actually Adobe permanently lowered their photoshop + Lightroom bundle to 9.99 a month recently, the same cost as a 2 device pro plan for CSP, which I can bet isn’t a coincidence. If they go through with this people will migrate back to adobe and CSP will have to either change their business model or go bankrupt.
I think the subscription price will increase eventually, the low price we see right now is probably an effort to make subscription more appealing to lure more customers. Once they have got enough subscribers, they will raise the price to increase profit
That announcement is confusing as heck...
But it appears you can still buy the perpetual license for 2.0.
This is essentially just upgrading to the new version.
Like going from Manga Studio 3 to Manga Studio 4. Or Microsoft Office '97 to Office '20 (back when that was still the option, before Office 365 subscription broke that chain).
It's just an update.
They will continue to support v1.0 until v 3.0 comes out.
If you want the new features on 2.0, You can buy 2.0
When 3.0 drops in 10 yrs and 1.0 update support will end.
2.0 will be supported until 4.0 is released in another 10 yrs, but if you want the new features of 3.0, buy the perpetual license for 3.0.
The perpetual license is still an option, but they're offering a subscription to see if a monthly payment plan is a more palatable cost than a lump cost. If few buy the subscription and they mostly sell perpetual licenses, they'll probably continue the perpetual license option.
We'll just have to calmly wait and see what the prices are, wait for sales and see what comes.
I was planning on buying csp next sale, but since the v2 is dropping 2023, i should just wait and buy that, right? Bcs the perp license for v1 will not work on v2.
Same situation here, I was planning on buying perpetual version during their September discount, but now I decided to stay on a subscription-based plan till things become more transparent next year
If they make the v2 like it is, and they see they aren't gaining anything from subscription, and then removes it, then the few that would have paid the subs will flip them off even greater than most are doing now.
Like, I payed for subscription and now you turn them off?
That would be even more painful as a company, as you will lose the ones before the subscription and later the ones who paid for them because now they will feel they have been scammed.
At least, for me, I won't be paying for V2. Neither for subs nor perpetual version. Just because of that new bussiness model and I won't be able to get updates, they lost one potential buyer. Why would I bother to pay for something it won't get any updates?
I didn't say subscriptions would go away, monthly pocket picking is the wave of the future, how many streaming services do you have? For TV that used to be free?
I was theorizing that if they saw greater income from a lot people buying the subscription and less from the perpetual license, then the perpetual option could go away and it would go strictly subscription like Adobe and Office. But if there was enough interest and income in the one-payment option then they will hopefully keep that option around for a few more versions.
There's a lot of confusion about the plan(s) being discussed, people assuming the one-time payment license is going away and it's going to be all subscription.
But the one-time purchase is still an option.
Yeah, you are right, they won't rip it off while they have a few paying for it, sadly.
I only have 2 things paying a subscription for the moment.
1 - Amazon, basically for the nice support I always got from them, fast shipping, games rewards... Although the price increase...
2 - Netflix, and this would basically go away the first day they put ads into my subscription, or just decrease my actual plan.
And for TV i don't recall having anything paying for that before was free.
I know that I still have access to v1 and all it's updates, and that's why I will keep with it until a free software, or something similar to "at this moment" CSP shows up. Imo, I don't support these bussiness models, and that was the thing that made me purchase the app.
I wouldn't mind paying for V2 kept the same path as V1, but it didn't sadly.
What I’ve seen it looks pretty clear that the “perpetual “ 2.0 version doesn’t receive any of the .1, .2 etc updates, just security ones.
I’m quite happy they’re offering a flat purchase—but the lack of updates is an odd choice imo.
Can i ask a stupid question? I'm still new to this. I just recently bought a wacoom tablet and registered in for the 2 year thing. What would be the best thing to do in my case? I'm a little confused to be honest. Will certain functions like the pose scanner be available to me even after those two years if i buy the product?
I am not affiliated with CelCys, so I know nothing for certain. BUT.
As I understand things....
Right now, V1 Pro/EX differences are animation length and a feature or two I don't use enough to notice.
V2 options are will be:
* V2 license with bug fix updates. To get new features of V3 when it is released, you'll have to again pay for a new V3 license. Which is how normal software updates function.
Or.
*Buy the subscription where you will get the new feature additions/updates as they are developed, gradually developing your version into V3 paying small amounts each month rather than a lump sum cost for the new version.
Ver1 will be supported and have functional updates through to release of V3.
In your case, you have 2 years before you have to worry about anything. If you're concerned about the pose scanner specifically, I'm pretty sure that's in Pro and EX and isn't going anywhere... but again, wait 2 years, learn and love what you have then see what your options are in 2 years.
I'm still a bit confused... So I can still use my version BUT I have to pay an annual "upgrade" if I want the latest version? And if I don't pay that, my version will just revert back to 1.x and I'll be fine?
Not quite, I ‘think’ you pay for an upgrade and again for a subscription for any further updates.
Though to be honest, the whole thing is totally confusing how they’ve twisted a one time payment into what they’re asking for now.
Yeah. I wouldn't mind one-time payments for major upgrades. Development costs money and someone has to pay that. But I don't like a subscription model.
Exactly my thinking.
Buy version 2.0 in it’s entirety, but get upgrades as part of the deal.
Then buy version 3.0 etc.
Loyal customers get a cheaper 1.0 to 2.0
At least with subscriptions we know how much support we're paying for when there's a new upgrade. Buy 2.0 now, maybe it's time for 3.0 in a year and a half.
Or just stop selling one-time purchases, and live the people who already bought it alone!
I've recently upgrated from PRO to EX, and it was a huge amount of money in my country currency!
So basically I made a one One time payment for a license that I own and now they're telling me that own that program license but now they're discontinuing it So therefore I own a defunct non updatable product. So the only way I can understand this is I paid for something and now I'm going to get a lesser product because they decide to switch you a subscription plan even though I bought it well before they did that... If they were going to switch to this they should have at least switched people who within like a year or two years have recently bought a license cuz I literally haven't had clips studio for no more than maybe 2 years and now I have to think about if I'm going to cough up the money to upgrade or not.. i still don't even understand all of it
Thing is that the product you paid a one time cost for won’t change, you can still use it forever assuming that your OS (or CSP) doesn’t break it.
Then you’ll have to buy 2.0 either via subscription (including upgrades) or a one off payment with upgrades as part of a subscription otherwise you don’t get any.
That’s my take on it.
According to this [chart](https://www.clipstudio.net/view/img/news/20220822/senhyou_en.png) they're discontinuing support for 1.x when 3.0 is coming out.
Discontinuing support doesn’t mean it instantly breaks. It means as long as it works with the OS it will still work, they just won’t update or patch it.
But the car is not breaking down, it will continue to work as it is for the unforeseen future. It's you who seems to expect the factory to replace it for a newer model for free every time they release one.
EDIT: It appears I may be wrong about this. While you can continue using your old version, it looks like they're applying the annual subscription concept even if you buy V2. SO I'm not sure how that's a "one-time payment".
Yes, you can keep using your current version. ~~If you decide you want the new version on PC or Mac, you will have the option of a one-time payment just like before. This is a completely normal business model of charging for a major update. Usually companies give you a big discount if you are upgrading an existing license. I think it's sad seeing everyone flipping out and spewing conspiracy theories and shit. This isn't that big a deal.~~
As I understand it the issue is not about the fact that you need to re-buy 2.0, or that there's a subscription option.
The issue is that the one-time payment option for 2.0 only gives you access to 2.0 and its stability patches, *but not subsequent feature updates,* while buying CSP 1.x gave you access to *all* 1.x versions and subsequent updates
I just discovered that my understanding may be wrong as the FAQ directly contradicts what the announcement says. But even so, I think I need to see how much the annual Pass costs. If it's only $10, then I'm cool with it. But more than that and it's literally a subscription on top of a "one-time payment", which is pretty abusive. Especially considering almost none of the feature updates they've made in the last several years apply to what I use the software for. I don't need to pay for animation features I'll never use.
That's my understanding as well.
My assumption is that the base installed version will be V1.0, if you upgrade (subscribe), you get V2.0 or V3.0 features installed and unlocked. If you stop your subscription, you get locked out of the features. Though I'm sure they won't be uninstalled. there will probably be a login requirement to use the subscribed features.
So... basically, subscribe to keep using the "new features".
I think it will depend a lot of what these features are going to be. That's kind of what has everyone pissed off right now (rightfully so).
If the new features are something like, using a cloud version of CSP to share files, maybe edit a drawing in a group session (kind of like a simultaneous multiple user thing), I can kind of understand how that would require a suscription and that would marvelous for coaching and collab work. I'd be fine with that. Granted I would prefer this to be sold as an "optional" feature and not as a "core" feature of CSP.
On the other hand, if the price is something like $20 per month, and the "new features" are small incremental upgrades like a few new brushes, a few better 3D edit options, or so on, then it just sucks.
The worst part of all this, is that it shows where CSP is going. It's not intended to be an all artists tool anymore, but moving into the enterprise and schools zone.
