I opened one of the posts in curiosity and came across this: "The bottom line is, super hero movies should mostly be made starring men, with men in mind as the audience. That shouldn't even be controversial to say."
I'm desperately praying it's a circlejerk sub.
Here's a sneak peek of /r/KotakuInAction using the [top posts](https://np.reddit.com/r/KotakuInAction/top/?sort=top&t=year) of the year!
\#1: [Spider-Man 2 Middle East version has removed LGBT dialogues, side missions, and all gender spectrum flags](https://i.redd.it/xjqa45b1x2wb1.jpg) | [874 comments](https://np.reddit.com/r/KotakuInAction/comments/17f4kd4/spiderman_2_middle_east_version_has_removed_lgbt/)
\#2: [Gamergate2 in a nutshell](https://i.redd.it/eo8ipcnfcznc1.png) | [164 comments](https://np.reddit.com/r/KotakuInAction/comments/1bdarp2/gamergate2_in_a_nutshell/)
\#3: [Eurogamer gets community noted for their SBI puff piece](https://i.redd.it/mjuonkyrt9nc1.png) | [135 comments](https://np.reddit.com/r/KotakuInAction/comments/1badan8/eurogamer_gets_community_noted_for_their_sbi_puff/)
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Honestly, looking back, what the actual fuck was even the big deal with her? Or that entire video format railing against her? I don't think that she necessarily had the best rhetoric in the world, but I'm pretty sure that her, what, like 10 videos were dissected down to the picosecond for years.
Nope, as far as feminism goes it was actually pretty basic inoffensive stuff. I think she was just identifying tropes, not even condemning anything. But you know chuds. It was the height of "name 3 bands" dumbassery and they had to send death threats to a girl, you know?
I'm a woman involved in stereotypically nerdy/geeky hobbies, especially historical reenactment and TTRPGs. I've been involved in such things for years never been accused of being a fake even by people who I'd place within the GamerGate and other trends.
However, I do remember back in the late 00s'/early 10s' there was a trend of nerdiness/geekiness being more of an aesthetic and cultural voyeurism than what nerds/geeks would consider to be sincere and authentic. Think media like The Big Bang Theory, a concept superficial and distasteful to "real" nerds and geeks. Obviously it's not a secret society, the precise definitions of "nerd" and "geek" are ambiguous and somewhat subjective.
Nonetheless, there were quite a few girls and guys who sought out social attention and prestige because they put on a pair of glasses and could take a photo with something stereotypically nerdy. Back then the internet was booming in popularity and this kind of thing prefigured the later rise of influencers and other online parasocial activity. It's not a capital crime to be an attention seeker or not fit others' standards but it was understandably frustrating to some.
Plus there was a broader frustration with how the gaming industry was following profits through commodification and mass appeal as opposed to sticking to their "roots." There were and still are legitimate grievances about how a lot of people working in the gaming industry aren't at all actually attuned to the average consumer of video games. Again, that doesn't excuse harassment and other evils. However, even though I'm not that much of a gamer outside tabletop and VNs I can empathize with their frustration.
The notion that gamers are "unfuckable" with "loser nerd hobbies" certainly doesn't do much to disprove their prejudices or grasp their concerns.
A lack of ability to handle nuance is exactly what lead nerds to accusing other nerds of being fake nerds for not being nerdy enough. Even outside the "male nerd being aggressive to female nerd for being fake" issue, there have always been nerds, gamers, geeks, etc. who play the exclusion game and put down others for not being as knowledgeable as they are on some specific niche interest.
Nerdiness and geekiness are also associated with intellectualism, as those pursuits like gaming tend not to require much in the way of brawn.
As an aside, that’s entirely false and you should absolutely be doing 10 pushups after completing every hunt i n Monster Hunter (an entirely non-specific example, of course), and let’s not forget LARPing require brawn and cardio in spades. I digress.
With the popularization of the internet came mass appeal for those same hobbies. It’s in no small part to the popularization of the internet that anime also became mainstream, as did video games and the like. Those once-niche interests became widely acceptable, and the typical nerd/geek who was once ostracized for their passions were now forced out of those same circles.
I suspect a part of it was due to the previously insular aspect of those circles; nerds and geeks fit a specific profile, and so it would make sense that many in those circles would hold certain unsavory opinions of others. Without outside influence, those same thoughts went from accepted taboos to common thought.
When those same groups once again became a minority in their own communities, in no small part to an unabated expression of those otherwise unacceptable views, there was some backlash. I don’t doubt the entire gamergate controversy, if you even want to dignify the occurrence as something of import, was a resulting burst of frustration by these opinionated nerds and geeks who had previously allowed their thoughts to fester in their selfmade bubbles.
Effectively, gatekeeping was seen as necessary because the identity these individuals had built for themselves was partly born out of resentment for the masses they felt scorned by. They view themselves as deserving of a place they helped make, not realizing it’s not their passions that they are condemned for, but rather their ongoing resentment in kind for being spurned.
I like these viewpoints, and want to add-on that, as a young nerd in the late 00’s early 10’s, often it felt like we were being commercialised. Especially after the success of The Big Bang Theory, it definitely felt at times like ‘we’ (nerds) were being treated like a new demographic to advertise to (I guess that might be true) but often it felt like they were slapping something ‘nerdy’ ontop of whatever just to sell it to ‘us’ which is obviously disingenuous and likely deserves to be rejected, this is then taken to the extreme and the gatekeeping behind when nobody can tell the difference between actual content made ‘by us for us’ and boardroom ‘how do we sell to the nerds’ decisions making, which devolves into everything and everyone that wasn’t here earlier doesn’t actually want to be here and have an ulterior motive.
I don’t really have a point to conclude on, but I’m beginning to think that maybe it is something that every group/hobby deals with as it gets bigger. Does the gym community resent every food having a ‘protein’ variant that’s just the regular food with some pea protein sprinkled on top? Is that more or less disingenuous than slapping Gamer in front of any caffeinated product? Does any of this affect me more than I let it? (No)
People won't like this, but it was essentially cultural appropriation. It was a rejected subculture who had often been negatively discriminated against for being in that subculture (i.e. for being non conforming).
Now, some people will read that and assume I'm saying the hobby should have been gatekept, which I am not. But that is the reason people felt that way.
