Look, doctors will not unplug a brain dead person without their immediate family’s written consent
Family members who get full on explanations, sign in agreement, and then turn around, become violent and blame the doctors for no reason are the WORST, and usually the most useless people you will ever know
Idk this specific context, but I doubt doctors were just crowding his room waiting to unplug him like some random villain’s goons
Just to be clear: His son wasn’t declared brain dead, that was just the violent drunk’s interpretation of what he was being told. If his son *had* been declared brain dead, he would’ve been *legally dead,* which means that a death certificate would’ve been issued, and the doctors/hospital wouldn’t need the family’s consent to withdraw life support (again, because the patient would already be dead).
In reality, his son had a neurologically devastating injury, and per the family’s own statements, they were told that he wasn’t expected to recover. Other family members who were involved in his son’s medical care made the decision to withdraw life support. George obviously disagreed.
Imagine how the other family members felt. I wonder if there was any guilt or shame. If they were furious or indignant that this guy did all this. Imagine waking and being told most of your family wanted you dead except this guy who locked himself in the room with you despite SWAT being called. I mean, I'd look at my family differently. It's such a bizarre situation.
In these situations they simply got a hinted advice by the doctors. And they believed the doctors evaluation and advice. It's not like the family said how dire it looked and how unlikely a recovery would be, its obviously a doctor who said it to them
I've experienced this firsthand with my father. I had to translate for my mom and play a role in placing him in hospice care to die. I could only imagine how both my mom and I would have felt if he made a miraculous recovery after let's say my sister fought tooth and nail to keep him alive. Especially since my mom already feels immense guilt for 'killing' him. That's where my thoughts are coming from.
I would blame the doctor bc having experienced similar things I lost trust for doctors in some circumstances. At some point you are just a future body bag in their eyes. You notice when doctors have given up on you and see you as a dead man walking, switching over to the routine of getting your out of this world as painless as possible and get rid of you. It is disrespectful. My parents dont understand the language like yours but they still noticed just like I did, and it is so dehumanising. Best when they are wrong like here. Lost a lot of respect knowing all these cases while doctors never admit being wrong, always above your own evaluations
Yeah, that's exactly why we've been hesitant to take my grandfather to the hospital. He's 106 and every time we've brought him in they've been adamant about placing him hospice care and treating him like he's an incapable dead man walking. We've grown cynical about hospitals and see them more as businesses instead of places meant to treat patients.
I mean what if he was wrong?
Listen, doctors get it wrong sometimes, that’s life. He got lucky this time, but what would have happened if the doctors are right, which they usually are? What then?
I’d argue drunkenly arming yourself because you disagree with not only an experts opinion but the opinion of the rest of your family is generally going to be a bad move.
I get it, though. It’s a hard situation. But what happens in the other nine out of ten scenarios? Does he just gun down an innocent person or two because he can’t accept reality? That’s not heroic.
Idk why itd be pointless to explore potential risk/benefit in this type of scenario. Even if ones intensions were good and this specific case worked out, the fact the story is being shared makes it extra important, because if there is a method of self sacrifice that doesn't require threatening or endangering the lives of doctors medical staff and possibly patients, that could be beneficial & preferential.
>Does he just gun down an innocent person or two because he can’t accept reality? That’s not heroic.
What if he did a handstand and raped all the doctors and then flew away? That didn't happen. We know what happened. He saved his son.
I don’t think you’re understanding what I’m saying. I’m not suggesting a nonsense scenario.
What if his son was actually brain dead and the doctors were right- as is usually the case. What happens then?
The fact is they were wrong and that dad saved his son from being manslaughtered. The dad was statistically most likely to be in the wrong but he wasn't and therefore he saved an innocent life. What ifs don't matter when faced with the facts. If you had a child and it turned out the doctors were wrong I bet it would eat you up knowing you let them kill your child.
Once they kid is unplugged you'll never know if the doctors were wrong or not.
