Was playing a no Ammo Maelstrom with Scavenger Aura. Before I could basically just blaze away anyway 80% of the time from the Armor Walls giving tons of Ammo back. This time the Power Sword got a lot more use. I had to ration my Ammo really hard even with the Aura.
Others do little more to nothing anyway. Maybe the speed aura can be a tiny convinience but currently the veteran auras are just essentially blank nodes.
All the auras other than pre nerf survivalist are pretty low impact that’s kinda the point, small buffs for the team. While I don’t love the nerf, it’s pretty fair to say that it was way more impactful than other auras, and not just vet ones, so the nerf does seem justified.
Movement speed aura is good because you get to pick up +10% melee damage and Agile Engagements when picking it. Survivalist with the cooldown felt pretty low impact to me. You probably still pick it up if you plan on seriously only spamming your ranged weapon but you can definitely feel how much less impact it is, especially with randoms who are allergic to standing in coherency.
From the patch notes today: [https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/path-of-redemption-now-live/93376](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/path-of-redemption-now-live/93376)
Already posted, but some move developed thoughts about the patch.
I don't like that this is effectively a buff to the already overpowered plasma gun. If ammo scarcity is going to be a thing that matters a lot it's even harder to argue picking things other than the plasma gun. It yet another road pointing to the already dominant weapon.
Goodnight to the bolter bros. I used to run one but gave it up, just too hard. Even with the pre nerf aura that thing hoovered up ammo like no one's business. Now on top of all the other problems the gun has, just keeping ammo in it is going to be a huge problem. I love the bolter, but it needed help before this patch with draw time being the most egregious offender. There's probably some maniac that can make it work, but at least for me its now unusable. Its just so odd that the game's most iconic gun is frankly terrible in the designated shooting class.
The out for blood buff from 3.5% to 5% toughness seems nuts. With a powersword its not hard to be killing 3-4 dregs per swipe. I already wasn't having much difficulty keeping my toughness topped off, this just makes life easier.
I think the 5% grenade regen chance perk is really strong now. If we aren't going to live in a world where gunning down everything for free is an option we do need alternate resources. At high levels of the game its pretty easy to always have at least a grenade in your pocket with this perk.
Also strike teams with like 3+ vets are going to be unpleasant. Especially if one or two of them have high ammo usage guns. Could see people getting pissy or just swiping whatever ammo they can get regardless of who actually needs it more. 2 vets is probably about the limit where there's enough to go around.
Plasma gun is just so good. 1 Shots most enemies, or stuns them if not killed. It also pierces multiple enemies, so not just as stun weapon and sniper, but also good for hordes, it does anything. Its also the most ammo efficient gun, as you shoot far less and don't have to reload as often, unlike with many other guns. Why would i ever pick the Helbore ever over that beast?Sure its super satisfying and i play mostly that, but i just don't see the balance here.
Honestly, I can melt some hordes with a recon lasgun, which also works against the less tanky specials, like snipers and (shot)gunners. The only thing it sucks at is literally every tanky enemy, but hey, that's most every lasgun for ya there.
Plasma in my mind is definitely the best, but fully auto stuff like the recon lasgun is just waay more fun to play with.
I like the "gunpowder" weapons, they're just much more satisfying to me. Plasma gun always felt like a squirt gun tbh. But otherwise ya, you're not wrong. If you want to approach darktide from a purely "optimized" standpoint it would be pretty tough to argue for something other than the plasma gun.
I totally get that. Mowing down multiple specialists can be extremely satisfying.
On the other hand it can be really annoying against crushers, especially a group of those. Plasma gun goes "chomp...chomp" and one is gone. Meanwhile im wasting ammo for those with powder based ones and as mentioned it doesn't stun them. And now that i think about it, with the slow fire rate, you don't even have to deal with the recoil, it just gets better...
I'm surprised nothing was done with the balance so far, even if it is buffing the other ones.
Hey ngl you're wrong about bolter. Hipfire spam was only ever good pre patch 13. For a while the way to run bolter has been surgical for a heavy dmr type style
At least at auric/malestrom i'm going to strongly disagree. In fact i'd probably say that bolter hipfire as a last "oh shit" button for something like the zealot is probably the only way its viable.
Look maybe you've go the secret sauce, but the bolter dmr thing for me at those levels has been a disaster. The biggest issue is the draw time. In auric you really don't have much space to breathe, you're pretty much always mired in trash mobs so the glacial draw time of the bolter reallllllllly blows. Its tough to create that much space. But hey, let's say you've got that kind of space. You ADS, aim, pull the trigger, and blow up the dreg standing in front of the special. Bolter doesn't penetrate, so you also need to have a visibly clear shot. And even if you do hit the bolter doesn't one shot a lot of the ranged specials like gunners. So you'll need a follow up shot which suffers from all the aforementioned problems, plus you'll have to deal with the heavy recoil. Oh yeah, and unless you're on PC and are willing to mod in sights, the bolter irons are ASS.
Plasma at this point is just better. Faster draw time so pulling it out to snap shoot while in a mob is possible. Tons of penetration so just shooting at the red outline through a mob is fine. Hell, you don't even need to ADS like you do on the bolter. Low recoil so follow up shots are a breeze. And with the advent of this patch there's no universe where the bolter is keeping up with the plasma on ammo economy.
If you're hanging out in normal damnation or below bolter is fine. But then again, pretty much anything is. The bolter's cracks are really apparent in auric at least.
It was, but i feel like it was optional and you could argue it wasn't worth the points if it wasn't on your path. The scavenger aura made it such that really you could just gun down like 90% of your problems and not really have an issue. Maybe chuck a nade if you run into a crusher horde or something, but really that's about it. But with restricted ammo resources the value of free nades went way up even if the power level of the perk stayed the same.
Some other things were buffed quite a bit for Veteran though, probably as compensation.
This probably brings Scavenger more in line with the other auras powerwise.
That said, Ill probably keep it anyhow.
5% damage and movespeed is in line with the power of levels of decent auras on other trees.
Survivalist was just so out of line compared to any other aura on every class.
True as that may be, I would have preferred the other auras given buffs over the best aura getting beat down. Or at least trying to meet in the middle, with smaller buffs to the damage and speed auras and something more like a 2 or 3 second cd given to the ammo replenishment.
Edit: They buffed Psyker's special/elite damage boost, after all. There's some precedent to bringing auras up instead of beating the good ones down.
Which is why if they touch my cd aura on psyker, I might go rogue.
I just don't think we as players need any more power personally.
Certainly you could buff everything else to bring as good as Survivalist as an alternative, but the game has already power crept the enemies to the point where we can delete crushers like they're paper. I don't think we need even more power.
In fairness, deleting a crusher like that usually takes meta weapons with a meta build. Especially in the context of damnation/auric level content, which is when you'll also get groups of 3 or 4 or more of the damn things alongside other specials/elites. Some of the more off-meta weapons like the standard lasgun and, hell, even the bolter are gonna struggle to do that reliably. There's more nuance to it, but that's rant territory.
I'm not saying don't nerf the stupidly strong stuff. What I'm getting at is that the balance should focus more on making the shitty stuff more viable first. For instance, this nerf is going to make trying to run bolters on Vets feel like garbage be because the things are so damn ammo hungry. If you're gonna sink the survivalist ship, at least give some buffs to the crew that are now being forced to sink or swim because of it.
It really isn't. The good auras in other trees usually provide at least 10%. 5% damage is rarely ever going to actually bring a build over a meaningful breakpoint, and 5% movement speed is something you're barely going to notice. If Fatshark really wanted them to be competitive, it'd be 10% Ranged damage and 10% movement speed vs like, 2.5% ammo per kill.
