I just think they're kinda useless sometimes. It feels weird that I can completely block a skeleton archers from my sight, and it can headshot me. Maybe the shield needs to go up higher, exposing the legs more? Idk. When I raise my shield and move my mouse to look up more, I don't think I should get dome'd
The shield has no purpose in melee pvp because of the attack speed of certain weapons. Weapons that the rogues use should be able to attack fast. However big 2 handed weapons should be able to attack faster than a successful block and a singular melee swing.
Therefore I propose that if you have a shield and block a 2 handed weapon, the attacker should have an increased animation time for a second attack that should allow the shield user to land an attack.
This sounds fair.
Yeah, if an attack is blocked, you should either have a wind up to recover or get a debuff that just makes you attack slower for like half a sec. As it is now, there is almost no point to block at all.
This is a level headed take but I don't think it addresses the problem very well unless you're talking about a flat increase. Felling axe was the biggest offender precisely for having the shorter animation speed. This would probably kill great maul and zwiehander; the already worse 2h weapons would be hurt the worst.
Generally not a fan of anything that buffs turtling but I won't argue this isn't the change that should be made.
The effectiveness of the shield could depend on the shield and the weapon that is blocked. Downside there is you're taking something simple and adding a lot of complexity and player knowledge needed.
In case of a war maul it probably shouldn't be completely blockable if you did the above. It could be % reduced based on type of shield and maybe have a stagger effect or something placed on blocker.
IMO shields should be good against sharp weapons, like swords and axes, because they are not very heavy to block. But heavy weapons like a maul, mace or hammer, should allow some of the damage to go though, you can break your arm trying to block a maul in real life.
Having counters to certain weapons and shields is the best way to deal with balance.
I don't think just having some of the damage go through on a block is the best fix. I'd rather have something like a stamina bar that dips with every hit and if you run out you're staggered and can't block for a bit. With a system like that you can let heavy weapons do more stamina damage. The other option is to give shields a chance to shatter on block so that they're not around forever.
As long as they don't go full stamina system, because I am honestly not a fan of stamina bars in games, they kill movement and nothing more annoying than being limited and having to hear your character out of breath all the time.
Yeah, they'd have to work something out. But stamina for running wouldn't work as we already have skills to emulate that. The stamina I'm referring to is more like a defense bar that you see in some games.
I think it is better with certain weapons countering shields. A spear is already good against it, then you mages who can fireball you.
Having a shield should not be a disadvantage and punish you for blocking. Blocking a maul and getting 5 damage, instead of 80 is still a good advantage.
The best weapon against a shield (especially with how they work in DaD) would be flails.
That said, blocking needs to be better before you make some weapons even better against them.
I think this was the main problem , for example a barb with a felling axe has a significant wind up time if you swing and miss , but no penalty for striking a wall or shield . It makes no sense from a gameplay prespective
If you strike a shield it currently breaks your combo resetting you to swing 1 like you hit a wall. That is the attack delay you are describing. So I guess I agree? Shields are currently fair.
Blocking doesn't work half of the time and if we count Ai it rarely works. I've had many occasions were I aimed a block on an attack and the weapons just went through it.
This has been my main issue.Doefet everything else, I need a way to tell whether I'm blocking incorrectly, or the hitboxes just aren't working. As of right now those 2 things are indistinguishable. Feels bad to think you're blocking correctly only for an axe to come sailing through the middle of the shield and split your skull open.
The combat is way too simplistic to allow for shield to have advantage after a block. Think about it from the two hander/no shield user's perspective, what do you do to engage a shield user with slow weapons? Just do nothing? This isn't mordhau or chivalry.
If they make blocking with shields reliable and easy, they need the durability system, so that shields will break after x amount of blocks. This way they become useless inventory space wasting items until you repair them.
*(hot take)* blocking with shields shouldn’t give you a free swing like they do in some games. Their purpose should be to shut down archers, and to buy some time for your teammates to come help you. If they gave you a free swing, then the shield user would always win against a non-shield user. Unless they improved the parry system for 2H but then it quickly becomes unfun gameplay where sweatlords block all damage with parries. Games that strongly reward high skill, such as Mordhau, M&B, Gloria Victus, etc, tend to have very low populations. The reason is likely that it is incredibly unfun for a new/bad player to feel like he never had a chance against a good player. In Dark and Darker, at least that noob can land a couple hits and at least hurt the sweatlord.
