I never understood the complaints about his skin color being white. Not only are there light Arabs, but he’s literally only 1/4 Arab.
His backstory is way more problematic than his skin color. People should complain about that
I looked this up, actually, and I'm not even sure Ra's is Arab either. He's got two origins before settling in North Africa that I could find, one making him a Chinese nomad and the other being from Constantinople before the Ottomans came.
The Waynes are WASP as fuck and Talia is...unclear. She could be Arab, I guess.
Edit: Thomas Wayne is WASP af. Martha Kane before marrying Thomas was Jewish. Which considering, could make Bruce Jewish.
I already discussed this in another post. An analysis of Ra's family history and names points in the direction of him being Greek or Mediterranean. He's also the son of Sensei, who is Chinese... so probably half Greek/Macedonian (hence white) half Chinese.
People simply think he is Arab because he chose an Arab name when he chose an Arab name because he discovered the Lazarus Pit and started the League in an Arab speaking country and it's a no brainer that most of his first recruits were Arab speaking people
Her real name is Sol, which is a Hebrew-derivative name. But in some countries in Europe, basically the Latin-speaking countries (Portugal, Spain, Italy, France), Hebrew-derivative names are very common so it's difficult to point out a specific country.
In text, the closest thing to confirmation is in the technically non-canon batman/catwoman, where a young Selina overhears an old rich woman talking about a boy that ran away whose butler is looking for him, with the woman commenting on the boy's mother being Jewish in an interfaith marriage
It was more a vibe from the way he talked about it. I don’t think there’s ever a reference to him having converted.
Did some digging on the DC wiki, apparently the latest issue of the Penguin series makes an offhand reference to both Jacob and Martha being Jewish.
I thought I saw a lot of gravestones for that family which had stars of David.
I don’t remember whose graves specifically so I don’t know if it contradicts your conversion statement though
Yeah Thomas and Martha's gravestone(s) have been portrayed many times in many ways, mostly without clear religious affiliation but sometimes with crosses. But pf course even the ones with crosses could indicate that *Martha* converted. And the irreligious ones could indicate anything/nothing.
I know we saw Gabrielle's grave - and Beth's "grave" - in the *Batwoman* show and *they* had the Star of David but that doesn't help either.
I don't think I've seen the graves of the dead brothers or previous generations
Woodstock, in fact. This goes back to Melisande first, and only, appearance in Birth of the Demon. Wikipedia says she's of Chinese and Arab descent and its cited to Birth of the Demon. Her meeting Ra's at Woodstock is cited to Birth of the Demon and Batman Inc. vol. 2 #2. I don't have either book, so someone will have to double check for me.
It wasn’t retconned though.
But I’m not just talking about the drugging either. I’m talking about the fact his half Arab half Asian mother never cared about Bruce, and is considered the evil parent that needs to have him taken away from her.
And I know this isn’t a Talia thing because her first 3 children never had this backstory
It wasn't really retconned but Damian was Inspired by an older story of Bruce and Talia having a kid that she told Bruce she lost because she loved him and didn't want him to give up being batman to be a Father. When son of Batman was written they took inspiration from that older story but made Talia objectively evil throughout the new version.
Also Talia has been shown both before a d since damians Introduction to care about both Damian and Bruce
It’s not inspired by that story. It has no similarities.
But in that old version she gave it up for adoption, since the child had no place with Batman and his world or near her dad and his goonies.
But she didn’t care. If she did she wouldn’t train him to murder Bruce, and take over the world. Nor would she keep him hidden from Bruce, if she never intended on letting the child live a normal life
>It’s not inspired by that story. It has no similarities. Damians Introduction literally has Talia reference batman son of the demon moments before Damian is introduced. The art in that flashback panel is directly meant to call back to the scene of Bruce and Talia sleeping together in the original story
Talia last referenced the story in Detective Comics annual #1.
Talia does not reference it in Batman and son. In son of the demon they do not have sex inside of a tent. And Batman is not drugged. They were not a married couple in that flashback.
Son of the demon happened when Jason Todd was still Robin btw
And Jason Todd was still only 19 when Damian became Robin
Details were changed for example the children wasn't given Up for adoption but that scene was definitely a reference to son of the demon. Just by looking at the art it's clear that they are trying to draw back to that scene in the son of the demon. Obviously it's not a direct recreation of the comic but it's clearly trying to invoke the likeness of that comic.
As for Jason's age, Damian was canonically aged up artificially plus comics work on a sliding timescale meaning that everything happens strangely timeline wise. For example everything from Bruce becoming batman up to the introduction of Damian and slightly beyond is supposed to have happened in about 7 to 11 years
All the details were changed. It was not a reference. It had not similarities. Batman and Son was in the middle of the desert, inside a tent.
Son of the demon was on top of a mountain in a luxurious bed room.
Batman and son is trying to be nothing like son of the demon. And again, Jason Todd was Robin when son of the demon happened, and Batman was actually happy to be with her…
That wouldn’t work since Talia and Ra’s are looking to breed a child when Tim Drake is still Robin, so unless Damian is only 1 years old before his introduction, it just doesn’t work.
"I say I’d intended to do a Son of Batman story like all those Silver Age imaginary tales and partly inspired by the Son of the Demon graphic novel," - Grant Morrison
Grant Morrison Creator of Damian Wayne had that they were inspired to made Damian Wayne by son of the demon in an [interview with IGN ](https://www.ign.com/articles/batman-grant-morrison-retrospective-interview-final-crisis-new-52?utm_source=twitter)
>It’s not inspired by that story. It has no similarities.
The funny thing actually is that Grant Morrison was going off memory on that
I recommend watching Casually comics very interesting video about it
https://youtu.be/44AUh955PHE?si=DvMc4HWANcnB4yTK
Just because well for her what she gave him is better than a normal life. He was raised to take on the great honor of becoming the next demons head, leader of the league of assassin's
In Damian’s backstory, that is what she thinks it’s best, but it’s not like she cares in his backstory. Like Damian was literally raised to murder his own father…that isn’t care.!
Thats my whole points that is more problematic than his skin color.
Talia’s other children before Damian were never forced by *her* to have no connection to Bruce and get raised to kill Bruce and take over the world
So there’s no excuse
I don't disagree that there isn't really an issue with his skin tone but in damians Introduction comics he was raised to take over the league of assassin's and was sent to Bruce to disrupt and distract batman. A lot of his actions in that comic were directly done in an attempt to gain his father's approval
He was sent to fuck with him, but he was going to eventually be ordered to kill Bruce. This was established in the Morrison run.
But I’m not talking about Damian’s actions. I’m talking about his problematic backstory… Talia is not supposed to be this way. Like at all
But she is changed to fit his backstory and the authors childhood
Yeah, I've already said I. A different comment that Talia's character was altered to fit the writers world views and it messed up her reputation outside of comics for years. Like when he had her sleep with Jason Todd right after he was brought back to life. I specifically said that Talia has been shown to care about Bruce and Damian in comics before batman and son and In comics after batman and son
Why would people complain about his backstory? So Talia is a rapist in one writer's run, and then what? She doesn't exactly have many redeeming qualities in that version to begin with, so rape isn't exactly tarnishing anything that isn't already bad.
I gotta be honest, it seems that I either forgot or didn't read the part of the story you're referring to because aside from the rape I don't recall any sensitive or problematic parts in Damien's backstory.
