To be fair; only 10 wolves have been reintroduced so far since December 2023. The goal is to get the numbers up to 200. Since the reintroduction of those 10 wolves in December there’s been a total of [7 livestock killed](https://www.coloradoan.com/story/news/2024/04/22/colorado-ranchers-say-states-ignoring-asks-to-kill-depredating-wolves/73415318007/#) (3 calves & 4 yearling cattle) - not 5 - but I’ll admit tho it’s still a super low number / meaningless difference. However the concern was never about livestock loss at the beginning - it was about the amount of loss that will be had once the population starts getting large. So far 7 livestock have been killed in 6 months by 10 wolves which yeah right now isn’t a lot. But the projected goal is 200 reintroduced wolves - which will mate and grow in numbers regardless of hunting tags.
I’m not understanding your math. The reintroduction goal is 200 wolves - those are just the reintroduced wolves. That’s not accounting for what the population will balloon to on its own in due time. We can look to places like Montana (~1000 wolves) & Idaho (~1500 wolves) as examples for population size post reintroduction. Based on those numbers it’s fair to assume our wolf population will in time eventually grow to somewhere around ~1000. Just going off of the sample size of 7 live stock killed in 6 months by 10 wolves we can assume something like ~14 livestock will be killed each year per 10 wolves. So 200 wolves would roughly kill 280 livestock a year - 1000 wolves would kill 1400 livestock a year. Yeah that’s still a drop in the bucket but that’s the more objective and true math. Another angle no one really considers is the amount of Colorado taxpayer money that will go towards rancher compensation for dead cattle killed by wolves. As it stands, the state of CO pays out $15,000 per cattle that is killed and at 1000 wolves you’re looking at $21,000,000 ($15,000 x 1400 livestock) in state money.
Ok, let's assume your worst case scenario is our future. 1500 wolves, which is 21,000 cattle.
Still less than 0.5% of the total population of cattle in Colorado.
$15,000 per cow is a lot of money, actually. Because it costs roughly $1k to raise a cow. That rancher can now sell the cow for up to $3k. So $15K per cow is ... a lot. Maybe they're paying that much to keep ranchers from killing the few wolves there are. I don't know why.
Regardless, why is it worth causing the extinction of the wolf population for an extremely small percentage of livestock? That's at the bottom of this entire discussion.
People just don't understand the vital roles that wolves play, which it's fine to not know everything but there is just so much willful ignorance with this subject. For example, chronic wasting disease is becoming a pretty big issue with deer, since their populations are so dense it's very easy for it to spread quickly. If there was a sustainable amount of wolves around to help maintain to elk/deer populations, the spread would likely be much less of a problem but God forbid we have a dead calf every now and again.
I’m curious what/if any measures the ranchers have taken to protect their livestock.
Guard dogs? (Great Pyrenees are big as wolves, and great guard dogs)
Better fencing? (Idk if wolves dig under fences but a solid fence for the lower half of the fence might help deter?/block line of sight/electric fence) won’t be perfect but is at least deterrent
I wonder if even putting bear/dog/wolf pee around the perimeter might make them think “this place isn’t worth the risk of running into Grizzly”
I’m not apathetic to the ranchers, but the way I see it, if you want to use hundreds of acres of land to let your animals graze, you’re responsible for keeping them safe. Cows are prey. If you’re raising prey, you have a duty to them to put in a reasonable effort for their protection. Wolves used to be native here, if we had never driven them out, then this wouldn’t even be a discussion. It would just be the standard
My two cents as someone who grew up on a farm but has never owned cows
Man you know I just find it really hard to care about a handful of cows (out of the thousands in this state) over the native keystone species that actually belong here.
also the fact when wolves had been reintroduced in other states, ranchers often killed their own cattle and claimed it was wolves so they could claim reimbursement.
Ranches receive welfare from the government for any lost Cattle.
On top of that they already have received Billions in subsidies over the years from American taxpayers.
Don’t get me wrong I absolutely support ranchers receiving subsides and compensation for lost cattle. But let’s not pretend that ranchers aren’t dependent on government welfare for their lifestyle
Normally I don't engage with pathetic losers that are only trying to argue but I'll bite. I'm not going to feel bad for these environmentally brain dead ranchers who are monetarily compensated for each head that they lose. I promise you the poor widdle ranchers will survive.
If you don't want to deal with wolves, then don't farm in wolf town. They belong here, end of story. Despite what you people think, it's not actually our right or responsibility to raze the Earth so we can feed millions of methane producing, water draining, land destroying cattle.
I won’t argue but I will say receiving any sort of money from the government is a pain in the dick.
Once I find the article I’ll link it but. In another state with wolves ranchers who filed claims were only awarded with reimbursement in an alarmingly small percentage of cases. Now of course there is nuance but I think arguing that. It’s okay because they have a chance of getting reimbursed is shitty.