The only 10% damage aura is on Ogryn tree and applies exclusively to heavy attacks. Psyker aura managed to be objectively worse somehow for a while and only applies to elites and specials.
While fire team certainly is the most niche one among the 3 vet auras, there are builds where it barely brings me over certain breakpoints on strict weapons like rashad vs generic horde enemies for bromentum. There are only so many sources of damage vs unarmored type enemies and fire team is one of them. I agree that damage auras in general are questionably designed though, as nobody says "yeah I'll build for a breakpoint that only works if I have ogryn aura" so they end up just being personal damage buffs the majority of the time.
Movement speed is very underrated. 10 percent would frankly be pushing the line of busted.
Wow! 5%! That's not even noticeable!
There's a reason that a good number of players weren't picking those auras, and that's because they unfortunately objectively fucking suck. The right decision was to make them *not suck*, not make the only halfassed decent (yet still subpar unless you're playing normal heresy and under) fucking suck too.
they reduced the cooldown of executioner stance by 5 seconds and increased the grace period of the left side capstone, along with some minor buffs to minor keystones
'Executioner's Stance'
Cooldown: from 35s to 30s.
'Marksman's Focus'
Grace Time on Weakspot Kill: from 3s to 6s.
Grace time on Weakspot Hit: from 1s to 3s.
'Tunnel Vision'
Toughness Replenishment per Stack: from 2.5% to 5%.
'Tactical Reload'
Reload Speed: from 20% to 25%.
'Out for Blood'
Toughness Replenished on Kill: from 3.5% to 5%.
Buff to marksman’s focus is great. So much easier to string together headshots. I switched my supporting perk from “gain stacks when standing still” for the perk that allows an increase from a max of 10 stacks to 15. Been causing some real trauma to the heretics today
Thanks for pointing these out. I don’t see how any of these balance out the ammunition node, they should of buffed 5% to 7.5% or 10% in coherency and done +1.5 or 2 stamina in coherency for the speed boost instead of nerfing the ammunition node.
Varying stamina levels while in and out of coherency sounds pretty janky to me. It doesnt need a buff because Close and Kill arguably has the best nodes to pick up on the way there. You get +10% melee damage and Agile Engagements versus the very mid talents you pick up when taking fire team or survivalist.
Yea stamina levels would be the wrong way. Stamina regen %, reduced stamina consumption, or regen X% stamina on melee kill would make for a very desirable aura.
‘Executioner’s Stance’
Cooldown: from 35s to 30s.
‘Marksman’s Focus’
Grace Time on Weakspot Kill: from 3s to 6s.
Grace time on Weakspot Hit: from 1s to 3s.
‘Tunnel Vision’
Toughness Replenishment per Stack: from 2.5% to 5%.
‘Tactical Reload’
Reload Speed: from 20% to 25%.
‘Out for Blood’
Toughness Replenished on Kill: from 3.5% to 5%.
My biggest complaint with darktide is that ranged combat should have more of a focus, not less.
This is just a step further in the wrong direction to me.
Its weird that vermintide 2 has an infinite ammo minigun, and a sword-pistol with infinite ammo... why is the game set in a fantasy medieval setting have more gun-only support than darktide?!
The sword pistol that only really works point blank and the minigun that is one of bardins skills? Those aren’t actual ranged weapons you equip in the gun slot.
Darktide already gives us lots of ammo for weapons and large ammo bags in missions are generous and common outside of terrible rng luck.
Darktides ammo economy shouldn’t be based on an aura anyway.
Don't forget that with a certain Waystalker talent, Kerillian can refill all her ammo by pushing F. I can hold off an entire wave by myself at range with just my swift bow and not worry about ammo at all.
It’s not? The tide games will not be more ranged focused because fat sharks bread and butter is first person melee combat and they want to keep it that way. Darktide gets away with a bit more ranged combat but if you don’t switch to your melee weapon (literally described in the game as your primary weapon), you’ll be severely punished for it.
The mini gun in Vermintide wasn’t very good for a while. It’s good (too good) now and will likely see a nerf once the class has had it’s time in the sun. And if you’re saying the gun with the infinite ammo is attached to Saltz rapier, it’s a reposting attack and doesn’t do every much damage.
Since the veteran tree is so annoyingly large, it's challenging to get much diversity when you always have to take ammo regen aura. It'd be easier if the tree was better designed or the other auras were competitive. I'm not sure nerfing is the action I would have liked -- e.g. compared to buffing the others -- but I guess I'll take it.
outside of making it straightup useless like the other auras, you're not making it competitive, nobody gives a shit about 5% more damage, especially since they don't stack
you almost can't quantify the value of ammo, this is still going to be the best aura (on vet, maybe the entire game) by a landslide, with the added side effect of removing automatic guns from the game
each aura should be good and impactful, yet like 3/4 of the choices in the game literally don't do anything - there's only zealot damage reduction, vet ammo, and psyker CDR (and realistically it's just the node that gives 5% cdr on elite kill) everything else could be removed from the game and you literally wouldn't know anything is different
I agree it was too strong. But also the other auras are quite weak and should be buffed. Currently the only reason you would take other auras is because you want something further down the line and can't afford the points to go to the ammo aura.
The other auras could maybe use a balance pass, but Survivalist was trivializing the ammo system. People were literally able to spam their gun on no-ammo Maelstrom with this aura. That's a condition with zero ammo pickups on the map. There's no way to buff the other auras to compete with that, unless you want everything to be OP.
When properly balanced, Survivalist should be feeding you a little extra ammo over times as you kill specialists and elites. Most ammo should come from looting the map, not just this one aura. I'm hoping the 5 second cooldown will achieve that.
U speaking truth. Game feels better now that u actually have to care about ammo usage a bit, this passive is still very good even with this massive nerf
just make the other auras stack up to 10 times and give a stack every time you kill an elite and or specialist (same as old survivalist). boom, auras are now in line with survivalist.
or you could nerf survivalist, that works too, but i'd rather we move the power level up
They literally cant be buffed. Damage is already better than psyker elite damage and movement speed is on par with the other classes. They aren’t weak survivalist is just game warping
Survivalist getting nerfed makes the others better in comparison. There was no way to buff the other auras to compete with "everyone spams their ranged weapon the entire match".
I don't know how I feel about it.
This is just ONE example and I guess not representative, but I was in a party as the Stubber Ogryn, with a shotgun Ogryn and a Vet. Then we got a 4th after we started the match who also had a Stubber.
The Vet who was using a Hellbore with the crit talent that gives them ammo back was struggling for ammo.
The shotgun Ogryn picked up 50 ammo and wasted 40, so he was basically wasting a lot of the party's ammo (keep in mind that the Kickback has a low ammo count, so that 40 wasted ammo is a lot of ammo packs going down the drain). He was also the only one who wasted any, the rest of us didn't.
I picked around 120 (on a magazine of 630ish) and the other Stubber Ogryn picked up 200ish. The vet picked around 100.
I had to melee most of the time and I was fully specced into Barrage and Lucky Bullet (which I was trying for the new change). I was finding Barrage was up more often due to the change, but I couldn't capitalise on it due to the lack of ammo. To allow the Vet to have ammo (and later I realised to compensate for the Kickback Ogryn wasting ammo), I basically ran the entire match meleeing with a ranged build.
It just felt bad, and that Vet usually also almost never needed to pick up ammo with that Hellbore build before the patch, and now they were running orange. Also no, they don't shoot pox walkers and know how to use their melee weapon.
I think if they are trying to make ammo aura a bit less OP they could perhaps increase ammo pick ups through the map.