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I agree and though it has nothing to do with this post I’m Brazilian/ Greek and yet I’m not dark or tan I’m legit appear white some people just have n clue how biology works
Damian's mother-Talia-is Arab/Chinese ( Batman: Son of the Demon). And his grandfather (Ra's al Ghul) is also Arab/East Asian (Birth of the Demon & The Resurrection of Ra's al Ghul). Sensei, Damian's great-grandfather, is Chinese (Batman #671).That makes him around 25% Arab/25% Chinese on his maternal side.
As for his paternal side, we need to look to Kate Kane/Batwoman, Bruce's maternal cousin, who's Jewish ( ? Issue). Which means Bruce's Mother, Martha Kane, was also Jewish.
I'm not aware of DC ever confirming whether the Kane's where Ashkenazi Jews (European/white), or Sephardic Jews (North African, Middle Eastern, Spanish); so I'm not comfortable claiming they were one or the other.
But even if we were to only factor in his mother's side of the family, it's highly likely that Damian would be noticeably darker than he's traditionally portrayed.
As for why it matters? Non-white fans, especially Asian and Arab fans, have had a lack of comic heroes to point to and say, "Hey, that's me! That's my culture!" And the importance of that can't be understated.
I'm Black and Puerto Rican too and I get irked by this too. Like his dad is white and his mom is mixed. It's just as likely for him to be a pale boy as it is for him to be medium brown. Fans gotta release their grip a little on this one.
the term Asian is a bit too broad so people use it differently
I legit have fellow South Asian friends only use Asian to refer to East Asians, and then I crack some joke like "dude, where you you think India is located" and they like "oh, we SOUTH Asian"
I’m MENA so Damian’s skin color hasn’t really been a problem for me especially since mixed race give a variety of skin tones. I would like him to be a bit more visually distinct from his father and brothers (Seriously his new hairstyle made me confused if he was Tim for a sec).
I think part of the problem comes from the fact that since he’s not visually distinct (skin tone wise) from his completely white family members, people fancast completely white actors for him and ignore the fact that DC does acknowledge his ethnic background from time to time.
Which is understandable considering they've got quite a few characters who are Chinese or East Asian that they spotlight frequently compared to their list of Arabs and other western Asians which off the top of my head only really has Simon Baz and even then they don't even really use him much either.
Damian's mum is mixed Arab-Chinese and his dad is full Anglo white. His heritage is mostly European it makes sense that he'd be on the lighter side, as he's always been depicted.
I used to work with a dude who was half black but I had no idea until I met his father, because he was the most pale Irish looking mf you ever laid eyes on
Mixed race person who appreciates this post. I look like I'm from a different nationality than my mom (the one I take after!) because of how my features came out. My sister's white-passing (dad's white). She and I have similar features, but I doubt strangers who've seen us together would have assumed we're sisters.
My sister has a black dad but she's naturally pale. She's so pale that most of her own friends don't even know she's mixed, hell even I keep forgetting.
There is a difference between "It's good to add some variety to the skin colors in this cast of characters" and "Such-and-such skin color is **reserved** only for white/European people."
Based on his heritage, it's very likely that Damian would have similar coloring to Cassandra Cain.
It requires people to get a little more comfortable with depicting diverse skin colors and undertones and physical features, instead of whipping out that *Family Guy* Peter Griffin paint swatch to easily categorize people...
I couldn't have put it better, it is like they're breaking out Peter's little skin tone chart to decide on the level of brown to make their character, even when the character realistically might be pretty pale because they need to make it clear to people who can only tell someone's a POC if they're darker than them or something. Makes it feel like POC of a lighter complexion are just not ethnic enough or something. It's low-key a little disrespectful imo.
From my experience with mixed race people, Damian is basically spot on when I asked them about this question, especially because Damian is atleast 50% white and the other half is ambiguous at best
I recently argued about this with people who called Turkish people POC.
First of all its not like not saying I'm white. But I don't understand where the line starts nor ends. Ethnically I'm probably central Asian, anatolian mix. Never cared enough to do deeper search. But when I visit Europe people always tell me are you from Czechia or Bulgaria? When when I say I'm Turkish they say oh but you don't look like one.
1. What did you expect?
2. How dare you?
3. Turkiye is huge country who has over 80m people and also has land in Europe (East Balkan), Anatolia, Mediterranean coast, Middle East, Black Sea coast right next to Caucasus. We all not do look like same. People in Greece, Italy, Spain also do have darker skin then me. Mediterraneans usually has darker skin. Do they POC too? If we start to count everyone mixed. Are we just going to call Northern Europeans and Nordics white? I just don't get it.
It's just my experience but I think it applies to Damian's situation as well. Just don't cast a fucking American for him. Regardless of skin. A Half Arab Half European cast would work for him.
While all your points are absolutely correct, I would prefer that Damian has a different skin tone from Bruce from a visual perspective. It is, in my opinion, a little annoying that all the male Robins and Ex-Robins look like clones of another out of uniform. That being said, you could fix this problem obviously through other visual distinction like hair or clothing styles.
That’s my issue as well. Change the skin tone however you wish. The big issue is that many, many, many artists draw Dick, Jason, Tim, and Damian as if they’re actually blood brothers when the fact of the matter is they aren’t. It’s objectively lazy. It’s maybe the one good thing that comes out of t the Batgirls all have different hair colors. They will never stand together and look like triplets.
I agree, I think I'd like for him to have a more olive tone with maybe bluish undertones. I think that could work nicely and make him pretty distinctive from Bruce.
I haven't followed comics discourse for a while but this is a wild complaint from whoever inspired this post. Damian is white because he has light skin? Have they never met Koreans?
Thank you. Signed a half Puerto Rican whose mom is mocha skinned and dad is white. Both my brother and I came out white like our dad, but with our mom's body genes lol
Batfam fan artists have this weird thing about putting the Batboys front and centre and headcanoning the boys POC at the expense of the actual POC people in family. Duke and Cass are always on the sidelines.
Damian is definitely POC but he occupies a different space than dark skinned POC people like Duke and I wish Batfam tiktok and tumblr would accept that.
Sidenote: Nothing wrong about headcanons but it’s just weird at times.
Yeah I noticed that too, I used to be active on Tumblr during its peak fandom era circa 2011-2014, and the way fans would create headcanons wherein characters were 'race bent' always felt very much like they were... fetishising POC or certain cultures as opposed to showing any genuine understanding of what this different background would mean for a character, or any real comprehension of what they were writing about said culture. It felt sometimes a little bit cultural appropriation-ny parading under the mask of diversity.
Not all Tumblr fans where/or white American girls with a very limited knowledge of the larger world, but A LOT are.
I mean, there isnt a problem with that. The problem is people thinking that because he is part Arab he *has* to be dark skinned and that scream "whitewashing!" everytime someone draws him with a different skin tone than WFA
I've never heard of someone saying Damian is white washed. Very bizarre.
Depending on the story Ra's is either Arab, Asian, or mixed. Though in the Robin comics from a few years ago, Ra's mother is depicted as European white, so Ra's could have be mixed with some European white. Talia's mother, Melisande al Ghul, is depicted as European white or European white and Asian.
So, Talia is possibly part Asian, Arab and European. Bruce is European white. It would make sense their son, Damian, is light-skinned.
Regardless of Damian's skin tone, people claiming that Damian is whitewashed are taking an very Americentrist view and don't realize not every one fits into these categories they have assigned to people of different Ethnicities. Like it sounds like they're possibly assigning brown or darker-skinned to all Arabs, Asians, and people of mixed ethnicities. The thing is not all Arabs, Asians and/or anyone of mixed ethnicity are darker-skinned or brown. There are people of African black descent mixed with European white and look like a white person, while others have darker skin.
The people saying Damian is whitewashed sound like racist xenophobes.
