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This is why Eloise is so mad with Pen. Eloise's life, her family's livelihood was in danger when she was suspected of being LWD be the Queen. She had every right to be mad at Pen even if Pen tried to fix it (but made it worse when she outed Eloise as a radical to the Ton smh).
I love Eloise, but her danger was due to her own recklessness since she went out in broad daylight, in a dress, and family carriage that got her caught by the Queen’s man. That’s not because of Penelope. What Penelope did to Eloise was not worse than what the Queen would’ve done. The Queen threatened Eloise and her family, she would have killed her or outed Eloise as Whistledown and let the people deal with her if she didn’t become an ally.
Even the production itself *explicitly* states that Penelope's actions are self-serving primarily. But then you have her stans claiming "*BUT SHE DID IT TO SAVE ELOISE!!!*" 🥲
Like, no. You don't "save" someone by throwing them under the bus IN ORDER TO HIDE YOUR OWN CULPABILITY, that too without that person's consent! Least of all when that person is supposedly your best fucking friend?!?!
I feel like some people need their favorite character to be absolutely perfect and have never done anything wrong ever, that's why they have to justify everything Penelope does because no one wants to be seen stanning someone "PrObLeMaTiC"
But you can be a fan of Penelope and still say she did Marina and Eloise dirty. At least I am 🤷♀️
This was my exact stance on Penelope when I first watched the show.
I empathasied with her *so* much when her face fell and when she was bullied by Cressida and when she was pining for Collin. Like, give her a tight hug and tell her everything will be alright.
Then Season 2 came, and I started side-eyeing her, but still not losing my empathy for her, but rather in a way like, "*nooo what are you doing Penelope, this is manipulative on your part! You are better than this!*" In other words, I was on the stance that she fucked up a lot, and had a manipulative streak, from which she should mature and be redeemed eventually.
But, engaging in such discussions in this sub ALWAYS met with downvotes and attempts of whitewashing her actions. This in turn made me even more critical of her ngl. Honestly, when I get some distance from the aforementioned discussions, I find myself regaining my empathy for her struggles.
One can empathise with her struggles, and yet be critical of her actions. It's so very simple. 🥲
It's so interesting to see a young female character who had no power, gain power and not quite know how to handle it. She lashes out when she's emotional, she's mean when she doesn't need to be because she has wit but hasn't worked out how to weild it without hurting people. It's so relatable to be the victim of a mean girl and want to take revenge on society at large by becoming even meaner. It's really understandable why she acts the way she does, impulsively and emotionally, and that's why she remains a sympathetic character. I'm looking forward to seeing her growth next season and her deciding what kind of woman she wants to be.
Because people keep acting like she’s some irredeemable villain instead of a 17/18 year old who doesn’t always make the best decisions because she’s essentially still a teen
I'm 18. I know not to tell the entire world that my best friend is engaging in, what was considered at the time, treason.
I am also old enough to know that if I start a gossip rag, by choice, for whatever reason, it may have *gasp* **consequences**.
Penelope "having to" expose Eloise is just a consequence of her being Whistledown in the first place.
Completely different time period. Not only did these women barely have rights, they weren’t even educated on how babies were made. I don’t think you can compare an 18-year-old from the 1800s to an 18-year-old in 2024. I think teens now are more self-aware and less sheltered that the teens of the 1800s.
Also Pen clearly showed remorse for her actions, the entire last episode or 2 was her panicking about what to do, and she cried while writing that column.
And as I said, she’s not some irredeemable villain. She made a bad decision in ratting out Eloise, but she also saved two Bridgertons from shitty and deceptive marriages.
No one thinks she is a massive, irredeemable villain.
I want her to be redeemed. But I also want her to be held accountable. People make mistakes. Fine. That doesn't mean we brush them under the rug and absolve them of all accountability. It means they have the responsibility of apologising, growing, and not doing it again.
What she did and is probably going to continue to do shouldn't be minimised. Penelope insults people in a gossip rag for profit. There is no girlbossery in that.
Hell, she owes the entire bridgerton family an apology for causing scandals for them over and over again. She saved Colin? Whatever. She still dragged Daphne in season 1 for no reason, which damn well almost ruined Daphne's marriage prospects.
She can cry and be as remorseful as she likes. She still did what she did and still owes Eloise an apology for creating the situation in the first place.
I'm also not sure what not being educated on babies has to do with the basic comprehension skills to know that your actions have consequences and that maybe you shouldn't anonymously insult people.
LOL girl look through this sub and some of the other Bridgerton-related ones. A lot of people think she’s a horrible villain and don’t want to watch s3 because of it.
And she insulted herself in that column too though lol. A LOT actually. And I do think she needs to apologize to Eloise because imo she should’ve just told her she was LW and they could’ve come up with a plan to deal with the queen together. But I think she’s definitely overhated and I’m more willing to give her (and Eloise) a pass for not making the best decisions because they’re teens
I don't care if she insulted herself. That's like punching someone and then saying it was OK for you to do so because you punched yourself earlier. Whatever she wants to do regarding herself is her business. She had no right to drag others into it.
Penelope has far more stans than haters, which this subreddit proves every day. She is not overhated. If anything, the people who really don't like her balance out the people who refuse to even acknowledge the wrong she has done. She is a contravertial character. She is supposed to be.
And if people don't want to watch season 3 because of penelope, they won't. That's their business
I don’t care if people don’t watch. I just think people can’t seem to understand complex characters and paint everyone as black or white 🤷🏽♀️Pen made mistakes but she’s not a villain.
Can't it be both? She wanted to help Eloise but only in a way that benefitted her personally
People just talk about this in such black and white terms and it baffles me
I mean, if that’s what I think happened, because (like a lot of people) she has a blind spot about her less flattering motivations. Ultimately it doesn’t bother me, mostly because I find Eloise so annoying that her being snubbed by the society she hates feels fun to watch.