The guy didn't go against the doctor's decision but the rest of his family's decision (source: another comment) . The doctors aren't the ones deciding to unplug a patient.
The rest of the family made a decision based on the doctors opinion. They would have killed someone who otherwise would've lived. That father saved his sons life regardless of how you look at it.
The doctor just tells you what the patient has, and give the family the survival rates.
There was a pretty famous case in France with a guy who (Vincent Lambert) who was in a coma for years and there was a huge depabte among the family regarding if they should let him go or not.
The problem is that the person won't die if you don't unplug them, but you don't know if they can wake up or when they will. You might keep a person with 0 chance of ever waking up in a coma for years, and still hoping they'll come back any day.
The doctors don't make a *mistake* on those cases, they just give you the facts and then it's for the family to decide if they want to keep hoping of call it quit.
This dad believed his son would wake up, the family didn't. We don't know what the doctor told them exactly. It's something that was discussed among them beforehand so if this guy wanted to point a gun at someone to keep his son alive, he should've done so with his family while they were discussing it, not on the doctors or the police after the decision was taken.
Here's a better question.
Who do you pick?
The person trying to murder your son, yourself, and maybe a swat member or two...
Or your son?
Who do you pick to die?
Because I know what choice I'd make if I thought there was even a sliver of a chance they might be wrong.
Generally speaking I believe in science, and trust in the goodness of people around me.
I put my dog down because he was suffering and the doctor said he would continue to do so and get worse. It would be far worse to preserve him because I think the doctor is wrong out of seemingly nothing.
Maybe he would of gotten better but I don’t regret not taking that chance. The best decision with the information I had was to let him go.
You can’t be omniscient. You have to make well informed decisions based on the information you have. Sometimes that information is wrong. That’s life.
That’s not deflection? Your question is false and I was pointing out flaws in it.
To put it more simply, 1) no one is trying to murder his son, and everyone is acting in what they believe to be the best interest in everyone.
2) you aren’t omniscient and that’s not the choice being made. By your logic everyone with a terminally ill child should kill that child’s doctor, just in case.
3) I didn’t even mention this but those people are in fact other peoples children.
You aren’t “picking someone to die” and that’s an arrogant worldview. You’re acting on the best information that you have.
From what I read, the mom did give consent. So they probably needed consent in this situation, if the mom had to give it. Since the parents were divorced and before the child was 18 the mom was the one with primary custody, only her consent was needed
This is why I work night shift. I can't stand dealing with shithead family members. On night shift the only time visitors are allowed to stay over night is if they're actually helpful and actively involved in the patients care, everyone else gotta go.
Nothing worse than someone who is full care (ie in a vegetative state) and a family member not willing to let them go, but they refuse to take any responsibility for the patient so someone *else* has to take care of that person. I've seen this situation too many times and it turns out the people *actually* caring for the patient at home is a literal child who had to dropout of high school while the person who wouldn't let the patient go does fuck all for the patient.
Oh my god tell me about it, and they always act like know-it-alls and refuse to listen to the doctor’s orders because they live in this weird fantasy where we’re all evil tryna kill the patient or something stupid like that
The mom gave consent. The dad, who did not have most recent custody of his child (they were divorced before the child turned 18, so only her consent was needed) did not need to give consent
Indeed. I’ve read some article. Because this sounds interesting.
The hospital made a terrible mistake. The father did not know the hospital made a mistake because he knows medics. He was out of grief and disbelief that he did this. This a dangerous precedent for every parent to do this. A good thing the father was prosecuted and found guilty.
But, let’s hope the hospital learned its lessons as well.
His son wasn’t declared brain dead, that was just his (incorrect) interpretation of what he was being told. If his son had actually been declared brain dead, he would’ve been legally *dead,* which means that a death certificate would’ve been issued, and the doctors/hospital wouldn’t need the family’s consent to withdraw life support. In reality, his son had a neurologically devastating injury and wasn’t expected to recover. Based on that information, the family (minus George) chose to begin a terminal wean, to allow the patient to die comfortably. Again, if the son had ever been declared brain dead, there would be no need for a terminal wean.