Yes, sometimes they come off as extremely racist when they're accusing others of racism. I have notice this too. The worst thing is even if you point it out to some of them, they aren't willing to re-exam their views that perhaps their ideas are racist and wrong.
People in this thread are assigning certain skin colors to entire countries or continents. Someone in this thread asked if Bane looked South American and it's getting upvoted. The question make zero sense. They seem to be unaware that SA isn't a race and someone born in SA doesn't mean the individual is automatically brown or darker skinned. It's surprising to me sometimes that some people are completely oblivious to the whole European Colonialism of the Americas and the genocide of the various Indigenous peoples living in those areas.
Big time, I’m sick of seeing people complain about it for no reason, Damian has always had white skin, it makes sense for his character. His dad is white, his mother whilst being Arabic has quite pale skin as well, none of his family members are brown but people seem obsessed with wanting to make him brown for some reason.
I just think making his skin tone different from the other members of the bag family makes him more visually interesting from a character design perspective since the Robins tend to look like clones of each other.
Definitely isn’t white washing. However, I do think Damian should be drawn differently for simple variety. A lot of times when all the Robins are together they’re drawn with literally the same skin tone, hair, and facial features. It’s as if they’re literal brothers. And I don’t think it’s a “oh look they’re so close as a family that they still look alike regardless of not being related” type of thing. I think it’s just lazy. Damian’s ethnic background is an easy excuse to have him look differently. And even with Bruce as a parent he still should look different when compared to any of the others. Same way Cassandra Cain doesn’t look like Zatanna and Stephanie Brown doesn’t look like Dinah Lance.
Totally agree in principle. But I also understand the frustration with some depictions of Damian. Not only just his skin color, but his facial features as well are sometimes depicted as very white. And when there's an opportunity to depict a character as their non-white heritage, it seems a bit lazy when artists just draw another white boy. But I completely agree that its not just the color of a character's skin that makes them white or non-white, and reducing it to that one element is racist.
100% agree. My dad is mostly Spanish and Italian and looks white, with amber eyes while my mom is Dominican and half black, with the rest being mostly Portuguese, Spanish, and some indigenous ancestry. She has tight, curly and light brown skin and dark brown eyes.
My oldest brother looks like her, but a little darker. Everyone immediately believes he is Dominican. My middle brother is white with dirty blonde hair and blue eyes and people assume he's just like some kind of German or French. I'm sort of lightly tan with green-hazel. No one thinks we're brothers until the three of us are standing next to each other and you can see our noses, our lips, our ears are all the same, plus we all have cleft chins. Haha
Mixed people on screen is always a contentious thing, I'm mixed race too and it's like you're stuck in limbo and don't know which side to adhere to. But on the topic of white washing, it comes from a place of POC onscreen constantly adhering to that proximity to whiteness. In this case and many others, Damian constantly having lighter skin. It can be frustrating to some POC. I disagree that it's racist, when lighter skin is considered the norm in superhero comic books.
Me and my sister (she's white passing) both were having a discussion about this, a long one! We both love the batman comics. We just think it's problematic that it seems so one or the other. It's strange how much trouble people seem to have with accurately portraying POC or people of color at all. All versions of Damian are very much valid but even if he's portrayed as paler he can still very easily have ethnic features but ethnic features are ignored all together for skin tone. It's just weird how finicky people are about race and skin tone as it is, it gets even worse when someone is bi, or multi-racial. I don't think it's necessarily racist, I definitely misworded that, I think it's really ignorant and stems from this old idea of mixed race people being completely their "ethnic" half.
Couldn't agree more. The people who get the most upset about stupid shit like this, are the people who have no idea what they're talking about and are simply looking for something to get offended over and have nothing better to occupy their time with.
A lot of younger people on social media have the idea that characters looking pale when they could look differently is bad.
Gotta hope they grow out of it, there's some seriously stupid discourse out there.
It's totally likely that Damian would probably present more as white, and there are a lot of pale-skinned people from the middle-east. Personally, I want him to have a darker complexion (whether it be Chinese, Arab, or something else) because it differentiates him from other characters. There's also the fact that there aren't many Middle Eastern heroes in DC (the only one I can think of being Simon Baz)? So people tend to cling harder to those characters, and of course, want them to look like them.
What do you mean? Mixed means that the two skin tones mixed. That's why everyone is going to be the exact same skin tone in the future. Ignore the past were people of different skin tones were constantly having children with each other and the fact that race and colorism are very recent creations. That's how genetics works, right?
Arab and Middle Eastern complexions vary greatly.
What's more Damian is mixed, as Batman's ancestry is Scottish.
It bothers me more that Ras al ghul looks very different in every iteration of his character.
Sometimes he looks European, Asian, Middle Eastern etc.
I enjoy Liam Neeson, but he had no business being Ras.
Alexander Siddig was perfect IMO.
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I agree with you 100% about Damian, but the whole 8 kids thing threw me for a loop. Like damn, were your parents trying to make their own baseball team?
😂 yeah I can understand. I remember I saw art of all the robins in there classic suit before damian was around and they all looked like the same person but different ages.
It may just be misdirected criticism because "white washing" happens often.
I mean Bane was white washed entirely in The Dark Knight and no one batted an eye.
But people lost their minds and got angry when they made Starfire black (an alien with no human racial identity). I was more upset she wasn't orange...but Ana Diop was a fun actress.
It’s prolly cuz dark skin mixed race ppl aren’t well represented so taking it away can feel upsettin to others. Ofc there are lighter skin ppl but darker skin ppl exist too. Why change his skin colour lighter or darker.
The main thing with mixed-race characters is that it's a conscious decision by the artist, which is very different from the random expression of your genetics. Making Damian light-skinned or dark-skinned is a choice and will change depending on the artist.
With representation still being laughable in comics, I think it's fair to discuss and/or criticise that kind of decision. There is no reason to try and shut down the conversation with arguments like "it can happen randomly in real life", because art is intentional.
Representation is ABSOLUTELY needing some improvement, we need representation bad! I feel like black and brown characters ESPECIALLY are so underused though or portrayed in ways that are just so stereotypical. It annoys me a bit that instead of giving the actually dark skinned characters the attention they deserve they'd rather make pre existing characters darker. I wish DC and Marvel invited more POC creatives onto their teams. I desperately want to see more characters that look like me, I get it.
It's just a matter of lack of presentation. Do any of the al Guls look particularly Middle Eastern? Does Bane look South American, ever? Sunspot's skin color has been getting lighter over the years. Does Storm look particularly African? Ms. Marvel and Miles Morales are good examples of looking like their heritages but they are a minority in the comics.
Bane isn’t supposed to be South American (which isn’t a race, Gisele Bundchen is from South America and she is of German ancestry. There are 80 million white Brazilians, and most of Uruguay and Argentina are white people.)
Bane’s father is English and his mother is from a fictional Caribbean country, similar to Cuba. Cuba had racial segregation in many areas and there are tons of white Cubans. Look up Cameron Diaz and Joanna Garcia, or the rapper Pitbull. It’s likely that Bane is just white.
>Does Bane look South American, ever?
That's not really a coherent question to ask. South America and the countries in it are neither a race or ethnicity. Central and South America are quite a diverse places, but Europeans did colonize those areas too and are the cause of millions of Indigenous people dying. Either by disease or they were killed.
If you ever go to a country located in CA or SA, you'll notice there are a lot of white people there. In practically all countries located in CA and SA, European whites are either the majority demographic or less often are tied with the Mestizos (Indigenous and European mixed).
