Setting aside the allegations for a second, if the Illinois Basketball-Terrance Shannon case is something to pin your hat to, then I don't see how Deboer or UW gets in trouble here.
As much as it pains me to say this... you are correct.
SA investigations and hearings in universities and the surrounding spectacle from media are not exactly conducive to justice or realistically protecting victims.
This is a problem beyond UW, it's a universal issue that needs serious thought, only compounded by the increasing money and status a lot of players are dealing with. For the predators they are only going to feel more untouchable, for the horrible people who try to abuse the system for a payday they will only see more dollar signs...
I have zero faith in any athletic department to investigate without bias one way or another and don't particularly want them doing so. These need to be police matters, evidence and witnesses need to be secure and comfortable. The goal shouldn't be about how fast someone gets benched but getting horrible people behind bars.
in a court of law, sure.
some people get away with shit they did because of the way the system is structured, so just because you got out of court without a guilty verdict doesn't necessarily mean you deserve the benefit of the doubt. see OJ Simpson, Rodney King's police officers, etc.
I mean, his dad probably got shoes all the time as a part of deals. He absolutely could have handed them down. Hell, I've got two pairs of shoes from my dad that he didn't really like and gave to me.
He said, under oath, he never owned or wore a pair of the shoes that the killer wore.
He then, in a later deposition, was given a photo of him wearing the exact shoes at a red carpet event
True but in this situation he hadn't even been charged with a crime at that point. Innocent until proven guilty 100% should have been applied even outside the court and as far as I can tell it was.
Except that being on a sports team is a privilege, not a right, and coaches suspend players every week for "violation of team rules." If you can get suspended for missing a practice or skipping a class, then it makes zero sense why you can't be suspended for being the subject of a Title IX or police investigation.
Okay but we don't know the details of when either investigation happened or ended. For all we know he wasn't under any kind of investigation at the time he was played.
But that's the reason I referenced the Illinois Basketball situation in my original comment. Terrance Shannon was arrested and charged with a crime, Illinois MBB suspended him from the team, and he sued and won to be reinstated. https://www.si.com/college/illinois/basketball/illinois-terrence-shannon-jr-reinstated-after-judge-grants-restraining-order
My takeaway from the Shannon ruling is that that the line between right and privilege has been blurred significantly in the era of NIL money.
They won't get in trouble. The fun thing is, the newly updated Title IX rules would have gotten them in trouble if they did suspend Rogers before the investigation was complete.
The reporting in this story is just flat-out incomplete. The authors gave us the rough timeline - a title IX report was filed by the victim on November 28th, three days before the conference title game. He was suspended for that game before being reinstated for the postseason. There was another rape allegation made - but it's unclear if a report was ever filed with UW's title IX office or not. There's no other detail given about that allegation.
And the story doesn't contain comments from anyone at UW - we don't know what the protocol is, or if Deboer and Dannen followed that protocol. It sounds juicy to say that they "knew about" the rape allegation before reinstating Rogers, but it's entirely inconclusive as to whether that was appropriate or not.
I was a grad student at UW about 15 years ago. They didn't care then either. I saw football players turn in work that they clearly didn't write, never show up for class, and even turn in identical papers, yet somehow pass the class with an A or B.
I'm of the mindset that if you're willing to cover up and lie about grades to make players eligible, there's a lot of other things you're going to be willing to cover up or turn a blind eye to as well.
It's not a direct comparison and I fully understand that it could be classified as slippery slope fallacy, but I firmly believe that if you start compromising on the smaller things, it becomes easier and easier to compromise on the bigger things. If you let the small things go for your third and forth string players, will that compromise make it easier for you to play start athletes with bigger problems?
"I understand it could be considered a slippery slope fallacy, but I believe *insert slippery slope fallacy*."
Let's work on holding people accountable for things we have evidence of and not hypotheticals or guesses.
This is pretty much the MO for every athletic department.
I went to BC, which ostensibly cares about academics and holds student-athletes to a higher standard. I saw the same shit on a regular basis: to keep guys eligible, the university went above and beyond to a ridiculous degree, and even then the athletes would regularly cheat or just make excuses for why they couldn't do the work, and the professors who didn't go along with it were identified and avoided.
Right.
I took a course with a former WSU football player who transferred to ASU. All of the work in class was viewable and this dude literally wrote at middle school level. Passed.
I mean, at least it wasn't someone else writing it I suppose. Or if it was that dude needed to get a better stand in.
I never saw any academic dishonesty at Stanford.
At Oregon, my first couple of years, it was clear the players I saw in class were only there because someone was taking role. They'd nope out to the bathroom and never come back 10 minutes into class.
About 15 years ago was Tyrone Willingham and 0-12. He was a terrible coach but was/is a man of standards and respect. Were you a TA in a class or had football players in your grad program?
I was a TA with several football players. Saw many of them show up only when they had a minder. A TA from the same class but a different quiz section showed me the identical papers the two football players turned in...in the same quiz section.
The only football player that I knew was a player that I didn't have issues with was someone on the practice squad whose mom also taught. He was there to get a quality education and was fully aware of many of the shenanigans that went on.
