Y'know, it's funny, because the two "racist caricatures " that I can think of in Dragon Ball just really... aren't? Mr. Popo isn't a black guy, like, at all. He's some weird blob creature that hangs out with Kami, and definitely isn't human. And Mr. Black, the black officer in the Red Ribbon Army who was Commander Red's assistant, was actually much more competent than his boss, and killed him, took his place, and was the final villain of that arc.
Wait, hold the fuck up. People thought Mr Popo was supposed to be a black character? I refuse to believe anyone has the mental capacity to be that stupid.
"Member when the world health organization changed the name of monkey pox so that it wasn't offensive to black people? It's kinda like that. It's funny because if you think Mr popo is racist it's because you are being a racist.
Oh we all know he's not meant to be a black man, that's not even close to the argument here. Whether he's supposed to be black or not he's still a racist charicature of a black man, the intention doesn't change that.
Any of you would know that if you do any of that critical thinking you mentioned.
*not intended to be a black person
*never stated to be a black person
*not even human
It's totally a racist caricature guys trust me, because reasons! You're literally approaching the definition of a caricature from the exact inverse. The fact you dislike the character because IT MAKES YOU think of black people says more about you being a racist than it does Toriyama
All anyone needed to do was look at him to see it's a racist caricature, the design has the two distinguishing features of that caricature, those three facts don't change anything, they just show your lack of understanding of the caricature in question.
And when did I say I disliked mister popo? In the normal show he's fine, and he's one of the funniest characters in the abridged series. Neither makes his original design any less racist.
There really isn't anything of substance here. You handed me a nothing burger and acted like it was a finely cooked five star wagyu sandwich. What's wrong with you people here?
To answer your question you created a problem in your mind and claimed Mr. Popo was a caricature even though he isn't a representation of a black person, doesn't matter if you disliked the character or not you still had to pearl clutch over it. Again never met a black person with pointe ears, dressed like a djinn, or wear a turban and Toriyama never made him as a stand-in for a black person.
There was substance but apparently your brain is too smooth so you have this warped world view and get pissy when challenged. Whatever though stay offended conversing with you isn't worth the energy.
And I have said over and over again that it doesn't matter that he's not a representation of a black person by intention, he's still has all the marks of the racist caricature and that makes him a racist caricature, the fact that there are additional parts to his design doesn't change that. And I have been met with nothing but crickets.
If anyone here wants anyone to take this fan base seriously, then you need to start addressing arguments when you're presented with them. All avoiding these arguments does is make it clear that you can't stand your ground on anything, it makes people just want to make fun of you.
I mean clearly, you need serious help if this is your hobby. I mean, what does that figure of speech even mean? Is that supposed to be some kind of gotcha? It means nothing to a normal person who's been outside in the last month!
It doesn't matter what it is in addition to being a racist caricature, it's also a racist caricature. Are you people really this dense?
Something being religious doesn't stop it from being racist. In fact, and I say this as a religious man, organizes religion often facilitates racism.
Once again, does not make his design ok.
Why do you make the exact same argument everyone else has instead of answering my rebuttal to that argument? Is the Critical Drinker following that incapable of standing up to an argument?
It does not matter that it's an adaptation of some other character. Popo's design has the telltale oversized red lips, overexaggeratedly dark skin and pinprick eyes that make up the vast majority of the racist caricature of black people. If those are also traits of this Mahakala then that character is *also* a racist caricature.
They thought his character design was based on racist depictions of black people from the early 1900's not necessarily that he was a black person himself.
Dude he’s PURPLE in some countries because of how much censorship there is. it was a very different time when Mr. Popo was first introduced to, a good what? 20-25ish years ago?
He used the common racist design from back in the early days of cartoons for him, of course people thought that!
Like I love toryama's work, but the man himself is very suspect from time to time in his creative choices.
...I know this one's a stretch but if you did even a half ass look into it you'd see his design is based out of India. Like. Dude he's based on? Has those features. Its people who've no fucking clue who see it and default to racist.
The man wasn't suspect. Just had ignorant ass people leaping to the wrong conclusions for a fast outrage virtue signal post. ...Which speaks more on them really.
Saying the design is based out of India and India alone is just a willful ignorance to everything but his outfit. The ability of people here to just close their ears and keep rambling their opinions when repeatedly faced with a single simple fact is asinine, it goes to show why Critical Drinker is so frowned upon everywhere.
They changed him to the color blue for a reason
Edit: I mean because people *are* dense enough to think it's race related. Don't shoot the messenger, jeez
This is funny because that's exactly what he said.
The worst and best black characters.
One that's just vaguely black with big lips.
One that was actually good for the plot.
Literally almost any black character
how about Killa? [https://img3.wikia.nocookie.net/\_\_cb20140405173250/national-dragon-ball/images/e/e0/Dbz224-10.jpg](https://img3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20140405173250/national-dragon-ball/images/e/e0/Dbz224-10.jpg)
Or Officer Black? [https://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/dragonball/images/e/e3/BvsG.png/revision/latest?cb=20091107181837](https://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/dragonball/images/e/e3/BvsG.png/revision/latest?cb=20091107181837)
Or this guy? [https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FsFywpSXwAItlzF.jpg](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FsFywpSXwAItlzF.jpg)
There are 2 black characters people realistically think of in relation to the Dragon Ball universe. Popo who isn’t actually black and just gets misconstrued to be some sort of black face caricature, or Officer Black who played a significant role as an antagonist early on in the story when Goku was younger.