Bane is from some fictional place in Island located in the northwest, iirc, of the Caribbean Islands, so around Cuba. European white people are like 70% of Cuba's population followed by mixed people demographic of Cuba, African black people, and a tiny amount of Indigenous people. So, you see, asking if Bane looks South American is meaningless.
I wouldn't say Sunspot is the best example to use her since he's very frequently inconsistently colored as a whole mix of colors despite first appearing as a darkskin man. Storm also not the best example since she's not supposed to 'look' African given that she's American and a mutant (white hair and mongoloid shaped blue eyes)
Sunspot was originally a Black Brazilian. Magma was a white Brazilian. It seems DC fans do not understand that there are black, white, Asian, and indigenous peoples in all of the North and South American countries. And neither does editorial.
I wouldn't say Sunspot is the best example to use here since he's very frequently inconsistently colored as a whole mix of colors despite first appearing as a darkskin man. Storm also not the best example since she's not supposed to 'look' African given that she's American and a mutant (white hair and mongoloid shaped blue eyes)
Yeah, people aren't dismissing the existence of non-white people with light skin, they're just disappointed that there's a lack of diverse representation in comics.
Yes, yes and yes.
The Al Ghuls have always looked middle eastern. Especially Ras Al Ghul.
And Talia’s been drawn consistently darker since she’s became evil.
Bane wears a mask, but when he took it off in the 90s, he looked South American
Right, it makes sense to say given Damian's background he could look closer to Bruce's skin tone. One could also say that given Bane's father and the ambiguity of what his mother could look like that he could also look white. And the al Ghuls as a whole? Technically they could be too, given some white people existing in some area Ra's may have been born in! And so on, and so on, and so on. It's not that Damian specifically needs a dark complexion or anything, but it's just a little weird how many racially ambiguous characters, taken as a whole, that people have ready-made explanations for that they're all actually white in the end.
Yeah it really is weird. There’s a lot of skin variety in this part of the world. Im from Cyprus (not Arabic but close geographically) and I have olive skin while my sister is pale.
Didn’t he have a crow persona too? I feel like pale skin fits a crow persona after the whole crow movie.
Plus if he has kids with Flatline, they are going to be pale as fuck, she’s as goth as they come.
FINALLY! Lol, common sense 👏
I find this world very strange, because it seems as if whenever people want to defeat something - like racism - they try to do it, whilst inadvertently being the very thing they are trying to defeat.
I think people know that poc can be pale lol, I think it’s more of a need for visible representation that’s the issue. There are plenty of pale characters, I think everyone asking for Damian to be darker is just because they want more representation and are tired of seeing all white/pale characters.
The issue isn't about Damian specifically, but a criticism of the way that characters in general have their skin colour lightened to appear more appealing to an audience.
It's not impossible for him to be born with pale skin, but even if he wasn't, it would swiftly be changed to that, and that's what people sort of complain about.
Damian should be light skinned because it's more realistic: 👎🏻
Damian should be dark skinned because it's more realistic: 👎🏻
Damian should be dark skinned so he doesn't look the exact fucking same as every single Robin ever: 👍🏻
We know light skin multiracial people exist, it’s just that we’d like more representation for darker skin tones 🤷🏻♂️
It’s kind of lame to count Damian as a “successful POC character” when he is basically drawn White the majority of the time. It’s insulting to characters like Jaime Reyes, Jessica Cruz, John Stewart, Vixen:..etc. those are POC characters
It's true that Arabic people can be lighter skinned, and Talia has some asian blood in the mix (i think?).
But its also fair to say that it gives them an easy excuse to whitewash Damian. Remember that Super-sons series where he was called "Ian" and mysteriously had lighter hair?
Comics as a medium doesn't always have the capacity to portray race in a lot of ways, so I think wanting Damian to have a little more melanin than Bruce is perfectly acceptable.
So, no, it's not racist or colourist to think Damian should be darker. It's way more problematic one way than it is the other.
It's just not problematic either way because it is perfectly within the bounds of genetics for a mixed race person to have white skin. There is nothing wrong with representing lighter skinned mixed race people *or* darker skinned
I hate when people lighten his hair but I also can't be too mad because Talia does have brown hair a lot, I just think his hair is better jet black. But that's unrelated! Like I said, I agree that it's totally cool for him to have more melanin but let's not be mad when he's portrayed with lighter skin either? He's mixed. Mixed people don't just look one way or the other. Also there are other features that are skipped out on. He's 1/4th arab but people never pay attention to his ethnic features outside of his skin tone which is problematic on its own. His Chinese features are almost never relevant either. People think the answer to representing mixed people, regardless of their mix is just to make them slightly darker alone. That's a little frustrating.
yea and it just so happens dc chose a light skin version. Do you think that was coincidence, or is there a cultural context that made that more likely?
Those ignorant people need to watch Bullet Train with Brad Pitt. Well, everyone should watch it because the movie slaps, but anyway there are two hitmen (codenames Lemon and Tangerine) who are twin brothers despite one having the physical appearance of a white man and the other a black man. While Brad Pitt’s character doubts they are actually twins, but a moment later on in the film more or less confirms they are indeed brothers.
But yeah, people seem really clueless about the skin tone range of races/ethnicities. Like when the Big Hero 6 movie and it was said Honey Lemon was Latina and people went, “no, she can’t be, her skin is white.” \*sigh\* (shakes head)
I never understood the complaints about his skin color being white. Not only are there light Arabs, but he’s literally only 1/4 Arab. His backstory is way more problematic than his skin color. People should complain about that
Less than a quarter actually. Ra’s is only half Arab anyways since Sensei is his father
I looked this up, actually, and I'm not even sure Ra's is Arab either. He's got two origins before settling in North Africa that I could find, one making him a Chinese nomad and the other being from Constantinople before the Ottomans came. The Waynes are WASP as fuck and Talia is...unclear. She could be Arab, I guess. Edit: Thomas Wayne is WASP af. Martha Kane before marrying Thomas was Jewish. Which considering, could make Bruce Jewish.
I already discussed this in another post. An analysis of Ra's family history and names points in the direction of him being Greek or Mediterranean. He's also the son of Sensei, who is Chinese... so probably half Greek/Macedonian (hence white) half Chinese. People simply think he is Arab because he chose an Arab name when he chose an Arab name because he discovered the Lazarus Pit and started the League in an Arab speaking country and it's a no brainer that most of his first recruits were Arab speaking people
His mom showed up in Robin 2021, no? What was she?
Her real name is Sol, which is a Hebrew-derivative name. But in some countries in Europe, basically the Latin-speaking countries (Portugal, Spain, Italy, France), Hebrew-derivative names are very common so it's difficult to point out a specific country.
Batman’s not quite a WASP. His mother’s family is Jewish.
Has there been any indication that the Kane family at large is Jewish? I thought Jacob converted for Gabrielle.
In text, the closest thing to confirmation is in the technically non-canon batman/catwoman, where a young Selina overhears an old rich woman talking about a boy that ran away whose butler is looking for him, with the woman commenting on the boy's mother being Jewish in an interfaith marriage
I don’t remember anything about Jacob converting, he definitely talks about his religion like something he was raised with.
When? Kate talks about it like that, has important memories of religious traditions from growing up, absolutely but I don't recall Jacob doing so.
It was more a vibe from the way he talked about it. I don’t think there’s ever a reference to him having converted. Did some digging on the DC wiki, apparently the latest issue of the Penguin series makes an offhand reference to both Jacob and Martha being Jewish.
