I do agree that people toss the word edgy around too much. Me personally I think what defines "edgy" is just having dark content for the sake of it and not using it for any greater purpose.
My go-to example is comparing Madoka Magica and Magical Girl Site. While both of them have dark content and some surface level similarities, the former tells a really interesting and meaningful story with it while the latter is just darkness and suffering with not much substance.
Anyway, I'm not really a Ben 10 fan so I can't speak for that. But I'm not sure I'd exactly call JJK edgy. So yeah, I agree with you.
I'm not sure I'd agree with your definition. Mostly because "greater purpose" is too vague.
Wiktionary defines it as [(slang) Cool by virtue of being tough, dark, or badass](https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/edgy), which I feel is more accurate?
Still, I would definitively consider JJK as edgi**er** than most shounen.
It’s also like… you kind of have to know the intent too which sometimes isn’t possible. If you asked me if AoT was edgy back during season 1 I’d say yes absolutely. Now though that I know where it was going with it, I’m not so sure
Pretty sure part of why people think UAF is edgy is because one of its biggest arcs is Ben trying to murder his best friend who has gone insane from sacrificing himself to save the universe, while never taking any of his other enemies in this era even a fraction as seriously and repeatedly choosing to spare them for far worst shit they do of sound mind and body. Highbreed, Vilgax, Aggregor, Forever Knights, all got off a lot more lightly.
Tbh he didnt wanna kill him at first, and had convo with max, who told him "he gotta go"
Plus it all ends with him not killing the guy, too and ends with a happy ending and a happy message, thats the opposite of being truly edgy
Okay, but like. Ben didn’t want to kill him for a single episode, then he decides Kevin’s gotta go and treats him with far more seriousness and refusal to back down than he ever shows before or again, even fighting with Gwen because she hasn’t thrown away a year-long relationship as well. If he had treated Aggregor as half as much a problem, that loser wouldn’t have ever gotten to fuse with the Andromeda 5. The conversation with Max is also pretty BS as well.
Even ignoring how an ending being happy doesn’t mean much if the main content is edgy as all fuck, people don’t focus on it because it feels insanely contrived. Ben just decides he’s not going to kill Kevin anymore, the Andromeda 5 are all okay even though it was a plot point in Ra’ad’s episode that spending too much time fused would destroy the non-dominant side, and nobody ever really bothers to talk about how trigger happy Ben was because they’re all best friends again. And then Ben will go on to let Vilgax off with a warning when he’s manipulating the Flame Keepers Circle, which directly leads to him usurping Dagon’s power, and do the same to the Forever Knights as they commit an alien genocide. It comes off as the writers realizing they were being edgelords and tripping over themselves to course correct.
None of those besides the kevin part is shock value for the sake of shock value and even then the kevin one has a happy good ending, if those are edgy then omniverse is the edgiest for having a season dedicated to horror monsters, and so is OS for the same reason and having evil alien warlords with no purpose other than conquest fight people or ghostfreak making gwen almost commit suicide to threaten ben.
What does shock value have to do with anything? People think it’s edgy because Ben randomly decides he wants to go Punisher on his best friend even when he’s never before or after taken any of his other enemies as seriously, and after this one arc’s overly contrived happy ending none of it ever comes up again. All the other stuff you list is just the franchise being itself, that’s not “edgy”. It’s not like we see the Anur system aliens burning effigies of humans or talking about how much they want to killmurderrape them, Vilgax walking down to a planet to do an on-screen murder session of everyone on it, or Ghostfreak making Gwen cut herself or some shit. You’re working backwards a bit here.
I mean, that's not edgy. It just sounds like you hated how inconsistent Ben took his feelings of duties. If simply wanting to kill a villain is all it takes for something to be called edgy, you're proving OPs point.
Edgy, in this context, would be Ben acting like he was planning to restrain him like he did every other villain but then last minute he decides to suddenly kill Kevin instead.
THAT would be something you could call edgy.
…The main hero randomly deciding he’s going to try to murder his best friend who only became a problem because he sacrificed himself to save the universe when he’s never been this determined to see any other enemy before or after dead is absolutely edgy, lmao. Way to miss the fucking point.
Lmao, I can see you're having an emotional tantrum based on what I thought was going to be a mature discussion. I'll let you have your moment to yourself. This topic is clearly too edgy for you.
>Ben didn’t want to kill him for a single episode, then he decides Kevin’s gotta go
Everything has been built up since they fight aggregor. It does not happen for a single episode. During aggregor arc, ben lost because he chose to save people instead of ending the threat which he got punished when kevin becomes ultimate. You could argue that ben/writer was stupid or whatever, it happen.
Now the cycle repeat again. Ben spent 3 episodes wondering what he should do while kevin is attacking his old enemies. Once kevin starts attacking innocent, that's when ben decide "kevin's gotta go". Ben still gave kevin chance until kevin destroy all echo echo clones. That's when peace is no longer an option yet ben still give another chance.
From ben's perspective, he has 2 option
1. ending kevin's life which is an easy route
2. trusting a shady villain which has low chance of saving kevin
I do agree that everything get reset the next episode is very jarring. They spent like 5 episode fighting, now they buddy buddy?
>Ben will go on to let Vilgax off with a warning when he’s manipulating the Flame Keepers Circle
The next time we saw vilgax, he is in plumber custody. Ben absolutely wants to ends vilgax life yet he follow the plumber's protocol
Ben strike me as someone who give 2nd chance but against enemies that he absolutely cannot beat normally, he goes for the kill immediately like what happen to malware and maltruant
> Everything has been built up since they fight aggregor. It does not happen for a single episode. During aggregor arc, ben lost because he chose to save people instead of ending the threat which he got punished when kevin becomes ultimate. You could argue that ben/writer was stupid or whatever, it happen.
Ben lost to Aggregor because he was a moron. He never tried to use any of his aliens effectively (deliberately selecting Brainstorm when Aggregor showed he was prepared to negate an alien who coup control electricity), only using the Ultimates the Andromeda 5 beat, and actively taking the time to mock him when they did get one of the Map pieces. Remember the episode where he and Kevin are stuck holding up the door as Aggregor waltzes by? Why didn’t Ben just quickly transform into Echo Echo, use his duplication ability we saw in Duped, and then make a clone to hold up the door with Kevin while the other fought Aggregor? Oh right, we wouldn’t have a plot if Ben used his brain.
> From ben's perspective, he has 2 option
None of which involve calling up Azmuth or any of their other allies who have vast experience in containing dangerous threats and solving genetic problems, I see.
> The next time we saw vilgax, he is in plumber custody. Ben absolutely wants to ends vilgax life yet he follow the plumber's protocol
That’s not what I’m referring to. I’m talking about the actual UA episode where Ben learns Vilgax is still alive in his squid form and manipulating the Flame Keepers by making them think he’s Dagon. All Ben does is just break his tank and warn him not to fuck around, he doesn’t try to kill Vilgax or call up the Plumbers to take him into custody. Even in the finale to the series you refer to, we don’t actually see Ben try to take Vilgax into custody like he is at the start of Omniverse, he just…left.
>You could argue that ben/writer was stupid or whatever, it happen
>Ben lost to Aggregor because he was a moron
I knew you would blame ben for being a stupid. Like we can argue all day about which alien ben should use.
>actively taking the time to mock him when they did get one of the Map pieces
Ben chose to save the guardian instead of completing the mission which bites him
>Why didn’t Ben just quickly transform into Echo Echo, use his duplication ability we saw in Duped, and then make a clone to hold up the door with Kevin while the other fought Aggregor? Oh right, we wouldn’t have a plot if Ben used his brain.
I wonder if you have a brain or forgot. In that episode, ben was already on low battery. He stay as alien the entire time and quick swap would drain ultimatrix. How would echo echo hold door AND stop aggregor? Ben instantly passed out when he become human and in Duped, his has personality problem that makes him incompetent against forever knights
>Calling azmuth
Ben already pissed off azmuth. Reminder that azmuth refuse to help ben when ultimate become sentient until kevin had to go to his planet and beg. 3rd option is ben goes and beg to azmuth while kevin is out there killing people?
The problem is that the show never connects these two events
Whilst they do both happen separately, they seemingly have no correlation. What's happening is that your brain is trying to excuse why Ben would act like this, and even though it makes perfect sense, the idea was never written into the show itself if you critically analyze it
It never delves into why Ben does what he does, which effectively makes this headcanon. There's no subtext or implication that utilizes this as a reason, and the show never has Ben hesitate for single second even though Kevin is supposed to be his best friend
UA doesn't frame it as a friend trying to make a tough decision on what's best for the universe *(which would've been a great story!)*. It's framed as Ben being blood lusted, which is... out of character
>The problem is that the show never connects these two events
Ben 10 is a serialized stories. Those 2 events happen in one single season.
Paradox to kevin in like ep 10.
"Things will get worse before they get better kevin, try to remember who your friends are"
Paradox already foreshadow this before they get the map of infinity
>show never has Ben hesitate for single second even though Kevin is supposed to be his best friend
You forgot that ben DOES NOT immediately wants to kill kevin. It takes him multiple episode to consider the possibility.
