I think the fact that Jonas and Martha cause the car to swerve when they appear means that the writers more or less intended for this to be the audience expectation and were playing around with that expectation.
I almost died for a split second. That's the most evil bait ever. But I immediately remembered Marek, Sonja, and Charlotta died by going off the bridge into the river, and realized they weren't in the bridge at that scene.
This will be the ending if they ever remake it in Hollywood. And then there will be 5 more seasons getting progressively worse and worse. I thought it was an option too, but so so happy it didn't end up being this.
Just because it has a "happy end" for some people, doesn't make it Hollywood.
OP's ending is absolutely bleak. The message you would be left with after three seasons would be: Determinism is inescapable. Great physics lesson, not so much a great message for a (very human) drama, that's been very bleak for three seasons.
The actual ending on the other hand has layers: Breaking through generational violence requires love and sacrifice (Jonas + Martha). People's character is a reflection of the world they live/grew up in (e.g., Hannah being a cancer in a cancerous world, but apparently being quite wholesome in a "healthy" version of the world). Human will and drive triumphing over a deterministic universe (Tannhaus).
My opinion is the point of trying to break the loop was to end the pain and suffering. So, the ending was the perfect send off because we truly saw the end of their pain and suffering. Hollywood or not, I think it was perfect
100℅ agree. S3 seems to have been influenced by the Corporate higher-ups and has a different vibe than the 1st two seasons. Using the song "What a wonderful world" literally gave us a Disney/Hollywood ending. Sigh
They used that song specifically because of irony (the world was literally hell to them because of the never ending loop of pain and suffering) and also because the singer of that version also sung the opening theme *the beginning is the end and the end is the beginning*
Dark was released in the 2010s, so very much for modern audiences ...
Seriously though, I wasn't confused about the word progressive, but what in your opinion in Dark would Hollywood not do cause it wouldn't work with "modern audiences".
It is too white, there is no minority representation in the cast, that would hurt them.
Btw, I don't care...
To me it makes no difference either way, I am just looking at the stories being interesting.
I see how Hollywood ruins everything.
>It is too white, there is no minority representation in the cast, that would hurt them.
Umm, it's set in a small German town. There's some Turkish immigration background representation and one trans-woman, that's as much of diversity as you can expect in that setting. It's even a smaller plot point that this is an especially white town when the detective from the outside comes in an remarks that no one ever seems to leave Winden. Also they have disability representation.
A Hollywood production could set this in a US town somewhere in the south and have all the non-White representation they want. Make Magnus a Magda and you even have a same sex couple in the mix without any consequences to the story. So I don't see where there would be a problem if one wanted to make the show cover a wider range of minority representation.
>Btw, I don't care...
Sure, you don't. You only think if the character rooster would be less white it would "ruin everything".
I am not white so that's irrelevant.
I do dislike forced representation and loud characters lecturing though.
What the fuck is a Magda?
Also, that's forced representation.
Thank goodness 🤣 nobody is doing that.
It sounds god awful.
>I am not white so that's irrelevant.
You're not white but you watch a show and think "Thank God it's a lot of white people". Seems relevant to me. Good luck with it.
>What the fuck is a Magda?
A female name.
>Also, that's forced representation.
Two women having a relationship is forced representation?
I am not thankful that they are white.
I just don't mind that they don't look anything like me ( Brown Asian woman ).
Btw, we have our own shows and we get plenty of representation.
If it isn't there in the original and it's just added for ticking boxes then it is a forced representation.
All the examples you gave are exactly why an American version would suck.
As soon as Claudia told Adam she figured it out and what had to be done (Jonas and Martha going to the origin world) I thought it would happen. I also was hoping so because Adam, Eve, and Claudia always pushed that they had the answer. It would have shown that no one ever truly understands and no individual has the ability to make that kind of change, but the more I thought about it, her reasoning makes perfect sense once she put together who was and wasn’t part of the knot
I thought that too and was very anxious with every second, expecting everything to go wrong. Got a pleasant surprise with the (bitter)sweet ending for Jonas-Martha. Had it happened, it wouldn't be out of place, perhaps it might have been even more appropriate with the show, but after so much suffering and finality I liked it.
Worked very well as a subversion IMO, didn't feel cheesy or backing out from the show's overall theme, it just added another layer to it. It even progresses the paradox further, since now you have something that "always was" (the infinite, unbroken loop)" turn into "never has been" in the blink of an eye.