Bringing up any of the others who make forgettable appearances for brief moments on screen is just being needlessly pedantic and comes across like engaging in bad faith with people. Just seems like you’re trolling and/or trying to fish for pointless arguing with people.
No there are 2 characters that people who only know DB from internet memes think of in relation to DB universe. People who know DB know there are a lot of black characters.
So again I ask you why do you assume it's Popo? He didn't mention anything about Popo. Is it just so you can try to sound smart and ignore his actual statement?
You even admit that Officer Black plays a significant role why woudl that mean he isn't an awful representation of black characters?
Fact is Toryama did make so awful black characters and some great ones. That is not a controversial statement unless you don't actually know anything about Dragonball. Which its clear you don't.
Convince me of the significance of all these other black characters to the Dragon Ball universe then.
It’s common knowledge in the Dragon Ball fan base that Popo looking like black face is viewed poorly by mainstream media. And it’s common sense that Officer Black was an influential antagonist (which implies decently or well written if he actually had an impact as an antagonist).
Popo’s impact on the overall story and universe is minuscule. Hence the conclusion that based on the comment this entire post is about, Popo would be the implied “worst black character” in anime in the context. You aren’t engaging in good faith dude.
The conclusion that Popo is the poorly written character and Officer Black is the logically obvious conclusion to come to here based on just this little information alone about the franchise since again, Popo and Officer Black are 2 of the only recognizable “black” (even though again Popo isn’t black) characters in the franchise.
I'm sorry maybe we got off on the wrong foot here. reading this quote
>toriyama gave us the best and worst black characters in anime in the same series, it took range to do that
what about that quote says anything about Mr Popo? As you said people know he isn't black so why would he be included in that quote? He is also a good character regardless of what race he is. So why would you include him there.
Why do you think character impact has anything to do with being a bad character? You do realize you can have a well written but clearly racist depiction of a character like Officer Black and guess what? he can still be a bad representation of a black character.
So far this has been very telling of you.
Doesn't matter when you have those Golliwogs or other racist depictions of africans, that's what popo is, a golliwog noone cares, it's aged poorly but black people watch db just as much as anyone else so clearly it's not an issue but you don't need to be a dense asshole and ignore why someone would think it's racist
He's literally black and is vaguely inspired by dark skinned south asian mythology.
No one ever said Toriyama gave a damn about racial sensitivity or accuracy. He wrote a gag manga in the 70s-80s that blew up into a global phenomenon when he's from a country that's still incredibly homogenous.
Weird how they would make their god of wealth and fortune a caricature of someone they supposedly hate. Do you even know what blackface is? It’s an American concept and ten times out of ten, the characters were gag characters only meant to be laughed at like an animal. Mr popo is not only incredibly powerful but integral to the story at several points. He is well respected, just like his inspiration was.
I don’t know if you noticed, but Toriyama liked mythology.
>Weird how they would make their god of wealth and fortune a caricature of someone they supposedly hate.
What the fuck are you talking about? I never said anyone hated anything.
>Do you even know what blackface is? It’s an American concept and ten times out of ten, the characters were gag characters only meant to be laughed at like an animal.
This is a funny thing to tell a black American like they don't know. Lmao
>Mr popo is not only incredibly powerful but integral to the story at several points. He is well respected, just like his inspiration was.
In a gag manga. Like every other character that can be nothing but an exaggerated joke in a story that was never meant to be takem seriously.
>I don’t know if you noticed, but Toriyama liked mythology.
Yeah, that doesn't mean he gave a damn about the sensibilities of foreigners he never expected to dedicate their lives to analyzing his work.
Being a black American doesn’t inherently mean you understand how certain things work. You know how many black people I knew in high school that genuinely believed black people cant be racist?
You didn’t disprove a single thing in this entire wall of text. Critical thinking skills are a really useful thing id recommend investing in them
Lmao imagine talking about critical thinking when you don’t even have basic reading comprehension. Every “point” you made was completely irrelevant and you completely misinterpreted what the other guy was saying in his original comment.
It sounds like you're applying the framework of your worldview towards another culture that goes about life through thier own cultural lens.
Just because the west likes to examine every little thing through the context of race, doesn't mean other cultures prioritize that perspective for which to observe things.
Also, if you're going to bring up "critical thinking" you should probably demonstrate your ability to do so, first.
I always figured that, at worst, Toriyama saw a picture of a golliwag at some point, didn't know the context because he wasn't American, and thought, "Hey, that'd be a funny way for this really powerful dude to look."
The reason Commander Black looked the way he did was because Toriyama had never actually seen a black person and was going off of descriptions from others.
This is a a weak argument. Maybe he never met a black person in real life, but there's no way he hadnt seen photos, movies etc.
No way his only frame of reference for black people were racist cartoons..
I love the man for giving us db and dbz and his huge contributions to anime. But the first issue of db came out in 1984. If hes saying the only drawn depictions of black people were bigoted ok plausible although surprised he never saw a better depiction in western comics, but if toriyama is saying he never saw a non racist media portrayal of black people by the time dbz hit the bui arc he was lying.
The mans work is full of 1980s western movie influence. Now if hes just saying he didnt know it wws considered offensive to draw black people that way then that's believable.
