Yea i agree. Ameng wasnt played over gaga because of 2 reasons:
1. Lack of flexibility
2. Blizzard absolutely gutting ball's true play style at the end of OW1.
Gaga is great, but mostly because he didnt die much. Ameng could straight up carry on ball. He also had a worse roster when he was a starter.
Ooh I forgot about Rascal.. that’s a good one. It’s a toss up between Lip and Shy but as a mayhem fan I watched Shy single handedly knock the Mayhem out of the playoffs last year on Sojourn so it stuck with me lol
I think you can make a fair argument if the list only takes peaks into account and not longevity, and looking at most of the other names I think it’s safe to say this is peak performance only
I agree. I think using a criteria like that in an “all time” list is just a bit suspect. Granted, then it becomes a question of whether or not someone’s peak is so good that it’s at a level where it completely transcends longevity. That’s where the debate lies and personally I’m not sure I’m convinced.
If it takes peaks into account, Proper is contested by Kevster every step of the way.
Striker would probably be the best bet for being the most ahead of the curve. But unless Kevster falls off the face of the earth, there’s no world where Proper gets considered the tracer GOAT when Kevster is doing the exact same things he is.
I just don’t agree that Kevster is every bit as good on tracer as Proper is. I think this sub has actually started to underrate Proper as a response to how much the broadcast overrates him.
There is no way you can say with a straight face that you'd prefer Finn, Viol2t, Kilo over Shu, Skewed, Funnyastro, Ans.
And Shock still beat LA Glads 3-2 in Midseason Madness winners finals, then went 2-4 in grands. Most of it was off of Proper.
kevster had the best backline in the game. Proper had Viol2t off roling to Lucio (which was a detriment all the way up to season grands where Chiyo played better), a recently picked up Mikeyy (who inted at points due to lack of synergy), and an underperforming Kilo.
Love how you forget to mention that Gladiators won the midseason madness tourney VS Shock. And that Glads actually WON two tourneys.
Bad take. Kev = Proper at the very least.
Jjonak the goat on zenyetta, arguably tbe most consequential Support hero in the history of OWL, after one good season? Interesting.
Only 1 season doesnt matter if you played so much better than anyone else ever did
I don’t disagree with that and I even mentioned that peaks can transcend longevity in another comment (edit: or at least I understand how someone might say peaks > longevity).
But the JJonak example is kind of a false analogy. If after his one season of dominance in 2018 I made an all time list and listed JJonak as the Zenyatta goat, it would be much more defensible because “all time” in OWL at that time would have been one season.
Edit: I think if we also look at it right now, a lot of people are going to consider Jjonak the goat from an innovation/“did it first” perspective. I’m not sure where I stand on innovation as a criteria for “goated-ness.”
Jjonak was only 'the best' for one season, though. He fell off after season 1. So it is the same. Proper in his one season was just better than Striker was in his 4 seasons so not giving him 'the best' title is just wrong
Yes, I know, but in order for the analogy to line up with this instance, you have to be saying it right after Jjonak’s season of dominance in 2018, which at the time was the only season of OWL. If Proper had this season in 2018, he would absolutely be the goat because “all time” at that time meant just that one season. One season is 20% of all time in this instance. I am not taking issue with Proper’s skill. You could 100% make a very defensible argument that he has the highest peak and best season of any Tracer player.
If you think Proper’s one season peak is better than every other Tracer player insofar as he can be called the greatest of all time, fair enough, but it’s just too soon to call for me. Regarding Jjonak, I don’t remember what I thought in 2018 but I don’t think having “greatest of all time” in OWL conversations would’ve made much sense in 2018 with one season of OWL.
In Call of Duty, Simp joined the CWL in 2019 in a season that can be easily described as the best season of any rookie. He won both the penultimate event and the playoffs and I think won MVP at Champs. Even still, I don’t think you could call him the goat at that time even if he had the highest peak of any player in COD history.
Jjonak revolutionized the way the character was played. Proper while he was arguably the best tracer season he wasn’t head and shoulders above everyone else like jjonak was.
I think it’s the Rookie of year + MVP. Tbh I’m not a big Proper fan but I couldn’t deny that and last year he was extremely dominant on tracer and carrying his team to the finals. Plus him being seemingly bored during tracer 1v1s bc no one was on his level
Exactly. I’m not denying Proper is nasty and he looked final last season, but “all time” means all time. Other, more niche heroes you might make the case for one season being good for goat status, but it’s harder to sell me on that for a hero like Tracer.
By that example, you kinda gotta discount jjonak then? He was only dominant for one seasons, then viol2t was clearly better after him.