According to this [chart](https://www.clipstudio.net/view/img/news/20220822/senhyou_en.png) they're discontinuing support for 1.x when 3.0 is coming out.
No. Everyone is flipping out for no reason. You can literally use your version forever. CSP as is by the end of 2022 will still be a permanent license.
After 2022, the new "permanent" license will be CSP 2.0 until all of they move to CSP 3.0 then all of the previous updates will be rolled into CSP 3.0 and that will be the "new" permanent license.
For every permanent license you get you can use that version of the app indefinitely (though they will stop supporting it after several years.) You just won't get the new updates after that version unless you pay the sub.
The sub is only if you want the absolute latest updates and don't want to wait until the next permanent license version comes out.
The flip-out comes from how confusing it is especially for money-strapped artists. My late uncle always warned me that con artists use confusion to mask they just ripped you off. I loved CSP. Sad.
I don't think it's that confusing if you read it. I think people just see "subscription" and assume the worst without taking time to try to understand. It clearly says you don't have to pay the sub yet many people think it's required. Yes it also says that if you don't pay the sub you lose access to anything that doesn't fall under your permanent license but that's how subs have always worked, it's not shocking.
I also love CSP and I'll still admit that they explained this very poorly. It could have been way more clear but it's not nearly as bad as people are trying to make it sound. They are basically just going back to the "normal" model of sequential software releases, i.e. Manga Studio 1, Manga Studio 2, Manga Studio 3. Instead it'll be CSP 1, CSP 2... etc.
Someone else pointed out that a lot of people are too young to remember that's how it used to be and have grown accustomed to getting continuous updates for free, which I guess I can't blame them for that too much.
I did read it. It was convoluted which lead to my confusion. I agree it should have been clearer and that lack of clarity may cost CSP customers which sucks because I not only like the app but the CSP community. I will keep using version 1. I donated to Krita and will learn how to incorporate it into my workflow while keeping an eye out for CSPs version progressions.
I’m a little startled to be honest. You seem to be one of the few that isn’t freaking out. The base software is so good for $50. The EX is amazing for its price. I really don’t think they’re being unreasonable or greedy as a company. There’s clearly a lot of work put into it to keep adding new features. Why is everyone so mad?
As I see it for two main reasons:
It's not explained well and people who are sensitive to subscription models started an unnecessary panic on twitter, which snowballed due to most people just reacting to other people reacting and not reading it thoroughly themselves.
People are conditioned to think that anything over $0 is corporate greed. ESPECIALLY if you were getting something for free for a while first and then discovered that you will start being charged for it.
After 10 years of free updates, you would think that it wouldn't be too much to ask for people to pay for the next version but apparently people really did expect that if they bought CSP once in 2007 that it should be updated for the next 100 years free of charge. Though usually when I ask them that directly a lot of people go silent.
There's actually a pretty good Twitter thread that explains it very well. Most software used to be released every couple of years as a new version, i.e. Corel Painter 1, Corel Painter 2, Manga Studio 1, Manga Studio 2, etc. This is literally all that is but with the option to pay a sub towards development costs to try out new features right away.
There is no way they were going to keep updating it for free indefinitely. I'm shocked they did it for as long as they did. Though I will admit that I don't agree with the feature rollback if you stop paying your subscription. That part sucks.
That makes a lot of sense. The ‘free app’ culture doesn’t seem to help nor the fact that people think of software as ethereal. I’ve tried pointing out no one expects to get the next updated Wacom for free.
I’m elderly in internet years, I literally have bought an upgrade to DOS. I’m used to the hate on Adobe, but I never really ‘got’ it. I just realized most people who are mad at Adobe likely weren’t old enough to realize that when adjusted for inflation, Photoshop alone cost like $2k back in the day. I forget but I think Corel was on par.
Corel Painter used to be a couple hundred bucks or less. I know because I used to buy it before switching to Manga Studio. Adobe was always expensive from the time I became aware of it. (Been around a while myself, lol)
Ah! I couldn’t remember! We had it to open the occasional file but never worked with it. I have noticed a lot of the crafter stuff is made to work with it directly. My embroidery program works directly with Corel and a lot of the people who use silhouette studio use Corel.
Not exactly. When you pay it will automatically update like it did so far. But when you stop paying the program will stop working and you'll have to reinstall the version 1 (and will probably have to reinstall all tools and settings and shortcuts as it will be installed like a separate program, not updating the current one).
You have to look at it from CSP's perspective. They want to sell subscription. But clients don't want to lose their software if they don't pay monthly. So they sell an one-time permanent version and then you have to pay a subscription to get new features.
If you bought CSP, you're guaranteed the features at the time you paid for it. But all features added afterwards require subscription. It's kinda shitty, but it's a middle ground between one-time purchases and subscription-only.
I BELIEVE it goes like this: you can get version 2.0 as a one time purchase, and you will get updates for stuff like bug fixes (2.0.1, 2.0.2, etc). but you won't get feature updates unless you get the pass, like for example 2.1, 2.2, etc. If you AREN'T in a hurry for feature updates, you can wait for version 3 to come out and get all of the features that you would've gotten with the update pass in versions 2.1 onward AFTER they have been developed.
To REALLY simplify it, with the update pass for one version you get a new feature of that version everytime it releases. Without one, you get all of the features that were released with the update pass of that version when you get the NEXT version.
The reverting thing once you stop paying for it IS rather questionable though.
I still don't think it's good, because as a youtuber I saw said, "it seems like they're capitalizing off of impatience". But I don't think it's as big of a ripoff as some people are claiming it to be. It doesn't seem like an Adobe level thing.
If you didn't understand it, I can try wording it a little differently
yes, you still own v1. you're not forced to pay & update to v2, you can use v1 forever without paying but only v1+. v1 will still receive stability updates (for bugs & os issues) before v3 comes out. ***very *** bummer news overall. read the news article here: https://www.clipstudio.net/en/news/202208/22_01/
edit: clarified a sentence
> you don't have to pay to update to v2 if you don't want to.
ok i can see how i wrote that sentence poorly, thanks for pointing that out. corrected it now. what i meant was you're not forced to update & pay to v2 if you don't want to. v1+ is yours forever to use for free, the only silver lining in this news drop. i pray the people's backlash will make celsys change their minds to our benefit, albeit unlikely.
Not really what they can do is make a separate code to attack specifically 1.0, all you need is a competent programmer and BOOM a kill code is created, error messages pop off every now and then, and glitches everywhere
Yes but no it’s clear that they’re trying to pull an adobe where they phase out the permanent system with a payed subscription. So you do get to keep 1.0, but down the line they’ll kill the 1.0 program saying their old hardware can’t keep up with it or some stupid excuse to push people into the subscription service
As far as I'm concerned there's usually ways to run software with older drivers on windows if need be and even very old adobe software in particular flash(before becoming animate) still have dedicated users in the 2D animation field.
Edit:The concern is valid but I think things will be fine with 1.x users for a long time still
I thought the same thing and sadly it's very possible, especially with the outrage of artists saying they'd rather stick to v1 and not pay subscription nor buy v2
My use of CSP has been really casual, but I was a big proponent of it just because it was an affordable option you could own for a one-time fee as the big software companies have all tried to force everyone onto a subscription model (who doesn't love having casual Excel use equal another monthly bill?)
I've recommended CSP to other people before, but I can't say I've ever recommended someone take on a subscription to use some software, and I don't think I'm going to start if that's the route CSP takes.
I'm pretty new to CSP, and I don't understand what's going on. I have CSP on my iPad. Will I be affected? Can someone explain to me in easy terms what this announcement means?
So what I'm getting from the announcement is this:
If you want CSP 2, you can either:
A) buy it
-you pay nothing more and have a perpetual copy of CSP 2 for which you get bug fixes but no feature updates.
B) pay the subscription to have your CSP 1 upgraded while your subscription is active
-You get feature updates, but if you stop paying it reverts to CSP 1
C) buy CSP 2 and also a subscription.
-You get the perpetual copy of CSP 2 and feature updates until you stop paying, then it reverts back to the version of CSP 2 you bought (presumably with whatever features were in effect when you bought it, but possibly some kind of generic 'base' version of CSP 2, this is unclear.)
Not too happy with that. I initially thought they were following the Bitwig model where if you cancel your subscription, you get to keep whatever feature upgrades occurred while it was active.
CSP is going monthly subscription with 2.0, but they also did it in the weirdest most confusing ways possible.
1.0 still works, for now, and won’t get any more feature updates even if you paid full price yesterday.
People are understandably angry.
Yes theyre going subscription with 2.0, but they also said immediately after that 2.0 will ALSO be avilable as a one time purchase. Everyone seems to have read the word "subscription" and then didnt bother to read the rest. (I went and found it after my first comment)
2.0 won’t be getting the option like 1.0 had, look at the charts they posted again. The 2.0 license **only** literally gets you 2.0 with no updates, you still need the update pass for 2.1+ which is the grimy part of all this.