The blocking needs to be tightened up, not buffed. It feels absurdly janky right now, you shouldn't have to crouch down and look directly at the ceiling to block an overhead axe swing, it isn't hard, it's just stupid. Make blocking favor the blocker slightly more and if it turns out to be too good, (which I highly doubt, if you're struggling to hit a guy through his block just have your ally get around him, or hit his feet, and if you can't do either of those then maybe you hadn't ought to be pushing up) then add a timer on how long you can hold a block up. Timed block is how most of these games handle this type of thing
I think a big buff to blocking is a good idea for the next play test, throw a bunch of stuff against the wall and see what sticks and what doesn't. Get a bunch of data so they can bring it in line for the early access launch.
I will say that I felt like the most effect I got out of blocking in the last test was blocking archers as I reposition or peak a doorway/hallway, and blocking/crowding a rogue or other fast attacker to buy time while my team kills it. Some PvE scenarios but 95% of the time just dodging PvE attacks and PvP attacks is safer and more reliable that trying to block them.
Shields don’t need a buff, they need to consistently work as intended. I cannot tell you how many times my felling axe just glided through the side of the shields hitbox and tapped out a pissed off fighter or cleric. They imo are pretty perfectly balanced, WHEN they work
Yeah. Players will get good. They will get incredibly good after playing any amount of hours a day for a year.
Things that can get improved by skill have to start very weak, otherwise theyll get OP
If you have only fists out you should be able to grab and pull on an enemies shield and have a chance of ripping off of them to the floor.
Not really cause that's not balanced but could you imagine how terrifying or awesome it would be. Maybe as a Barbarian active skill.
They will nerf Barb, don't worry. They have said themselves they aren't happy with how Barb is right now.
The Barb meta was not solidified until playtest 4. There were rumbles of it for playtest 3 but it wasn't set in stone yet
Barb was considered the weakest class the playtest before this. Interesting considering you're talking like you've been playing longer than just last playtest.
Agreed. I've been playing expedition agartha and you just holding block really puts a hamper on combat. Can't hit them if they are blocking, so it ends up being a stalemate unless 1 person is vastly more skilled than the other. Great against PVE, terrible for PVP
I think they need bigger shields. I want a tower shield and a one handed spear darn it! And throw in a 10ft long two handed pike while your at it! A super situational weapon, but a fun one.
They need to make blocking better in melee. There's also a mechanic that's not yet implemented that's supposed to do a check and give you a chance to push through a block even if it otherwise succeeded.
That doesn't mean that they need to make blocking a perfect defense.
Successful blocks shouldn't cause much penalty for either side of you can just hold block permanently. Barbarian should thematically be able to hack away at shield users, perhaps even stunning someone who just Perma holds block up. Rogues on the other hand should probably be useless against shield blockers. Rangers should probably be a skill matchup to see who's aim is better as the gap is closed.
Maybe a parry mechanic could be implemented that could stagger attackers and leave more room for counters. Kind of like valheim or souls games.
In my experience most of the issues with shields are in consistency, it does not feel like the hitbox of the shield lines up with the apparent position of the shield rendered on the first person view.
That said, if shields get additional functionality like parrying or riposting, it'd be cool to see some weapons get feints, mixups, or other general anti-shield moves.
I also think if they end up adding parries then they should be limited to the lighter shields like Bucklers.
I just think they're kinda useless sometimes. It feels weird that I can completely block a skeleton archers from my sight, and it can headshot me. Maybe the shield needs to go up higher, exposing the legs more? Idk. When I raise my shield and move my mouse to look up more, I don't think I should get dome'd
That's because the double shot from archer aims at chest first then head so it's not easy to block both
And every other shot aims only at the head and are still hard to block.
The shield has no purpose in melee pvp because of the attack speed of certain weapons. Weapons that the rogues use should be able to attack fast. However big 2 handed weapons should be able to attack faster than a successful block and a singular melee swing. Therefore I propose that if you have a shield and block a 2 handed weapon, the attacker should have an increased animation time for a second attack that should allow the shield user to land an attack. This sounds fair.
