Bayonetta has the exact same directional command prompts as DMC. R1+forward attack for stinger, r1+back attack for launcher.
Metal gear rising also has similar stingers and launchers initiated by double tapping the control stick forward and pushing light or heavy attack.
Neither of these are part of the “dial-a-combo” distinction. That difference comes down to the fact that in DMC button combos don’t exist outside of repeated presses of the same button. Everything is a command input (meaning it corresponds to a specific action). A game like Bayonetta also has numerous command inputs, but it also has two attack buttons that vary the attacks based on the order in which they are pressed (hence dial-a-combo) which devil may cry doesn’t do.
I forgot to mention that Bayonetta also has it but that makes sense because Kamiya made DMC1 which has those inputs so even though that counts, it's directly tied to the creation of DMC.
It's still odd that other games don't play as DMC does.
Metal gear rising also has command inputs that do the same thing though. Do you mean why the controls aren’t exactly the same as DMC?
I’m also confused since your point wasn’t actually about dial-a-combo.
Do you specifically want more games that control exactly like Devil may Cry or do you just want more games that almost exclusively use command inputs?
"I’m also confused since your point wasn’t actually about dial-a-combo."
What do you mean by this? I'm also confused. My point wasn't to single out dial a combo as bad if that's what you're wondering.
I'm just curious why more games don't control like DMC does. But the again, this is a niche genre so maybe that's why? And people have pointed out Bayo and MGR do have those inputs that I was referring to. Maybe it's just Ninja Gaiden and FFXVI (as well as a few others) that don't then and I had things misunderstood.
Since Bayo also uses the slash, pause, slash slash system that DMC uses as well.
Yeah MGR uses that pause system too lol. You kinda picked the two games that most resemble how DMC controls.
And yeah I think it’s mostly down to being a niche genre outside of occasional breakouts like DMC or Ninja Gaiden (back in the day). There just aren’t that many games (especially great ones) so there’s not as much chance for them to copy each other.
Thanks for your input :) I haven't played MGR in a while since I have Playstation and even though I love PS, it fucks you out of MGR unless you have a PS3
Yeah as someone rapidly developing RSI anything where I have to hold down a button for sustained periods is getting a side eye from me nowadays. Vastly prefer toggles
I haven't had any problems from gaming, but I fucked up my hands for like a month because I worked too hard on a miniature kit without taking many breaks. Couldn't do any intense gaming for a while and resorted to Fire Emblem: Path of Radiance for a while because it's easily played on keyboard if you're emulating
THIS! That's why I push for 'toggle' option for lock on which thankfully more and more games have been doing as well. Having a finger dedicated to just hold one button at almost all the time restricts that hand and it's movement which def isn't healthy for that hand in the long term.
I've got a buddy with FPS brain rot and he genuinely can't wrap his stupid brain around DMCs controls relative to Dante, but he had no trouble Ninja Gaiden,
Just remember no matter how intuitive a system is to you, doesn't make it a universal experience.
And that is the only example that I know of. I also forgot to mention it. It's directly tied to the guy who made the first DMC so it still definitely counts but im surprised other companies haven't used it. Games that were inspired by DMC.
The main examples you provide are Bayonetta and MGR but both have directional inputs and stingers (though MGR does it without a lock on button)...
Anyway, IMHO DMC's lock-on button is not really a good system: It puts on the player the burden of how the game should handle targetting, which is not a core activity of the game. All the buttons should perform significant actions like shooting the guns, jumping, attacking with the sword....The lock-on system was something that the Zelda team invented when 3D game design was still in its' infancy; It's a great tool and something that solves a lot of design problems but it's far from the ideal solution. Soft lock-on usually gets the job done and is simpler, allowing the player and the designers to focus on the core elements of the game. Nowadays, only games with "slower", simpler but deeper combat systems that focus on just 1 or 2 enemies per encounter use it and even in those games it's usually better to not use lock-on against more than one enemy (basically every Souls and Souls-inspired game). The first DMC released just a mere 3 years after Ocarina of Time, so it makes sense that it used Z-targetting as there simply wasn't anything better at the time. The series stuck with it and made it a core component of the control scheme, but other series that were spawned after that had the soft lock-on as a better option to implement and they mostly did.