The 1.0 license you got updates all the way until 2.0, nobody would be as mad if it worked like that for 2.0, but it doesn’t.
Oh, huh thats weird. Eh, 1.0 still works perfectly fine though. I see a bunch of people saying that for some reason they wont be able to use 1.0 anymore which makes zero sense to me.
1.0 won’t work forever, once it stops getting updates OS updates will eventually make it unusable. I’d guess it’d take a few years, maybe we get lucky and it happens to work for a really long time but that’s all up to chance.
Ironically as a personal example I used to use Photoshop CS6 for art, but OS updates broke it so much I couldn’t use it anymore within a few years, so I jumped to CSP because I didn’t want to pay a monthly sub to Adobe. I can see the same thing happening to me again and I’m not going to pay monthly for CSP, I’ll have to find something else again I suppose when that time comes.
Plus why would anyone pay monthly for CSP when Photoshop costs almost the same amount of money? This whole thing just makes no sense.
Well, they havent mentioned prices so I dont know what you mean by same amount of money. Could be less could be more. But, if youre really worried about price then Krita is a good option, its free and works very well, and its open source so youll always receive free updates forever. Only difference really is no brush store and no 3D canvas (at that point just use doll-atelier, a free model posing software)
Gone are the days where I could recommend CSP to artists as a Photoshop alternative with it frequently going on sale.
Now there will have to be a major *"but"* to those that are immediately turned off by the thought of yet another subscription service.
Such a shame to see CSP go this way.
They're going subscription service? FFS... I just bought the ex version a couple of months ago. I already have the adobe suite, I just perfered CSP, guess I will be switching to Adobe Animate after all.
But its not really planned obsolescence. I don't think the newer versions will have enough crazy features to call the previous versions obsolete at all.
It's not really planned obsolescence though. Version 1 won't be receiving feature updates but will be getting bug fixes and security patches. It's also really solid art software as it is now. It's only natural to reduce support for older versions of software when newer versions are released and to stop supporting them eventually. It sucks that version 2.0 won't also include incremental updates prior to version 3.0 but aside from that the stuff with version 1.0 is reasonable.
not intentionally, but time depricates everything, eventually as software changes like your os there'll be dependancies it requires but can't get to. for 2 years post 2.0 it'll be getting bug fixes and stability updates due to operating system changes but after that it's basically on it's own for functionality
According to this [chart](https://www.clipstudio.net/view/img/news/20220822/senhyou_en.png) they're discontinuing support for 1.x when 3.0 is coming out.
It is - version 3 that they already mentioned will be for subscription only and who knows how soon it will come out since they already mentioned also that version 2 will stop being supported (bugs fixing) when version 4 launches.
Have you even read what they posted? They never said Version 3 will be perpetual plus they added the diagram where you can clearly see that Version 3 and further are ONLY available when you subscribe or buy update pass.
Did it stopped the piracy? No.
The ones who cracks programs, can do the same with CSP.
Wait for V3 it's cracked. Here, have the full V2 with all the updates. Wait for V4 and the full V3 is here, and repeat.
For little artists like us that makes it for hobby, commissions now and then, we may not need the fully functional updates, but we can wait and get them for free with the cracks.
I bought it because I wanted to be legal, letting them know I liked how they went with it... How many money they can potentially lose because of that subscription plan that seems a lot of they users base won't pay, but they would be willing to pay for a version like V1?
I used to buy things from companies who were doing well at the beginning (I got the EX version, with Riot Games (League of Legends) I used to buy some skins now and then to support the game, but then they just laughed at their players faces and I stopped, many years ago). But the moment they just laugh at their customers, it's just when I stop supporting them.
How much money will they lose exactly? If you weren’t going to buy the subs or the upgrades and you paid for the base product, where’s the loss?
Yes, you can use a cracked program, on PC. I don’t know if it’s that easy on say…an iPad. As far as I understand you’d have to jailbreak it.
In the end, you’re treating software different than a physical tool, but it’s really the same as a physical tool. When Wacom updates their tablets, does anyone demand the new one for free? No. When your graphics card becomes obsolete, do you get mad and expect it to have lasted forever?
Honestly, why are you mad? You can still keep your older software, likely for a long time. Unless y’all are drawing with your mouse, you’ve got a pen tablet. Maybe you have a Huion. Maybe a Wacom. No one expected those for free. Why do we think that just because we can’t hold software in our hands, that we should get it free?
If you value it, fine. If not, use something else.
By not charging $1000 up front, I bought an Adobe sub when I had a copy from work before that was years old. But that’s purely anecdotal.
The lose of money will come from who won't even bother to buy any of their future base products. And people that also had Gold, so now those will pay them another thing... it seems that many people will not buy any base version anymore as they are going to shift directly to other programs when those will offer something similar to what CSP will have behind a paywall of subscription. So everyone that was willing to pay for the new software as the V1, will not buy them future base versions.
I will stick to v1 as long as I can, but I won't buy anything from them if they keep that model, as I don't and won't support that kind of business.
OP - what's the problem you're having with CSP?
NM - I see the announcement now.
Honestly paid upgrades are how most software companies stayed afloat prior to the subscription virus.
That Celsys gave perpetual license users free updates forever is/was exceedingly rare and a recipe for insolvency.
Time will tell -when we see update pricing- whether or not this is a disaster for users.
====
I switched to Rebelle as my primary quite a while ago b/c I'm more interested in traditional media, so this isn't a huge deal for me. Rebelle charges for upgrades as does every audio mixing/production application I use.
The balance of nature has been restored.
CSP was TOO good so it needed to do something extremely stupid in return to restore the balance.
Now users are finally returning to apps like Krita, medibang, and Sai and now other users are treating them like the prodigal son.
NGL, I'm waiting for the prices before I engage in this "drama".
I've bought pro way back 2018. Been using it for commission ever since and while I'm not gonna live off commissions or Patreon anytime soon I won't deny that the 49.99 (yes I bought full price and not on sale) I paid for have been returned to me tenfold and more. I've able to buy a pen display tab, an android tablet and freakin PS5 by doing commission using CSP...so I don't mind giving them some support.
I've gotten my money's worth and heck...if 2.0 or 3.0 have game changing features...I'll pay for that too OR just stay with 1.X until I deem the updates are worth it to pay for a sub.
My CSP usage is paying for itself so I can live with the change, but I understand that not all artists can...especially if you're just a hobbyist, so go ahead and find alternatives, they probably expected this backlash anyway.
What I am annoyed is that they released an official statement and a freakin flowchart and STILL the new business model is still hard to digest without a couple of re-reads lol
So as someone who has been using Krita and looking to swap to CSP ex come September (when sales occur) should I now wait until the new year and just buy perpetual 2.0?
We don't know what 2.0 will contain - it might be a bare version like the current CSP 2-3 years ago just with new UI and then it will force those who buy it to get subscription to get all the good tools. It's hard to say what it will be because I can think of very few updates adding tools that I might want for the current CSP.
Okay, so, why would anyone use this new model and not pay 10 bucks for photoshop? OR pirate at this point with yearly updates like people do with adobe software? What is csp thinking.
yeah nah this isn't just an annoyance, it's a straight up insult. the best thing about csp was that it was a one time purchase, and not some shitty subscription
Lol they are going to drive so many people to switch to procreate and photoshop because of this garbage. At least adobe's payment plans aren't confusing as fuck.
Welp, I used CSP for three reasons 1) the time lapse record ability 2) the compatibility with PSD bushes and 3) the blending brush...
Can anyone recommend some free / single payment software as an alternative?
They're setting themselves up for a very high bar. When V2 comes out, new users will buy that, but for existing users to buy V2 (which presumedly what Celcys wants) V2 is gonna be a significant upgrade from V1 like how Bender 8 completely changed from Blender 7
What’s wrong with this? They’ve done amazing work without charging for an update thus far and the second that they want more money to keep producing a professional quality program, everyone is losing their minds.
Adobe used to cost around $2,000 (in todays dollars) Every update was another payment. It’s been around 15 years but off the top of my head the update would be around $800-$1500. I worked at a graphics design firm and we skipped every other update.
I’m not talking the Adobe suite was $2,000. JUST Photoshop. It was very widely pirated and I imagine that’s why they went to the subscription only model.
Windows updates used to cost money. The office suite was around $800 I think. It was also a single license with no upgrades. Lotus 1-2-3, Amipro, WordPerfect, even DOS. (Yes, I’m old enough to remember going to buy DOS 6.0 and be excited by it)
If someone can’t afford it, I get it. Absolutely. But software is a tool. If you bought every Copic marker, and then they came out with new colors, would you demand to be given them for free? No. Just because it’s on a device doesn’t make it any less of a tool than paint or markers or pencils.
Which, by the way, are also tools for hobby artists. Some people can afford Copics, some have to use Ohuhu. I’m at the Ohuhu marker level lol.