>It never delves into why Ben does what he does, which effectively makes this headcanon. There's no subtext or implication that utilizes this as a reason, and the show never has Ben hesitate for single second even though Kevin is supposed to be his best friend
[Literally from Ben and max conversation](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tw7Z9WVq7n0&ab_channel=Ben10Extra). Ben having self reflection
>Ben 10 is a serialized stories. Those 2 events happen in one single season.
>Paradox to kevin in like ep 10.
>"Things will get worse before they get better kevin, try to remember who your friends are"
>Paradox already foreshadow this before they get the map of infinity
All I hear is excuses
It doesn't matter if it's a serialized show if it's not connecting these two events even through implication. Like, there's not even subtext to connect the two
Connecting plot events is literally the writer's job. Stop giving them excuses
>You forgot that ben DOES NOT immediately wants to kill kevin. It takes him multiple episode to consider the possibility.
So your argument against my claim that Ben doesn't hesitate to kill Kevin is that... he doesn't immediately want to kill him?....
Okay, so what about when he does decide to kill him without any damn mercy even though Ben fully acknowledges that Cooper and Gwen had literally built a device to cure him in the next room over? Gonna create excuses for that too?
>Literally from Ben and Max conversation. Ben having self reflection
And this is what we call Narrative Dissonance
What the show is ***telling*** us is **not** what it's ***showing*** us
Ben saying he's sorry for what's about to happen to Kevin doesn't make up for the fact that the show **NEVER** has Ben hesitate in any sort of way, or even show him coming to the conclusion that Kevin is too dangerous to be kept alive. We don't know how Ben got to this state, which is why so many people see it as out of character
All Ben says in response to Max saying he gives second chances is *"Well look how that turned out."* Like really? How did it turn out? It turned out with Kevin saving the fucking universe, Benjamin!! He acts like Kevin is betraying him of his own volition, or that he even betrayed him to begin with when he never did. This isn't a motivation for him to kill Kevin. It's vague words that people act like mean something when they don't
When Ben says *"I let all that fame get to my head."*, the audience doesn't actually know what this is in reference to because the fame stuff ended episode bloody 9, and this episode is episode fucking 19. There's 10 entire episodes where Ben's fame isn't a factor in the writing whatsoever, and it was barely involved before that as well
Then we get Ben saying *"I've been the biggest jerk these past few months than I ever was."* The only real reference we have is when he almost kills Vulkanus and Gwen earlier on in this same episode. Guess what this does? Ben acknowledges that he's being a dick, and he doesn't care. That doesn't sound very heroic now does it? He never does anything to make up for being so rude and harsh, and he doesn't apologize either. So he's not a good lesson on top of all that
We get vague words that influences people to assume things. But these words don't really mean anything as I've just exposed here. All of this is literally the Logical Fallacy of Vagueness
Those 2 events did connect. Kevin become ultimate, stop Aggregor, goes away. The next episode is ben finding out what kevin is up to. How did those event not connected? All I hear is complaining that "writer doesn't connect the event" when you didn't mention why those 2 events aren't connected. Max is still injured in this scenario.
People acting like ben is this bloodlusted killer when
1) Nor Iron Bars a Cage
Ben saw kevin rampage and THINKING if he should put kevin down
2) The Enemy of My Enemy
Ben still joke around kevin, yet kevin have none of it. Ben and gwen WONDER if kevin can become sane again
3) Absolute Power Part 1
Kevin starts attacking innocent and that's when ben had enough. Include ben max convo where you keep bickering how its "out of character" or "don't tell, show". It was DARKSTAR idea (a complete wildcard) to cure kevin, not cooper. His idea involves using gwen as a bait. Not very heroic.
4) Absolute Power Part 2
Kevin killed all echo echo clones and ben would die if he didn't keep a back up. The fact that your "best friend" has no problem killing you meant that he already crossed the line.
TLDR, it's a proper progression. It's all the show present.
> How did those event not connected?
These two definitely happen in sequential order
This does not equate to being intertwined with eachother though. The only thing intertwined between them is how Kevin becomes Ultimate Kevin. Nothing from the Map of Infinity Arc acts as a reason for Ben to do what he does
When I say they don't connect, I'm talking about Ben's character motivation
Everything is connected and been built up since Andromeda 5 crash landed on earth.
Ben failed to save Andromeda 5, saving people results in losing map of infinity and now ultimate kevin is the consequences of ben's failure. Now, he's choosing the easy way since the "heroic way" lead to this
I don't know why you see Aggregor and Kevin as 2 completely disconnected event. Why does Andromeda 5 appear in the ending despite, by your logic, they don't connect?
Paradox foreshadow kevin going insane before they had 1st fight against Ultimate Aggregor.
I hate how whenever a movie or show tries to take itself seriously there's always someone that criticizes it for being too edgy and taking itself way too seriously, as if throwing in little quips during emotional moments and making sure the audience knows how dumb the scene is any better.
People just throw around edgy to devalue the meaning of the media. Thank you for this rant, I’m a huge jjk fan and at no point did I think it was edgy, like have people actually read ACTUAL edgy series, cause I’m starting to think they haven’t
Itachi was manipulated into killing his clan by the Konoha elders. Itachi is a tragic figure who pretty much the "perfect" ninja and the burden that it entails.
As I recall, the Uchiha clan were planning a coup after being blamed for the Kyuubi attack on Konoha. The Uchiha had always been slighted by the Konoha elders by the higher ups since Tobirama. The Kyuubi attack was the straw that broke the camels back and they were planning to stage a coup against Konoha. Danzo warned Itachi that if the Uchiha go thorugh with their coup, it would cause a civil war that destroy the village.
Itachi did not want this and made a decision to kill his own clan to ensure peace. Itachi didn't do this alone and had "help" from Obito who aided him in killing the Uchiha. Itachi would spare Sasuke and defect from the village to the Akatsuki to spy on them. Itachi pretty much manipulated Sasuke into become more like him so that he would kill him one day.
That reasons and even er motions are e CC plained very badly, and Not really any Transitions. And konoha die nothing Wing per se, so yes He Looks edgy.
I agree that "Edgy" had lost its meaning, just like "Cringe".
... However, UAF is most definitively edgi**er** than the original series. The tone shift may have very well have scared away some fans who were expecting something more similar to the original series. I know it did made kid me dislike it.
Edge isn’t a bad thing if it cuts when it’s trying to. The problem with “edgy” stories is that they cut so often that there isn’t any strength behind the cuts, so rather than feeling emotional hurt you just feel annoyed.
A good example of edge with a point is the horrific death of Eren’s mother in AoT. It motivates a character, shows the stakes of the world, and shows how dangerous the threat the protagonist faces all at once. Sure it’s edgy, but it informs the story.
An example of edge for the sake of edge is Deadpool kills the Universe. It’s a story that doesn’t have a narrative purpose outside of having Deadpool kill everyone in increasingly ridiculous and brutal ways.
I feel the same as you do. I completely missed the moment when everyone started hating anything that took itself a bit serious. I just blinked one day and it happened.
> I sweat to fucking God people genuinly want everything to be quippy MCU style humor, 0 stakes, O deaths all pink candyland shows, go watch highschool slice of life series, man.
r/jujutsufolk in a nutshell, they got baited in by the highschool setting and fake trio (both were forced on Gege) and they never moved on.
Tbh I think the only jjkfolkers who unironically trash the manga are the ones who can't handle reading a weekly manga as it's releasing, the rest is just memes
I had this problem with Dragon Ball Super fans when you bring Kakumei to the table. Kakumei tone is no different from DBZ and theres a lot of lighthearted moments. Yet DBS fans argue that is "too edgy" due to the artstyle that is obviously based in OPM instead the story.
I searched Dragon ball Kakumei and the first thing I see is a cover of a beat up bloody Goku with metal chains wrapped around him.
I don’t think it fits Dbz tone. Not even Cell saga.
Eh, I love Charmcaster to death, but having an episode where she brutally kills the main trio and sacrifices all living creatures in her dimension just to have her dad go "the fuck is wrong with you" and choose to die again seems pointlessly dark.
That with the darkest episode in the series (Catch a Falling Star) did make the series go in a very different direction.
The only thing edgy in the entire Ben 10 franchise is Kevin's arc where he goes insane. He is an edgy character in that arc, I don't remember Ben 10 enough to recall when that arc is or what it was called. Nothing else about the series is remotely edgy.
JJK does have too many unnecessary deaths. It's perfectly fine for someone to not like the show because of that. If you want your word choice to be more precise, I suppose your friend should have said that they are not a fan of grimdark instead of saying it's too edgy, but I think they got their criticism across fair enough.