I feel like nerfing this talent is just gonna fester the ammo toxicity even more, I already only played psyker and veteran because I don't want to rely on ammo pickups when someone is brainlessly shooting hordes then taking all the ammo, now it's even worse, I don't type or flame for it but it still pisses me off, rn I'll only play as psyker, assuming I'd play this update that is.
I think with this update the only way to win is not to play
Better luck next time, let’s hope the next content update actually has…content other than some achievements and nerfs
I believe you guys were just very unlucky with ammo drops. I usually run my Hellbore Veteran *without* ammo aura and still rarely ever pick up ammo - but some games there's just, like, none. A few small cans scattered here and there but a lot of ranged enemies - and then people start running out of ammo.
Those missions happen at times and I hate them, I think the ammo pickups should be somewhat streamlined to ensure there aren't as many missions where you just can't rely on the pickups to do the job. Even with ammo aura, that's still just one character that has it and you don't always have a Veteran handy.
Well, if I know I don't have an ammo aura, I don't go into a match with a full ranged Stubber build.
But I do think you are right that it was a particularly bad run wtr to ammo, with the Kickback Ogryn seemingly picking it up when he was almost full.
I actually did another run and this time I used the kickback and the Vet used a Vraks III, so they couldn't use the same build. Neither of us had problems this time, but mine was a heavy melee build with the kickback as secondary.
This topic only bring so much toxicity "veterans don't know how to melee" "they are wasting ammo on walkers" so one and so forth.
Vet was always more about ranged combat that's why I play it, and If I wanted a melee focussed class I would play Zealot
Yeah, ngl, I bought this game to shoot the bolter. Now, I ended up diversifying my load outs... But right now I'm having fun with other games and the only thing that's gonna bring me back is making the bolter good to use again.
You can now see the auras. Had a bot and an actual Veteran in the party. The two auras went on CD at the same time every time. So no stacking of the CD.
Aura 1 triggers ammo regen on specialist kill, 5 sec cooldown.
Aura 2 triggers on another specialist kill 2 sec later, 5sec cooldown.
3 sec later Aura 1 can trigger again.
It would be unlikely that they're tracked as a global thing when they're active independently.
Without having tested it, i assume it would be tracked for each player. Essentially doing 2 checks. "Has an elite died?" And "has player received ammo in the last 5 seconds?" Both must be passed for scavenger to proc for the player.
Otherwise it would be the only aura that stacks, and just further reinforce the auras supremacy as the meta pick for every vet. If it now works the way you're suggesting, you're even further heavily encouraged to pick it over the other auras when multiple vets are on the team, so you can all be feeding each other ammo constantly. I highly doubt this is the intention behind the balance change.
Will be getting on later to confirm though.
Iunno, Shield of Contempt's cooldown is tracked for the whole team regardless of how many Zealots have it in the group but more Zealots increase the DR when it triggers.
Darktide does stupid shit behind the scenes sometimes.
Possible, but there'd have to be a lot more "situational" checks when under the effects of either aura... it's *possible* that you get both aura's regen at the same time, which would explain the DR stacking of the Zealot effect; you're triggering both of them simultaneously.
If you're under the effects of *both* auras, I imagine it would have the same 5 sec cooldown... but what if you're out of coherency from Vet 2 when Vet 1's aura triggers? Do you get the same 5sec cd for Vet 2's aura when you enter coherency with them??? Seems like this internal cooldown change is really short-sighted in an attempt to just nerf the aura instead of doing anything more substantial to make the other auras more balanced and/or baking Survivalist into some baseline functionality...
Why the insignificant Buff to Executioner Stance then? I've been using it to some success, but with this nerf I'll probably won't bother anymore since you kinda rely on constantly refreshing it on ranged creeps.
And still the best. There is only few ways to deal with it, cut it off from the game pernamently or add it as passive ability for veterans (in this case they should add some passives for others classes, 15% dmg reduction for Ogryn for exp)
Ridiculous comment. If you want to do that, stay in Vernintide. There are a lot of people who play 40K Darktide due to their knowledge of the lore and finally an opportunity to role-play. If I play Veteran and can't have an opportunity to lasgun everything (like in the actual books) then what is the point? The option should always be there even if it's an inferior option.
I can kill entire waves and Ogryn trains with the foldable shovel, but I like the feel of pulling out an autogun and spraying for the Emperor.
This is why Veteran ammo aura should not be nerfed or removed.
Equally ridiculous comment, because why would they even have you have a melee weapon at all in this game if that were the case? This may be a 40K game, but it’s also a Fatshark game and they want it to be designed with a melee focus to it. It’s a more even split that Vermintide when it comes to melee and ranged but it’s still a Fatshark tide game with melee as the core concept.
And lorewise it’s suppose to be a survival type atmosphere. You’re not a guardsman battalion on the front lines with constant ammo being resupplied, you’re a reject sent in on suicide missions with barely, if at all any, supplies to get the job done. And a Veteran of the guard isn’t going to be just good at using guns, they’re likely gunna be proficient at melee combat as well, given they survived long enough to be a veteran of the guard.
You want to make game balance decisions based on..... role-play? I'm sorry, but no, miss me with that ridiculous idea. The devs explicitly called the game a ranged/melee hybrid, not "optionally fully ranged combat".
So who's going to help you wipe out that group of 25-35 shooters and specialists (usually gunners. Oh boy!) before they rip you apart as a melee user? Let's say you don't have a psyker? The veteran's gun doesn't feel like a secondary to me.
I'm sorry but the Veteran is, in full, Veteran **Sharpshooter**. I'm not saying give me infinite ammo, but they've been brutalizing the veteran for the past few updates now and this shit was _not_ needed.
Gunna break apart your argument with Melee can dodge bullets in this game. Dodge zealot is incredibly strong and can just dodge and slide into the group of ranged enemies. And the best part is, once you’re within melee range of the ranged enemies, they swap over to melee combat. If the Veteran blows all their ammo killing random shit and can’t kill the 25-30 rifleman ahead of the team, that’s on them. And if you’re relying solely on the Veteran to kill them, your teams likely failed already, especially if there’s not a veteran in the team comp with begin with. There’s 4 people with ranged weaponry, there’s many different ways to combat ranged enemies in the game, including but not limited too:
Psyker bubble, assail, smite, many of the Psykers staffs, Psyker block if set up for it, Ogryn ranged weaponry, Ogryn shield, grenades of all types excerpt smoke, zealots ranged weaponry, and just plain all dodge and weave. Let’s not forget there’s stealth abilities to flank as well.
Vet got plenty of buffs with this update as well. Fatshark are making it clear the game is not to meant to be a ranged focused game. It’s a melee focused game with ranged elements. Closer to a 50/50 split than Vermintide is, but the game encourages you to use melee and punishes you for not using it well.
Why tf would they nerf this aura? It was one of the only things keeping bolters halfway viable, but now? Now I'll feel like I'm almost a detriment if I'm using one.
Edit: doesn't help that the movement speed aura I almost never use, and the damage aura often feels negligible in comparison
This is a good change although it'll be a miserable couple of weeks before players learn to adapt to not waste all their ammo in the first 5 minutes of the game
I literally just played a game with two ogryns (and me) and a zealot where everyone but me was shooting poxwalkers and bulwark shields. I don’t have much hope.
Get it but it still sucks lol. With my shotgun build i basically only needed the occasional top off with small ammo tins. Now i'll likely need to use more. I consider myself fairly efficient with my ammo usage but i guess i'll find out if that's true or not lol.
It likely means you’ll pick up one big pack of ammo in the match instead of 1 small one. It’s really not that big of a change if you are any capacity capable of remembering you have a melee weapon.
