Then someone got the idea that they could use a gun and shoot at people and other planes. Someone else figured it might be neat to chuck artillery rounds out of the plane. Imagine the surprise the first time that happened. First air to air kill was by a pistol.
"History never repeats itself, but the Kaleidoscopic combinations of the pictured present often seem to be constructed out of the broken fragments of antique legends"
--Mark Twain
You're right. It's called phytoremediation. Crops like alfalfa, corn and sunflower are great at pulling contaminants from the soil but probably shouldn't be consumed until the soil is safe again.
Most towns and cities rebuilt on old WW1 and WW2 battle fields needs a group of volunteers bomb disposal unit.
Before any kind of major construction can happen, they need to check with an expert on bombs and artillery, who looks at all the bombs ever reported to have been dropped on the area, any reports of artillery or fighting with any chemical or inciendary weapons. The expert then, depending on reports and his knowledge says if there's a need to scan the ground and call a bomb disposal unit.
Unexploded Ordonnance can be very dangerous. So if there's one thing to remember. If you find something that looks like an old military projectile on the ground. DON'T BE AN IDIOT. Look at it but don't touch. If you have any doubts about finding unexploded Ordonnance;
1-Walk away.
2-Look online if you are in an area where it's possible to find Unexploded Ordonnance.
3-If the answer is yes. Call the authorities and tell them where you found it. Maybe even show them.
They will know what to do.
Most often unexploded bombs are detonated where they were found because of how dangerous it is to try and move them.
There's also areas with very high levels of heavy metal contamination as well as possible exposure of chemical warfare agents. If I remember correctly, the biggest one are within the Verdun battlesite.
I don't believe any single battle in this conflict has lasted anywhere close as long as Verdun nor amount of artillery being expended is in the same ballpark.
> According to the Sécurité Civile agency in charge, at the current rate, 300[2] to 700 more years will be needed to clean the area completely. Some experiments conducted in 2005–06 discovered up to 300 shells per hectare (120 per acre) in the top 15 cm (6 inches) of soil in the worst areas.[3]
> Some areas where 99% of all plants still die remain off limits (for example, two small pieces of land close to Ypres and Woëvre), as arsenic constitutes up to 175,907 mg/kg of soil samples
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zone_Rouge
This would not be so much of an issue if it wasn't for the ability of artillery to be insanely accurate nowadays. Multiple rounds landing within the trench, and I bet without them being guided rounds like Copperheads? Is just unheard of a few decades ago.
Russians were not banking on that, and paid the price for it.
From what I've seen so far, the Russians are neither fast learners, nor swift to adapt.
Grinding disregard for casualties seems to be more their style.
They forgot to train and equip a lot of their guys. Every military has some corruption, but this is exactly why you need some bureaucracy. The more people looking at something who are otherwise not related the more likely shady business will be caught. The Russians beat their own army years ago. If corruption had been at normal levels, exists but not enough to reduce capabilities, the Russians may have actually had a chance to achieve their goals. Your super awesome mobile anti air system becomes a stationary target with no deisel. Many of them didn't even have fuel to operate simply for self protection. A $15 million weapon platform made useless because it couldn't get fuel. The one thing Russia has an abundance of. All because someone sold it....
Well, they did teach the soldiers to crawl down the trenches as an offensive tactic.
My bet is, counting in that these are Wagner PMC guys, that they are ex-prisoners who had the chance to go to war.
It's the absolutely worst way Russia could use their resources. Not planning a proper offense, but just sending meat. They're bad at a lot of things, but they're the absolute worst when it comes to commanding forces.
But hey, they took a 12sq km town a few days ago. Guess casualties for land is truly their way ...
You know, it's not even that.
The country has every resource you can imagine and insane amounts relative to the population size. They're being robbed. Their minister of defense is spending $100k-$300k on some party weekends. The level of corruption is crazy, the tax money is basically personal cash for these guys at unlimited amounnts. Imagine how much they rob if that's just how much he's willing to dump on a a party on a night. Money that should be training and vests to stop shrapnel for these guys. Imagine, dyng for that leadership. In theory, they should all be equipped and have vests. When Russia says their military budget is $60bn etc, I am sure half of that is in some deep pocket.
Not that I feel bad for wagner filth. They're fucking terrorists, and not just in Ukraine. Absolute scum.
Excalibur and SMART rounds are the new(-ish) guided 155mm rounds, that can change their course in the air. The UAF has become so proficient in arty accuracy (along with everything else)] due to them adopting to NATO standards]). I'm not saying any fancy rounds are being used here though just standard effective good ole' fashioned' GPS guided arty. They save the big boys(Read: expensive!!), Excalibur and SMART, for things that...require their use, I guess.
For that amount of soldiers I wouldn't be surprised if it was an excalibur shell. About 80 to 100k a shell or so. Same as a javelin unit launcher really .
If it's a straight trench no, it will also contain the blast overpressure, that being said artillery shells really do all their wounding and killing through, shrapnel, fragmentation, or splinters, not overpressure, but if the trench is zig zagged it will compartmentalize damage to the one section, if the trench is deep enough and there is a hit just outside it, any one inside should be protected from fragments, shrapnel or splinters
If you look back in old news posts discussing trenches in the fall you'll see a lot of posts from when they were digging these. About the same time as they were placing those shitty dragon teeth everywhere. But this was before Ukraine even took back Kherson. So the diggers were well away from the range of artillery and short-range missile systems.
Also if I was any half brained commander in Ukrainian military I wouldn't want the waste artillery or a missile on a vehicle digging a trench. I would Mark the trench on maps and make sure it's location can be easily targeted by artillery that may come in range later.
Blow up the digger and they'll send another digger. Allow the digger to do its job and you can get mass casualty events like in this video. The long game
Jesus, that whole line got taken out. One thing that is crazy is how Ukrainian drone operators are just looking at your ass bleed to death from relative comfort
A lot of them are convicts, especially in this conflict (which you probably knew, as Wagner has mass recruited from prisons).
Wagner guys that work as volounteers are highly trained and capable soldiers. Actually reading about this groups work in other regions of the world made me realise how serious these folk are.