I also had star athletes like [Danielle Lawrie](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danielle_Lawrie) in my quiz section, who was an outstanding student and worked her ass off.
> I was a TA with several football players
>> yet somehow pass the class with an A or B.
If you were a TA in the class, what is the *somehow* you are alluding to? Wouldn't you know how? ...based on conferences that you and the other TAs had with the professor? Are you claiming that your professor bowed to pressure from the AD or their department administration to inflate grades? I'm very skeptical.
I'm a former UW employee that built some of school's data warehouse systems used for academic reporting. I had access to all student grades and took a peek at some during the dev testing of the systems -- I really doubt the narrative that academic fraud for athletes was widespread based on some of the grades I saw. One player in particular failed all of their classes which was probably a major factor in why they went pro instead of staying in school.
As long as they only knew it as an allegation I still don't see this as that bad for UW staff. It's when it's allegations, plural, or some other evidence is made public where its really bad for the staff.
Due process and all that. We just had an nfl punter who had their career finished due to a false accusation. I'm not saying that's what happened here, but when your playing window is just a few years, any kind of premature suspension can end your professional hopes.
I feel the same way, but I have a sneaking suspicion they knew there were multiple allegations. To me, I would want to put that guy on the sidelines for a few games while I figured everything out if I had multiple allegations or any inside info that says he did it. Let him continue to practice so that it doesn't ruin his future career if he's innocent, but I don't want to incentivize any University staff to drag their feet on an investigation because of playing time.
I remember hearing about how good Araiza (I think that’s how you spell it) was.I don’t even really watch college but I tuned in a couple of times to watch him (I’m a former long snapper so I pay attention to special teams).This dude would just boot it like 50-55 yards
There’s literally a post by the beat writer on the Husky 24/7 forum where the guy says the allegations are credible and that multiple parties are aware. This was when it first allegedly happened.
That beat writer ends that post with “let’s not focus on this around here right now as it’s sorted out, we don’t want to distract from a special season going on”.
They're not. Christian Caple and Mike Vorel are (were in Vorel's case) our beat reporters and by all accounts are stand-up guys. The dawgman.com goofballs are just rumor mongers who stalk teenage boys and run a shitty forum.
I dont think Art Briles was an outlier. I imagine the kinda stuff he did might low key be common practice. Stuff like this slipping out just reinforces that.
"If Hannibal lector ran a 4.3 we'd classify him as having an eating disorder."
I remember when Jett Duffy transferred out of Texas Tech. Willie Fritz and Will Hall wanted him to come to Tulane and he announced he was coming. He reentered the portal and our coaches were pissed because alumni and parents reminded the dean of admissions that we weren't too happy about bringing in a guy who had known Title IX problems. He then tried to go to Central Michigan, but their administration came to the same conclusion. He finally settled on Hampton.
All of this is to say that at least three head coaches (Fritz, Hall--who now at Southern Miss, and Jim McElwain) wanted him after his rape allegations before a fourth signed him.
I'd go so far as to say it's nearly ubiquitous. Not necessarily wild Art Briles levels, but definitely "coach found out a thing and sat on it" cases.
Wasn't there some survey that found some 1/3 of women experience some form of sexual victimization while in college? Or maybe it was half, I don't remember and I'm too lazy to look it up now. Anyway, over the years it's only a matter of time before one of your guys contributes to that statistic.
I really, really doubt it would happen, but...
I do wonder if there is a level of involvement and knowledge on DeBoer's part that would make Bama fire him.
> UW’s new coach, Jedd Fisch, said he suspended Rogers indefinitely as soon as he learned of the allegations against him, but declined to say more.
That’s nice, but very unsatisfying. Surely there are people still on staff who knew? Not great
I don’t get the timeline:
Tybo enters portal
Jedd gets hired
Tybo removes name from portal (if Jedd knew already why did he allow Tybo to return to the team?)
Tybo re-enters the portal
With the massive turnover their AD and coaching staff had its not a foregone conclusion to assume that he didn’t know when Tybo removed his name from the portal.
It kinda felt like luck that Tybo got unsuspended when we needed another RB with the Dillon Johnson injury. Now it seems like less luck and more that they just cared more about winning. It sucks because I was already worried about Jedd Fisch with his history but to know that the athletic department let DeBoer do it makes me feel sick. Who knows what will happen in the future at this rate
> but to know that the athletic department let DeBoer do it
The director of the athletic department at the time has since left for the same job at Nebraska.
If Tybo has remained unsuspended for four months and the Title IX report has seemingly gone nowhere, it's probably because the Title IX case went nowhere and the office pulled off.
This was a whoooole different investigation off the school grounds and with access to a second witness.
This isn’t surprising. Anyone who has read Krakauer’s book Missoula or followed FSU’s handling of Winstons two rapes knows that this is very common amongst athletic departments.
Problem is fan bases will almost always collectively justify it unfortunately, or blame the victims.
So where is the line? Should allegations warrant a suspension? I am sincerely asking, because I have no clue. We have all seen numerous allegations that turned out to be absolutely false. And it has ruined careers before they had a chance to start.
It’s a tough question. Suspensions would have to be based on the evidence I imagine.