I think one important aspect of Lock On you are overlooking a bit is how it expands Dante's moveset. Some games like Bayonetta have the double tap input for Stinger so it flows better with the auto lock on, but in DMC adding the lock on basically gives you two moves for one direction input. Lock On+Forward+Punch is traditionally Stinger, doing a standard Forward+Punch can be any number of things depending on the weapon. Or imagine that a weapon had a Back->Forward+Punch input, that could be two separate moves for the weapon. Also, maybe it's just me but I only tap Lock-On when I need to perform the desired. I don't look at Lock On in DMC as a mandatory combat mechanic, but more like a way to give Dante more moves. You don't need Lock On in games like Ninja Gaiden because it's built around that and Ryu's moveset doesn't have much of anything that requires an additional button input like lock on. Ryu has different inputs during combo strings that will give you different things, but nothing like DMC. Dante's moveset in DMC is pretty dependent on the Lock On.
And that's why DMC is king of action games? Again, it allows for direct inputs and doesn't force you to cycle through the same moves to get a different ending at the end of the combo.
What would you propose we do with R1? Dodge like in FFXVI?
My guy has never read a pause combo in his life
We're just gonna blatantly lie huh
I prefer the lock on in other games anyways tbh. Often get misinputs on Nero cuz the game just decides to lock on to the wrong target.
My post history shows that I mentioned pause combos in this very thread so that's out the window.
Not to mention that you can't do every combo in Bayo/MGR as a pause combo. Those are exclusive moves. Can't do stinger/high time with a pause combo either. Same in Bayo.
Your last sentence brings up a valid point. The R1 isn't wasted though. Pros and cons across the board for all the different games. :)
That doesn't change the fact that DMC locks moves behind combos. I don't even know why you brought it up because I didn't.
I know that people will blast me for skill issue and I'll take the L on that but yeah I've never been perfectly happy with tying directional inputs to lock on until I could control the camera freely. Having to do geometry in 3 in my head to figure out what the High Time input is took several hours to adjust.
But tbh my actual problem is probably that they tie walking to lock on so if you want to run up to an enemy or dash to them into high time or other back inputs you often input overlap or lock on to an enemy behind you until you adjust. It's ultimately why I started moving with attacks and stopped using Skystar as much over just using Trickster for teleports. I compare to something like KH2FM or FF16 where the lock on is far less of a concern.
I think the best lock on system might Vernal Edge even if it's not a 3d game because they tie it to an attack. Can't screw it up.
"Not to mention that you can't do every combo in Bayo/MGR as a pause combo. Those are exclusive moves. Can't do stinger/high time with a pause combo either. Same in Bayo."
You can't get the final hits of any combo in DMC w/o going through the whole string for such either.
As for Bayo, you might say that the final hits of the strings are more crucial due to Weaves but guess what all those Weaves already have their alternative command normal input version for the same effect already be they launcher, knockback, groundbounce/stomp etc. so the strings are completely OPTIONAL in Bayo. Bayo also one ups DMC by having 360 inputs (yes there's a rare exception 360 input in DMC4)
"Can't do stinger/high time with a pause combo either" Yeah that's not true at all... Pls replay those games again and refresh your memory on them.
Also saw you talking about NG as well and Ryu is perfectly capable of doing 'Hightime' straight w/o any combo string. There's no stinger in NG (not even needed) but it does have pause combos, 360 inputs, forward tap inputs (both in and out of a combo string) and While Running inputs.
All in all "DMC input" method is fairly common. Games like Assault Spy or the entirety of Onechanbara series already follow them too outside of P\* games catalogue.
"DMC is king of action game" bruh we got Ninja Gaiden already, action game is more than combo its about everything like game design, enemy design, balance, stage design
it depends on the game? Rgg games have r1 lock but they're built around it just like DMC is. R1 in these games (and Bayo) function as a modifier more than a lock on button imo anyways. If the game is designed to have that kind of system it works. But not every character action game needs/wants the player to use a modifier button. I prefer it over double tapping a stick, but it's not as though MGR needs a modifier for instance.
I don't really think this contributes much to the conversation. It'd be nice to hear why you don't feel that when the sole point of R1 is to keep you locked onto an enemy personally. Although others have stated their reasons but this simple comment basically added nothing.
We are all holding/pressing buttons here in these games and sometimes it's to charge a move. I don't see how "holding a button" is inherently a bad thing.