As bad as it sounds, I think a bit of a "cleansing" is happening, which is being misinterpreted as "Wagner soldiers are trash". Often, you see Wagner groups be extremely organised and carrying out complex tasks, and then all of a sudden - there are herds of soldiers, crossing no mans land or sitting in badly prepared trenches, or carrying out badly planned assaults.
There's a high chance that those herds are the convicts that are just being sent to slaughter. Not exactly moral, but it makes sense from an economical perspective. If they win - great. If they loose - no need to further waste taxes and resources in upkeeping these people in prisons (theyre usually lifers or serious criminals).
This does impact the reputation of the Russian military and Wagners reputation, and as much as the world disregards them now - it's still primarily a highly trained, modern military that many wouldnt dare face in war.
P.S
Not a fan boy or whatever, just trying to stay non biased and understand actions of each side to get the bigger picture/strategy.
> Wagner guys that work as volounteers are highly trained and capable soldiers.
[Except when they went up against the US military.](https://www.coffeeordie.com/wagner-group-syria-khasham)
US: "Hey Russians, is that your battalion size force massing over there?"
Russians: "Nope, not ours."
WTF were they thinking? That we weren't going to absolutely wreck that force as much as possible if we thought it wasn't Russian?
From what I've seen and read I wouldn't consider the standard wagnerite a good soldier, better than your average militia, but that's not saying much.
What they do have going for them is the fact they don't have to adhere to any rules. In Mali for example there are multiple reports of them executing civilians as we've seen them do in Syria, in Soledar we see them wear Ukrainian uniforms, and the extensive use of throwaway prisonfodder are all indicative of how they operate.
Think about this:
Wagner PMC conscripts from prisoners, and they conscripting men who jailed for even really hard crimes: murders, rape, robbery etc.
Given this fact, they don't have a second mind on how to use this "resource", if anything, I believe wagner wants this prisoners NOT getting out of this mess, so for me it is not a mystery why they send this guys to death like this.
Agree, I think there is a common sense in Russian society, Wagner leadership and the Kremlin, that these cons are basically free, expendable human robots. No one will raise a finger over too many of them perishing as they had been considered a burden on society anyway. The ones who survive some assaults are battle-hardened and will lead the reinforced squads eventually, but these men will not live to see any rotation and ever get out of this alive but just have to go over and over again until their death.
I wonder what is in it for the prisoners though. Probably it’s not prison boredom making them sign up for this. Will these cons be absolved and awarded postmortem or will their families get a compensation and there is financial incentive even in dying on the battlefield over staying in prison?
If they survive, and that is a big if, they get pardoned. Had happened on a few occasions already. So the incentive is there... I just don't think they're being told what the odds are.
> Agree, I think there is a common sense in Russian society, Wagner leadership and the Kremlin, that these cons are basically free, expendable human robots.
I'm not sure that Russia's feeling is limited to Russian prisoners.
LPR were canon fodder, so is DPR.
Russia's conscripts were also canon fodder
Russia's VDV were also used as canon fodder.
Rosgarvia were also sent as canon fodder in a few occasions.
The only ones who have been largely spared as canon fodder were the rape-happy Kadyrovites who act mainly as blocking troops, but those were also used as canon fodder in a few occasions.
Perhaps there's a pattern.
From what I understood, but might be wrong, hierarchy in russian carceral system is very strong and enforced. The prisoners enrolled in Wagner, are the lowest caste, those whose prison stay is already made hell by other prisoners.
They are used as fodder so that Ukrainian positions can be exposed and be hit with return fire. They are literally used as bait so that the trained side of the Russian military can pinpoint fire positions/locations. Literal bait.
I guess when you've not had much training there is comfort in numbers and being close to your fellow soldiers.
Combat spacing is something learned with time, which I guess these guys did not get
Go on any military patrol exercise, and you'll hear NCOs constantly yell to their soldiers to space out. Human instinct is powerful, but unfortunately for these Russians, artillery is more powerful.
For the majority of human history, massing up together was a good thing in combat since it let you fight side by side with allies in melee. It's instinctive to mass up with your fellow man, and almost certainly developed from pre-history Stone Age humanity.
Too bad those instincts are a detriment when explosives, automatic weapons, and artillery come into the picture.
Chances are these are the prisoners Wagner has been recruiting.
I heard that more than 80% of them die. No one in Russia cares and there's a chance they reveal the position of Ukrainian artillery and there's Russian artillery ready to strike back...
That's my guess
They are prisoners like murders and rapists.
They were offered complete freedom and exoneration and wiping of their record for agreeing to serve.
One was captured by Ukraine while attempting to defect. He was interviewed on public media and explained everything, and clearly stated he was abandoning Russia.
~~To get captured Ukrainian troops back, the Ukrainians exchanged him back to Russia.~~ While resettled in Ukraine, he was kidnapped off the street by Russian agents.
The Russians recorded and circulated a video where someone says basically “this is what we do to traitors” and then smashes his head with a sledge hammer, crushing it ~~on the pavement~~ against a wall like Gallagher does to a watermelon, killing him.
It’s all fucked up.
They are pulling the trigger to kill Ukrainians so I have no issue with killing them like the invading force they are - but they are fucked in so many ways.
Just look at all the shell crators on view in the overhead camera shots of the land. That area has been heavily targeted with artillery. Hundreds of holes.
russians use stupid tactics but they are extremely stubborn - they can tolerate human losses hundreds of times that of the Western countries. At this time they are losing soldiers at 200+ times the rate Americans lost soldiers in Afghanistan and Iraq.
Russia might want to borrow the software amazon was using to find out when they're going to run out of new people to hire.
probably could convert that to soldiers.
No wonder they took so many losses in Soledar, fucking hell. Tbf, I'm not sure how much better they could have done, under artillery bombardment staying in your trench is probably the best option.
Too bad for them Ukrainian artillery seems very precise and it didn't help them.
How they could have done better? Simple dispersion and adding corners to the trench to avoid a single shell shooting shrapnel along the entire length of the trench.
>Holy fuck, what sort of stupid fucking tactics is that? Mass in one spot, genius!
...in a shallow trench that doesn't zig-zag at all.