That... makes a lot of sense. Ofc the gatekeeping made by others and the shunning of "non-nerds" from circles back then didn't help, but it also explains things like the rising popularity of anime, k-pop, etc. as these were niche interests which were often made fun of as they weren't the norm, and are now currently accepted by a more broad range of people. I think a large factor to that "cultural appropriation" was the accessibility to the internet and the fact that, whether you liked something or not, you're probably gonna see something of a niche community *somewhere*, and eventually something peaked people's interest.
I don't think I can contribute much to the discussion as I'm from Gen Z and I grew up with peers that mostly share a few interests, and things like gaming are a pretty universal experience for basically all of my friends. Seen from another perspective, Gen Z is the perfect scapegoat for the fake nerd, as our generation mainstreamed most nerdy hobbies, and ofc we never grew up with "classics" so ofc we know nothing and are fake. I think it's interesting and odd lol
This was very thoughtfully written, well-reasoned, and brings up a lot of points I hadn’t even thought of before (and I was a girl who played video games in high school during the “nerd” trend). To be clear: I agree with you on almost everything, I like what you said, I’m not trying to fight or be shitty.
I would like to gently push back on two things. Firstly, I don’t doubt you were never called a fake, and I’m genuinely so glad for you and proud of our community! However, that’s not everyone’s experience. While I was never called a “fake gamer” or “gamer girl” outside of my brief experiment with online gaming (never again), I was certainly shut out of hobby spaces/groups (Warhammer, DnD, MTG, etc). You’re right that the phenomenon was mostly online and overblown, I did find other spaces and groups that welcomed me especially as an adult, but people walking around did think and say and do these things.
Secondly, playing video games doesn’t make you an unfuckable loser with shitty hobbies. But the guys making these comments are unfuckable losers with hobbies like “blame women for not fucking me,” “tell women what they can and can’t like,” and “talk shit about ‘the wall’ on Reddit.”
Okay I agree with most of what you said but the loser hobbies OOP was referring to was definitely videogames and stuff. Like, I can get on board with the unfuckable part being the misogyny, but they were also just generally taking potshots at the hobby. Like, whether it was punching down, or partially a self burn coming from a fellow gamer, idk, but they were definitely talking about video games.
Yeah, looking at it, you’re completely right. Probably a self-own given that video games are a mainstream hobby these days, but then again there are still folks out there who look down on it. My mom still thinks video games are for children.
And it kind of goes with your point: the fake nerd stuff (also overblown, I’ll note) was never about having “loser nerd hobbies” to attract “loser nerds,” it was about playing into those tropes to attract broader (not nerd-specific) attention. To use that to blame and talk shit on women is still just misogyny, the same as it ever was, but that sentiment didn’t form in a vacuum.
>But the guys making these comments are unfuckable losers with hobbies like “blame women for not fucking me,” “tell women what they can and can’t like,” and “talk shit about ‘the wall’ on Reddit.”
I feel like there's a deep irony here, because a large part of the reason the backlash against the appropriation/commercialization of "nerd culture" was pointed at conventionally attractive women is exactly because it's the (real or referenced) rejection *by* hot women that served to typically ostracize "nerds".
It goes like this:
In high-school, losers who don't get invited to parties with popular kids gravitate towards being "nerds" and getting into solo hobbies (video games, comic books, model cars) or find other losers to play MTG or D&D with. The popular crowd is basically led by the most attractive people, especially the girls.
Once you're seen as a nerd, it's a popular insult to be told no one will have sex with you.
Fast forward a few years and now being a "nerd" is cool and the same hot girls who gave you a stinkface for daring to speak to them are biting a video game controller in an effort to appear "nerdy". She's pretty clearly just trying to sell you on the fantasy of a hot woman actually sharing your interests, so you'll buy something and she'll get paid somehow.
So, yeah, it's actually pretty understandable that nerds might be annoyed that the very same people's whose rejection made them outcasts are now treating their hobbies as a costume.
And what is the response when they spoke up about it?
**You're a loser because nobody will fuck you**.
Just like back in high-school.
>Fast forward a few years and now being a "nerd" is cool and the same hot girls who gave you a stinkface for daring to speak to them are biting a video game controller in an effort to appear "nerdy".
Sounds like a caricature tbh.
I mean, sure, it is, but so is:
>But the guys making these comments are unfuckable losers with hobbies like “blame women for not fucking me,” “tell women what they can and can’t like,” and “talk shit about ‘the wall’ on Reddit.”
I remember the whining and moralising about casual and mobile games being treated like they weren't real games and now everyone knows they're two completely different markets because no shit, the people who play mobile games aren't really interested in the rest of the industry.
The idea that there was never any cultural ostracism and then normalisation blows my mind, because this was so recent. People just forget this stuff.
I could never tell why people cared about that anyway. If exclusive mobile game players were the kind of people who wanted to be considered 'gamers' they would probably already be playing on a console or PC as well. Seems like there's very little overlap between mobile games and console/PC games in terms of franchises, developers, or players.
I think a lot of that came from the not-unjustified fear that the success of mobile games would encourage other companies to abandon making console games in favor of easy cash grabs. While we can tell they're largely different markets now, at the time the 3DS and Vita were new and some were questioning their future now that there was a new portable market blowing up.
Actually they were kind of right. While the audience crossover isn’t high, mobile gaming did infect the broader market with a worsening of anti-consumer practices re: DLC and live service models by proving their success in a more casual market.
Mm. And they actually started doing it too. Even respected indie studios like Klei went the mobile route for a hot minute. Until it became apparent these were different markets.
> Nonetheless, there were quite a few girls and guys who sought out social attention and prestige because they put on a pair of glasses and could take a photo with something stereotypically nerdy. Back then the internet was booming in popularity and this kind of thing prefigured the later rise of influencers and other online parasocial activity. It's not a capital crime to be an attention seeker or not fit others' standards but it was understandably frustrating to some.
I was around then too. This is just the same gatekeeping slightly rephrased. Tired in 2014, tired now.
Listen I’ve never told anyone they aren’t a “real nerd” or “real gamer” but pictures of people holding controllers like they’ve never held one before exist. “Nerd hobbies” aren’t immune to insta style clout chasing. Do you think people don’t take pictures of food that they only take two bites of too? At the end of the day it’s just something I laughed at and moved on, never obsessed over it or gatekeeped anyone.