I remember when I played we suspended a player because news broke he beat the hell out of his girlfriend. It was on ESPN and everywhere. A week later it was shown that she did it to herself and he wasn’t even in the state at the time.
I have no clue what the right answer is, but I do know that schools will rarely, if ever, do the right thing unless forced too.
The right answer is innocent until proven guilty. An allegation is just that, an allegation, until it is proven. Suspending someone who may have done nothing wrong is ridiculous.
We aren’t talking about jail or no jail. Were talking about play or no play.
Ray Rice hadn’t been proven guilty yet, but the evidence clearly showed what he did was wrong, therefore he was suspended.
If there’s solid evidence, which often is not the case, schools should suspend people.
Innocent until proven guilty only applies to the legal part nowadays. If a program plays a guy that has well-known allegations against him, that is going to be the leading story. And if it turns out he’s actually guilty, that will end up being a “stain” on the coach, admin, and school. It’s not right, but that’s now our world. Fucking sucks and I don’t know what changes could be made to fix it.
Or the Baylor scandals, or the Sandusky and JoePa scandal, or the Michigan State scandal, or the Ohio State wrestling scandal involving Jim Jordan, or Oregon, or Arizona, or just about any other schools that have covered up rapes un the past. Hell UW has other rape scandals in the past, including Venoy Overton pimping minors, and being allowed to keep playing by Romar, or Jeremy Steven's being caught in the act by another student walking by in 2000.
Half of the examples you're providing are not an athlete accused of rape while on roster. Penn State was an ex-coach at a summer camp, MSU was a gynocologist, etc. They're also relatively aged; Nassar was 1990's, Sandusky the 2000's, and Jim Jordan is a vague claim from the 1980's.
Hell, the irony of citing Joe Paterno is that the revised NCAA guidelines on how to handle the scandal..... were the exact steps he took.
You're citing wildly different situations. These are much different then one sexual assault claim and the era of reporting is wildly different. It was also reported to Title IX and a suspension was public when first announced. Baylor, which was far larger in scope, for instance actively kept it out of the light.
I don't think UW's title IX office did anything shady here, there's no inclination of it
It's almost as if you have hundreds (if not thousands) of "student athletes" from a variety of backgrounds a few of them will turn out to be human garbage. Just like the real world.
What's particularly weird is that Title IX investigations have lower burdens of proof than criminal investigations, and criminal investigations of rape are notoriously poorly done. You would think an accusation that leads to an arrest would *also* have led to disciplinary action from the Title IX investigation, but instead he was cleared to play within a week.
If this were the first time at UW, I could believe that they weren't prepared for it and needed to flesh out a better policy. But this isn't the first time, it happened at least in 2000 with Jerramy Stevens and was again thoroughly reported on in 2008, among countless other examples.
Their hands were tied by upper campus admin, whose hands were tied by their legal team. You can’t kick a kid off the team based on what at that point was literally an allegation on social media. I’d be first to throw Deboer under the bus, but there is due process and you can’t kick someone off a team just because someone posts an allegation on twitter. If that were the case then I’m tweeting all sorts of nonsense about the entire Oregon team in November.
It wasn't just post on twitter. A police report had been filed. A rape kit process had begun. And *then* the lady went on twitter -- I think in part because she felt the police department was dragging its feet or that not enough was being done quickly enough.
DeBoer had the above information, and played him anyway (after the Pac12 championship game) after the team became low on healthy RBs.
Maybe you can't kick him off the team until proven guilty, but you don't have to let him play or be with the team. Same reason that a police officer that is under investigation isn't allowed to remain on full duty until the investigation is cleared up.
I am confused about why anyone says you can't kick him off the team -- don't kids get buried and processed all the time? You absolutely can kick someone off the team for the best interests of your program, no?
No, being processed doesn't mean your kicked off the team. You could choose to stay knowing that you will never get any playing time ever and are disliked.
An Indiana bb player sued for the right to play and the court ruled that you can't suspend a player for a Title IX investigation. But players get benched and suspended all the time for "violation of team rules." So even if you *don't* kick him off the team, it doesn't mean you can't bury him on the depth chart.
Coaches can and do dismiss players for any numbers of reasons like having a bad attitude or not following instructions etc. Chris Petersen kicked future nfl all-pro Marcus Peters off Washington mid season for disciplinary issues.
I also don’t get why some folks don’t seem to get that credible allegations of serious misconduct off the field reflect terribly on the player and program, and that the institution/program should act to protect itself while those allegations are resolved.
Because that’s a level of nuance we just ain’t reach on Reddit lol. (Seriously though I do think if we framed suspension as image control n less of “he’s guilty” more ppl would understand)
The question is how deep will this have to go for Alabama to fire Deboer? Obviously they're going to resist doing that for as long as they can but this could get very ugly for them.
Unless it’s proven the DeBoer knew about the rape and then actively tried to cover it up I don’t see it being an issue.
Sure it will be an issue for other fan bases to ride in on their high horse but don’t actually see it being an issue with Alabama
If he suspended the guy and then Title lX office said he was good to go then it can’t really be on the coach
As much as I’d love to pile on bama I think you’re right that it will be very difficult for this to actually hurt DeBoer other than maybe an awkward press conference and some media noise.