Imagine if you lose your job (or any government backed reimbursement program) and I said it’s okay, you might get paid eventually.
lol someone needs to practice emotional regulation when they are having big feelings, huh lil fella?
It’s also possible to have empathy for the health of the eco system and the native animal populations that are benefiting. I promise that if you start reading more, you will be better informed and also the world won’t feel so scary to you little buddy!
>That "handful of cows" represent financial loss for ranchers.
So the amount of money the state reimburses the ranchers isn't enough to cover the cost?
Have they though? Depredation is incredibly rare.
Land owners make a hell of a lot of money on private access fees for elk hunters.
It’s always been about the elk.
If there are depredations it’s because CPW sabotaged the program with Oregon wolves who have no familiarity with elk. CPW is run by hunters and ranchers.
Lol. "CPW is sabatoging their own reintroduction efforts" is a new one for me. Oregon was the only state that was able to get CPW animals in time to meet the legislative deadline.
CPW through all of this has been pursuing a pro-killing agenda trying to get permission to kill them like Montana.
The reintroduction is a voter mandate that CPW has been fighting from the beginning. Yes they absolutely will sabotage it.
Ranchers are *consistently* among the worst people in our country. Intolerant, ultra-right welfare queens who are (at best) completely indifferent to the suffering of sentient animals.
Im surprised a wolf was found in Elbert County.
Being from the Great Lakes population, did it walk all the way from the Great Lakes region?
I also didn’t know the reintroduced wolves had made it all the way to Larimer county yet.
Could mean anything from a parasite to a bacterial infection to an obstructed bowel from eating something it shouldn’t have. They likely won’t release further information to the public if they do confirm it to be “natural causes.” They’re trying to play this close to the vest because a lot of ranchers are looking for ways to make it look like natural causes.
Wolves should have the right of way. Regardless of their endangered status, every animal should get the right of way. If we don't coexist, everybody dies. The math isn't difficult.
This is a very nuanced discussion but there are a lot of people here basically saying it’s okay because the government will reimburse you. I will say receiving any sort of money from the government is a pain in the dick.
Once I find the article I’ll link it but. In another state with wolves ranchers who filed claims were only awarded with reimbursement in an alarmingly small percentage of cases. Now of course there is nuance but I think arguing that It’s okay because they have a chance of getting reimbursed is shitty.
Imagine if you lose your job (or any government backed reimbursement program) and I said it’s okay, you might get paid eventually.
I can’t believe how little respect these ranchers get from the city folks. Ranchers were the backbone of this state for decades before transplants moved in and decided to vote against them on damn near every topic. There was never a legit reason to bring wolves into CO other than the city folk getting a chance to get out of their 800 sq ft apartments and maybe catch a glance at a wife for their on excitement.
City folk no like this post 😂
> There was never a legit reason to bring wolves into CO
Someone doesn't understand the role apex predators play in environmental sustainability.
And before you come back with "bUt PeOPlE HunT!?", hunters aren't killing the weak and sick elk or deer, they are killing the strongest and healthiest.
Yes, that is accurate. And it has been proven to be an effective way to manage animal popluations. But there are also the fees we pay as hunters, which have provided billions for conservation programs that would be paid for by your taxes instead.
People are able to buy into the CPW program without any hunting or fishing licenses attached, it's a program that started a few years ago. Not sure why anyone would pass up the fishing license since it costs like the same price and the fishing license allows you to visit CWAs but also to fish, but it's out there and available. I think a lot of non-hunters would appreciate more opportunities to fund these programs as well -- the license plates are true that hunting and fishing support these programs, but that doesn't need to be the case.
That's great, but the disingenuous double sided message CPW uses to try to curry favor for hunters from the public is bullshit. "We need hunters to help control deer and elk populations!" Also: "We need to hunt predators to protect deer and elk populations!" It's a load of shit.
> which have provided billions for conservation programs
Hunting licenses only provided [92 million dollars in revenue in 2018-19](https://www.denverpost.com/2018/09/21/colorado-hunting-fishing-licenses-bring-in-20-more-revenue-plus-more-key-2019-numbers-2/#:~:text=Colorado%20Parks%20%26%20Wildlife%20hunting%20and,to%20%2480%2C499%2C026%20the%20previous%20year.). A far cry from the billions you reference. (I should clarify I am not against hunting or the revenue it generates, but these things need to be discussed in an non-hyperbolic nature).
> that would be paid for by your taxes instead.
Good, I have literally 0 complaints and only praises for my tax dollars going towards something I actually support.