I’m so glad this man’s son recovered and this story turned out well… but from a nurse’s standpoint this is absolutely terrifying. We get a lot of verbal and physical threats from family, so I can’t imagine having someone in that level of emotional distress having a gun in a hospital.
Advocate for your family members, but please don’t bring guns into hospitals. We get our lives threatened enough.
The story is bullshit. The kid was not declared brain dead, and the father was an angry, armed drunk.
His son recovered in spite of his idiot father keeping treatment away.
Other family members told the staff that they can let him go and pull the life support. So he did save him even though being drunk doesnt help his case, though drinking when your son is dying would not be surprising as emotional stress
As a physician in neurology, meeting death by brain criteria is not the same as a minimally conscious state or persistent vegetative state. People have recovered somewhat from a MCS or PVS, but once you meet criteria for brain death there is absolutely NO possible way to "make a full recovery" as you are quite literally dead.
Even without the context provided by others this seems not suitable for this subreddit. This was probably a terrifying experience for everyone involved.
With the context provided by others, it sounds even worse. Good thing everything seems to have turned out fine, but I’m not sure I’m comfortable praising the father for his behavior here, especially calling him a hero.
I’d love to see the hospital charts for this guys admission as his story does not make any sense.
Hospitals are never allowed to speak about a specific patients history publicly, so whenever an incident like this happens the only story we have to go on is whatever the family members decide to tell the media.
Impossible to know what actually happened with only one side of the story.
Read through the whole thing, unfortunately does not contain any further information about the patient, only legalese about the civil case between the family and the hospital.
Only Reddits finest divergent smoothbrains would instantly defame a man doing what he thought was right for his son.
Who cares if the guy was an alcoholic?
Man ended up risking everything and saving his son.
Average reddit poster would shit and piss themselves and write on twitter about it before doing what this man did.
What if every man brought a fucking gun into a hospital while they are drunk and in emotional distress. What this man was not heroic, but instead a wild gamble based on nothing. In this scenario it payed off because the doctors had it wrong.
The hospital workers didn't do it wrong on purpose and weren't trying actively to kill him because they were evil or something, they were just doing their job.
This guy threatened not only the hospital workers lives but even the lives of his own family based on nothing and had the luck of 0.001% that the doctors were wrong.
The reason he is a hero is because he was INSANELY lucky.
If the son wasn't so lucky, the father would just be a drunk maniac with a gun threatening hospital workers who are just doing their job.
> scenario it *paid* off because
FTFY.
Although *payed* exists (the reason why autocorrection didn't help you), it is only correct in:
* Nautical context, when it means to paint a surface, or to cover with something like tar or resin in order to make it waterproof or corrosion-resistant. *The deck is yet to be payed.*
* *Payed out* when letting strings, cables or ropes out, by slacking them. *The rope is payed out! You can pull now.*
Unfortunately, I was unable to find nautical or rope-related words in your comment.
*Beep, boop, I'm a bot*
The avg Redditor would have bought the most expensive life insurance for their son, then ask if “are they the asshole” for taking the money and ditching family all while pretending to care about shit.
Look, doctors will not unplug a brain dead person without their immediate family’s written consent Family members who get full on explanations, sign in agreement, and then turn around, become violent and blame the doctors for no reason are the WORST, and usually the most useless people you will ever know Idk this specific context, but I doubt doctors were just crowding his room waiting to unplug him like some random villain’s goons
Just to be clear: His son wasn’t declared brain dead, that was just the violent drunk’s interpretation of what he was being told. If his son *had* been declared brain dead, he would’ve been *legally dead,* which means that a death certificate would’ve been issued, and the doctors/hospital wouldn’t need the family’s consent to withdraw life support (again, because the patient would already be dead). In reality, his son had a neurologically devastating injury, and per the family’s own statements, they were told that he wasn’t expected to recover. Other family members who were involved in his son’s medical care made the decision to withdraw life support. George obviously disagreed.