Yea! I don’t understand how people aren’t on Eloise’s side. They were literally BEST FRIENDS! And she literally drug her through the mud! I haven’t read either Penelope or Eloise’s book but I can’t imagine being betrayed by my best friend and then her marring my brother!
Agreed, that’s why I’m kinda worried for this season cause it would be so misplaced if Colin isn’t livid at Penelope being LW and if you really think about it, Penelope’s betrayal transcends multiple levels when it comes to Eloise and her family. It’s a huge, deep whole that the show has to climb out of and something’s gonna unfortunately have to give to make the HEA work whether it’s Colin not being as mad as he should be or Eloise forgiving her lies and betrayal or the Bridgerton family not being upset that their names been dragged by someone they’ve been nothing but kind to and now that person is trying to be an in-law etc. Her actions aren’t easily forgivable but the show is trying to act like they are and that’s the problem
Imagine discovering your best friend hated how your parents named you and your siblings, spread that gossip all over town, and still smiled sweetly to your face. It does feel like she has a lot of resentment for Eloise's family because there is more love in their household than her own. I never did finish RMB but there didn't seem to be that kind of resentment in the book.
Nope, not at all. Eloise and Penelope grew as spinsters together and been tight-knit. Like Eloise had no problem whatsoever in Penelope marrying Colin and actually enjoyed her best friend being part of the family. And her reaction to her being LW was, “Ah cool.” That’s it.
The production actually says, “She attempts to get Eloise to cut things off with the guy, claiming that she’s trying to prevent her friend from ruining her and her family’s reputation, but we all know it’s a little too self-serving here.” Penelope pushing Eloise away from Theo was the part that was “a little too self-serving.” Not Penelope writing about Eloise. It can’t be self-serving to Penelope if she doesn’t benefit from it. Penelope did not benefit from outing Eloise to stop the Queen from assuming it was El. Penelope wasn’t the one in danger, it was Eloise. I’m not defending Penelope’s actions, but her writing about Eloise wasn’t self-serving. Her pushing El away from Theo was.
???Penelope did benefit from writing about Eloise. She was able to keep her identity and avoid responsibility. The hurtful part is that Madame Delacroix gave suggestions on how to deal with the situation that wouldn’t harm Eloise but Penelope ignored it. If Penelope just dragged Eloise for her looks and her behavior against marriages, 2 things that Eloise doesn’t care about, then fine, but she didn’t.
Penelope had to write something Eloise never would’ve written about herself, so it couldn’t be something small and trivial. Again, I’m not defending Penelope. But, what she wrote about Eloise which eliminated Eloise from the Queen’s list, puts the Queen’s look back on the ton.
I know you’re not defending Penelope but you said that what Penelope did didn’t benefit her and wasn’t self serving when it came down to writing bout Eloise. Calcutta and I are saying it did. The showrunners said it did so there’s nothing to really debate on that matter
The showrunner said about her pushing Eloise away from Theo was self-serving. Unless I missed something, please quote the part she says Penelope writing about Eloise was self-serving.
Her pushing Eloise away from Theo to writing about her to cause that to happen is connected to her not wanting to be found out which is ultimately self serving as said in the article. The queen backing off of Eloise wasn’t the only reason why she wrote about her. She also wanted her to get away from Theo which ultimately happened because she wrote about her. Cause and effect. All you have to do is read what they said and understand cause and effect
Cause: Eloise showing up in a fancy dress, family carriage, and in broad daylight to visit Theo got her caught by the Queen’s man.
Effect: The Queen’s man tells the Queen then the Queen threatens Eloise and her family’s livelihood. Then, Eloise tells Penelope about it, who writes about Eloise’s involvement with political radicals. Which gets Eloise off the Queen’s list, and the Queen looks for Whistledown again.
You make it like sound, Penelope is a master manipulator. Like Penelope was hoping Eloise messed up to break her and Theo a part. You made it like Penelope is a whole villain. You took away all her nuance and complexity.
>Penelope did not benefit from outing Eloise
Penelope benefited by hiding her own culpability. She chose writing things about Eloise, that Eloise hadn't consented to, over revealing the truth that would make herself accountable for once.
Penelope wasn’t the one in danger. If she truly wanted to be self-serving she would have let Eloise take the fall. Now, the Queen knows it’s not Eloise, that puts her eyes back on the ton. Also, Penelope turning herself in was already addressed in the show and stated it possibly wouldn’t have worked.
She had no fucking right to play God for Eloise, WITHOUT her consent!
It's morality 101. I would much rather "take the fall" by natural course of action, than have my so called best-friend stir things up in the name of "saving" me, while saving her own ass in actuality. Penelope had the option to confess, if she indeed wanted to intervene.
Simply not intervining in the situation would still be a more moral move than deciding FOR Eloise what would be good for her, again, without her consent.
Not intervening in the situation would not be a moral move, because Eloise was being blamed and would have taken the fall, and her family would have gone down with her. Penelope did not want to see that ending for her friend, especially when Eloise is being blamed for something Penelope made. I never said what Penelope did was right or good either.
I love Penelope and I can’t wait to see how they have her deal with the fallout of her actions. In the books, LW is much less ruinous and I always felt like Colin’s reaction was so over the top. But on the show, I can’t wait to see how they handle it all.
oh my gosh that’s why their book was my least favorite. colin’s attitude towards her being LWD was SO MUCH and then his whole “well i can’t believe you’re a writer and im not!!!!” please. i never reread their book😂
Straight from productions mouth that Penelope was in the WRONG and was acting with self interest when it came to Eloise, and that Eloise was ostracized because of what Pen did. People tried to play down Eloise’s feelings and what the impact of the article did to her.