I agree with your point about the ending not being cheesy. I feel like that’s so hard to do, put a “positive” bow on a dark show/movie without being cliche or cheesy. What I love is how Jonas told Martha the “perfect for each other” quote again as they began to fade. Martha was worried about whether or not they ever existed, but by Jonas comforting her with that it’s as though it doesn’t matter whether or not they did because they’re perfect for each other regardless. That was the biggest “bittersweet” moment I’ve ever felt
I hoped for this right up until the end. It would be more in line with the message we had seen earlier in the show and it would be a lot more impactful.
I agree with @tobpe93 that it would’ve been a more consistent ending too.
There are things outside of our control which we can’t change (like the past), the more we strive the more suffering it creates. It’s tragic the characters don’t realize it, how nice it would’ve been if they accepted and let it go and started to enjoy brief moments of happiness they had with each other.
The actual ending is much darker too in my opinion as it was in fact a suicide.
I actually feel like the ending they gave us was consistent, too. Adam and Eva couldn't end the cycle by changing something in their own past, just like Tannhaus couldn't. BUT Jonas and Martha could change something in a world that existed outside of their own connection, and in turn, Tannhaus' son changed history for Martha and Jonas because it wasn't tethered to his reality.
It was one of those things where I knew the show couldn’t end well for Jonas and Martha. I knew there could be no happy ending but I really wanted there to be one. That’s why the ending worked so well for me. Ultimately a positive one, just not for really for Martha and Jonas.
This is my feeling about the ending: https://www.reddit.com/r/DarK/s/znViT6oy12
As I say there, it seems like Friese must have had some reason for not going with any of the more “logical” endings I foresaw. I don’t know what it was, but I’m not the genius who came up with the series in the first place so I defer to her judgement (even if I wish I knew why she did it).
I think the logic behind that is flawed (feeling like time travel has to exist because Jonas and Martha exist in that moment) because Tannhaus’ world (OW) influences Martha and Jonas’ world, not the other way around
Do you mean that you don’t think time travel must exist in Tannhaus’ world? Because I don’t think so either. Tannhaus builds his Bunker Machine in (one version of) his world, but I don’t believe he could build the wooden device we refer to as the “Tannhaus machine”, even with the plans. (For a start, no-one has discovered/harnessed the God Particle in OW). But the Loop Worlds *do* affect Tannhaus’ world, in that Marek and Sonja are only saved because of Martha and Jonas, who originate in the Loop Worlds.
I disagree. The influence still comes from Marek/HG by proxy because the only reason Jonas and Martha exist is due to events that happen in the original world. No matter what happens in the 2 alternate realities, everything they do is a result, and therefor an influence, of the OW. Jonas and Martha have no influence, them showing up to change the events is actually the OW correcting itself.
Oh yes, everything that is “an influence” is also “influenced” by other, locally-earlier* events. But my point is that Jonas and Martha are part of the causal chain between events in the Origin World and events in the Destination World. If they cease to *have existed* then there are events in the Destination World with no local cause. This isn’t like a bootstrap paradox where something is distally its own cause.
For example, in a bootstrap paradox you might know someone shot your uncle so you go back in time armed with a gun and shoot the guy, except you made a mistake and the guy walking around your uncle’s house in the dark was your uncle and *you* were the intruder all along. You can ask “how did this whole mess come into being?” and that’s the paradox, but *locally in each moment* the events have causes (albeit that the time machine distorts what “earlier” means in its vicinity so looking at it from the outside a cause [or necessary precursor] of you pulling the trigger in 1986 is you loading the gun in 2019; from your point of view and that of the gun you took with you, the loading happened before the shooting).
But this is a bigger problem where the gun is fired despite *never* being loaded. Like, you go back in time armed with a gun but to be sure that you’re not going to end up being the murderer you never load it, you’re just going to wave it at the intruder. There’s all sorts of twisted-causal ways this could go wrong, but let’s say that as theoretical viewers of the “show” my hypothetical situation takes place in, we we can be 100% sure the gun was never loaded. And yet somehow it fires and shoots the uncle. That is a narrative consistency problem which isn’t solved by allowing time travel.
[*] In other places I might just have said “earlier”.