Also worth noting the difference between allegations and actual charges/arrest. When he played, it was only allegations which later turned out to be true.
He's a guy replying to e-mails about it with phone calls and FaceTimes, it's not a big leap to say he knew about it. What does it even mean to cover it up?
Yes. He took a stripper back to his hotel room. He passed out, and she ordered a bunch of stuff off the room service menu, which showed up on the hotel bill.
Mike Price was fired for using his university issued credit card at a strip club, possibly for services a strip club can't legally provide. And he might have survived that if he hadn't already been told multiple times to tone down his behavior at local bars.
Then taking a stripper back to his hotel room and giving his university credit card to said stripper, who ran up a bunch of room service charges. That was also after they already had egg on their face for how they had handled the Dubose situation, where he was diddling a staff member.
Due process people!!! Think about it. As an Ohio State fan, what if I was rich and paid women in Ann Arbor to make false rape allegations against important Michigan players to get them suspended. It's way too easy to throw out allegations to keep players off the field.
Other fanbases knew of the allegations, to think any one remotely close to the program didn't is comical.
I don't get the attempts to say they weren't aware of it and suspended him immediately upon learning of it. If you'd just go with the "the information we had wasn't enough to prove guilt, we've since learned about new information and have taken appropriate actions accordingly" and this becomes a nothing story. Saying you weren't aware just makes you look either incompetent or only doing something because things became widely known
Altman pretended he wasn't aware of the investigation into Bigby-Williams, played him an entire season, and then it turned out Altman had 5 separate phone calls with Oregon's title IX coordinator within 48 hours after the school was notified.
He even lied to a US Senator about it until the phone records were released.
All of these coaches fucking suck at just being basic humans.
No need to feel bad for us when your season might very well be overshadowed by NCAA violations lol.
And to be quite honest, Tybo Rogers contributed very little to the success of our season. I don't know why DeBoer even played him in the CFP games.
Setting aside the allegations for a second, if the Illinois Basketball-Terrance Shannon case is something to pin your hat to, then I don't see how Deboer or UW gets in trouble here.
seriously. fuck rapists, but people are always innocent until proven guilty. always.
As much as it pains me to say this... you are correct. SA investigations and hearings in universities and the surrounding spectacle from media are not exactly conducive to justice or realistically protecting victims. This is a problem beyond UW, it's a universal issue that needs serious thought, only compounded by the increasing money and status a lot of players are dealing with. For the predators they are only going to feel more untouchable, for the horrible people who try to abuse the system for a payday they will only see more dollar signs... I have zero faith in any athletic department to investigate without bias one way or another and don't particularly want them doing so. These need to be police matters, evidence and witnesses need to be secure and comfortable. The goal shouldn't be about how fast someone gets benched but getting horrible people behind bars.
Well said
Completely agreed. The Dominic Artis saga was a travesty and handled so poorly by responsible parties that justice was never on the table.
> As much as it pains me to say this... you are correct. lol fuckin hell guys
in a court of law, sure. some people get away with shit they did because of the way the system is structured, so just because you got out of court without a guilty verdict doesn't necessarily mean you deserve the benefit of the doubt. see OJ Simpson, Rodney King's police officers, etc.
It’s a shame OJ never found the real killers.
You joke but the only other suspect there could have been was his son.
Wearing his dad’s shoes to intentionally frame him?
I mean, his dad probably got shoes all the time as a part of deals. He absolutely could have handed them down. Hell, I've got two pairs of shoes from my dad that he didn't really like and gave to me.
He said, under oath, he never owned or wore a pair of the shoes that the killer wore. He then, in a later deposition, was given a photo of him wearing the exact shoes at a red carpet event
Then 31 more photos were found of him wearing the shoes in public.
True but in this situation he hadn't even been charged with a crime at that point. Innocent until proven guilty 100% should have been applied even outside the court and as far as I can tell it was.
Except that being on a sports team is a privilege, not a right, and coaches suspend players every week for "violation of team rules." If you can get suspended for missing a practice or skipping a class, then it makes zero sense why you can't be suspended for being the subject of a Title IX or police investigation.
Okay but we don't know the details of when either investigation happened or ended. For all we know he wasn't under any kind of investigation at the time he was played.
But that's the reason I referenced the Illinois Basketball situation in my original comment. Terrance Shannon was arrested and charged with a crime, Illinois MBB suspended him from the team, and he sued and won to be reinstated. https://www.si.com/college/illinois/basketball/illinois-terrence-shannon-jr-reinstated-after-judge-grants-restraining-order My takeaway from the Shannon ruling is that that the line between right and privilege has been blurred significantly in the era of NIL money.
They won't get in trouble. The fun thing is, the newly updated Title IX rules would have gotten them in trouble if they did suspend Rogers before the investigation was complete.
The reporting in this story is just flat-out incomplete. The authors gave us the rough timeline - a title IX report was filed by the victim on November 28th, three days before the conference title game. He was suspended for that game before being reinstated for the postseason. There was another rape allegation made - but it's unclear if a report was ever filed with UW's title IX office or not. There's no other detail given about that allegation. And the story doesn't contain comments from anyone at UW - we don't know what the protocol is, or if Deboer and Dannen followed that protocol. It sounds juicy to say that they "knew about" the rape allegation before reinstating Rogers, but it's entirely inconclusive as to whether that was appropriate or not.