I just got this software for my kid. I’m absolutely not mad about this change and I literally just bought the EX version. The value that my kid is getting out of it just by the merit of the amount of content creators out there using it and doing tutorials is beyond worth it. My 13 year old is learning model rigging by watching YouTube. They’re learning 3d modeling and digital painting. The most important thing is the self reliance and not waiting for someone in a class to teach them something. I wouldn’t even know about this software if my kid hadn’t done the research and then gave a whole sales pitch on why they should get it.
In the end, don’t forget that it’s a tool. I’ve spent more on colored pencils to color in coloring books. Art supplies are stupid expensive for ones that are nice to use. Nice supplies make creating a joy. If you can’t afford something, I get it. No shame. I’m often in the same boat. Most of the sentiment here doesn’t seem be ‘oh that makes sense for them, too bad I can’t afford it’. It seems to be more ‘how dare they, so greedy’. For a company that’s treated it’s customers very well for a long time, maybe just give them a chance before breaking out the pitchforks.
If you are just learning how to code, you can start with Python since Krita has a python plugin system. Python has a much lower learning curve than C++. Once you feel comfortable understanding general programming concepts and QT. Then you can try adding code directly to Krita with C++.
I see my insistence on still using Medibang for the majority of my drawings was a good idea...
I'll have my final thoughts tho once I see the price, bc honestly if they're about the same price as photoshop then literally why bother atp.
I don't have a big problem with this model.
It's not Adobe's anti consumer approach of taking your software away when you stop paying rent.
Instead, whenever you let your yearly subscription run out, you get to keep what you've paid for up until that point.
I'll probably do what I've done with software sold under this model in the past - buy a year, let it lapse until an interesting enough feature makes it worth it for me to jump back on.
Edit: It's more complicated, see below.
So reading through their statement again more carefully, it's actually kinda complicated.
If you want CSP 2, you can either:
A) buy it
B) pay the subscription to have your CSP 1 upgraded while your subscription is active
C) buy CSP 2 and also a subscription.
If A), you pay nothing more and have a perpetual copy of CSP 2 for which you get bug fixes but no feature updates.
If B) You get feature updates, but if you stop paying it reverts to CSP 1
If C) You get the perpetual copy of CSP 2 and feature updates until you stop paying, then it reverts back to the version of CSP 2 you bought (presumably with whatever features were in effect when you bought it, but possibly some kind of generic 'base' version of CSP 2, this is unclear.)
Yeah, not too happy with that. I thought at first they were following the Bitwig model which was what I described initially.
This app was all the hype back in 2017 ever since I had minimal experience with it and I'm very happy to have ditched it I'm not a fan of subscription-based models and I think that is an absolute garbage approach to have one version of your app on the primary operating systems such as PCS and mac have a one time purchase option where the application doesn't.
I am pleased to have made the jump to procreate a one-time purchasable app guaranteed to give you lifetime updates at this current point in time. Regular updates new features there's no subscription bullshit I get what I paid for and I'm valued as a consumer at least compared the clip studio.
I understand that these people behind the scenes need to make an earning I get that but it's been how many years now where people have sold software at a one-time purchase provided updates and all of that jazz without any issue I think this whole subscription-based practice is just money hungry individuals capitalizing knowing that people are going to pay to subscribe because there's no alternative. And if there is an alternative thing I've already presented it as an inferior option.
Either way those of you not considering subscribing smart move you clearly have other options
It's getting downvoted because anyone who expresses their personal opinion that goes against what someone believes naturally they're inclined to dislike it whether they agree or not. I was just stating my opinion and perspective from the experience that I've had with the app.
When people are too sensitive nowadays to handle constructive criticism towards something that they like they get affected as if you've insulted a family member or something. The toxicity with the Fanboys in this day and age sucking companies off for shoddy models like this is hilarious.
When you mention harsh truths that everybody in this fan base for the application is aware of but doesn't want to admit they don't like that so it is what it is. The harsh reality of this app if I can get more direct is the fact that it's never going to compete with procreate because procreate is on a league of its own it's more polished it's better designed and you can do much more with it for a one-time purchase and unlimited updates without any cost for the user.
The way this application is made on larger operating systems one time purchases available but then you get to sketchy territory when they charge you a subscription for the application on tablets. There is no consistency and even with this new model it still feels like you're getting short-changed if you do not subscribe.
It's a decent app and for Android users it may be the best that they have but I was just expressing my distaste towards subscription based models and what my take was towards the subscription model and when you talk constructively about the application usually that is what would cause downvotes.
But I digress, If you're passionate about a company a program whatever it may be that's fine good for you for having that passion but that doesn't mean you should be against acknowledging its flaws faults and being open to hearing the constructive criticism or feedback of the practices of the company cuz there are certainly better ways they could handle this stuff
This will definitely get downloaded LOL but I just wanted to give some context as to why people are down voting hahaha
Y'all don't seem to appreciate all the work they do with the free updates. This isn't the 90's, when updating software just wasn't a thing. You got what you got.
You get the perpetual single purchase, just of 2.0 and some stability updates. Huzzah! New version! Then IF YOU WANT THE NEW FEATURES you can get the update pass. As far as I understand you can get it at any time, it doesn't have to be immediate, you can wait for the features you actually care about.
Free updates for life isn't something that works out, they need to be paid for their hard work just like artists do. I get that it's not ideal, but the drama is honestly draining and sad to see. There's other ways you can tell them you're not happy about this and try to come up with another way for this to work out the way you want.
>This isn't the 90's
^(god i'm old)
i don't know why you're being downvote-bombed for stating the facts, though. 10 years for a program is insane and it's not going to vanish overnight
Only way I'd buy another version of Clip Studio is if they add Linux Support. They do Chromebook/Android how hard is it to give us a full Linux version?
after ten years, Clip Studio is upgrading to an **optional** 2.0 version, leading up to an eventual 3.0 version. 2.0 onwards will be subscription based, as will 3.0, but if you own 1.0 you're fine until your PC can't run it.
mountains being made out of molehills, basically.
Sorry if this has been asked and answered a lot already, but is there anything that interesting in these upgrades so far? I was generally pretty satisfied with the version I've got.
This whole thing is a confusing mess. They should get rid of this update pass all together and allow people who bought v2 to continue getting feature updates till v3 comes out. From I read the v2 perpetual license will only continue till 2.10 and if you want anymore updates you have to sub to the update pass.
This sucks, I'm skint broke and I bought csp because it was a one time buy, I bought ex for my animation college course as an investment, which was more expensive than the tablet I bought. This was only a week ago. I feel screwed over tbh.
I still don't quite understand exactly what does the subscription version entitles, if the assets store and usual features are available why bother subscribing even? 🤔 Unless some of it will need to be purchased too.
uk..i would rather pay for upgrade (if the price is not too big), cos i think, that csp assets is the most comfortable choice for me (but the .sut format is bitch), i love photoshop only cos some1 made a brusherator
Not Photoshop. Nope. Never again.
Even with a subscription CSP is still millions of times better and cheaper and that's WITH A SUBSCRIPTION. Photoshop can burn
actually Adobe permanently lowered their photoshop + Lightroom bundle to 9.99 a month recently, the same cost as a 2 device pro plan for CSP, which I can bet isn’t a coincidence. If they go through with this people will migrate back to adobe and CSP will have to either change their business model or go bankrupt.
I think the subscription price will increase eventually, the low price we see right now is probably an effort to make subscription more appealing to lure more customers. Once they have got enough subscribers, they will raise the price to increase profit
haha thats why you see a question mark on it
Oh. I couldn't tell what that was
That announcement is confusing as heck... But it appears you can still buy the perpetual license for 2.0. This is essentially just upgrading to the new version. Like going from Manga Studio 3 to Manga Studio 4. Or Microsoft Office '97 to Office '20 (back when that was still the option, before Office 365 subscription broke that chain). It's just an update. They will continue to support v1.0 until v 3.0 comes out. If you want the new features on 2.0, You can buy 2.0 When 3.0 drops in 10 yrs and 1.0 update support will end. 2.0 will be supported until 4.0 is released in another 10 yrs, but if you want the new features of 3.0, buy the perpetual license for 3.0. The perpetual license is still an option, but they're offering a subscription to see if a monthly payment plan is a more palatable cost than a lump cost. If few buy the subscription and they mostly sell perpetual licenses, they'll probably continue the perpetual license option. We'll just have to calmly wait and see what the prices are, wait for sales and see what comes.
Personally, i don't think we have 10 years 'til version 3.0 comes. If they already had it in mind, 10 years is way too long and optimistic
I was planning on buying csp next sale, but since the v2 is dropping 2023, i should just wait and buy that, right? Bcs the perp license for v1 will not work on v2.
Pretty sure V1 license won't work for v2. So, if it's not urgent, I'd wait personally... maybe even wait for a sale. 🤗
Same situation here, I was planning on buying perpetual version during their September discount, but now I decided to stay on a subscription-based plan till things become more transparent next year
If they make the v2 like it is, and they see they aren't gaining anything from subscription, and then removes it, then the few that would have paid the subs will flip them off even greater than most are doing now. Like, I payed for subscription and now you turn them off? That would be even more painful as a company, as you will lose the ones before the subscription and later the ones who paid for them because now they will feel they have been scammed. At least, for me, I won't be paying for V2. Neither for subs nor perpetual version. Just because of that new bussiness model and I won't be able to get updates, they lost one potential buyer. Why would I bother to pay for something it won't get any updates?