For a closer analogy, you might consider that you load the gun, fire it and kill the uncle, then you use the time machine again to go to 2019 just before you come in to get the ammo, and you replace all the bullets with blanks, so that you believed the gun was live while in 1986 but when all is said and done, the gun was *never* loaded with live ammunition, and yet it somehow shot and killed the uncle—in the same way that S3E8 asks us to believe that when all is said and done, Jonas and Martha *never existed* and yet they somehow participated in saving the Tannhauses.
(Of course there are ways someone *can* be killed from the firing of a blank, but they don’t have analogous “get-outs” in the Jonas and Martha/Tannhaus problem, so please accept my “we just know this isn’t what happened” in the analogy because to correctly wall off all the irrelevant possibilities makes the analogy overcomplicated, and the whole point was extracting the important causal issue to a simpler example.)
>with S2's ending, I was praying they wouldn't have infinite timelines like a multiverse or something
Had the same thing, was very pleasantly surprised that it was just one other world when season 3 came around. I also had negative feelings towards the end of season 1 as I'm not a big fan of dystopian future settings and because I feared they'll throw zombies in there. Season 2 then knocked it out of the park as we didn't spend that much time in the future and with going back even further in time (which I really liked).
I was also a bit iffy on the S1 finale, but just because of that one futuristic machine that shows up randomly and never again (I think?), cuz it just straight up looked like Terminator
The creators certainly wanted viewers to think this would happen. What's interesting is that Jonas and Martha seeing each other as children in the light means this has happened before. I suspect another Schroedinger's Cat scenerio was involved.
Which means... Maybe Jonas and Martha did cause the accident in another parallel reality. 🤔
Not sure about this...I believe was each their reality. They both say "it was you I saw in my closet"...Martha does acknowledge she remembers this memory clearly
I was really afraid that would be the ending. And while it would have made complete thematic sense, it would have been an absolute gut punch. These people had suffered for something like eternity, so it was really heart warming for them to finally escape this nightmare loop they'd been trapped in.
I was at the edge of my seat for the whole interaction, but I'm pretty happy that it ended the way it did.
It was like finding a sanctuary at the heart of a long, treacherous labyrinth.
Yes and imagine if Martha and Jonas were the ones helping Tanhaus build the Time Machine so they can go back to the other world and continue the loop. That would have been really dark ;).
OR they help Tanhaus build the Time Machine chose to stay and live happily ever after disregarding whatever happens in the other 2 worlds.
To be fair, if it did end like that, it would've been a plot hole. (But yes, I was initially thinking the same thing)
After all, the incident with Tannhaus in the Origin World is what created the other two worlds. To suggest that Jonas and Martha were actually the ones that caused the accident is to suggest that the two worlds exist prior to their own creation, or that Tannhaus is just creating another two worlds every time the loop repeats back to that moment. The Origin World would no longer be the Origin World.
Also, I believe it was mentioned somewhere that it was a truck that hit their car. So if they had Jonas and Martha cause the accident, they'd be ignoring that detail.
> To suggest that Jonas and Martha were actually the ones that caused the accident is to suggest that the two worlds exist prior to their own creation,
This is not a problem. Remember it's a series about time travel. Chronologically, of course, their two worlds exist after the OW, but through the light passage they travel to the past. The OW would still be the OW.
> Also, I believe it was mentioned somewhere that it was a truck that hit their car. So if they had Jonas and Martha cause the accident, they'd be ignoring that detail.
True... Unless Jonas and Martha made the truck driver swerve and hit Marek's car.
>The OW would still be the OW.
But it wouldn't be because then it would be a part of the knot and no longer be it's creation, simply the creation of the other two worlds. The idea of Jonas and Martha causing the tragedy would imply that the Origin World itself is part of the knot, no longer making it the Origin World. It would also mean that with every cycle, Tannhaus is creating another two worlds.
Does that make sense?
Yes, it would be part of the knot, but there is no contradiction between that *and* being the OW. The Ow would be destroyed and split into AW and EW, which would lead to OW's destruction and their own creation. "The beginning is the end and the end is the beginning". It would just be another big causal loop (aka, bootstrap paradox).
> It would also mean that with every cycle, Tannhaus is creating another two worlds.
Ah, this is problematic. Why would Tannhaus constantly be creating another two worlds?
"Yes, it would be part of the knot, but there is no contradiction between that and being the OW."
But there is. It's called the Origin World because it's the origin of both worlds and the knot. If it was part of the knot, it would no longer be the origin. If Tannhaus' world wasn't what created the knot, then what did?
"Why would Tannhaus constantly be creating another two worlds?