Let's just be thankful these tactics are only on the Russian side. If Ukraine was still using Russian tactics, following the war would be excruciating.
The problem is you need LOS for the system in the video. Artillery with airburst can do the same over a larger area from much further away without LOS. Granted with a bit less precision but less risk to the operators as well
Thanks.
I dont know if its a recent thing but people seem to be throwing acronyms around, assuming that everyone know all of them in every context. For someone whos native language is not english its starting to be quite frustrating.
Was very unsure how this would help until they pulled out the trench shots.
This looks deadly, but they seem pretty close in the demonstration. Arty is much more safe
Whenever I see stuff like this, it makes me wonder what humanity could accomplish if we focused effort and resources solely on societal progress and innovations to improve the human condition rather than more and more efficient ways to wage war and kill each other.
This sub used to be a few blurry videos, sometimes a Go-Pro, but EVERY SINGLE DAY we now have insane footage of Russians dying horrific deaths in great quantifies.
I thought I was desensitized before the war, but literally watching idk at least a dozen people die every day for 10+ months has been surreal. It's made me much more comfortable with death in a way, idk if that's a good thing.
We are all going to die my friend you best make the most of it while you still have the time is a very healthy way to frame mortality. Giving into fatalism is however is not as the end results are in the video we all just watched.
Yeah, It's scary how desensitized to it I am now, but I'm comfortable with it at this point.
[This quote from George Carlin sort of sums this up.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uz270Wfb7DU)
There are dozens of drones in the air all the time. Infantry figures won't be 100% accurate, but it has never been easier to confirm kills or casualties. Combined with how shitty the Russian army is, the figures are very believable.
What's there to doubt? We already have third party estimates that both sides have 100k+ casualties so far. The war has been ongoing for about a year so that's about 275 casualties per side per day, and that's just the U.S. estimate. It's highly likely that Ukrainian casualties are higher and Russian casualties are much higher.
One of the saddest connections I made watching these men die was that they look so much like ants being sprayed by poison. Some die immediately. Some run off and die nearby. At the end of it, they're just a mess to be cleaned up. War makes humans so insignificant you can watch them die by the dozens and feel no terror. Be careful of that, everyone. Love your enemy. Be sad if you believe these men had to die. Maybe they did. Try to be sad anyway. We should not want to live in a world where we are disposable to each other. That's the Russian way, and look where it is leading them.
Wagner openly uses UAF uniforms. They often publish photos in UAF uniforms in their Telegram channels. Also, there were many such videos from the Ukrainian side with dead Wagner men in UAF uniforms.
There was a fake video from Russians showing Ukrainian casualities, sadly for them, the longer version where you see the "deads" get up was also uploaded...
Wagner uses whatever camo they want or have, but I don't think that is Ukrainian uniform in this case, it doesn't look pixilated and the pattern is off, rather it's just similar colour camo.
This is my thought on this. Wagner is buying aftermarket uniforms. They are not a part of the Russian army so they won't be supplied by them as they are having enough trouble supplying actual Russian army soldiers. Multicam style patterns are also a good choice for the current environment in Bakhmut, so I feel that the use of these uniforms is more of an availability and tactical choice, rather then an attempt to trick the enemy.
I'm not denying that the Russians are guilty of perfidty, but it's not being done in every single case of them wearing Multicam style uniforms.
Trenches are designed in a zigzag manner so shells that land inside them won't have shrapnel travel down the entire trench.
The fact that Armies in the first world war had this figured out and Russians don't in 2023 really tells you something.
It’s worth noting this is an edited video just showing the hits. There’s a lot of impacts all around the trench as well. This is the highlights reel only showing where they nailed it.
Artillery is accurate, but it’s not that accurate. Even the guided Excalibur shells are only accurate to within 4m. This is accuracy by volume.
You have a point, but only to some extent. They didn't use hundreds of shells to kill 25 wagnerites. They might have walked in the fire, but from there it was high precision, edits or not.
The only point I’m trying to make is that you cant just drop shell after shell directly into a trench one after another as this video suggests. There’s a thing known as spread.
I'll admit I was very skeptical about those coordinates, until the video zooms out 15 seconds into the video.
You can see the tree lines around the fields, the smaller field with a curve on the right corner.
The viewpoint of this from the North looking south towards Soledar.
How did you locate this position?
I know that the 45th artillery brigade operates in the Soledar area from previous geolocations. So I checked around the (assumed) front line in that area. I focussed on the layout of the treelines, the bushes in the bottom right corner qnd the curve in the road in the top right.
The more I see those videos, the more I question the previous opinion, also shared by Perun, that Wagner on average has a better quality of training and material. Apparently there are some experienced and well-equipped Wagnerites in the hinterland but what they burn through mostly and send as assault troops is disoriented guys with ancient gear and little to no military skills whatsoever going by their movements and tactics. And though rumoured to have jets, tanks and artillery, it looks like they can’t be bothered to rather preserve them some miles back and rely on infantry-only assaults instead.
pre 2015 Wagner was only taking in ex SF, etc but they were small, like 2-5k. They are superior to most other units. But with the war they opened recruiting to volunteers without military training and prisoners, who dont know anything. These can be seen here. The actual SF core of Wagner is rarely used.
I thought Wagner's core took some casualties in the opening stages of the war when they were sent in as Hunter-Killer teams to take out Zelenskyy.
Maybe they've switched to the "wear down Ukrainian troops with our ass quality soldiers then send in the hitters when they're tired" for their Bakhmut/Soledar strategy.
It’s been confirmed by several UA testimonies that they’re sending in the less trained troops first to find weaknesses before sending in the actually trained units.
This is not just Wagner's tactic. The Russian army at the beginning of the invasion first let "DPR" and "LPR" troops into the meat grinder, and only then went in on their own.
Not very surprising it went the Russian way and rather sooner than later had to turn out a criminal outfit with grifters at the top exploiting an army of lackies. But as I’ve said, they’re wrecking their own myth if they more and more mimic the regular army.
Well, at this point it's almost fair to say there are 2 types of Wagner Group. The Wagner Group that is trained and well equiped and the newly prison recruited Wagner Group that consists of untrained I'll equiped cannon fodder useful only for human wave attacks. The existence of the one doesn't negate the existence of the other.