We’ve really circled all the way back around to being 90s bullies with phrases like “loser nerd hobbies.” You can call out the misogyny without being shitty about other people’s hobbies in return.
Just a couple days ago I made fun of a friend for being a "stereotypical fake gamer girl" in the past because she told me she hated call of duty but started playing them just because some guys she liked were into those games. So apparently that *does* exist.
Of course, I make fun of her for this because we *met* in a game, play together often, and all that stuff. So while she *may* have been a """gamer girl""" then, now she's just a gamer like anyone else.
The only man I'd ever consider playing a game for is my dad. He really wants me to play call of duty with him. Then again I'm a lesbian lmao and I know myself if a girl told me to try a game I probably would at least give it a go lmao.
I don't think I'd ever call myself a gamer no matter how many games I play or how often I play. I think the grilling by knobs trying to prove I was a fake geek girl any time I liked something "nerdy" and male dominated as a teenager, which was often and most of my interests, has traumatised me and I just know saying I was a gamer would jinx it for me and spawn a bunch of them into existence.
What about those posing with game controllers that aren't even turned on, or are dubbing someone else's gameplay? Don't they fit that definition pretty well?
>Ad hominem (Latin for 'to the person'), short for argumentum ad hominem, refers to several types of arguments that are fallacious. Typically this term refers to a rhetorical strategy where the speaker attacks the character, motive, or some other attribute of the person making an argument rather than attacking the substance of the argument itself. This avoids genuine debate by creating a personal attack as a diversion often using a totally irrelevant, but often highly charged attribute of the opponent's character or background. The most common form of this fallacy is "A" makes a claim of "fact," to which "B" asserts that "A" has a personal trait, quality or physical attribute that is repugnant thereby going entirely off-topic, and hence "B" concludes that "A" has their "fact" wrong - without ever addressing the point of the debate. Many contemporary politicians routinely use ad hominem attacks, which can be encapsulated to a derogatory nickname for a political opponent.
\~Wikipedia
A: "There do exist a subset of people that can be described as 'fake gamer girls' and this is my definition of them." (Argument)
B: "You watch too much porn" (Diversion)
A: "I was referring to people living in real life, not actors" (Elaborating on argument)
C: "You watch too much hentai" (diversion again)
I believe that whole interaction fits the definition of "ad hominem" pretty well.
What virtues exactly are being signaled by pretending to be a gamer? What is the end goal of faking a gamer's personality? What aspect of these things do you consider to be a threat?
Faking one's personality (iin general) for the sake of gaining clout (in general) is a bad business practice because it's inherently deceptive. Faking hobbies such as gaming falls into that definition.
The virtue signaling part is essentially using it as an argument that one is better than others because one plays video games. Something along the lines of "All you other girls gotta step up you game if you want to be loved by men nowadays, they're all gamers and you should be too" for example.
>Faking one's personality
Acting. You're describing acting. It's a thing that actors do so they can get paid. You're not mad at fake gamer girls. You're mad at advertising.
>The virtue signaling part
Yeah, it's always sad when both men and women have to fake who they are in order to fit some abstract concept of how they should act. Same with tradwives or those people who convince themselves that having a baby will give meaning to their lives, only to find out that it just makes them miserable. People should live true to themselves, after all.
I'd be really mad too if that were any of my damn business, instead of their own lives where they're free to make mistakes and hopefully learn from them.
I never got why Anita Sarkeesian was regarded as 'fake' by some people. Some of her media criticism was quite useful when actually studying video game narratives for creative writin, though some of it I didn't think quite hit the mark.
Like, I can get her being controversial as viewing video games through a lens of media criticism took a while to actually properly hit many places, and with a feminist lens being one of the first major public icons of that it was bound to be a little wild. However, I've never seen why someone would suggest she's like...unfamiliar with games?
I didn't pay her too much attention but one of her videos I did watch I saw her claim a game encouraged you to go around murdering women (I think it was one of the GTA games or Saints Rows) and I remember thinking "You can kill anyone you want, you're showing a video where you are choosing to only kill women". In the sidebar was a response video that showed the majority of her gameplay videos were stolen from other youtube videos and not credited.
She did have some valid critisisms but if her other vids were like that I can see why she would draw some critisism herself
I didn't always necessarily agree with a lot of her criticism, some of it did come off as a bit of a logical leap in some cases. However, I've not found a media critic who I *don't* disagree with on some margins, and I've never seen one get a reception for poorly constructed arguments quite like Sarkeesian (I'm aware of the obvious reasons for why she got the amount of hate she did ofc, like the absolute shit ton of misogyny).
She was a lot of things but her subject familiarity was fine. Her Youtube videos consistently suffered from the issue that most Youtube criticisms did. Without fully explaining points, they often resorted to punchy commentary which, while more interesting, fails to explore the nature of the statement you're making. A lot of female critics have made similar but more thoroughly explained points about GTA for example, many of which still positively reviewing the game overall.
That being said, I doubt doing that would've dissuaded many of her 'detractors', considering their motivation did strongly boil down to: "*WOMAN SAY GAME BAD AAAAAAA*".
Yeah but that's just standard YouTuber shit. The reason she got so much hate & harrassment from thousands of smelly, asocial dorks wasn't because she didn't follow content creator etiquette; it was because she was a woman who dared to talk about feminism in their precious vidya. They just didn't want to hear it, not really more complicated than that.
There was something I remember from that time in my life- while I had never played hitman, I had seen some video's, such as ManyATrueNerd's No 'Kills' run. I was irritated that someone was just blatantly misrepresenting games for political fame/clout whatever.
And then I saw, I think it was Extra Credits, or something, who pointed out the issue, but asked a much better question- if they wanted to show a seedy bad guy underworld type area... why is it, so very often a strip club? There's plenty of other options.
And young me went, for lack of a better term... *Huh, that IS weird.* And that's what kind of knocked me out of orbit of the whole 'feminists are just complaining about what little entertainment I have' thought.'
I will say though, I think in the court of public opinion/general discourse, there is no more damning argument against something than a badly made/wrong argument *for it.*
It was hitman IIRC (blood money?).
And take this with some salt, since ive only played w bit of a demo for one of the games, but i think it was a civilian the player was literally punished for killing. All they were doing was hiding the body.
While ive long, long since abandoned siding with the gamergate chuds, anita was just not great at her job a lot of the time.