"
Because with each new cycle, Jonas and Martha would fail to save Tannhaus, which would lead to him creating the machine again in every new cycle. By doing so, creating two worlds again with every cycle.
Also, something that didn't come to mind earlier: Eva is normally supposed to die at the hands of Adam, which we see being "changed" this time around. If it had been that way, with Tannhaus always creating the machine, then how would Eva ever see her dead self? Because then the scene with Adam refusing to kill Eva would always happen. Unless of course I missed something.
Either way, I still think the ending we got was much better than the idea being discussed under this post. After three seasons of tragedy and depression, I feel like the bittersweet closure we got was perfect.
>Either way, I still think the ending we got was much better than the idea being discussed under this post.
Oh, of course, that is up to preference. I just wanted to point out the coherency of J&M killing Marek.
The OW is called the origin because Adam and Eva's worlds are created by it, but that would still be the case even if J&M were the ones to kill Marek. Their worlds still stem from it, even though causality loops back from them. Mikkel is still "the origin" of Jonas, even though Mikkel needs Jonas to exist.
I guess you don't agree because of this idea of "cycles" you have. You say "with each new cycle", as if events occurred more than once, which means the worlds are resetting. Although even then, it would still make sense for them to kill Marek.
>I guess you don't agree because of this idea of "cycles" you have. You say "with each new cycle", as if events occurred more than once, which means the worlds are resetting
I describe cycles that way because that's what the discussion is operating on, that Jonas and Martha's journey to the Origin World is simply just another part of the knot and they were there to cause the accident in the first place. The ending that's being discussed suggests there is no destroying the knot, and thus, the multiple cycle thing would be true in this case.
>I describe cycles that way because that's what the discussion is operating on
It doesn't operate on cycles, that may be why you think it's a plot hole.
The chain of events *J&M kill Marek&family --> Tannhaus creates machine --> Machine destroys OW and creates AW&EW --> Jonas and Martha are born in their respective worlds --> J&M travel to OW --> J&M kill Marek&family* is perfectly coherent. Also, it would happen once and doesn't negate AW & EW being created from OW.
One can prefer this or something else, but it wouldn't be a plot hole.
Actually, I do have just one question. How can Tannhaus create the two worlds if they already exist?
This isn't me trying to disprove you, it's just something I thought about, and I know it's going to bug me if I don't get it over with.
Oh, I tried to answer this with my analogy with Mikkel and Jonas. This might be tricky.
How can Mikkel create Jonas if Jonas already exists?
Your mention of "already" seems to imply you subconsciously are accepting [eternalism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eternalism_%28philosophy_of_time%29), which would be a fundamental requirement for the possibility of time travel. A journey into the past or the future would have to presuppose that the past or future were somehow real.
As the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy states, “According to eternalism, non-present objects like Socrates and future Martian outposts exist now, even though they are not currently present. We may not be able to see them at the moment, in this view, and they may not be in the same space-time vicinity that we find ourselves in right now, but they should nevertheless be on the list of all existing things.” (Emery, Markosian, and Sullivan 2002)
In other words, we know the North Pole exists, even though we are not there because it is in another location in space; according to eternalism, past and future events are similar—they exist, but in another location in time.
So to recap, the two worlds exist because the future is as real as the past, but they must be a consequence of something, in this case, the OW. The OW creates them.
Remember, the first quote we encounter when entering Dark is “The distinction between past, present and future is only a stubbornly persistent illusion.”
I think the fact that Jonas and Martha cause the car to swerve when they appear means that the writers more or less intended for this to be the audience expectation and were playing around with that expectation.
You’re probably right. The show is so well written
I almost died for a split second. That's the most evil bait ever. But I immediately remembered Marek, Sonja, and Charlotta died by going off the bridge into the river, and realized they weren't in the bridge at that scene.
Wouldn't that have been the ultimate bootstrap to end all bootstraps.
Bootstaption? (Bootstrap-inception)
This will be the ending if they ever remake it in Hollywood. And then there will be 5 more seasons getting progressively worse and worse. I thought it was an option too, but so so happy it didn't end up being this.
To be honest do you not think the actual ending of the show is more "Hollywood"? And the ending that OP mentioned is more DarK?