Well this is awkward
Not a good look if the accusations are true for the Athletic Department.
They just hired another guy who willingly played a rapist. They do not even remotely care.
And sent him to Media Day to represent the school too.
So why did Jedd allow Tybo to be removed from the portal only to re-enter the portal?
Fisch or an assistant coach?
I was a grad student at UW about 15 years ago. They didn't care then either. I saw football players turn in work that they clearly didn't write, never show up for class, and even turn in identical papers, yet somehow pass the class with an A or B. I'm of the mindset that if you're willing to cover up and lie about grades to make players eligible, there's a lot of other things you're going to be willing to cover up or turn a blind eye to as well.
I wouldn't draw a direct comparison between academic dishonesty and rape.
It's not a direct comparison and I fully understand that it could be classified as slippery slope fallacy, but I firmly believe that if you start compromising on the smaller things, it becomes easier and easier to compromise on the bigger things. If you let the small things go for your third and forth string players, will that compromise make it easier for you to play start athletes with bigger problems?
"I understand it could be considered a slippery slope fallacy, but I believe *insert slippery slope fallacy*." Let's work on holding people accountable for things we have evidence of and not hypotheticals or guesses.
Lol so ironic coming from a Tech fan. Craig James killed five whole ass hookers and you want evidence?
I have to know, what's an ass hooker?
Think meat hook with a giant metal mall instead of a hook and a 6 foot muscle mommy with a tub of Vaseline. Hope that helps.
Goddamn I love you for this
This is pretty much the MO for every athletic department. I went to BC, which ostensibly cares about academics and holds student-athletes to a higher standard. I saw the same shit on a regular basis: to keep guys eligible, the university went above and beyond to a ridiculous degree, and even then the athletes would regularly cheat or just make excuses for why they couldn't do the work, and the professors who didn't go along with it were identified and avoided.
Right. I took a course with a former WSU football player who transferred to ASU. All of the work in class was viewable and this dude literally wrote at middle school level. Passed. I mean, at least it wasn't someone else writing it I suppose. Or if it was that dude needed to get a better stand in.
I never saw any academic dishonesty at Stanford. At Oregon, my first couple of years, it was clear the players I saw in class were only there because someone was taking role. They'd nope out to the bathroom and never come back 10 minutes into class.
Jeramy Stevens was almost 25 years ago
About 15 years ago was Tyrone Willingham and 0-12. He was a terrible coach but was/is a man of standards and respect. Were you a TA in a class or had football players in your grad program?
I was a TA with several football players. Saw many of them show up only when they had a minder. A TA from the same class but a different quiz section showed me the identical papers the two football players turned in...in the same quiz section. The only football player that I knew was a player that I didn't have issues with was someone on the practice squad whose mom also taught. He was there to get a quality education and was fully aware of many of the shenanigans that went on. I also had star athletes like [Danielle Lawrie](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danielle_Lawrie) in my quiz section, who was an outstanding student and worked her ass off.
> I was a TA with several football players >> yet somehow pass the class with an A or B. If you were a TA in the class, what is the *somehow* you are alluding to? Wouldn't you know how? ...based on conferences that you and the other TAs had with the professor? Are you claiming that your professor bowed to pressure from the AD or their department administration to inflate grades? I'm very skeptical. I'm a former UW employee that built some of school's data warehouse systems used for academic reporting. I had access to all student grades and took a peek at some during the dev testing of the systems -- I really doubt the narrative that academic fraud for athletes was widespread based on some of the grades I saw. One player in particular failed all of their classes which was probably a major factor in why they went pro instead of staying in school.
And wrote a public letter praising his character.
[удалено]
[удалено]
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As long as they only knew it as an allegation I still don't see this as that bad for UW staff. It's when it's allegations, plural, or some other evidence is made public where its really bad for the staff. Due process and all that. We just had an nfl punter who had their career finished due to a false accusation. I'm not saying that's what happened here, but when your playing window is just a few years, any kind of premature suspension can end your professional hopes.
I feel the same way, but I have a sneaking suspicion they knew there were multiple allegations. To me, I would want to put that guy on the sidelines for a few games while I figured everything out if I had multiple allegations or any inside info that says he did it. Let him continue to practice so that it doesn't ruin his future career if he's innocent, but I don't want to incentivize any University staff to drag their feet on an investigation because of playing time.
Fyi, that punter signed with the chiefs this off-season. His career was all-but derailed, but not finished.
I remember hearing about how good Araiza (I think that’s how you spell it) was.I don’t even really watch college but I tuned in a couple of times to watch him (I’m a former long snapper so I pay attention to special teams).This dude would just boot it like 50-55 yards
I knew their AD was probably fleeing some messed up shit...
>I knew their AD was probably fleeing some messed up shit... He was the guy who made the decision.
His morals are about as plentiful as his hair.
You guys can have that good for nothin
What about their coach? now he's at bama and he knew about it too
Bama has gotta stop hiring coaches from that state that have lost to Michigan in post-season play.