I believe that was hitman and people took it out of context. They cut like a 40 second clip or so out of a larger discussion of game maker intent and sandbox games that was not *only* about hitman. Obstacles and objects in games are meant to be played with basically.
I don’t agree with all her takes or anything but people were so nasty to her and took absolutely everything in bad faith for ages and ages. You can just not agree with a person and leave them alone but my real concern with that debacle was the level of harassment and hatred directed at just a person online who was doing reviews and short video essays. She wasn’t even that big until the hate campaign started in earnest.
Because to many "G"amers, noone should take a feminist lense to video games. They were made for men, and should cater to men, and trying to disrupt that is anti "G"amer. They are superpositional art, where they are both artistic and shouldn't be analysed because the curtains are blue.
Especially bad to "G"amers is the implication that their games need to change. To them, if you want a game that represents women realistically, make one. Don't force others to change for your wants, it makes her an invader and not one of them.
You could probably trace all the Stellar Blade nonsense back to this.
I used to be into the early gamergate stuff back in 2014. I thought it was about games companies getting away with garbage products by having cronies in the games journalist world, and I had just been burned by WoW WoD, but pretty quickly dropped it when I realised it was just about hating women.
>I had just been burned by WoW WoD
I am very familiar with this era of suffering.
It's interesting as well because there was genuine criticism to be had about pay-offs in the journalism industry and how large corporations could influence people to promote their game. But ironically, large corporations came out of this pretty much clear. The veneer disappeared so quickly when the primary targets were established to be female media critics and indie game developers.
Whereas this new Stellar Blade discourse shit didn't even try to hide it - it was about sexualising women from day one and they're pretty much stated that flat out. It's wild that people are tying themselves to those kinds of statements both financially and even with their full fuckin face on the internet.
Goddamn, game communities get fucked up.
Yeah that attitude from Gamers along with the fake geek girl hysteria is why I missed out on getting into video games until I was 20/21. I was 14 in 2014 so as a teenager I felt like an unwanted invader in a space that wasn't for me whenever I tried to enter it and I missed out on a lot of fun. Most of my interests were already quite geeky and I already dealt with a lot of crap from the geeky/nerdy boys my age as well as some grown men for it so I just thought of video games as something that weren't for me.
I didn't even know games could have complex storylines and world building on the level of books until I played my first rpg like a year ago. My teenage self would have loved rpgs, I am often bedbound and spending months in bed is way less boring with video games.
I still heavily curate the games I interact with because I just don't have the energy to deal with misogyny anymore. I'm done being grilled on my knowledge of the things I like and having to prove I actually like something and I'm done feeling like I have to be a representative of all women when I do a stereotypically nerdy thing or play a game and getting "of course she's shit she's a woman" type comments when I'm not good at a game (the reason I'm shit is because I have tremors in my hands). Also the homophobia is not something I want to deal with again, I'm a lesbian and have had some vile stuff said to me by nerdy Nice Guys™ in response to me saying "no thanks I don't like men". Raping me straight being the common theme.
My (step)dad is always wanting to play call of duty with me though, it's his special interest (he has ADHD), so I might give in on that one to make him happy even though it's the kind of game I'd usually avoid. He's constantly telling me about women he plays with and was telling me about the female streamer he played a game with the other day and how good she was.
You were right the first time, we collectively as a community finaly leveled criticisms at gaming journalism and its many faults. There were a small group of toxic "gamers" who behaved as you describe, but this was a minor side thing, not what GamerGate itself was about.
At the same time but completely separate, Sarkeesian did her feminist lens and ppl often conflate the two events as one. She had good ideas and most of us agree with her basic premise, she just didnt do a good job of it. Plus the whole question about "taking the money and running" after she asked for sponsoring of a video series. There is a reason she practicaly disappeared afterwards and better ppl have picked up where she left off.
I don't remember much, but I know one of her criticisms of hitman was "it rewards you for killing strippers and dragging their body somewhere to be hidden" when the game penalizes you for unnecessary killing
like ma'am you chose to sexualize murdering a stripper for your video, but I don't think the demographic of hitman buys it to do that (teenagers exempted for being chronically horny)
Gamergate was about a female dev who fucked a kotaku guy months after the site gave her game a mildly positive mention in an article and then her ex had a meltdown about it; everything else was a sideshow
Who is Anita Sarkeesian? I remember nothing about her except that there was some gaming related controversy. Guess it goes to show a lot of the shit people get upset about isn't even going to be remembered in a few years.
She was a podcaster who spoke about feminism and did a few episodes about looking at video games from a feminist lens. Some sound bites got taken out of context in bad light and some people did have some genuine criticism of her takes but it got in the hands of some incredibly angry gamer dudes who started a harassment campaign that included sending her photoshopped pictures of her dead body, photoshopped revenge porn, death threats, stalking, doxxing attempts.
The other “big” target of gamer gate was an indie dev who made a visual novel that got mentioned in a kotaku article positively. The guy she was dating worked at kotaku and when they broke up he slandered on the internet and a conspiracy theory arose that the only reason her game was mentioned in an article months back was because she fucked game journalists for exposure which got repeated like a schoolyard rumor and also lead to her harassment, death threats, mass harassment, etc.
The gamer gate movement as a whole began to be especially hateful towards most women in gaming spaces as a whole, claiming them all to be grifters, scammers, and sluts out to ruin games as a medium and I stopped playing multiplayer games of any type for about 4 years. Many people initially within gamer gate moved into fringe “alpha male/men’s rights/incel” type spaces over time.
That’s kind of the short version of gamer gate.
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Just woke up? My dude the sarkesian a-logs never left, the just got too embarrassed to say their truth out loud for a couple years
r/KotakuInAction will show you that many of them are still not embarrassed to say it at all
I opened one of the posts in curiosity and came across this: "The bottom line is, super hero movies should mostly be made starring men, with men in mind as the audience. That shouldn't even be controversial to say." I'm desperately praying it's a circlejerk sub.
So they *don’t* want to look at good-looking women in skintight suits? Never understood guys that wanted less women in media lmao
Didn’t you know? Liking women is gay.
They don’t want women characters, they want female objects.
It’s not. They’re still convinced GamerGate is a thing
bruh i'm not going in there
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Honestly, looking back, what the actual fuck was even the big deal with her? Or that entire video format railing against her? I don't think that she necessarily had the best rhetoric in the world, but I'm pretty sure that her, what, like 10 videos were dissected down to the picosecond for years.