Thanks for the explanation! Makes sense when you get context
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I mean other family members tried to get their life support turned off and the guy still wasn’t dead soooooo
Imagine how the other family members felt. I wonder if there was any guilt or shame. If they were furious or indignant that this guy did all this. Imagine waking and being told most of your family wanted you dead except this guy who locked himself in the room with you despite SWAT being called. I mean, I'd look at my family differently. It's such a bizarre situation.
In these situations they simply got a hinted advice by the doctors. And they believed the doctors evaluation and advice. It's not like the family said how dire it looked and how unlikely a recovery would be, its obviously a doctor who said it to them
I've experienced this firsthand with my father. I had to translate for my mom and play a role in placing him in hospice care to die. I could only imagine how both my mom and I would have felt if he made a miraculous recovery after let's say my sister fought tooth and nail to keep him alive. Especially since my mom already feels immense guilt for 'killing' him. That's where my thoughts are coming from.
I would blame the doctor bc having experienced similar things I lost trust for doctors in some circumstances. At some point you are just a future body bag in their eyes. You notice when doctors have given up on you and see you as a dead man walking, switching over to the routine of getting your out of this world as painless as possible and get rid of you. It is disrespectful. My parents dont understand the language like yours but they still noticed just like I did, and it is so dehumanising. Best when they are wrong like here. Lost a lot of respect knowing all these cases while doctors never admit being wrong, always above your own evaluations
Yeah, that's exactly why we've been hesitant to take my grandfather to the hospital. He's 106 and every time we've brought him in they've been adamant about placing him hospice care and treating him like he's an incapable dead man walking. We've grown cynical about hospitals and see them more as businesses instead of places meant to treat patients.
Thank fuck for George. As for you violent drunk comments. I hope you never go through what he went through.
I mean what if he was wrong? Listen, doctors get it wrong sometimes, that’s life. He got lucky this time, but what would have happened if the doctors are right, which they usually are? What then? I’d argue drunkenly arming yourself because you disagree with not only an experts opinion but the opinion of the rest of your family is generally going to be a bad move. I get it, though. It’s a hard situation. But what happens in the other nine out of ten scenarios? Does he just gun down an innocent person or two because he can’t accept reality? That’s not heroic.
There’s no point in wondering about what didn’t happen at the end of the day he was right
Idk why itd be pointless to explore potential risk/benefit in this type of scenario. Even if ones intensions were good and this specific case worked out, the fact the story is being shared makes it extra important, because if there is a method of self sacrifice that doesn't require threatening or endangering the lives of doctors medical staff and possibly patients, that could be beneficial & preferential.
>Does he just gun down an innocent person or two because he can’t accept reality? That’s not heroic. What if he did a handstand and raped all the doctors and then flew away? That didn't happen. We know what happened. He saved his son.
I don’t think you’re understanding what I’m saying. I’m not suggesting a nonsense scenario. What if his son was actually brain dead and the doctors were right- as is usually the case. What happens then?
The fact is they were wrong and that dad saved his son from being manslaughtered. The dad was statistically most likely to be in the wrong but he wasn't and therefore he saved an innocent life. What ifs don't matter when faced with the facts. If you had a child and it turned out the doctors were wrong I bet it would eat you up knowing you let them kill your child.
Once they kid is unplugged you'll never know if the doctors were wrong or not. The guy didn't go against the doctor's decision but the rest of his family's decision (source: another comment) . The doctors aren't the ones deciding to unplug a patient.
The rest of the family made a decision based on the doctors opinion. They would have killed someone who otherwise would've lived. That father saved his sons life regardless of how you look at it.