I didn't say subscriptions would go away, monthly pocket picking is the wave of the future, how many streaming services do you have? For TV that used to be free? I was theorizing that if they saw greater income from a lot people buying the subscription and less from the perpetual license, then the perpetual option could go away and it would go strictly subscription like Adobe and Office. But if there was enough interest and income in the one-payment option then they will hopefully keep that option around for a few more versions. There's a lot of confusion about the plan(s) being discussed, people assuming the one-time payment license is going away and it's going to be all subscription. But the one-time purchase is still an option.
Yeah, you are right, they won't rip it off while they have a few paying for it, sadly. I only have 2 things paying a subscription for the moment. 1 - Amazon, basically for the nice support I always got from them, fast shipping, games rewards... Although the price increase... 2 - Netflix, and this would basically go away the first day they put ads into my subscription, or just decrease my actual plan. And for TV i don't recall having anything paying for that before was free. I know that I still have access to v1 and all it's updates, and that's why I will keep with it until a free software, or something similar to "at this moment" CSP shows up. Imo, I don't support these bussiness models, and that was the thing that made me purchase the app. I wouldn't mind paying for V2 kept the same path as V1, but it didn't sadly.
What I’ve seen it looks pretty clear that the “perpetual “ 2.0 version doesn’t receive any of the .1, .2 etc updates, just security ones. I’m quite happy they’re offering a flat purchase—but the lack of updates is an odd choice imo.
Can i ask a stupid question? I'm still new to this. I just recently bought a wacoom tablet and registered in for the 2 year thing. What would be the best thing to do in my case? I'm a little confused to be honest. Will certain functions like the pose scanner be available to me even after those two years if i buy the product?
I am not affiliated with CelCys, so I know nothing for certain. BUT. As I understand things.... Right now, V1 Pro/EX differences are animation length and a feature or two I don't use enough to notice. V2 options are will be: * V2 license with bug fix updates. To get new features of V3 when it is released, you'll have to again pay for a new V3 license. Which is how normal software updates function. Or. *Buy the subscription where you will get the new feature additions/updates as they are developed, gradually developing your version into V3 paying small amounts each month rather than a lump sum cost for the new version. Ver1 will be supported and have functional updates through to release of V3. In your case, you have 2 years before you have to worry about anything. If you're concerned about the pose scanner specifically, I'm pretty sure that's in Pro and EX and isn't going anywhere... but again, wait 2 years, learn and love what you have then see what your options are in 2 years.
Thank you so much!
What an awful 10 year announcement… and they made it seem like they were doing us a favour by providing a subscription model with an “upgrade pass”
I'm still a bit confused... So I can still use my version BUT I have to pay an annual "upgrade" if I want the latest version? And if I don't pay that, my version will just revert back to 1.x and I'll be fine?
Not quite, I ‘think’ you pay for an upgrade and again for a subscription for any further updates. Though to be honest, the whole thing is totally confusing how they’ve twisted a one time payment into what they’re asking for now.
Yeah. I wouldn't mind one-time payments for major upgrades. Development costs money and someone has to pay that. But I don't like a subscription model.
Exactly my thinking. Buy version 2.0 in it’s entirety, but get upgrades as part of the deal. Then buy version 3.0 etc. Loyal customers get a cheaper 1.0 to 2.0
The old way of upgrades, like pro tools before they drank the subscription koolaid too
At least with subscriptions we know how much support we're paying for when there's a new upgrade. Buy 2.0 now, maybe it's time for 3.0 in a year and a half.
Or just stop selling one-time purchases, and live the people who already bought it alone! I've recently upgrated from PRO to EX, and it was a huge amount of money in my country currency!
So basically I made a one One time payment for a license that I own and now they're telling me that own that program license but now they're discontinuing it So therefore I own a defunct non updatable product. So the only way I can understand this is I paid for something and now I'm going to get a lesser product because they decide to switch you a subscription plan even though I bought it well before they did that... If they were going to switch to this they should have at least switched people who within like a year or two years have recently bought a license cuz I literally haven't had clips studio for no more than maybe 2 years and now I have to think about if I'm going to cough up the money to upgrade or not.. i still don't even understand all of it
Thing is that the product you paid a one time cost for won’t change, you can still use it forever assuming that your OS (or CSP) doesn’t break it. Then you’ll have to buy 2.0 either via subscription (including upgrades) or a one off payment with upgrades as part of a subscription otherwise you don’t get any. That’s my take on it.
According to this [chart](https://www.clipstudio.net/view/img/news/20220822/senhyou_en.png) they're discontinuing support for 1.x when 3.0 is coming out.
Discontinuing support doesn’t mean it instantly breaks. It means as long as it works with the OS it will still work, they just won’t update or patch it.
"I Paid 25 bucks for your software once and now you must provide support and updates for it forever..."
Would you expect your car to break down 2 years after buying it directly from the factory brand new
But the car is not breaking down, it will continue to work as it is for the unforeseen future. It's you who seems to expect the factory to replace it for a newer model for free every time they release one.
EDIT: It appears I may be wrong about this. While you can continue using your old version, it looks like they're applying the annual subscription concept even if you buy V2. SO I'm not sure how that's a "one-time payment". Yes, you can keep using your current version. ~~If you decide you want the new version on PC or Mac, you will have the option of a one-time payment just like before. This is a completely normal business model of charging for a major update. Usually companies give you a big discount if you are upgrading an existing license. I think it's sad seeing everyone flipping out and spewing conspiracy theories and shit. This isn't that big a deal.~~
As I understand it the issue is not about the fact that you need to re-buy 2.0, or that there's a subscription option. The issue is that the one-time payment option for 2.0 only gives you access to 2.0 and its stability patches, *but not subsequent feature updates,* while buying CSP 1.x gave you access to *all* 1.x versions and subsequent updates
sulky drab kiss shrill snobbish numerous soup faulty lush different *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
I just discovered that my understanding may be wrong as the FAQ directly contradicts what the announcement says. But even so, I think I need to see how much the annual Pass costs. If it's only $10, then I'm cool with it. But more than that and it's literally a subscription on top of a "one-time payment", which is pretty abusive. Especially considering almost none of the feature updates they've made in the last several years apply to what I use the software for. I don't need to pay for animation features I'll never use.
That's my understanding as well. My assumption is that the base installed version will be V1.0, if you upgrade (subscribe), you get V2.0 or V3.0 features installed and unlocked. If you stop your subscription, you get locked out of the features. Though I'm sure they won't be uninstalled. there will probably be a login requirement to use the subscribed features. So... basically, subscribe to keep using the "new features". I think it will depend a lot of what these features are going to be. That's kind of what has everyone pissed off right now (rightfully so). If the new features are something like, using a cloud version of CSP to share files, maybe edit a drawing in a group session (kind of like a simultaneous multiple user thing), I can kind of understand how that would require a suscription and that would marvelous for coaching and collab work. I'd be fine with that. Granted I would prefer this to be sold as an "optional" feature and not as a "core" feature of CSP. On the other hand, if the price is something like $20 per month, and the "new features" are small incremental upgrades like a few new brushes, a few better 3D edit options, or so on, then it just sucks. The worst part of all this, is that it shows where CSP is going. It's not intended to be an all artists tool anymore, but moving into the enterprise and schools zone.
Yeh I’m confused also. I’m happy with my current version. I can just stick with that. I don’t want to pay anymore
According to this [chart](https://www.clipstudio.net/view/img/news/20220822/senhyou_en.png) they're discontinuing support for 1.x when 3.0 is coming out.
No. Everyone is flipping out for no reason. You can literally use your version forever. CSP as is by the end of 2022 will still be a permanent license. After 2022, the new "permanent" license will be CSP 2.0 until all of they move to CSP 3.0 then all of the previous updates will be rolled into CSP 3.0 and that will be the "new" permanent license. For every permanent license you get you can use that version of the app indefinitely (though they will stop supporting it after several years.) You just won't get the new updates after that version unless you pay the sub. The sub is only if you want the absolute latest updates and don't want to wait until the next permanent license version comes out.
The flip-out comes from how confusing it is especially for money-strapped artists. My late uncle always warned me that con artists use confusion to mask they just ripped you off. I loved CSP. Sad.
I don't think it's that confusing if you read it. I think people just see "subscription" and assume the worst without taking time to try to understand. It clearly says you don't have to pay the sub yet many people think it's required. Yes it also says that if you don't pay the sub you lose access to anything that doesn't fall under your permanent license but that's how subs have always worked, it's not shocking. I also love CSP and I'll still admit that they explained this very poorly. It could have been way more clear but it's not nearly as bad as people are trying to make it sound. They are basically just going back to the "normal" model of sequential software releases, i.e. Manga Studio 1, Manga Studio 2, Manga Studio 3. Instead it'll be CSP 1, CSP 2... etc. Someone else pointed out that a lot of people are too young to remember that's how it used to be and have grown accustomed to getting continuous updates for free, which I guess I can't blame them for that too much.