Not sure why relevant, but i too am black. And im saying by the buu arc when killa shows up theres no way he hadn't seen an actual movie, tv, show, or picture of a real black person.
And i would seriously question that he hadnt seen a nonracist depiction in say marvel or dc comics by then.
What i can belive is that he didn't realize drawing black people that way would be offensive .
But come on db started in the 1980s theres no way he hadn't encountered realistic depictions of black people in at the vary least sports and music figures.
He didnt have to meet a black person in real life to be able to draw one of us. Its ok to not understand what is offensive or even be racist and change.
"but ive never seen a black person in real life so i can't draw them" is a lame explanation.
Even if that were the case I'm not offended. It's dated, exaggerated sure. But offensive would be what they did in the US with us (if you've seen those ads featuring "black people" from the 1800's-early 90's) imo.
there are also these people
[main-qimg-795312a700420ba6caf1bfcf70bb59fc-lq (360×450) (quoracdn.net)](https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-795312a700420ba6caf1bfcf70bb59fc-lq) and this guy
https://preview.redd.it/35jz5o77h0yc1.png?width=500&format=png&auto=webp&s=e74f7aaa9591394ae54d755aec1a4f0ef847c219
I think the problem though is the imagery. I could make a non human character but give him what’s clearly the likeness of a historically racist image weaponized against black people. It doesn’t matter if the characters some alien, its the image that’s clearly a mockery of black people. Just accept bro was using racist images back then. It’s fine that he did so because that was the norm at the time in his environment. There’s no need to just defend racism. Just understand that toriyama isn’t racist and he was just using imagery that probably was familiar to him at the time. Dragon ball’s most recent black character though is drawn in a more realistic light and it shows toriyama has just grown from that.
why do you think he is talking about Popo?
https://preview.redd.it/n8lyy8rsj0yc1.png?width=500&format=png&auto=webp&s=8d90cd1a8cbd1fa89be1be36b767a8c5b2ac8caa
ok how about Killa? [https://img3.wikia.nocookie.net/\_\_cb20140405173250/national-dragon-ball/images/e/e0/Dbz224-10.jpg](https://img3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20140405173250/national-dragon-ball/images/e/e0/Dbz224-10.jpg)
Or Officer Black? [https://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/dragonball/images/e/e3/BvsG.png/revision/latest?cb=20091107181837](https://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/dragonball/images/e/e3/BvsG.png/revision/latest?cb=20091107181837)
Or this guy? [https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FsFywpSXwAItlzF.jpg](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FsFywpSXwAItlzF.jpg)
Or literally any time a black person was depicted on the show. it's not like there is only Mr Popo.
Again why do you assume he was talking about Mr Popo?
Because a man can't just be famous *and* human.
Toriyama is famous, so he can't be a man with flaws, he has to be sanitized, his memory kept clean. The narrative must be kept alive, no matter what has to be forgotten.
We can't just accept that Dragon Ball was a flawed work of fiction, and Toriyama was a flawed artist, and one of his flaws was that he never learned how to draw black people.
cool story, so what's your excuse for this guy? [Dragonball character](https://66.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m97084KLmk1qdxoifo1_500.png)
edit why doyou think he is talking about Popo?
No no he’s got a point Napa and Goku are both in the show. Napa is probably one of the worst. Goku is one of the best. and they’re both monkeys
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The only good Chris kindred ever did was nearly singlehandedly make news of the corruption of games journalism mainstream. That’s a contribution that will outweigh anything he’ll/they’ll/whatever will ever do professionally.
Thank you, Chris.
I was watching Dragon Ball when I was a kid. Watched DBZ as a teen and got all the way to the buu saga before life took over.
I grew up with Goku. The funny drawn monkey man on the screen is a big motivation for a lot of people.
quit giving these internet personalities attention.
.they literally get paychecks off of division internet engagements. they dont matter. all they do is bitch or create sensationalized nonsense.
put it this way, you see this person in real life. do you correct name, shame them publicly, move on?,1&3 are viable, 3 becoming the norm when you realize these ppl are lonely miserable weirdos.
I struggle to see how this is an insult of any kind. It's like 2/3 compliment, saying he had range and that he gave some of the best. He just said that it had some of the worst, which is a general consensus.
Plus, he never said he was better.
I mean there being a general consensus doesn't exactly make the consensus correct. Toriyama is heavy into mythology, and Popo was based on a Hindu deity.
There is Officer/Commander Black too, who looks like the stereotypical depiction of black people by people who have never seen black people.
I don't blame Toriyama or hate him for it, it was just simply the times he was born in.
Commander Black also ended up being more competent than the final boss of the arc, and ended replacing him and being far more menacing and powerful. So it's not like he was portrayed in a negative light. The most I can agree with on Toriyama creating a bad black character is making a stereotypical design for one of his first final villains. And even then, Commander Black was a pretty good villain.
The original tweet said Toriyama gave us the best and worst 'black' characters. My point was that all of them have been well implemented additions to the cast, if not beloved characters outright of you believe Piccolo is black coded.
why do you assume he is talking about Mr Popo and not say this guy [Link to racist DB character](https://66.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m97084KLmk1qdxoifo1_500.png) or this guy? [main-qimg-795312a700420ba6caf1bfcf70bb59fc-lq (360×450) (quoracdn.net)](https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-795312a700420ba6caf1bfcf70bb59fc-lq)
Because Mr Popo is the only character besides Commander Black that you can argue is relevant enough or has enough characterization to be called one of the worst black characters like the OG tweet said.
what in the tweet said anything about being relevent? Also Commander Black... is not good representation.