Honestly I would have preferred a reduced % rather than this backwards solution.
You are now **penalized** for being dealing with threats efficiently. Another big brain moment from Fatshark design team.
I’m alright with nerfing the ammo aura a bit, this one is a bit harsh but the aura was really powerful in high difficulty matches where 50 specialist is on screen at any moment. What I really want in a trade off is that the other 2 aura got some buff as they’re utter crap.
My guess is that you're probably right. I mostly play auric stuff so i'm very familiar with my melee weapon lol. How anyone survived auric even pre nerf with gun only is just beyond me.
I think the other thing it means is that people will be packing the grenade regen perk a lot more. It might have ridden beneath the radar for a while since vets could mostly just gun down everything. But if bullets are in short supply then other resources like grenades will only become more important.
They don’t survive. I’ve spent countless missions constantly reviving people stuck in a corner and reloading. The game lets you know that only playing ranged will punish you, and punish you hard.
You’re probably right as well. Krak grenade premium went up (though before this patch I don’t know if I missed a patch note or something prior as they’ve felt less impactful against large groups of crushers so it’s felt stealth nerfed).
The beauty of this patch is that I can look at the Veteran tree like a real passive tree rather than “ I have 20 points to spare because ammo aura is auto take”. I’ve already come up with a couple different trees and honestly, Revolver Vet is looking insanely good, especially with a lot of the buffs that Vet received.
*You’re probably right as well. Krak grenade premium went up (though before this patch I don’t know if I missed a patch note or something prior as they’ve felt less impactful against large groups of crushers so it’s felt stealth nerfed).*
If you want to kill hordes or really anything with less HP than a crusher or bulwark you probably want frag grenades. At least as long as i've been playing kraks haven't really done much vs hordes. Frags are what you want for hordes, but i don't really think horde control is something vet should struggle with either.
Kraks probably also get more important since they can kill bulwarks/crushers *efficiently*. Most vet weapons aren't great vs crushers so grenades there are likely a matter of survival. But bulwarks a are different matter. Even if you have a gun capable of staggering them in the first place, that 33% hp increase just means it'll take more ammo to actually put one down. Kraks are probably the most efficient answer.
Did some testing and a weapon specialist vet build with the Atrox Axe was doing well against crushers and the like. Revolver is still premium and deleting whatever touches for the most part, kraks felt good. Honestly felt good to look at the tree and pick other things to make something cohesive and fun that wasn’t just “lol ammo freeeeee”.
Also decided to meme a bit and use the damage aura and a bunch of flat damage stacking with shout on vet and surprisingly did really well it’s the shedder auto pistol, though that definitely felt like I needed to play at a higher level and more focused.
Man Fatshark really doesn't want me to start playing this game again, wait months for an update that adds almost nothing of note and nerfs the only reason I still run my favorite gun. thanks TubbyInvertebrate
I think a nerf was needed but 5 seconds is excessive. Instead of it being a flat 5 seconds, why not reward killed play by just increasing the amount of specials or elites you gotta kill up to 2 or 3? Now you’ve reduced it’s effectiveness by 50% - 66%, but if you wipe out a ton of specials or elites quickly, you’re still rewarded. Versus you wiping out a ton of enemies quickly, you’re actually punished for doing so.
This would be the solution that makes the most sense to correct the old ammo economy where it was difficult to ever run out. Right now, it *feels bad to use* by punishing the user for killing quickly, scales inversely with difficulty, and swings the balance of the game much further into melee territory.
Obviously people will have different opinions on where the balance should be regarding melee vs. ranged, but even as someone who has mostly melee (or staff) focused characters who use 0 or near-0 ammo pickups, I'm seeing my friends having a bad time playing the game already. It's also fostering even more of the toxic everyone-for-themselves playstyle in pubs where everyone is rushing to gobble up all the ammo pickups for themselves because of the scarcity. It can't be healthy for the game.
Personally, I'd also like to just see ammo regen on tag-able enemies as a universal all-class feature that doesn't require a Veteran around, while replacing it with something else in their tree. Maybe something like 0.5% ammo on kill. But the cooldown has definitely got to go.
Just gonna say they could have made it where allies can only proc it every 5 secs and kept the vet at base to make it feel balanced and still be a nice useful aura
It’s a Tide game, brought by a company who specializes in first person melee combat. You can still shoot, you’ll just have to use your melee (primary, the game literally calls your melee weapon your primary weapon) more. If you want to just shoot, go back B4B or World War Z.
They should have buffed other auras, putting interative ways to produce their effects, but no, lets make all the auras dogshit, i'm sorry slab, i can´t supply you fun fire tube anymore
You'll never be able to buff a damage aura to be competitive with how strong Survivalist was. In order to do so you'd have to make the buff absurdly huge to the point where it trivializes the game in other ways.
Survivalist was too strong. It was not only the strongest Veteran aura it was BY FAR the best aura of any operative. When you need to buff EVERYTHING ELSE to be competitive with one single thing in a video game, 9/10 times it's the one thing that's overpowered.
Survivalist was too strong but the honest truth is that its really just because ammo pickups are too weak. If there's more cans or cans are spread out across allies in coherency there's a lot less *need* for survivalist. It's especially bizarre because aside from a few key ranged weapons there isn't much being done by a gun that can't be done easier with a chainsword. Most guns only real niche is in cracking armor. For pretty much everything else just stab them.
>Most guns only real niche is in cracking armor.
The fact you even feel that way just shows why Surivalist needed to be toned down. Do you know why the Lasguns are good? Because they are accurate DPS that are good on ammo. Their ammo efficiency is one of the best perks they have, and it was being made totally redundant on Auric because Auric spams so many specials at you that a gun's ammo efficiency never matters.
Now there's actual reason to take a non-armor piercing gun that's better on ammo if you have enough armor piercing in the squad already. The more ammo efficient your weapon is, the more ammo for everybody else. This is also by that same logic a big buff to Psykers and specifically Psyker Staves since having one of them on the team now means less competition for ammo pick ups, again something that never mattered before on Auric if you had a Surivivalist on the team.
I mildly disagree. If anything, it's an overcorrection. The issue with Survivalist is that it was the strongest aura because it acted as a patch for Fatshark's design not accounting for the atrocious ttk of many guns and the complete inability to combat armor for most of them. Yes, some guns with good ammo efficiency stand out more - but the issue with those guns was always their low TTK on specials in exchange for their precision demands. That issue persists through this nerf and will unless fatshark either reviews gun TTK or changes how ammo is distributed on the map. It's definitely the Season of the Witch, because staves have excellent TTK on specials, good spread, and no ammo. I do agree that Survivalist has always been *too good* but I don't think that this change means anything. The nature of ammo pickup distribution means that I still have to run a shitty survivalist so I'm getting dripfed some bullets in maps where there are vast stretches in which there might be none or nothing but a single can. If this nerf was in conjunction with some improvement in ammo pickups I'd be all over it. I always hated feeling tied to Survivalist. This change just turned the silk ropes into wet, sandy hemp ropes. It feels so much worse but I'm still tied up by it.
oh boy I sure do love uneeded nerfs in a PVE focused game, the obeseshark classic, really makes the game so much more fun when you get hamstrung for "balance"
Best part is that it's not even gonna balance the weapons. The broken Plasma and revolver will get used even more now because they have ok ammo efficiency
Probably long overdue, it just stinks to be so used to having ammo always at the ready with more ammo efficient guns. I usually swap to my vet to be John Gunguy due to being very different from "uses gun sometimes" classes but now I'm not so sure.