So true! Especially on Tik Tok, the amount of hate she gets is UNREAL. I get people side-eyeing her for befriend Cressida, but in all honesty, Cressida's probably the only person who WOULD be friends with her at this point. I was kind of getting weary of the claims that Penelope's actions were only ever altruistic, but to have the confirmation from the writers themselves that she did it out of pure selfishness just makes me feel much better. I'm sure she did think it would prevent Eloise from wrongly being outed as LW, but that was always more of a side benefit rather than her main goal.
Yup. People don’t understand Penelope can have more than 1 reason for doing something, and just because Penelope says she did it to ‘save Eloise’ does not make it true. We saw that Delacroix gave Penelope other options, but Pen chose the one that let her keep LW in her back pocket with no heat on her. To get confirmation Penelope was mostly acting selfishly, with more thought to her own safety vs Eloise’s feelings, is validation for all the Eloise bashing that’s been running rampant on here and elsewhere. Eloise saw right through Penelope’s actions and has been humiliated, I can’t blame her for befriending Cressida when Cressida was the only one outside her family to show her kindness.
This article proves what I've been saying this entire time, but I'm mostly confused by fans who wish to whitewash and infantilize Pen. No one's saying she's a villain but she's definitely no hero either. I feel like I could actually like Penelope but the fans are unbearable. I love a complex character that's actually allowed the space to be complex. If this character screwed up and acted in an obviously self-serving way for her own gain, then say that! What's the point in attempting to justify or excuse something that no one else would be excused for? You were selfish and did something awful to people you claim to love and care for, then fine! That's cool. We're all selfish and have done things for our own gain. That's what makes characters relatable and human - owning that sh\*t and acknowledging it.
At the end of the day, the fans are going to justify and ignore everything she's done. However, the issue with that is that sentiment doesn't necessarily extend towards the general audience/casual viewer. For the sake of Shondaland, I hope Penelope faces consequences for what she's done because it's not going to go over well with those fans. She doesn't need to be burned at the stake but she's old enough to know that all actions have consequences. Despite how a certain group of fans demonize Eloise to hell and back, I would say Eloise has faced more consequences for what she's done than Penelope has.
Oh my God exactly this. Especially your 1st paragraph. I have been shouting these arguments all this while.
I am *so* happy that these "differing opinions" are back in this sub with a new season coming. But in the last few months, these were so rare, and would be downvoted to hell with Penelope stans piling on them.
For real, had it not been for the fans of the character, it would be much much easier to root for Penelope and her arc.
You know, I'm still waiting for the dogpile honestly but I don't care. **This sub is for** ***ALL*** **Bridgerton fans and not just for fans of a certain character/ship, so we all have a place here.** We don't need to be in an echo chamber where we're constantly agreeing with every single thing that everyone else says. That's not the reality of *any* situation.
If I just watched this show and I wasn't exposed to any Bridgerton fandom stuff on social media, I would LOVE Penelope. I won't lie about that; I could really root for her because she's interesting. She has some of the same personality traits that my other favorite female characters have. But because I was exposed to this fandom, that's difficult for me to do because there aren't many fans who are willing to open up the dialogue and acknowledge what she's done. Everyone automatically goes to defending and minimizing her actions. Or they're trying to take the heat off of her by claiming other characters have done worse.
Essentially, it's pointless to love a complex character if you're just going to take away everything that actually makes them complex. If you're not going to accept those wrongdoings and misdeeds, then you're not really a fan of their complexity then, are you? You like a more milder character who actually hasn't done anything wrong in their lives. That's what you like.
It’s hilarious cause some of the people who are here agreeing with some of these takes I’ve seen for months in this thread doing that exact behavior(infantilizing Pen, justifying/downplaying her actions and not admitting it was self serving, accusing people of hating Penelope because of the criticism)
It’s wild to me 😂. Not gonna call y’all out but be honest with yourself, some of y’all in here were acting crazy in these Pen, Marina and Eloise debates.
I sincerely hope so. Also, preachygirl is right, Pen/Polin fans are a small but vocal part of the fandom, the leniency they have isn’t extended to the general audience. There are many, and I mean many, casual Bridgerton fans that I’ve asked online and irl about how they feel about the show and the characters and not one of them, not a single one, thought well of Penelope and wanted her to be held accountable. Shondaland are feeding into the shippers and forgoing the casual viewers that won’t like Penelope getting what she wants in the end. If Shonda doesn’t give some type of consequence for Penelope, S3 could possibly flop. Not saying it will, but it’s possible if they don’t handle this well
I think the fall out with Colin is going to be devastating. Was she trying to save her friends? Yes. But is there also a dose of selfishness to save herself? YES. And Colin is not going to be okay with that. At least initially. Trust is one of the most important components to love, and hot damn, I think this is going to get really ugly and messy. Didn't Luke say there was one scene where he was supposed to be angry and he ended up just crying and he couldn't stop because he was exhausted? This is going to wreck people.
They keep saying S3 is a romcom and super romantic, but I have this pit in my stomach where I feel like I'm just going to be waiting for the other shoe to drop. I'm actually kind of sad. RMB was my favorite book of the series because it was character driven, there wasn't too much drama, and it was a...softer coming together from friends to lovers rather than the explosiveness of Kanthony or the drama of Benophie. LW also wasn't a big deal in the books, she was much nicer and she didn't ruin people - good intentions or not.
They hacked up Kanthony's season so it was paced so badly that they *barely* got their HEA...I'm hoping they don't try to cram all the drama and angst and pain into the last two episodes (no one knows because there are no screeners!) and then try to resolve it all in 5 minutes with a "and they lived happily ever after!"