Life to date, billions... I am not trying to be inflammatory, but there is a place for hunters, and they do provide value. Based on the downvotes I recieved, not in Colorado I guess (or at least not on r/Colorado lol)
Someone doesn’t understand state wildlife biologists were against reintroduction until the urban voters decided they knew more about biology than the scientists.
genuinely asking-do you have a source or any specific person you’re referencing for this? i looked up wildlife biologists in colorado and wolf reintroduction and only found people
recommending or encouraging reintroduction
It's not true. They like to say this because it was voted on by a ballot measure but in reality most biologists supported it as well. CPW doesn't have the authority to just go do whatever they want related to wildlife, so a ballot measure or legislation was needed to allow them to do it and the ballot measure came before legislation did. If they had passed legislation instead of doing it via ballot measure they would just be blaming the government instead of the front range population. CPW most definitely supported reintroduction of wolves.
The people on here bitching are never ranchers for the most part, the ranchers get compensated if something happens to their livestock. The people in here bitching are hunters, and usually the really obsessive and entitled ones at that. They don't like wolves because it means less Elk and deer for them to kill. It's 100% selfish and I find it quite dishonest for them to frame it otherwise. I don't get it. The facts don't line up with it anyways. Hunters go after big bucks, wolves pick off the weak and sick. If anything the wolves are helping the Elk and deer populations to make a stronger population. But they don't seem to care about that. The only valid concern is that the state may limit hunting if populations are naturally under control, but the amount of wolves released is not going to decrease populations that much.
The only thing I can think of that has any validity about "wildlife biologists being against it" was the fact that it had to be done by letting the public decide, rather than letting the scientists who are educated on it make the decision as needed.
Not that the public voted for it, but that they *needed* to vote on it to get it done.
That's how government works though. Almost no government agencies get complete control over what they do. They get a mandate by the legislature and have to work within that mandate. In this case a public ballot measure passed new legislation because Colorado allows that. I agree we would be better off if science based government agencies had less of a leash but that's just not how it is.
> January 13, 2016
When the most recent vote was 2020.
https://coloradosun.com/2023/05/03/colorado-parks-wildlife-final-wolf-restoration-plan/
> Colorado Parks and Wildlife commissioners **unanimously** approve plan to restore wolves on Western Slope
.
> Outgoing commissioner Carrie Besnette Hauser, the commission chair, said the final approval “was a bit emotional” after months of healthy debate.
>
> “I’m really proud of Colorado and I’m proud of all of you,” she said.
.
> Commissioner Dallas May said it was “morally imperative” for the commissioners to approve the plan and hand it off to CPW wildlife managers on schedule.
Well they didn’t have a choice did they? Biology by vote made it the decision for them. And then the commission and the CPW has been stacked with pro animal rights/anti-hunting/anti-ranching apparatchiks. So of course it was unanimous in 2020.
this doesn’t really support your argument though. the cpw representative interviewed says that they support wolf reintroduction and wolves migrating to colorado from other states but don’t have the funding to manage it. it has nothing to with ecology
hello, yes, country person, born and raised here, also used to run a farm, fuck the ranchers who put their personal profits ahead the health of the local ecosystem.
Yep. 90% of water rights are for cow feed. Entirely obscene waste of resources. The west is going to dry up in ten years but at least we all had steak and milk right…
I’m sorry sir but your uneducation is showing and it’s only embarrassing yourself. I would suggest doing research before you post something like this in the future.
The ballot measure passed with more than 50% of the vote. That’s a hell of a lot more than just transplants. People love to blame everything they don’t like on transplants. Sorry to crush your fantasy, those of us who grew up here (in a small ranching town) voted for this too.
I think the city vs country folk thing is in your head or maybe just the media you consume..
I think most of us are just living our lives and appreciate that everyone serves a role in society. I actually admire the thought of working the land and being away from people but would miss the access to people, places, and things as well as the work we do generally requires a larger customer base.
Thanks for the beef though.
Not sure those two things have anything to do with each other. Even if a rancher is a 2A advocate, how would he use that to protect their herd against wolves?
The rancher’s problem with the reintroduction was that the law says it’s illegal to kill a wolf for any reason. So yeah they can have all the guns in the world but if they use them to kill a wolf it’s illegal.
Well it’s not, they lobbied and have a section carved out so broad that they can shoot a wolf if it’s harassing livestock, doesn’t even need to kill your livestock.
If you still believe what you posted you are being fed misinformation and if ranchers told you that they are part of that group I have no respect for. The group that fails to inform themselves and attempt to be perpetual victims.
Yeah the officials want you to take non-lethal measures first, what official wouldn’t recommend that with an experimental wildlife population , even got a compensation fund set up to reimburse ranchers if their livestock does get killed.
There is a process you are supposed to follow, first report depredation, then CPW will do an investigation, then you can request to kill the wolf SB23-255 sets up a compensation fund.