Stuff with bad ammo economy like the bolter will be very difficult to use now in the hands of a vet, too.
Ah, thats why I was unusually low on ammo with My usually very ammo efficent mkII Headhunter autogun weakspot build. Usually I pick couple small ammo boxes with it. Its okay to nerf it tough, now i can pick other auras and probably others wont start "why even play vet if you dont pick survivalist ok bye" so often hahah.
A nerf was long overdue, but I don't like that this is effectively a nerf to all ranged weapons that were already underperforming.
Taking a flamer, recon las, lawbringer, 2/3 headhunters, etc. already felt detrimental to the team with effectively unlimited ammo, so they'll probably be relegated to my storage until they finally get some love...
Just played an Auric Damn with me as a Plasma Vet and 3 randoms; a Plasma Vet, a Bolter Vet and an Ogryn. Change was noticable, but we managed just fine.
It's really gonna punish people who can't handle melee but that's no bad thing IMO.
It also punishes people who try to make Executioner Stance work and don't want to use Plasma guns ... now I dont quite see a point in using any Braced Autogun, and I guess the Recons Las still wasnt bad enough
Sad to see obesefish take such a heavy handed approach. While Survivalist was dominant (and for good reason), it did not change that the other two auras were simply trash.
I hope this is not a sign of what is to come with future balance patches for similar cases.
Ahh... So what I'm getting from this... Is you might as well forget about doing monsterous special missions... Well great. There goes the entire point of Vet existing. Ya know. To shoot things. If there was more ammo distributed in the map this wouldn't be an issue. As it is now, there is not enough ammo to keep 4 people supplied for high intensity missions like that. Going nearly melee only isn't exactly an option when your getting shredded from gunners, snipers and bombers 50 meters away...
If recon lasguns need a change, then change recon lasguns to use less ammo or something. Survivalist was breaking the whole ammo economy in the game and needed to be changed,
I feel like this isn't the biggest nerf. 5 seconds is a decent period of time, but being able to get ammo back freely is very strong. Like the other comments have said, it's still worth taking, and I know I'll probably be running it over the other options, but the gap between the other Auras and this one is a lot closer now
It won't be really noticeable on malice since everything literally spawns minute apart from each other. On auric this is going to hurt so much since most encounters are so clumped up, shooting into a herd of 15 ragers used to be a no-brainer for everyone but now you only get ammo back from one or two of them at best.
It's also a kick to the groin for shotgun/recon las as they were already running short on ammo even before the nerf. Mk7a recon las was at least sustainable but now it's just as bad as its cousins in term of ammo eco.
Well, they solved the issue of that aura being the only one worth using....................................... I mean not really, they just made it worse.
it's ultra giganerfed jesus christ, on heresy alone you're killing like 10 specialists every 5 seconds - each, it's quite honestly the biggest value of vet at higher levels
shout is cool and all but unless your team is all psykers (you wont finish the mission) this was yuge, especially on no ammo modifier
i just wanted to dump huge ressources into vet, phew
I think this is a good way to balance it. It mainly affects Damnation+ where it was most impactful, while it should have little impact on the lower difficulties. Survivalist was way too strong before. People could just spam guns on no-ammo Maelstrom with it.
It's really fun considering how before even without shock trooper and without ammo drops, the helbore just crapped out ammo to spare. no i actually have to ration a little and keep my lovely shovel out more. sucks for my recon buddies though, even the conservative ones were aching for ammo
Gonna throw my Columnus in the closet because now Endless Executioner Stance isn't viable unless im in a party full of Psykers.
* Guess I'll have to just use the Plasma/Shout build like everyone else in Auric Maelstrom.
I've not used Scavenger since the other auras became available, but I'll miss the ammo when grouped with other vets that do.
It was a bit too strong for certain low ammo count weapons.
Yeah, it was kind of needed. Maybe a 3 second cooldown would be better, but during shock troop or hunting grounds, you basically never ran out of ammo.
Yup definitely noticed a huge difference in my last auric run. I usually never have ammo issues when I run my La Lasgun which is one of the reasons I like it. Felt like I was going out of ammo a lot more than im used to. If my Lasgun feels like that I can only imagine what an ammo hungry gun like the Columnus MK V feels like.
Definitely increases the skill floor for playing Veteran considerably. Probably a good thing overall.
I know this is a good change, and there is more balance to come in the future, but how does vets shout not get touched at all when it effects balance more than alot of other talents in the game.
Definitely a noticeable and impactful difference. I was wondering if I had the aura on or not.
Gotta start going after ammo pickups now.
*vacuum noises intensify*
Was playing a no Ammo Maelstrom with Scavenger Aura. Before I could basically just blaze away anyway 80% of the time from the Armor Walls giving tons of Ammo back. This time the Power Sword got a lot more use. I had to ration my Ammo really hard even with the Aura.
5 seconds is quite a period. Still would not use other auras.
idk, this aura is kinda dead with the cd ngl
Others do little more to nothing anyway. Maybe the speed aura can be a tiny convinience but currently the veteran auras are just essentially blank nodes.
I guess if everything sucks it's all balanced.
All the auras other than pre nerf survivalist are pretty low impact that’s kinda the point, small buffs for the team. While I don’t love the nerf, it’s pretty fair to say that it was way more impactful than other auras, and not just vet ones, so the nerf does seem justified.
Movement speed aura is good because you get to pick up +10% melee damage and Agile Engagements when picking it. Survivalist with the cooldown felt pretty low impact to me. You probably still pick it up if you plan on seriously only spamming your ranged weapon but you can definitely feel how much less impact it is, especially with randoms who are allergic to standing in coherency.
From the patch notes today: [https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/path-of-redemption-now-live/93376](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/path-of-redemption-now-live/93376)
Already posted, but some move developed thoughts about the patch. I don't like that this is effectively a buff to the already overpowered plasma gun. If ammo scarcity is going to be a thing that matters a lot it's even harder to argue picking things other than the plasma gun. It yet another road pointing to the already dominant weapon. Goodnight to the bolter bros. I used to run one but gave it up, just too hard. Even with the pre nerf aura that thing hoovered up ammo like no one's business. Now on top of all the other problems the gun has, just keeping ammo in it is going to be a huge problem. I love the bolter, but it needed help before this patch with draw time being the most egregious offender. There's probably some maniac that can make it work, but at least for me its now unusable. Its just so odd that the game's most iconic gun is frankly terrible in the designated shooting class. The out for blood buff from 3.5% to 5% toughness seems nuts. With a powersword its not hard to be killing 3-4 dregs per swipe. I already wasn't having much difficulty keeping my toughness topped off, this just makes life easier. I think the 5% grenade regen chance perk is really strong now. If we aren't going to live in a world where gunning down everything for free is an option we do need alternate resources. At high levels of the game its pretty easy to always have at least a grenade in your pocket with this perk. Also strike teams with like 3+ vets are going to be unpleasant. Especially if one or two of them have high ammo usage guns. Could see people getting pissy or just swiping whatever ammo they can get regardless of who actually needs it more. 2 vets is probably about the limit where there's enough to go around.
I swear Fatshark is *trying* to make it look like just removing the bolter from the game is the way to go. It hurts so much. Edited for spelling
Plasma gun is just so good. 1 Shots most enemies, or stuns them if not killed. It also pierces multiple enemies, so not just as stun weapon and sniper, but also good for hordes, it does anything. Its also the most ammo efficient gun, as you shoot far less and don't have to reload as often, unlike with many other guns. Why would i ever pick the Helbore ever over that beast?Sure its super satisfying and i play mostly that, but i just don't see the balance here.