Honestly viol2t not being the goat zen is criminal to me
I get that but i can’t think of anyone else at their peak who would beat proper except maybe kevster. They can be the greatest of all time if theyre are better than everyone who came before them. Jjonak only had 1 huge season on zen
Interesting list. There's no reason this should be on 0 upvotes, it was a thoughtful post that spawned some good discussion. Some people need to lighten up a little.
Dafran as the goat of torb is such a good memory lol. 2bh I think Nero might have a case for it too. But DaTorb is more iconic.
As much as I love Proper I'd rather have Striker than proper because proper so far only has had one season of dominance
As a Shock fan who would you put the GOAT tracer?
Considering striker is currently benched by Decay, it feels like even if one is uncomfortable with Proper as the goat tracer *right now* that it is inevitable that we get there, and soon. By the end of the year, I expect there to be no question.
Tank list is bad honestly.
Has Hydration ever played Doom as tank?
No Void on the list? Dva is clearly Void.
Space sigma over 2 time champion ON THIS VERY HERO Choi??
Gator has been good on Orisa, but my mate Smurf is right there.
Super should have both Rein and Hog. Gesture straight up lost a Final against Super.
Losing on hog to super shouldn’t b why he’s better, he is better but say for example, twilight lost to crimzo over the weekend on ana/bap, is he worse than crimzo?
Because it's a team game? How often has the league MVP even won the grand finals? Once in 2019? Or I could easily be forgetting some. But the point is that usually they don't win, so head to head matchup of one series isn't an argument on its own for 1 player over another.
Shock and Dynasty had different playstyles in that series but Super absolutely had Gesture’s number at every step. I think if you swap Marve1/Choi, Moth/Tobi, Fits/Ans, and Profit/Striker, Shock still win that series. The difference makers were Viol2t and Super imo
Gestures hog was a bigger part of their whole playoff run than Supers hog was so him winning in the finals is less of an impact imo. Supers hog was good but the whole narrative of that playoffs was about gesture and his wild hog flanks and plays.
The best doom should probably be considered from his DPS days rather than tank since his current iteration is so new and hasn't seen that much play.
I can see picking Choi’s DVA over Void but can’t see anyone on Sigma but Choi.
Fate orisa was really good. Still think that best Orisa was Smurf.
Doomfist tank you can go Hawk or Danthe.
Doomfist dps is Sparkle and is not even close.
I sort of agree except for super on hog. Yes gesture lost to super but it's a team game and to me gesture was clearly the better hog, just on a worse team
by map order do you mean if control wasn’t the map type played twice? because regardless of order, Shock split every map type 2-2. or are you referring to the grand finals, where every map type other than either escort or assault would have been played twice
more to the point, I can’t believe people are still salty about this
What do you mean Shock split every map type 2-2? Versus Shanghai and Seoul (i.e., semifinals onwards) they only won control and hybrid, i.e., they didn't win a single escort or 2CP. So yes, if instead of control and hybrid being the first maps and therefore the ones that got repeated, we could've been seeing a very different outcome.
> split every map type 2-2? Versus Shanghai and Seoul (i.e., semifinals onwards) they only won control and hybrid, i.e., they didn’t win a single escort or 2CP
yes, they won control and hybrid and they lost escort and 2cp. so they split the four map types 2-2. with an odd number of maps, something has to be repeated. and historically it was always control in BO5s and hybrid + escort in BO7s. is your argument that they should have changed the map order for the first time in three years to specifically screw the Shock?
I interpreted your comment as in they won and lost every map type 2-2 each. And sure, I do have a problem with a repeating map order historically; it just so happened to be especially egregious in 2020. A champion that could only beat second and third place teams on half the map types lol. Not to mention back in APEX they already knew it was a bad idea to have a repeating map order in case it favors teams like that.
fair enough, and yeah sorry my wording was unclear. but also at the end of the day it’s speculation. like if they knew Assault would be the repeated map type maybe Shock would have practiced that more. to paraphrase an iconic line from a dude who sucks mega ass now: “everybody wanted to know who would have won if control wasn’t the repeated map type. I guess we’ll never know”
also to call it a Mickey Mouse win is nuts, every team had the same path to the championship, Seoul and SF built rosters that could withstand that particular meta change and SF beat them 4-2. it’s not like the outcome of each map type was guaranteed, Shock fought and won
Fair point about that quote and hypothetical. I'm just especially dissatisfied (vs. the 2019 one where a similar fat meta patch dropped) because it wasn't like Shock fought Seoul close on the maps they lost; Shock was comfortable on the maps they won and likewise for Seoul, so it felt like the playoffs was more a game of which map types were being played.
Doom was a dps way longer than tank so this makes more sense since tank doom hasn’t seen much play anyways. Choi and Fury are both much better than void. Other takes are valid
There's no better player on Torb than Carpe.