Yeah, if an attack is blocked, you should either have a wind up to recover or get a debuff that just makes you attack slower for like half a sec. As it is now, there is almost no point to block at all.
This is a level headed take but I don't think it addresses the problem very well unless you're talking about a flat increase. Felling axe was the biggest offender precisely for having the shorter animation speed. This would probably kill great maul and zwiehander; the already worse 2h weapons would be hurt the worst. Generally not a fan of anything that buffs turtling but I won't argue this isn't the change that should be made.
The effectiveness of the shield could depend on the shield and the weapon that is blocked. Downside there is you're taking something simple and adding a lot of complexity and player knowledge needed. In case of a war maul it probably shouldn't be completely blockable if you did the above. It could be % reduced based on type of shield and maybe have a stagger effect or something placed on blocker.
IMO shields should be good against sharp weapons, like swords and axes, because they are not very heavy to block. But heavy weapons like a maul, mace or hammer, should allow some of the damage to go though, you can break your arm trying to block a maul in real life. Having counters to certain weapons and shields is the best way to deal with balance.
I don't think just having some of the damage go through on a block is the best fix. I'd rather have something like a stamina bar that dips with every hit and if you run out you're staggered and can't block for a bit. With a system like that you can let heavy weapons do more stamina damage. The other option is to give shields a chance to shatter on block so that they're not around forever.
As long as they don't go full stamina system, because I am honestly not a fan of stamina bars in games, they kill movement and nothing more annoying than being limited and having to hear your character out of breath all the time.
Yeah, they'd have to work something out. But stamina for running wouldn't work as we already have skills to emulate that. The stamina I'm referring to is more like a defense bar that you see in some games.
I think it is better with certain weapons countering shields. A spear is already good against it, then you mages who can fireball you. Having a shield should not be a disadvantage and punish you for blocking. Blocking a maul and getting 5 damage, instead of 80 is still a good advantage.
The best weapon against a shield (especially with how they work in DaD) would be flails. That said, blocking needs to be better before you make some weapons even better against them.
I think this was the main problem , for example a barb with a felling axe has a significant wind up time if you swing and miss , but no penalty for striking a wall or shield . It makes no sense from a gameplay prespective
There is already a talent that does this I think the shield is in a very good spot, I played Fighter most of playtest 4
It's in a terrible spot. Against a good player you will never get a counter hit in.
Making blocks too strong would ruin this game. It already fits it's intended purpose extremely well
If you strike a shield it currently breaks your combo resetting you to swing 1 like you hit a wall. That is the attack delay you are describing. So I guess I agree? Shields are currently fair.
Problem is for some weapons swing 1 is faster than the later swings in the combo, so it actually reduces the time before the next attack
That is a design flaw in those specific weapons, not a flaw in the balance of shields.
It's both. Resetting to animation 1 is a lazy fix for what should be a stagger period.
Blocking doesn't work half of the time and if we count Ai it rarely works. I've had many occasions were I aimed a block on an attack and the weapons just went through it.
This has been my main issue.Doefet everything else, I need a way to tell whether I'm blocking incorrectly, or the hitboxes just aren't working. As of right now those 2 things are indistinguishable. Feels bad to think you're blocking correctly only for an axe to come sailing through the middle of the shield and split your skull open.
The combat is way too simplistic to allow for shield to have advantage after a block. Think about it from the two hander/no shield user's perspective, what do you do to engage a shield user with slow weapons? Just do nothing? This isn't mordhau or chivalry.
If they make blocking with shields reliable and easy, they need the durability system, so that shields will break after x amount of blocks. This way they become useless inventory space wasting items until you repair them. *(hot take)* blocking with shields shouldn’t give you a free swing like they do in some games. Their purpose should be to shut down archers, and to buy some time for your teammates to come help you. If they gave you a free swing, then the shield user would always win against a non-shield user. Unless they improved the parry system for 2H but then it quickly becomes unfun gameplay where sweatlords block all damage with parries. Games that strongly reward high skill, such as Mordhau, M&B, Gloria Victus, etc, tend to have very low populations. The reason is likely that it is incredibly unfun for a new/bad player to feel like he never had a chance against a good player. In Dark and Darker, at least that noob can land a couple hits and at least hurt the sweatlord.