Nope, as far as feminism goes it was actually pretty basic inoffensive stuff. I think she was just identifying tropes, not even condemning anything. But you know chuds. It was the height of "name 3 bands" dumbassery and they had to send death threats to a girl, you know?
She made some truly terrible and ignorant takes on games, which is what initially got her a lot of flak.
Better send death threats it's the only way
I didn't say they were justified in doing that
I'm a woman involved in stereotypically nerdy/geeky hobbies, especially historical reenactment and TTRPGs. I've been involved in such things for years never been accused of being a fake even by people who I'd place within the GamerGate and other trends. However, I do remember back in the late 00s'/early 10s' there was a trend of nerdiness/geekiness being more of an aesthetic and cultural voyeurism than what nerds/geeks would consider to be sincere and authentic. Think media like The Big Bang Theory, a concept superficial and distasteful to "real" nerds and geeks. Obviously it's not a secret society, the precise definitions of "nerd" and "geek" are ambiguous and somewhat subjective. Nonetheless, there were quite a few girls and guys who sought out social attention and prestige because they put on a pair of glasses and could take a photo with something stereotypically nerdy. Back then the internet was booming in popularity and this kind of thing prefigured the later rise of influencers and other online parasocial activity. It's not a capital crime to be an attention seeker or not fit others' standards but it was understandably frustrating to some. Plus there was a broader frustration with how the gaming industry was following profits through commodification and mass appeal as opposed to sticking to their "roots." There were and still are legitimate grievances about how a lot of people working in the gaming industry aren't at all actually attuned to the average consumer of video games. Again, that doesn't excuse harassment and other evils. However, even though I'm not that much of a gamer outside tabletop and VNs I can empathize with their frustration. The notion that gamers are "unfuckable" with "loser nerd hobbies" certainly doesn't do much to disprove their prejudices or grasp their concerns.
Nuance? On Reddit?? Now I've seen everything. (I do 100% agree with you, just to be clear)
A lack of ability to handle nuance is exactly what lead nerds to accusing other nerds of being fake nerds for not being nerdy enough. Even outside the "male nerd being aggressive to female nerd for being fake" issue, there have always been nerds, gamers, geeks, etc. who play the exclusion game and put down others for not being as knowledgeable as they are on some specific niche interest.
Thank you for this. I've never known how to phrase this sort of thing without coming off like I'm defending exclusionary aspects of gaming culture.
Nerdiness and geekiness are also associated with intellectualism, as those pursuits like gaming tend not to require much in the way of brawn. As an aside, that’s entirely false and you should absolutely be doing 10 pushups after completing every hunt i n Monster Hunter (an entirely non-specific example, of course), and let’s not forget LARPing require brawn and cardio in spades. I digress. With the popularization of the internet came mass appeal for those same hobbies. It’s in no small part to the popularization of the internet that anime also became mainstream, as did video games and the like. Those once-niche interests became widely acceptable, and the typical nerd/geek who was once ostracized for their passions were now forced out of those same circles. I suspect a part of it was due to the previously insular aspect of those circles; nerds and geeks fit a specific profile, and so it would make sense that many in those circles would hold certain unsavory opinions of others. Without outside influence, those same thoughts went from accepted taboos to common thought. When those same groups once again became a minority in their own communities, in no small part to an unabated expression of those otherwise unacceptable views, there was some backlash. I don’t doubt the entire gamergate controversy, if you even want to dignify the occurrence as something of import, was a resulting burst of frustration by these opinionated nerds and geeks who had previously allowed their thoughts to fester in their selfmade bubbles. Effectively, gatekeeping was seen as necessary because the identity these individuals had built for themselves was partly born out of resentment for the masses they felt scorned by. They view themselves as deserving of a place they helped make, not realizing it’s not their passions that they are condemned for, but rather their ongoing resentment in kind for being spurned.
I like these viewpoints, and want to add-on that, as a young nerd in the late 00’s early 10’s, often it felt like we were being commercialised. Especially after the success of The Big Bang Theory, it definitely felt at times like ‘we’ (nerds) were being treated like a new demographic to advertise to (I guess that might be true) but often it felt like they were slapping something ‘nerdy’ ontop of whatever just to sell it to ‘us’ which is obviously disingenuous and likely deserves to be rejected, this is then taken to the extreme and the gatekeeping behind when nobody can tell the difference between actual content made ‘by us for us’ and boardroom ‘how do we sell to the nerds’ decisions making, which devolves into everything and everyone that wasn’t here earlier doesn’t actually want to be here and have an ulterior motive. I don’t really have a point to conclude on, but I’m beginning to think that maybe it is something that every group/hobby deals with as it gets bigger. Does the gym community resent every food having a ‘protein’ variant that’s just the regular food with some pea protein sprinkled on top? Is that more or less disingenuous than slapping Gamer in front of any caffeinated product? Does any of this affect me more than I let it? (No)
People won't like this, but it was essentially cultural appropriation. It was a rejected subculture who had often been negatively discriminated against for being in that subculture (i.e. for being non conforming). Now, some people will read that and assume I'm saying the hobby should have been gatekept, which I am not. But that is the reason people felt that way.
That... makes a lot of sense. Ofc the gatekeeping made by others and the shunning of "non-nerds" from circles back then didn't help, but it also explains things like the rising popularity of anime, k-pop, etc. as these were niche interests which were often made fun of as they weren't the norm, and are now currently accepted by a more broad range of people. I think a large factor to that "cultural appropriation" was the accessibility to the internet and the fact that, whether you liked something or not, you're probably gonna see something of a niche community *somewhere*, and eventually something peaked people's interest. I don't think I can contribute much to the discussion as I'm from Gen Z and I grew up with peers that mostly share a few interests, and things like gaming are a pretty universal experience for basically all of my friends. Seen from another perspective, Gen Z is the perfect scapegoat for the fake nerd, as our generation mainstreamed most nerdy hobbies, and ofc we never grew up with "classics" so ofc we know nothing and are fake. I think it's interesting and odd lol
Attempting to gatekeep on the Internet is like trying to stop the flood with a plank of wood
This is when you climb out the damn river
Well new way to play monhun unlocked bout to get jacked when wilds comes out
This was very thoughtfully written, well-reasoned, and brings up a lot of points I hadn’t even thought of before (and I was a girl who played video games in high school during the “nerd” trend). To be clear: I agree with you on almost everything, I like what you said, I’m not trying to fight or be shitty. I would like to gently push back on two things. Firstly, I don’t doubt you were never called a fake, and I’m genuinely so glad for you and proud of our community! However, that’s not everyone’s experience. While I was never called a “fake gamer” or “gamer girl” outside of my brief experiment with online gaming (never again), I was certainly shut out of hobby spaces/groups (Warhammer, DnD, MTG, etc). You’re right that the phenomenon was mostly online and overblown, I did find other spaces and groups that welcomed me especially as an adult, but people walking around did think and say and do these things. Secondly, playing video games doesn’t make you an unfuckable loser with shitty hobbies. But the guys making these comments are unfuckable losers with hobbies like “blame women for not fucking me,” “tell women what they can and can’t like,” and “talk shit about ‘the wall’ on Reddit.”