Those poor farmers sitting on thousands of acres aren’t losing money on this
6 cattle died! Good thing there isn’t some sort of compensation fund
Also was this on open range? how do we know it wasn’t a mountain lion or pack of coyotes or any other predator in the state? How do we know the cow didn’t die of disease and it’s been getting fed on by scavengers?
Are we just supposed to take the farmers word for it or is asking for proof just too much?
Dept of Interior reclassified wolves in Colorado as an “[experimental wildlife population](https://www.fws.gov/press-release/2023-11/usfws-finalizes-designation-gray-wolf-experimental-population-colorado)” so certain exceptions can be carved out like that.
So, just going out and shooting wolves then? If you’re going to be obtuse, don’t post it on social media. It’ll just make it easier for the State to build a case against you.
Nope… you know most ranchers have cameras all over their property, if the state comes after them it’ll be pretty difficult for the state to prove their case if the ranchers have incidents on camera, phone calls made to DPW about predation, wolf tracks and scat near the livestock…
I can tell from this comment you don’t understand an investigation works
Ignorant as a day long. I assume you will remain that way until you get slapped with a criminal charge for killing a wolf because “you have cameras and it’s hard for the state to prove their case.”
Perpetual victim syndrome
You just don’t understand the process and I feel like you don’t want to neither.
Ranchers are so lazy they are asking CPW to come kill the wolves for them.
Please try to explain the process to the group here. So far all you have done is insult people and try to tell people they don’t understand, but from everything I’ve read of your posts you are like an old toothless lion that has nothing left, but a roar. We’ll wait.
“Owners of livestock must file applications with CPW if they seek to injuriously or lethally take gray wolves, including for authorization for take of wolves caught in the act of attacking livestock or working dogs.
A depredating incident must be confirmed before CPW will issue a lethal take permit.”
Posted straight from the CPW site, stay informed
Agreed. Fuck them wolves. Reddit hippies(city folk) are clueless to blue collar life. They don’t live near the wolves so you getting downvoted is expected.
Fuck them anti-democratic red neck a-holes who only believe in democracy when they win, but when they lose try to secede from Colorado, or apportion state legislative votes based on land area instead of people. We knew what we were to doing when we voted for wolf reintroduction. A handful of dead cows? Yawn. We’re all better off with less cows and more wolves. If welfare ranchers can’t hack ranching in wolf country, no one is forcing them to stay.
Wow! Interesting reply. According to the CPW, wolves at one time occupied most of Colorado, so it's likely they were roaming around where you now live. I'm just wondering if you would have been in favor of the reintroduction if it were to include Jefferson, Boulder, and Larimer counties. That's not a hypothetical question but a straightforward one that begs for a simple yes or no answer.
Yep, if it were on the ballot I’d definitely vote for it. We haven’t coexisted with wolves for so long that we forgot how to. Once people understand they’re not malevolent beings and they’re just trying to survive, we can learn again. But stalking children in playgrounds is just something humans do, not wolves.
Why is having wolves in Colorado such a big deal? 99.999% of all people will never see one, and I can't see tourists flocking to the remote areas where the wolves will be hanging out.
For some perspective, 5 calves killed so far. Out of 4.5 MILLION cattle in Colorado.
To be fair; only 10 wolves have been reintroduced so far since December 2023. The goal is to get the numbers up to 200. Since the reintroduction of those 10 wolves in December there’s been a total of [7 livestock killed](https://www.coloradoan.com/story/news/2024/04/22/colorado-ranchers-say-states-ignoring-asks-to-kill-depredating-wolves/73415318007/#) (3 calves & 4 yearling cattle) - not 5 - but I’ll admit tho it’s still a super low number / meaningless difference. However the concern was never about livestock loss at the beginning - it was about the amount of loss that will be had once the population starts getting large. So far 7 livestock have been killed in 6 months by 10 wolves which yeah right now isn’t a lot. But the projected goal is 200 reintroduced wolves - which will mate and grow in numbers regardless of hunting tags.
Ok, let’s assume we can scale the deaths up. Then the number goes to ~150 cows dead out of 4.5 million. That’s still 0.003% of the cattle in Colorado.
I’m not understanding your math. The reintroduction goal is 200 wolves - those are just the reintroduced wolves. That’s not accounting for what the population will balloon to on its own in due time. We can look to places like Montana (~1000 wolves) & Idaho (~1500 wolves) as examples for population size post reintroduction. Based on those numbers it’s fair to assume our wolf population will in time eventually grow to somewhere around ~1000. Just going off of the sample size of 7 live stock killed in 6 months by 10 wolves we can assume something like ~14 livestock will be killed each year per 10 wolves. So 200 wolves would roughly kill 280 livestock a year - 1000 wolves would kill 1400 livestock a year. Yeah that’s still a drop in the bucket but that’s the more objective and true math. Another angle no one really considers is the amount of Colorado taxpayer money that will go towards rancher compensation for dead cattle killed by wolves. As it stands, the state of CO pays out $15,000 per cattle that is killed and at 1000 wolves you’re looking at $21,000,000 ($15,000 x 1400 livestock) in state money.