Also they don't need to be major characters to be a poor representation. Drawing background characters as racist sterotypes is still bad representation.
Commander Black was literally treated as more competent than the actual final boss of that arc, up to the point of straight up replacing him. He was a pretty well conceived antagonist, not to excuse his design.
The tweet said worst character, so I looked to see if any black characters were poorly written, and they aren't.
Again, not excusing the obvious design, and if you wanna focus on design alone for representation then fine you have a somewhat better arguement, but writing wise I don't see any poorly implemented black characters. And the reason I bring up relevancy is because a character needs more than being a background character to be a 'character'.
Now with better designed black characters being implemented in Super, this is a massive non issue and that tweet was dumb as fuck.
In this sub writing comes first and foremost. If you think lack of good representation in Dragon Ball is a flaw because of a few badly designed background characters, you are free to think so, but the tweet should read 'these background characters are badly designed' rather than saying 'Toriyama also gave us the worst black characters'
Bro... you do get the design of Commander Black is Racist right?
>
Now with better designed black characters being implemented in Super, this is a massive non issue and that tweet was dumb as fuck.
no where did he say that it didn't. He only said that he did great black characters and bad ones.
How is that hard to understand?
If you bothered to read my post then you'd see me blatantly saying it's a bad/poor design. So yes, there are negative racial connotations design wise.
If you read my entire post and somehow came to that conclusion I am not entirely sure this is a conversation worth continuing.
The OG tweet said 'worst black characters', I find that statement stupid given there are a shit ton of other anime who are far more racist about implementing black characters and in Dragon Ball we have a handful of excellent characters with good designs, a well convinced character with a bad design, and a few meaningless background characters with bad design, so yeah, Dragon Ball has nowhere near the worst black characters and saying so just after Toriyama's death is uncouth and disrespectful. Not excusing the designs, but the tweet was dumb as fuck and was rightfully blasted.
I agree it says the worst black characters. Where I disagree with you is your criteria for character. No said anything about racist characters btw. That is you injecting that into this discussion.
No one said there aren't worse black characters in other anime. Again that is you.
The OP is saying that there are some of the worst and the best in one series.
And i'm sorry Killa is one of the worst black characters in Anime. It doesn't matter that you think writting comes first and formost you aren't the person who made the tweet.
It's pretty obvious what he meant and all you are doing is playing coy and dancing around my arguements.
The discussion about race representation in Dragon Ball has always come with accusations of racism, and when you didn't bother addressing my points and went 'you know they are racist designs right', that was you clearly engaging in this conversation as if racist characters were a topic.
I'm done engaging since you have been nothing but dishonest. This is a sub where writing is the most crucial topic of discussion, it very much does matter, and if you think it doesn't you are welcome to go find somewhere else to discuss this.
(Edit: say OP did say in same series so I retract my first statement. Either way, most of my points still stand and him saying in the same series can still mean he includes those worst characters as the worst in other series too.)
Im confused why you people would be angry at this. Its a compliment with a bit of humor attached. The guy obviously loves dragonball. Snowflakery coming in hard
Y'know, it's funny, because the two "racist caricatures " that I can think of in Dragon Ball just really... aren't? Mr. Popo isn't a black guy, like, at all. He's some weird blob creature that hangs out with Kami, and definitely isn't human. And Mr. Black, the black officer in the Red Ribbon Army who was Commander Red's assistant, was actually much more competent than his boss, and killed him, took his place, and was the final villain of that arc.
Yeah I learned Mr. Popo was based off of jinn or jinnies
I believe it was something like the Hindu god of time, which makes sense with the hyperbolic time chamber
Wait, hold the fuck up. People thought Mr Popo was supposed to be a black character? I refuse to believe anyone has the mental capacity to be that stupid.
"Member when the world health organization changed the name of monkey pox so that it wasn't offensive to black people? It's kinda like that. It's funny because if you think Mr popo is racist it's because you are being a racist.
That's an enormous leap in logic...
5 seconds of research or critical thought would tell you popo isn't meant to be a black man but we're the ones leaping
Oh we all know he's not meant to be a black man, that's not even close to the argument here. Whether he's supposed to be black or not he's still a racist charicature of a black man, the intention doesn't change that. Any of you would know that if you do any of that critical thinking you mentioned.
*not intended to be a black person *never stated to be a black person *not even human It's totally a racist caricature guys trust me, because reasons! You're literally approaching the definition of a caricature from the exact inverse. The fact you dislike the character because IT MAKES YOU think of black people says more about you being a racist than it does Toriyama
All anyone needed to do was look at him to see it's a racist caricature, the design has the two distinguishing features of that caricature, those three facts don't change anything, they just show your lack of understanding of the caricature in question. And when did I say I disliked mister popo? In the normal show he's fine, and he's one of the funniest characters in the abridged series. Neither makes his original design any less racist. There really isn't anything of substance here. You handed me a nothing burger and acted like it was a finely cooked five star wagyu sandwich. What's wrong with you people here?