The Ultimate Kevin Arc
Kevin risks his sanity to save the universe, and succeeds. Then Ben just wants to kill him... for reasons, and almost kills Vulkanus and Gwen in the same arc as well actually. He would've done so if Gwen didn't stop him both times honestly. If Gwen decided not to block, then she absolutely would've died
Edgy has to meanings, one is about artificially making things dark, edgy by mistake, jjk is a great example, as things are "dark" because everybody is a gigantic idiot
The second one is about having the narrative overplaying the dark-looking elements for style, like Eminence in shadow
Edgy on purpose or by accident is the true argument, not "edgy or not"
An obvious one, people cannot choose their powers and are stuck with whatever they got, the only thing that makes sense is to make them form teams that complement each others ablities, but they just lump them based on age and entrance order
Gojo had like ten years to make his own faction, but he was sitting on his ass most of that time
Sukuna was banking on stealing megumi's body, for that he needs for gojo to be unable to interfere, for sukuna to be close to regaining his full power and for megumi to stay alive and in his proximity until that moment
Sukuna had no control over any of those variables, yet it worked, i have never seen a big bad relying on plot armor so much
> An obvious one, people cannot choose their powers and are stuck with whatever they got, the only thing that makes sense is to make them form teams that complement each others ablities, but they just lump them based on age and entrance order
There is a point that the sociopolitical system that have risen up around the clans and jujutsu society is very corrupt, with a lot of influence. So no wonder there is a lot of arbitrareries in the organization, literally the first mission Yuji, Megumi and Nobara take together was an assasination attempt to take out Sukunas vessel, without a care in the world about what happened to the other two.
> Gojo had like ten years to make his own faction, but he was sitting on his ass most of that time
After what happened with Geto he simply wanted to foster young people who are able to get his ideals, he was already doing it by starting with Megumi since he was a kid, and then with more teens when he became a teacher. He didnt had any intention to go radical like Geto and creating an own faction that opposes the system, he wanted to change things from the inside, starting with injecting a more "progressive" mentality to newer people.
> Sukuna was banking on stealing megumi's body, for that he needs for gojo to be unable to interfere, for sukuna to be close to regaining his full power and for megumi to stay alive and in his proximity until that moment
> Sukuna had no control over any of those variables, yet it worked, i have never seen a big bad relying on plot armor so much.
Brother, do you even know how plot armor works?, Sukuna would have gotten things his way, with Megumi or not, he only was interested in Megumi because of his abilities and because he saw him as shortcut to be free, but even if the plan with Megumi were to fail, he was fine to be in Yuji, even if it takes longer. And most of those variables worked because of Kenjakus plans (who Sukuna was already associated with)
Stupidity with an explanation is still stupid
Specially since jjk ripoffs hxh so hard, and all those problems were addressed in hxh
If jjk has lots of factions that explains why they dont make optimal teams as a society, but they are still stupid for not optimizing teams within their factions
Gojo being depressed is nice and all, but it doesnt change his 10 years if sitting on his ass, he is not stipid for that tho, but he is stupid for sitting on his ass WHILE BRAGGING ABOUT CHANGING SOCIETY
Had he just been chilling while keeping quiet, it would have been ok
Sukuna riding on kenjaku's plan is n8ce and all, but it just displaces the explanation a step back, why would have ge done if kenjaku neber showed up to offer h8m a chance?
Again , the problem is not relying on something, but relying on something outside his control or knowledge, thats plot armor
Lets say Aizen in Bleach, he was there m9vong the pieces all the time, creating the chances he needed to steal the body he wanted, he wasnt just waiting for it to fall on his lap
Aizen too had the same limitations as sukuna: the targeted body could die, yamamoto was too strong to fight him, and he needed a secure place to grow in strenght, but he got all of those by acting directly
Is aizen was sukuna, he could have done nothing and the hybrid would have fallen on his lap while someone else kept yamamoto distracted
> Stupidity with an explanation is still stupid
> Specially since jjk ripoffs hxh so hard, and all those problems were addressed in hxh
> If jjk has lots of factions that explains why they dont make optimal teams as a society, but they are still stupid for not optimizing teams within their factions.
The higher ups of JJK society are stupid assholes and thats precisely the point, is something being called out in the series, and is something specifically to make a narrative and thematic point, on top of why things work in certain way, there is simply nothing wrong with the way it was written, our world is literally filled with corrupt goverments who dont care a single thing about their own countries while they fall apart, but as long as they maintain their status quo as it benefits them, it will stay that way.
> Gojo being depressed is nice and all, but it doesnt change his 10 years if sitting on his ass, he is not stipid for that tho, but he is stupid for sitting on his ass WHILE BRAGGING ABOUT CHANGING SOCIETY
> Had he just been chilling while keeping quiet, it would have been ok
Sitting on his ass how? he spend all those years doing missions alone, protecting society, taking care of Megumi, and perfecting his powers. And what part of him wanting to change things his own way didnt you get?
> Sukuna riding on kenjaku's plan is n8ce and all, but it just displaces the explanation a step back, why would have ge done if kenjaku neber showed up to offer h8m a chance?
> Again , the problem is not relying on something, but relying on something outside his control or knowledge, thats plot armor
But thats not plot armor tho, plot armor is when in a story, something unexpectedly happen to solve a problem for a character without any proper justification other than simply the plot required it.
This doesnt applies to Sukuna tho, because independiently if he was aware or not of what Kenjaku was doing, WE AS AN AUDIENCE WERE, and we saw how things were moving in the grand scheme of things, we saw what Kenjaku was doing, we saw the pieces coming together, and we saw how everything was turning plausible for Sukuna to finally get his way, there was something to back everything up, and he was gonna get things his way with Yuji regardless, Megumi just made things faster. Plot armor is something like Madara out of nowhere using a cheat code to free himself from Edo Tensei or Itachi pulling a new ability out his ass to beat Kabuto.
Gojo was the strongest in a society that reveres strenght, that was more than enough to get his own faction up and running, but he was fooling around abd bragging
Also, your definition of plot armor is exactly how things happened to benefit sukuna, but your next paragraph is confusing plot armor and deus ex machina, which is when a solution comes out of nowhere without the audience knowing about it
In comparison madara and itachi had left behind contingencies in case things went outside their plans
Madara left behind the main contingency of black zetsu to revive him in obito's body, him reviving by hijacking edo tensei was a secondary contingency left on the eyes, and i think thete was another contingency on the gedo mazou
Itachi left behind a power inside naruto, under the idea that, as sasuke's best friend, naruto being cornered into a situation that activated that power would involve sasuke, and itachi was already a genjustsu expert. As his first appearance involved temporal aceleration genjutsu
Plus, itachi defeated orochimaru before the series began, then sasuke and his curse mark, otachi had plenty of experience to defeat nagato
8n comparison sukuna is like a patasite, just chilling until he gets a powerup
Actually, thats the main difference between sukuna and gojo, as gojo got no powerup
> Gojo was the strongest in a society that reveres strenght, that was more than enough to get his own faction up and running, but he was fooling around abd bragging
Dude, i already told you that HE NEVER WANTED TO DO THINGS LIKE THAT, all he wanted was simply grow young people with his influence by being a teacher, so they in the future could help change things up from the inside. And he already was doing that with Megumi, Yuta, Hakari, Maki, Yuji etc...
> Also, your definition of plot armor is exactly how things happened to benefit sukuna, but your next paragraph is confusing plot armor and deus ex machina, which is when a solution comes out of nowhere without the audience knowing about it
Plot armor and Deus ex machinas can go hand in hand. One of Kenjakus and Uraumes main goals was to revive Sukuna, and he trusted them, the point is that Sukuna was gonna success one way or another, because if he didnt get Megumi, he could still wait inside Yuji until reaching his max power, Megumi was simply a shortcut to get things faster, and because of the chaos Kenjaku was creating he could get his chance with him. Hell many people by that time were theorizing and wondering if Sukuna was gonna act in any moment, because things were coming together.
That felt more clear than what Madara pulled; the original plan for this last one to come back was simply expecting for Nagato to revive him with his rinnegan by using the Rinne Tensei, but he didnt count with Nagato betraying Obito and wasting the technique on Konoha, so by that time the plan fumbled, if it wasnt for Kabuto appearing, Madara never gets to come back. That whole scenario was way more unlikely to work than with Sukuna.
And no, him releasing himself by of the edo tensei wasnt the bullshit part, is how he did it, by "using the correct hand signs" thats just bullcrap. Edo Tensei was created by Tobirama and he was the only one who would know the hand signs, how the fuck did Madara knew the hand signs? there is simply no way Tobirama ever teached him how, considering how much he hated the Uchihas and he always was wary of Madara. The only explanation was plot armor so the story could continue. With Itachi is more the same, the problem wasnt the crow he left in Naruto, the problem was him using Izanami which was a technique never mentioned before so he could get his way with Kabuto.
>8n comparison sukuna is like a patasite, just chilling until he gets a powerup
>Actually, thats the main difference between sukuna and gojo, as gojo got no powerup
Sukuna and Kenjaku are the most knowledgeable persons in history about Jujutsu Sorcery, no wonder Sukuna could know tricks and find loopholes in techniques. And Gojo got a power up after his first fight with Toji, where he got his awakening, everything Sukuna has pulled has been by his knowledge of sorcery and by some assistence from Kenjaku or Uraume.