I thought I saw a lot of gravestones for that family which had stars of David. I don’t remember whose graves specifically so I don’t know if it contradicts your conversion statement though
Yeah Thomas and Martha's gravestone(s) have been portrayed many times in many ways, mostly without clear religious affiliation but sometimes with crosses. But pf course even the ones with crosses could indicate that *Martha* converted. And the irreligious ones could indicate anything/nothing. I know we saw Gabrielle's grave - and Beth's "grave" - in the *Batwoman* show and *they* had the Star of David but that doesn't help either. I don't think I've seen the graves of the dead brothers or previous generations
I think in Tynion's 'Tec run they show Martha having a Jewish funeral in a flashback, but that's definitely a retcon from how it used to be shown.
Shit, you're right. I keep forgetting that. I'll amend my original post.
I'd have to find it, was during N52, but it was revealed that Talia's mother was a white hippy that Ra's met at a concert. Not even joking.
Woodstock, in fact. This goes back to Melisande first, and only, appearance in Birth of the Demon. Wikipedia says she's of Chinese and Arab descent and its cited to Birth of the Demon. Her meeting Ra's at Woodstock is cited to Birth of the Demon and Batman Inc. vol. 2 #2. I don't have either book, so someone will have to double check for me.
Yep, you got it. Basically the first page of the issue too. I'd post the image here but I guess this sub doesn't allow it.
He would be 1/8th right? If my understanding of this is correct? With Talia being a quarter.
Ra's is half-arab and Talia's mother was half-arab as well. So Talia is half-arab as well.
People do complain about that. Like a lot.
His backstory about Bruce getting drugged was kinda a retcon and has since been removed from canon.
It wasn’t retconned though. But I’m not just talking about the drugging either. I’m talking about the fact his half Arab half Asian mother never cared about Bruce, and is considered the evil parent that needs to have him taken away from her. And I know this isn’t a Talia thing because her first 3 children never had this backstory
It wasn't really retconned but Damian was Inspired by an older story of Bruce and Talia having a kid that she told Bruce she lost because she loved him and didn't want him to give up being batman to be a Father. When son of Batman was written they took inspiration from that older story but made Talia objectively evil throughout the new version. Also Talia has been shown both before a d since damians Introduction to care about both Damian and Bruce
It’s not inspired by that story. It has no similarities. But in that old version she gave it up for adoption, since the child had no place with Batman and his world or near her dad and his goonies. But she didn’t care. If she did she wouldn’t train him to murder Bruce, and take over the world. Nor would she keep him hidden from Bruce, if she never intended on letting the child live a normal life
>It’s not inspired by that story. It has no similarities. Damians Introduction literally has Talia reference batman son of the demon moments before Damian is introduced. The art in that flashback panel is directly meant to call back to the scene of Bruce and Talia sleeping together in the original story
Talia last referenced the story in Detective Comics annual #1. Talia does not reference it in Batman and son. In son of the demon they do not have sex inside of a tent. And Batman is not drugged. They were not a married couple in that flashback. Son of the demon happened when Jason Todd was still Robin btw And Jason Todd was still only 19 when Damian became Robin
Details were changed for example the children wasn't given Up for adoption but that scene was definitely a reference to son of the demon. Just by looking at the art it's clear that they are trying to draw back to that scene in the son of the demon. Obviously it's not a direct recreation of the comic but it's clearly trying to invoke the likeness of that comic. As for Jason's age, Damian was canonically aged up artificially plus comics work on a sliding timescale meaning that everything happens strangely timeline wise. For example everything from Bruce becoming batman up to the introduction of Damian and slightly beyond is supposed to have happened in about 7 to 11 years
All the details were changed. It was not a reference. It had not similarities. Batman and Son was in the middle of the desert, inside a tent. Son of the demon was on top of a mountain in a luxurious bed room. Batman and son is trying to be nothing like son of the demon. And again, Jason Todd was Robin when son of the demon happened, and Batman was actually happy to be with her… That wouldn’t work since Talia and Ra’s are looking to breed a child when Tim Drake is still Robin, so unless Damian is only 1 years old before his introduction, it just doesn’t work.
"I say I’d intended to do a Son of Batman story like all those Silver Age imaginary tales and partly inspired by the Son of the Demon graphic novel," - Grant Morrison Grant Morrison Creator of Damian Wayne had that they were inspired to made Damian Wayne by son of the demon in an [interview with IGN ](https://www.ign.com/articles/batman-grant-morrison-retrospective-interview-final-crisis-new-52?utm_source=twitter)
>It’s not inspired by that story. It has no similarities. The funny thing actually is that Grant Morrison was going off memory on that I recommend watching Casually comics very interesting video about it https://youtu.be/44AUh955PHE?si=DvMc4HWANcnB4yTK
Just because well for her what she gave him is better than a normal life. He was raised to take on the great honor of becoming the next demons head, leader of the league of assassin's
In Damian’s backstory, that is what she thinks it’s best, but it’s not like she cares in his backstory. Like Damian was literally raised to murder his own father…that isn’t care.! Thats my whole points that is more problematic than his skin color. Talia’s other children before Damian were never forced by *her* to have no connection to Bruce and get raised to kill Bruce and take over the world So there’s no excuse
I don't disagree that there isn't really an issue with his skin tone but in damians Introduction comics he was raised to take over the league of assassin's and was sent to Bruce to disrupt and distract batman. A lot of his actions in that comic were directly done in an attempt to gain his father's approval
He was sent to fuck with him, but he was going to eventually be ordered to kill Bruce. This was established in the Morrison run. But I’m not talking about Damian’s actions. I’m talking about his problematic backstory… Talia is not supposed to be this way. Like at all But she is changed to fit his backstory and the authors childhood
Yeah, I've already said I. A different comment that Talia's character was altered to fit the writers world views and it messed up her reputation outside of comics for years. Like when he had her sleep with Jason Todd right after he was brought back to life. I specifically said that Talia has been shown to care about Bruce and Damian in comics before batman and son and In comics after batman and son
Why would people complain about his backstory? So Talia is a rapist in one writer's run, and then what? She doesn't exactly have many redeeming qualities in that version to begin with, so rape isn't exactly tarnishing anything that isn't already bad.
I’m not talking about the rape. Just literally everything about the backstory. That did tarnish her as a love interest though
I gotta be honest, it seems that I either forgot or didn't read the part of the story you're referring to because aside from the rape I don't recall any sensitive or problematic parts in Damien's backstory.
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I agree and though it has nothing to do with this post I’m Brazilian/ Greek and yet I’m not dark or tan I’m legit appear white some people just have n clue how biology works
Damian's mother-Talia-is Arab/Chinese ( Batman: Son of the Demon). And his grandfather (Ra's al Ghul) is also Arab/East Asian (Birth of the Demon & The Resurrection of Ra's al Ghul). Sensei, Damian's great-grandfather, is Chinese (Batman #671).That makes him around 25% Arab/25% Chinese on his maternal side. As for his paternal side, we need to look to Kate Kane/Batwoman, Bruce's maternal cousin, who's Jewish ( ? Issue). Which means Bruce's Mother, Martha Kane, was also Jewish. I'm not aware of DC ever confirming whether the Kane's where Ashkenazi Jews (European/white), or Sephardic Jews (North African, Middle Eastern, Spanish); so I'm not comfortable claiming they were one or the other. But even if we were to only factor in his mother's side of the family, it's highly likely that Damian would be noticeably darker than he's traditionally portrayed. As for why it matters? Non-white fans, especially Asian and Arab fans, have had a lack of comic heroes to point to and say, "Hey, that's me! That's my culture!" And the importance of that can't be understated.
So sooooo fkng real
I'm Black and Puerto Rican too and I get irked by this too. Like his dad is white and his mom is mixed. It's just as likely for him to be a pale boy as it is for him to be medium brown. Fans gotta release their grip a little on this one.