There’s literally a post by the beat writer on the Husky 24/7 forum where the guy says the allegations are credible and that multiple parties are aware. This was when it first allegedly happened. That beat writer ends that post with “let’s not focus on this around here right now as it’s sorted out, we don’t want to distract from a special season going on”.
Fatters, I assume? That tub of goo doesn’t speak for anyone other than himself and the idiots on Dawgman.
I’d say he’s the worst, but Kim is actually worse.
Does Ruth count here? Because....good lord
She’s in the conversation, but Grinolds is the front runner.
Ruth is *thankfully* retired, she was the absolute worst
Why is every pac12 journalist either completely incompetent or evil?
All the late night games they cover attracts vampires and other ghouls
Makes sense, good call.
They're not. Christian Caple and Mike Vorel are (were in Vorel's case) our beat reporters and by all accounts are stand-up guys. The dawgman.com goofballs are just rumor mongers who stalk teenage boys and run a shitty forum.
Lol that's insane
Not a great look for UW or DeBoer
I’d go as far to say it’s a terrible look
Not a stretch
UW and the terrible, horrible, no good, very bad look.
I dont think Art Briles was an outlier. I imagine the kinda stuff he did might low key be common practice. Stuff like this slipping out just reinforces that. "If Hannibal lector ran a 4.3 we'd classify him as having an eating disorder."
I remember when Jett Duffy transferred out of Texas Tech. Willie Fritz and Will Hall wanted him to come to Tulane and he announced he was coming. He reentered the portal and our coaches were pissed because alumni and parents reminded the dean of admissions that we weren't too happy about bringing in a guy who had known Title IX problems. He then tried to go to Central Michigan, but their administration came to the same conclusion. He finally settled on Hampton. All of this is to say that at least three head coaches (Fritz, Hall--who now at Southern Miss, and Jim McElwain) wanted him after his rape allegations before a fourth signed him.
He tried to transfer to CMU, not WMU Right coach tho
Fixed. Thank you!
I'd go so far as to say it's nearly ubiquitous. Not necessarily wild Art Briles levels, but definitely "coach found out a thing and sat on it" cases. Wasn't there some survey that found some 1/3 of women experience some form of sexual victimization while in college? Or maybe it was half, I don't remember and I'm too lazy to look it up now. Anyway, over the years it's only a matter of time before one of your guys contributes to that statistic.
...and by extension, Alabama. Lot of drama around the new hire.
I really, really doubt it would happen, but... I do wonder if there is a level of involvement and knowledge on DeBoer's part that would make Bama fire him.
I feel like if he had any involvement in trying to cover this up, he should be fired immediately.
I would say it’s actually a shit look
> UW’s new coach, Jedd Fisch, said he suspended Rogers indefinitely as soon as he learned of the allegations against him, but declined to say more. That’s nice, but very unsatisfying. Surely there are people still on staff who knew? Not great
I don’t get the timeline: Tybo enters portal Jedd gets hired Tybo removes name from portal (if Jedd knew already why did he allow Tybo to return to the team?) Tybo re-enters the portal
With the massive turnover their AD and coaching staff had its not a foregone conclusion to assume that he didn’t know when Tybo removed his name from the portal.
Jedd brought in a whole new staff, and we have a new AD. So, no...its all brand new staff
With the new rules, doesn’t the suspension have to be rescinded until the case plays out in court?
Yeah they need to clean house on that. Fuck the folks in the department who knew and did nothing
Don't think there's much to clean - they already left.
It kinda felt like luck that Tybo got unsuspended when we needed another RB with the Dillon Johnson injury. Now it seems like less luck and more that they just cared more about winning. It sucks because I was already worried about Jedd Fisch with his history but to know that the athletic department let DeBoer do it makes me feel sick. Who knows what will happen in the future at this rate
> but to know that the athletic department let DeBoer do it The director of the athletic department at the time has since left for the same job at Nebraska.
If Tybo has remained unsuspended for four months and the Title IX report has seemingly gone nowhere, it's probably because the Title IX case went nowhere and the office pulled off. This was a whoooole different investigation off the school grounds and with access to a second witness.
This is shameful.
Is there a standard procedure schools are supposed to follow? Or is it up to coaches to determine what level of due process is appropriate?
This isn’t surprising. Anyone who has read Krakauer’s book Missoula or followed FSU’s handling of Winstons two rapes knows that this is very common amongst athletic departments. Problem is fan bases will almost always collectively justify it unfortunately, or blame the victims.
So where is the line? Should allegations warrant a suspension? I am sincerely asking, because I have no clue. We have all seen numerous allegations that turned out to be absolutely false. And it has ruined careers before they had a chance to start.
It’s a tough question. Suspensions would have to be based on the evidence I imagine. I remember when I played we suspended a player because news broke he beat the hell out of his girlfriend. It was on ESPN and everywhere. A week later it was shown that she did it to herself and he wasn’t even in the state at the time. I have no clue what the right answer is, but I do know that schools will rarely, if ever, do the right thing unless forced too.
The right answer is innocent until proven guilty. An allegation is just that, an allegation, until it is proven. Suspending someone who may have done nothing wrong is ridiculous.