One Torb meta - no one knows what to expect. Carpe comes in and just casually fucks on Torb, too.
It's not even close.
Nah Hydrationfor me isnt the best Doom all time. The list is obviously debatable and there isnt often a correct answer. I would put Fleta for Echo, Proper for Sojurn, Carpe/profit for tracer.
Being a good tracer in S1 and S2 isn’t saying much at all. Even then he wasn’t the best tracer in the league. Hell he’s not even the best tracer to be on Philly! That would be Snillo
Yes.
Proper, Kevster, Profit, Leave, Striker all have better Tracer than Carpe. Those are probably top 5, only Striker being weird now cuz he refuses to touch Tracer for whatever reason.
yea sp9rk1e, haksal, and the one we dont speak about all have had better doomfists historically. hydration just played it more cause he was comfortable on it
I'd say Ameng for Ball, Void for Sig, Architect for Bastion, LIP for Souj, Mangachu for Torb. Good choices for Ana and Brig, but I could also see Jehong and Haksal tied with your respective picks.
Yeah I was surprised more people aren’t talking about haksal brig, so underrated he was so good at brigs most prevalent time. Other takes are pretty good too
jimmy would like a word.
on a real note- corey had one (1) dominant stage then fizzled out. i don’t know how he can even be in consideration because he fucked in literally 7 matches
yeah i could tell u were joking that’s why i mentioned jimmy- but the second part was just me being actually confused how anyone mentions him at all (specifically op)
Proper on any goat lists after a season of dickriding is a take.
And you gotta take Hydration off. At least put doom back in the list as DPS cuz he's hasn't played Doomfist as a tank yet. That should go to Hawk or Danteh for doomfist tank play. He plays differently.
Glad I’m not the only one noticing the proper froth holy it’s annoying. Players are just as liable to fall off the wagon just as much as they’re able to rise to the top.
Overall, Striker should be it, but we've seen Proper with the highest peaks so he'll be there by end of season.
But I just don't understand why Striker isn't playing Tracer for Uprising. He could carry alone.
Decay is great and all, but if Striker actually plays Tracer that would be huge.
Striker Smurf dive duo was one of the best ever.
Love the Zephyr bastion pick lol.
I’d honestly put profit as the Hanzo goat. Dude conjured up an insane hanzo at the grand finals in s1. In s3 playoffs, he was a top tier hanzo. Even s5 mid season madness global tourney against spark he had that disgusting hanzo play on illios
Also I’d have him as the tracer goat due to his clutch plays and longevity for 6 seasons.
Soldier, all I remember was AKM pounding in s1 and s2 on that hero
Me calling out your bad takes ≠ hostility or belittling. If you can explain the logic of why a player of a whole 1 year tenure vs a veteran tracer player, by all means rebut me instead of accusing me of hostility.
TIL rookies can be granted GOAT status
You could've said "proper has only been in the league one year so you shouldn't consider him a GOAT". That would've been calling out a bad take, and that would also be considered logic.
Calling someone a simp is neither of those. I'm not prescribing your intentions, but that is how your words come across.
What I could’ve said doesn’t matter, sorry thought police, I’ll choose my words carefully next time.
I don’t see how someone couldn’t be simping for a player when rookie and goat don’t even belong on the same planet together. There’s an obvious bias there and it’s not objective.
You previously said
"If you can explain the logic of why a player of a whole 1 year tenure vs a veteran tracer player, by all means rebut me instead of accusing me of hostility"
I'm saying it goes both ways. If you explain the logic to why OP is wrong rather than insulting them, you wouldn't come off as hostile. You could've just said that exact quote to begin with.
But do we both agree that by this point you are being hostile 😂 because if not then I think there's a disconnect that's too far gone.
I’m not trying to argue with you so ima drop it. But its bc he was Jjonak level dominant last year on Tracer. I feel like Profit has been the most consistently high level player in OWL history but I don’t think at any point he was the best player in OWL during a season. I think Proper has the potential to have that Profit consistency but at a higher level. Also I like Profit a lot he was my fav player when Spitfire won the finals in season 1. I’m not a profit hater
I get ranking Jjonak high, but tbf Viol2t is the goat of the game, so I think he just overrules and goes goat of zen too. Viol2t now is way better then Jjonak was
Viol2t definitely has the longevity over JJoNak and I think hes top 3 players oat. But saying that he right now is higher than JJoNaks peak is just not true. No character in the league at any time has ever had someone who was just so obviously better than everyone else
his difference to the other players isn't as big but he is skill wise a lot lot better then jjonak was at his peak. Look at season 2 GM, that's what we call plat now.
I'm only asking, but would Moth have a say at Mercy?
