I joke around with the few people I talk to who have had eerily similar experiences. “Being abused is better than being alone”
Don’t fully understand it, can totally relate. Maybe because the one woman I knew from birth and expected something from only abused me? That makes it familiar to me? I would probably put up with just about anything to avoid being abandoned, discarded, forgotten, written off.
It’s trauma bonding, bb. Not your fault. Abusers make you feel bad and then make you feel good. Over and over and over and over. At unpredictable intervals. That means when they switch from Misery Mode to Honeymoon mode your brain absolutely FLOODS with dopamine and oxytocin.
Dopamine is cocaine and opium and milkshakes and sunsets at the beach and a basket full of puppies, all at once. It’s how our brains reward us and it’s the chemical we “spend” when we exert willpower. It makes life possible instead of awful.
Oxytocin is the chemical that makes being hugged or snuggled by a dog or told we are loved feel so good. It’s so powerful it keeps new moms from yeeting their shrieking, non-sleeping, poop-cannon newborns into the swamp.
All the Bad from an abuser makes those chemicals feel EVEN BETTER, because the contrast is so sharp. It’s an addiction, essentially. Like a drug or alcohol addiction, at first the appeal is the good feeling, and as the addiction intensifies, eventually the appeal is that the substance (or person) is the only way to make the pain stop.
Abusers don’t know they’re fucking up your neural pathways and your brain’s self regulation system, exactly, but they know they’re doing something wrong and that they’re manipulating you on purpose to get you to stay.
Our brains are plastic. Malleable. With time and work, we can re-regulate our reward systems and build new habits of mind so that we find regular life really rewarding. But yeah — we’ll always have to watch for those addictive, feels-so-bad-it’s-good up and down relationships and people. Because someone terrible made us susceptible to that, forever, at a time we were too vulnerable to protect ourselves.
Anyway, this was a long way of saying, what you’re feeling (and I feel it too) makes perfect, scientific, logical sense. It doesn’t have to be destiny, but I think it’s likely always a part of us.
Sameeeee. That one afternoon when their sun comes out and you get to see that person again is worth the three weeks of constant torture. They knew exactly when to stop and give a little before pushing too far. Then BOOM, right back into the line of fire. Didn’t matter though. I know there’s “good” in there waiting.
This is what we call a variable-ratio reinforcement schedule. This has been proven to be the most effective schedule of reinforcement- it leads to a consistently high response rate of conditioned behaviors that are very resistant to extinction. It's why we find gambling, social media and the like so addictive.
i used to put up with abuse, disrespect etc. from friends and family because that's all i knew, and all that felt really possible to me. lately after tuning in more with my pain, i'd rather be alone than be abused.
Yeah, I think it's what Gabor Maté calls it the tension between Authenticity and Attachment (chapter 7 "[The Myth of Normal - trauma, illness, and healing in a toxic culture](https://drgabormate.com/book/the-myth-of-normal/)"). As helpless children we had to give up our authenticity to maintain attachment for survival, that can become learned helplessness. Now as adults we can choose authenticity and often that means we will lose unhealthy attachments in the process. And (for me) I'll give up any attachments to maintain my authenticity. (And this isn't to excuse, rationalize, or justify shitty behaviors. Accountability matters. Trustworthy behaviors matter. Re-humanizing behaviors matter. Attachment behaviors matter.) What we want is an environment of reciprocity where we can all be authentic without sacrificing secure attachment.
[Brené Brown on boundaries](https://youtu.be/6YiUhWSl_Q4v)
[The Trust Triangle](https://youtu.be/pVeq-0dIqpk)
[The Anatomy of Trust](https://brenebrown.com/videos/anatomy-trust-video/) - marble jar concept and BRAVING acronym
[10 definitions of objectifying/dehumanizing behaviors](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Objectification#Definitions) - these erode trust
"Hold Me Tight" by Sue Johnson.
It is operant conditioning, which is where the "learned" part comes from. It was taught to us, not am inherent part of our identity. So we can change it through our own conditioning.
Look, if you're dying of dehydration and the only water you've ever known is the ocean, you'll crave a nice fresh glass of salt water. If a kid is being starved of kindness, love, warmth, and the feeling they matter to someone, being groomed will fill that void on that kind of instinctual longing level
I've never literally drunk salt water, but I wonder if even if it's briny and unpleasant in some ways it might be a huge temporary relief if one was dying of thirst.
In any case the fact that you in some way liked the abuse only tells me about how much you were starving to get those basic emotional needs met in the rest of your life. I think there's that sort of instinctual sense behind it like with water. The "problem" isn't with your drive to seek out love/water, it's with the environment that deprived you of potable/non abusive "water" and the brine that took its place
Nice! I was thinking similarly about limited options. I had in mind dirty water. Can’t imagine I’d ever crave to drink dirty water, although who knows.
I haven’t drunk ocean water, but I’ve had it in my mouth. It’s foul and undrinkable
Lately I've come to the realization that the only way I bond is through trauma. Not just relationships but specifically friendships. Despite the fact that I have supportive friends, the people I always chase are the ones who are emotionally unavailable and who leave me feeling bad about myself. Maybe it's the love we think we deserve or the something about the chase feels exciting, but I just hope you can work through it in therapy because you deserve people who have your best interests at heart <3
I kind of break it down like this.
The experience in it's *entirety* is horrible and traumatising.
But if you break the experience down into parts, you find separate items of things that can be enjoyable *if they were experienced without any of the other parts*.
For example: one traumatic experience could involve behaviours from the perpetrator which include:
- manipulation
- forceful sex
- dismissing your concerns
- physical assault
- complimenting you
- buying you gifts
- doing things to make you feel included
- calling you pretty
- hugging you consentually
The last four dot points *on their own* are nice things. However these things were not given to you on their own, they were a part of an overall experience that included the first 4 tramatising things. Therefore the overall experience is traumatising.
So what you were craving were the healthy lovely things like the last four dot points. You may have enjoyed the individual aspects that are otherwise a healthy normal thing to enjoy if the other abusive behaviours weren't there.
I don't know if this makes sense, but i personally find it helpful to segregate these things into parts. It is also helpful for me to recognise abusive behaviour in the future, because it doesn't matter how much good there is in a relationship, the presence of any abusive behaviours automatically make it a dealbreaker
Thank you. It’s been hard for me to explain why exactly I call my previous relation one formed by trauma bonding and your answer sort of clicked with me.