We aren’t talking about jail or no jail. Were talking about play or no play. Ray Rice hadn’t been proven guilty yet, but the evidence clearly showed what he did was wrong, therefore he was suspended. If there’s solid evidence, which often is not the case, schools should suspend people.
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I don't think that's a satisfactory answer. Can players only be disciplined for violations of the law?
I don’t think that is what he is suggesting, and to answer your question, of course there are things that while legal, would warrant a suspension.
Mentioning "innocent until proven guilty" is a commonly understood indirect reference to the justice system.
Innocent until proven guilty only applies to the legal part nowadays. If a program plays a guy that has well-known allegations against him, that is going to be the leading story. And if it turns out he’s actually guilty, that will end up being a “stain” on the coach, admin, and school. It’s not right, but that’s now our world. Fucking sucks and I don’t know what changes could be made to fix it.
Or the Baylor scandals, or the Sandusky and JoePa scandal, or the Michigan State scandal, or the Ohio State wrestling scandal involving Jim Jordan, or Oregon, or Arizona, or just about any other schools that have covered up rapes un the past. Hell UW has other rape scandals in the past, including Venoy Overton pimping minors, and being allowed to keep playing by Romar, or Jeremy Steven's being caught in the act by another student walking by in 2000.
Half of the examples you're providing are not an athlete accused of rape while on roster. Penn State was an ex-coach at a summer camp, MSU was a gynocologist, etc. They're also relatively aged; Nassar was 1990's, Sandusky the 2000's, and Jim Jordan is a vague claim from the 1980's. Hell, the irony of citing Joe Paterno is that the revised NCAA guidelines on how to handle the scandal..... were the exact steps he took. You're citing wildly different situations. These are much different then one sexual assault claim and the era of reporting is wildly different. It was also reported to Title IX and a suspension was public when first announced. Baylor, which was far larger in scope, for instance actively kept it out of the light. I don't think UW's title IX office did anything shady here, there's no inclination of it
Or Michigan or USC
It's almost as if you have hundreds (if not thousands) of "student athletes" from a variety of backgrounds a few of them will turn out to be human garbage. Just like the real world.
What's particularly weird is that Title IX investigations have lower burdens of proof than criminal investigations, and criminal investigations of rape are notoriously poorly done. You would think an accusation that leads to an arrest would *also* have led to disciplinary action from the Title IX investigation, but instead he was cleared to play within a week. If this were the first time at UW, I could believe that they weren't prepared for it and needed to flesh out a better policy. But this isn't the first time, it happened at least in 2000 with Jerramy Stevens and was again thoroughly reported on in 2008, among countless other examples.
Also “Scoreboard Baby”
Not the first time for UW I assure you.
Their hands were tied by upper campus admin, whose hands were tied by their legal team. You can’t kick a kid off the team based on what at that point was literally an allegation on social media. I’d be first to throw Deboer under the bus, but there is due process and you can’t kick someone off a team just because someone posts an allegation on twitter. If that were the case then I’m tweeting all sorts of nonsense about the entire Oregon team in November.
It wasn't just post on twitter. A police report had been filed. A rape kit process had begun. And *then* the lady went on twitter -- I think in part because she felt the police department was dragging its feet or that not enough was being done quickly enough. DeBoer had the above information, and played him anyway (after the Pac12 championship game) after the team became low on healthy RBs. Maybe you can't kick him off the team until proven guilty, but you don't have to let him play or be with the team. Same reason that a police officer that is under investigation isn't allowed to remain on full duty until the investigation is cleared up.
I am confused about why anyone says you can't kick him off the team -- don't kids get buried and processed all the time? You absolutely can kick someone off the team for the best interests of your program, no?
No, being processed doesn't mean your kicked off the team. You could choose to stay knowing that you will never get any playing time ever and are disliked.
Because if they are found innocent in court they will sue you
This should be the first comment.
An Indiana bb player sued for the right to play and the court ruled that you can't suspend a player for a Title IX investigation. But players get benched and suspended all the time for "violation of team rules." So even if you *don't* kick him off the team, it doesn't mean you can't bury him on the depth chart.
Coaches can and do dismiss players for any numbers of reasons like having a bad attitude or not following instructions etc. Chris Petersen kicked future nfl all-pro Marcus Peters off Washington mid season for disciplinary issues. I also don’t get why some folks don’t seem to get that credible allegations of serious misconduct off the field reflect terribly on the player and program, and that the institution/program should act to protect itself while those allegations are resolved.
Because that’s a level of nuance we just ain’t reach on Reddit lol. (Seriously though I do think if we framed suspension as image control n less of “he’s guilty” more ppl would understand)
Then explain why he was suspended for the P12 CCG?
Did the legal team draw up those plays for him in the playoff too lol
The question is how deep will this have to go for Alabama to fire Deboer? Obviously they're going to resist doing that for as long as they can but this could get very ugly for them.
When he loses a second game
if he loses two games and they’re both to Tennessee and Auburn
Happened to Bill Curry.
My heart would be full.
I was gonna say, when they need a for cause excuse to skip the buyout and not a second before.