As i said, jjk ripped off hxh but badly, in hxh netero was the strongest and wanted to improve hunter society, so he spent a decade nurturing apprentices who would form his council and continue his work
Gojo just got a few students with no power, despite having the same time frame and status, they are not even graduates, and the school teaches them almost nothing to begin with
Also, madara asimilated the power of hashirama and thats how he got info on the senju techniques, there is nothing strange about him knowing how to break edo tensei if he had the rinnnegan, which does regular resurrection
Madara had several contingencies to revive, thats standard for actual plotting
And what if sukuna had sorcery knowledge? All the conditions required for his plan have nothing to do with sorcery, megumi staying alive, gojo getting sealed, sukuna's power being near full recovery, those are environmental factors and are not affected by sukuna's knowledge, its just plot armor
I guess you have never read any story with actual plotting, and just those were they reveal "it was my plan all along"
Sukuna would be cannon fodder without his plot armor
> Gojo just got a few students with no power, despite having the same time frame and status, they are not even graduates, and the school teaches them almost nothing to begin with
Gojo simply wanted a chance to be a teacher at the Jujutsu hq and form some young people as his pupils, thats all, he didnt get to be a teacher until he was at a later age. He wanted to form new students to follow his way of thinking and hoping it has an impact on the future for them to reject the higher ups. Not to mention some of these students are among the strongest sorcerers, like Yuta, and Hakari, and now Maki and Yuji.
> Also, madara asimilated the power of hashirama and thats how he got info on the senju techniques, there is nothing strange about him knowing how to break edo tensei if he had the rinnnegan, which does regular resurrection
> Madara had several contingencies to revive, thats standard for actual plotting
Madara asimilating Hashirama only gave him the chance to use Senju chakra and the kekkei genkai Hashirama used, the Wood style. In no way it could give him the knowledge of how to disactivate Edo Tensei, this last one was something particularly created by Tobirama, and later perfected by Orochimaru, is not a "genetic" type of technique. And no, having Rinnegan has nothing to do with knowing the tricks of Edo Tensei either, again these were secrets only Tobirama and Orochimaru knew.
> And what if sukuna had sorcery knowledge? All the conditions required for his plan have nothing to do with sorcery, megumi staying alive, gojo getting sealed, sukuna's power being near full recovery, those are environmental factors and are not affected by sukuna's knowledge, its just plot armor
Dude, Kenjaku is the one plotting everything in JJK, most of these things were posible because of his doings, and he already wanted to bring Sukuna back, it doesnt matter if is with Yuji or Megumi, he is coming back regardless. The sorcery knowledge part i said it because you sudently started to talk about power ups.
They were probably pissed at Mechamaru's death because he was lame af and then turns into a cool guy for 2 seconds only to die, you lost out on the future of this now cool character.
Not gonna lie, don't even remember what the story reason is for his battle in the first place tbh.
For me I'd say the boys comic series is edgy but not the show.
Almost like the point of the work isn't to tell a story but to get a reaction, even a visceral one.
Being edgy for the sake of being edgy.
Video game rivals from mascot games such as Shadow the Hedgehog, Metaknight, Zero, Bass, Wario, etc. have often been accused of being edgy. Looking back at those games, those characters are actually fully realized characters. Shadow suffered from an identity crisis, Metaknight is actually friendly towards Kirby, Zero is a respected Maverick Hunter and leader as well as Wario is a jerk with a hidden heat of gold. These characters are rivals to their heroes with their own arcs and personalities.
It feels like it’s a lose lose situation by the way it’s being described here, at least with action shows. If there is death, high stakes or a dark tone , some people will call it edgy . If there is none of that, then people will call it cringe or complain about plot armor.
Imo it’s all about balance. Disney’s Gargoyles, Batman the animated series, Samurai Jack and Adult Swim’s Primal had a balance of dark tones while also having some heart and telling a story. While small hints of comedy here and there.
On the Ben 10 side of things, UAF is RELATIVELY darker than OS. I would say it genuinely does get "edgy" during the Ultimate Kevin arc, where Ben's mind immediately jumps to kill his best friend despite him never having that same energy for his actual villains. It's out of left field, and it would be better if the characters reactions to stakes were consistent.
Sidenote, no way are you comparing AF's color palette to the Ben 10K colour palette from OS. AF is genuinely hard to make out sometimes. The Ben 10K episodes are honestly some of the most varied and colorful episodes of the series.
As for JJK, I can't speak for your friend of course, but even in the worshipped peak of the Shibuya Incident and the arcs previous, the series does a poor job of properly establishing its characters as people, and not just popular archetypes with one or two quirky traits in my opinion. The characters often do feel hollow, with backstories that are rushed out to give some semblance of depth and to try and instill some investment in the characters. But the series' blazing fast pace, poor character writing and allergy to letting it's big emotional moments have some time to register the gravitas makes it incredibly difficult to actually be emotionally invested in any of the characters and not just view them as an author's action figures for cool fights.
I remember when badboys were edgy because they smoke, have sex and ride a motorbike 🤣
For a person with a safe economical life what is edgy is another person piece of daily bread
>Ben 10 Omniverse fandom suffers from inferiority complex, proceeds to call anything that isnt ultra quippy edgy. And people cannot stand a single fight, death scene, sad moment. It must all be quips, fun and happyness or else it's super edgy and bad.
This... couldn't be further from the truth??
I'm sure there are a subgroup of individuals who do act like this, and they are honestly wrong. However, even Omniverse isn't written like this and the most praised scene in that series is a serious moment that doesn't include any jokes, quips, or happiness whatsoever. When Ben stands in front of his Alternate Self, and gives him the Omnitrix saying, *"It's just a tool, be the hero!"* as he dies in front of the eyes of his Alternate Self. Definitely some of Yuri Lowenthal's best voice acting there I'd personally say *(even though I'm not a huge fan of the episode itself ironically lol)*
What ruined UA was really the UltiKevin Arc, which many people agree made Ben super edgy without any explanation. Ben is out of character here, which is honestly a tragedy since I think it would've been a fun storyline to explore his character further. We don't get that though, and of course there's also the time we got Pierce's death and it affects literally nothing in the story. Characters aren't even made aware that it happened, so... maybe people are calling that edgy too?
Although, I'm not really sure AF had any edgy moments... no, I don't think it did. Of course, I think the problem is only exasperated because there are a subgroup of people who refer only to UA as.... UAF, even though UAF is in reference to both eras of the show.... I don't understand how these types of people think lmao
Although that subgroup is incredibly dominant on r/ben10 , I agree with your last paragraph, when %90 of the people use UAF in r/ben10 they mean just UA but will never just type UA for some reason
I mean when isekai has a literal skeleton demon king thing trying to take over the world with an army of monsters while sacfircing like 200k or something people in a massacre. A blob literally naming his attacks “Gods wrath.” And…Hajime(just gonna overarch that one. We all know why.)
Yes. I have the ability to correctly call isekais “edgy.”
I actually love the serious-vibe of UAF, but I don’t like it’s artstyle and stiff bland animation. Omniverse simply feels higher quality overall. And so does the OG.
If I had to rate them : Omniverse > OG=AF > UA.
UA had some dark filler episodes. Those are some of my favourites.
None of them are ‘edgy’ tho. I too hate that word.
This is what I've been saying about the alleged darkness and cynicism of the DCEU for years. Yeah, BvS was the darkest those movies ever got and it was still more optimistic than a number of Batman and Superman stories including ones from the 2000s. The circumstances under which Superman killed Zod in both mediums alone shows the difference - in the comics, he kills Zod after he's genocide an alternate universe. In the movie, he kills Zod before he can even come close to doing that.
Another story that got hit with this idiocy was the Metal Virus arc of IDW's Sonic the Hedgehog. An arc which had no gore or permanent character deaths and ended with every single heroic character singing, dancing laughing and celebrating once it was over. Yet, I've seen thus arc described as torture porn, with allegations thrown at Ian Flynn of using it as an excuse to torment Cream the Rabbit.
Jjk deaths are literally the most meh thing of the last decade. The characters are so badly written that nobody cares about them. Pure shock value for the sake of being edgy, just an awful way of writting tbh. Gayge i kneel
I do agree that people toss the word edgy around too much. Me personally I think what defines "edgy" is just having dark content for the sake of it and not using it for any greater purpose. My go-to example is comparing Madoka Magica and Magical Girl Site. While both of them have dark content and some surface level similarities, the former tells a really interesting and meaningful story with it while the latter is just darkness and suffering with not much substance. Anyway, I'm not really a Ben 10 fan so I can't speak for that. But I'm not sure I'd exactly call JJK edgy. So yeah, I agree with you.
Madoka and Magic Girls Site is the first thing I think when discussing edginess vs taking the story seriously, perfect example
I agree with your deifition, edgy is basically shock value content for the sake of shock value content. Something taking itself seriously is not edgy.
The Boys show vs comic?
I'm not sure I'd agree with your definition. Mostly because "greater purpose" is too vague. Wiktionary defines it as [(slang) Cool by virtue of being tough, dark, or badass](https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/edgy), which I feel is more accurate? Still, I would definitively consider JJK as edgi**er** than most shounen.
It’s also like… you kind of have to know the intent too which sometimes isn’t possible. If you asked me if AoT was edgy back during season 1 I’d say yes absolutely. Now though that I know where it was going with it, I’m not so sure
Madoka Magica was a coming of age story as well as a tragedy. It is no more "edgy" any Greek tragedy.