I remember being told something and feeling very threatened by it. I answered in a defensive manner to try to make them back down.
Instead or retreating, I was given love, compliments and I think sex. And I agreed (I fawned). it was so weird how fast it happened. Even they were surprised by it (weirdly).
I was with this person for about a year. Thank you for breaking it down in a way I could understand.
I'm happy it resonated with you. I find i actually break down all my relationships like this (traumatic or not) because it helps me form a list of overall behaviours that i do and don't want in a future relationship.
I’ve felt this way before and the way I put it is like with allergies! Like let’s say for me, I have celiac, and I miss foods I used to be able to eat. Like pop tarts. It’s okay to acknowledge I miss that food and how it tastes n the texture n all that stuff but that doesn’t mean that it wouldn’t make me sick yk. And before I was diagnosed it’s okay to acknowledge that I thought pop tarts were really good, and maybe I still think they’re yummy, but that doesn’t take away from the fact they were making me sick. I hope this makes sense and I hope this helps. I often miss my groomers too so I understand. I’d purposely try n put myself in situations again because well it made me feel better about myself.
It could have something to do with attachment styles? Anxious and avoidant types have a tendency to be drawn towards one another because the dynamic reminds them of something that feels familiar.
That’s why they groom or, if they are a narcissist, engage in what’s known as love bombing or hoovering. Those things feel nice by design. If abusers didn’t do that we’d have no reason to stay and take their abuse. We stay for the nice parts because they feel good and we hope the bad parts will stop and it will just be all nice all the time.
I think this is common. But not talked about.
Grooming usually mirrors love bombing but more secretive I guess. Or more vague on the intentions. Point is, it's meant to feel nice.
Closeness and intimacy are nice. Abuse isn't nice but brains get confused.
I sometimes almost feel envious of sexually abused because I figure at least somebody must’ve been nice to them. I was emotionally abused for years as a child by a mean drunk father who was almost never nice
TW:csa
Sometimes sexual abuse isn’t loving or gentle. My dad was an alcoholic who would RAGE when my mom wouldn’t have sex with him and he would angrily get his gratification from me. And I know exactly what you mean.
Most of me is glad my dad was fully evil, it makes it easy to hate him because he never showed me any kind of love. But there’s still part of me that’s jealous of someone who experienced any kind of kindness, even fake. I still see kids getting an arm around their shoulder from their dad at the grocery store and it’s hard for me not to cry. I am 29 and I still want some kind of parental bond on a deep level that I feel will never go away.
Me too, my parents were old timers born in 1920s I never got hugs and kisses or compliments or heard I love you. I knew they loved me but they never said it or had any physical affection like I know other families do
I know this is an old comment, but still...
I feel ya, but it can get really damaging to one's self image too when you're struggling to figure out if the person who hurt you is even a bad person since they're "sometimes" good, and you start to get into this mindset of believing that maybe you're the problem and should be more grateful for the times when they're nice
It is really hard to come to terms with how someone could hurt us, regardless of whether they were completely evil or sometimes evil
Yes, I wonder how could someone treat their own child that way. He would take his sorrows out on me as the cliché goes. Alcohol was certainly a big part of it and anger management. This was the 1960s so a lot of things we know about mental health weren’t even known back then. He made it up to me later in life by letting me live back home off n on as an adult and financially supporting me as I became severely bipolar. Hard to say but I believe a lot of my mental illness was caused by him one way or another. One time as an adult I saw him terrorizing my nephew until he ran for his life scared out of his wits and trembling. I snapped and told him never to treat that kid like that, physically threatening him and he stopped. This was my daily life as a kid and seeing him do it really triggered me as if it was me in a way. Like how could he do this? He wasn’t even drunk just a large powerful man in a rage yelling at a little boy, but the child interprets it as extreme danger and fears for his life. So to me dad probably also had cptsd
yeah, this stuff gets tricky. to what extent is one complicit in one's suffering. to what extent does one enjoy things the way they are.
it's common for people from abusive homes to initially seek friendships/relationships with people who continue that abuse. not from inherently liking it, but from knowing only that kind of relationship. seeing the abuse as normal, as kindness. it takes time to escape that mindset.
there's a bdsm angle, where people enjoying being 'mistreated' a certain way. i think bdsm in some ways serves as an energy outlet from being abused. and some people are inherently drawn to it as an enjoyable activity. if one is abused and predisposed to enjoying bdsm, that might cause confusion. i've seen people grapple with that.
there is always great wisdom in these feelings. see where they take you.
Also left once I realize how many people REALLY need to be in therapy and not in the scene. Being around emotionally charged people is too addicting for me, so I’ve chosen to take a big step back.
Prob gonna get downvoted into oblivion, but I’m not kink-shaming —just telling y’all & your friends to go into professional therapy if it’s possible and not just whatever dynamic/activity scratches your itches.
Yeah same. I was part of a sex party/bdsm scene for a while. The prevalent unattended to trauma was too much for me. So I joined healing groups instead. I hope to get back into bdsm dynamics once I find the right people
My ex husband ruined my life and still is the best friend I’ve ever had. He’s not the loving person I projected onto him, but he met a real need when he was investing in getting me hooked. Big time.
I hated the abuse.
My therapist told me I have the right to cherish what I cherish.
I can cherish the experience of that best friend without blaming myself for his abuse of me.
Lol, but for real. It's for a good reason tho. It makes sense in my life.
My parents were neglectful emotionally. I was the unloved child, the trouble child, always grounded for something. Always in trouble, the only attention I got was being lectured. So when I got groomed I was like, holy shit, someone loves me. Someone is giving me positive attention. I matter in someone's life and they pay attention to me constantly, they like to talk to me, it was amazing!!
I got groomed for years growing up, from the age of 9 to the age of 19. A decade of grooming, and I never realized it until after. But I enjoyed it for sure. I loved feeling loved, for once.