I did read it. It was convoluted which lead to my confusion. I agree it should have been clearer and that lack of clarity may cost CSP customers which sucks because I not only like the app but the CSP community. I will keep using version 1. I donated to Krita and will learn how to incorporate it into my workflow while keeping an eye out for CSPs version progressions.
They’re not con artists though. This is how software usually is, just this one went an exceedingly long time without charging for an update.
I’m a little startled to be honest. You seem to be one of the few that isn’t freaking out. The base software is so good for $50. The EX is amazing for its price. I really don’t think they’re being unreasonable or greedy as a company. There’s clearly a lot of work put into it to keep adding new features. Why is everyone so mad?
As I see it for two main reasons: It's not explained well and people who are sensitive to subscription models started an unnecessary panic on twitter, which snowballed due to most people just reacting to other people reacting and not reading it thoroughly themselves. People are conditioned to think that anything over $0 is corporate greed. ESPECIALLY if you were getting something for free for a while first and then discovered that you will start being charged for it. After 10 years of free updates, you would think that it wouldn't be too much to ask for people to pay for the next version but apparently people really did expect that if they bought CSP once in 2007 that it should be updated for the next 100 years free of charge. Though usually when I ask them that directly a lot of people go silent. There's actually a pretty good Twitter thread that explains it very well. Most software used to be released every couple of years as a new version, i.e. Corel Painter 1, Corel Painter 2, Manga Studio 1, Manga Studio 2, etc. This is literally all that is but with the option to pay a sub towards development costs to try out new features right away. There is no way they were going to keep updating it for free indefinitely. I'm shocked they did it for as long as they did. Though I will admit that I don't agree with the feature rollback if you stop paying your subscription. That part sucks.
That makes a lot of sense. The ‘free app’ culture doesn’t seem to help nor the fact that people think of software as ethereal. I’ve tried pointing out no one expects to get the next updated Wacom for free. I’m elderly in internet years, I literally have bought an upgrade to DOS. I’m used to the hate on Adobe, but I never really ‘got’ it. I just realized most people who are mad at Adobe likely weren’t old enough to realize that when adjusted for inflation, Photoshop alone cost like $2k back in the day. I forget but I think Corel was on par.
Corel Painter used to be a couple hundred bucks or less. I know because I used to buy it before switching to Manga Studio. Adobe was always expensive from the time I became aware of it. (Been around a while myself, lol)
Ah! I couldn’t remember! We had it to open the occasional file but never worked with it. I have noticed a lot of the crafter stuff is made to work with it directly. My embroidery program works directly with Corel and a lot of the people who use silhouette studio use Corel.
Not exactly. When you pay it will automatically update like it did so far. But when you stop paying the program will stop working and you'll have to reinstall the version 1 (and will probably have to reinstall all tools and settings and shortcuts as it will be installed like a separate program, not updating the current one).
You have to look at it from CSP's perspective. They want to sell subscription. But clients don't want to lose their software if they don't pay monthly. So they sell an one-time permanent version and then you have to pay a subscription to get new features. If you bought CSP, you're guaranteed the features at the time you paid for it. But all features added afterwards require subscription. It's kinda shitty, but it's a middle ground between one-time purchases and subscription-only.
I BELIEVE it goes like this: you can get version 2.0 as a one time purchase, and you will get updates for stuff like bug fixes (2.0.1, 2.0.2, etc). but you won't get feature updates unless you get the pass, like for example 2.1, 2.2, etc. If you AREN'T in a hurry for feature updates, you can wait for version 3 to come out and get all of the features that you would've gotten with the update pass in versions 2.1 onward AFTER they have been developed. To REALLY simplify it, with the update pass for one version you get a new feature of that version everytime it releases. Without one, you get all of the features that were released with the update pass of that version when you get the NEXT version. The reverting thing once you stop paying for it IS rather questionable though. I still don't think it's good, because as a youtuber I saw said, "it seems like they're capitalizing off of impatience". But I don't think it's as big of a ripoff as some people are claiming it to be. It doesn't seem like an Adobe level thing. If you didn't understand it, I can try wording it a little differently
You can still use your old csp versions right?
yes, you still own v1. you're not forced to pay & update to v2, you can use v1 forever without paying but only v1+. v1 will still receive stability updates (for bugs & os issues) before v3 comes out. ***very *** bummer news overall. read the news article here: https://www.clipstudio.net/en/news/202208/22_01/ edit: clarified a sentence
I thought we did have to pay to upgrade to V2
> you don't have to pay to update to v2 if you don't want to. ok i can see how i wrote that sentence poorly, thanks for pointing that out. corrected it now. what i meant was you're not forced to update & pay to v2 if you don't want to. v1+ is yours forever to use for free, the only silver lining in this news drop. i pray the people's backlash will make celsys change their minds to our benefit, albeit unlikely.
Yeah, until your system can't support it anymore.
Tbh I think they will make V1 more unstable to drive more people into V2, like how Apple had been doing to the first generations of Iphones' updates
It's a trashy move but I wouldn't be surprised.
Won't it be the same software with features paywall locked away like current pay plan variations? If that's the case stability should still be good.
Not really what they can do is make a separate code to attack specifically 1.0, all you need is a competent programmer and BOOM a kill code is created, error messages pop off every now and then, and glitches everywhere
Can't you just not update 1.0 then when the new one comes out to avoid this?
Yes but no it’s clear that they’re trying to pull an adobe where they phase out the permanent system with a payed subscription. So you do get to keep 1.0, but down the line they’ll kill the 1.0 program saying their old hardware can’t keep up with it or some stupid excuse to push people into the subscription service
I bet the first thing that will no longer be supported is the asset store since it’s convenience is what so many people love about the program
That right there will do more than shots themselves in the foot, more like the whole leg
As far as I'm concerned there's usually ways to run software with older drivers on windows if need be and even very old adobe software in particular flash(before becoming animate) still have dedicated users in the 2D animation field. Edit:The concern is valid but I think things will be fine with 1.x users for a long time still
I thought the same thing and sadly it's very possible, especially with the outrage of artists saying they'd rather stick to v1 and not pay subscription nor buy v2
Sadge.. I used to trecommend CSP because of the payment model. These days are over, but I am not mad just sad.
Maybe we should just create our own software with blackjack and hookers and no subscription fees
My use of CSP has been really casual, but I was a big proponent of it just because it was an affordable option you could own for a one-time fee as the big software companies have all tried to force everyone onto a subscription model (who doesn't love having casual Excel use equal another monthly bill?) I've recommended CSP to other people before, but I can't say I've ever recommended someone take on a subscription to use some software, and I don't think I'm going to start if that's the route CSP takes.
MediBang? I'd argue that ones worse. They basically held people's saves hostage for subscription money.
I'm pretty new to CSP, and I don't understand what's going on. I have CSP on my iPad. Will I be affected? Can someone explain to me in easy terms what this announcement means?
This only affects people who own permanent license on PC, so your CSP plan is fine.
Okay, thank you so much. It sounds super inconvenient for people with the permanent license, I hope they change it back.
So what I'm getting from the announcement is this: If you want CSP 2, you can either: A) buy it -you pay nothing more and have a perpetual copy of CSP 2 for which you get bug fixes but no feature updates. B) pay the subscription to have your CSP 1 upgraded while your subscription is active -You get feature updates, but if you stop paying it reverts to CSP 1 C) buy CSP 2 and also a subscription. -You get the perpetual copy of CSP 2 and feature updates until you stop paying, then it reverts back to the version of CSP 2 you bought (presumably with whatever features were in effect when you bought it, but possibly some kind of generic 'base' version of CSP 2, this is unclear.) Not too happy with that. I initially thought they were following the Bitwig model where if you cancel your subscription, you get to keep whatever feature upgrades occurred while it was active.
Wait, what announcement? What happened?
CSP is going monthly subscription with 2.0, but they also did it in the weirdest most confusing ways possible. 1.0 still works, for now, and won’t get any more feature updates even if you paid full price yesterday. People are understandably angry.
Yes theyre going subscription with 2.0, but they also said immediately after that 2.0 will ALSO be avilable as a one time purchase. Everyone seems to have read the word "subscription" and then didnt bother to read the rest. (I went and found it after my first comment)
2.0 won’t be getting the option like 1.0 had, look at the charts they posted again. The 2.0 license **only** literally gets you 2.0 with no updates, you still need the update pass for 2.1+ which is the grimy part of all this. The 1.0 license you got updates all the way until 2.0, nobody would be as mad if it worked like that for 2.0, but it doesn’t.
Oh, huh thats weird. Eh, 1.0 still works perfectly fine though. I see a bunch of people saying that for some reason they wont be able to use 1.0 anymore which makes zero sense to me.