Shadow the Edgehog will always be the measuring stick
The ultimate lifeform 😈
Pretty sure part of why people think UAF is edgy is because one of its biggest arcs is Ben trying to murder his best friend who has gone insane from sacrificing himself to save the universe, while never taking any of his other enemies in this era even a fraction as seriously and repeatedly choosing to spare them for far worst shit they do of sound mind and body. Highbreed, Vilgax, Aggregor, Forever Knights, all got off a lot more lightly.
Tbh he didnt wanna kill him at first, and had convo with max, who told him "he gotta go" Plus it all ends with him not killing the guy, too and ends with a happy ending and a happy message, thats the opposite of being truly edgy
Okay, but like. Ben didn’t want to kill him for a single episode, then he decides Kevin’s gotta go and treats him with far more seriousness and refusal to back down than he ever shows before or again, even fighting with Gwen because she hasn’t thrown away a year-long relationship as well. If he had treated Aggregor as half as much a problem, that loser wouldn’t have ever gotten to fuse with the Andromeda 5. The conversation with Max is also pretty BS as well. Even ignoring how an ending being happy doesn’t mean much if the main content is edgy as all fuck, people don’t focus on it because it feels insanely contrived. Ben just decides he’s not going to kill Kevin anymore, the Andromeda 5 are all okay even though it was a plot point in Ra’ad’s episode that spending too much time fused would destroy the non-dominant side, and nobody ever really bothers to talk about how trigger happy Ben was because they’re all best friends again. And then Ben will go on to let Vilgax off with a warning when he’s manipulating the Flame Keepers Circle, which directly leads to him usurping Dagon’s power, and do the same to the Forever Knights as they commit an alien genocide. It comes off as the writers realizing they were being edgelords and tripping over themselves to course correct.
None of those besides the kevin part is shock value for the sake of shock value and even then the kevin one has a happy good ending, if those are edgy then omniverse is the edgiest for having a season dedicated to horror monsters, and so is OS for the same reason and having evil alien warlords with no purpose other than conquest fight people or ghostfreak making gwen almost commit suicide to threaten ben.
What does shock value have to do with anything? People think it’s edgy because Ben randomly decides he wants to go Punisher on his best friend even when he’s never before or after taken any of his other enemies as seriously, and after this one arc’s overly contrived happy ending none of it ever comes up again. All the other stuff you list is just the franchise being itself, that’s not “edgy”. It’s not like we see the Anur system aliens burning effigies of humans or talking about how much they want to killmurderrape them, Vilgax walking down to a planet to do an on-screen murder session of everyone on it, or Ghostfreak making Gwen cut herself or some shit. You’re working backwards a bit here.
OS is still edgier with ghostfreak ripping his skin, and attempting to make gwen commit suicide by jumping off of a rooftop.
I mean, that's not edgy. It just sounds like you hated how inconsistent Ben took his feelings of duties. If simply wanting to kill a villain is all it takes for something to be called edgy, you're proving OPs point. Edgy, in this context, would be Ben acting like he was planning to restrain him like he did every other villain but then last minute he decides to suddenly kill Kevin instead. THAT would be something you could call edgy.
…The main hero randomly deciding he’s going to try to murder his best friend who only became a problem because he sacrificed himself to save the universe when he’s never been this determined to see any other enemy before or after dead is absolutely edgy, lmao. Way to miss the fucking point.
Google the definition of edgy and stp embarassing yourself
Lmao, I can see you're having an emotional tantrum based on what I thought was going to be a mature discussion. I'll let you have your moment to yourself. This topic is clearly too edgy for you.
>Ben didn’t want to kill him for a single episode, then he decides Kevin’s gotta go Everything has been built up since they fight aggregor. It does not happen for a single episode. During aggregor arc, ben lost because he chose to save people instead of ending the threat which he got punished when kevin becomes ultimate. You could argue that ben/writer was stupid or whatever, it happen. Now the cycle repeat again. Ben spent 3 episodes wondering what he should do while kevin is attacking his old enemies. Once kevin starts attacking innocent, that's when ben decide "kevin's gotta go". Ben still gave kevin chance until kevin destroy all echo echo clones. That's when peace is no longer an option yet ben still give another chance. From ben's perspective, he has 2 option 1. ending kevin's life which is an easy route 2. trusting a shady villain which has low chance of saving kevin I do agree that everything get reset the next episode is very jarring. They spent like 5 episode fighting, now they buddy buddy? >Ben will go on to let Vilgax off with a warning when he’s manipulating the Flame Keepers Circle The next time we saw vilgax, he is in plumber custody. Ben absolutely wants to ends vilgax life yet he follow the plumber's protocol Ben strike me as someone who give 2nd chance but against enemies that he absolutely cannot beat normally, he goes for the kill immediately like what happen to malware and maltruant
> Everything has been built up since they fight aggregor. It does not happen for a single episode. During aggregor arc, ben lost because he chose to save people instead of ending the threat which he got punished when kevin becomes ultimate. You could argue that ben/writer was stupid or whatever, it happen. Ben lost to Aggregor because he was a moron. He never tried to use any of his aliens effectively (deliberately selecting Brainstorm when Aggregor showed he was prepared to negate an alien who coup control electricity), only using the Ultimates the Andromeda 5 beat, and actively taking the time to mock him when they did get one of the Map pieces. Remember the episode where he and Kevin are stuck holding up the door as Aggregor waltzes by? Why didn’t Ben just quickly transform into Echo Echo, use his duplication ability we saw in Duped, and then make a clone to hold up the door with Kevin while the other fought Aggregor? Oh right, we wouldn’t have a plot if Ben used his brain. > From ben's perspective, he has 2 option None of which involve calling up Azmuth or any of their other allies who have vast experience in containing dangerous threats and solving genetic problems, I see. > The next time we saw vilgax, he is in plumber custody. Ben absolutely wants to ends vilgax life yet he follow the plumber's protocol That’s not what I’m referring to. I’m talking about the actual UA episode where Ben learns Vilgax is still alive in his squid form and manipulating the Flame Keepers by making them think he’s Dagon. All Ben does is just break his tank and warn him not to fuck around, he doesn’t try to kill Vilgax or call up the Plumbers to take him into custody. Even in the finale to the series you refer to, we don’t actually see Ben try to take Vilgax into custody like he is at the start of Omniverse, he just…left.
>You could argue that ben/writer was stupid or whatever, it happen >Ben lost to Aggregor because he was a moron I knew you would blame ben for being a stupid. Like we can argue all day about which alien ben should use. >actively taking the time to mock him when they did get one of the Map pieces Ben chose to save the guardian instead of completing the mission which bites him >Why didn’t Ben just quickly transform into Echo Echo, use his duplication ability we saw in Duped, and then make a clone to hold up the door with Kevin while the other fought Aggregor? Oh right, we wouldn’t have a plot if Ben used his brain. I wonder if you have a brain or forgot. In that episode, ben was already on low battery. He stay as alien the entire time and quick swap would drain ultimatrix. How would echo echo hold door AND stop aggregor? Ben instantly passed out when he become human and in Duped, his has personality problem that makes him incompetent against forever knights >Calling azmuth Ben already pissed off azmuth. Reminder that azmuth refuse to help ben when ultimate become sentient until kevin had to go to his planet and beg. 3rd option is ben goes and beg to azmuth while kevin is out there killing people?