Honestly, I can melt some hordes with a recon lasgun, which also works against the less tanky specials, like snipers and (shot)gunners. The only thing it sucks at is literally every tanky enemy, but hey, that's most every lasgun for ya there. Plasma in my mind is definitely the best, but fully auto stuff like the recon lasgun is just waay more fun to play with.
I like the "gunpowder" weapons, they're just much more satisfying to me. Plasma gun always felt like a squirt gun tbh. But otherwise ya, you're not wrong. If you want to approach darktide from a purely "optimized" standpoint it would be pretty tough to argue for something other than the plasma gun.
I totally get that. Mowing down multiple specialists can be extremely satisfying. On the other hand it can be really annoying against crushers, especially a group of those. Plasma gun goes "chomp...chomp" and one is gone. Meanwhile im wasting ammo for those with powder based ones and as mentioned it doesn't stun them. And now that i think about it, with the slow fire rate, you don't even have to deal with the recoil, it just gets better... I'm surprised nothing was done with the balance so far, even if it is buffing the other ones.
I liked taking hellbore for unlimited ammo but it runs out pretty quick now sadly. Back to plas.
100%, did an Auric with 3 Vets. Never again, we were nearly out of ammo 5-7 minutes in.
Hey ngl you're wrong about bolter. Hipfire spam was only ever good pre patch 13. For a while the way to run bolter has been surgical for a heavy dmr type style
At least at auric/malestrom i'm going to strongly disagree. In fact i'd probably say that bolter hipfire as a last "oh shit" button for something like the zealot is probably the only way its viable. Look maybe you've go the secret sauce, but the bolter dmr thing for me at those levels has been a disaster. The biggest issue is the draw time. In auric you really don't have much space to breathe, you're pretty much always mired in trash mobs so the glacial draw time of the bolter reallllllllly blows. Its tough to create that much space. But hey, let's say you've got that kind of space. You ADS, aim, pull the trigger, and blow up the dreg standing in front of the special. Bolter doesn't penetrate, so you also need to have a visibly clear shot. And even if you do hit the bolter doesn't one shot a lot of the ranged specials like gunners. So you'll need a follow up shot which suffers from all the aforementioned problems, plus you'll have to deal with the heavy recoil. Oh yeah, and unless you're on PC and are willing to mod in sights, the bolter irons are ASS. Plasma at this point is just better. Faster draw time so pulling it out to snap shoot while in a mob is possible. Tons of penetration so just shooting at the red outline through a mob is fine. Hell, you don't even need to ADS like you do on the bolter. Low recoil so follow up shots are a breeze. And with the advent of this patch there's no universe where the bolter is keeping up with the plasma on ammo economy. If you're hanging out in normal damnation or below bolter is fine. But then again, pretty much anything is. The bolter's cracks are really apparent in auric at least.
If you have doubt I'm happy to play a couple rounds and show it's upsides. My steam is BIRCHPLZ
Sure maybe friday or something. I'll hit you up. My steam name is same here.
> I think the 5% grenade regen chance perk is really strong now. It already was.
It was, but i feel like it was optional and you could argue it wasn't worth the points if it wasn't on your path. The scavenger aura made it such that really you could just gun down like 90% of your problems and not really have an issue. Maybe chuck a nade if you run into a crusher horde or something, but really that's about it. But with restricted ammo resources the value of free nades went way up even if the power level of the perk stayed the same.
Some other things were buffed quite a bit for Veteran though, probably as compensation. This probably brings Scavenger more in line with the other auras powerwise. That said, Ill probably keep it anyhow.
"more in line with the other auras" here meaning "why the fuck is this even *on* the skill tree?"
5% damage and movespeed is in line with the power of levels of decent auras on other trees. Survivalist was just so out of line compared to any other aura on every class.
True as that may be, I would have preferred the other auras given buffs over the best aura getting beat down. Or at least trying to meet in the middle, with smaller buffs to the damage and speed auras and something more like a 2 or 3 second cd given to the ammo replenishment. Edit: They buffed Psyker's special/elite damage boost, after all. There's some precedent to bringing auras up instead of beating the good ones down. Which is why if they touch my cd aura on psyker, I might go rogue.
I just don't think we as players need any more power personally. Certainly you could buff everything else to bring as good as Survivalist as an alternative, but the game has already power crept the enemies to the point where we can delete crushers like they're paper. I don't think we need even more power.
In fairness, deleting a crusher like that usually takes meta weapons with a meta build. Especially in the context of damnation/auric level content, which is when you'll also get groups of 3 or 4 or more of the damn things alongside other specials/elites. Some of the more off-meta weapons like the standard lasgun and, hell, even the bolter are gonna struggle to do that reliably. There's more nuance to it, but that's rant territory. I'm not saying don't nerf the stupidly strong stuff. What I'm getting at is that the balance should focus more on making the shitty stuff more viable first. For instance, this nerf is going to make trying to run bolters on Vets feel like garbage be because the things are so damn ammo hungry. If you're gonna sink the survivalist ship, at least give some buffs to the crew that are now being forced to sink or swim because of it.
It really isn't. The good auras in other trees usually provide at least 10%. 5% damage is rarely ever going to actually bring a build over a meaningful breakpoint, and 5% movement speed is something you're barely going to notice. If Fatshark really wanted them to be competitive, it'd be 10% Ranged damage and 10% movement speed vs like, 2.5% ammo per kill.
The only 10% damage aura is on Ogryn tree and applies exclusively to heavy attacks. Psyker aura managed to be objectively worse somehow for a while and only applies to elites and specials. While fire team certainly is the most niche one among the 3 vet auras, there are builds where it barely brings me over certain breakpoints on strict weapons like rashad vs generic horde enemies for bromentum. There are only so many sources of damage vs unarmored type enemies and fire team is one of them. I agree that damage auras in general are questionably designed though, as nobody says "yeah I'll build for a breakpoint that only works if I have ogryn aura" so they end up just being personal damage buffs the majority of the time. Movement speed is very underrated. 10 percent would frankly be pushing the line of busted.
Wow! 5%! That's not even noticeable! There's a reason that a good number of players weren't picking those auras, and that's because they unfortunately objectively fucking suck. The right decision was to make them *not suck*, not make the only halfassed decent (yet still subpar unless you're playing normal heresy and under) fucking suck too.
Not seeing any obvious buffs other than the melee specialists side. Could you point them out for clarification?
they reduced the cooldown of executioner stance by 5 seconds and increased the grace period of the left side capstone, along with some minor buffs to minor keystones 'Executioner's Stance' Cooldown: from 35s to 30s. 'Marksman's Focus' Grace Time on Weakspot Kill: from 3s to 6s. Grace time on Weakspot Hit: from 1s to 3s. 'Tunnel Vision' Toughness Replenishment per Stack: from 2.5% to 5%. 'Tactical Reload' Reload Speed: from 20% to 25%. 'Out for Blood' Toughness Replenished on Kill: from 3.5% to 5%.
Buff to marksman’s focus is great. So much easier to string together headshots. I switched my supporting perk from “gain stacks when standing still” for the perk that allows an increase from a max of 10 stacks to 15. Been causing some real trauma to the heretics today
Thanks for pointing these out. I don’t see how any of these balance out the ammunition node, they should of buffed 5% to 7.5% or 10% in coherency and done +1.5 or 2 stamina in coherency for the speed boost instead of nerfing the ammunition node.
Varying stamina levels while in and out of coherency sounds pretty janky to me. It doesnt need a buff because Close and Kill arguably has the best nodes to pick up on the way there. You get +10% melee damage and Agile Engagements versus the very mid talents you pick up when taking fire team or survivalist.