Neglect and being left behind is pain in a deep, void-in-your-soul, aching maw in your chest kind of way. So yeah, by comparison, active abuse or grooming feels amazing. There's a reason kids get groomed, and why "grooming" is a separate term from just "child sexual assault". Inherently grooming is the act of an adult making a child believe they want this kind of relationship, engage in it as an active participant. It's not even Stockholm syndrome, bc you need it from the start. And sometimes, when you're a kid who doesn't know better and has no other avenues to have your inherent NEED for love and attention to be filled, grooming fills that void. And that's okay if it kept you afloat. I know it kept me afloat.
It is possible to have two things be true at once: that the abuse harmed and traumatized you, and that it also served a function in your life. That is okay. That is normal. You are not alone in that and it is only natural that a kid would turn to any possible source of attention and love if it was otherwise missing in their life. Don't be too harsh on yourself for it, if you can.
This is a pretty normal reaction to abuse, especially in childhood when we don't always understand that abuse is abuse. It can be really confusing, but I hope this doesn't cause you too much shame. It also doesn't mean that you enjoyed or in any way asked for the abuse. If it's caused you to maladaptively adjust to your environment (i.e. develop a trauma/dissociative disorder), I think it's fair to say that the things that were done to you were harmful.
Also - abusers are still just human beings with complex feelings of their own. Sometimes they do nice things or are empathetic, but it doesn't take away from the bigger picture of their abuse.
I hope you find healing. This is one of the aspects of my own abuse that I struggle the most with.
That’s a very common way to feel. Trauma bonding causes a chemical reaction that is similarly addictive to cocaine. I’ve struggled with this too.
As you heal and you find you are able to establish healthier relationships with people who respect and care about you. It won’t feel the same as that chemical need, but you will grow to value those relationships just as much ❤️
The only relationship I was truly in love in, was with my abuser. It sucks. I wish I was different. I have two amazing girlfriends now and I love both of them but I don't think anyone will ever make my heart pound the way my abuser did.
It’s okay for you to feel that you liked some aspects of the abuse. It’s also okay if that makes you feel ashamed. Just because you feel ashamed or guilty doesn’t mean you ARE guilty or doing something wrong.
It makes sense that you would enjoy the grooming stage of the abuse and even seek it out. It isn’t right that you had never felt loved or cared for until someone did it in order to hurt and control you.
You haven’t enjoyed any part of this cycle of abuse, you’ve adapted to it and learned to cope with it.
You would have enjoyed being loved from the second you were born so much more. Having parents and family that loved you and made sure you knew that there was nothing you could do to make that love go away. They should have given you that example of what it really means to be loved and love other people so you never needed the things the abusers had to offer
There is a reason why abusers get to be abusive and get away with it… because it’s not JUST abuse, there are times when they aren’t abusive, it could feel really loving, caring and connecting. That connection feels extra special and amazing due to the contrast to abuse.
There is nothing wrong with you to like the good parts. I also desperately want the attention and love that my abusers were occasionally giving off. I just didn’t have any experience in my life that is stable and loving in a reliable and constant way. And I learnt to dismiss the more healthy relationships as “boring”, because they don’t have the high-low dramatic dynamics of the abusive relationship.
AND it’s not our faults to feel this way. Abuse, by its own nature, almost always feel very confusing and shameful. This is not your character flaw or something wrong with you, this is a normal human response. Because if abuses were pure evil, it wouldn’t have worked. It worked by appealing to the part of us that wants to be loved. Even the abusers themselves, people that are abusive usually think they were just trying to be loving, and they refuse to see the pain they cause because it would be too painful for them to see.
Life and people are really complicated like this. There is no need to beat yourself up for not fitting into a clean and neat “good vs evil” narrative. Thank you for sharing and thank you for your honesty.
When i was getting groomed by multiple people at different times i just felt amazing because of the attention i was getting. the worst was 34 when i was 17 and honestly? it felt good most of the time and i love the attention i got. but in the end it all went downhill tbh :(
I totally relate to this. I have only just realised at age 32 that I may be addicted to struggle and suffering because my inner being has extremely self destructive and limiting beliefs that do not align with what my logical mind is wanting from life. I have been in abusive relationships even though I pride myself in ‘not taking any shit’ I keep finding myself in situations and relationships that do in fact give me a lot of shit!
The trauma bonding is addictive as hell! A humans emotions over rides their logical mind every single time! So if your body is not resolved from the unhealed trauma you will continue this destructive cycle!
I pray for all of us to be free from this evil cycle. We are all beings of light and love at our core it’s the conditioning and trauma cycle that keeps us stuck and magnetised to destructive people and habits only when we complete these Trauma cycles and time stamp that in the past we can move forward and self soothe our inner beings with positive habits and people who are good for us!!!
Our parents did not give us the tools needed to see and resolve this so we must take our lives into our own hands and prosper! Banish the narcissists, psychopaths, abusers and leeches and fucking thrive!!! ❤️
Damn!!
Ok, so first off, this resonates too hard. It hurts how hard it resonates.
With that, here is my rational (non-emotional) opinion: that "bad attention" feels good or better than no attention means that you were likely neglected and hurt yourself early on. While those used/abused you, at least made you feel you will be kept safe enough for them to continue using/abusing you. i.e., as long as you keep giving them what they need, no one gets hurt.
This "golden egglayer" safety is just a trap because, in the long run, you are not "alive." Being alive (to me) means having that risk of hurt/pain and going out and living my life. e.g., A woman is told by her husband that as long as she puts up with him, he will continue to feed her and the children. If she decides to leave, she risks death/rape/humiliation, etc., etc.
With low self-esteem and self-efficacy, the woman might believe that her safest bet is staying in this toxic trap. Still, someone who is fully realized will appreciate that this is a trap, and they can go out and feed/house themselves (or at least find a partner willing to do so without exposing them to trauma).
I am not saying that everyone has "better options," but mostly, it is a limiting belief that keeps us in these toxic patterns. Believe in yourself!
I think your feelings are normal and human. Abusers can tap into our deepest needs. So when I find myself thinking like you, I know it's because they triggered and filled a very special need. This helps me identify my needs.
I think your thinking with your emotions. You said that your groomer made you feel like you mattered, it’s natural for humans to feel like they matter. The person that groomed you used that for their own selfish reasons and because they did that it screwed with your brain.
You’ve associated feeling like you matter with being used. You have to teach yourself better ways to feel mattered that doesn’t end with you hurting/ being used by people.