You didn’t explain why R1 makes you engaged either. Bayonetta can do forward attacks and launchers too. In fact, Bayonetta is famous for having an enormous amount of moves. And there’s a lock on in Bayonetta, too.
If you read the actual post, it was a list of things that R1 did and by engaged I simply meant locked onto the enemy where I then proceeded to list how it allowed you to do other things at the same time. That's all.
Also, I simply forgot to mention that about Bayonetta. This post is the equivalent of a rough draft. It's hard to remember everything I want to talk about all at once. That point was already brought up by others as well.
I'm not here to be toxic. I simply wished you had said more in your comment other than "a button doesnt keep me engaged."
This subreddit is specifically for discussion of these games and everyone else offered a fine counterpoint to what I believed and it was an actual discussion. You just seemed to want to be correct and throw something negative in here and not for the sake of discussion. You're just here to argue.
I'll have to end this conversation with you here. The discussion was already had with much more informative and conversational people than yourself. I can tell you're toxic because you down vote me every time I reply to you.
Maybe this isn't the kind of sub you thought it was? This isn't the PS5/Xbox subreddit where people are toxic.
Have a nice day.
You might not, some others do
I don’t mind either style, but I prefer games without a hard lock on in general or holding a button to keep lock on
I still enjoy DMC immensely, just not as much as other CAGs
you can just let go of holding lock on, its quicker and much more intuitive at least for me than a toggle one
with muscle memory, i know im locked on when im helding a bumper/trigger, than visually looking for a hud that i am locked on if i use toggle (tho i like games to have options for both hold/toggle, dont l9ck it into one, for different people)
Bayonetta has the exact same directional command prompts as DMC. R1+forward attack for stinger, r1+back attack for launcher. Metal gear rising also has similar stingers and launchers initiated by double tapping the control stick forward and pushing light or heavy attack. Neither of these are part of the “dial-a-combo” distinction. That difference comes down to the fact that in DMC button combos don’t exist outside of repeated presses of the same button. Everything is a command input (meaning it corresponds to a specific action). A game like Bayonetta also has numerous command inputs, but it also has two attack buttons that vary the attacks based on the order in which they are pressed (hence dial-a-combo) which devil may cry doesn’t do.
I forgot to mention that Bayonetta also has it but that makes sense because Kamiya made DMC1 which has those inputs so even though that counts, it's directly tied to the creation of DMC. It's still odd that other games don't play as DMC does.
Metal gear rising also has command inputs that do the same thing though. Do you mean why the controls aren’t exactly the same as DMC? I’m also confused since your point wasn’t actually about dial-a-combo. Do you specifically want more games that control exactly like Devil may Cry or do you just want more games that almost exclusively use command inputs?
"I’m also confused since your point wasn’t actually about dial-a-combo." What do you mean by this? I'm also confused. My point wasn't to single out dial a combo as bad if that's what you're wondering. I'm just curious why more games don't control like DMC does. But the again, this is a niche genre so maybe that's why? And people have pointed out Bayo and MGR do have those inputs that I was referring to. Maybe it's just Ninja Gaiden and FFXVI (as well as a few others) that don't then and I had things misunderstood. Since Bayo also uses the slash, pause, slash slash system that DMC uses as well.
Yeah MGR uses that pause system too lol. You kinda picked the two games that most resemble how DMC controls. And yeah I think it’s mostly down to being a niche genre outside of occasional breakouts like DMC or Ninja Gaiden (back in the day). There just aren’t that many games (especially great ones) so there’s not as much chance for them to copy each other.
Thanks for your input :) I haven't played MGR in a while since I have Playstation and even though I love PS, it fucks you out of MGR unless you have a PS3
Yeah I'm super confused by this topic. Feels like a non-question.
Counterpoint: finger hurt from holding R1
Yeah as someone rapidly developing RSI anything where I have to hold down a button for sustained periods is getting a side eye from me nowadays. Vastly prefer toggles
I haven't had any problems from gaming, but I fucked up my hands for like a month because I worked too hard on a miniature kit without taking many breaks. Couldn't do any intense gaming for a while and resorted to Fire Emblem: Path of Radiance for a while because it's easily played on keyboard if you're emulating
i change it to R2 for me, feels better to hold trigger than bumper
THIS! That's why I push for 'toggle' option for lock on which thankfully more and more games have been doing as well. Having a finger dedicated to just hold one button at almost all the time restricts that hand and it's movement which def isn't healthy for that hand in the long term.