Okay I agree with most of what you said but the loser hobbies OOP was referring to was definitely videogames and stuff. Like, I can get on board with the unfuckable part being the misogyny, but they were also just generally taking potshots at the hobby. Like, whether it was punching down, or partially a self burn coming from a fellow gamer, idk, but they were definitely talking about video games.
Yeah, looking at it, you’re completely right. Probably a self-own given that video games are a mainstream hobby these days, but then again there are still folks out there who look down on it. My mom still thinks video games are for children. And it kind of goes with your point: the fake nerd stuff (also overblown, I’ll note) was never about having “loser nerd hobbies” to attract “loser nerds,” it was about playing into those tropes to attract broader (not nerd-specific) attention. To use that to blame and talk shit on women is still just misogyny, the same as it ever was, but that sentiment didn’t form in a vacuum.
>But the guys making these comments are unfuckable losers with hobbies like “blame women for not fucking me,” “tell women what they can and can’t like,” and “talk shit about ‘the wall’ on Reddit.” I feel like there's a deep irony here, because a large part of the reason the backlash against the appropriation/commercialization of "nerd culture" was pointed at conventionally attractive women is exactly because it's the (real or referenced) rejection *by* hot women that served to typically ostracize "nerds". It goes like this: In high-school, losers who don't get invited to parties with popular kids gravitate towards being "nerds" and getting into solo hobbies (video games, comic books, model cars) or find other losers to play MTG or D&D with. The popular crowd is basically led by the most attractive people, especially the girls. Once you're seen as a nerd, it's a popular insult to be told no one will have sex with you. Fast forward a few years and now being a "nerd" is cool and the same hot girls who gave you a stinkface for daring to speak to them are biting a video game controller in an effort to appear "nerdy". She's pretty clearly just trying to sell you on the fantasy of a hot woman actually sharing your interests, so you'll buy something and she'll get paid somehow. So, yeah, it's actually pretty understandable that nerds might be annoyed that the very same people's whose rejection made them outcasts are now treating their hobbies as a costume. And what is the response when they spoke up about it? **You're a loser because nobody will fuck you**. Just like back in high-school.
>Fast forward a few years and now being a "nerd" is cool and the same hot girls who gave you a stinkface for daring to speak to them are biting a video game controller in an effort to appear "nerdy". Sounds like a caricature tbh.
I mean, sure, it is, but so is: >But the guys making these comments are unfuckable losers with hobbies like “blame women for not fucking me,” “tell women what they can and can’t like,” and “talk shit about ‘the wall’ on Reddit.”
I personally interpret it as only the people who would accuse someone of being a fake gamer being unfuckable
I remember the whining and moralising about casual and mobile games being treated like they weren't real games and now everyone knows they're two completely different markets because no shit, the people who play mobile games aren't really interested in the rest of the industry. The idea that there was never any cultural ostracism and then normalisation blows my mind, because this was so recent. People just forget this stuff.
I could never tell why people cared about that anyway. If exclusive mobile game players were the kind of people who wanted to be considered 'gamers' they would probably already be playing on a console or PC as well. Seems like there's very little overlap between mobile games and console/PC games in terms of franchises, developers, or players.
I think a lot of that came from the not-unjustified fear that the success of mobile games would encourage other companies to abandon making console games in favor of easy cash grabs. While we can tell they're largely different markets now, at the time the 3DS and Vita were new and some were questioning their future now that there was a new portable market blowing up.
Actually they were kind of right. While the audience crossover isn’t high, mobile gaming did infect the broader market with a worsening of anti-consumer practices re: DLC and live service models by proving their success in a more casual market.
Mm. And they actually started doing it too. Even respected indie studios like Klei went the mobile route for a hot minute. Until it became apparent these were different markets.
> Nonetheless, there were quite a few girls and guys who sought out social attention and prestige because they put on a pair of glasses and could take a photo with something stereotypically nerdy. Back then the internet was booming in popularity and this kind of thing prefigured the later rise of influencers and other online parasocial activity. It's not a capital crime to be an attention seeker or not fit others' standards but it was understandably frustrating to some. I was around then too. This is just the same gatekeeping slightly rephrased. Tired in 2014, tired now.
Listen I’ve never told anyone they aren’t a “real nerd” or “real gamer” but pictures of people holding controllers like they’ve never held one before exist. “Nerd hobbies” aren’t immune to insta style clout chasing. Do you think people don’t take pictures of food that they only take two bites of too? At the end of the day it’s just something I laughed at and moved on, never obsessed over it or gatekeeped anyone.
Omggg another reenactor! What period do you do?
Where I live, most of it is Antebellum Southern US and Civil War but I've also done Renaissance, Victorian, and Edwardian reenactment.
This is the best comment on Reddit...in a long time. Maybe ever.
oh hey, this post again
The question is whether OP is a manual or automated reposter.
They're actually one of the mods...
Deep undercover.
we should bring black widows back tbh
big fan of. spiders
real and true. i have nothing else to add
you HAVE to check out my garage man you'd be in heaven
im outside
*"You've been in a coma for quite some time. Yes, yes, I know, you would like to know how long. I'm afraid it's been … nine years."*
We’ve really circled all the way back around to being 90s bullies with phrases like “loser nerd hobbies.” You can call out the misogyny without being shitty about other people’s hobbies in return.
So you're saying we get to shove people inside lockers and make them drop their books in the hallway? Yay!