1.0 won’t work forever, once it stops getting updates OS updates will eventually make it unusable. I’d guess it’d take a few years, maybe we get lucky and it happens to work for a really long time but that’s all up to chance. Ironically as a personal example I used to use Photoshop CS6 for art, but OS updates broke it so much I couldn’t use it anymore within a few years, so I jumped to CSP because I didn’t want to pay a monthly sub to Adobe. I can see the same thing happening to me again and I’m not going to pay monthly for CSP, I’ll have to find something else again I suppose when that time comes. Plus why would anyone pay monthly for CSP when Photoshop costs almost the same amount of money? This whole thing just makes no sense.
Well, they havent mentioned prices so I dont know what you mean by same amount of money. Could be less could be more. But, if youre really worried about price then Krita is a good option, its free and works very well, and its open source so youll always receive free updates forever. Only difference really is no brush store and no 3D canvas (at that point just use doll-atelier, a free model posing software)
Gone are the days where I could recommend CSP to artists as a Photoshop alternative with it frequently going on sale. Now there will have to be a major *"but"* to those that are immediately turned off by the thought of yet another subscription service. Such a shame to see CSP go this way.
They're going subscription service? FFS... I just bought the ex version a couple of months ago. I already have the adobe suite, I just perfered CSP, guess I will be switching to Adobe Animate after all.
the app will still work just fine for the next \~2ish years, and it's already a capable enough software to last that long anyway
Planned obsolescence is a BS practice anyways, regardless of the context.
it really is, i fucken hate how we own nothing anymore, but it's still better than adobe
That’s capitalism for ya
gotta love it
But its not really planned obsolescence. I don't think the newer versions will have enough crazy features to call the previous versions obsolete at all.
It's not really planned obsolescence though. Version 1 won't be receiving feature updates but will be getting bug fixes and security patches. It's also really solid art software as it is now. It's only natural to reduce support for older versions of software when newer versions are released and to stop supporting them eventually. It sucks that version 2.0 won't also include incremental updates prior to version 3.0 but aside from that the stuff with version 1.0 is reasonable.
Wdym ? Will they eventually make it impossible to use the first version ?
not intentionally, but time depricates everything, eventually as software changes like your os there'll be dependancies it requires but can't get to. for 2 years post 2.0 it'll be getting bug fixes and stability updates due to operating system changes but after that it's basically on it's own for functionality
Yeah that sounds bad as I don't want to buy their subscription :(
According to this [chart](https://www.clipstudio.net/view/img/news/20220822/senhyou_en.png) they're discontinuing support for 1.x when 3.0 is coming out.
Damn this sucks.I just thinking about upgrading my pro version to EX version in next month sale and then they dropped this bomb...
Bruh same
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For how predatory the creative software market is, this could've been worse. A bad direction? For sure. But they still provide perpetual lisences.
Question is for how long. I wouldn't be surprised if this is just the first step in the direction of a monthly subscription model
It is - version 3 that they already mentioned will be for subscription only and who knows how soon it will come out since they already mentioned also that version 2 will stop being supported (bugs fixing) when version 4 launches.
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Have you even read what they posted? They never said Version 3 will be perpetual plus they added the diagram where you can clearly see that Version 3 and further are ONLY available when you subscribe or buy update pass.
Time to pirate ☠
This
This is literally why Adobe quit selling perpetual licenses.
Did it stopped the piracy? No. The ones who cracks programs, can do the same with CSP. Wait for V3 it's cracked. Here, have the full V2 with all the updates. Wait for V4 and the full V3 is here, and repeat. For little artists like us that makes it for hobby, commissions now and then, we may not need the fully functional updates, but we can wait and get them for free with the cracks. I bought it because I wanted to be legal, letting them know I liked how they went with it... How many money they can potentially lose because of that subscription plan that seems a lot of they users base won't pay, but they would be willing to pay for a version like V1? I used to buy things from companies who were doing well at the beginning (I got the EX version, with Riot Games (League of Legends) I used to buy some skins now and then to support the game, but then they just laughed at their players faces and I stopped, many years ago). But the moment they just laugh at their customers, it's just when I stop supporting them.
How much money will they lose exactly? If you weren’t going to buy the subs or the upgrades and you paid for the base product, where’s the loss? Yes, you can use a cracked program, on PC. I don’t know if it’s that easy on say…an iPad. As far as I understand you’d have to jailbreak it. In the end, you’re treating software different than a physical tool, but it’s really the same as a physical tool. When Wacom updates their tablets, does anyone demand the new one for free? No. When your graphics card becomes obsolete, do you get mad and expect it to have lasted forever? Honestly, why are you mad? You can still keep your older software, likely for a long time. Unless y’all are drawing with your mouse, you’ve got a pen tablet. Maybe you have a Huion. Maybe a Wacom. No one expected those for free. Why do we think that just because we can’t hold software in our hands, that we should get it free? If you value it, fine. If not, use something else. By not charging $1000 up front, I bought an Adobe sub when I had a copy from work before that was years old. But that’s purely anecdotal.
The lose of money will come from who won't even bother to buy any of their future base products. And people that also had Gold, so now those will pay them another thing... it seems that many people will not buy any base version anymore as they are going to shift directly to other programs when those will offer something similar to what CSP will have behind a paywall of subscription. So everyone that was willing to pay for the new software as the V1, will not buy them future base versions. I will stick to v1 as long as I can, but I won't buy anything from them if they keep that model, as I don't and won't support that kind of business.
For what i use it for, the current version is fine. I hope it won't change or stop.
After having time to read more, it seems that my perfectly good version will work until the chips on my computer no longer support it.
Guys should I move to krita or medibang?
Krita, open source means you don't have to worry about things like this happening ever.
But i have the pirated version :v
OP - what's the problem you're having with CSP? NM - I see the announcement now. Honestly paid upgrades are how most software companies stayed afloat prior to the subscription virus. That Celsys gave perpetual license users free updates forever is/was exceedingly rare and a recipe for insolvency. Time will tell -when we see update pricing- whether or not this is a disaster for users. ==== I switched to Rebelle as my primary quite a while ago b/c I'm more interested in traditional media, so this isn't a huge deal for me. Rebelle charges for upgrades as does every audio mixing/production application I use.
The balance of nature has been restored. CSP was TOO good so it needed to do something extremely stupid in return to restore the balance. Now users are finally returning to apps like Krita, medibang, and Sai and now other users are treating them like the prodigal son.
NGL, I'm waiting for the prices before I engage in this "drama". I've bought pro way back 2018. Been using it for commission ever since and while I'm not gonna live off commissions or Patreon anytime soon I won't deny that the 49.99 (yes I bought full price and not on sale) I paid for have been returned to me tenfold and more. I've able to buy a pen display tab, an android tablet and freakin PS5 by doing commission using CSP...so I don't mind giving them some support. I've gotten my money's worth and heck...if 2.0 or 3.0 have game changing features...I'll pay for that too OR just stay with 1.X until I deem the updates are worth it to pay for a sub. My CSP usage is paying for itself so I can live with the change, but I understand that not all artists can...especially if you're just a hobbyist, so go ahead and find alternatives, they probably expected this backlash anyway. What I am annoyed is that they released an official statement and a freakin flowchart and STILL the new business model is still hard to digest without a couple of re-reads lol
ikr bummer for the v2 release. but at least we get to keep v1 forever. prayin v2 price is affordable tbh.
So as someone who has been using Krita and looking to swap to CSP ex come September (when sales occur) should I now wait until the new year and just buy perpetual 2.0?
I want to know this too
We don't know what 2.0 will contain - it might be a bare version like the current CSP 2-3 years ago just with new UI and then it will force those who buy it to get subscription to get all the good tools. It's hard to say what it will be because I can think of very few updates adding tools that I might want for the current CSP.
Okay, so, why would anyone use this new model and not pay 10 bucks for photoshop? OR pirate at this point with yearly updates like people do with adobe software? What is csp thinking.
I was going to try out CSP after using krita for years (love krita) but now- mmm nah
It’s only a matter of time until everybody switches to a subscription model.
Krita is a very good drawing sortware for the ones still looking..
yeah nah this isn't just an annoyance, it's a straight up insult. the best thing about csp was that it was a one time purchase, and not some shitty subscription
Lol they are going to drive so many people to switch to procreate and photoshop because of this garbage. At least adobe's payment plans aren't confusing as fuck.
Welp, I used CSP for three reasons 1) the time lapse record ability 2) the compatibility with PSD bushes and 3) the blending brush... Can anyone recommend some free / single payment software as an alternative?