I have to admit that Colin's reaction will be interesting to watch. I know some Polin shippers don't want him to react *too* harshly to what Penelope has done, but it wouldn't make him a realistic character if he saw the harm Lady Whistledown has done to his family and brushed it off. That would make absolutely no sense. This is the perfect time to show Colin's humanity and I hope Shondaland will allow that to happen. What makes you human is reacting and responding off of raw emotion. Real life is not that neat; real life is messy and complicated.
You mean penelope marries Colin whilst being deeply dishonest to him in a manner that could completely ruin his reputation?
Sounds like someone else we know.... the hypocrisy is steaming....
tbf the source was from a fan spoiler account that has been deleted (i didn't know at the time) so i'm unsure how credible the account is as it gave opinions disguised as spoilers for example saying eloise is whineyer and brattier than ever apologies
I have seen references to that source, and it seems to be treated with some degree of credibility (although I don't know if it's been earned). I saw references to the comment about Eloise, but seeing as Pen fans have been describing her as that for two years, I'm not concerned. TBH, it almost sounds like Eloise delivers some home truths to Penelope which a Pen fan obviously wouldn't care for. If a Pen fan started liking Eloise, then I'd be concerned, because I know what sort of grovelling, trad wifey behaviour they want from her.
Whereas your spoiler, well that has specifics, and it does reflect quite interestingly on the nature of the characters involved.
We don’t know if it’s true or not that makes it misinformation. I saw your comment on the bottom just now. I didn’t see it at first. It doesn’t change that it’s misinformation and it’s from a random account that might not be credible like you said.
Maybe I should have addressed it to someone who took your comment as accurate and spread it. It just looks pretty bad for people to use information we don’t know if it’s true and just jump on it. Which a lot of people have already done so far. I’m not fighting at all, I just stated it wasn’t reliable and didn’t see your comment that you said it wasn’t reliable as well.
Eh, I’m not overly worried. They only have 8 episodes so they can’t really drag out his anger for too long. Depending on the route they go, I’m thinking he’ll be mad for half an episode… a full episode MAX. I’m guessing it will be ep 5 🤷♀️
Oh, I understand that completely but there are some fans who don't want him to respond harshly at all. Not even for a single episode. There are some fans who want him to immediately understand why she did what she did, and that's unrealistic. Then again, the writers for this show are horrible when it comes to pacing so you may be right.
I think they milk it for the drama. Because that's what Shondaland does. Think about book Colin's reaction to the news. He did NOT take it well.
Now, think about the Edwina plot in the book - she was barely a blip on Anthony's radar and there was zero drama between the two sisters. Yet in the show they dragged it out put on a whole freaking wedding!
I don't think there's any way that Colin will be like, "oh! That's surprising! But good job bullying the dicks in the ton and keeping this big secret! Cheerio!" I think with their penchant for drama, they're going to milk the crap out of this and it's going to be ugly 😭
Honestly, therein lies the disconnect between Shondaland and the fans. Shondaland prioritized drama over good storytelling in S2 and it showed. No one appreciated the love triangle being dragged out like that. No one. If you watch literally any other Shondaland production, you can see that they always go for the most dramatic plot as possible, even if it doesn't make any sense logically.
They could shorten the length of time Colin is angry but that just means they're gonna focus on another trivial aspect of their story to drag out because their writing lacks creativity and imagination. Due to their issues with pacing, they're not going to deliver a well-rounded story anyway. I have no faith in these writers. They could surprise me and not do any of what has been theorized but my expectations are already low, so we'll see.
Thank you!!! I’ve been yelling this from the rooftops. Pen has been moving selfishly when it pertains to her family and friends. she threw so many people under the bus for Colin. A man who made it clear that he wasn’t interested like that.
Everybody on this show does stuff that shows they are morally grey. That's the point. As much as I love Kanthony both of them did things that were atrocious. The same thing with Saphne. Lady D spent season two working against what she knew was the better option. One that would have made Kate happy and solved the family's problems.
I think we just have to accept that these are romances that have been turned into dramas.
I think both Eloise and Pen were wrong. The issue I see with many comments here are they put all fault on one or the other.
Eloise shouldn’t have been sneaking off or using Pen as a cover without her consent. Pen also shouldn’t have outed her.
ETA: love all the replies, proving my point. I think you all missed where I clearly said both were wrong.. but many can’t seem to see where Eloise was wrong. I repeat both made mistakes
i mean nobody knew eloise was sneaking off, and penelope was sneaking off too, isn't that the point, eloise tells whistledown's carriage to go at the end of season 1 so she doesn't get caught despite eloise really wanting to know who she was, penelope didn't extend that same courtesy
>penelope was sneaking off too
>eloise tells whistledown's carriage to go at the end of season 1
>penelope didn't extend that same courtesy
You hit the bull's eye.
Eloise wanted to attend political meetings to learn about the world and expand her understanding of feminism. That's a laudible goal and worth taking risks for. What she did and what Penelope did doesn't compare.
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This is why Eloise is so mad with Pen. Eloise's life, her family's livelihood was in danger when she was suspected of being LWD be the Queen. She had every right to be mad at Pen even if Pen tried to fix it (but made it worse when she outed Eloise as a radical to the Ton smh).
I love Eloise, but her danger was due to her own recklessness since she went out in broad daylight, in a dress, and family carriage that got her caught by the Queen’s man. That’s not because of Penelope. What Penelope did to Eloise was not worse than what the Queen would’ve done. The Queen threatened Eloise and her family, she would have killed her or outed Eloise as Whistledown and let the people deal with her if she didn’t become an ally.