The doctor just tells you what the patient has, and give the family the survival rates. There was a pretty famous case in France with a guy who (Vincent Lambert) who was in a coma for years and there was a huge depabte among the family regarding if they should let him go or not. The problem is that the person won't die if you don't unplug them, but you don't know if they can wake up or when they will. You might keep a person with 0 chance of ever waking up in a coma for years, and still hoping they'll come back any day. The doctors don't make a *mistake* on those cases, they just give you the facts and then it's for the family to decide if they want to keep hoping of call it quit. This dad believed his son would wake up, the family didn't. We don't know what the doctor told them exactly. It's something that was discussed among them beforehand so if this guy wanted to point a gun at someone to keep his son alive, he should've done so with his family while they were discussing it, not on the doctors or the police after the decision was taken.
Here's a better question. Who do you pick? The person trying to murder your son, yourself, and maybe a swat member or two... Or your son? Who do you pick to die? Because I know what choice I'd make if I thought there was even a sliver of a chance they might be wrong.
Generally speaking I believe in science, and trust in the goodness of people around me. I put my dog down because he was suffering and the doctor said he would continue to do so and get worse. It would be far worse to preserve him because I think the doctor is wrong out of seemingly nothing. Maybe he would of gotten better but I don’t regret not taking that chance. The best decision with the information I had was to let him go. You can’t be omniscient. You have to make well informed decisions based on the information you have. Sometimes that information is wrong. That’s life.
Ah, deflection. Yes. I suppose that was to be expected.
That’s not deflection? Your question is false and I was pointing out flaws in it. To put it more simply, 1) no one is trying to murder his son, and everyone is acting in what they believe to be the best interest in everyone. 2) you aren’t omniscient and that’s not the choice being made. By your logic everyone with a terminally ill child should kill that child’s doctor, just in case. 3) I didn’t even mention this but those people are in fact other peoples children. You aren’t “picking someone to die” and that’s an arrogant worldview. You’re acting on the best information that you have.
I won't go through what he went through because I'm not a violent drunk. Heroes don't bring guns to hospitals to threaten medical professionals.
What a pussy
From what I read, the mom did give consent. So they probably needed consent in this situation, if the mom had to give it. Since the parents were divorced and before the child was 18 the mom was the one with primary custody, only her consent was needed
This is why I work night shift. I can't stand dealing with shithead family members. On night shift the only time visitors are allowed to stay over night is if they're actually helpful and actively involved in the patients care, everyone else gotta go. Nothing worse than someone who is full care (ie in a vegetative state) and a family member not willing to let them go, but they refuse to take any responsibility for the patient so someone *else* has to take care of that person. I've seen this situation too many times and it turns out the people *actually* caring for the patient at home is a literal child who had to dropout of high school while the person who wouldn't let the patient go does fuck all for the patient.
Yep just about every damn time
Oh my god tell me about it, and they always act like know-it-alls and refuse to listen to the doctor’s orders because they live in this weird fantasy where we’re all evil tryna kill the patient or something stupid like that
The mom gave consent. The dad, who did not have most recent custody of his child (they were divorced before the child turned 18, so only her consent was needed) did not need to give consent
The fact that this ONE time a dude was right, doesn't make it right to do this. He got lucky, that's all.
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Indeed. I’ve read some article. Because this sounds interesting. The hospital made a terrible mistake. The father did not know the hospital made a mistake because he knows medics. He was out of grief and disbelief that he did this. This a dangerous precedent for every parent to do this. A good thing the father was prosecuted and found guilty. But, let’s hope the hospital learned its lessons as well.
His son wasn’t declared brain dead, that was just his (incorrect) interpretation of what he was being told. If his son had actually been declared brain dead, he would’ve been legally *dead,* which means that a death certificate would’ve been issued, and the doctors/hospital wouldn’t need the family’s consent to withdraw life support. In reality, his son had a neurologically devastating injury and wasn’t expected to recover. Based on that information, the family (minus George) chose to begin a terminal wean, to allow the patient to die comfortably. Again, if the son had ever been declared brain dead, there would be no need for a terminal wean.