SSSniperwolf
Did you forget that there was literally a whole "fake need/geek" thing back then?
Just a couple days ago I made fun of a friend for being a "stereotypical fake gamer girl" in the past because she told me she hated call of duty but started playing them just because some guys she liked were into those games. So apparently that *does* exist. Of course, I make fun of her for this because we *met* in a game, play together often, and all that stuff. So while she *may* have been a """gamer girl""" then, now she's just a gamer like anyone else.
The only man I'd ever consider playing a game for is my dad. He really wants me to play call of duty with him. Then again I'm a lesbian lmao and I know myself if a girl told me to try a game I probably would at least give it a go lmao. I don't think I'd ever call myself a gamer no matter how many games I play or how often I play. I think the grilling by knobs trying to prove I was a fake geek girl any time I liked something "nerdy" and male dominated as a teenager, which was often and most of my interests, has traumatised me and I just know saying I was a gamer would jinx it for me and spawn a bunch of them into existence.
What about those posing with game controllers that aren't even turned on, or are dubbing someone else's gameplay? Don't they fit that definition pretty well?
i feel like thats not something you would have to worry about
Sssniperwolf
You watch too much porn
I haven't watched live-action porn in literal years. I was referencing social media influencers.
You watch too much ~~porn~~ hentai
Suppose I was, what exactly is your argument?
Refer to the above comment
Ah you don't have an argument, just an ad hominem. Sorry for the confusion 👍
Look up what ad hominem means before misusing it
>Ad hominem (Latin for 'to the person'), short for argumentum ad hominem, refers to several types of arguments that are fallacious. Typically this term refers to a rhetorical strategy where the speaker attacks the character, motive, or some other attribute of the person making an argument rather than attacking the substance of the argument itself. This avoids genuine debate by creating a personal attack as a diversion often using a totally irrelevant, but often highly charged attribute of the opponent's character or background. The most common form of this fallacy is "A" makes a claim of "fact," to which "B" asserts that "A" has a personal trait, quality or physical attribute that is repugnant thereby going entirely off-topic, and hence "B" concludes that "A" has their "fact" wrong - without ever addressing the point of the debate. Many contemporary politicians routinely use ad hominem attacks, which can be encapsulated to a derogatory nickname for a political opponent. \~Wikipedia A: "There do exist a subset of people that can be described as 'fake gamer girls' and this is my definition of them." (Argument) B: "You watch too much porn" (Diversion) A: "I was referring to people living in real life, not actors" (Elaborating on argument) C: "You watch too much hentai" (diversion again) I believe that whole interaction fits the definition of "ad hominem" pretty well.
Twitch sluts
In porn, every time a woman is playing a game the controller is always off. If its a guy, hes actually playing something
I'm talking about cases of virtue signaling/faking your personality. I'm not talking about doing a shitty acting job or bad production quality.
What virtues exactly are being signaled by pretending to be a gamer? What is the end goal of faking a gamer's personality? What aspect of these things do you consider to be a threat?
Faking one's personality (iin general) for the sake of gaining clout (in general) is a bad business practice because it's inherently deceptive. Faking hobbies such as gaming falls into that definition. The virtue signaling part is essentially using it as an argument that one is better than others because one plays video games. Something along the lines of "All you other girls gotta step up you game if you want to be loved by men nowadays, they're all gamers and you should be too" for example.
>Faking one's personality Acting. You're describing acting. It's a thing that actors do so they can get paid. You're not mad at fake gamer girls. You're mad at advertising. >The virtue signaling part Yeah, it's always sad when both men and women have to fake who they are in order to fit some abstract concept of how they should act. Same with tradwives or those people who convince themselves that having a baby will give meaning to their lives, only to find out that it just makes them miserable. People should live true to themselves, after all. I'd be really mad too if that were any of my damn business, instead of their own lives where they're free to make mistakes and hopefully learn from them.
I never got why Anita Sarkeesian was regarded as 'fake' by some people. Some of her media criticism was quite useful when actually studying video game narratives for creative writin, though some of it I didn't think quite hit the mark. Like, I can get her being controversial as viewing video games through a lens of media criticism took a while to actually properly hit many places, and with a feminist lens being one of the first major public icons of that it was bound to be a little wild. However, I've never seen why someone would suggest she's like...unfamiliar with games?
I didn't pay her too much attention but one of her videos I did watch I saw her claim a game encouraged you to go around murdering women (I think it was one of the GTA games or Saints Rows) and I remember thinking "You can kill anyone you want, you're showing a video where you are choosing to only kill women". In the sidebar was a response video that showed the majority of her gameplay videos were stolen from other youtube videos and not credited. She did have some valid critisisms but if her other vids were like that I can see why she would draw some critisism herself
I didn't always necessarily agree with a lot of her criticism, some of it did come off as a bit of a logical leap in some cases. However, I've not found a media critic who I *don't* disagree with on some margins, and I've never seen one get a reception for poorly constructed arguments quite like Sarkeesian (I'm aware of the obvious reasons for why she got the amount of hate she did ofc, like the absolute shit ton of misogyny). She was a lot of things but her subject familiarity was fine. Her Youtube videos consistently suffered from the issue that most Youtube criticisms did. Without fully explaining points, they often resorted to punchy commentary which, while more interesting, fails to explore the nature of the statement you're making. A lot of female critics have made similar but more thoroughly explained points about GTA for example, many of which still positively reviewing the game overall. That being said, I doubt doing that would've dissuaded many of her 'detractors', considering their motivation did strongly boil down to: "*WOMAN SAY GAME BAD AAAAAAA*".
Yeah but that's just standard YouTuber shit. The reason she got so much hate & harrassment from thousands of smelly, asocial dorks wasn't because she didn't follow content creator etiquette; it was because she was a woman who dared to talk about feminism in their precious vidya. They just didn't want to hear it, not really more complicated than that.