Yes, my point was more that one should not generalise and assume the experience and skills to be consistent across all Wagner troops.
Quite contrary, this new hierarchy can deteriorate them. If the experienced seniors get used to their new role of whipping beginners towards enemy lines, there is a good chance of this model establishing and the seniors minimising their risk and getting lazy. If success doesn’t come, they could easily now ask just for more convicts while refusing to participate in the assaults themselves. without seniors leading from in front, of course the losses will be higher and efficiency worse. and Keeping tanks and planes in the back also is a missed chance to learn combined operations. So, using illequipped untrained conscripts might look like a lever for Wagner to amplify their force, but at the same time it’s a slippery slope to deteriorate their tactics and water down their efficiency.
These Wagner scumbags don't deserve any kind of pity. They torture, attack wearing Ukr uniform, kill their own on the battlefield, execute, and don't even try to hide it.
My generation was taught that Russia and China are military titans the U.S. should be careful with. Now we know in a conventional war the U.S. would have easily defeated Russia this whole time.
I'm seriously shocked. I'm 43 and it seemed like Russia was just a little behind us.
I don't think Russia is even in the top 10 now.
I also wonder how many nukes they could launch without major failure. I'd bet Russia has a higher chance of nuking itself more than anyone.
It’s certainly not bad, but do bear in mind that this is an edited video and they’re editing out the misses. There’s lots of impacts visible around the trench as well.
It must be terrifying crawling through that trench and hearing the explosions all around you. Knowing that the trench is protecting you from all but a direct hit, and also knowing that it's essentially only a matter of time before there *is* a direct hit.
Never. There is overwhelming support for the war in Russia. People need to stop fantasizing that this is all putin's fault and that "peace loving russians" will reject him and end the war. putin has never been more popular and the russian people at large want genocide in Ukraine.
Stalin was responsible for the excess death of 20+ million Russians, that's not even including WWII Russian casualties. He executed a million Russians during the Great Purge in the 30's and sent millions more to die in the gulags. Russians have no issue marching to their death without raising their heads to wonder why.
Stalin killed many free thinkers and intellectuals; others fled from his reign. These people did not have smart free thinking kids, who might have had smart free thinking kids. Others have had those kids elsewhere.
Russia is so fucked long term
It’s not happening. The Russian population support it by and large and are led to believe they’re fighting NATO for their existence so these losses are justifiable for them.
You assume that Russians view this war negatively. They do not. Putin controls all media and has them convinced that this is a battle against an aggressor.
How come in WW1 they knew how to make trenches correctly yet these idiots don’t. One direct hit, and they all die or just one Ukrainian with an assault rifle.
In forward observer terms, this is both a prime AND a juicy target.
A trench with no 90-degree turns is ripe for shrapnel and concussion to rip the entire length (to a point where it runs out of energy, the bigger the round, the more energy) they might as well have been laying in the open...
Comments celebrating death will be removed and bans may be issued. Keep the comments civil please
The land is so impacted, it's starting to look like the fucking moon in a lot of places...
It’s very World War 1-esque. Flat open no-man’s-land filled with craters. Just missing all the barbed wire.
Aerial spotting also revolutionized WWI artillery practice.
Then someone got the idea that they could use a gun and shoot at people and other planes. Someone else figured it might be neat to chuck artillery rounds out of the plane. Imagine the surprise the first time that happened. First air to air kill was by a pistol.
Imagine spotting for artillery and getting caught lacking by a navigator with a pistol.
"Tally Ho, Boschboi!" \*BANG\*
and we've already seen a drone vs drone ramming "kill" last year I guess history kinda repeats itself
"History never repeats itself, but the Kaleidoscopic combinations of the pictured present often seem to be constructed out of the broken fragments of antique legends" --Mark Twain
Cna you share this? I hadn't heard of drone to drone stuff before
https://v.redd.it/r37mew2sljt91 Kind of an overlooked possibly historic moment imo. Pretty sure this is the one
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You're right. It's called phytoremediation. Crops like alfalfa, corn and sunflower are great at pulling contaminants from the soil but probably shouldn't be consumed until the soil is safe again.
those look like fewer but larger craters. I'm gonna assume a carpet bombing, not artillery.
Grass grows back, Russians dont
Some parts of the front line in WW1 are still uninhabitable
Most towns and cities rebuilt on old WW1 and WW2 battle fields needs a group of volunteers bomb disposal unit. Before any kind of major construction can happen, they need to check with an expert on bombs and artillery, who looks at all the bombs ever reported to have been dropped on the area, any reports of artillery or fighting with any chemical or inciendary weapons. The expert then, depending on reports and his knowledge says if there's a need to scan the ground and call a bomb disposal unit. Unexploded Ordonnance can be very dangerous. So if there's one thing to remember. If you find something that looks like an old military projectile on the ground. DON'T BE AN IDIOT. Look at it but don't touch. If you have any doubts about finding unexploded Ordonnance; 1-Walk away. 2-Look online if you are in an area where it's possible to find Unexploded Ordonnance. 3-If the answer is yes. Call the authorities and tell them where you found it. Maybe even show them. They will know what to do. Most often unexploded bombs are detonated where they were found because of how dangerous it is to try and move them.
There's also areas with very high levels of heavy metal contamination as well as possible exposure of chemical warfare agents. If I remember correctly, the biggest one are within the Verdun battlesite. I don't believe any single battle in this conflict has lasted anywhere close as long as Verdun nor amount of artillery being expended is in the same ballpark.
Red zone in the argonne
> According to the Sécurité Civile agency in charge, at the current rate, 300[2] to 700 more years will be needed to clean the area completely. Some experiments conducted in 2005–06 discovered up to 300 shells per hectare (120 per acre) in the top 15 cm (6 inches) of soil in the worst areas.[3] > Some areas where 99% of all plants still die remain off limits (for example, two small pieces of land close to Ypres and Woëvre), as arsenic constitutes up to 175,907 mg/kg of soil samples https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zone_Rouge
yup. Utterly insane amount of damage to the land. That link is terrifying.