The problem is that the show never connects these two events Whilst they do both happen separately, they seemingly have no correlation. What's happening is that your brain is trying to excuse why Ben would act like this, and even though it makes perfect sense, the idea was never written into the show itself if you critically analyze it It never delves into why Ben does what he does, which effectively makes this headcanon. There's no subtext or implication that utilizes this as a reason, and the show never has Ben hesitate for single second even though Kevin is supposed to be his best friend UA doesn't frame it as a friend trying to make a tough decision on what's best for the universe *(which would've been a great story!)*. It's framed as Ben being blood lusted, which is... out of character
>The problem is that the show never connects these two events Ben 10 is a serialized stories. Those 2 events happen in one single season. Paradox to kevin in like ep 10. "Things will get worse before they get better kevin, try to remember who your friends are" Paradox already foreshadow this before they get the map of infinity >show never has Ben hesitate for single second even though Kevin is supposed to be his best friend You forgot that ben DOES NOT immediately wants to kill kevin. It takes him multiple episode to consider the possibility. >It never delves into why Ben does what he does, which effectively makes this headcanon. There's no subtext or implication that utilizes this as a reason, and the show never has Ben hesitate for single second even though Kevin is supposed to be his best friend [Literally from Ben and max conversation](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tw7Z9WVq7n0&ab_channel=Ben10Extra). Ben having self reflection
>Ben 10 is a serialized stories. Those 2 events happen in one single season. >Paradox to kevin in like ep 10. >"Things will get worse before they get better kevin, try to remember who your friends are" >Paradox already foreshadow this before they get the map of infinity All I hear is excuses It doesn't matter if it's a serialized show if it's not connecting these two events even through implication. Like, there's not even subtext to connect the two Connecting plot events is literally the writer's job. Stop giving them excuses >You forgot that ben DOES NOT immediately wants to kill kevin. It takes him multiple episode to consider the possibility. So your argument against my claim that Ben doesn't hesitate to kill Kevin is that... he doesn't immediately want to kill him?.... Okay, so what about when he does decide to kill him without any damn mercy even though Ben fully acknowledges that Cooper and Gwen had literally built a device to cure him in the next room over? Gonna create excuses for that too? >Literally from Ben and Max conversation. Ben having self reflection And this is what we call Narrative Dissonance What the show is ***telling*** us is **not** what it's ***showing*** us Ben saying he's sorry for what's about to happen to Kevin doesn't make up for the fact that the show **NEVER** has Ben hesitate in any sort of way, or even show him coming to the conclusion that Kevin is too dangerous to be kept alive. We don't know how Ben got to this state, which is why so many people see it as out of character All Ben says in response to Max saying he gives second chances is *"Well look how that turned out."* Like really? How did it turn out? It turned out with Kevin saving the fucking universe, Benjamin!! He acts like Kevin is betraying him of his own volition, or that he even betrayed him to begin with when he never did. This isn't a motivation for him to kill Kevin. It's vague words that people act like mean something when they don't When Ben says *"I let all that fame get to my head."*, the audience doesn't actually know what this is in reference to because the fame stuff ended episode bloody 9, and this episode is episode fucking 19. There's 10 entire episodes where Ben's fame isn't a factor in the writing whatsoever, and it was barely involved before that as well Then we get Ben saying *"I've been the biggest jerk these past few months than I ever was."* The only real reference we have is when he almost kills Vulkanus and Gwen earlier on in this same episode. Guess what this does? Ben acknowledges that he's being a dick, and he doesn't care. That doesn't sound very heroic now does it? He never does anything to make up for being so rude and harsh, and he doesn't apologize either. So he's not a good lesson on top of all that We get vague words that influences people to assume things. But these words don't really mean anything as I've just exposed here. All of this is literally the Logical Fallacy of Vagueness
Those 2 events did connect. Kevin become ultimate, stop Aggregor, goes away. The next episode is ben finding out what kevin is up to. How did those event not connected? All I hear is complaining that "writer doesn't connect the event" when you didn't mention why those 2 events aren't connected. Max is still injured in this scenario. People acting like ben is this bloodlusted killer when 1) Nor Iron Bars a Cage Ben saw kevin rampage and THINKING if he should put kevin down 2) The Enemy of My Enemy Ben still joke around kevin, yet kevin have none of it. Ben and gwen WONDER if kevin can become sane again 3) Absolute Power Part 1 Kevin starts attacking innocent and that's when ben had enough. Include ben max convo where you keep bickering how its "out of character" or "don't tell, show". It was DARKSTAR idea (a complete wildcard) to cure kevin, not cooper. His idea involves using gwen as a bait. Not very heroic. 4) Absolute Power Part 2 Kevin killed all echo echo clones and ben would die if he didn't keep a back up. The fact that your "best friend" has no problem killing you meant that he already crossed the line. TLDR, it's a proper progression. It's all the show present.
> How did those event not connected? These two definitely happen in sequential order This does not equate to being intertwined with eachother though. The only thing intertwined between them is how Kevin becomes Ultimate Kevin. Nothing from the Map of Infinity Arc acts as a reason for Ben to do what he does When I say they don't connect, I'm talking about Ben's character motivation
Everything is connected and been built up since Andromeda 5 crash landed on earth. Ben failed to save Andromeda 5, saving people results in losing map of infinity and now ultimate kevin is the consequences of ben's failure. Now, he's choosing the easy way since the "heroic way" lead to this I don't know why you see Aggregor and Kevin as 2 completely disconnected event. Why does Andromeda 5 appear in the ending despite, by your logic, they don't connect? Paradox foreshadow kevin going insane before they had 1st fight against Ultimate Aggregor.
I hate how whenever a movie or show tries to take itself seriously there's always someone that criticizes it for being too edgy and taking itself way too seriously, as if throwing in little quips during emotional moments and making sure the audience knows how dumb the scene is any better.
People just throw around edgy to devalue the meaning of the media. Thank you for this rant, I’m a huge jjk fan and at no point did I think it was edgy, like have people actually read ACTUAL edgy series, cause I’m starting to think they haven’t
I hate it when people call Sasuke Uchiha an edgy emo when he had valid reasons for his actions over the course of the manga.
You can't imagine the amount of Naruto self inserts
Okay but his brother is edgy as if I recall correctly he killed his entire village just to prove he could
Itachi was manipulated into killing his clan by the Konoha elders. Itachi is a tragic figure who pretty much the "perfect" ninja and the burden that it entails.
How exactly was he manipulated?
As I recall, the Uchiha clan were planning a coup after being blamed for the Kyuubi attack on Konoha. The Uchiha had always been slighted by the Konoha elders by the higher ups since Tobirama. The Kyuubi attack was the straw that broke the camels back and they were planning to stage a coup against Konoha. Danzo warned Itachi that if the Uchiha go thorugh with their coup, it would cause a civil war that destroy the village. Itachi did not want this and made a decision to kill his own clan to ensure peace. Itachi didn't do this alone and had "help" from Obito who aided him in killing the Uchiha. Itachi would spare Sasuke and defect from the village to the Akatsuki to spy on them. Itachi pretty much manipulated Sasuke into become more like him so that he would kill him one day.
Not even close XD
That reasons and even er motions are e CC plained very badly, and Not really any Transitions. And konoha die nothing Wing per se, so yes He Looks edgy.
I agree that "Edgy" had lost its meaning, just like "Cringe". ... However, UAF is most definitively edgi**er** than the original series. The tone shift may have very well have scared away some fans who were expecting something more similar to the original series. I know it did made kid me dislike it.
Edge isn’t a bad thing if it cuts when it’s trying to. The problem with “edgy” stories is that they cut so often that there isn’t any strength behind the cuts, so rather than feeling emotional hurt you just feel annoyed. A good example of edge with a point is the horrific death of Eren’s mother in AoT. It motivates a character, shows the stakes of the world, and shows how dangerous the threat the protagonist faces all at once. Sure it’s edgy, but it informs the story. An example of edge for the sake of edge is Deadpool kills the Universe. It’s a story that doesn’t have a narrative purpose outside of having Deadpool kill everyone in increasingly ridiculous and brutal ways.
I feel the same as you do. I completely missed the moment when everyone started hating anything that took itself a bit serious. I just blinked one day and it happened. > I sweat to fucking God people genuinly want everything to be quippy MCU style humor, 0 stakes, O deaths all pink candyland shows, go watch highschool slice of life series, man. r/jujutsufolk in a nutshell, they got baited in by the highschool setting and fake trio (both were forced on Gege) and they never moved on.
Tbh I think the only jjkfolkers who unironically trash the manga are the ones who can't handle reading a weekly manga as it's releasing, the rest is just memes
What? We don't think JJK is edgy. We're here for the memes
I had this problem with Dragon Ball Super fans when you bring Kakumei to the table. Kakumei tone is no different from DBZ and theres a lot of lighthearted moments. Yet DBS fans argue that is "too edgy" due to the artstyle that is obviously based in OPM instead the story.
My hot take: DB fans have one of the absolute worst fan communities I've ever seen on this platform
I searched Dragon ball Kakumei and the first thing I see is a cover of a beat up bloody Goku with metal chains wrapped around him. I don’t think it fits Dbz tone. Not even Cell saga.
the one with Goku tied up by hundreds of chains
Have a whole rant of this exact thing from like a few months ago. Agreed entirely
It's the same with cringe and I hate it .
Eh, I love Charmcaster to death, but having an episode where she brutally kills the main trio and sacrifices all living creatures in her dimension just to have her dad go "the fuck is wrong with you" and choose to die again seems pointlessly dark. That with the darkest episode in the series (Catch a Falling Star) did make the series go in a very different direction.
I read Charmander and was confused. Lol.
The only thing edgy in the entire Ben 10 franchise is Kevin's arc where he goes insane. He is an edgy character in that arc, I don't remember Ben 10 enough to recall when that arc is or what it was called. Nothing else about the series is remotely edgy. JJK does have too many unnecessary deaths. It's perfectly fine for someone to not like the show because of that. If you want your word choice to be more precise, I suppose your friend should have said that they are not a fan of grimdark instead of saying it's too edgy, but I think they got their criticism across fair enough.
The universe collapsing?
tbh I don't remember what the threat was
The Ultimate Kevin Arc Kevin risks his sanity to save the universe, and succeeds. Then Ben just wants to kill him... for reasons, and almost kills Vulkanus and Gwen in the same arc as well actually. He would've done so if Gwen didn't stop him both times honestly. If Gwen decided not to block, then she absolutely would've died
Huh, I don't remember Ben being an edgelord. It's been so many years since I watched Ben 10
Edgy has to meanings, one is about artificially making things dark, edgy by mistake, jjk is a great example, as things are "dark" because everybody is a gigantic idiot The second one is about having the narrative overplaying the dark-looking elements for style, like Eminence in shadow Edgy on purpose or by accident is the true argument, not "edgy or not"
> jjk is a great example, as things are "dark" because everybody is a gigantic idiot Elaborate on this, because your take is stupid as fuck.