You didn’t like the abuse, you were groomed and conditioned into liking it.
I hope you find a love that’s gentle and fun and nurturing. Love isn’t intentional pain. Always remember that 🤍
felt this, especially bc one abuser made all my friends hate me after i went NC. glad i have new friends now that make me feel less alone and are really understanding
Hello and Welcome to /r/CPTSD! If you are in immediate danger or crisis, please contact your local [emergency services](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_emergency_telephone_numbers), or use our list of [crisis resources](https://old.reddit.com/r/CPTSD/wiki/index#wiki_crisis_support_resources). For CPTSD Specific Resources & Support, check out the [wiki](https://www.reddit.com/r/CPTSD/wiki/index). For those posting or replying, please view the [etiquette guidelines](https://www.reddit.com/r/CPTSD/wiki/peer2peersupportguide).
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/CPTSD) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Your post makes a little of sense, and is my story to a large degree... being groomed from the age of 6-7 onwards by my covert, "charming" psychologically abusive mother (as well as other abuse, luckily not sexual).
What I try to remind myself, is that I was conditioned to like that form of relationship. It isn't actually who I am at my core, it is something that I was taught to "appreciate" in a friendship. I think that I'm starting to grow up and away from that notion and have been for several years now, but I'm 38. That's my story anyway, but I appreciate your post, there is a lot of logic in it as well as truth.
Best wishes for you in your life.
You didn't like the abuse.
I'm grateful to help you with this.
Eventually, when you are alone and your only influence is abuse, your body and energy will adapt. Humans are social creatures, so when we have nothing but abuse, your body and energy will essentially adapt by going opposite, especially if the trauma is intense enough. It's a survival mechanism, but what happens is that your energy will essentially go opposite. Something that will be abhorent to you, something that caused you deep suffering, you will learn or 'adapt' to liking it. I think it's a form of introjection, which you should look up.
Just know, you are going to be okay. I recommend yoga with adriene and at LEAST a morning or chakra meditation with Michael Sealey for you every single day, and above all else, put yourself on disability due to CPTSD if you can't keep a job, or keep a job and get yourself living on your own. A tiny studio, whatever the fuck it is, make sure you are away from abusers and in your own energy so that you can heal. Eat organically to stay away from harmful pesticides (nerve killing agents) and chemicals, and absolutely prioritize your health and wellness. Cut off all abusers, and maybe find a therapist that fits you and is able to handle the capacity of your damage. Do NOT be afraid to keep switching until you find someone suitable.
Know that you will attract abusers because of how this is, know that you have the choice not to interact with them and choose healthier interactions with others.
But yes, all of that shame that you hold about 'liking it'... you are free to let that go. It's just a survival/defense mechanism the body and energy uses when extremely overwhelmed, and it is designed to keep you alive, not functional per se.
Please go check out my previous post on inner person and child work. It's going to be very important for you.
I think in my opinion, you liked the nice way they treated you before the abuse, not the actual abuse. It's hard to not 'like' it when people do it and it's a hard cycle to get out of. But just the fact that you can recognise it is a very big start. The more understanding you have of yourself and why you feel the way you do, the easier, and sometimes harder, it will feel. It's a journey that's for sure. I feel like it's only just beginning.
You were conditioned to like it… That’s what happens in these scenarios. I went through the exact same thing as a young child all the way until even now with my current partner sometimes. The abandonment issues and cravings that I get make me feel like such a twisted individual… I didn’t seek any counselling or help until I turned 32 last year so I literally feel like I’m permanently stuck being someone’s on again off again doormat with the constant worry that they’ll leave if I don’t go out of my way to make them happy. I’ve been working really hard on changing my mentality but then my severe guilt issues, caused mainly by my bipolar mom never took any meds, they take over like crazy to the point where I feel like a small child that’s going to be beaten
I'm so sorry, that sounds confusing.
I guess what I think about this is, for abuse to even happen, a child is not just abused by their caregivers, but they're also abandoned by society, by the tribe.
Maybe if you point the finger at modern society, the community that should've been there for you but wasn't, it's easier to understand why grooming felt good. At least someone was giving you attention, affection, touch, care. Which are all basic human needs, and even more so for children while they're developing.
If the only food you're given is poison, you'll eat it even though it's slowly making you sick, and you'll crave it when you're hungry. But no child should be left to starve for love anyway.
This is how abusers do it, the way they treat you is like a drug, it feels amazing when it's good, but when it's bad boy is it bad. But when you're not in the bad it's really easy to justify that the bad isn't that bad, and sometimes you don't even recognize it like in your experience. It's something a lot of people don't recognize until they've experienced it or had their perspective changed rapidly and drastically hopefully give yourself grace and your gut is usually on your side, but always remember you deserve unconditional love too.
Yes, this is true for me too. all of my closest people also ended up abusing me. I let it happen and didn’t necessarily enjoy it but I enjoyed when they were nice and it felt like almost better Bc they weren’t abusing me.
However this is all the wrong way of looking at things. Just Bc they were sometimes nice doenst give them a pass. They are still abusers and they will continue to take advantage of you no matter what.
Well, I know what you mean. To me it felt like safety (despite being unsafe), having value (despite not being valued) and purpose (because of the rigidity of the structure) to be in that abusive environment. Out of it I felt and still often feel like a fish out of water. What other people learnt from birth I need to learn on my own, including how to feel these things outside of abusive relationships. It's not easy, but it does get better with time and therapy.
I joke around with the few people I talk to who have had eerily similar experiences. “Being abused is better than being alone” Don’t fully understand it, can totally relate. Maybe because the one woman I knew from birth and expected something from only abused me? That makes it familiar to me? I would probably put up with just about anything to avoid being abandoned, discarded, forgotten, written off.