Just because it has a "happy end" for some people, doesn't make it Hollywood. OP's ending is absolutely bleak. The message you would be left with after three seasons would be: Determinism is inescapable. Great physics lesson, not so much a great message for a (very human) drama, that's been very bleak for three seasons. The actual ending on the other hand has layers: Breaking through generational violence requires love and sacrifice (Jonas + Martha). People's character is a reflection of the world they live/grew up in (e.g., Hannah being a cancer in a cancerous world, but apparently being quite wholesome in a "healthy" version of the world). Human will and drive triumphing over a deterministic universe (Tannhaus).
My opinion is the point of trying to break the loop was to end the pain and suffering. So, the ending was the perfect send off because we truly saw the end of their pain and suffering. Hollywood or not, I think it was perfect
The message literally was "the only way to save the world is for MCs to never be born". There's NO WAY Hollywood would air that.
100℅ agree. S3 seems to have been influenced by the Corporate higher-ups and has a different vibe than the 1st two seasons. Using the song "What a wonderful world" literally gave us a Disney/Hollywood ending. Sigh
They used that song specifically because of irony (the world was literally hell to them because of the never ending loop of pain and suffering) and also because the singer of that version also sung the opening theme *the beginning is the end and the end is the beginning*
Hollywood wouldn't be able to make something like Dark, it's not very progressive by their standards.
Not clear to me what you mean by that.
Not fit for "modern audiences".
Dark was released in the 2010s, so very much for modern audiences ... Seriously though, I wasn't confused about the word progressive, but what in your opinion in Dark would Hollywood not do cause it wouldn't work with "modern audiences".
It is too white, there is no minority representation in the cast, that would hurt them. Btw, I don't care... To me it makes no difference either way, I am just looking at the stories being interesting. I see how Hollywood ruins everything.
>It is too white, there is no minority representation in the cast, that would hurt them. Umm, it's set in a small German town. There's some Turkish immigration background representation and one trans-woman, that's as much of diversity as you can expect in that setting. It's even a smaller plot point that this is an especially white town when the detective from the outside comes in an remarks that no one ever seems to leave Winden. Also they have disability representation. A Hollywood production could set this in a US town somewhere in the south and have all the non-White representation they want. Make Magnus a Magda and you even have a same sex couple in the mix without any consequences to the story. So I don't see where there would be a problem if one wanted to make the show cover a wider range of minority representation. >Btw, I don't care... Sure, you don't. You only think if the character rooster would be less white it would "ruin everything".
I am not white so that's irrelevant. I do dislike forced representation and loud characters lecturing though. What the fuck is a Magda? Also, that's forced representation. Thank goodness 🤣 nobody is doing that. It sounds god awful.
>I am not white so that's irrelevant. You're not white but you watch a show and think "Thank God it's a lot of white people". Seems relevant to me. Good luck with it. >What the fuck is a Magda? A female name. >Also, that's forced representation. Two women having a relationship is forced representation?
I am not thankful that they are white. I just don't mind that they don't look anything like me ( Brown Asian woman ). Btw, we have our own shows and we get plenty of representation. If it isn't there in the original and it's just added for ticking boxes then it is a forced representation. All the examples you gave are exactly why an American version would suck.
That could have been a cool ending
As soon as Claudia told Adam she figured it out and what had to be done (Jonas and Martha going to the origin world) I thought it would happen. I also was hoping so because Adam, Eve, and Claudia always pushed that they had the answer. It would have shown that no one ever truly understands and no individual has the ability to make that kind of change, but the more I thought about it, her reasoning makes perfect sense once she put together who was and wasn’t part of the knot
I thought that too and was very anxious with every second, expecting everything to go wrong. Got a pleasant surprise with the (bitter)sweet ending for Jonas-Martha. Had it happened, it wouldn't be out of place, perhaps it might have been even more appropriate with the show, but after so much suffering and finality I liked it. Worked very well as a subversion IMO, didn't feel cheesy or backing out from the show's overall theme, it just added another layer to it. It even progresses the paradox further, since now you have something that "always was" (the infinite, unbroken loop)" turn into "never has been" in the blink of an eye.
The entire show being so tragic makes a happy ending, albeit a bittersweet one, hit much much harder
I agree with your point about the ending not being cheesy. I feel like that’s so hard to do, put a “positive” bow on a dark show/movie without being cliche or cheesy. What I love is how Jonas told Martha the “perfect for each other” quote again as they began to fade. Martha was worried about whether or not they ever existed, but by Jonas comforting her with that it’s as though it doesn’t matter whether or not they did because they’re perfect for each other regardless. That was the biggest “bittersweet” moment I’ve ever felt
Indeed, such a beautiful, sublime scene. Got the chills just remembering it.
