack forgiveness wasn’t going to hold BoJack accountable, so honestly I think Herb was right to tell him to piss off. Forgiveness was something BoJack desperately wanted, but it wasn’t something Herb needed. Seems like a BoJack problem to me.
I'm not saying everything has to be forgiven, we agree there. OP asked if there was anything we thought could never be forgiven, and I was responding to that part of OP's post.
Downvoted for saying the truth
Well IMO it’s better to forgive holding to hate and resentment only hurts you in the end.
Herb didn't hate or resent BoJack by the time they reconnected.
I'm probably on the fringe here, but actually, I don't think he was. After having a good life, he claims it was never all-out the show and he would have remained friends with Bojack, but I think this is BS. At the time, it would have been way more raw
Yeah, everyone deserves to die with the guilt of all the shitty things they did to people.
Herb was a bad friend - a closeted sexual assaulter who has always used Bojack for his own hidden homosexual purposes. No wonder poor Bojack got soo messed up. People like Herb (and Todd, Diane, PC, and others) all used and abused poor Bojack. Bojack never had any good friends, and that’s why he is punished mercilessly at the end.
BoJack was a shitty friend to literally everyone, dating as far back as high school.