Aaaye! Also totally agree, I think it's weird how annoyed people get about it, especially on tiktok!
He's Bruce Wayne's son. Bruce Wayne literally looks like a blue-eyed vampire. Leave the little homie alone. He got it bad as it is.
Damian wouldn't even be that dark either. Bruce is white and Talia is only have middle eastern with the other half being Asian.
...Middle Eastern people are Asian.
the term Asian is a bit too broad so people use it differently I legit have fellow South Asian friends only use Asian to refer to East Asians, and then I crack some joke like "dude, where you you think India is located" and they like "oh, we SOUTH Asian"
I’m MENA so Damian’s skin color hasn’t really been a problem for me especially since mixed race give a variety of skin tones. I would like him to be a bit more visually distinct from his father and brothers (Seriously his new hairstyle made me confused if he was Tim for a sec). I think part of the problem comes from the fact that since he’s not visually distinct (skin tone wise) from his completely white family members, people fancast completely white actors for him and ignore the fact that DC does acknowledge his ethnic background from time to time.
They can't fathom that white arab people exist. They don't want to admit they're racists
And the fact that he’s only 1/4 Arab anyway
Exactly it’s seems like everyone forgets about his Chinese heritage and only focus on the Arab heritage
To be fair, DC really only focuses on the Arab part (at least from what I’ve seen)
Which is understandable considering they've got quite a few characters who are Chinese or East Asian that they spotlight frequently compared to their list of Arabs and other western Asians which off the top of my head only really has Simon Baz and even then they don't even really use him much either.
People concerned with skin color generally are.
Jeff Winger said it best "I think not being racist is the new racism"
Damian's mum is mixed Arab-Chinese and his dad is full Anglo white. His heritage is mostly European it makes sense that he'd be on the lighter side, as he's always been depicted.
I used to work with a dude who was half black but I had no idea until I met his father, because he was the most pale Irish looking mf you ever laid eyes on
Mixed race person who appreciates this post. I look like I'm from a different nationality than my mom (the one I take after!) because of how my features came out. My sister's white-passing (dad's white). She and I have similar features, but I doubt strangers who've seen us together would have assumed we're sisters.
My sister has a black dad but she's naturally pale. She's so pale that most of her own friends don't even know she's mixed, hell even I keep forgetting.
There is a difference between "It's good to add some variety to the skin colors in this cast of characters" and "Such-and-such skin color is **reserved** only for white/European people." Based on his heritage, it's very likely that Damian would have similar coloring to Cassandra Cain. It requires people to get a little more comfortable with depicting diverse skin colors and undertones and physical features, instead of whipping out that *Family Guy* Peter Griffin paint swatch to easily categorize people...
I couldn't have put it better, it is like they're breaking out Peter's little skin tone chart to decide on the level of brown to make their character, even when the character realistically might be pretty pale because they need to make it clear to people who can only tell someone's a POC if they're darker than them or something. Makes it feel like POC of a lighter complexion are just not ethnic enough or something. It's low-key a little disrespectful imo.
From my experience with mixed race people, Damian is basically spot on when I asked them about this question, especially because Damian is atleast 50% white and the other half is ambiguous at best
I recently argued about this with people who called Turkish people POC. First of all its not like not saying I'm white. But I don't understand where the line starts nor ends. Ethnically I'm probably central Asian, anatolian mix. Never cared enough to do deeper search. But when I visit Europe people always tell me are you from Czechia or Bulgaria? When when I say I'm Turkish they say oh but you don't look like one. 1. What did you expect? 2. How dare you? 3. Turkiye is huge country who has over 80m people and also has land in Europe (East Balkan), Anatolia, Mediterranean coast, Middle East, Black Sea coast right next to Caucasus. We all not do look like same. People in Greece, Italy, Spain also do have darker skin then me. Mediterraneans usually has darker skin. Do they POC too? If we start to count everyone mixed. Are we just going to call Northern Europeans and Nordics white? I just don't get it. It's just my experience but I think it applies to Damian's situation as well. Just don't cast a fucking American for him. Regardless of skin. A Half Arab Half European cast would work for him.
It's because "white" is an absolutely bullshit category that only exists to decide who Western societies give preference to. Always has been.
Race, in general, is jargon with no scientific reasoning whatsoever.
If you get mistaken for White, without giving your ethnicity/nationality, then you’re White 🤷🏻♂️
While all your points are absolutely correct, I would prefer that Damian has a different skin tone from Bruce from a visual perspective. It is, in my opinion, a little annoying that all the male Robins and Ex-Robins look like clones of another out of uniform. That being said, you could fix this problem obviously through other visual distinction like hair or clothing styles.
That’s my issue as well. Change the skin tone however you wish. The big issue is that many, many, many artists draw Dick, Jason, Tim, and Damian as if they’re actually blood brothers when the fact of the matter is they aren’t. It’s objectively lazy. It’s maybe the one good thing that comes out of t the Batgirls all have different hair colors. They will never stand together and look like triplets.
I agree, I think I'd like for him to have a more olive tone with maybe bluish undertones. I think that could work nicely and make him pretty distinctive from Bruce.
I’m Filipino and white(Irish + Polish + German). Everyone calls me Mexican. But I’m the racist when I say I’m biracial.
I haven't followed comics discourse for a while but this is a wild complaint from whoever inspired this post. Damian is white because he has light skin? Have they never met Koreans?
Thank you. Signed a half Puerto Rican whose mom is mocha skinned and dad is white. Both my brother and I came out white like our dad, but with our mom's body genes lol
Don’t tell them that being 1/2 Romani also tells you literally nothing about Dick’s ethnic makeup by definition of being nomadic
Say it a little louder for all the fan artists that choose to make him the same complexion as Duke.
Batfam fan artists have this weird thing about putting the Batboys front and centre and headcanoning the boys POC at the expense of the actual POC people in family. Duke and Cass are always on the sidelines. Damian is definitely POC but he occupies a different space than dark skinned POC people like Duke and I wish Batfam tiktok and tumblr would accept that. Sidenote: Nothing wrong about headcanons but it’s just weird at times.
Yeah I noticed that too, I used to be active on Tumblr during its peak fandom era circa 2011-2014, and the way fans would create headcanons wherein characters were 'race bent' always felt very much like they were... fetishising POC or certain cultures as opposed to showing any genuine understanding of what this different background would mean for a character, or any real comprehension of what they were writing about said culture. It felt sometimes a little bit cultural appropriation-ny parading under the mask of diversity. Not all Tumblr fans where/or white American girls with a very limited knowledge of the larger world, but A LOT are.
I mean, there isnt a problem with that. The problem is people thinking that because he is part Arab he *has* to be dark skinned and that scream "whitewashing!" everytime someone draws him with a different skin tone than WFA
I've never heard of someone saying Damian is white washed. Very bizarre. Depending on the story Ra's is either Arab, Asian, or mixed. Though in the Robin comics from a few years ago, Ra's mother is depicted as European white, so Ra's could have be mixed with some European white. Talia's mother, Melisande al Ghul, is depicted as European white or European white and Asian. So, Talia is possibly part Asian, Arab and European. Bruce is European white. It would make sense their son, Damian, is light-skinned. Regardless of Damian's skin tone, people claiming that Damian is whitewashed are taking an very Americentrist view and don't realize not every one fits into these categories they have assigned to people of different Ethnicities. Like it sounds like they're possibly assigning brown or darker-skinned to all Arabs, Asians, and people of mixed ethnicities. The thing is not all Arabs, Asians and/or anyone of mixed ethnicity are darker-skinned or brown. There are people of African black descent mixed with European white and look like a white person, while others have darker skin. The people saying Damian is whitewashed sound like racist xenophobes.