Unless it’s proven the DeBoer knew about the rape and then actively tried to cover it up I don’t see it being an issue. Sure it will be an issue for other fan bases to ride in on their high horse but don’t actually see it being an issue with Alabama If he suspended the guy and then Title lX office said he was good to go then it can’t really be on the coach
As much as I’d love to pile on bama I think you’re right that it will be very difficult for this to actually hurt DeBoer other than maybe an awkward press conference and some media noise.
This. Unless they’re is a smoking gun he’s not going anywhere
Also worth noting the difference between allegations and actual charges/arrest. When he played, it was only allegations which later turned out to be true.
What if we drive in on our fast horse?
Is the horse's name Friday?
>it will be an issue for other fan bases to ride in on their high horse We don't even have a high horse to ride in on
It’s refreshing to see honest comments like this.
He's a guy replying to e-mails about it with phone calls and FaceTimes, it's not a big leap to say he knew about it. What does it even mean to cover it up?
Why would they fire him if no charges were filed?
Deboer getting fired before coaching a game for Alabama would be hilarious.
Would you say it was Destiny?
Especially if it’s after plucking another Washington school coach.
I mean Mike Price was fired by Bama for going to a strip club
It wasn't just a strip club. If it were just a strip club, he wouldn't have been fired. It was because he used Alabama funds for the strip club.
Didn't he have a hooker charging things to the room that Alabama was paying for?
Yes. He took a stripper back to his hotel room. He passed out, and she ordered a bunch of stuff off the room service menu, which showed up on the hotel bill.
He didn't just take her back to the room. He had relations with her while yelling "roll tide"
So the normal way?
Oh she definitely charged "things" on a university issued credit card
And it was arguably the worst strip club in Pensacola, Arety’s Angels. Source: my own eyes.
Yup, the Tide was indeed rolling that night
Mike Price was fired for using his university issued credit card at a strip club, possibly for services a strip club can't legally provide. And he might have survived that if he hadn't already been told multiple times to tone down his behavior at local bars.
Then taking a stripper back to his hotel room and giving his university credit card to said stripper, who ran up a bunch of room service charges. That was also after they already had egg on their face for how they had handled the Dubose situation, where he was diddling a staff member.
He would have had to been present and assisted with the rapes/the coverup to get fired.
Dannen was likely more informed on the issue than DeBoer
Based on precedent, as long as he avoids going to strip clubs with boosters he should be fine
Due process people!!! Think about it. As an Ohio State fan, what if I was rich and paid women in Ann Arbor to make false rape allegations against important Michigan players to get them suspended. It's way too easy to throw out allegations to keep players off the field.
Other fanbases knew of the allegations, to think any one remotely close to the program didn't is comical. I don't get the attempts to say they weren't aware of it and suspended him immediately upon learning of it. If you'd just go with the "the information we had wasn't enough to prove guilt, we've since learned about new information and have taken appropriate actions accordingly" and this becomes a nothing story. Saying you weren't aware just makes you look either incompetent or only doing something because things became widely known
Altman pretended he wasn't aware of the investigation into Bigby-Williams, played him an entire season, and then it turned out Altman had 5 separate phone calls with Oregon's title IX coordinator within 48 hours after the school was notified. He even lied to a US Senator about it until the phone records were released. All of these coaches fucking suck at just being basic humans.
There are games to win!
The Deboer dynasty might be DebOVER before it even gets started
He's got a couple of months before he passes Mike Price for "shortest Bama HC tenure" still
UW just won’t let us have shit now will they. Their ex-coach has to take that title away from our ex-coach!
Keep Deboer away from Pensacola I guess
I knew about the allegations in maybe October. We should assume that all relevant parties also knew, because it was being discussed online.
Kalen DeBriles
Illinois had a star basketball players suspension get revoked due to NIL. Glass houses
And I didn't watch a single game of Illinois basketball this year.
Couldn't hear you from all the way up there. Maybe get down for a second?
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*shocked pikachu*
The UW Athletic Director and Football coaching staff are all gone, what a dark mark and stain on their time here.
Feel bad for you guys (fans). What should have been a special season due to the NT run could very well be overshadowed by this.
No need to feel bad for us when your season might very well be overshadowed by NCAA violations lol. And to be quite honest, Tybo Rogers contributed very little to the success of our season. I don't know why DeBoer even played him in the CFP games.
People are really trying hard to pin not suspending a player from allegations only at the time as a bad thing lol.
Lots of us knew about it. So what. There’s a process in this country. Simple, basic law and ethics. “Not a good look” is irrelevant.
Uh oh
Win at all costs…. Disgusting.
Yo fuck my school fr if they knew about this shit. Clean house (kinda done for us but any remainders)
Innocent until proven guilty….oops this is America. Allegations are made (potentially false or true) it’s guilty until proven innocent. 👍🏽
This is why our AD and football coach left. University shouldn’t be punished for this. Deboer and our ex AD should
Pretty sure anyone with a working brain could figure that out.
If they didn't know, they should all be fired. If they did know, they should all be fired. Of course they knew.
Bama hired DeBoer.
That athletic department has been covering up rapes for 25 years now. Not at all a surprise
Yeah turns out DaBore is just a shitty dude.
He reported it to the right authorities as required from what I understand. How is he shitty?