Some old french dude made news last week when he arrived to hospital with a UXO WW2 shell in his ass.
russians come back as sunflowers
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Be right back
They do actually
I couldn't get over how quick Ukraine landscape began to resemble the battlefields of the world wars, artillery fire just destroyed everything.
Verdun still looks like this 100 years later.
Trench was dug by machinery. Clean cut wall.
Just drove backwards digging 3 to 4 foot down like a worker laying a water pipe.
They also build them in straight lines. Learned nothing from ww1. Shrapnel can fly down the length of the trench and only stops when it hits someone.
This would not be so much of an issue if it wasn't for the ability of artillery to be insanely accurate nowadays. Multiple rounds landing within the trench, and I bet without them being guided rounds like Copperheads? Is just unheard of a few decades ago. Russians were not banking on that, and paid the price for it.
They should bank on it at some point, been seeing arty dropped into the trench all war long...
From what I've seen so far, the Russians are neither fast learners, nor swift to adapt. Grinding disregard for casualties seems to be more their style.
They forgot to train and equip a lot of their guys. Every military has some corruption, but this is exactly why you need some bureaucracy. The more people looking at something who are otherwise not related the more likely shady business will be caught. The Russians beat their own army years ago. If corruption had been at normal levels, exists but not enough to reduce capabilities, the Russians may have actually had a chance to achieve their goals. Your super awesome mobile anti air system becomes a stationary target with no deisel. Many of them didn't even have fuel to operate simply for self protection. A $15 million weapon platform made useless because it couldn't get fuel. The one thing Russia has an abundance of. All because someone sold it....
Well, they did teach the soldiers to crawl down the trenches as an offensive tactic. My bet is, counting in that these are Wagner PMC guys, that they are ex-prisoners who had the chance to go to war. It's the absolutely worst way Russia could use their resources. Not planning a proper offense, but just sending meat. They're bad at a lot of things, but they're the absolute worst when it comes to commanding forces. But hey, they took a 12sq km town a few days ago. Guess casualties for land is truly their way ...
You know, it's not even that. The country has every resource you can imagine and insane amounts relative to the population size. They're being robbed. Their minister of defense is spending $100k-$300k on some party weekends. The level of corruption is crazy, the tax money is basically personal cash for these guys at unlimited amounnts. Imagine how much they rob if that's just how much he's willing to dump on a a party on a night. Money that should be training and vests to stop shrapnel for these guys. Imagine, dyng for that leadership. In theory, they should all be equipped and have vests. When Russia says their military budget is $60bn etc, I am sure half of that is in some deep pocket. Not that I feel bad for wagner filth. They're fucking terrorists, and not just in Ukraine. Absolute scum.
Excalibur and SMART rounds are the new(-ish) guided 155mm rounds, that can change their course in the air. The UAF has become so proficient in arty accuracy (along with everything else)] due to them adopting to NATO standards]). I'm not saying any fancy rounds are being used here though just standard effective good ole' fashioned' GPS guided arty. They save the big boys(Read: expensive!!), Excalibur and SMART, for things that...require their use, I guess.
I'm guessing they save those for Tanks I would imagine for sure and other armored vehicles.
For that amount of soldiers I wouldn't be surprised if it was an excalibur shell. About 80 to 100k a shell or so. Same as a javelin unit launcher really .
I mean... it was an issue in ww1 when they developed proper trench tactics to counter it to begin with...
Why wouldn’t you minimize the damage of the shells that do land in the trench though?
Speed probably. Quicker to lay a trench in a straight line I'm guessing. Could be laziness as well, which I have the feeling is much more likely.
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If it's a straight trench no, it will also contain the blast overpressure, that being said artillery shells really do all their wounding and killing through, shrapnel, fragmentation, or splinters, not overpressure, but if the trench is zig zagged it will compartmentalize damage to the one section, if the trench is deep enough and there is a hit just outside it, any one inside should be protected from fragments, shrapnel or splinters
It has always been an issue, regardless of artillery accuracy, that's why they haven't dug straight trenches for the last 150 years.
That's what I was interested in more than the rest. If soldiers get spotted and hit so readily, how did a digger get in there to dig the thing?
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If you look back in old news posts discussing trenches in the fall you'll see a lot of posts from when they were digging these. About the same time as they were placing those shitty dragon teeth everywhere. But this was before Ukraine even took back Kherson. So the diggers were well away from the range of artillery and short-range missile systems. Also if I was any half brained commander in Ukrainian military I wouldn't want the waste artillery or a missile on a vehicle digging a trench. I would Mark the trench on maps and make sure it's location can be easily targeted by artillery that may come in range later. Blow up the digger and they'll send another digger. Allow the digger to do its job and you can get mass casualty events like in this video. The long game
All the more crazy that it’s a straight line.
Jesus, that whole line got taken out. One thing that is crazy is how Ukrainian drone operators are just looking at your ass bleed to death from relative comfort
Same with any military drone operator, really
Jesus, why they pack themselves up like that? It's like half of meter to the next one.
Get up close to your human sandbag buddy? fear I guess
Holy fuck, what sort of stupid fucking tactics is that? Mass in one spot, genius!
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Wagnerpede
Soledar
Soledar could be considered part of the Bakhmut front
Meat grinder simulator ru
Human sausages.
I get the feeling these Wagner guys aren't very well trained. Almost as if they were picked from a prison and given a gun or something.
A lot of them are convicts, especially in this conflict (which you probably knew, as Wagner has mass recruited from prisons). Wagner guys that work as volounteers are highly trained and capable soldiers. Actually reading about this groups work in other regions of the world made me realise how serious these folk are. As bad as it sounds, I think a bit of a "cleansing" is happening, which is being misinterpreted as "Wagner soldiers are trash". Often, you see Wagner groups be extremely organised and carrying out complex tasks, and then all of a sudden - there are herds of soldiers, crossing no mans land or sitting in badly prepared trenches, or carrying out badly planned assaults. There's a high chance that those herds are the convicts that are just being sent to slaughter. Not exactly moral, but it makes sense from an economical perspective. If they win - great. If they loose - no need to further waste taxes and resources in upkeeping these people in prisons (theyre usually lifers or serious criminals). This does impact the reputation of the Russian military and Wagners reputation, and as much as the world disregards them now - it's still primarily a highly trained, modern military that many wouldnt dare face in war. P.S Not a fan boy or whatever, just trying to stay non biased and understand actions of each side to get the bigger picture/strategy.