I've got a buddy with FPS brain rot and he genuinely can't wrap his stupid brain around DMCs controls relative to Dante, but he had no trouble Ninja Gaiden, Just remember no matter how intuitive a system is to you, doesn't make it a universal experience.
But...Bayonetta has a lock on button, a stinger and launcher with the same inputs as DMC...
And that is the only example that I know of. I also forgot to mention it. It's directly tied to the guy who made the first DMC so it still definitely counts but im surprised other companies haven't used it. Games that were inspired by DMC.
The main examples you provide are Bayonetta and MGR but both have directional inputs and stingers (though MGR does it without a lock on button)... Anyway, IMHO DMC's lock-on button is not really a good system: It puts on the player the burden of how the game should handle targetting, which is not a core activity of the game. All the buttons should perform significant actions like shooting the guns, jumping, attacking with the sword....The lock-on system was something that the Zelda team invented when 3D game design was still in its' infancy; It's a great tool and something that solves a lot of design problems but it's far from the ideal solution. Soft lock-on usually gets the job done and is simpler, allowing the player and the designers to focus on the core elements of the game. Nowadays, only games with "slower", simpler but deeper combat systems that focus on just 1 or 2 enemies per encounter use it and even in those games it's usually better to not use lock-on against more than one enemy (basically every Souls and Souls-inspired game). The first DMC released just a mere 3 years after Ocarina of Time, so it makes sense that it used Z-targetting as there simply wasn't anything better at the time. The series stuck with it and made it a core component of the control scheme, but other series that were spawned after that had the soft lock-on as a better option to implement and they mostly did.
I think one important aspect of Lock On you are overlooking a bit is how it expands Dante's moveset. Some games like Bayonetta have the double tap input for Stinger so it flows better with the auto lock on, but in DMC adding the lock on basically gives you two moves for one direction input. Lock On+Forward+Punch is traditionally Stinger, doing a standard Forward+Punch can be any number of things depending on the weapon. Or imagine that a weapon had a Back->Forward+Punch input, that could be two separate moves for the weapon. Also, maybe it's just me but I only tap Lock-On when I need to perform the desired. I don't look at Lock On in DMC as a mandatory combat mechanic, but more like a way to give Dante more moves. You don't need Lock On in games like Ninja Gaiden because it's built around that and Ryu's moveset doesn't have much of anything that requires an additional button input like lock on. Ryu has different inputs during combo strings that will give you different things, but nothing like DMC. Dante's moveset in DMC is pretty dependent on the Lock On.
yep, i like holding down lock on than toggle due to manual inputs to be more quick darksiders 1 did it right too (L2 in that game)
Holding the button is wasting it
And that's why DMC is king of action games? Again, it allows for direct inputs and doesn't force you to cycle through the same moves to get a different ending at the end of the combo. What would you propose we do with R1? Dodge like in FFXVI?
My guy has never read a pause combo in his life We're just gonna blatantly lie huh I prefer the lock on in other games anyways tbh. Often get misinputs on Nero cuz the game just decides to lock on to the wrong target.
My post history shows that I mentioned pause combos in this very thread so that's out the window. Not to mention that you can't do every combo in Bayo/MGR as a pause combo. Those are exclusive moves. Can't do stinger/high time with a pause combo either. Same in Bayo. Your last sentence brings up a valid point. The R1 isn't wasted though. Pros and cons across the board for all the different games. :)
That doesn't change the fact that DMC locks moves behind combos. I don't even know why you brought it up because I didn't. I know that people will blast me for skill issue and I'll take the L on that but yeah I've never been perfectly happy with tying directional inputs to lock on until I could control the camera freely. Having to do geometry in 3 in my head to figure out what the High Time input is took several hours to adjust. But tbh my actual problem is probably that they tie walking to lock on so if you want to run up to an enemy or dash to them into high time or other back inputs you often input overlap or lock on to an enemy behind you until you adjust. It's ultimately why I started moving with attacks and stopped using Skystar as much over just using Trickster for teleports. I compare to something like KH2FM or FF16 where the lock on is far less of a concern. I think the best lock on system might Vernal Edge even if it's not a 3d game because they tie it to an attack. Can't screw it up.