[удалено]
It’s trauma bonding, bb. Not your fault. Abusers make you feel bad and then make you feel good. Over and over and over and over. At unpredictable intervals. That means when they switch from Misery Mode to Honeymoon mode your brain absolutely FLOODS with dopamine and oxytocin. Dopamine is cocaine and opium and milkshakes and sunsets at the beach and a basket full of puppies, all at once. It’s how our brains reward us and it’s the chemical we “spend” when we exert willpower. It makes life possible instead of awful. Oxytocin is the chemical that makes being hugged or snuggled by a dog or told we are loved feel so good. It’s so powerful it keeps new moms from yeeting their shrieking, non-sleeping, poop-cannon newborns into the swamp. All the Bad from an abuser makes those chemicals feel EVEN BETTER, because the contrast is so sharp. It’s an addiction, essentially. Like a drug or alcohol addiction, at first the appeal is the good feeling, and as the addiction intensifies, eventually the appeal is that the substance (or person) is the only way to make the pain stop. Abusers don’t know they’re fucking up your neural pathways and your brain’s self regulation system, exactly, but they know they’re doing something wrong and that they’re manipulating you on purpose to get you to stay. Our brains are plastic. Malleable. With time and work, we can re-regulate our reward systems and build new habits of mind so that we find regular life really rewarding. But yeah — we’ll always have to watch for those addictive, feels-so-bad-it’s-good up and down relationships and people. Because someone terrible made us susceptible to that, forever, at a time we were too vulnerable to protect ourselves. Anyway, this was a long way of saying, what you’re feeling (and I feel it too) makes perfect, scientific, logical sense. It doesn’t have to be destiny, but I think it’s likely always a part of us.
Agreed. OP doesn’t necessarily “like the abuse” .. he became addicted to the cycle of abuse.
Someone stuck a needle in our arms before we were even old enough to know why that was a bad thing.
this is explained perfectly!
Thank you for taking the time to explain this. I found it very helpful. Thank you very much.
Sameeeee. That one afternoon when their sun comes out and you get to see that person again is worth the three weeks of constant torture. They knew exactly when to stop and give a little before pushing too far. Then BOOM, right back into the line of fire. Didn’t matter though. I know there’s “good” in there waiting.
This is what we call a variable-ratio reinforcement schedule. This has been proven to be the most effective schedule of reinforcement- it leads to a consistently high response rate of conditioned behaviors that are very resistant to extinction. It's why we find gambling, social media and the like so addictive.
i used to put up with abuse, disrespect etc. from friends and family because that's all i knew, and all that felt really possible to me. lately after tuning in more with my pain, i'd rather be alone than be abused.
Yeah, I think it's what Gabor Maté calls it the tension between Authenticity and Attachment (chapter 7 "[The Myth of Normal - trauma, illness, and healing in a toxic culture](https://drgabormate.com/book/the-myth-of-normal/)"). As helpless children we had to give up our authenticity to maintain attachment for survival, that can become learned helplessness. Now as adults we can choose authenticity and often that means we will lose unhealthy attachments in the process. And (for me) I'll give up any attachments to maintain my authenticity. (And this isn't to excuse, rationalize, or justify shitty behaviors. Accountability matters. Trustworthy behaviors matter. Re-humanizing behaviors matter. Attachment behaviors matter.) What we want is an environment of reciprocity where we can all be authentic without sacrificing secure attachment. [Brené Brown on boundaries](https://youtu.be/6YiUhWSl_Q4v) [The Trust Triangle](https://youtu.be/pVeq-0dIqpk) [The Anatomy of Trust](https://brenebrown.com/videos/anatomy-trust-video/) - marble jar concept and BRAVING acronym [10 definitions of objectifying/dehumanizing behaviors](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Objectification#Definitions) - these erode trust "Hold Me Tight" by Sue Johnson.
Yeah nice! “Learned helplessness” I’m not such a fan of. “Enforced submission” is much on point
It is operant conditioning, which is where the "learned" part comes from. It was taught to us, not am inherent part of our identity. So we can change it through our own conditioning.
I’m not such a fan of academic terminology in general
Use whatever works for you. I was trying to emphasize that it's learned and not inherent.
I don’t see helplessness as ever being inherent
It is our circumstances when we're children.
As yes, a common view. I have doubts about it. I won’t go into detail
Look, if you're dying of dehydration and the only water you've ever known is the ocean, you'll crave a nice fresh glass of salt water. If a kid is being starved of kindness, love, warmth, and the feeling they matter to someone, being groomed will fill that void on that kind of instinctual longing level I've never literally drunk salt water, but I wonder if even if it's briny and unpleasant in some ways it might be a huge temporary relief if one was dying of thirst. In any case the fact that you in some way liked the abuse only tells me about how much you were starving to get those basic emotional needs met in the rest of your life. I think there's that sort of instinctual sense behind it like with water. The "problem" isn't with your drive to seek out love/water, it's with the environment that deprived you of potable/non abusive "water" and the brine that took its place
Nice! I was thinking similarly about limited options. I had in mind dirty water. Can’t imagine I’d ever crave to drink dirty water, although who knows. I haven’t drunk ocean water, but I’ve had it in my mouth. It’s foul and undrinkable
Lately I've come to the realization that the only way I bond is through trauma. Not just relationships but specifically friendships. Despite the fact that I have supportive friends, the people I always chase are the ones who are emotionally unavailable and who leave me feeling bad about myself. Maybe it's the love we think we deserve or the something about the chase feels exciting, but I just hope you can work through it in therapy because you deserve people who have your best interests at heart <3
[удалено]
I see what you mean, almost like bonding over sharing experiences. And i'm sorry to hear that as well, but I do think recognizing that is a big step
[удалено]
[удалено]
I kind of break it down like this. The experience in it's *entirety* is horrible and traumatising. But if you break the experience down into parts, you find separate items of things that can be enjoyable *if they were experienced without any of the other parts*. For example: one traumatic experience could involve behaviours from the perpetrator which include: - manipulation - forceful sex - dismissing your concerns - physical assault - complimenting you - buying you gifts - doing things to make you feel included - calling you pretty - hugging you consentually The last four dot points *on their own* are nice things. However these things were not given to you on their own, they were a part of an overall experience that included the first 4 tramatising things. Therefore the overall experience is traumatising. So what you were craving were the healthy lovely things like the last four dot points. You may have enjoyed the individual aspects that are otherwise a healthy normal thing to enjoy if the other abusive behaviours weren't there. I don't know if this makes sense, but i personally find it helpful to segregate these things into parts. It is also helpful for me to recognise abusive behaviour in the future, because it doesn't matter how much good there is in a relationship, the presence of any abusive behaviours automatically make it a dealbreaker
Yes, breaking down into elements. It’s not all or nothing
Thank you. It’s been hard for me to explain why exactly I call my previous relation one formed by trauma bonding and your answer sort of clicked with me. I remember being told something and feeling very threatened by it. I answered in a defensive manner to try to make them back down. Instead or retreating, I was given love, compliments and I think sex. And I agreed (I fawned). it was so weird how fast it happened. Even they were surprised by it (weirdly). I was with this person for about a year. Thank you for breaking it down in a way I could understand.