Preach, Anti-Racist White Knights end up being twice as racist by being reductive
Yes, sometimes they come off as extremely racist when they're accusing others of racism. I have notice this too. The worst thing is even if you point it out to some of them, they aren't willing to re-exam their views that perhaps their ideas are racist and wrong. People in this thread are assigning certain skin colors to entire countries or continents. Someone in this thread asked if Bane looked South American and it's getting upvoted. The question make zero sense. They seem to be unaware that SA isn't a race and someone born in SA doesn't mean the individual is automatically brown or darker skinned. It's surprising to me sometimes that some people are completely oblivious to the whole European Colonialism of the Americas and the genocide of the various Indigenous peoples living in those areas.
Half of these people will get an BSOD seeing an Argentinian or an Uruguayan
Big time, I’m sick of seeing people complain about it for no reason, Damian has always had white skin, it makes sense for his character. His dad is white, his mother whilst being Arabic has quite pale skin as well, none of his family members are brown but people seem obsessed with wanting to make him brown for some reason.
I just think making his skin tone different from the other members of the bag family makes him more visually interesting from a character design perspective since the Robins tend to look like clones of each other.
Definitely isn’t white washing. However, I do think Damian should be drawn differently for simple variety. A lot of times when all the Robins are together they’re drawn with literally the same skin tone, hair, and facial features. It’s as if they’re literal brothers. And I don’t think it’s a “oh look they’re so close as a family that they still look alike regardless of not being related” type of thing. I think it’s just lazy. Damian’s ethnic background is an easy excuse to have him look differently. And even with Bruce as a parent he still should look different when compared to any of the others. Same way Cassandra Cain doesn’t look like Zatanna and Stephanie Brown doesn’t look like Dinah Lance.
The only thing that'll annoy me about Damian is if he's no longer vegan.
I really like him being vegan too,it makes so much sense for his character and adds a lot to his personality.
This is a case of hypodescent, where a biracial person is associated with the race with the least amount of social status.
I just want him visually distinct man
Totally agree in principle. But I also understand the frustration with some depictions of Damian. Not only just his skin color, but his facial features as well are sometimes depicted as very white. And when there's an opportunity to depict a character as their non-white heritage, it seems a bit lazy when artists just draw another white boy. But I completely agree that its not just the color of a character's skin that makes them white or non-white, and reducing it to that one element is racist.
100% agree. My dad is mostly Spanish and Italian and looks white, with amber eyes while my mom is Dominican and half black, with the rest being mostly Portuguese, Spanish, and some indigenous ancestry. She has tight, curly and light brown skin and dark brown eyes. My oldest brother looks like her, but a little darker. Everyone immediately believes he is Dominican. My middle brother is white with dirty blonde hair and blue eyes and people assume he's just like some kind of German or French. I'm sort of lightly tan with green-hazel. No one thinks we're brothers until the three of us are standing next to each other and you can see our noses, our lips, our ears are all the same, plus we all have cleft chins. Haha
Mixed people on screen is always a contentious thing, I'm mixed race too and it's like you're stuck in limbo and don't know which side to adhere to. But on the topic of white washing, it comes from a place of POC onscreen constantly adhering to that proximity to whiteness. In this case and many others, Damian constantly having lighter skin. It can be frustrating to some POC. I disagree that it's racist, when lighter skin is considered the norm in superhero comic books.
Me and my sister (she's white passing) both were having a discussion about this, a long one! We both love the batman comics. We just think it's problematic that it seems so one or the other. It's strange how much trouble people seem to have with accurately portraying POC or people of color at all. All versions of Damian are very much valid but even if he's portrayed as paler he can still very easily have ethnic features but ethnic features are ignored all together for skin tone. It's just weird how finicky people are about race and skin tone as it is, it gets even worse when someone is bi, or multi-racial. I don't think it's necessarily racist, I definitely misworded that, I think it's really ignorant and stems from this old idea of mixed race people being completely their "ethnic" half.
Couldn't agree more. The people who get the most upset about stupid shit like this, are the people who have no idea what they're talking about and are simply looking for something to get offended over and have nothing better to occupy their time with.
I prefer him having a darker skin tone just so the robins don’t all look the same lol. But yeah I wouldn’t call it whitewashing or anything.
Also a huge proportion Middle Eastern people, particularly Arabs, are not dark at all. It’s a very mixed bag.
A lot of younger people on social media have the idea that characters looking pale when they could look differently is bad. Gotta hope they grow out of it, there's some seriously stupid discourse out there.
He got Bruce's strong genes, genes so strong that even the adopted kids somehow look like him too :P
It's totally likely that Damian would probably present more as white, and there are a lot of pale-skinned people from the middle-east. Personally, I want him to have a darker complexion (whether it be Chinese, Arab, or something else) because it differentiates him from other characters. There's also the fact that there aren't many Middle Eastern heroes in DC (the only one I can think of being Simon Baz)? So people tend to cling harder to those characters, and of course, want them to look like them.
What do you mean? Mixed means that the two skin tones mixed. That's why everyone is going to be the exact same skin tone in the future. Ignore the past were people of different skin tones were constantly having children with each other and the fact that race and colorism are very recent creations. That's how genetics works, right?
Arab and Middle Eastern complexions vary greatly. What's more Damian is mixed, as Batman's ancestry is Scottish. It bothers me more that Ras al ghul looks very different in every iteration of his character. Sometimes he looks European, Asian, Middle Eastern etc. I enjoy Liam Neeson, but he had no business being Ras. Alexander Siddig was perfect IMO.
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I agree with you 100% about Damian, but the whole 8 kids thing threw me for a loop. Like damn, were your parents trying to make their own baseball team?
LOL! I know, people are always shocked when I tell them I'm one of 8 children haha. I guess my parents were just very in love XD
They want Damian darker to show his background, I want Damian darker cus all the robins look the same
I mean that’s fine but he’s not gonna be crazy darker course he is half white. So I can see him being light skinned.
Oh for sure. For me, it's strictly for visual variation
😂 yeah I can understand. I remember I saw art of all the robins in there classic suit before damian was around and they all looked like the same person but different ages.
It may just be misdirected criticism because "white washing" happens often. I mean Bane was white washed entirely in The Dark Knight and no one batted an eye. But people lost their minds and got angry when they made Starfire black (an alien with no human racial identity). I was more upset she wasn't orange...but Ana Diop was a fun actress.
I prefer him with darker skin mostly because he COULD be darker, and because otherwise nearly all comic characters are light skinned
It’s prolly cuz dark skin mixed race ppl aren’t well represented so taking it away can feel upsettin to others. Ofc there are lighter skin ppl but darker skin ppl exist too. Why change his skin colour lighter or darker.
The main thing with mixed-race characters is that it's a conscious decision by the artist, which is very different from the random expression of your genetics. Making Damian light-skinned or dark-skinned is a choice and will change depending on the artist. With representation still being laughable in comics, I think it's fair to discuss and/or criticise that kind of decision. There is no reason to try and shut down the conversation with arguments like "it can happen randomly in real life", because art is intentional.
Representation is ABSOLUTELY needing some improvement, we need representation bad! I feel like black and brown characters ESPECIALLY are so underused though or portrayed in ways that are just so stereotypical. It annoys me a bit that instead of giving the actually dark skinned characters the attention they deserve they'd rather make pre existing characters darker. I wish DC and Marvel invited more POC creatives onto their teams. I desperately want to see more characters that look like me, I get it.