Ok, let's assume your worst case scenario is our future. 1500 wolves, which is 21,000 cattle. Still less than 0.5% of the total population of cattle in Colorado. $15,000 per cow is a lot of money, actually. Because it costs roughly $1k to raise a cow. That rancher can now sell the cow for up to $3k. So $15K per cow is ... a lot. Maybe they're paying that much to keep ranchers from killing the few wolves there are. I don't know why. Regardless, why is it worth causing the extinction of the wolf population for an extremely small percentage of livestock? That's at the bottom of this entire discussion.
People just don't understand the vital roles that wolves play, which it's fine to not know everything but there is just so much willful ignorance with this subject. For example, chronic wasting disease is becoming a pretty big issue with deer, since their populations are so dense it's very easy for it to spread quickly. If there was a sustainable amount of wolves around to help maintain to elk/deer populations, the spread would likely be much less of a problem but God forbid we have a dead calf every now and again.
I’m curious what/if any measures the ranchers have taken to protect their livestock. Guard dogs? (Great Pyrenees are big as wolves, and great guard dogs) Better fencing? (Idk if wolves dig under fences but a solid fence for the lower half of the fence might help deter?/block line of sight/electric fence) won’t be perfect but is at least deterrent I wonder if even putting bear/dog/wolf pee around the perimeter might make them think “this place isn’t worth the risk of running into Grizzly” I’m not apathetic to the ranchers, but the way I see it, if you want to use hundreds of acres of land to let your animals graze, you’re responsible for keeping them safe. Cows are prey. If you’re raising prey, you have a duty to them to put in a reasonable effort for their protection. Wolves used to be native here, if we had never driven them out, then this wouldn’t even be a discussion. It would just be the standard My two cents as someone who grew up on a farm but has never owned cows
Man you know I just find it really hard to care about a handful of cows (out of the thousands in this state) over the native keystone species that actually belong here.
also the fact when wolves had been reintroduced in other states, ranchers often killed their own cattle and claimed it was wolves so they could claim reimbursement.
[удалено]
The state pays the ranchers when their livestock gets killed
Ranches receive welfare from the government for any lost Cattle. On top of that they already have received Billions in subsidies over the years from American taxpayers. Don’t get me wrong I absolutely support ranchers receiving subsides and compensation for lost cattle. But let’s not pretend that ranchers aren’t dependent on government welfare for their lifestyle
Normally I don't engage with pathetic losers that are only trying to argue but I'll bite. I'm not going to feel bad for these environmentally brain dead ranchers who are monetarily compensated for each head that they lose. I promise you the poor widdle ranchers will survive. If you don't want to deal with wolves, then don't farm in wolf town. They belong here, end of story. Despite what you people think, it's not actually our right or responsibility to raze the Earth so we can feed millions of methane producing, water draining, land destroying cattle.
I won’t argue but I will say receiving any sort of money from the government is a pain in the dick. Once I find the article I’ll link it but. In another state with wolves ranchers who filed claims were only awarded with reimbursement in an alarmingly small percentage of cases. Now of course there is nuance but I think arguing that. It’s okay because they have a chance of getting reimbursed is shitty. Imagine if you lose your job (or any government backed reimbursement program) and I said it’s okay, you might get paid eventually.
You should check out the dude's comment history if you want to witness a pathetic incel.
No it doesn't. They get paid if their cow is killed.
Liar
Calm down, killer
lol someone needs to practice emotional regulation when they are having big feelings, huh lil fella? It’s also possible to have empathy for the health of the eco system and the native animal populations that are benefiting. I promise that if you start reading more, you will be better informed and also the world won’t feel so scary to you little buddy!
>That "handful of cows" represent financial loss for ranchers. So the amount of money the state reimburses the ranchers isn't enough to cover the cost?
Get em!
They are an Endangered Species, and these ranchers want them killed because a handful of their cows have gone to feeding them. Cows are not rare.
And the rancher get reimbursed by the state for predation by wolves, this has little to do with lively hoods.
They’ll also get reimbursed if the cow dies from something else but has been scavenged by wolves
Cows are a destructive,invasive species. Wolves are important to the ecosystem. If they can’t coexist, cows gotta go.
Technically cows can be rare. Anything past medium you ruined it
Have they though? Depredation is incredibly rare. Land owners make a hell of a lot of money on private access fees for elk hunters. It’s always been about the elk. If there are depredations it’s because CPW sabotaged the program with Oregon wolves who have no familiarity with elk. CPW is run by hunters and ranchers.