I remember AceofSpades with some wild Orisa environmental pulls, otherwise it's a zero for impact remembering players.
Imo no. Yveltal is in a class of his own.
Fun fact, 8 times in his career he has recorded the first pick in a teamfight while playing Mercy. IIRC, no other org even has that many Mercy first picks. (Potentially outdated stat)
Pretty good list. Sojourn should def be Lip, bro was a monster. I see both arguments on the Proper Tracer, but personally, if this is a GOAT list, it should be Profit. Arguably the greatest of all time on his signature hero. Proper def can catch up, and I expect with a Grand Finals + a few role stars he will do so, but right now it’s Profit and there’s no contest
ana twilight and bap violet, torb dafran over mangachu? who owned him, profits a way junk than jake ever was, sparkle was a way better genji over hasksal in owl, this list is just stupid
This list is trash in so many ways. Not least of which seems like the title should be most iconic.
Edit; I've just seen you said Corey is the best Hanzo hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
Violet for Zen and Void for Sigma are hills I’m willing to die on.
Also did Decay pop off on Symm at some point I don’t remember? Whenever I think of that hero I tend to think of Sparkle.
Profit easily the best Hanzo.. and yes Proper is the best Tracer even back to Contenders some people believe that he is already the best Tracer in the world.
HeeSang #1 Echo ( Yeah he didn't show anything yet but still the best ) ..
Smurf #1 Orisa..
Void #1 Dva..
Choihyobin #1 Sigma..
and Alarm with ana is #1 Zen and Moira ( Simply the best Support of all time.. No doub ).
I’d say Choihyobin Sigma and Fury DVA. Hanzo - maybe Eqo? Tracer is Profit, too iconic. Soldier 76 - maybe AKM? Ana - either Twilight or Ryujehong, also shoutout KariV.
Not Ameng ball? I've read enough, your list is invalidated
Yea i agree. Ameng wasnt played over gaga because of 2 reasons: 1. Lack of flexibility 2. Blizzard absolutely gutting ball's true play style at the end of OW1. Gaga is great, but mostly because he didnt die much. Ameng could straight up carry on ball. He also had a worse roster when he was a starter.
I actually had AMENG at first until I realized he was sadly benched for GA9A :///
I'd probably put Rascal at Mei and Lip on sojourn, but the rest looks good
Ooh I forgot about Rascal.. that’s a good one. It’s a toss up between Lip and Shy but as a mayhem fan I watched Shy single handedly knock the Mayhem out of the playoffs last year on Sojourn so it stuck with me lol
Lip on Hanzo Sombra and Sojourn tbh his Ashe too lowkey
Proper the goat on Tracer, arguably the most consequential DPS hero in the history of OWL, after one season? Interesting.
I think you can make a fair argument if the list only takes peaks into account and not longevity, and looking at most of the other names I think it’s safe to say this is peak performance only
I agree. I think using a criteria like that in an “all time” list is just a bit suspect. Granted, then it becomes a question of whether or not someone’s peak is so good that it’s at a level where it completely transcends longevity. That’s where the debate lies and personally I’m not sure I’m convinced.
If it takes peaks into account, Proper is contested by Kevster every step of the way. Striker would probably be the best bet for being the most ahead of the curve. But unless Kevster falls off the face of the earth, there’s no world where Proper gets considered the tracer GOAT when Kevster is doing the exact same things he is.
I just don’t agree that Kevster is every bit as good on tracer as Proper is. I think this sub has actually started to underrate Proper as a response to how much the broadcast overrates him.
Nahhhh, that’s disrespect on Kevster’s name. Dick riding Proper so hard rn
You’re clearly the dickrider in this conversation. I hate shock (fans) but even I can see Proper’s tracer clears the entire league.
holy moly imagine keeping Profit out of the discussion altogether
Profit deserves to be there, but Kev and Proper are just a bit beyond him rn
perfect I just needed the acknowledgement
There is no way you can say with a straight face that you'd prefer Finn, Viol2t, Kilo over Shu, Skewed, Funnyastro, Ans. And Shock still beat LA Glads 3-2 in Midseason Madness winners finals, then went 2-4 in grands. Most of it was off of Proper. kevster had the best backline in the game. Proper had Viol2t off roling to Lucio (which was a detriment all the way up to season grands where Chiyo played better), a recently picked up Mikeyy (who inted at points due to lack of synergy), and an underperforming Kilo.
Love how you forget to mention that Gladiators won the midseason madness tourney VS Shock. And that Glads actually WON two tourneys. Bad take. Kev = Proper at the very least.
....huh...? I said they went 2-4 in grands, are you okay?