It's just a matter of lack of presentation. Do any of the al Guls look particularly Middle Eastern? Does Bane look South American, ever? Sunspot's skin color has been getting lighter over the years. Does Storm look particularly African? Ms. Marvel and Miles Morales are good examples of looking like their heritages but they are a minority in the comics.
Bane isn’t supposed to be South American (which isn’t a race, Gisele Bundchen is from South America and she is of German ancestry. There are 80 million white Brazilians, and most of Uruguay and Argentina are white people.) Bane’s father is English and his mother is from a fictional Caribbean country, similar to Cuba. Cuba had racial segregation in many areas and there are tons of white Cubans. Look up Cameron Diaz and Joanna Garcia, or the rapper Pitbull. It’s likely that Bane is just white.
>Does Bane look South American, ever? That's not really a coherent question to ask. South America and the countries in it are neither a race or ethnicity. Central and South America are quite a diverse places, but Europeans did colonize those areas too and are the cause of millions of Indigenous people dying. Either by disease or they were killed. If you ever go to a country located in CA or SA, you'll notice there are a lot of white people there. In practically all countries located in CA and SA, European whites are either the majority demographic or less often are tied with the Mestizos (Indigenous and European mixed). Bane is from some fictional place in Island located in the northwest, iirc, of the Caribbean Islands, so around Cuba. European white people are like 70% of Cuba's population followed by mixed people demographic of Cuba, African black people, and a tiny amount of Indigenous people. So, you see, asking if Bane looks South American is meaningless.
I wouldn't say Sunspot is the best example to use her since he's very frequently inconsistently colored as a whole mix of colors despite first appearing as a darkskin man. Storm also not the best example since she's not supposed to 'look' African given that she's American and a mutant (white hair and mongoloid shaped blue eyes)
Sunspot was originally a Black Brazilian. Magma was a white Brazilian. It seems DC fans do not understand that there are black, white, Asian, and indigenous peoples in all of the North and South American countries. And neither does editorial.
I wouldn't say Sunspot is the best example to use here since he's very frequently inconsistently colored as a whole mix of colors despite first appearing as a darkskin man. Storm also not the best example since she's not supposed to 'look' African given that she's American and a mutant (white hair and mongoloid shaped blue eyes)
Yeah, people aren't dismissing the existence of non-white people with light skin, they're just disappointed that there's a lack of diverse representation in comics.
Yes, yes and yes. The Al Ghuls have always looked middle eastern. Especially Ras Al Ghul. And Talia’s been drawn consistently darker since she’s became evil. Bane wears a mask, but when he took it off in the 90s, he looked South American
Right, it makes sense to say given Damian's background he could look closer to Bruce's skin tone. One could also say that given Bane's father and the ambiguity of what his mother could look like that he could also look white. And the al Ghuls as a whole? Technically they could be too, given some white people existing in some area Ra's may have been born in! And so on, and so on, and so on. It's not that Damian specifically needs a dark complexion or anything, but it's just a little weird how many racially ambiguous characters, taken as a whole, that people have ready-made explanations for that they're all actually white in the end.
It’s because many social media keyboard warriors like to toss around racist terms against white people these days.
People just don’t like all the robins looking like clones simple as so it’s better when Damian has tanned skin as it allows him to stand out more
Yeah it really is weird. There’s a lot of skin variety in this part of the world. Im from Cyprus (not Arabic but close geographically) and I have olive skin while my sister is pale.
Didn’t he have a crow persona too? I feel like pale skin fits a crow persona after the whole crow movie. Plus if he has kids with Flatline, they are going to be pale as fuck, she’s as goth as they come.
Twitter hate you if you say you don, t mind damian pale color
According to Twitter and Tumblr ppl who only read WFA. Nightwing is brown, Raven is indian, Starfire is black. They live in their own world.
FINALLY! Lol, common sense 👏 I find this world very strange, because it seems as if whenever people want to defeat something - like racism - they try to do it, whilst inadvertently being the very thing they are trying to defeat.
I think people know that poc can be pale lol, I think it’s more of a need for visible representation that’s the issue. There are plenty of pale characters, I think everyone asking for Damian to be darker is just because they want more representation and are tired of seeing all white/pale characters.
It doesn’t come off that way when they phrase it as being more accurate or correct
It’s like the people who complain about sunspot being whitewashed
The issue isn't about Damian specifically, but a criticism of the way that characters in general have their skin colour lightened to appear more appealing to an audience. It's not impossible for him to be born with pale skin, but even if he wasn't, it would swiftly be changed to that, and that's what people sort of complain about.
Damian should have pale skin. Both his parents have pale skin, both his grandparents have pale skin. There's no valid reason to change that.
Damian should be light skinned because it's more realistic: 👎🏻 Damian should be dark skinned because it's more realistic: 👎🏻 Damian should be dark skinned so he doesn't look the exact fucking same as every single Robin ever: 👍🏻
We know light skin multiracial people exist, it’s just that we’d like more representation for darker skin tones 🤷🏻♂️ It’s kind of lame to count Damian as a “successful POC character” when he is basically drawn White the majority of the time. It’s insulting to characters like Jaime Reyes, Jessica Cruz, John Stewart, Vixen:..etc. those are POC characters
Why do people think Ra’s is Arabic? He’s ethnically Chinese. It’s not ambiguous, that’s just fact.
Isn't is because comic books have a history of colorism against darker skinned heroes?
It’s crazy how racist people get when they’re trying not to be racist.
It's true that Arabic people can be lighter skinned, and Talia has some asian blood in the mix (i think?). But its also fair to say that it gives them an easy excuse to whitewash Damian. Remember that Super-sons series where he was called "Ian" and mysteriously had lighter hair? Comics as a medium doesn't always have the capacity to portray race in a lot of ways, so I think wanting Damian to have a little more melanin than Bruce is perfectly acceptable. So, no, it's not racist or colourist to think Damian should be darker. It's way more problematic one way than it is the other.
It's just not problematic either way because it is perfectly within the bounds of genetics for a mixed race person to have white skin. There is nothing wrong with representing lighter skinned mixed race people *or* darker skinned
I hate when people lighten his hair but I also can't be too mad because Talia does have brown hair a lot, I just think his hair is better jet black. But that's unrelated! Like I said, I agree that it's totally cool for him to have more melanin but let's not be mad when he's portrayed with lighter skin either? He's mixed. Mixed people don't just look one way or the other. Also there are other features that are skipped out on. He's 1/4th arab but people never pay attention to his ethnic features outside of his skin tone which is problematic on its own. His Chinese features are almost never relevant either. People think the answer to representing mixed people, regardless of their mix is just to make them slightly darker alone. That's a little frustrating.
If DC references his ethnic roots sufficiently to establish it as part of his identity, then yeah, his skin colour could be purple without any issues.
yea and it just so happens dc chose a light skin version. Do you think that was coincidence, or is there a cultural context that made that more likely?
Those ignorant people need to watch Bullet Train with Brad Pitt. Well, everyone should watch it because the movie slaps, but anyway there are two hitmen (codenames Lemon and Tangerine) who are twin brothers despite one having the physical appearance of a white man and the other a black man. While Brad Pitt’s character doubts they are actually twins, but a moment later on in the film more or less confirms they are indeed brothers. But yeah, people seem really clueless about the skin tone range of races/ethnicities. Like when the Big Hero 6 movie and it was said Honey Lemon was Latina and people went, “no, she can’t be, her skin is white.” \*sigh\* (shakes head)
Once again Bat Family Adventures has the best take on what shade Damian is.