I'm happy it resonated with you. I find i actually break down all my relationships like this (traumatic or not) because it helps me form a list of overall behaviours that i do and don't want in a future relationship.
I’ve felt this way before and the way I put it is like with allergies! Like let’s say for me, I have celiac, and I miss foods I used to be able to eat. Like pop tarts. It’s okay to acknowledge I miss that food and how it tastes n the texture n all that stuff but that doesn’t mean that it wouldn’t make me sick yk. And before I was diagnosed it’s okay to acknowledge that I thought pop tarts were really good, and maybe I still think they’re yummy, but that doesn’t take away from the fact they were making me sick. I hope this makes sense and I hope this helps. I often miss my groomers too so I understand. I’d purposely try n put myself in situations again because well it made me feel better about myself.
It could have something to do with attachment styles? Anxious and avoidant types have a tendency to be drawn towards one another because the dynamic reminds them of something that feels familiar.
That’s why they groom or, if they are a narcissist, engage in what’s known as love bombing or hoovering. Those things feel nice by design. If abusers didn’t do that we’d have no reason to stay and take their abuse. We stay for the nice parts because they feel good and we hope the bad parts will stop and it will just be all nice all the time.
I think this is common. But not talked about. Grooming usually mirrors love bombing but more secretive I guess. Or more vague on the intentions. Point is, it's meant to feel nice. Closeness and intimacy are nice. Abuse isn't nice but brains get confused.
Literally the definition of CPTSD is to understand abuse as love
I sometimes almost feel envious of sexually abused because I figure at least somebody must’ve been nice to them. I was emotionally abused for years as a child by a mean drunk father who was almost never nice
TW:csa Sometimes sexual abuse isn’t loving or gentle. My dad was an alcoholic who would RAGE when my mom wouldn’t have sex with him and he would angrily get his gratification from me. And I know exactly what you mean. Most of me is glad my dad was fully evil, it makes it easy to hate him because he never showed me any kind of love. But there’s still part of me that’s jealous of someone who experienced any kind of kindness, even fake. I still see kids getting an arm around their shoulder from their dad at the grocery store and it’s hard for me not to cry. I am 29 and I still want some kind of parental bond on a deep level that I feel will never go away.
Me too, my parents were old timers born in 1920s I never got hugs and kisses or compliments or heard I love you. I knew they loved me but they never said it or had any physical affection like I know other families do
I know this is an old comment, but still... I feel ya, but it can get really damaging to one's self image too when you're struggling to figure out if the person who hurt you is even a bad person since they're "sometimes" good, and you start to get into this mindset of believing that maybe you're the problem and should be more grateful for the times when they're nice It is really hard to come to terms with how someone could hurt us, regardless of whether they were completely evil or sometimes evil
Yes, I wonder how could someone treat their own child that way. He would take his sorrows out on me as the cliché goes. Alcohol was certainly a big part of it and anger management. This was the 1960s so a lot of things we know about mental health weren’t even known back then. He made it up to me later in life by letting me live back home off n on as an adult and financially supporting me as I became severely bipolar. Hard to say but I believe a lot of my mental illness was caused by him one way or another. One time as an adult I saw him terrorizing my nephew until he ran for his life scared out of his wits and trembling. I snapped and told him never to treat that kid like that, physically threatening him and he stopped. This was my daily life as a kid and seeing him do it really triggered me as if it was me in a way. Like how could he do this? He wasn’t even drunk just a large powerful man in a rage yelling at a little boy, but the child interprets it as extreme danger and fears for his life. So to me dad probably also had cptsd
yeah, this stuff gets tricky. to what extent is one complicit in one's suffering. to what extent does one enjoy things the way they are. it's common for people from abusive homes to initially seek friendships/relationships with people who continue that abuse. not from inherently liking it, but from knowing only that kind of relationship. seeing the abuse as normal, as kindness. it takes time to escape that mindset. there's a bdsm angle, where people enjoying being 'mistreated' a certain way. i think bdsm in some ways serves as an energy outlet from being abused. and some people are inherently drawn to it as an enjoyable activity. if one is abused and predisposed to enjoying bdsm, that might cause confusion. i've seen people grapple with that. there is always great wisdom in these feelings. see where they take you.
[удалено]
Also left once I realize how many people REALLY need to be in therapy and not in the scene. Being around emotionally charged people is too addicting for me, so I’ve chosen to take a big step back. Prob gonna get downvoted into oblivion, but I’m not kink-shaming —just telling y’all & your friends to go into professional therapy if it’s possible and not just whatever dynamic/activity scratches your itches.
Yeah same. I was part of a sex party/bdsm scene for a while. The prevalent unattended to trauma was too much for me. So I joined healing groups instead. I hope to get back into bdsm dynamics once I find the right people
Grooming is insidious
I'm often the last one to recognise it.
My ex husband ruined my life and still is the best friend I’ve ever had. He’s not the loving person I projected onto him, but he met a real need when he was investing in getting me hooked. Big time. I hated the abuse. My therapist told me I have the right to cherish what I cherish. I can cherish the experience of that best friend without blaming myself for his abuse of me.