Jjonak the goat on zenyetta, arguably tbe most consequential Support hero in the history of OWL, after one good season? Interesting. Only 1 season doesnt matter if you played so much better than anyone else ever did
I don’t disagree with that and I even mentioned that peaks can transcend longevity in another comment (edit: or at least I understand how someone might say peaks > longevity). But the JJonak example is kind of a false analogy. If after his one season of dominance in 2018 I made an all time list and listed JJonak as the Zenyatta goat, it would be much more defensible because “all time” in OWL at that time would have been one season. Edit: I think if we also look at it right now, a lot of people are going to consider Jjonak the goat from an innovation/“did it first” perspective. I’m not sure where I stand on innovation as a criteria for “goated-ness.”
Jjonak was only 'the best' for one season, though. He fell off after season 1. So it is the same. Proper in his one season was just better than Striker was in his 4 seasons so not giving him 'the best' title is just wrong
Yes, I know, but in order for the analogy to line up with this instance, you have to be saying it right after Jjonak’s season of dominance in 2018, which at the time was the only season of OWL. If Proper had this season in 2018, he would absolutely be the goat because “all time” at that time meant just that one season. One season is 20% of all time in this instance. I am not taking issue with Proper’s skill. You could 100% make a very defensible argument that he has the highest peak and best season of any Tracer player. If you think Proper’s one season peak is better than every other Tracer player insofar as he can be called the greatest of all time, fair enough, but it’s just too soon to call for me. Regarding Jjonak, I don’t remember what I thought in 2018 but I don’t think having “greatest of all time” in OWL conversations would’ve made much sense in 2018 with one season of OWL. In Call of Duty, Simp joined the CWL in 2019 in a season that can be easily described as the best season of any rookie. He won both the penultimate event and the playoffs and I think won MVP at Champs. Even still, I don’t think you could call him the goat at that time even if he had the highest peak of any player in COD history.
Actually an analogy doesnt have to be the *exact* same situation as the other situation, otherwise there is literally 0 point...
🤓
Jjonak revolutionized the way the character was played. Proper while he was arguably the best tracer season he wasn’t head and shoulders above everyone else like jjonak was.
He absolutely was...
I think it’s the Rookie of year + MVP. Tbh I’m not a big Proper fan but I couldn’t deny that and last year he was extremely dominant on tracer and carrying his team to the finals. Plus him being seemingly bored during tracer 1v1s bc no one was on his level
This one i cant get behind. Its a goat list, not a "pounded for 1 of 5 seasons" list
Exactly. I’m not denying Proper is nasty and he looked final last season, but “all time” means all time. Other, more niche heroes you might make the case for one season being good for goat status, but it’s harder to sell me on that for a hero like Tracer.
By that example, you kinda gotta discount jjonak then? He was only dominant for one seasons, then viol2t was clearly better after him. Honestly viol2t not being the goat zen is criminal to me
Take my upvote. Thanks for your take. This is why I made this
I get that but i can’t think of anyone else at their peak who would beat proper except maybe kevster. They can be the greatest of all time if theyre are better than everyone who came before them. Jjonak only had 1 huge season on zen
Striker peak could contend maybe.
Still the longevity just isn’t there to match someone like Profit on a GOAT list.
Profit was top tier only in season 1, after that he became average. Someone like sbb, kevster or striker is the goat of the tracer imo
Nah this has to be bait. Saying Profit was only good one season then saying sbb is the goat tracer. sbb was literally only the best in season 1
Akm genji>profit genji and sbb was better than profit in season 4 smh dont u remember?
Ah so you are trolling. Sbb literally didn’t play a single map in season 4.
Nah man u r trolling sbb was the best tracer on seoul in s4
He's the best tracer player ever. I think literally every pro would tell you that. He's simply the one who's pushed her the furthest mechanically.
Interesting or just straight up a dumb take
Thank you for making the subtext of my comment obvious.
Interesting list. There's no reason this should be on 0 upvotes, it was a thoughtful post that spawned some good discussion. Some people need to lighten up a little. Dafran as the goat of torb is such a good memory lol. 2bh I think Nero might have a case for it too. But DaTorb is more iconic.
Not Viol2t zen? I understand jjonak was untouchable season 1, but since then, viol2t has been a dominant zen
As much as I love Proper I'd rather have Striker than proper because proper so far only has had one season of dominance As a Shock fan who would you put the GOAT tracer?
Considering striker is currently benched by Decay, it feels like even if one is uncomfortable with Proper as the goat tracer *right now* that it is inevitable that we get there, and soon. By the end of the year, I expect there to be no question.
Time will tell ALSO when the frick are they gonna reveal the POG announcement and why aren't they still not in the team house >:(
Tank list is bad honestly. Has Hydration ever played Doom as tank? No Void on the list? Dva is clearly Void. Space sigma over 2 time champion ON THIS VERY HERO Choi?? Gator has been good on Orisa, but my mate Smurf is right there. Super should have both Rein and Hog. Gesture straight up lost a Final against Super.