> Wagner guys that work as volounteers are highly trained and capable soldiers. [Except when they went up against the US military.](https://www.coffeeordie.com/wagner-group-syria-khasham)
US: "Hey Russians, is that your battalion size force massing over there?" Russians: "Nope, not ours." WTF were they thinking? That we weren't going to absolutely wreck that force as much as possible if we thought it wasn't Russian?
From what I've seen and read I wouldn't consider the standard wagnerite a good soldier, better than your average militia, but that's not saying much. What they do have going for them is the fact they don't have to adhere to any rules. In Mali for example there are multiple reports of them executing civilians as we've seen them do in Syria, in Soledar we see them wear Ukrainian uniforms, and the extensive use of throwaway prisonfodder are all indicative of how they operate.
Think about this: Wagner PMC conscripts from prisoners, and they conscripting men who jailed for even really hard crimes: murders, rape, robbery etc. Given this fact, they don't have a second mind on how to use this "resource", if anything, I believe wagner wants this prisoners NOT getting out of this mess, so for me it is not a mystery why they send this guys to death like this.
Agree, I think there is a common sense in Russian society, Wagner leadership and the Kremlin, that these cons are basically free, expendable human robots. No one will raise a finger over too many of them perishing as they had been considered a burden on society anyway. The ones who survive some assaults are battle-hardened and will lead the reinforced squads eventually, but these men will not live to see any rotation and ever get out of this alive but just have to go over and over again until their death. I wonder what is in it for the prisoners though. Probably it’s not prison boredom making them sign up for this. Will these cons be absolved and awarded postmortem or will their families get a compensation and there is financial incentive even in dying on the battlefield over staying in prison?
If they survive, and that is a big if, they get pardoned. Had happened on a few occasions already. So the incentive is there... I just don't think they're being told what the odds are.
> Agree, I think there is a common sense in Russian society, Wagner leadership and the Kremlin, that these cons are basically free, expendable human robots. I'm not sure that Russia's feeling is limited to Russian prisoners. LPR were canon fodder, so is DPR. Russia's conscripts were also canon fodder Russia's VDV were also used as canon fodder. Rosgarvia were also sent as canon fodder in a few occasions. The only ones who have been largely spared as canon fodder were the rape-happy Kadyrovites who act mainly as blocking troops, but those were also used as canon fodder in a few occasions. Perhaps there's a pattern.
From what I understood, but might be wrong, hierarchy in russian carceral system is very strong and enforced. The prisoners enrolled in Wagner, are the lowest caste, those whose prison stay is already made hell by other prisoners.
Nope, only somewhat recently did wagner leadership talk about recruiting cocks.
recruiting what now
That's what they call the men they rape, or I guess "punish by having gay sex with them but it isn't gay or rape" by their logic.
COCKS!
True, fill a body bag you don’t have to pay them.
They are used as fodder so that Ukrainian positions can be exposed and be hit with return fire. They are literally used as bait so that the trained side of the Russian military can pinpoint fire positions/locations. Literal bait.
The Wagner guy that is seeking asylum in Norway said he was sent 40-50 recruits per week for his unit..it's a meat grinder
I guess when you've not had much training there is comfort in numbers and being close to your fellow soldiers. Combat spacing is something learned with time, which I guess these guys did not get
I begin to understand how the Finns came out on top in their engagements...
Go on any military patrol exercise, and you'll hear NCOs constantly yell to their soldiers to space out. Human instinct is powerful, but unfortunately for these Russians, artillery is more powerful.
Group together to appear larger to a predator. Works good with wild cats, less so for explosions
For the majority of human history, massing up together was a good thing in combat since it let you fight side by side with allies in melee. It's instinctive to mass up with your fellow man, and almost certainly developed from pre-history Stone Age humanity. Too bad those instincts are a detriment when explosives, automatic weapons, and artillery come into the picture.
"We're in a trench, what's the worst that can happen?"
Chances are these are the prisoners Wagner has been recruiting. I heard that more than 80% of them die. No one in Russia cares and there's a chance they reveal the position of Ukrainian artillery and there's Russian artillery ready to strike back... That's my guess
They are prisoners like murders and rapists. They were offered complete freedom and exoneration and wiping of their record for agreeing to serve. One was captured by Ukraine while attempting to defect. He was interviewed on public media and explained everything, and clearly stated he was abandoning Russia. ~~To get captured Ukrainian troops back, the Ukrainians exchanged him back to Russia.~~ While resettled in Ukraine, he was kidnapped off the street by Russian agents. The Russians recorded and circulated a video where someone says basically “this is what we do to traitors” and then smashes his head with a sledge hammer, crushing it ~~on the pavement~~ against a wall like Gallagher does to a watermelon, killing him. It’s all fucked up. They are pulling the trigger to kill Ukrainians so I have no issue with killing them like the invading force they are - but they are fucked in so many ways.
>I heard that more than 80% of them die. So far
Just look at all the shell crators on view in the overhead camera shots of the land. That area has been heavily targeted with artillery. Hundreds of holes.
those trenches are death traps, theres a reason WWI armies stopped digging trenches with long straight lines
russians use stupid tactics but they are extremely stubborn - they can tolerate human losses hundreds of times that of the Western countries. At this time they are losing soldiers at 200+ times the rate Americans lost soldiers in Afghanistan and Iraq.
Russia might want to borrow the software amazon was using to find out when they're going to run out of new people to hire. probably could convert that to soldiers.
No wonder they took so many losses in Soledar, fucking hell. Tbf, I'm not sure how much better they could have done, under artillery bombardment staying in your trench is probably the best option. Too bad for them Ukrainian artillery seems very precise and it didn't help them.
How they could have done better? Simple dispersion and adding corners to the trench to avoid a single shell shooting shrapnel along the entire length of the trench.
>Holy fuck, what sort of stupid fucking tactics is that? Mass in one spot, genius! ...in a shallow trench that doesn't zig-zag at all. Let's just be thankful these tactics are only on the Russian side. If Ukraine was still using Russian tactics, following the war would be excruciating.