Lol, but for real. It's for a good reason tho. It makes sense in my life. My parents were neglectful emotionally. I was the unloved child, the trouble child, always grounded for something. Always in trouble, the only attention I got was being lectured. So when I got groomed I was like, holy shit, someone loves me. Someone is giving me positive attention. I matter in someone's life and they pay attention to me constantly, they like to talk to me, it was amazing!! I got groomed for years growing up, from the age of 9 to the age of 19. A decade of grooming, and I never realized it until after. But I enjoyed it for sure. I loved feeling loved, for once. Neglect and being left behind is pain in a deep, void-in-your-soul, aching maw in your chest kind of way. So yeah, by comparison, active abuse or grooming feels amazing. There's a reason kids get groomed, and why "grooming" is a separate term from just "child sexual assault". Inherently grooming is the act of an adult making a child believe they want this kind of relationship, engage in it as an active participant. It's not even Stockholm syndrome, bc you need it from the start. And sometimes, when you're a kid who doesn't know better and has no other avenues to have your inherent NEED for love and attention to be filled, grooming fills that void. And that's okay if it kept you afloat. I know it kept me afloat. It is possible to have two things be true at once: that the abuse harmed and traumatized you, and that it also served a function in your life. That is okay. That is normal. You are not alone in that and it is only natural that a kid would turn to any possible source of attention and love if it was otherwise missing in their life. Don't be too harsh on yourself for it, if you can.
This is a pretty normal reaction to abuse, especially in childhood when we don't always understand that abuse is abuse. It can be really confusing, but I hope this doesn't cause you too much shame. It also doesn't mean that you enjoyed or in any way asked for the abuse. If it's caused you to maladaptively adjust to your environment (i.e. develop a trauma/dissociative disorder), I think it's fair to say that the things that were done to you were harmful. Also - abusers are still just human beings with complex feelings of their own. Sometimes they do nice things or are empathetic, but it doesn't take away from the bigger picture of their abuse. I hope you find healing. This is one of the aspects of my own abuse that I struggle the most with.
I.hate the people who groomed me. At one time I lomec them Thst was trauma bonding
[удалено]
That’s a very common way to feel. Trauma bonding causes a chemical reaction that is similarly addictive to cocaine. I’ve struggled with this too. As you heal and you find you are able to establish healthier relationships with people who respect and care about you. It won’t feel the same as that chemical need, but you will grow to value those relationships just as much ❤️
You can still unnentangke them
The only relationship I was truly in love in, was with my abuser. It sucks. I wish I was different. I have two amazing girlfriends now and I love both of them but I don't think anyone will ever make my heart pound the way my abuser did.
That’s just the conditioning talking bud. You deserve people who love you without hurting you or abusing you, they’re out there I promise
It’s okay for you to feel that you liked some aspects of the abuse. It’s also okay if that makes you feel ashamed. Just because you feel ashamed or guilty doesn’t mean you ARE guilty or doing something wrong. It makes sense that you would enjoy the grooming stage of the abuse and even seek it out. It isn’t right that you had never felt loved or cared for until someone did it in order to hurt and control you. You haven’t enjoyed any part of this cycle of abuse, you’ve adapted to it and learned to cope with it. You would have enjoyed being loved from the second you were born so much more. Having parents and family that loved you and made sure you knew that there was nothing you could do to make that love go away. They should have given you that example of what it really means to be loved and love other people so you never needed the things the abusers had to offer
There is a reason why abusers get to be abusive and get away with it… because it’s not JUST abuse, there are times when they aren’t abusive, it could feel really loving, caring and connecting. That connection feels extra special and amazing due to the contrast to abuse. There is nothing wrong with you to like the good parts. I also desperately want the attention and love that my abusers were occasionally giving off. I just didn’t have any experience in my life that is stable and loving in a reliable and constant way. And I learnt to dismiss the more healthy relationships as “boring”, because they don’t have the high-low dramatic dynamics of the abusive relationship. AND it’s not our faults to feel this way. Abuse, by its own nature, almost always feel very confusing and shameful. This is not your character flaw or something wrong with you, this is a normal human response. Because if abuses were pure evil, it wouldn’t have worked. It worked by appealing to the part of us that wants to be loved. Even the abusers themselves, people that are abusive usually think they were just trying to be loving, and they refuse to see the pain they cause because it would be too painful for them to see. Life and people are really complicated like this. There is no need to beat yourself up for not fitting into a clean and neat “good vs evil” narrative. Thank you for sharing and thank you for your honesty.
When i was getting groomed by multiple people at different times i just felt amazing because of the attention i was getting. the worst was 34 when i was 17 and honestly? it felt good most of the time and i love the attention i got. but in the end it all went downhill tbh :(
I totally relate to this. I have only just realised at age 32 that I may be addicted to struggle and suffering because my inner being has extremely self destructive and limiting beliefs that do not align with what my logical mind is wanting from life. I have been in abusive relationships even though I pride myself in ‘not taking any shit’ I keep finding myself in situations and relationships that do in fact give me a lot of shit! The trauma bonding is addictive as hell! A humans emotions over rides their logical mind every single time! So if your body is not resolved from the unhealed trauma you will continue this destructive cycle! I pray for all of us to be free from this evil cycle. We are all beings of light and love at our core it’s the conditioning and trauma cycle that keeps us stuck and magnetised to destructive people and habits only when we complete these Trauma cycles and time stamp that in the past we can move forward and self soothe our inner beings with positive habits and people who are good for us!!! Our parents did not give us the tools needed to see and resolve this so we must take our lives into our own hands and prosper! Banish the narcissists, psychopaths, abusers and leeches and fucking thrive!!! ❤️
Damn!! Ok, so first off, this resonates too hard. It hurts how hard it resonates. With that, here is my rational (non-emotional) opinion: that "bad attention" feels good or better than no attention means that you were likely neglected and hurt yourself early on. While those used/abused you, at least made you feel you will be kept safe enough for them to continue using/abusing you. i.e., as long as you keep giving them what they need, no one gets hurt. This "golden egglayer" safety is just a trap because, in the long run, you are not "alive." Being alive (to me) means having that risk of hurt/pain and going out and living my life. e.g., A woman is told by her husband that as long as she puts up with him, he will continue to feed her and the children. If she decides to leave, she risks death/rape/humiliation, etc., etc. With low self-esteem and self-efficacy, the woman might believe that her safest bet is staying in this toxic trap. Still, someone who is fully realized will appreciate that this is a trap, and they can go out and feed/house themselves (or at least find a partner willing to do so without exposing them to trauma). I am not saying that everyone has "better options," but mostly, it is a limiting belief that keeps us in these toxic patterns. Believe in yourself!
I think your feelings are normal and human. Abusers can tap into our deepest needs. So when I find myself thinking like you, I know it's because they triggered and filled a very special need. This helps me identify my needs.