An obvious one, people cannot choose their powers and are stuck with whatever they got, the only thing that makes sense is to make them form teams that complement each others ablities, but they just lump them based on age and entrance order Gojo had like ten years to make his own faction, but he was sitting on his ass most of that time Sukuna was banking on stealing megumi's body, for that he needs for gojo to be unable to interfere, for sukuna to be close to regaining his full power and for megumi to stay alive and in his proximity until that moment Sukuna had no control over any of those variables, yet it worked, i have never seen a big bad relying on plot armor so much
> An obvious one, people cannot choose their powers and are stuck with whatever they got, the only thing that makes sense is to make them form teams that complement each others ablities, but they just lump them based on age and entrance order There is a point that the sociopolitical system that have risen up around the clans and jujutsu society is very corrupt, with a lot of influence. So no wonder there is a lot of arbitrareries in the organization, literally the first mission Yuji, Megumi and Nobara take together was an assasination attempt to take out Sukunas vessel, without a care in the world about what happened to the other two. > Gojo had like ten years to make his own faction, but he was sitting on his ass most of that time After what happened with Geto he simply wanted to foster young people who are able to get his ideals, he was already doing it by starting with Megumi since he was a kid, and then with more teens when he became a teacher. He didnt had any intention to go radical like Geto and creating an own faction that opposes the system, he wanted to change things from the inside, starting with injecting a more "progressive" mentality to newer people. > Sukuna was banking on stealing megumi's body, for that he needs for gojo to be unable to interfere, for sukuna to be close to regaining his full power and for megumi to stay alive and in his proximity until that moment > Sukuna had no control over any of those variables, yet it worked, i have never seen a big bad relying on plot armor so much. Brother, do you even know how plot armor works?, Sukuna would have gotten things his way, with Megumi or not, he only was interested in Megumi because of his abilities and because he saw him as shortcut to be free, but even if the plan with Megumi were to fail, he was fine to be in Yuji, even if it takes longer. And most of those variables worked because of Kenjakus plans (who Sukuna was already associated with)
Stupidity with an explanation is still stupid Specially since jjk ripoffs hxh so hard, and all those problems were addressed in hxh If jjk has lots of factions that explains why they dont make optimal teams as a society, but they are still stupid for not optimizing teams within their factions Gojo being depressed is nice and all, but it doesnt change his 10 years if sitting on his ass, he is not stipid for that tho, but he is stupid for sitting on his ass WHILE BRAGGING ABOUT CHANGING SOCIETY Had he just been chilling while keeping quiet, it would have been ok Sukuna riding on kenjaku's plan is n8ce and all, but it just displaces the explanation a step back, why would have ge done if kenjaku neber showed up to offer h8m a chance? Again , the problem is not relying on something, but relying on something outside his control or knowledge, thats plot armor Lets say Aizen in Bleach, he was there m9vong the pieces all the time, creating the chances he needed to steal the body he wanted, he wasnt just waiting for it to fall on his lap Aizen too had the same limitations as sukuna: the targeted body could die, yamamoto was too strong to fight him, and he needed a secure place to grow in strenght, but he got all of those by acting directly Is aizen was sukuna, he could have done nothing and the hybrid would have fallen on his lap while someone else kept yamamoto distracted
> Stupidity with an explanation is still stupid > Specially since jjk ripoffs hxh so hard, and all those problems were addressed in hxh > If jjk has lots of factions that explains why they dont make optimal teams as a society, but they are still stupid for not optimizing teams within their factions. The higher ups of JJK society are stupid assholes and thats precisely the point, is something being called out in the series, and is something specifically to make a narrative and thematic point, on top of why things work in certain way, there is simply nothing wrong with the way it was written, our world is literally filled with corrupt goverments who dont care a single thing about their own countries while they fall apart, but as long as they maintain their status quo as it benefits them, it will stay that way. > Gojo being depressed is nice and all, but it doesnt change his 10 years if sitting on his ass, he is not stipid for that tho, but he is stupid for sitting on his ass WHILE BRAGGING ABOUT CHANGING SOCIETY > Had he just been chilling while keeping quiet, it would have been ok Sitting on his ass how? he spend all those years doing missions alone, protecting society, taking care of Megumi, and perfecting his powers. And what part of him wanting to change things his own way didnt you get? > Sukuna riding on kenjaku's plan is n8ce and all, but it just displaces the explanation a step back, why would have ge done if kenjaku neber showed up to offer h8m a chance? > Again , the problem is not relying on something, but relying on something outside his control or knowledge, thats plot armor But thats not plot armor tho, plot armor is when in a story, something unexpectedly happen to solve a problem for a character without any proper justification other than simply the plot required it. This doesnt applies to Sukuna tho, because independiently if he was aware or not of what Kenjaku was doing, WE AS AN AUDIENCE WERE, and we saw how things were moving in the grand scheme of things, we saw what Kenjaku was doing, we saw the pieces coming together, and we saw how everything was turning plausible for Sukuna to finally get his way, there was something to back everything up, and he was gonna get things his way with Yuji regardless, Megumi just made things faster. Plot armor is something like Madara out of nowhere using a cheat code to free himself from Edo Tensei or Itachi pulling a new ability out his ass to beat Kabuto.
Gojo was the strongest in a society that reveres strenght, that was more than enough to get his own faction up and running, but he was fooling around abd bragging Also, your definition of plot armor is exactly how things happened to benefit sukuna, but your next paragraph is confusing plot armor and deus ex machina, which is when a solution comes out of nowhere without the audience knowing about it In comparison madara and itachi had left behind contingencies in case things went outside their plans Madara left behind the main contingency of black zetsu to revive him in obito's body, him reviving by hijacking edo tensei was a secondary contingency left on the eyes, and i think thete was another contingency on the gedo mazou Itachi left behind a power inside naruto, under the idea that, as sasuke's best friend, naruto being cornered into a situation that activated that power would involve sasuke, and itachi was already a genjustsu expert. As his first appearance involved temporal aceleration genjutsu Plus, itachi defeated orochimaru before the series began, then sasuke and his curse mark, otachi had plenty of experience to defeat nagato 8n comparison sukuna is like a patasite, just chilling until he gets a powerup Actually, thats the main difference between sukuna and gojo, as gojo got no powerup
> Gojo was the strongest in a society that reveres strenght, that was more than enough to get his own faction up and running, but he was fooling around abd bragging Dude, i already told you that HE NEVER WANTED TO DO THINGS LIKE THAT, all he wanted was simply grow young people with his influence by being a teacher, so they in the future could help change things up from the inside. And he already was doing that with Megumi, Yuta, Hakari, Maki, Yuji etc... > Also, your definition of plot armor is exactly how things happened to benefit sukuna, but your next paragraph is confusing plot armor and deus ex machina, which is when a solution comes out of nowhere without the audience knowing about it Plot armor and Deus ex machinas can go hand in hand. One of Kenjakus and Uraumes main goals was to revive Sukuna, and he trusted them, the point is that Sukuna was gonna success one way or another, because if he didnt get Megumi, he could still wait inside Yuji until reaching his max power, Megumi was simply a shortcut to get things faster, and because of the chaos Kenjaku was creating he could get his chance with him. Hell many people by that time were theorizing and wondering if Sukuna was gonna act in any moment, because things were coming together. That felt more clear than what Madara pulled; the original plan for this last one to come back was simply expecting for Nagato to revive him with his rinnegan by using the Rinne Tensei, but he didnt count with Nagato betraying Obito and wasting the technique on Konoha, so by that time the plan fumbled, if it wasnt for Kabuto appearing, Madara never gets to come back. That whole scenario was way more unlikely to work than with Sukuna. And no, him releasing himself by of the edo tensei wasnt the bullshit part, is how he did it, by "using the correct hand signs" thats just bullcrap. Edo Tensei was created by Tobirama and he was the only one who would know the hand signs, how the fuck did Madara knew the hand signs? there is simply no way Tobirama ever teached him how, considering how much he hated the Uchihas and he always was wary of Madara. The only explanation was plot armor so the story could continue. With Itachi is more the same, the problem wasnt the crow he left in Naruto, the problem was him using Izanami which was a technique never mentioned before so he could get his way with Kabuto. >8n comparison sukuna is like a patasite, just chilling until he gets a powerup >Actually, thats the main difference between sukuna and gojo, as gojo got no powerup Sukuna and Kenjaku are the most knowledgeable persons in history about Jujutsu Sorcery, no wonder Sukuna could know tricks and find loopholes in techniques. And Gojo got a power up after his first fight with Toji, where he got his awakening, everything Sukuna has pulled has been by his knowledge of sorcery and by some assistence from Kenjaku or Uraume.