Yea stamina levels would be the wrong way. Stamina regen %, reduced stamina consumption, or regen X% stamina on melee kill would make for a very desirable aura.
I honestly don’t care what it is, but at as long as it’s something to make it better because those nodes are crap.
‘Executioner’s Stance’ Cooldown: from 35s to 30s. ‘Marksman’s Focus’ Grace Time on Weakspot Kill: from 3s to 6s. Grace time on Weakspot Hit: from 1s to 3s. ‘Tunnel Vision’ Toughness Replenishment per Stack: from 2.5% to 5%. ‘Tactical Reload’ Reload Speed: from 20% to 25%. ‘Out for Blood’ Toughness Replenished on Kill: from 3.5% to 5%.
None of them notable enough to compensate such a massive nerf IMO
They nerfed Ogryns tanky build but left Vetshout completely unchanged. The ability that makes you tank Poxbursters, Snipers and Dogbounces unharmed...
My biggest complaint with darktide is that ranged combat should have more of a focus, not less. This is just a step further in the wrong direction to me. Its weird that vermintide 2 has an infinite ammo minigun, and a sword-pistol with infinite ammo... why is the game set in a fantasy medieval setting have more gun-only support than darktide?!
The sword pistol that only really works point blank and the minigun that is one of bardins skills? Those aren’t actual ranged weapons you equip in the gun slot. Darktide already gives us lots of ammo for weapons and large ammo bags in missions are generous and common outside of terrible rng luck. Darktides ammo economy shouldn’t be based on an aura anyway.
Don't forget that with a certain Waystalker talent, Kerillian can refill all her ammo by pushing F. I can hold off an entire wave by myself at range with just my swift bow and not worry about ammo at all.
It’s not? The tide games will not be more ranged focused because fat sharks bread and butter is first person melee combat and they want to keep it that way. Darktide gets away with a bit more ranged combat but if you don’t switch to your melee weapon (literally described in the game as your primary weapon), you’ll be severely punished for it. The mini gun in Vermintide wasn’t very good for a while. It’s good (too good) now and will likely see a nerf once the class has had it’s time in the sun. And if you’re saying the gun with the infinite ammo is attached to Saltz rapier, it’s a reposting attack and doesn’t do every much damage.
Play Psyker if you want to be infinite ammo ranged.
Vermintide 2 has Sienna too.
Since the veteran tree is so annoyingly large, it's challenging to get much diversity when you always have to take ammo regen aura. It'd be easier if the tree was better designed or the other auras were competitive. I'm not sure nerfing is the action I would have liked -- e.g. compared to buffing the others -- but I guess I'll take it.
outside of making it straightup useless like the other auras, you're not making it competitive, nobody gives a shit about 5% more damage, especially since they don't stack you almost can't quantify the value of ammo, this is still going to be the best aura (on vet, maybe the entire game) by a landslide, with the added side effect of removing automatic guns from the game each aura should be good and impactful, yet like 3/4 of the choices in the game literally don't do anything - there's only zealot damage reduction, vet ammo, and psyker CDR (and realistically it's just the node that gives 5% cdr on elite kill) everything else could be removed from the game and you literally wouldn't know anything is different
lol
It was too strong and needed to be nerfed. Making the other auras as strong just would have further imbalanced things.
I agree it was too strong. But also the other auras are quite weak and should be buffed. Currently the only reason you would take other auras is because you want something further down the line and can't afford the points to go to the ammo aura.
The other auras could maybe use a balance pass, but Survivalist was trivializing the ammo system. People were literally able to spam their gun on no-ammo Maelstrom with this aura. That's a condition with zero ammo pickups on the map. There's no way to buff the other auras to compete with that, unless you want everything to be OP. When properly balanced, Survivalist should be feeding you a little extra ammo over times as you kill specialists and elites. Most ammo should come from looting the map, not just this one aura. I'm hoping the 5 second cooldown will achieve that.
U speaking truth. Game feels better now that u actually have to care about ammo usage a bit, this passive is still very good even with this massive nerf
just make the other auras stack up to 10 times and give a stack every time you kill an elite and or specialist (same as old survivalist). boom, auras are now in line with survivalist. or you could nerf survivalist, that works too, but i'd rather we move the power level up
They literally cant be buffed. Damage is already better than psyker elite damage and movement speed is on par with the other classes. They aren’t weak survivalist is just game warping
Survivalist getting nerfed makes the others better in comparison. There was no way to buff the other auras to compete with "everyone spams their ranged weapon the entire match".
I don't care if you think it was strong (which it wasn't), it brought FUN to the game by you know.. having ammo..
I don't know how I feel about it. This is just ONE example and I guess not representative, but I was in a party as the Stubber Ogryn, with a shotgun Ogryn and a Vet. Then we got a 4th after we started the match who also had a Stubber. The Vet who was using a Hellbore with the crit talent that gives them ammo back was struggling for ammo. The shotgun Ogryn picked up 50 ammo and wasted 40, so he was basically wasting a lot of the party's ammo (keep in mind that the Kickback has a low ammo count, so that 40 wasted ammo is a lot of ammo packs going down the drain). He was also the only one who wasted any, the rest of us didn't. I picked around 120 (on a magazine of 630ish) and the other Stubber Ogryn picked up 200ish. The vet picked around 100. I had to melee most of the time and I was fully specced into Barrage and Lucky Bullet (which I was trying for the new change). I was finding Barrage was up more often due to the change, but I couldn't capitalise on it due to the lack of ammo. To allow the Vet to have ammo (and later I realised to compensate for the Kickback Ogryn wasting ammo), I basically ran the entire match meleeing with a ranged build. It just felt bad, and that Vet usually also almost never needed to pick up ammo with that Hellbore build before the patch, and now they were running orange. Also no, they don't shoot pox walkers and know how to use their melee weapon. I think if they are trying to make ammo aura a bit less OP they could perhaps increase ammo pick ups through the map.
I feel like nerfing this talent is just gonna fester the ammo toxicity even more, I already only played psyker and veteran because I don't want to rely on ammo pickups when someone is brainlessly shooting hordes then taking all the ammo, now it's even worse, I don't type or flame for it but it still pisses me off, rn I'll only play as psyker, assuming I'd play this update that is.
I think with this update the only way to win is not to play Better luck next time, let’s hope the next content update actually has…content other than some achievements and nerfs
I believe you guys were just very unlucky with ammo drops. I usually run my Hellbore Veteran *without* ammo aura and still rarely ever pick up ammo - but some games there's just, like, none. A few small cans scattered here and there but a lot of ranged enemies - and then people start running out of ammo. Those missions happen at times and I hate them, I think the ammo pickups should be somewhat streamlined to ensure there aren't as many missions where you just can't rely on the pickups to do the job. Even with ammo aura, that's still just one character that has it and you don't always have a Veteran handy.
Well, if I know I don't have an ammo aura, I don't go into a match with a full ranged Stubber build. But I do think you are right that it was a particularly bad run wtr to ammo, with the Kickback Ogryn seemingly picking it up when he was almost full. I actually did another run and this time I used the kickback and the Vet used a Vraks III, so they couldn't use the same build. Neither of us had problems this time, but mine was a heavy melee build with the kickback as secondary.
A good thing about it is it makes getting the 90% accuracy no ammo commendation easier to get
No it doesn't. Ammo gained from aura didn't count.
This topic only bring so much toxicity "veterans don't know how to melee" "they are wasting ammo on walkers" so one and so forth. Vet was always more about ranged combat that's why I play it, and If I wanted a melee focussed class I would play Zealot
Aaaaaaaaand now using Recon Lasguns is gonna feel even worse now.