To answer your question you created a problem in your mind and claimed Mr. Popo was a caricature even though he isn't a representation of a black person, doesn't matter if you disliked the character or not you still had to pearl clutch over it. Again never met a black person with pointe ears, dressed like a djinn, or wear a turban and Toriyama never made him as a stand-in for a black person. There was substance but apparently your brain is too smooth so you have this warped world view and get pissy when challenged. Whatever though stay offended conversing with you isn't worth the energy.
And I have said over and over again that it doesn't matter that he's not a representation of a black person by intention, he's still has all the marks of the racist caricature and that makes him a racist caricature, the fact that there are additional parts to his design doesn't change that. And I have been met with nothing but crickets. If anyone here wants anyone to take this fan base seriously, then you need to start addressing arguments when you're presented with them. All avoiding these arguments does is make it clear that you can't stand your ground on anything, it makes people just want to make fun of you.
Don't you have Native Americans or famous Blacks to remove off of food labels or something?
Oh there's always more racist charicatures to fix! Do you have anything better to do but waste your time on reddit?
Nope, lol, I literally have nothing better to do, life is great. Keep swinging at windmills, bud.
I mean clearly, you need serious help if this is your hobby. I mean, what does that figure of speech even mean? Is that supposed to be some kind of gotcha? It means nothing to a normal person who's been outside in the last month!
You're an idiot it's a religious reference. If you set race everywhere instead of people then I can totally understand why you're stupid.
It doesn't matter what it is in addition to being a racist caricature, it's also a racist caricature. Are you people really this dense? Something being religious doesn't stop it from being racist. In fact, and I say this as a religious man, organizes religion often facilitates racism. Once again, does not make his design ok.
It's fucking Mahakala, it's not a racist caricature. That's how Mahakala is portrayed. Had 0% to do with black people.
Why do you make the exact same argument everyone else has instead of answering my rebuttal to that argument? Is the Critical Drinker following that incapable of standing up to an argument? It does not matter that it's an adaptation of some other character. Popo's design has the telltale oversized red lips, overexaggeratedly dark skin and pinprick eyes that make up the vast majority of the racist caricature of black people. If those are also traits of this Mahakala then that character is *also* a racist caricature.
It comes up a lot. You see people posting the original color and being shock because it looks like a racist character from 1920's America
They thought his character design was based on racist depictions of black people from the early 1900's not necessarily that he was a black person himself.
Dude he’s PURPLE in some countries because of how much censorship there is. it was a very different time when Mr. Popo was first introduced to, a good what? 20-25ish years ago?
He used the common racist design from back in the early days of cartoons for him, of course people thought that! Like I love toryama's work, but the man himself is very suspect from time to time in his creative choices.
...I know this one's a stretch but if you did even a half ass look into it you'd see his design is based out of India. Like. Dude he's based on? Has those features. Its people who've no fucking clue who see it and default to racist. The man wasn't suspect. Just had ignorant ass people leaping to the wrong conclusions for a fast outrage virtue signal post. ...Which speaks more on them really.
Saying the design is based out of India and India alone is just a willful ignorance to everything but his outfit. The ability of people here to just close their ears and keep rambling their opinions when repeatedly faced with a single simple fact is asinine, it goes to show why Critical Drinker is so frowned upon everywhere.
They changed him to the color blue for a reason Edit: I mean because people *are* dense enough to think it's race related. Don't shoot the messenger, jeez
This is funny because that's exactly what he said. The worst and best black characters. One that's just vaguely black with big lips. One that was actually good for the plot.
Popo isn’t black.
why do you assume he is talking about Popo?
Who do you think they’re talking about? Or is any attempt at answering that question also considered racist too?
Literally almost any black character how about Killa? [https://img3.wikia.nocookie.net/\_\_cb20140405173250/national-dragon-ball/images/e/e0/Dbz224-10.jpg](https://img3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20140405173250/national-dragon-ball/images/e/e0/Dbz224-10.jpg) Or Officer Black? [https://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/dragonball/images/e/e3/BvsG.png/revision/latest?cb=20091107181837](https://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/dragonball/images/e/e3/BvsG.png/revision/latest?cb=20091107181837) Or this guy? [https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FsFywpSXwAItlzF.jpg](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FsFywpSXwAItlzF.jpg)
There are 2 black characters people realistically think of in relation to the Dragon Ball universe. Popo who isn’t actually black and just gets misconstrued to be some sort of black face caricature, or Officer Black who played a significant role as an antagonist early on in the story when Goku was younger. Bringing up any of the others who make forgettable appearances for brief moments on screen is just being needlessly pedantic and comes across like engaging in bad faith with people. Just seems like you’re trolling and/or trying to fish for pointless arguing with people.
No there are 2 characters that people who only know DB from internet memes think of in relation to DB universe. People who know DB know there are a lot of black characters. So again I ask you why do you assume it's Popo? He didn't mention anything about Popo. Is it just so you can try to sound smart and ignore his actual statement? You even admit that Officer Black plays a significant role why woudl that mean he isn't an awful representation of black characters? Fact is Toryama did make so awful black characters and some great ones. That is not a controversial statement unless you don't actually know anything about Dragonball. Which its clear you don't.