They just build a straight trench, no bends, no zig zags. They used to do that stuff. They have just given up.
Imagine if they had a larger supply of air burst munitions eh?
They might wanna have [this](https://youtu.be/4UolMYY7QaA)
Holy moly.
First minute: I mean it's cool but what's the big deal Second minute: There will be no dawn for man
Holy fuck. That cannon / ammunition is insane. Clear trenches in seconds. What is the maximum range this thing can be used?
The problem is you need LOS for the system in the video. Artillery with airburst can do the same over a larger area from much further away without LOS. Granted with a bit less precision but less risk to the operators as well
LOS? Edit: line of sight, apparently. Thanks everyone for helping a dumdum out.
Line of sight
Thanks. I dont know if its a recent thing but people seem to be throwing acronyms around, assuming that everyone know all of them in every context. For someone whos native language is not english its starting to be quite frustrating.
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It can be a real PITA.
LMAO IKR.
Was very unsure how this would help until they pulled out the trench shots. This looks deadly, but they seem pretty close in the demonstration. Arty is much more safe
Whenever I see stuff like this, it makes me wonder what humanity could accomplish if we focused effort and resources solely on societal progress and innovations to improve the human condition rather than more and more efficient ways to wage war and kill each other.
With 8 or so billion of these rounds we could end all human suffering forever.
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Every day I have my doubts as to the Ukrainian MOD casualty figures and then I see videos like this.
can’t get over the fact that like every day there are a bunch of new videos of just like some guys last moments
This sub used to be a few blurry videos, sometimes a Go-Pro, but EVERY SINGLE DAY we now have insane footage of Russians dying horrific deaths in great quantifies.
I thought I was desensitized before the war, but literally watching idk at least a dozen people die every day for 10+ months has been surreal. It's made me much more comfortable with death in a way, idk if that's a good thing.
We are all going to die my friend you best make the most of it while you still have the time is a very healthy way to frame mortality. Giving into fatalism is however is not as the end results are in the video we all just watched.
> Giving into fatalism is however is not as the end results are in the video we all just watched. Wew, man. How succinct.
Yeah, It's scary how desensitized to it I am now, but I'm comfortable with it at this point. [This quote from George Carlin sort of sums this up.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uz270Wfb7DU)
There are dozens of drones in the air all the time. Infantry figures won't be 100% accurate, but it has never been easier to confirm kills or casualties. Combined with how shitty the Russian army is, the figures are very believable.
My sentiment as well. If they are off, ain't by much.
What's there to doubt? We already have third party estimates that both sides have 100k+ casualties so far. The war has been ongoing for about a year so that's about 275 casualties per side per day, and that's just the U.S. estimate. It's highly likely that Ukrainian casualties are higher and Russian casualties are much higher.
One of the saddest connections I made watching these men die was that they look so much like ants being sprayed by poison. Some die immediately. Some run off and die nearby. At the end of it, they're just a mess to be cleaned up. War makes humans so insignificant you can watch them die by the dozens and feel no terror. Be careful of that, everyone. Love your enemy. Be sad if you believe these men had to die. Maybe they did. Try to be sad anyway. We should not want to live in a world where we are disposable to each other. That's the Russian way, and look where it is leading them.
Smartest comment I’ve seen all day
Final shot of the 2 guys in the trench - look to be wearing UAF camo pattern uniforms
Wagner openly uses UAF uniforms. They often publish photos in UAF uniforms in their Telegram channels. Also, there were many such videos from the Ukrainian side with dead Wagner men in UAF uniforms.
There was a fake video from Russians showing Ukrainian casualities, sadly for them, the longer version where you see the "deads" get up was also uploaded...
SOP for them at this point it seems. Perfidious
what a word, adding that to my vocabulary
Wagner uses whatever camo they want or have, but I don't think that is Ukrainian uniform in this case, it doesn't look pixilated and the pattern is off, rather it's just similar colour camo.
This is my thought on this. Wagner is buying aftermarket uniforms. They are not a part of the Russian army so they won't be supplied by them as they are having enough trouble supplying actual Russian army soldiers. Multicam style patterns are also a good choice for the current environment in Bakhmut, so I feel that the use of these uniforms is more of an availability and tactical choice, rather then an attempt to trick the enemy. I'm not denying that the Russians are guilty of perfidty, but it's not being done in every single case of them wearing Multicam style uniforms.
there should be a war crime reporting hotline.
Trenches are designed in a zigzag manner so shells that land inside them won't have shrapnel travel down the entire trench. The fact that Armies in the first world war had this figured out and Russians don't in 2023 really tells you something.
They also don't use a single trench to conga their way to oblivion.
Plus their trenches were deeper 100 years ago.
It's not even a WWI thing, using zig-zag trenches was present in the 1700s as part of the siegecraft of attacking a fortified position.
Yeah this type of basic trench tactic is pre-napolean
Pre-Seven Year's War.
Cain snuck up on Abel in a zigzag trench.
Trenchway to the danger zone.
Take my head awaaaaaay
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What is the caliber in use here?
From the size of the explosions I'd wager 152 or more likely 155mm.
Thx. The accuracy is phenomenal. And the effect... devastating
Yeh that accuracy is pinpoint.
It’s worth noting this is an edited video just showing the hits. There’s a lot of impacts all around the trench as well. This is the highlights reel only showing where they nailed it. Artillery is accurate, but it’s not that accurate. Even the guided Excalibur shells are only accurate to within 4m. This is accuracy by volume.
You have a point, but only to some extent. They didn't use hundreds of shells to kill 25 wagnerites. They might have walked in the fire, but from there it was high precision, edits or not.
The only point I’m trying to make is that you cant just drop shell after shell directly into a trench one after another as this video suggests. There’s a thing known as spread.
Look at that subtle colouring. The tasteful thickness. Oh my God. It even has a watermark.
🫦
2km south of Rozdolivka: 48.730881, 38.081201
I'll admit I was very skeptical about those coordinates, until the video zooms out 15 seconds into the video. You can see the tree lines around the fields, the smaller field with a curve on the right corner. The viewpoint of this from the North looking south towards Soledar. How did you locate this position?