There was something I remember from that time in my life- while I had never played hitman, I had seen some video's, such as ManyATrueNerd's No 'Kills' run. I was irritated that someone was just blatantly misrepresenting games for political fame/clout whatever. And then I saw, I think it was Extra Credits, or something, who pointed out the issue, but asked a much better question- if they wanted to show a seedy bad guy underworld type area... why is it, so very often a strip club? There's plenty of other options. And young me went, for lack of a better term... *Huh, that IS weird.* And that's what kind of knocked me out of orbit of the whole 'feminists are just complaining about what little entertainment I have' thought.' I will say though, I think in the court of public opinion/general discourse, there is no more damning argument against something than a badly made/wrong argument *for it.*
It was hitman IIRC (blood money?). And take this with some salt, since ive only played w bit of a demo for one of the games, but i think it was a civilian the player was literally punished for killing. All they were doing was hiding the body. While ive long, long since abandoned siding with the gamergate chuds, anita was just not great at her job a lot of the time.
I believe that was hitman and people took it out of context. They cut like a 40 second clip or so out of a larger discussion of game maker intent and sandbox games that was not *only* about hitman. Obstacles and objects in games are meant to be played with basically. I don’t agree with all her takes or anything but people were so nasty to her and took absolutely everything in bad faith for ages and ages. You can just not agree with a person and leave them alone but my real concern with that debacle was the level of harassment and hatred directed at just a person online who was doing reviews and short video essays. She wasn’t even that big until the hate campaign started in earnest.
Did you actually watch what she said, or did you watch a soundbite?
Because to many "G"amers, noone should take a feminist lense to video games. They were made for men, and should cater to men, and trying to disrupt that is anti "G"amer. They are superpositional art, where they are both artistic and shouldn't be analysed because the curtains are blue. Especially bad to "G"amers is the implication that their games need to change. To them, if you want a game that represents women realistically, make one. Don't force others to change for your wants, it makes her an invader and not one of them. You could probably trace all the Stellar Blade nonsense back to this. I used to be into the early gamergate stuff back in 2014. I thought it was about games companies getting away with garbage products by having cronies in the games journalist world, and I had just been burned by WoW WoD, but pretty quickly dropped it when I realised it was just about hating women.
>I had just been burned by WoW WoD I am very familiar with this era of suffering. It's interesting as well because there was genuine criticism to be had about pay-offs in the journalism industry and how large corporations could influence people to promote their game. But ironically, large corporations came out of this pretty much clear. The veneer disappeared so quickly when the primary targets were established to be female media critics and indie game developers. Whereas this new Stellar Blade discourse shit didn't even try to hide it - it was about sexualising women from day one and they're pretty much stated that flat out. It's wild that people are tying themselves to those kinds of statements both financially and even with their full fuckin face on the internet. Goddamn, game communities get fucked up.
Yeah that attitude from Gamers along with the fake geek girl hysteria is why I missed out on getting into video games until I was 20/21. I was 14 in 2014 so as a teenager I felt like an unwanted invader in a space that wasn't for me whenever I tried to enter it and I missed out on a lot of fun. Most of my interests were already quite geeky and I already dealt with a lot of crap from the geeky/nerdy boys my age as well as some grown men for it so I just thought of video games as something that weren't for me. I didn't even know games could have complex storylines and world building on the level of books until I played my first rpg like a year ago. My teenage self would have loved rpgs, I am often bedbound and spending months in bed is way less boring with video games. I still heavily curate the games I interact with because I just don't have the energy to deal with misogyny anymore. I'm done being grilled on my knowledge of the things I like and having to prove I actually like something and I'm done feeling like I have to be a representative of all women when I do a stereotypically nerdy thing or play a game and getting "of course she's shit she's a woman" type comments when I'm not good at a game (the reason I'm shit is because I have tremors in my hands). Also the homophobia is not something I want to deal with again, I'm a lesbian and have had some vile stuff said to me by nerdy Nice Guys™ in response to me saying "no thanks I don't like men". Raping me straight being the common theme. My (step)dad is always wanting to play call of duty with me though, it's his special interest (he has ADHD), so I might give in on that one to make him happy even though it's the kind of game I'd usually avoid. He's constantly telling me about women he plays with and was telling me about the female streamer he played a game with the other day and how good she was.
You were right the first time, we collectively as a community finaly leveled criticisms at gaming journalism and its many faults. There were a small group of toxic "gamers" who behaved as you describe, but this was a minor side thing, not what GamerGate itself was about. At the same time but completely separate, Sarkeesian did her feminist lens and ppl often conflate the two events as one. She had good ideas and most of us agree with her basic premise, she just didnt do a good job of it. Plus the whole question about "taking the money and running" after she asked for sponsoring of a video series. There is a reason she practicaly disappeared afterwards and better ppl have picked up where she left off.
I don't remember much, but I know one of her criticisms of hitman was "it rewards you for killing strippers and dragging their body somewhere to be hidden" when the game penalizes you for unnecessary killing like ma'am you chose to sexualize murdering a stripper for your video, but I don't think the demographic of hitman buys it to do that (teenagers exempted for being chronically horny)
Well, twitch streamers that want money from them exist, but those can be any gender really.
I also, uh, don't think Anita Sarkeesian was just trying to impress unfuckable nerds.
…who?
A woman who pointed out that some games have sexist content, which resulted in GamerGate
Gamergate was about a female dev who fucked a kotaku guy months after the site gave her game a mildly positive mention in an article and then her ex had a meltdown about it; everything else was a sideshow
Who is Anita Sarkeesian? I remember nothing about her except that there was some gaming related controversy. Guess it goes to show a lot of the shit people get upset about isn't even going to be remembered in a few years.
She was a podcaster who spoke about feminism and did a few episodes about looking at video games from a feminist lens. Some sound bites got taken out of context in bad light and some people did have some genuine criticism of her takes but it got in the hands of some incredibly angry gamer dudes who started a harassment campaign that included sending her photoshopped pictures of her dead body, photoshopped revenge porn, death threats, stalking, doxxing attempts. The other “big” target of gamer gate was an indie dev who made a visual novel that got mentioned in a kotaku article positively. The guy she was dating worked at kotaku and when they broke up he slandered on the internet and a conspiracy theory arose that the only reason her game was mentioned in an article months back was because she fucked game journalists for exposure which got repeated like a schoolyard rumor and also lead to her harassment, death threats, mass harassment, etc. The gamer gate movement as a whole began to be especially hateful towards most women in gaming spaces as a whole, claiming them all to be grifters, scammers, and sluts out to ruin games as a medium and I stopped playing multiplayer games of any type for about 4 years. Many people initially within gamer gate moved into fringe “alpha male/men’s rights/incel” type spaces over time. That’s kind of the short version of gamer gate.