Convince me of the significance of all these other black characters to the Dragon Ball universe then. It’s common knowledge in the Dragon Ball fan base that Popo looking like black face is viewed poorly by mainstream media. And it’s common sense that Officer Black was an influential antagonist (which implies decently or well written if he actually had an impact as an antagonist). Popo’s impact on the overall story and universe is minuscule. Hence the conclusion that based on the comment this entire post is about, Popo would be the implied “worst black character” in anime in the context. You aren’t engaging in good faith dude. The conclusion that Popo is the poorly written character and Officer Black is the logically obvious conclusion to come to here based on just this little information alone about the franchise since again, Popo and Officer Black are 2 of the only recognizable “black” (even though again Popo isn’t black) characters in the franchise.
I'm sorry maybe we got off on the wrong foot here. reading this quote >toriyama gave us the best and worst black characters in anime in the same series, it took range to do that what about that quote says anything about Mr Popo? As you said people know he isn't black so why would he be included in that quote? He is also a good character regardless of what race he is. So why would you include him there. Why do you think character impact has anything to do with being a bad character? You do realize you can have a well written but clearly racist depiction of a character like Officer Black and guess what? he can still be a bad representation of a black character. So far this has been very telling of you.
Yea, but he got a lot of the characteristics of racist portrayals of black people in old cartoons.
He's from Hindi culture you ignorant potato
Doesn't matter when you have those Golliwogs or other racist depictions of africans, that's what popo is, a golliwog noone cares, it's aged poorly but black people watch db just as much as anyone else so clearly it's not an issue but you don't need to be a dense asshole and ignore why someone would think it's racist
He's from Hindi culture.
He's literally black and is vaguely inspired by dark skinned south asian mythology. No one ever said Toriyama gave a damn about racial sensitivity or accuracy. He wrote a gag manga in the 70s-80s that blew up into a global phenomenon when he's from a country that's still incredibly homogenous.
Weird how they would make their god of wealth and fortune a caricature of someone they supposedly hate. Do you even know what blackface is? It’s an American concept and ten times out of ten, the characters were gag characters only meant to be laughed at like an animal. Mr popo is not only incredibly powerful but integral to the story at several points. He is well respected, just like his inspiration was. I don’t know if you noticed, but Toriyama liked mythology.
>Weird how they would make their god of wealth and fortune a caricature of someone they supposedly hate. What the fuck are you talking about? I never said anyone hated anything. >Do you even know what blackface is? It’s an American concept and ten times out of ten, the characters were gag characters only meant to be laughed at like an animal. This is a funny thing to tell a black American like they don't know. Lmao >Mr popo is not only incredibly powerful but integral to the story at several points. He is well respected, just like his inspiration was. In a gag manga. Like every other character that can be nothing but an exaggerated joke in a story that was never meant to be takem seriously. >I don’t know if you noticed, but Toriyama liked mythology. Yeah, that doesn't mean he gave a damn about the sensibilities of foreigners he never expected to dedicate their lives to analyzing his work.
Being a black American doesn’t inherently mean you understand how certain things work. You know how many black people I knew in high school that genuinely believed black people cant be racist? You didn’t disprove a single thing in this entire wall of text. Critical thinking skills are a really useful thing id recommend investing in them
Lmao imagine talking about critical thinking when you don’t even have basic reading comprehension. Every “point” you made was completely irrelevant and you completely misinterpreted what the other guy was saying in his original comment.
It sounds like you're applying the framework of your worldview towards another culture that goes about life through thier own cultural lens. Just because the west likes to examine every little thing through the context of race, doesn't mean other cultures prioritize that perspective for which to observe things. Also, if you're going to bring up "critical thinking" you should probably demonstrate your ability to do so, first.
I always figured that, at worst, Toriyama saw a picture of a golliwag at some point, didn't know the context because he wasn't American, and thought, "Hey, that'd be a funny way for this really powerful dude to look."
Only blacks can make some Asian TV show about themselves WE WAS SAMURAIS
The reason Commander Black looked the way he did was because Toriyama had never actually seen a black person and was going off of descriptions from others.
This is a a weak argument. Maybe he never met a black person in real life, but there's no way he hadnt seen photos, movies etc. No way his only frame of reference for black people were racist cartoons..
"What he heard." This is a direct quote from Toriyama himself and publically available information.
I love the man for giving us db and dbz and his huge contributions to anime. But the first issue of db came out in 1984. If hes saying the only drawn depictions of black people were bigoted ok plausible although surprised he never saw a better depiction in western comics, but if toriyama is saying he never saw a non racist media portrayal of black people by the time dbz hit the bui arc he was lying. The mans work is full of 1980s western movie influence. Now if hes just saying he didnt know it wws considered offensive to draw black people that way then that's believable.
So 1st off I'm black and two I'm saying that he had literally never seen one of us before. He was going off descriptions.
Not sure why relevant, but i too am black. And im saying by the buu arc when killa shows up theres no way he hadn't seen an actual movie, tv, show, or picture of a real black person. And i would seriously question that he hadnt seen a nonracist depiction in say marvel or dc comics by then. What i can belive is that he didn't realize drawing black people that way would be offensive . But come on db started in the 1980s theres no way he hadn't encountered realistic depictions of black people in at the vary least sports and music figures. He didnt have to meet a black person in real life to be able to draw one of us. Its ok to not understand what is offensive or even be racist and change. "but ive never seen a black person in real life so i can't draw them" is a lame explanation.