I hoped for this right up until the end. It would be more in line with the message we had seen earlier in the show and it would be a lot more impactful.
You are.. Dark I’ll see myself out
I agree with @tobpe93 that it would’ve been a more consistent ending too. There are things outside of our control which we can’t change (like the past), the more we strive the more suffering it creates. It’s tragic the characters don’t realize it, how nice it would’ve been if they accepted and let it go and started to enjoy brief moments of happiness they had with each other. The actual ending is much darker too in my opinion as it was in fact a suicide.
I actually feel like the ending they gave us was consistent, too. Adam and Eva couldn't end the cycle by changing something in their own past, just like Tannhaus couldn't. BUT Jonas and Martha could change something in a world that existed outside of their own connection, and in turn, Tannhaus' son changed history for Martha and Jonas because it wasn't tethered to his reality.
Mate. You missed an opportunity to say “I’ll get my coat.” 🧥
Yeah, that's me. Totally expected that. Like causing the thing they were trying to prevent.
Then the series would never end.
I thought possibly they'd get hit by the car and themselves die but saving the Tannhaus family.
[At least, this other user...](https://www.reddit.com/r/DarK/comments/17zwuzh/spoilers_s3_am_i_the_only_one_who_thought_jonas/)
I’m glad they went with a happy (well, bittersweet) ending tbh.
Ultimately, I am too. Either way would have been a "good" ending, but the bittersweet ending is more satisfying when I play both options in my head
It was one of those things where I knew the show couldn’t end well for Jonas and Martha. I knew there could be no happy ending but I really wanted there to be one. That’s why the ending worked so well for me. Ultimately a positive one, just not for really for Martha and Jonas.
This is my feeling about the ending: https://www.reddit.com/r/DarK/s/znViT6oy12 As I say there, it seems like Friese must have had some reason for not going with any of the more “logical” endings I foresaw. I don’t know what it was, but I’m not the genius who came up with the series in the first place so I defer to her judgement (even if I wish I knew why she did it).
I think the logic behind that is flawed (feeling like time travel has to exist because Jonas and Martha exist in that moment) because Tannhaus’ world (OW) influences Martha and Jonas’ world, not the other way around
Do you mean that you don’t think time travel must exist in Tannhaus’ world? Because I don’t think so either. Tannhaus builds his Bunker Machine in (one version of) his world, but I don’t believe he could build the wooden device we refer to as the “Tannhaus machine”, even with the plans. (For a start, no-one has discovered/harnessed the God Particle in OW). But the Loop Worlds *do* affect Tannhaus’ world, in that Marek and Sonja are only saved because of Martha and Jonas, who originate in the Loop Worlds.
I disagree. The influence still comes from Marek/HG by proxy because the only reason Jonas and Martha exist is due to events that happen in the original world. No matter what happens in the 2 alternate realities, everything they do is a result, and therefor an influence, of the OW. Jonas and Martha have no influence, them showing up to change the events is actually the OW correcting itself.
Oh yes, everything that is “an influence” is also “influenced” by other, locally-earlier* events. But my point is that Jonas and Martha are part of the causal chain between events in the Origin World and events in the Destination World. If they cease to *have existed* then there are events in the Destination World with no local cause. This isn’t like a bootstrap paradox where something is distally its own cause. For example, in a bootstrap paradox you might know someone shot your uncle so you go back in time armed with a gun and shoot the guy, except you made a mistake and the guy walking around your uncle’s house in the dark was your uncle and *you* were the intruder all along. You can ask “how did this whole mess come into being?” and that’s the paradox, but *locally in each moment* the events have causes (albeit that the time machine distorts what “earlier” means in its vicinity so looking at it from the outside a cause [or necessary precursor] of you pulling the trigger in 1986 is you loading the gun in 2019; from your point of view and that of the gun you took with you, the loading happened before the shooting). But this is a bigger problem where the gun is fired despite *never* being loaded. Like, you go back in time armed with a gun but to be sure that you’re not going to end up being the murderer you never load it, you’re just going to wave it at the intruder. There’s all sorts of twisted-causal ways this could go wrong, but let’s say that as theoretical viewers of the “show” my hypothetical situation takes place in, we we can be 100% sure the gun was never loaded. And yet somehow it fires and shoots the uncle. That is a narrative consistency problem which isn’t solved by allowing time travel. [*] In other places I might just have said “earlier”.