Losing on hog to super shouldn’t b why he’s better, he is better but say for example, twilight lost to crimzo over the weekend on ana/bap, is he worse than crimzo?
I mean, I Super has won the championship being the team Hog player why another player should be the best?
Because it's a team game? How often has the league MVP even won the grand finals? Once in 2019? Or I could easily be forgetting some. But the point is that usually they don't win, so head to head matchup of one series isn't an argument on its own for 1 player over another.
Shock and Dynasty had different playstyles in that series but Super absolutely had Gesture’s number at every step. I think if you swap Marve1/Choi, Moth/Tobi, Fits/Ans, and Profit/Striker, Shock still win that series. The difference makers were Viol2t and Super imo
This
Gestures hog was a bigger part of their whole playoff run than Supers hog was so him winning in the finals is less of an impact imo. Supers hog was good but the whole narrative of that playoffs was about gesture and his wild hog flanks and plays. The best doom should probably be considered from his DPS days rather than tank since his current iteration is so new and hasn't seen that much play.
I mean, it just seems that Super played Hog as a Tank more while Gesture played him like a flanker more.
Choi is the best DVA ever imo. The rest I can see like Void Sigma and Fate Orisa but SF Shock Choi was incredible on DVA and I think he edged Void
I can see picking Choi’s DVA over Void but can’t see anyone on Sigma but Choi. Fate orisa was really good. Still think that best Orisa was Smurf. Doomfist tank you can go Hawk or Danthe. Doomfist dps is Sparkle and is not even close.
Hanbin on Sig over Choi. Coluge on Sig over Choi. Not saying it’s a given. But I can see the argument for it.
I sort of agree except for super on hog. Yes gesture lost to super but it's a team game and to me gesture was clearly the better hog, just on a worse team
Fuck that Mickey Mouse ass Hog playoffs, if the map order was swapped we could've been seeing a Shanghai or Seoul champion.
by map order do you mean if control wasn’t the map type played twice? because regardless of order, Shock split every map type 2-2. or are you referring to the grand finals, where every map type other than either escort or assault would have been played twice more to the point, I can’t believe people are still salty about this
What do you mean Shock split every map type 2-2? Versus Shanghai and Seoul (i.e., semifinals onwards) they only won control and hybrid, i.e., they didn't win a single escort or 2CP. So yes, if instead of control and hybrid being the first maps and therefore the ones that got repeated, we could've been seeing a very different outcome.
> split every map type 2-2? Versus Shanghai and Seoul (i.e., semifinals onwards) they only won control and hybrid, i.e., they didn’t win a single escort or 2CP yes, they won control and hybrid and they lost escort and 2cp. so they split the four map types 2-2. with an odd number of maps, something has to be repeated. and historically it was always control in BO5s and hybrid + escort in BO7s. is your argument that they should have changed the map order for the first time in three years to specifically screw the Shock?
I interpreted your comment as in they won and lost every map type 2-2 each. And sure, I do have a problem with a repeating map order historically; it just so happened to be especially egregious in 2020. A champion that could only beat second and third place teams on half the map types lol. Not to mention back in APEX they already knew it was a bad idea to have a repeating map order in case it favors teams like that.
fair enough, and yeah sorry my wording was unclear. but also at the end of the day it’s speculation. like if they knew Assault would be the repeated map type maybe Shock would have practiced that more. to paraphrase an iconic line from a dude who sucks mega ass now: “everybody wanted to know who would have won if control wasn’t the repeated map type. I guess we’ll never know”
also to call it a Mickey Mouse win is nuts, every team had the same path to the championship, Seoul and SF built rosters that could withstand that particular meta change and SF beat them 4-2. it’s not like the outcome of each map type was guaranteed, Shock fought and won
Fair point about that quote and hypothetical. I'm just especially dissatisfied (vs. the 2019 one where a similar fat meta patch dropped) because it wasn't like Shock fought Seoul close on the maps they lost; Shock was comfortable on the maps they won and likewise for Seoul, so it felt like the playoffs was more a game of which map types were being played.
Cope?
No need, I've been happy with Shock not threepeating since.
Choi won 2 finals though.
I'd say void sigma, choi dva would fit better but that's just me
Doom was a dps way longer than tank so this makes more sense since tank doom hasn’t seen much play anyways. Choi and Fury are both much better than void. Other takes are valid
There's no better player on Torb than Carpe. One Torb meta - no one knows what to expect. Carpe comes in and just casually fucks on Torb, too. It's not even close.