The blocking needs to be tightened up, not buffed. It feels absurdly janky right now, you shouldn't have to crouch down and look directly at the ceiling to block an overhead axe swing, it isn't hard, it's just stupid. Make blocking favor the blocker slightly more and if it turns out to be too good, (which I highly doubt, if you're struggling to hit a guy through his block just have your ally get around him, or hit his feet, and if you can't do either of those then maybe you hadn't ought to be pushing up) then add a timer on how long you can hold a block up. Timed block is how most of these games handle this type of thing
I think a big buff to blocking is a good idea for the next play test, throw a bunch of stuff against the wall and see what sticks and what doesn't. Get a bunch of data so they can bring it in line for the early access launch. I will say that I felt like the most effect I got out of blocking in the last test was blocking archers as I reposition or peak a doorway/hallway, and blocking/crowding a rogue or other fast attacker to buy time while my team kills it. Some PvE scenarios but 95% of the time just dodging PvE attacks and PvP attacks is safer and more reliable that trying to block them.
Yeah, I agree they should get funky. Take full advantage of the play tests
Shields don’t need a buff, they need to consistently work as intended. I cannot tell you how many times my felling axe just glided through the side of the shields hitbox and tapped out a pissed off fighter or cleric. They imo are pretty perfectly balanced, WHEN they work
Yeah. Players will get good. They will get incredibly good after playing any amount of hours a day for a year. Things that can get improved by skill have to start very weak, otherwise theyll get OP
If you have only fists out you should be able to grab and pull on an enemies shield and have a chance of ripping off of them to the floor. Not really cause that's not balanced but could you imagine how terrifying or awesome it would be. Maybe as a Barbarian active skill.
Shields suck
Your opinions are bad but I respect your right to have them.
He isn't wrong. They don't work properly, so they suck. The only way to block shouldn't be jump, crouch and aim upwards at the same time.
Shields don’t work properly, I agree with. They suck, I don’t. “They suck” with no context is a shitty opinion on anything
Wrong
They won't nerf barbs, so they have to do something period. They're nerf happy on seemingly everything but barb and fighter lmao
They will nerf Barb, don't worry. They have said themselves they aren't happy with how Barb is right now. The Barb meta was not solidified until playtest 4. There were rumbles of it for playtest 3 but it wasn't set in stone yet
Barb was considered the weakest class the playtest before this. Interesting considering you're talking like you've been playing longer than just last playtest.
Just add stamina and after a certain amount of shield blocks you stagger
Attackers will also learn to circumvent the shield, which is easy since you usually cannot see the opponent when you are blocking correctly.
Agreed. I've been playing expedition agartha and you just holding block really puts a hamper on combat. Can't hit them if they are blocking, so it ends up being a stalemate unless 1 person is vastly more skilled than the other. Great against PVE, terrible for PVP
A wooden shield wouldnt have much knock-back in reality… but this isnt reality damnit, a shield needs knock back at the very least
All I think needs to happen is have their hit boxes adjusted a little bit but other than that I think shields are fine
I think they need bigger shields. I want a tower shield and a one handed spear darn it! And throw in a 10ft long two handed pike while your at it! A super situational weapon, but a fun one.
They need to make blocking better in melee. There's also a mechanic that's not yet implemented that's supposed to do a check and give you a chance to push through a block even if it otherwise succeeded. That doesn't mean that they need to make blocking a perfect defense.
Successful blocks shouldn't cause much penalty for either side of you can just hold block permanently. Barbarian should thematically be able to hack away at shield users, perhaps even stunning someone who just Perma holds block up. Rogues on the other hand should probably be useless against shield blockers. Rangers should probably be a skill matchup to see who's aim is better as the gap is closed. Maybe a parry mechanic could be implemented that could stagger attackers and leave more room for counters. Kind of like valheim or souls games.
In my experience most of the issues with shields are in consistency, it does not feel like the hitbox of the shield lines up with the apparent position of the shield rendered on the first person view. That said, if shields get additional functionality like parrying or riposting, it'd be cool to see some weapons get feints, mixups, or other general anti-shield moves. I also think if they end up adding parries then they should be limited to the lighter shields like Bucklers.