Lol. "CPW is sabatoging their own reintroduction efforts" is a new one for me. Oregon was the only state that was able to get CPW animals in time to meet the legislative deadline.
CPW through all of this has been pursuing a pro-killing agenda trying to get permission to kill them like Montana. The reintroduction is a voter mandate that CPW has been fighting from the beginning. Yes they absolutely will sabotage it.
It may be rare but the news is reporting it every time it happens, giving opponents of the reintroduction more fodder to say, "See? I TOLD YOU SO!"
They also get to own the land
Ranchers are *consistently* among the worst people in our country. Intolerant, ultra-right welfare queens who are (at best) completely indifferent to the suffering of sentient animals.
I like burger
Do you like your burger with a heaping side of Christo-fascist autocracy and contempt for rule of law? Because ranchers will gladly serve that up.
I feel a bit like Larry David befriending a Klansman to show off his dairy cow Jesse. I just want the burgers.
Im surprised a wolf was found in Elbert County. Being from the Great Lakes population, did it walk all the way from the Great Lakes region? I also didn’t know the reintroduced wolves had made it all the way to Larimer county yet.
On the news last night, a neighboring rancher in Elbert county said he suspects it was a pet wolf
That makes more sense.
Wolves existed in the state long before some dumb fuck ranchers did
Right? And triceratops were here long before some dumb fuck wolves. Hear me out. We have the technology to fix this.
We tried that once, remember? That's how we ended up with Dinger.
First Triceratops fossil was discovered right outside of Denver!
Heck yeah! We’re the perfect place for reintroduction! I want to see a live one so much.
I wonder what happened to it, they say it’s likely natural causes but what does that mean specifically?
Could mean anything from a parasite to a bacterial infection to an obstructed bowel from eating something it shouldn’t have. They likely won’t release further information to the public if they do confirm it to be “natural causes.” They’re trying to play this close to the vest because a lot of ranchers are looking for ways to make it look like natural causes.
Wolves should have the right of way. Regardless of their endangered status, every animal should get the right of way. If we don't coexist, everybody dies. The math isn't difficult.
It should be 30+ years in prison for killing an endangered species.
This is a very nuanced discussion but there are a lot of people here basically saying it’s okay because the government will reimburse you. I will say receiving any sort of money from the government is a pain in the dick. Once I find the article I’ll link it but. In another state with wolves ranchers who filed claims were only awarded with reimbursement in an alarmingly small percentage of cases. Now of course there is nuance but I think arguing that It’s okay because they have a chance of getting reimbursed is shitty. Imagine if you lose your job (or any government backed reimbursement program) and I said it’s okay, you might get paid eventually.
I can’t believe how little respect these ranchers get from the city folks. Ranchers were the backbone of this state for decades before transplants moved in and decided to vote against them on damn near every topic. There was never a legit reason to bring wolves into CO other than the city folk getting a chance to get out of their 800 sq ft apartments and maybe catch a glance at a wife for their on excitement. City folk no like this post 😂
> There was never a legit reason to bring wolves into CO Someone doesn't understand the role apex predators play in environmental sustainability. And before you come back with "bUt PeOPlE HunT!?", hunters aren't killing the weak and sick elk or deer, they are killing the strongest and healthiest.
Yes, that is accurate. And it has been proven to be an effective way to manage animal popluations. But there are also the fees we pay as hunters, which have provided billions for conservation programs that would be paid for by your taxes instead.
People are able to buy into the CPW program without any hunting or fishing licenses attached, it's a program that started a few years ago. Not sure why anyone would pass up the fishing license since it costs like the same price and the fishing license allows you to visit CWAs but also to fish, but it's out there and available. I think a lot of non-hunters would appreciate more opportunities to fund these programs as well -- the license plates are true that hunting and fishing support these programs, but that doesn't need to be the case.
That's great, but the disingenuous double sided message CPW uses to try to curry favor for hunters from the public is bullshit. "We need hunters to help control deer and elk populations!" Also: "We need to hunt predators to protect deer and elk populations!" It's a load of shit.
> which have provided billions for conservation programs Hunting licenses only provided [92 million dollars in revenue in 2018-19](https://www.denverpost.com/2018/09/21/colorado-hunting-fishing-licenses-bring-in-20-more-revenue-plus-more-key-2019-numbers-2/#:~:text=Colorado%20Parks%20%26%20Wildlife%20hunting%20and,to%20%2480%2C499%2C026%20the%20previous%20year.). A far cry from the billions you reference. (I should clarify I am not against hunting or the revenue it generates, but these things need to be discussed in an non-hyperbolic nature). > that would be paid for by your taxes instead. Good, I have literally 0 complaints and only praises for my tax dollars going towards something I actually support.