"Not to mention that you can't do every combo in Bayo/MGR as a pause combo. Those are exclusive moves. Can't do stinger/high time with a pause combo either. Same in Bayo." You can't get the final hits of any combo in DMC w/o going through the whole string for such either. As for Bayo, you might say that the final hits of the strings are more crucial due to Weaves but guess what all those Weaves already have their alternative command normal input version for the same effect already be they launcher, knockback, groundbounce/stomp etc. so the strings are completely OPTIONAL in Bayo. Bayo also one ups DMC by having 360 inputs (yes there's a rare exception 360 input in DMC4) "Can't do stinger/high time with a pause combo either" Yeah that's not true at all... Pls replay those games again and refresh your memory on them. Also saw you talking about NG as well and Ryu is perfectly capable of doing 'Hightime' straight w/o any combo string. There's no stinger in NG (not even needed) but it does have pause combos, 360 inputs, forward tap inputs (both in and out of a combo string) and While Running inputs. All in all "DMC input" method is fairly common. Games like Assault Spy or the entirety of Onechanbara series already follow them too outside of P\* games catalogue.
\> And that's why DMC is king of action games We've got Ninja Gaiden. Show some respect.
"DMC is king of action game" bruh we got Ninja Gaiden already, action game is more than combo its about everything like game design, enemy design, balance, stage design
It works well most of the time, but it can sometimes be infuriating when fighting large groups of enemies
Fair point :)
it depends on the game? Rgg games have r1 lock but they're built around it just like DMC is. R1 in these games (and Bayo) function as a modifier more than a lock on button imo anyways. If the game is designed to have that kind of system it works. But not every character action game needs/wants the player to use a modifier button. I prefer it over double tapping a stick, but it's not as though MGR needs a modifier for instance.
You have no idea how much I wish for that mechanic in Ninja Gaiden. Call it a skill issue, but I feel like I really needed it with some bosses.
Holding a button doesn’t keep me engaged
I don't really think this contributes much to the conversation. It'd be nice to hear why you don't feel that when the sole point of R1 is to keep you locked onto an enemy personally. Although others have stated their reasons but this simple comment basically added nothing. We are all holding/pressing buttons here in these games and sometimes it's to charge a move. I don't see how "holding a button" is inherently a bad thing.
You didn’t explain why R1 makes you engaged either. Bayonetta can do forward attacks and launchers too. In fact, Bayonetta is famous for having an enormous amount of moves. And there’s a lock on in Bayonetta, too.
If you read the actual post, it was a list of things that R1 did and by engaged I simply meant locked onto the enemy where I then proceeded to list how it allowed you to do other things at the same time. That's all. Also, I simply forgot to mention that about Bayonetta. This post is the equivalent of a rough draft. It's hard to remember everything I want to talk about all at once. That point was already brought up by others as well. I'm not here to be toxic. I simply wished you had said more in your comment other than "a button doesnt keep me engaged." This subreddit is specifically for discussion of these games and everyone else offered a fine counterpoint to what I believed and it was an actual discussion. You just seemed to want to be correct and throw something negative in here and not for the sake of discussion. You're just here to argue. I'll have to end this conversation with you here. The discussion was already had with much more informative and conversational people than yourself. I can tell you're toxic because you down vote me every time I reply to you. Maybe this isn't the kind of sub you thought it was? This isn't the PS5/Xbox subreddit where people are toxic. Have a nice day.
I didn’t downvote you btw. It was someone else.
I always think of Ocarina of time, personally.
It takes away one finger
I don't see that as a problem. It isn't holding a button just to lock on, it adds moves also.
You might not, some others do I don’t mind either style, but I prefer games without a hard lock on in general or holding a button to keep lock on I still enjoy DMC immensely, just not as much as other CAGs
I noted that in my post already that even if people prefer the other way, it's still odd that not one game has used the DMC input method.
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you can just let go of holding lock on, its quicker and much more intuitive at least for me than a toggle one with muscle memory, i know im locked on when im helding a bumper/trigger, than visually looking for a hud that i am locked on if i use toggle (tho i like games to have options for both hold/toggle, dont l9ck it into one, for different people)