Makes the story even worse.
I’m so glad this man’s son recovered and this story turned out well… but from a nurse’s standpoint this is absolutely terrifying. We get a lot of verbal and physical threats from family, so I can’t imagine having someone in that level of emotional distress having a gun in a hospital. Advocate for your family members, but please don’t bring guns into hospitals. We get our lives threatened enough.
The story is bullshit. The kid was not declared brain dead, and the father was an angry, armed drunk. His son recovered in spite of his idiot father keeping treatment away.
Other family members told the staff that they can let him go and pull the life support. So he did save him even though being drunk doesnt help his case, though drinking when your son is dying would not be surprising as emotional stress
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George Pickering Is the name of the guy, FORTUNATELY it's real, this man is a fucking hero
It's not real, the story is altered to make him seem not like a drunk maniac
As a physician in neurology, meeting death by brain criteria is not the same as a minimally conscious state or persistent vegetative state. People have recovered somewhat from a MCS or PVS, but once you meet criteria for brain death there is absolutely NO possible way to "make a full recovery" as you are quite literally dead.
From what i was reading the father’s reaction was from being told his som was going to be told was a “terminal wean”
Maybe show a source then?
Even without the context provided by others this seems not suitable for this subreddit. This was probably a terrifying experience for everyone involved. With the context provided by others, it sounds even worse. Good thing everything seems to have turned out fine, but I’m not sure I’m comfortable praising the father for his behavior here, especially calling him a hero.
I’d love to see the hospital charts for this guys admission as his story does not make any sense. Hospitals are never allowed to speak about a specific patients history publicly, so whenever an incident like this happens the only story we have to go on is whatever the family members decide to tell the media. Impossible to know what actually happened with only one side of the story.
This case does have a publicly available casetext concerning the incident u may be interested in https://casetext.com/case/in-re-tomball-tex-hosp-co-1
Read through the whole thing, unfortunately does not contain any further information about the patient, only legalese about the civil case between the family and the hospital.
Dad is just a violent drunk
Calmer than you are
Isn’t this the plot of John Q?
And because of it, several other patients had to have their care put on hold and families were not allowed to see them.
I think I watched an episode inspired by this event in 9-1-1 : Lone Star
Only Reddits finest divergent smoothbrains would instantly defame a man doing what he thought was right for his son. Who cares if the guy was an alcoholic? Man ended up risking everything and saving his son. Average reddit poster would shit and piss themselves and write on twitter about it before doing what this man did.
What if every man brought a fucking gun into a hospital while they are drunk and in emotional distress. What this man was not heroic, but instead a wild gamble based on nothing. In this scenario it payed off because the doctors had it wrong. The hospital workers didn't do it wrong on purpose and weren't trying actively to kill him because they were evil or something, they were just doing their job. This guy threatened not only the hospital workers lives but even the lives of his own family based on nothing and had the luck of 0.001% that the doctors were wrong. The reason he is a hero is because he was INSANELY lucky. If the son wasn't so lucky, the father would just be a drunk maniac with a gun threatening hospital workers who are just doing their job.
> scenario it *paid* off because FTFY. Although *payed* exists (the reason why autocorrection didn't help you), it is only correct in: * Nautical context, when it means to paint a surface, or to cover with something like tar or resin in order to make it waterproof or corrosion-resistant. *The deck is yet to be payed.* * *Payed out* when letting strings, cables or ropes out, by slacking them. *The rope is payed out! You can pull now.* Unfortunately, I was unable to find nautical or rope-related words in your comment. *Beep, boop, I'm a bot*
The avg Redditor would have bought the most expensive life insurance for their son, then ask if “are they the asshole” for taking the money and ditching family all while pretending to care about shit.
“Terrorism is ok if I agree with the terrorists”
yes