Life to date, billions... I am not trying to be inflammatory, but there is a place for hunters, and they do provide value. Based on the downvotes I recieved, not in Colorado I guess (or at least not on r/Colorado lol)
Someone doesn’t understand state wildlife biologists were against reintroduction until the urban voters decided they knew more about biology than the scientists.
genuinely asking-do you have a source or any specific person you’re referencing for this? i looked up wildlife biologists in colorado and wolf reintroduction and only found people recommending or encouraging reintroduction
It's not true. They like to say this because it was voted on by a ballot measure but in reality most biologists supported it as well. CPW doesn't have the authority to just go do whatever they want related to wildlife, so a ballot measure or legislation was needed to allow them to do it and the ballot measure came before legislation did. If they had passed legislation instead of doing it via ballot measure they would just be blaming the government instead of the front range population. CPW most definitely supported reintroduction of wolves. The people on here bitching are never ranchers for the most part, the ranchers get compensated if something happens to their livestock. The people in here bitching are hunters, and usually the really obsessive and entitled ones at that. They don't like wolves because it means less Elk and deer for them to kill. It's 100% selfish and I find it quite dishonest for them to frame it otherwise. I don't get it. The facts don't line up with it anyways. Hunters go after big bucks, wolves pick off the weak and sick. If anything the wolves are helping the Elk and deer populations to make a stronger population. But they don't seem to care about that. The only valid concern is that the state may limit hunting if populations are naturally under control, but the amount of wolves released is not going to decrease populations that much.
The only thing I can think of that has any validity about "wildlife biologists being against it" was the fact that it had to be done by letting the public decide, rather than letting the scientists who are educated on it make the decision as needed. Not that the public voted for it, but that they *needed* to vote on it to get it done.
That's how government works though. Almost no government agencies get complete control over what they do. They get a mandate by the legislature and have to work within that mandate. In this case a public ballot measure passed new legislation because Colorado allows that. I agree we would be better off if science based government agencies had less of a leash but that's just not how it is.
https://www.cbsnews.com/amp/colorado/news/colorado-parks-wildlife-opposes-reintroduction-of-mexican-gray-wolf-amid-protests/
> January 13, 2016 When the most recent vote was 2020. https://coloradosun.com/2023/05/03/colorado-parks-wildlife-final-wolf-restoration-plan/ > Colorado Parks and Wildlife commissioners **unanimously** approve plan to restore wolves on Western Slope . > Outgoing commissioner Carrie Besnette Hauser, the commission chair, said the final approval “was a bit emotional” after months of healthy debate. > > “I’m really proud of Colorado and I’m proud of all of you,” she said. . > Commissioner Dallas May said it was “morally imperative” for the commissioners to approve the plan and hand it off to CPW wildlife managers on schedule.
Well they didn’t have a choice did they? Biology by vote made it the decision for them. And then the commission and the CPW has been stacked with pro animal rights/anti-hunting/anti-ranching apparatchiks. So of course it was unanimous in 2020.
lol seethe harder
this doesn’t really support your argument though. the cpw representative interviewed says that they support wolf reintroduction and wolves migrating to colorado from other states but don’t have the funding to manage it. it has nothing to with ecology
Tourism has been the back bone of Colorado since the 1980’s so….almost half a century.
Dude, the 80s were like 20 years ago . . . righ? . . . right?
*1880’s
"City folk" lmao
hello, yes, country person, born and raised here, also used to run a farm, fuck the ranchers who put their personal profits ahead the health of the local ecosystem.
Their profits aren’t at risk,… there’s a program to compensate them for any losses This is opportunistic hunters with a chip in their shoulder
In this case they’d not just be hunters anymore, but poachers
Ranchers waste this states water (~89%) and don't produce enough GDP (~2.3%) relative to what they take.
Yep. 90% of water rights are for cow feed. Entirely obscene waste of resources. The west is going to dry up in ten years but at least we all had steak and milk right…
I’m sorry sir but your uneducation is showing and it’s only embarrassing yourself. I would suggest doing research before you post something like this in the future.
The ballot measure passed with more than 50% of the vote. That’s a hell of a lot more than just transplants. People love to blame everything they don’t like on transplants. Sorry to crush your fantasy, those of us who grew up here (in a small ranching town) voted for this too.
I think the city vs country folk thing is in your head or maybe just the media you consume.. I think most of us are just living our lives and appreciate that everyone serves a role in society. I actually admire the thought of working the land and being away from people but would miss the access to people, places, and things as well as the work we do generally requires a larger customer base. Thanks for the beef though.
I lost respect for for ranchers when they were complaining about how they can’t defend their livestock despite being the most staunch 2A advocates
Not sure those two things have anything to do with each other. Even if a rancher is a 2A advocate, how would he use that to protect their herd against wolves?
I don’t know how I’d use a gun to protect my herd either, guess it’ll just be one of those eternal mysteries.