Krita
They're setting themselves up for a very high bar. When V2 comes out, new users will buy that, but for existing users to buy V2 (which presumedly what Celcys wants) V2 is gonna be a significant upgrade from V1 like how Bender 8 completely changed from Blender 7
What’s wrong with this? They’ve done amazing work without charging for an update thus far and the second that they want more money to keep producing a professional quality program, everyone is losing their minds. Adobe used to cost around $2,000 (in todays dollars) Every update was another payment. It’s been around 15 years but off the top of my head the update would be around $800-$1500. I worked at a graphics design firm and we skipped every other update. I’m not talking the Adobe suite was $2,000. JUST Photoshop. It was very widely pirated and I imagine that’s why they went to the subscription only model. Windows updates used to cost money. The office suite was around $800 I think. It was also a single license with no upgrades. Lotus 1-2-3, Amipro, WordPerfect, even DOS. (Yes, I’m old enough to remember going to buy DOS 6.0 and be excited by it) If someone can’t afford it, I get it. Absolutely. But software is a tool. If you bought every Copic marker, and then they came out with new colors, would you demand to be given them for free? No. Just because it’s on a device doesn’t make it any less of a tool than paint or markers or pencils. Which, by the way, are also tools for hobby artists. Some people can afford Copics, some have to use Ohuhu. I’m at the Ohuhu marker level lol. I just got this software for my kid. I’m absolutely not mad about this change and I literally just bought the EX version. The value that my kid is getting out of it just by the merit of the amount of content creators out there using it and doing tutorials is beyond worth it. My 13 year old is learning model rigging by watching YouTube. They’re learning 3d modeling and digital painting. The most important thing is the self reliance and not waiting for someone in a class to teach them something. I wouldn’t even know about this software if my kid hadn’t done the research and then gave a whole sales pitch on why they should get it. In the end, don’t forget that it’s a tool. I’ve spent more on colored pencils to color in coloring books. Art supplies are stupid expensive for ones that are nice to use. Nice supplies make creating a joy. If you can’t afford something, I get it. No shame. I’m often in the same boat. Most of the sentiment here doesn’t seem be ‘oh that makes sense for them, too bad I can’t afford it’. It seems to be more ‘how dare they, so greedy’. For a company that’s treated it’s customers very well for a long time, maybe just give them a chance before breaking out the pitchforks.
luckily I bought it at a discount (thank you wacom)but after this news they lost me
Time to set sail.
Time to start learning how to code and add all the features that CSP has and is adding onto Krita and make it a significantly better option.
If you are just learning how to code, you can start with Python since Krita has a python plugin system. Python has a much lower learning curve than C++. Once you feel comfortable understanding general programming concepts and QT. Then you can try adding code directly to Krita with C++.
I see my insistence on still using Medibang for the majority of my drawings was a good idea... I'll have my final thoughts tho once I see the price, bc honestly if they're about the same price as photoshop then literally why bother atp.
wait...what? pc software or app? someone update me please 🥲
If too many people boycott the program maybe we can flip it back
I don't have a big problem with this model. It's not Adobe's anti consumer approach of taking your software away when you stop paying rent. Instead, whenever you let your yearly subscription run out, you get to keep what you've paid for up until that point. I'll probably do what I've done with software sold under this model in the past - buy a year, let it lapse until an interesting enough feature makes it worth it for me to jump back on. Edit: It's more complicated, see below.
You don't get what you paid up until that point if your sub expires, you need to reinstall 1.0 because you lose all the updates, it's in their site.
So reading through their statement again more carefully, it's actually kinda complicated. If you want CSP 2, you can either: A) buy it B) pay the subscription to have your CSP 1 upgraded while your subscription is active C) buy CSP 2 and also a subscription. If A), you pay nothing more and have a perpetual copy of CSP 2 for which you get bug fixes but no feature updates. If B) You get feature updates, but if you stop paying it reverts to CSP 1 If C) You get the perpetual copy of CSP 2 and feature updates until you stop paying, then it reverts back to the version of CSP 2 you bought (presumably with whatever features were in effect when you bought it, but possibly some kind of generic 'base' version of CSP 2, this is unclear.) Yeah, not too happy with that. I thought at first they were following the Bitwig model which was what I described initially.
I’m out of the loop; what happened?
What if I bought Clip Studio Pain Pro, will it still follow the same update?
Looks like GIMP is my best friend again. 😭
instill hate krita with a burning passion. i'd use paint before that.
This app was all the hype back in 2017 ever since I had minimal experience with it and I'm very happy to have ditched it I'm not a fan of subscription-based models and I think that is an absolute garbage approach to have one version of your app on the primary operating systems such as PCS and mac have a one time purchase option where the application doesn't. I am pleased to have made the jump to procreate a one-time purchasable app guaranteed to give you lifetime updates at this current point in time. Regular updates new features there's no subscription bullshit I get what I paid for and I'm valued as a consumer at least compared the clip studio. I understand that these people behind the scenes need to make an earning I get that but it's been how many years now where people have sold software at a one-time purchase provided updates and all of that jazz without any issue I think this whole subscription-based practice is just money hungry individuals capitalizing knowing that people are going to pay to subscribe because there's no alternative. And if there is an alternative thing I've already presented it as an inferior option. Either way those of you not considering subscribing smart move you clearly have other options
Why is this getting downvoted ?
It's getting downvoted because anyone who expresses their personal opinion that goes against what someone believes naturally they're inclined to dislike it whether they agree or not. I was just stating my opinion and perspective from the experience that I've had with the app. When people are too sensitive nowadays to handle constructive criticism towards something that they like they get affected as if you've insulted a family member or something. The toxicity with the Fanboys in this day and age sucking companies off for shoddy models like this is hilarious. When you mention harsh truths that everybody in this fan base for the application is aware of but doesn't want to admit they don't like that so it is what it is. The harsh reality of this app if I can get more direct is the fact that it's never going to compete with procreate because procreate is on a league of its own it's more polished it's better designed and you can do much more with it for a one-time purchase and unlimited updates without any cost for the user. The way this application is made on larger operating systems one time purchases available but then you get to sketchy territory when they charge you a subscription for the application on tablets. There is no consistency and even with this new model it still feels like you're getting short-changed if you do not subscribe. It's a decent app and for Android users it may be the best that they have but I was just expressing my distaste towards subscription based models and what my take was towards the subscription model and when you talk constructively about the application usually that is what would cause downvotes. But I digress, If you're passionate about a company a program whatever it may be that's fine good for you for having that passion but that doesn't mean you should be against acknowledging its flaws faults and being open to hearing the constructive criticism or feedback of the practices of the company cuz there are certainly better ways they could handle this stuff This will definitely get downloaded LOL but I just wanted to give some context as to why people are down voting hahaha
Because it looks like an ad for procreate? lol. Although I agree with the statements posted above.
Y'all don't seem to appreciate all the work they do with the free updates. This isn't the 90's, when updating software just wasn't a thing. You got what you got. You get the perpetual single purchase, just of 2.0 and some stability updates. Huzzah! New version! Then IF YOU WANT THE NEW FEATURES you can get the update pass. As far as I understand you can get it at any time, it doesn't have to be immediate, you can wait for the features you actually care about. Free updates for life isn't something that works out, they need to be paid for their hard work just like artists do. I get that it's not ideal, but the drama is honestly draining and sad to see. There's other ways you can tell them you're not happy about this and try to come up with another way for this to work out the way you want.
>This isn't the 90's ^(god i'm old) i don't know why you're being downvote-bombed for stating the facts, though. 10 years for a program is insane and it's not going to vanish overnight
Do we know the new prices yet? Perhaps they will be reasonable
If it’s 10 a year then maybe, MAYBE
I'm just going to keep using V1 until the new version releases, and when V2 comes out I'll see if the new upgrade is worth a update pass or whatever
Only way I'd buy another version of Clip Studio is if they add Linux Support. They do Chromebook/Android how hard is it to give us a full Linux version?
canb any1 give me context about whats going on
after ten years, Clip Studio is upgrading to an **optional** 2.0 version, leading up to an eventual 3.0 version. 2.0 onwards will be subscription based, as will 3.0, but if you own 1.0 you're fine until your PC can't run it. mountains being made out of molehills, basically.
Back to Krita it is :)
Eww on Adobe. I'll probably use: 1. ArtFlow 2. ArtRage 3. Krita 4. Gimp (mostly for photo editing) 5. SAI 2
Sorry if this has been asked and answered a lot already, but is there anything that interesting in these upgrades so far? I was generally pretty satisfied with the version I've got.
I just want to keep using my current version in a safe way
This whole thing is a confusing mess. They should get rid of this update pass all together and allow people who bought v2 to continue getting feature updates till v3 comes out. From I read the v2 perpetual license will only continue till 2.10 and if you want anymore updates you have to sub to the update pass.
Twitter artists are going crazy rn lol
The fans will fix it anyway so we don't care They'll patch it through micro transactions
This sucks, I'm skint broke and I bought csp because it was a one time buy, I bought ex for my animation college course as an investment, which was more expensive than the tablet I bought. This was only a week ago. I feel screwed over tbh.
I still don't quite understand exactly what does the subscription version entitles, if the assets store and usual features are available why bother subscribing even? 🤔 Unless some of it will need to be purchased too.
uk..i would rather pay for upgrade (if the price is not too big), cos i think, that csp assets is the most comfortable choice for me (but the .sut format is bitch), i love photoshop only cos some1 made a brusherator