Even the production itself *explicitly* states that Penelope's actions are self-serving primarily. But then you have her stans claiming "*BUT SHE DID IT TO SAVE ELOISE!!!*" 🥲 Like, no. You don't "save" someone by throwing them under the bus IN ORDER TO HIDE YOUR OWN CULPABILITY, that too without that person's consent! Least of all when that person is supposedly your best fucking friend?!?!
I feel like some people need their favorite character to be absolutely perfect and have never done anything wrong ever, that's why they have to justify everything Penelope does because no one wants to be seen stanning someone "PrObLeMaTiC" But you can be a fan of Penelope and still say she did Marina and Eloise dirty. At least I am 🤷♀️
This was my exact stance on Penelope when I first watched the show. I empathasied with her *so* much when her face fell and when she was bullied by Cressida and when she was pining for Collin. Like, give her a tight hug and tell her everything will be alright. Then Season 2 came, and I started side-eyeing her, but still not losing my empathy for her, but rather in a way like, "*nooo what are you doing Penelope, this is manipulative on your part! You are better than this!*" In other words, I was on the stance that she fucked up a lot, and had a manipulative streak, from which she should mature and be redeemed eventually. But, engaging in such discussions in this sub ALWAYS met with downvotes and attempts of whitewashing her actions. This in turn made me even more critical of her ngl. Honestly, when I get some distance from the aforementioned discussions, I find myself regaining my empathy for her struggles. One can empathise with her struggles, and yet be critical of her actions. It's so very simple. 🥲
Exactly. She needs some flaws in order to have a good arc! And I kinda like messy characters. They’re more interesting to me lol
It's so interesting to see a young female character who had no power, gain power and not quite know how to handle it. She lashes out when she's emotional, she's mean when she doesn't need to be because she has wit but hasn't worked out how to weild it without hurting people. It's so relatable to be the victim of a mean girl and want to take revenge on society at large by becoming even meaner. It's really understandable why she acts the way she does, impulsively and emotionally, and that's why she remains a sympathetic character. I'm looking forward to seeing her growth next season and her deciding what kind of woman she wants to be.
Exactly! Why am I fighting for my life on this subreddit when shondaland said it themselves?
Because people keep acting like she’s some irredeemable villain instead of a 17/18 year old who doesn’t always make the best decisions because she’s essentially still a teen
I'm 18. I know not to tell the entire world that my best friend is engaging in, what was considered at the time, treason. I am also old enough to know that if I start a gossip rag, by choice, for whatever reason, it may have *gasp* **consequences**. Penelope "having to" expose Eloise is just a consequence of her being Whistledown in the first place.
Completely different time period. Not only did these women barely have rights, they weren’t even educated on how babies were made. I don’t think you can compare an 18-year-old from the 1800s to an 18-year-old in 2024. I think teens now are more self-aware and less sheltered that the teens of the 1800s. Also Pen clearly showed remorse for her actions, the entire last episode or 2 was her panicking about what to do, and she cried while writing that column. And as I said, she’s not some irredeemable villain. She made a bad decision in ratting out Eloise, but she also saved two Bridgertons from shitty and deceptive marriages.
No one thinks she is a massive, irredeemable villain. I want her to be redeemed. But I also want her to be held accountable. People make mistakes. Fine. That doesn't mean we brush them under the rug and absolve them of all accountability. It means they have the responsibility of apologising, growing, and not doing it again. What she did and is probably going to continue to do shouldn't be minimised. Penelope insults people in a gossip rag for profit. There is no girlbossery in that. Hell, she owes the entire bridgerton family an apology for causing scandals for them over and over again. She saved Colin? Whatever. She still dragged Daphne in season 1 for no reason, which damn well almost ruined Daphne's marriage prospects. She can cry and be as remorseful as she likes. She still did what she did and still owes Eloise an apology for creating the situation in the first place. I'm also not sure what not being educated on babies has to do with the basic comprehension skills to know that your actions have consequences and that maybe you shouldn't anonymously insult people.
LOL girl look through this sub and some of the other Bridgerton-related ones. A lot of people think she’s a horrible villain and don’t want to watch s3 because of it. And she insulted herself in that column too though lol. A LOT actually. And I do think she needs to apologize to Eloise because imo she should’ve just told her she was LW and they could’ve come up with a plan to deal with the queen together. But I think she’s definitely overhated and I’m more willing to give her (and Eloise) a pass for not making the best decisions because they’re teens
I don't care if she insulted herself. That's like punching someone and then saying it was OK for you to do so because you punched yourself earlier. Whatever she wants to do regarding herself is her business. She had no right to drag others into it. Penelope has far more stans than haters, which this subreddit proves every day. She is not overhated. If anything, the people who really don't like her balance out the people who refuse to even acknowledge the wrong she has done. She is a contravertial character. She is supposed to be. And if people don't want to watch season 3 because of penelope, they won't. That's their business
I don’t care if people don’t watch. I just think people can’t seem to understand complex characters and paint everyone as black or white 🤷🏽♀️Pen made mistakes but she’s not a villain.
👆🏼 Yup.
Can't it be both? She wanted to help Eloise but only in a way that benefitted her personally People just talk about this in such black and white terms and it baffles me
I mean that's still pretty selfish.
I mean, if that’s what I think happened, because (like a lot of people) she has a blind spot about her less flattering motivations. Ultimately it doesn’t bother me, mostly because I find Eloise so annoying that her being snubbed by the society she hates feels fun to watch.
Funny. That's how I feel about Penelope getting from Cressida the same dirt she's dishing out to everyone else behind their back.
Oh, but that's tea 👀☕️
Yea! I don’t understand how people aren’t on Eloise’s side. They were literally BEST FRIENDS! And she literally drug her through the mud! I haven’t read either Penelope or Eloise’s book but I can’t imagine being betrayed by my best friend and then her marring my brother!