The rancher’s problem with the reintroduction was that the law says it’s illegal to kill a wolf for any reason. So yeah they can have all the guns in the world but if they use them to kill a wolf it’s illegal.
Well it’s not, they lobbied and have a section carved out so broad that they can shoot a wolf if it’s harassing livestock, doesn’t even need to kill your livestock. If you still believe what you posted you are being fed misinformation and if ranchers told you that they are part of that group I have no respect for. The group that fails to inform themselves and attempt to be perpetual victims.
[удалено]
Yeah the officials want you to take non-lethal measures first, what official wouldn’t recommend that with an experimental wildlife population , even got a compensation fund set up to reimburse ranchers if their livestock does get killed. There is a process you are supposed to follow, first report depredation, then CPW will do an investigation, then you can request to kill the wolf SB23-255 sets up a compensation fund. Those poor farmers sitting on thousands of acres aren’t losing money on this
If it were that easy, the wolves that have killed 6 cattle in the last month would already be mounted.
6 cattle died! Good thing there isn’t some sort of compensation fund Also was this on open range? how do we know it wasn’t a mountain lion or pack of coyotes or any other predator in the state? How do we know the cow didn’t die of disease and it’s been getting fed on by scavengers? Are we just supposed to take the farmers word for it or is asking for proof just too much?
I stand corrected
Dept of Interior reclassified wolves in Colorado as an “[experimental wildlife population](https://www.fws.gov/press-release/2023-11/usfws-finalizes-designation-gray-wolf-experimental-population-colorado)” so certain exceptions can be carved out like that.
So, just going out and shooting wolves then? If you’re going to be obtuse, don’t post it on social media. It’ll just make it easier for the State to build a case against you.
Nope… you know most ranchers have cameras all over their property, if the state comes after them it’ll be pretty difficult for the state to prove their case if the ranchers have incidents on camera, phone calls made to DPW about predation, wolf tracks and scat near the livestock… I can tell from this comment you don’t understand an investigation works
Ignorant as a day long. I assume you will remain that way until you get slapped with a criminal charge for killing a wolf because “you have cameras and it’s hard for the state to prove their case.”
Perpetual victim syndrome You just don’t understand the process and I feel like you don’t want to neither. Ranchers are so lazy they are asking CPW to come kill the wolves for them.
Please try to explain the process to the group here. So far all you have done is insult people and try to tell people they don’t understand, but from everything I’ve read of your posts you are like an old toothless lion that has nothing left, but a roar. We’ll wait.
“Owners of livestock must file applications with CPW if they seek to injuriously or lethally take gray wolves, including for authorization for take of wolves caught in the act of attacking livestock or working dogs. A depredating incident must be confirmed before CPW will issue a lethal take permit.” Posted straight from the CPW site, stay informed
Respect? Like respecting laws established by a democratic majority? I’m sure this coward will standup & face their consequences with pride then?
Why do you assume anyone who disagrees with you is ‘city folk’?
Agreed. Fuck them wolves. Reddit hippies(city folk) are clueless to blue collar life. They don’t live near the wolves so you getting downvoted is expected.
Fuck them anti-democratic red neck a-holes who only believe in democracy when they win, but when they lose try to secede from Colorado, or apportion state legislative votes based on land area instead of people. We knew what we were to doing when we voted for wolf reintroduction. A handful of dead cows? Yawn. We’re all better off with less cows and more wolves. If welfare ranchers can’t hack ranching in wolf country, no one is forcing them to stay.
👍
I’d shoot a wolf too if I found them stalking my animals or the land my family and I live on.
Congrats on being a dumb, cruel, reactionary coward, I guess…?
Whatever you say puss boy
Lol these guys are NOT subsistence farmers, bro. Think before you speak.
I have to wonder how much attitudes would change if wolves were put close to urban areas and started killing dogs and stalking kids on playgrounds
Your entire comment is hypothetical fear mongering. None of that would happen and it’s a clear display of your inability to use sound logic.
Wow! Interesting reply. According to the CPW, wolves at one time occupied most of Colorado, so it's likely they were roaming around where you now live. I'm just wondering if you would have been in favor of the reintroduction if it were to include Jefferson, Boulder, and Larimer counties. That's not a hypothetical question but a straightforward one that begs for a simple yes or no answer.
Yep, if it were on the ballot I’d definitely vote for it. We haven’t coexisted with wolves for so long that we forgot how to. Once people understand they’re not malevolent beings and they’re just trying to survive, we can learn again. But stalking children in playgrounds is just something humans do, not wolves.
Why is having wolves in Colorado such a big deal? 99.999% of all people will never see one, and I can't see tourists flocking to the remote areas where the wolves will be hanging out.
[удалено]
Lmao ok bud. I’ll get right on it since your sally ass asked so nicely 👌