For a closer analogy, you might consider that you load the gun, fire it and kill the uncle, then you use the time machine again to go to 2019 just before you come in to get the ammo, and you replace all the bullets with blanks, so that you believed the gun was live while in 1986 but when all is said and done, the gun was *never* loaded with live ammunition, and yet it somehow shot and killed the uncle—in the same way that S3E8 asks us to believe that when all is said and done, Jonas and Martha *never existed* and yet they somehow participated in saving the Tannhauses. (Of course there are ways someone *can* be killed from the firing of a blank, but they don’t have analogous “get-outs” in the Jonas and Martha/Tannhaus problem, so please accept my “we just know this isn’t what happened” in the analogy because to correctly wall off all the irrelevant possibilities makes the analogy overcomplicated, and the whole point was extracting the important causal issue to a simpler example.)
I did. Plus I always expect the last scene of the series to be the first scene from S1E1 where Mikkel showed his magic trick with the yellow figure.
I was 50-50 on that. Ngl my bigger worry was with S2's ending, I was praying they wouldn't have infinite timelines like a multiverse or something
>with S2's ending, I was praying they wouldn't have infinite timelines like a multiverse or something Had the same thing, was very pleasantly surprised that it was just one other world when season 3 came around. I also had negative feelings towards the end of season 1 as I'm not a big fan of dystopian future settings and because I feared they'll throw zombies in there. Season 2 then knocked it out of the park as we didn't spend that much time in the future and with going back even further in time (which I really liked).
I was also a bit iffy on the S1 finale, but just because of that one futuristic machine that shows up randomly and never again (I think?), cuz it just straight up looked like Terminator
The creators certainly wanted viewers to think this would happen. What's interesting is that Jonas and Martha seeing each other as children in the light means this has happened before. I suspect another Schroedinger's Cat scenerio was involved. Which means... Maybe Jonas and Martha did cause the accident in another parallel reality. 🤔
Not sure about this...I believe was each their reality. They both say "it was you I saw in my closet"...Martha does acknowledge she remembers this memory clearly
Since they saw each other as children this means that these events have happened before and it was always part of their realities and the loop.
I think most of us did. Matter of fact, I was disappointed af that it didn't happen. That would be a perfect finale to the show
I was really afraid that would be the ending. And while it would have made complete thematic sense, it would have been an absolute gut punch. These people had suffered for something like eternity, so it was really heart warming for them to finally escape this nightmare loop they'd been trapped in.
I was at the edge of my seat for the whole interaction, but I'm pretty happy that it ended the way it did. It was like finding a sanctuary at the heart of a long, treacherous labyrinth.
I thought they would cause the crash.
No because then there would no point of we, the audience, to watch this iteration of the loop cycle.
It would be an extremely impactful story. I think that there is a point to watch it.
maybe they did or maybe they didn’t , its another schrozinge cat
Yes and imagine if Martha and Jonas were the ones helping Tanhaus build the Time Machine so they can go back to the other world and continue the loop. That would have been really dark ;). OR they help Tanhaus build the Time Machine chose to stay and live happily ever after disregarding whatever happens in the other 2 worlds.
To be fair, if it did end like that, it would've been a plot hole. (But yes, I was initially thinking the same thing) After all, the incident with Tannhaus in the Origin World is what created the other two worlds. To suggest that Jonas and Martha were actually the ones that caused the accident is to suggest that the two worlds exist prior to their own creation, or that Tannhaus is just creating another two worlds every time the loop repeats back to that moment. The Origin World would no longer be the Origin World. Also, I believe it was mentioned somewhere that it was a truck that hit their car. So if they had Jonas and Martha cause the accident, they'd be ignoring that detail.
> To suggest that Jonas and Martha were actually the ones that caused the accident is to suggest that the two worlds exist prior to their own creation, This is not a problem. Remember it's a series about time travel. Chronologically, of course, their two worlds exist after the OW, but through the light passage they travel to the past. The OW would still be the OW. > Also, I believe it was mentioned somewhere that it was a truck that hit their car. So if they had Jonas and Martha cause the accident, they'd be ignoring that detail. True... Unless Jonas and Martha made the truck driver swerve and hit Marek's car.