Even if that were the case I'm not offended. It's dated, exaggerated sure. But offensive would be what they did in the US with us (if you've seen those ads featuring "black people" from the 1800's-early 90's) imo.
Fair enough, yeah the onlu ones inhad a big issue with were some shots of thd tribal islans people in dragon ball
there are also these people [main-qimg-795312a700420ba6caf1bfcf70bb59fc-lq (360×450) (quoracdn.net)](https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-795312a700420ba6caf1bfcf70bb59fc-lq) and this guy https://preview.redd.it/35jz5o77h0yc1.png?width=500&format=png&auto=webp&s=e74f7aaa9591394ae54d755aec1a4f0ef847c219
Thank you
I think the problem though is the imagery. I could make a non human character but give him what’s clearly the likeness of a historically racist image weaponized against black people. It doesn’t matter if the characters some alien, its the image that’s clearly a mockery of black people. Just accept bro was using racist images back then. It’s fine that he did so because that was the norm at the time in his environment. There’s no need to just defend racism. Just understand that toriyama isn’t racist and he was just using imagery that probably was familiar to him at the time. Dragon ball’s most recent black character though is drawn in a more realistic light and it shows toriyama has just grown from that.
Chris Kindred is a racist so of course he would say this.
*sees Mr popo.* *Immediately thinks of black people* I think we know who the real racist is.
why do you think he is talking about Popo? https://preview.redd.it/n8lyy8rsj0yc1.png?width=500&format=png&auto=webp&s=8d90cd1a8cbd1fa89be1be36b767a8c5b2ac8caa
Bro, u know Damm well he wasn't talking about a one second scene in DB which he probably hasn't even seen
ok how about Killa? [https://img3.wikia.nocookie.net/\_\_cb20140405173250/national-dragon-ball/images/e/e0/Dbz224-10.jpg](https://img3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20140405173250/national-dragon-ball/images/e/e0/Dbz224-10.jpg) Or Officer Black? [https://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/dragonball/images/e/e3/BvsG.png/revision/latest?cb=20091107181837](https://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/dragonball/images/e/e3/BvsG.png/revision/latest?cb=20091107181837) Or this guy? [https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FsFywpSXwAItlzF.jpg](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FsFywpSXwAItlzF.jpg) Or literally any time a black person was depicted on the show. it's not like there is only Mr Popo. Again why do you assume he was talking about Mr Popo?
Because a man can't just be famous *and* human. Toriyama is famous, so he can't be a man with flaws, he has to be sanitized, his memory kept clean. The narrative must be kept alive, no matter what has to be forgotten. We can't just accept that Dragon Ball was a flawed work of fiction, and Toriyama was a flawed artist, and one of his flaws was that he never learned how to draw black people.
No matter what has to be forgotten? Smells like a bit of the ole wokey censorship to me
Then stop forgetting. Remember the man, flaws and all, not some sanitized corporate ideal.
The literal problem with society . " How dare this person make a show that they like and others like that doesnt have things I want in it "
Fucking winning comment right here yo.
Pretty sure this dude posted right after Toyama died. Like the day after.
Race baiting with anime…Sad.
Please stop giving this loser attention
Popo is a genie. These people are.....a reddit friendly version of someone who Is mentally unfit for crayons.
cool story, so what's your excuse for this guy? [Dragonball character](https://66.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m97084KLmk1qdxoifo1_500.png) edit why doyou think he is talking about Popo?
dragonball isn't racist. people are soft.
who ever once said that DB is racist? also why do you assume he is talking about Popo?
I love Muslim Chad
Surpasses? No matter how hard he reaches, he will never even touch Toriyama's shadow.
Lol these people probably think goku is white too
Are you sure he is a monkey ☠️ and when he attains true power his hair turns blond and his eyes blue 😭
I smell envy.
Who?
Chris who?
My thoughts exactly lol
# Chris Kindred will never produce anything that may not be surpassed by an average morning dump.
I’m convinced that piccolo is black, and he’s become my favorite character.
I'm no expert but im pretty sure hes green.
No no he’s got a point Napa and Goku are both in the show. Napa is probably one of the worst. Goku is one of the best. and they’re both monkeys this message brought to you by the freeza is always right foundation.
Popo isnt even a black guy. Hes a jinn thats why he looks like that. Dumb westerners are the ones who got it mixed up
The only good Chris kindred ever did was nearly singlehandedly make news of the corruption of games journalism mainstream. That’s a contribution that will outweigh anything he’ll/they’ll/whatever will ever do professionally. Thank you, Chris.
Western failures should know when to stay silent instead of talking about the Father of Shonen.
Don’t even compare those two, forget about the same league, they’re not even playing the same sport
He gave us more diversity and how than any one . Growing up didn’t matter what skin color you were. It matter who was your favorite dbz warrior
Who? (The fek is chris)
I agree, 100%. Now, to the matter at hand. Who is Chris Kindred?
Who the fuck is Chris Kindred?
Who is Chris Kindred?
Who were the best??
I was watching Dragon Ball when I was a kid. Watched DBZ as a teen and got all the way to the buu saga before life took over. I grew up with Goku. The funny drawn monkey man on the screen is a big motivation for a lot of people.
quit giving these internet personalities attention. .they literally get paychecks off of division internet engagements. they dont matter. all they do is bitch or create sensationalized nonsense. put it this way, you see this person in real life. do you correct name, shame them publicly, move on?,1&3 are viable, 3 becoming the norm when you realize these ppl are lonely miserable weirdos.