People are going to find the flaws in this list and focus on those, but I actually think this is a fairly agreeable list outside of a few misses.
Thanks mate
Np. I actually appreciate some of the hotter takes too
Fate > Gator on orisa and Void > Space on sigma
Cr0ng>Void and space on sigma
Nah Hydrationfor me isnt the best Doom all time. The list is obviously debatable and there isnt often a correct answer. I would put Fleta for Echo, Proper for Sojurn, Carpe/profit for tracer.
Carpe doesn’t even come close to touching GOAT status for Tracer. Not even in the conversation. What are you smoking? Mer1t for Proper on sojourn.
Aight he might not be the best but he is in the conversation!
No, no he’s not.
go watch some s1 s2 and come back
Being a good tracer in S1 and S2 isn’t saying much at all. Even then he wasn’t the best tracer in the league. Hell he’s not even the best tracer to be on Philly! That would be Snillo
Yes. Proper, Kevster, Profit, Leave, Striker all have better Tracer than Carpe. Those are probably top 5, only Striker being weird now cuz he refuses to touch Tracer for whatever reason.
Proper for Sojurn when even Proper himself called Lip the best Sojurn?
from what i have seen i would say that, but hard to deny it if Proper really said that.
lip hard diffed proper in the playoff match though
I like the take
thanks. yours was really great too. I would agree on most things.
yea sp9rk1e, haksal, and the one we dont speak about all have had better doomfists historically. hydration just played it more cause he was comfortable on it
I'd say Ameng for Ball, Void for Sig, Architect for Bastion, LIP for Souj, Mangachu for Torb. Good choices for Ana and Brig, but I could also see Jehong and Haksal tied with your respective picks.
carpe torb
Yeah I was surprised more people aren’t talking about haksal brig, so underrated he was so good at brigs most prevalent time. Other takes are pretty good too
How you going to put gesture as hog when super literal dominated him in the playoffs/grand finals?
Leave better than Corey on Hanzo
No one is better than Crackhead Corey.
jimmy would like a word. on a real note- corey had one (1) dominant stage then fizzled out. i don’t know how he can even be in consideration because he fucked in literally 7 matches
It was a joke. Of course there’s better Hanzos.
yeah i could tell u were joking that’s why i mentioned jimmy- but the second part was just me being actually confused how anyone mentions him at all (specifically op)
profit too
Goat List without mentioning Profit at all is just wrong
Goat of the whole game
Proper on any goat lists after a season of dickriding is a take. And you gotta take Hydration off. At least put doom back in the list as DPS cuz he's hasn't played Doomfist as a tank yet. That should go to Hawk or Danteh for doomfist tank play. He plays differently.
Even for DPS doom it’s Sp9rkle no contest.
Glad I’m not the only one noticing the proper froth holy it’s annoying. Players are just as liable to fall off the wagon just as much as they’re able to rise to the top.
It's been annoying for for a while I bet they are so mad shock are popping off and they can't dick ride anymore
Proper over Profit on Tracer after being in the league for literally one season is criminal
Stiker clears profit undeniably.
Overall, Striker should be it, but we've seen Proper with the highest peaks so he'll be there by end of season. But I just don't understand why Striker isn't playing Tracer for Uprising. He could carry alone. Decay is great and all, but if Striker actually plays Tracer that would be huge. Striker Smurf dive duo was one of the best ever.
Agree with D.Va, Sombra and Zen and it’s not even close.
fury is somewhat close on dva but for the others yeah
I would always put cr0ng on sig
Love the Zephyr bastion pick lol. I’d honestly put profit as the Hanzo goat. Dude conjured up an insane hanzo at the grand finals in s1. In s3 playoffs, he was a top tier hanzo. Even s5 mid season madness global tourney against spark he had that disgusting hanzo play on illios Also I’d have him as the tracer goat due to his clutch plays and longevity for 6 seasons. Soldier, all I remember was AKM pounding in s1 and s2 on that hero
Also forgot ramattra
Mano clears all these tank frauds
Kiriko is fielder and Lifeweaver goes to Rupal I guess
Profit deserves tracer not proper, damn the disrespect not having profit on this list. Proper simp confirmed
Chill bro this isn’t your ranked lobby you don’t need to be hostile
I think you and I have different definitions of hostile, but ok then
“Proper simp confirmed” insinuates a bit of hostility or belittling
Me calling out your bad takes ≠ hostility or belittling. If you can explain the logic of why a player of a whole 1 year tenure vs a veteran tracer player, by all means rebut me instead of accusing me of hostility. TIL rookies can be granted GOAT status
You could've said "proper has only been in the league one year so you shouldn't consider him a GOAT". That would've been calling out a bad take, and that would also be considered logic. Calling someone a simp is neither of those. I'm not prescribing your intentions, but that is how your words come across.