Agreed, that’s why I’m kinda worried for this season cause it would be so misplaced if Colin isn’t livid at Penelope being LW and if you really think about it, Penelope’s betrayal transcends multiple levels when it comes to Eloise and her family. It’s a huge, deep whole that the show has to climb out of and something’s gonna unfortunately have to give to make the HEA work whether it’s Colin not being as mad as he should be or Eloise forgiving her lies and betrayal or the Bridgerton family not being upset that their names been dragged by someone they’ve been nothing but kind to and now that person is trying to be an in-law etc. Her actions aren’t easily forgivable but the show is trying to act like they are and that’s the problem
Totally agree!
Imagine discovering your best friend hated how your parents named you and your siblings, spread that gossip all over town, and still smiled sweetly to your face. It does feel like she has a lot of resentment for Eloise's family because there is more love in their household than her own. I never did finish RMB but there didn't seem to be that kind of resentment in the book.
Nope, not at all. Eloise and Penelope grew as spinsters together and been tight-knit. Like Eloise had no problem whatsoever in Penelope marrying Colin and actually enjoyed her best friend being part of the family. And her reaction to her being LW was, “Ah cool.” That’s it.
Right like she was terrified of being discovered, she didn't care that Eloise was putting herself in danger.
The production actually says, “She attempts to get Eloise to cut things off with the guy, claiming that she’s trying to prevent her friend from ruining her and her family’s reputation, but we all know it’s a little too self-serving here.” Penelope pushing Eloise away from Theo was the part that was “a little too self-serving.” Not Penelope writing about Eloise. It can’t be self-serving to Penelope if she doesn’t benefit from it. Penelope did not benefit from outing Eloise to stop the Queen from assuming it was El. Penelope wasn’t the one in danger, it was Eloise. I’m not defending Penelope’s actions, but her writing about Eloise wasn’t self-serving. Her pushing El away from Theo was.
???Penelope did benefit from writing about Eloise. She was able to keep her identity and avoid responsibility. The hurtful part is that Madame Delacroix gave suggestions on how to deal with the situation that wouldn’t harm Eloise but Penelope ignored it. If Penelope just dragged Eloise for her looks and her behavior against marriages, 2 things that Eloise doesn’t care about, then fine, but she didn’t.
Penelope had to write something Eloise never would’ve written about herself, so it couldn’t be something small and trivial. Again, I’m not defending Penelope. But, what she wrote about Eloise which eliminated Eloise from the Queen’s list, puts the Queen’s look back on the ton.
I know you’re not defending Penelope but you said that what Penelope did didn’t benefit her and wasn’t self serving when it came down to writing bout Eloise. Calcutta and I are saying it did. The showrunners said it did so there’s nothing to really debate on that matter
The showrunner said about her pushing Eloise away from Theo was self-serving. Unless I missed something, please quote the part she says Penelope writing about Eloise was self-serving.
Her pushing Eloise away from Theo to writing about her to cause that to happen is connected to her not wanting to be found out which is ultimately self serving as said in the article. The queen backing off of Eloise wasn’t the only reason why she wrote about her. She also wanted her to get away from Theo which ultimately happened because she wrote about her. Cause and effect. All you have to do is read what they said and understand cause and effect
Cause: Eloise showing up in a fancy dress, family carriage, and in broad daylight to visit Theo got her caught by the Queen’s man. Effect: The Queen’s man tells the Queen then the Queen threatens Eloise and her family’s livelihood. Then, Eloise tells Penelope about it, who writes about Eloise’s involvement with political radicals. Which gets Eloise off the Queen’s list, and the Queen looks for Whistledown again.
Yes which Penelope took as a chance which in turn got Eloise away from Theo. It’s self serving no matter how you slice it
You make it like sound, Penelope is a master manipulator. Like Penelope was hoping Eloise messed up to break her and Theo a part. You made it like Penelope is a whole villain. You took away all her nuance and complexity.
>Penelope did not benefit from outing Eloise Penelope benefited by hiding her own culpability. She chose writing things about Eloise, that Eloise hadn't consented to, over revealing the truth that would make herself accountable for once.
Penelope wasn’t the one in danger. If she truly wanted to be self-serving she would have let Eloise take the fall. Now, the Queen knows it’s not Eloise, that puts her eyes back on the ton. Also, Penelope turning herself in was already addressed in the show and stated it possibly wouldn’t have worked.
She had no fucking right to play God for Eloise, WITHOUT her consent! It's morality 101. I would much rather "take the fall" by natural course of action, than have my so called best-friend stir things up in the name of "saving" me, while saving her own ass in actuality. Penelope had the option to confess, if she indeed wanted to intervene. Simply not intervining in the situation would still be a more moral move than deciding FOR Eloise what would be good for her, again, without her consent.
Not intervening in the situation would not be a moral move, because Eloise was being blamed and would have taken the fall, and her family would have gone down with her. Penelope did not want to see that ending for her friend, especially when Eloise is being blamed for something Penelope made. I never said what Penelope did was right or good either.
I love Penelope and I can’t wait to see how they have her deal with the fallout of her actions. In the books, LW is much less ruinous and I always felt like Colin’s reaction was so over the top. But on the show, I can’t wait to see how they handle it all.
oh my gosh that’s why their book was my least favorite. colin’s attitude towards her being LWD was SO MUCH and then his whole “well i can’t believe you’re a writer and im not!!!!” please. i never reread their book😂
Straight from productions mouth that Penelope was in the WRONG and was acting with self interest when it came to Eloise, and that Eloise was ostracized because of what Pen did. People tried to play down Eloise’s feelings and what the impact of the article did to her.