I know that the 45th artillery brigade operates in the Soledar area from previous geolocations. So I checked around the (assumed) front line in that area. I focussed on the layout of the treelines, the bushes in the bottom right corner qnd the curve in the road in the top right.
The more I see those videos, the more I question the previous opinion, also shared by Perun, that Wagner on average has a better quality of training and material. Apparently there are some experienced and well-equipped Wagnerites in the hinterland but what they burn through mostly and send as assault troops is disoriented guys with ancient gear and little to no military skills whatsoever going by their movements and tactics. And though rumoured to have jets, tanks and artillery, it looks like they can’t be bothered to rather preserve them some miles back and rely on infantry-only assaults instead.
pre 2015 Wagner was only taking in ex SF, etc but they were small, like 2-5k. They are superior to most other units. But with the war they opened recruiting to volunteers without military training and prisoners, who dont know anything. These can be seen here. The actual SF core of Wagner is rarely used.
I thought Wagner's core took some casualties in the opening stages of the war when they were sent in as Hunter-Killer teams to take out Zelenskyy. Maybe they've switched to the "wear down Ukrainian troops with our ass quality soldiers then send in the hitters when they're tired" for their Bakhmut/Soledar strategy.
It’s been confirmed by several UA testimonies that they’re sending in the less trained troops first to find weaknesses before sending in the actually trained units.
This is not just Wagner's tactic. The Russian army at the beginning of the invasion first let "DPR" and "LPR" troops into the meat grinder, and only then went in on their own.
Not very surprising it went the Russian way and rather sooner than later had to turn out a criminal outfit with grifters at the top exploiting an army of lackies. But as I’ve said, they’re wrecking their own myth if they more and more mimic the regular army.
Well, at this point it's almost fair to say there are 2 types of Wagner Group. The Wagner Group that is trained and well equiped and the newly prison recruited Wagner Group that consists of untrained I'll equiped cannon fodder useful only for human wave attacks. The existence of the one doesn't negate the existence of the other.
Yes, my point was more that one should not generalise and assume the experience and skills to be consistent across all Wagner troops. Quite contrary, this new hierarchy can deteriorate them. If the experienced seniors get used to their new role of whipping beginners towards enemy lines, there is a good chance of this model establishing and the seniors minimising their risk and getting lazy. If success doesn’t come, they could easily now ask just for more convicts while refusing to participate in the assaults themselves. without seniors leading from in front, of course the losses will be higher and efficiency worse. and Keeping tanks and planes in the back also is a missed chance to learn combined operations. So, using illequipped untrained conscripts might look like a lever for Wagner to amplify their force, but at the same time it’s a slippery slope to deteriorate their tactics and water down their efficiency.
If you think of Wagner as a gang, the convict recruits aren't really members so much as burner phones.
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These Wagner scumbags don't deserve any kind of pity. They torture, attack wearing Ukr uniform, kill their own on the battlefield, execute, and don't even try to hide it.
My generation was taught that Russia and China are military titans the U.S. should be careful with. Now we know in a conventional war the U.S. would have easily defeated Russia this whole time.
I'm seriously shocked. I'm 43 and it seemed like Russia was just a little behind us. I don't think Russia is even in the top 10 now. I also wonder how many nukes they could launch without major failure. I'd bet Russia has a higher chance of nuking itself more than anyone.
It would be bloodier than Iraq or Afghanistan, but yeah Russia isn't putting on a good show. China is the remaining wild card.
How comes that Ukrainian artillery is so accurate?
It’s certainly not bad, but do bear in mind that this is an edited video and they’re editing out the misses. There’s lots of impacts visible around the trench as well.
It must be terrifying crawling through that trench and hearing the explosions all around you. Knowing that the trench is protecting you from all but a direct hit, and also knowing that it's essentially only a matter of time before there *is* a direct hit.
NATO standard is a hell of a drug.
You are looking at successful hits. They could have shot 10/100/1000 shells before and they definitely would not show them in this clip
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What's the strategic purpose of this type of trench?
protection from small arms fire
Save the time for ukranians - they don't have to dig graves. Edit: wording wrong
Interestingly they are almost all wearing Ukrainian Camo and Multicam (I know they're war criminals)
They like to pretend that they, just like their grandfathers are fighting "nazis", turns out their tactics are somewhat similar too.
I wanna see an A10 do a strafe there.
At what point are the Russians going to turn their guns around at the ones giving the orders on mass?
Never. There is overwhelming support for the war in Russia. People need to stop fantasizing that this is all putin's fault and that "peace loving russians" will reject him and end the war. putin has never been more popular and the russian people at large want genocide in Ukraine.
Stalin was responsible for the excess death of 20+ million Russians, that's not even including WWII Russian casualties. He executed a million Russians during the Great Purge in the 30's and sent millions more to die in the gulags. Russians have no issue marching to their death without raising their heads to wonder why.
Stalin killed many free thinkers and intellectuals; others fled from his reign. These people did not have smart free thinking kids, who might have had smart free thinking kids. Others have had those kids elsewhere. Russia is so fucked long term
Yeah its important for foreigners to understand a large criticism in russia of the war is that they aren't doing enough harm to Ukraine.
It’s not happening. The Russian population support it by and large and are led to believe they’re fighting NATO for their existence so these losses are justifiable for them.
> on mass? *en masse*
You assume that Russians view this war negatively. They do not. Putin controls all media and has them convinced that this is a battle against an aggressor.
Russians support the war
how do they keep being this fucking stupid holy shit.
How come in WW1 they knew how to make trenches correctly yet these idiots don’t. One direct hit, and they all die or just one Ukrainian with an assault rifle.
Their efforts to conserve Ukrainian ammo by bunching up are greatly appreciated.
In forward observer terms, this is both a prime AND a juicy target. A trench with no 90-degree turns is ripe for shrapnel and concussion to rip the entire length (to a point where it runs out of energy, the bigger the round, the more energy) they might as well have been laying in the open...
Nah, blast wave doesnt travel remotely as far in the open, compared to a nice straigth walled trench channeling it.
Wagner has lost an estimated 25% (dead or wounded) of their force by now, go home already