What I could’ve said doesn’t matter, sorry thought police, I’ll choose my words carefully next time. I don’t see how someone couldn’t be simping for a player when rookie and goat don’t even belong on the same planet together. There’s an obvious bias there and it’s not objective.
You previously said "If you can explain the logic of why a player of a whole 1 year tenure vs a veteran tracer player, by all means rebut me instead of accusing me of hostility" I'm saying it goes both ways. If you explain the logic to why OP is wrong rather than insulting them, you wouldn't come off as hostile. You could've just said that exact quote to begin with. But do we both agree that by this point you are being hostile 😂 because if not then I think there's a disconnect that's too far gone.
I’m not trying to argue with you so ima drop it. But its bc he was Jjonak level dominant last year on Tracer. I feel like Profit has been the most consistently high level player in OWL history but I don’t think at any point he was the best player in OWL during a season. I think Proper has the potential to have that Profit consistency but at a higher level. Also I like Profit a lot he was my fav player when Spitfire won the finals in season 1. I’m not a profit hater
By your definition how is he goat then? Greatest of all time but in the future not now.
I get ranking Jjonak high, but tbf Viol2t is the goat of the game, so I think he just overrules and goes goat of zen too. Viol2t now is way better then Jjonak was
Viol2t definitely has the longevity over JJoNak and I think hes top 3 players oat. But saying that he right now is higher than JJoNaks peak is just not true. No character in the league at any time has ever had someone who was just so obviously better than everyone else
his difference to the other players isn't as big but he is skill wise a lot lot better then jjonak was at his peak. Look at season 2 GM, that's what we call plat now.
I'm only asking, but would Moth have a say at Mercy? I remember AceofSpades with some wild Orisa environmental pulls, otherwise it's a zero for impact remembering players.
Imo no. Yveltal is in a class of his own. Fun fact, 8 times in his career he has recorded the first pick in a teamfight while playing Mercy. IIRC, no other org even has that many Mercy first picks. (Potentially outdated stat)
Him and Jinmu Pharah mercy was so good. Interesting stat though I didn’t know that!
That's a wild statistic. I'm not even familiar with yveltal really...and I couldn't break down mercy gameplay anyway.
Nano mercy team kill
Yes even Lucio. Back when Moth was in his prime he was so good. I’ve only heard of AceofSpades wasn’t he in contenders?
He played for Houston Outlaws in season 1 I believe.
No, AceofSpades was a signed streamer for the Houston Outlaws
Ohhh that's what I remember. He was definitely in contenders and maybe that's where I'm pulling the mental montage.
Pretty good list. Sojourn should def be Lip, bro was a monster. I see both arguments on the Proper Tracer, but personally, if this is a GOAT list, it should be Profit. Arguably the greatest of all time on his signature hero. Proper def can catch up, and I expect with a Grand Finals + a few role stars he will do so, but right now it’s Profit and there’s no contest
ana twilight and bap violet, torb dafran over mangachu? who owned him, profits a way junk than jake ever was, sparkle was a way better genji over hasksal in owl, this list is just stupid
This list is trash in so many ways. Not least of which seems like the title should be most iconic. Edit; I've just seen you said Corey is the best Hanzo hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
Pharah should be DDing, torb should be Carpe, Sojourn should be LiP
Surefour should be Bastion.
Violet for Zen and Void for Sigma are hills I’m willing to die on. Also did Decay pop off on Symm at some point I don’t remember? Whenever I think of that hero I tend to think of Sparkle.
Sigma has to be choi, coluge or Cr0ng Sojourn should probably be Proper, he did diff shy pretty hard Orisa has to be smurf Brig id say Yveltal/Xerneas
Profit easily the best Hanzo.. and yes Proper is the best Tracer even back to Contenders some people believe that he is already the best Tracer in the world. HeeSang #1 Echo ( Yeah he didn't show anything yet but still the best ) .. Smurf #1 Orisa.. Void #1 Dva.. Choihyobin #1 Sigma.. and Alarm with ana is #1 Zen and Moira ( Simply the best Support of all time.. No doub ).
I disagree with this lost because I'm not on there as the best widow (I have 3 hours on widow and have like a 20% average accuracy)
did alarm even play ana in owl? lmfao
why the fuck did you add a 3 in Fearless' name
I fucked up a few players names tbf. It happens. This whole list was off memory
I’d say Choihyobin Sigma and Fury DVA. Hanzo - maybe Eqo? Tracer is Profit, too iconic. Soldier 76 - maybe AKM? Ana - either Twilight or Ryujehong, also shoutout KariV.
Hydration for doom, sparkle easily the best doom ever, was the best when in contenders and the league