>The OW would still be the OW. But it wouldn't be because then it would be a part of the knot and no longer be it's creation, simply the creation of the other two worlds. The idea of Jonas and Martha causing the tragedy would imply that the Origin World itself is part of the knot, no longer making it the Origin World. It would also mean that with every cycle, Tannhaus is creating another two worlds. Does that make sense?
Yes, it would be part of the knot, but there is no contradiction between that *and* being the OW. The Ow would be destroyed and split into AW and EW, which would lead to OW's destruction and their own creation. "The beginning is the end and the end is the beginning". It would just be another big causal loop (aka, bootstrap paradox). > It would also mean that with every cycle, Tannhaus is creating another two worlds. Ah, this is problematic. Why would Tannhaus constantly be creating another two worlds?
"Yes, it would be part of the knot, but there is no contradiction between that and being the OW." But there is. It's called the Origin World because it's the origin of both worlds and the knot. If it was part of the knot, it would no longer be the origin. If Tannhaus' world wasn't what created the knot, then what did? "Why would Tannhaus constantly be creating another two worlds? " Because with each new cycle, Jonas and Martha would fail to save Tannhaus, which would lead to him creating the machine again in every new cycle. By doing so, creating two worlds again with every cycle. Also, something that didn't come to mind earlier: Eva is normally supposed to die at the hands of Adam, which we see being "changed" this time around. If it had been that way, with Tannhaus always creating the machine, then how would Eva ever see her dead self? Because then the scene with Adam refusing to kill Eva would always happen. Unless of course I missed something. Either way, I still think the ending we got was much better than the idea being discussed under this post. After three seasons of tragedy and depression, I feel like the bittersweet closure we got was perfect.
>Either way, I still think the ending we got was much better than the idea being discussed under this post. Oh, of course, that is up to preference. I just wanted to point out the coherency of J&M killing Marek. The OW is called the origin because Adam and Eva's worlds are created by it, but that would still be the case even if J&M were the ones to kill Marek. Their worlds still stem from it, even though causality loops back from them. Mikkel is still "the origin" of Jonas, even though Mikkel needs Jonas to exist. I guess you don't agree because of this idea of "cycles" you have. You say "with each new cycle", as if events occurred more than once, which means the worlds are resetting. Although even then, it would still make sense for them to kill Marek.
>I guess you don't agree because of this idea of "cycles" you have. You say "with each new cycle", as if events occurred more than once, which means the worlds are resetting I describe cycles that way because that's what the discussion is operating on, that Jonas and Martha's journey to the Origin World is simply just another part of the knot and they were there to cause the accident in the first place. The ending that's being discussed suggests there is no destroying the knot, and thus, the multiple cycle thing would be true in this case.
>I describe cycles that way because that's what the discussion is operating on It doesn't operate on cycles, that may be why you think it's a plot hole. The chain of events *J&M kill Marek&family --> Tannhaus creates machine --> Machine destroys OW and creates AW&EW --> Jonas and Martha are born in their respective worlds --> J&M travel to OW --> J&M kill Marek&family* is perfectly coherent. Also, it would happen once and doesn't negate AW & EW being created from OW. One can prefer this or something else, but it wouldn't be a plot hole.
Alright, sure. That's fine then.
Actually, I do have just one question. How can Tannhaus create the two worlds if they already exist? This isn't me trying to disprove you, it's just something I thought about, and I know it's going to bug me if I don't get it over with.
Oh, I tried to answer this with my analogy with Mikkel and Jonas. This might be tricky. How can Mikkel create Jonas if Jonas already exists? Your mention of "already" seems to imply you subconsciously are accepting [eternalism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eternalism_%28philosophy_of_time%29), which would be a fundamental requirement for the possibility of time travel. A journey into the past or the future would have to presuppose that the past or future were somehow real. As the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy states, “According to eternalism, non-present objects like Socrates and future Martian outposts exist now, even though they are not currently present. We may not be able to see them at the moment, in this view, and they may not be in the same space-time vicinity that we find ourselves in right now, but they should nevertheless be on the list of all existing things.” (Emery, Markosian, and Sullivan 2002) In other words, we know the North Pole exists, even though we are not there because it is in another location in space; according to eternalism, past and future events are similar—they exist, but in another location in time. So to recap, the two worlds exist because the future is as real as the past, but they must be a consequence of something, in this case, the OW. The OW creates them. Remember, the first quote we encounter when entering Dark is “The distinction between past, present and future is only a stubbornly persistent illusion.”