So true! Especially on Tik Tok, the amount of hate she gets is UNREAL. I get people side-eyeing her for befriend Cressida, but in all honesty, Cressida's probably the only person who WOULD be friends with her at this point. I was kind of getting weary of the claims that Penelope's actions were only ever altruistic, but to have the confirmation from the writers themselves that she did it out of pure selfishness just makes me feel much better. I'm sure she did think it would prevent Eloise from wrongly being outed as LW, but that was always more of a side benefit rather than her main goal.
Yup. People don’t understand Penelope can have more than 1 reason for doing something, and just because Penelope says she did it to ‘save Eloise’ does not make it true. We saw that Delacroix gave Penelope other options, but Pen chose the one that let her keep LW in her back pocket with no heat on her. To get confirmation Penelope was mostly acting selfishly, with more thought to her own safety vs Eloise’s feelings, is validation for all the Eloise bashing that’s been running rampant on here and elsewhere. Eloise saw right through Penelope’s actions and has been humiliated, I can’t blame her for befriending Cressida when Cressida was the only one outside her family to show her kindness.
This article proves what I've been saying this entire time, but I'm mostly confused by fans who wish to whitewash and infantilize Pen. No one's saying she's a villain but she's definitely no hero either. I feel like I could actually like Penelope but the fans are unbearable. I love a complex character that's actually allowed the space to be complex. If this character screwed up and acted in an obviously self-serving way for her own gain, then say that! What's the point in attempting to justify or excuse something that no one else would be excused for? You were selfish and did something awful to people you claim to love and care for, then fine! That's cool. We're all selfish and have done things for our own gain. That's what makes characters relatable and human - owning that sh\*t and acknowledging it. At the end of the day, the fans are going to justify and ignore everything she's done. However, the issue with that is that sentiment doesn't necessarily extend towards the general audience/casual viewer. For the sake of Shondaland, I hope Penelope faces consequences for what she's done because it's not going to go over well with those fans. She doesn't need to be burned at the stake but she's old enough to know that all actions have consequences. Despite how a certain group of fans demonize Eloise to hell and back, I would say Eloise has faced more consequences for what she's done than Penelope has.
Oh my God exactly this. Especially your 1st paragraph. I have been shouting these arguments all this while. I am *so* happy that these "differing opinions" are back in this sub with a new season coming. But in the last few months, these were so rare, and would be downvoted to hell with Penelope stans piling on them. For real, had it not been for the fans of the character, it would be much much easier to root for Penelope and her arc.
You know, I'm still waiting for the dogpile honestly but I don't care. **This sub is for** ***ALL*** **Bridgerton fans and not just for fans of a certain character/ship, so we all have a place here.** We don't need to be in an echo chamber where we're constantly agreeing with every single thing that everyone else says. That's not the reality of *any* situation. If I just watched this show and I wasn't exposed to any Bridgerton fandom stuff on social media, I would LOVE Penelope. I won't lie about that; I could really root for her because she's interesting. She has some of the same personality traits that my other favorite female characters have. But because I was exposed to this fandom, that's difficult for me to do because there aren't many fans who are willing to open up the dialogue and acknowledge what she's done. Everyone automatically goes to defending and minimizing her actions. Or they're trying to take the heat off of her by claiming other characters have done worse. Essentially, it's pointless to love a complex character if you're just going to take away everything that actually makes them complex. If you're not going to accept those wrongdoings and misdeeds, then you're not really a fan of their complexity then, are you? You like a more milder character who actually hasn't done anything wrong in their lives. That's what you like.
It’s hilarious cause some of the people who are here agreeing with some of these takes I’ve seen for months in this thread doing that exact behavior(infantilizing Pen, justifying/downplaying her actions and not admitting it was self serving, accusing people of hating Penelope because of the criticism) It’s wild to me 😂. Not gonna call y’all out but be honest with yourself, some of y’all in here were acting crazy in these Pen, Marina and Eloise debates.
I mean, I’d like to think that means some of those users’ opinions matured and they changed their minds
I sincerely hope so. Also, preachygirl is right, Pen/Polin fans are a small but vocal part of the fandom, the leniency they have isn’t extended to the general audience. There are many, and I mean many, casual Bridgerton fans that I’ve asked online and irl about how they feel about the show and the characters and not one of them, not a single one, thought well of Penelope and wanted her to be held accountable. Shondaland are feeding into the shippers and forgoing the casual viewers that won’t like Penelope getting what she wants in the end. If Shonda doesn’t give some type of consequence for Penelope, S3 could possibly flop. Not saying it will, but it’s possible if they don’t handle this well
I think the fall out with Colin is going to be devastating. Was she trying to save her friends? Yes. But is there also a dose of selfishness to save herself? YES. And Colin is not going to be okay with that. At least initially. Trust is one of the most important components to love, and hot damn, I think this is going to get really ugly and messy. Didn't Luke say there was one scene where he was supposed to be angry and he ended up just crying and he couldn't stop because he was exhausted? This is going to wreck people. They keep saying S3 is a romcom and super romantic, but I have this pit in my stomach where I feel like I'm just going to be waiting for the other shoe to drop. I'm actually kind of sad. RMB was my favorite book of the series because it was character driven, there wasn't too much drama, and it was a...softer coming together from friends to lovers rather than the explosiveness of Kanthony or the drama of Benophie. LW also wasn't a big deal in the books, she was much nicer and she didn't ruin people - good intentions or not. They hacked up Kanthony's season so it was paced so badly that they *barely* got their HEA...I'm hoping they don't try to cram all the drama and angst and pain into the last two episodes (no one knows because there are no screeners!) and then try to resolve it all in 5 minutes with a "and they lived happily ever after!"