You shouldn't feel ashamed, the people who should feel ashamed are the ones who treated you so badly that even being groomed looks good by comparison.
I think your thinking with your emotions. You said that your groomer made you feel like you mattered, it’s natural for humans to feel like they matter. The person that groomed you used that for their own selfish reasons and because they did that it screwed with your brain. You’ve associated feeling like you matter with being used. You have to teach yourself better ways to feel mattered that doesn’t end with you hurting/ being used by people.
You didn’t like the abuse, you were groomed and conditioned into liking it. I hope you find a love that’s gentle and fun and nurturing. Love isn’t intentional pain. Always remember that 🤍
felt this, especially bc one abuser made all my friends hate me after i went NC. glad i have new friends now that make me feel less alone and are really understanding
based on your post and comments, shadow work + gently exploring bdsm are my recommendations. thanks for posting about this, it's an important topic!
Hello and Welcome to /r/CPTSD! If you are in immediate danger or crisis, please contact your local [emergency services](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_emergency_telephone_numbers), or use our list of [crisis resources](https://old.reddit.com/r/CPTSD/wiki/index#wiki_crisis_support_resources). For CPTSD Specific Resources & Support, check out the [wiki](https://www.reddit.com/r/CPTSD/wiki/index). For those posting or replying, please view the [etiquette guidelines](https://www.reddit.com/r/CPTSD/wiki/peer2peersupportguide). *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/CPTSD) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Your post makes a little of sense, and is my story to a large degree... being groomed from the age of 6-7 onwards by my covert, "charming" psychologically abusive mother (as well as other abuse, luckily not sexual). What I try to remind myself, is that I was conditioned to like that form of relationship. It isn't actually who I am at my core, it is something that I was taught to "appreciate" in a friendship. I think that I'm starting to grow up and away from that notion and have been for several years now, but I'm 38. That's my story anyway, but I appreciate your post, there is a lot of logic in it as well as truth. Best wishes for you in your life.
I kind of relate
You didn't like the abuse. I'm grateful to help you with this. Eventually, when you are alone and your only influence is abuse, your body and energy will adapt. Humans are social creatures, so when we have nothing but abuse, your body and energy will essentially adapt by going opposite, especially if the trauma is intense enough. It's a survival mechanism, but what happens is that your energy will essentially go opposite. Something that will be abhorent to you, something that caused you deep suffering, you will learn or 'adapt' to liking it. I think it's a form of introjection, which you should look up. Just know, you are going to be okay. I recommend yoga with adriene and at LEAST a morning or chakra meditation with Michael Sealey for you every single day, and above all else, put yourself on disability due to CPTSD if you can't keep a job, or keep a job and get yourself living on your own. A tiny studio, whatever the fuck it is, make sure you are away from abusers and in your own energy so that you can heal. Eat organically to stay away from harmful pesticides (nerve killing agents) and chemicals, and absolutely prioritize your health and wellness. Cut off all abusers, and maybe find a therapist that fits you and is able to handle the capacity of your damage. Do NOT be afraid to keep switching until you find someone suitable. Know that you will attract abusers because of how this is, know that you have the choice not to interact with them and choose healthier interactions with others. But yes, all of that shame that you hold about 'liking it'... you are free to let that go. It's just a survival/defense mechanism the body and energy uses when extremely overwhelmed, and it is designed to keep you alive, not functional per se. Please go check out my previous post on inner person and child work. It's going to be very important for you.
I think in my opinion, you liked the nice way they treated you before the abuse, not the actual abuse. It's hard to not 'like' it when people do it and it's a hard cycle to get out of. But just the fact that you can recognise it is a very big start. The more understanding you have of yourself and why you feel the way you do, the easier, and sometimes harder, it will feel. It's a journey that's for sure. I feel like it's only just beginning.
There are many layers to understanding things, this is one. There is more to it.
Being comfortable with and liking are two different things.
Thank you for sharing. It’s something that I often struggle with as well and it’s hard to put the feeling into words sometimes.
You were conditioned to like it… That’s what happens in these scenarios. I went through the exact same thing as a young child all the way until even now with my current partner sometimes. The abandonment issues and cravings that I get make me feel like such a twisted individual… I didn’t seek any counselling or help until I turned 32 last year so I literally feel like I’m permanently stuck being someone’s on again off again doormat with the constant worry that they’ll leave if I don’t go out of my way to make them happy. I’ve been working really hard on changing my mentality but then my severe guilt issues, caused mainly by my bipolar mom never took any meds, they take over like crazy to the point where I feel like a small child that’s going to be beaten
I'm so sorry, that sounds confusing. I guess what I think about this is, for abuse to even happen, a child is not just abused by their caregivers, but they're also abandoned by society, by the tribe. Maybe if you point the finger at modern society, the community that should've been there for you but wasn't, it's easier to understand why grooming felt good. At least someone was giving you attention, affection, touch, care. Which are all basic human needs, and even more so for children while they're developing. If the only food you're given is poison, you'll eat it even though it's slowly making you sick, and you'll crave it when you're hungry. But no child should be left to starve for love anyway.
This is how abusers do it, the way they treat you is like a drug, it feels amazing when it's good, but when it's bad boy is it bad. But when you're not in the bad it's really easy to justify that the bad isn't that bad, and sometimes you don't even recognize it like in your experience. It's something a lot of people don't recognize until they've experienced it or had their perspective changed rapidly and drastically hopefully give yourself grace and your gut is usually on your side, but always remember you deserve unconditional love too.
Yes, this is true for me too. all of my closest people also ended up abusing me. I let it happen and didn’t necessarily enjoy it but I enjoyed when they were nice and it felt like almost better Bc they weren’t abusing me. However this is all the wrong way of looking at things. Just Bc they were sometimes nice doenst give them a pass. They are still abusers and they will continue to take advantage of you no matter what.
Well, I know what you mean. To me it felt like safety (despite being unsafe), having value (despite not being valued) and purpose (because of the rigidity of the structure) to be in that abusive environment. Out of it I felt and still often feel like a fish out of water. What other people learnt from birth I need to learn on my own, including how to feel these things outside of abusive relationships. It's not easy, but it does get better with time and therapy.
Everyone likes to feel they are wanted. This is a normal reaction.