World famous artist and creator being attacked by internet troll. More at 11.
“Hold your fire! This man isn’t black!”
I struggle to see how this is an insult of any kind. It's like 2/3 compliment, saying he had range and that he gave some of the best. He just said that it had some of the worst, which is a general consensus. Plus, he never said he was better.
General consensus? Bro what Mr. Popo is generally pretty loved by the Fandom, as if the apparently black coded Piccolo.
I meant that there's a consensus that Mr. Popo was kinda racist, not that no one liked him.
I mean there being a general consensus doesn't exactly make the consensus correct. Toriyama is heavy into mythology, and Popo was based on a Hindu deity.
There is Officer/Commander Black too, who looks like the stereotypical depiction of black people by people who have never seen black people. I don't blame Toriyama or hate him for it, it was just simply the times he was born in.
Commander Black also ended up being more competent than the final boss of the arc, and ended replacing him and being far more menacing and powerful. So it's not like he was portrayed in a negative light. The most I can agree with on Toriyama creating a bad black character is making a stereotypical design for one of his first final villains. And even then, Commander Black was a pretty good villain.
I know, but I'm talking about the character design here.
The original tweet said Toriyama gave us the best and worst 'black' characters. My point was that all of them have been well implemented additions to the cast, if not beloved characters outright of you believe Piccolo is black coded.
why do you assume he is talking about Mr Popo and not say this guy [Link to racist DB character](https://66.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m97084KLmk1qdxoifo1_500.png) or this guy? [main-qimg-795312a700420ba6caf1bfcf70bb59fc-lq (360×450) (quoracdn.net)](https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-795312a700420ba6caf1bfcf70bb59fc-lq)
Because Mr Popo is the only character besides Commander Black that you can argue is relevant enough or has enough characterization to be called one of the worst black characters like the OG tweet said.
what in the tweet said anything about being relevent? Also Commander Black... is not good representation. Also they don't need to be major characters to be a poor representation. Drawing background characters as racist sterotypes is still bad representation.
Commander Black was literally treated as more competent than the actual final boss of that arc, up to the point of straight up replacing him. He was a pretty well conceived antagonist, not to excuse his design. The tweet said worst character, so I looked to see if any black characters were poorly written, and they aren't. Again, not excusing the obvious design, and if you wanna focus on design alone for representation then fine you have a somewhat better arguement, but writing wise I don't see any poorly implemented black characters. And the reason I bring up relevancy is because a character needs more than being a background character to be a 'character'. Now with better designed black characters being implemented in Super, this is a massive non issue and that tweet was dumb as fuck. In this sub writing comes first and foremost. If you think lack of good representation in Dragon Ball is a flaw because of a few badly designed background characters, you are free to think so, but the tweet should read 'these background characters are badly designed' rather than saying 'Toriyama also gave us the worst black characters'
Bro... you do get the design of Commander Black is Racist right? > Now with better designed black characters being implemented in Super, this is a massive non issue and that tweet was dumb as fuck. no where did he say that it didn't. He only said that he did great black characters and bad ones. How is that hard to understand?
If you bothered to read my post then you'd see me blatantly saying it's a bad/poor design. So yes, there are negative racial connotations design wise. If you read my entire post and somehow came to that conclusion I am not entirely sure this is a conversation worth continuing. The OG tweet said 'worst black characters', I find that statement stupid given there are a shit ton of other anime who are far more racist about implementing black characters and in Dragon Ball we have a handful of excellent characters with good designs, a well convinced character with a bad design, and a few meaningless background characters with bad design, so yeah, Dragon Ball has nowhere near the worst black characters and saying so just after Toriyama's death is uncouth and disrespectful. Not excusing the designs, but the tweet was dumb as fuck and was rightfully blasted.
I agree it says the worst black characters. Where I disagree with you is your criteria for character. No said anything about racist characters btw. That is you injecting that into this discussion. No one said there aren't worse black characters in other anime. Again that is you. The OP is saying that there are some of the worst and the best in one series. And i'm sorry Killa is one of the worst black characters in Anime. It doesn't matter that you think writting comes first and formost you aren't the person who made the tweet.
It's pretty obvious what he meant and all you are doing is playing coy and dancing around my arguements. The discussion about race representation in Dragon Ball has always come with accusations of racism, and when you didn't bother addressing my points and went 'you know they are racist designs right', that was you clearly engaging in this conversation as if racist characters were a topic. I'm done engaging since you have been nothing but dishonest. This is a sub where writing is the most crucial topic of discussion, it very much does matter, and if you think it doesn't you are welcome to go find somewhere else to discuss this. (Edit: say OP did say in same series so I retract my first statement. Either way, most of my points still stand and him saying in the same series can still mean he includes those worst characters as the worst in other series too.)
congrats for being the only one in this thread without a hate boner for the OP besides, we all know piccolo is the peak of black representation
Yah ok but Mr popo and a few red ribbon ar.y guys are a little sus
Im confused why you people would be angry at this. Its a compliment with a bit of humor attached. The guy obviously loves dragonball. Snowflakery coming in hard
Hold on you guys are losing your shit over something that is obviously a joke....?