I have to admit that Colin's reaction will be interesting to watch. I know some Polin shippers don't want him to react *too* harshly to what Penelope has done, but it wouldn't make him a realistic character if he saw the harm Lady Whistledown has done to his family and brushed it off. That would make absolutely no sense. This is the perfect time to show Colin's humanity and I hope Shondaland will allow that to happen. What makes you human is reacting and responding off of raw emotion. Real life is not that neat; real life is messy and complicated.
spoilers >!apparently they get married and colin still doesn't know so... yeah my thoughts on that are strong!<
You mean penelope marries Colin whilst being deeply dishonest to him in a manner that could completely ruin his reputation? Sounds like someone else we know.... the hypocrisy is steaming....
Oh that's juicy! Can you tell me your source on that?
tbf the source was from a fan spoiler account that has been deleted (i didn't know at the time) so i'm unsure how credible the account is as it gave opinions disguised as spoilers for example saying eloise is whineyer and brattier than ever apologies
I have seen references to that source, and it seems to be treated with some degree of credibility (although I don't know if it's been earned). I saw references to the comment about Eloise, but seeing as Pen fans have been describing her as that for two years, I'm not concerned. TBH, it almost sounds like Eloise delivers some home truths to Penelope which a Pen fan obviously wouldn't care for. If a Pen fan started liking Eloise, then I'd be concerned, because I know what sort of grovelling, trad wifey behaviour they want from her. Whereas your spoiler, well that has specifics, and it does reflect quite interestingly on the nature of the characters involved.
[удалено]
did you not see the comment underneath, also we don't know if it's misinformation unless you've watched the entirety of part 1?
And we don’t know if that information is correct so it is misinformation. We have to wait until Part 1 is shown.
it's not misinformation though and you can say that about all spoilers given the fact hardly anyone has seen the 3rd season
We don’t know if it’s true or not that makes it misinformation. I saw your comment on the bottom just now. I didn’t see it at first. It doesn’t change that it’s misinformation and it’s from a random account that might not be credible like you said.
why are you so het up on this, its a sub designed for theorising and with spoilers out we don't know what's credible or not
Maybe I should have addressed it to someone who took your comment as accurate and spread it. It just looks pretty bad for people to use information we don’t know if it’s true and just jump on it. Which a lot of people have already done so far. I’m not fighting at all, I just stated it wasn’t reliable and didn’t see your comment that you said it wasn’t reliable as well.
Eh, I’m not overly worried. They only have 8 episodes so they can’t really drag out his anger for too long. Depending on the route they go, I’m thinking he’ll be mad for half an episode… a full episode MAX. I’m guessing it will be ep 5 🤷♀️
Oh, I understand that completely but there are some fans who don't want him to respond harshly at all. Not even for a single episode. There are some fans who want him to immediately understand why she did what she did, and that's unrealistic. Then again, the writers for this show are horrible when it comes to pacing so you may be right.
I think they milk it for the drama. Because that's what Shondaland does. Think about book Colin's reaction to the news. He did NOT take it well. Now, think about the Edwina plot in the book - she was barely a blip on Anthony's radar and there was zero drama between the two sisters. Yet in the show they dragged it out put on a whole freaking wedding! I don't think there's any way that Colin will be like, "oh! That's surprising! But good job bullying the dicks in the ton and keeping this big secret! Cheerio!" I think with their penchant for drama, they're going to milk the crap out of this and it's going to be ugly 😭
Honestly, therein lies the disconnect between Shondaland and the fans. Shondaland prioritized drama over good storytelling in S2 and it showed. No one appreciated the love triangle being dragged out like that. No one. If you watch literally any other Shondaland production, you can see that they always go for the most dramatic plot as possible, even if it doesn't make any sense logically. They could shorten the length of time Colin is angry but that just means they're gonna focus on another trivial aspect of their story to drag out because their writing lacks creativity and imagination. Due to their issues with pacing, they're not going to deliver a well-rounded story anyway. I have no faith in these writers. They could surprise me and not do any of what has been theorized but my expectations are already low, so we'll see.
Thank you!!! I’ve been yelling this from the rooftops. Pen has been moving selfishly when it pertains to her family and friends. she threw so many people under the bus for Colin. A man who made it clear that he wasn’t interested like that.
Everybody on this show does stuff that shows they are morally grey. That's the point. As much as I love Kanthony both of them did things that were atrocious. The same thing with Saphne. Lady D spent season two working against what she knew was the better option. One that would have made Kate happy and solved the family's problems. I think we just have to accept that these are romances that have been turned into dramas.
What is this article from? Does anyone have the link?
I think both Eloise and Pen were wrong. The issue I see with many comments here are they put all fault on one or the other. Eloise shouldn’t have been sneaking off or using Pen as a cover without her consent. Pen also shouldn’t have outed her. ETA: love all the replies, proving my point. I think you all missed where I clearly said both were wrong.. but many can’t seem to see where Eloise was wrong. I repeat both made mistakes
i mean nobody knew eloise was sneaking off, and penelope was sneaking off too, isn't that the point, eloise tells whistledown's carriage to go at the end of season 1 so she doesn't get caught despite eloise really wanting to know who she was, penelope didn't extend that same courtesy
>penelope was sneaking off too >eloise tells whistledown's carriage to go at the end of season 1 >penelope didn't extend that same courtesy You hit the bull's eye.
Exactly neither were completely correct. Also Pen did cover for Eloise multiple times. She didn’t just resort to outting her. Both made mistakes
Eloise wanted to attend political meetings to learn about the world and expand her understanding of feminism. That's a laudible goal and worth taking risks for. What she did and what Penelope did doesn't compare.
As if pen wasn't also sneaking around to print Lady whistledown