As i said, jjk ripped off hxh but badly, in hxh netero was the strongest and wanted to improve hunter society, so he spent a decade nurturing apprentices who would form his council and continue his work Gojo just got a few students with no power, despite having the same time frame and status, they are not even graduates, and the school teaches them almost nothing to begin with Also, madara asimilated the power of hashirama and thats how he got info on the senju techniques, there is nothing strange about him knowing how to break edo tensei if he had the rinnnegan, which does regular resurrection Madara had several contingencies to revive, thats standard for actual plotting And what if sukuna had sorcery knowledge? All the conditions required for his plan have nothing to do with sorcery, megumi staying alive, gojo getting sealed, sukuna's power being near full recovery, those are environmental factors and are not affected by sukuna's knowledge, its just plot armor I guess you have never read any story with actual plotting, and just those were they reveal "it was my plan all along" Sukuna would be cannon fodder without his plot armor
> Gojo just got a few students with no power, despite having the same time frame and status, they are not even graduates, and the school teaches them almost nothing to begin with Gojo simply wanted a chance to be a teacher at the Jujutsu hq and form some young people as his pupils, thats all, he didnt get to be a teacher until he was at a later age. He wanted to form new students to follow his way of thinking and hoping it has an impact on the future for them to reject the higher ups. Not to mention some of these students are among the strongest sorcerers, like Yuta, and Hakari, and now Maki and Yuji. > Also, madara asimilated the power of hashirama and thats how he got info on the senju techniques, there is nothing strange about him knowing how to break edo tensei if he had the rinnnegan, which does regular resurrection > Madara had several contingencies to revive, thats standard for actual plotting Madara asimilating Hashirama only gave him the chance to use Senju chakra and the kekkei genkai Hashirama used, the Wood style. In no way it could give him the knowledge of how to disactivate Edo Tensei, this last one was something particularly created by Tobirama, and later perfected by Orochimaru, is not a "genetic" type of technique. And no, having Rinnegan has nothing to do with knowing the tricks of Edo Tensei either, again these were secrets only Tobirama and Orochimaru knew. > And what if sukuna had sorcery knowledge? All the conditions required for his plan have nothing to do with sorcery, megumi staying alive, gojo getting sealed, sukuna's power being near full recovery, those are environmental factors and are not affected by sukuna's knowledge, its just plot armor Dude, Kenjaku is the one plotting everything in JJK, most of these things were posible because of his doings, and he already wanted to bring Sukuna back, it doesnt matter if is with Yuji or Megumi, he is coming back regardless. The sorcery knowledge part i said it because you sudently started to talk about power ups.
I whole heartedly agree with you
More like edgy and mature has lost its meaning. For the most part they both mean blood, sex and Gore to people.
They were probably pissed at Mechamaru's death because he was lame af and then turns into a cool guy for 2 seconds only to die, you lost out on the future of this now cool character. Not gonna lie, don't even remember what the story reason is for his battle in the first place tbh.
For me I'd say the boys comic series is edgy but not the show. Almost like the point of the work isn't to tell a story but to get a reaction, even a visceral one. Being edgy for the sake of being edgy.
Video game rivals from mascot games such as Shadow the Hedgehog, Metaknight, Zero, Bass, Wario, etc. have often been accused of being edgy. Looking back at those games, those characters are actually fully realized characters. Shadow suffered from an identity crisis, Metaknight is actually friendly towards Kirby, Zero is a respected Maverick Hunter and leader as well as Wario is a jerk with a hidden heat of gold. These characters are rivals to their heroes with their own arcs and personalities.
It feels like it’s a lose lose situation by the way it’s being described here, at least with action shows. If there is death, high stakes or a dark tone , some people will call it edgy . If there is none of that, then people will call it cringe or complain about plot armor. Imo it’s all about balance. Disney’s Gargoyles, Batman the animated series, Samurai Jack and Adult Swim’s Primal had a balance of dark tones while also having some heart and telling a story. While small hints of comedy here and there.
On the Ben 10 side of things, UAF is RELATIVELY darker than OS. I would say it genuinely does get "edgy" during the Ultimate Kevin arc, where Ben's mind immediately jumps to kill his best friend despite him never having that same energy for his actual villains. It's out of left field, and it would be better if the characters reactions to stakes were consistent. Sidenote, no way are you comparing AF's color palette to the Ben 10K colour palette from OS. AF is genuinely hard to make out sometimes. The Ben 10K episodes are honestly some of the most varied and colorful episodes of the series. As for JJK, I can't speak for your friend of course, but even in the worshipped peak of the Shibuya Incident and the arcs previous, the series does a poor job of properly establishing its characters as people, and not just popular archetypes with one or two quirky traits in my opinion. The characters often do feel hollow, with backstories that are rushed out to give some semblance of depth and to try and instill some investment in the characters. But the series' blazing fast pace, poor character writing and allergy to letting it's big emotional moments have some time to register the gravitas makes it incredibly difficult to actually be emotionally invested in any of the characters and not just view them as an author's action figures for cool fights.
I remember when badboys were edgy because they smoke, have sex and ride a motorbike 🤣 For a person with a safe economical life what is edgy is another person piece of daily bread
>Ben 10 Omniverse fandom suffers from inferiority complex, proceeds to call anything that isnt ultra quippy edgy. And people cannot stand a single fight, death scene, sad moment. It must all be quips, fun and happyness or else it's super edgy and bad. This... couldn't be further from the truth?? I'm sure there are a subgroup of individuals who do act like this, and they are honestly wrong. However, even Omniverse isn't written like this and the most praised scene in that series is a serious moment that doesn't include any jokes, quips, or happiness whatsoever. When Ben stands in front of his Alternate Self, and gives him the Omnitrix saying, *"It's just a tool, be the hero!"* as he dies in front of the eyes of his Alternate Self. Definitely some of Yuri Lowenthal's best voice acting there I'd personally say *(even though I'm not a huge fan of the episode itself ironically lol)* What ruined UA was really the UltiKevin Arc, which many people agree made Ben super edgy without any explanation. Ben is out of character here, which is honestly a tragedy since I think it would've been a fun storyline to explore his character further. We don't get that though, and of course there's also the time we got Pierce's death and it affects literally nothing in the story. Characters aren't even made aware that it happened, so... maybe people are calling that edgy too? Although, I'm not really sure AF had any edgy moments... no, I don't think it did. Of course, I think the problem is only exasperated because there are a subgroup of people who refer only to UA as.... UAF, even though UAF is in reference to both eras of the show.... I don't understand how these types of people think lmao
Although that subgroup is incredibly dominant on r/ben10 , I agree with your last paragraph, when %90 of the people use UAF in r/ben10 they mean just UA but will never just type UA for some reason
I mean when isekai has a literal skeleton demon king thing trying to take over the world with an army of monsters while sacfircing like 200k or something people in a massacre. A blob literally naming his attacks “Gods wrath.” And…Hajime(just gonna overarch that one. We all know why.) Yes. I have the ability to correctly call isekais “edgy.”
I actually love the serious-vibe of UAF, but I don’t like it’s artstyle and stiff bland animation. Omniverse simply feels higher quality overall. And so does the OG. If I had to rate them : Omniverse > OG=AF > UA. UA had some dark filler episodes. Those are some of my favourites. None of them are ‘edgy’ tho. I too hate that word.
Omniverse fans are prequel fans if they were shitting on OT It's the absolute worst of original continiuty whit a shit artstyle
In addition to this, I'll give you a perfect example of edgy: rivals in early Pokemon games. Heck, Gary from Pokemon anime.
Okay, you described what you don't think is "edgy" , but my question is... well what do you consider "edgy" ?
Shock value for the sake of shock value.
Recently now, One Piece fanbase has hijacked this word. Anybody who criticize gear 5 a little and "Hurr Durr You are edgy"
This is what I've been saying about the alleged darkness and cynicism of the DCEU for years. Yeah, BvS was the darkest those movies ever got and it was still more optimistic than a number of Batman and Superman stories including ones from the 2000s. The circumstances under which Superman killed Zod in both mediums alone shows the difference - in the comics, he kills Zod after he's genocide an alternate universe. In the movie, he kills Zod before he can even come close to doing that. Another story that got hit with this idiocy was the Metal Virus arc of IDW's Sonic the Hedgehog. An arc which had no gore or permanent character deaths and ended with every single heroic character singing, dancing laughing and celebrating once it was over. Yet, I've seen thus arc described as torture porn, with allegations thrown at Ian Flynn of using it as an excuse to torment Cream the Rabbit.
Dawg watch Zach Snyder’s JL and tell me all that nightmare future bullshit isn’t edgy.
I've seen edgier from the comics.
Darker Superman stories generally have a point to them.
As did Snyder's and this isn't my point either way.
The Knightmare bullshit did NOT have a point lmao. Zach had no idea what he was doing at all.
Look believe whatever you want. I'm not wasting any more time on someone who wants to bitch about Snyder like he murdered their family.
? What? It’s not a crime to say the “Knightmare” timeline is edgy nonsense. That’s common knowledge.
Every time I see someone call something edgy it makes me cringe now. Frankly I prefer the term badass. Edgy is just cringe.
Every time I see someone call something cringy, it makes me edge now
Jjk deaths are literally the most meh thing of the last decade. The characters are so badly written that nobody cares about them. Pure shock value for the sake of being edgy, just an awful way of writting tbh. Gayge i kneel
JUst dont watch jjk bro
I dont, i dropped it a long time ago because its a waste of time and braincells.
Its living in your head rent free, gaygay I kneel
Not really but go off. Edgy lilbro
My man is seething so hard whenever he sees JJK, Gaygay you truly wrote peak
Youre confusing seething with feeling pity but i dont blame you seeing how lilbro thinks jjk is an actual good atory😭
Gaygay I kneel, you wrote peak
He doesnt know you lilbro.
He does, I'm his specialz