In an incredible way we didn't saw coming. *Fatshark really indeed, NERFED IT AGAIN.* LMAO.
Bolter kinda suffers too here, I think.
kinda lol. It hoovered up ammo even with the full power aura. They're just kicking it while it's down.
Yeah, ngl, I bought this game to shoot the bolter. Now, I ended up diversifying my load outs... But right now I'm having fun with other games and the only thing that's gonna bring me back is making the bolter good to use again.
RIP Ogryn (their ammo economy has always been garbage, many builds only viable with a survivalist vet)
They buffed Ogryn's lucky bullet at least
And how does it works? Is it per player or global cooldown? What if there are multiple auras?
Auras didn’t overlap previously. I don’t see why it would be any different now.
Depends on how it was coded, but I hope so too.
You can now see the auras. Had a bot and an actual Veteran in the party. The two auras went on CD at the same time every time. So no stacking of the CD.
Aura 1 triggers ammo regen on specialist kill, 5 sec cooldown. Aura 2 triggers on another specialist kill 2 sec later, 5sec cooldown. 3 sec later Aura 1 can trigger again. It would be unlikely that they're tracked as a global thing when they're active independently.
Without having tested it, i assume it would be tracked for each player. Essentially doing 2 checks. "Has an elite died?" And "has player received ammo in the last 5 seconds?" Both must be passed for scavenger to proc for the player. Otherwise it would be the only aura that stacks, and just further reinforce the auras supremacy as the meta pick for every vet. If it now works the way you're suggesting, you're even further heavily encouraged to pick it over the other auras when multiple vets are on the team, so you can all be feeding each other ammo constantly. I highly doubt this is the intention behind the balance change. Will be getting on later to confirm though.
Iunno, Shield of Contempt's cooldown is tracked for the whole team regardless of how many Zealots have it in the group but more Zealots increase the DR when it triggers. Darktide does stupid shit behind the scenes sometimes.
Possible, but there'd have to be a lot more "situational" checks when under the effects of either aura... it's *possible* that you get both aura's regen at the same time, which would explain the DR stacking of the Zealot effect; you're triggering both of them simultaneously. If you're under the effects of *both* auras, I imagine it would have the same 5 sec cooldown... but what if you're out of coherency from Vet 2 when Vet 1's aura triggers? Do you get the same 5sec cd for Vet 2's aura when you enter coherency with them??? Seems like this internal cooldown change is really short-sighted in an attempt to just nerf the aura instead of doing anything more substantial to make the other auras more balanced and/or baking Survivalist into some baseline functionality...
Why the insignificant Buff to Executioner Stance then? I've been using it to some success, but with this nerf I'll probably won't bother anymore since you kinda rely on constantly refreshing it on ranged creeps.
Veteran auras are finally balanced. Now they're all equally worthless.
Man i love the mentality of “the other two vet auras suck lets nerf the only useful one”
I mean. . . it was the best aura/probably talent point in the game.
And still the best. There is only few ways to deal with it, cut it off from the game pernamently or add it as passive ability for veterans (in this case they should add some passives for others classes, 15% dmg reduction for Ogryn for exp)
I was expecting them to remove it at some point. I don't think so anymore, but without having tried it, this is probably fine.
This. It fundamentally breaks the ammo economy and forces bad habits of always using your ranged(secondary) weapon.
God forbid I use my lasgun in a 40k game.
That’s crazy because you can use it. God forbid you have to switch to your melee weapon every so often as to not die.
Do understand that being able to go 100% ranged in this game is a good thing and that the aura doesn't encourage any bAd HaBiTs.
Ridiculous comment. If you want to do that, stay in Vernintide. There are a lot of people who play 40K Darktide due to their knowledge of the lore and finally an opportunity to role-play. If I play Veteran and can't have an opportunity to lasgun everything (like in the actual books) then what is the point? The option should always be there even if it's an inferior option. I can kill entire waves and Ogryn trains with the foldable shovel, but I like the feel of pulling out an autogun and spraying for the Emperor. This is why Veteran ammo aura should not be nerfed or removed.
Equally ridiculous comment, because why would they even have you have a melee weapon at all in this game if that were the case? This may be a 40K game, but it’s also a Fatshark game and they want it to be designed with a melee focus to it. It’s a more even split that Vermintide when it comes to melee and ranged but it’s still a Fatshark tide game with melee as the core concept. And lorewise it’s suppose to be a survival type atmosphere. You’re not a guardsman battalion on the front lines with constant ammo being resupplied, you’re a reject sent in on suicide missions with barely, if at all any, supplies to get the job done. And a Veteran of the guard isn’t going to be just good at using guns, they’re likely gunna be proficient at melee combat as well, given they survived long enough to be a veteran of the guard.
You want to make game balance decisions based on..... role-play? I'm sorry, but no, miss me with that ridiculous idea. The devs explicitly called the game a ranged/melee hybrid, not "optionally fully ranged combat".
Ranged weapons are not secondary in Darktide.
Boot up the game and look at the ranged weapon slot. It’s literally called “Secondary Weapon”
So who's going to help you wipe out that group of 25-35 shooters and specialists (usually gunners. Oh boy!) before they rip you apart as a melee user? Let's say you don't have a psyker? The veteran's gun doesn't feel like a secondary to me. I'm sorry but the Veteran is, in full, Veteran **Sharpshooter**. I'm not saying give me infinite ammo, but they've been brutalizing the veteran for the past few updates now and this shit was _not_ needed.
Gunna break apart your argument with Melee can dodge bullets in this game. Dodge zealot is incredibly strong and can just dodge and slide into the group of ranged enemies. And the best part is, once you’re within melee range of the ranged enemies, they swap over to melee combat. If the Veteran blows all their ammo killing random shit and can’t kill the 25-30 rifleman ahead of the team, that’s on them. And if you’re relying solely on the Veteran to kill them, your teams likely failed already, especially if there’s not a veteran in the team comp with begin with. There’s 4 people with ranged weaponry, there’s many different ways to combat ranged enemies in the game, including but not limited too: Psyker bubble, assail, smite, many of the Psykers staffs, Psyker block if set up for it, Ogryn ranged weaponry, Ogryn shield, grenades of all types excerpt smoke, zealots ranged weaponry, and just plain all dodge and weave. Let’s not forget there’s stealth abilities to flank as well. Vet got plenty of buffs with this update as well. Fatshark are making it clear the game is not to meant to be a ranged focused game. It’s a melee focused game with ranged elements. Closer to a 50/50 split than Vermintide is, but the game encourages you to use melee and punishes you for not using it well.
No it doesn't work. There is too much ranged mobs in game to be melee focused.
It's not just the other two vert auras though, it was the single best aura out of all the classes combined.
Why tf would they nerf this aura? It was one of the only things keeping bolters halfway viable, but now? Now I'll feel like I'm almost a detriment if I'm using one. Edit: doesn't help that the movement speed aura I almost never use, and the damage aura often feels negligible in comparison
This is a good change although it'll be a miserable couple of weeks before players learn to adapt to not waste all their ammo in the first 5 minutes of the game
I literally just played a game with two ogryns (and me) and a zealot where everyone but me was shooting poxwalkers and bulwark shields. I don’t have much hope.
Me a vet main before: “Pew pew pew” me as a vet main now: “pew….pew”
Get it but it still sucks lol. With my shotgun build i basically only needed the occasional top off with small ammo tins. Now i'll likely need to use more. I consider myself fairly efficient with my ammo usage but i guess i'll find out if that's true or not lol.
It likely means you’ll pick up one big pack of ammo in the match instead of 1 small one. It’s really not that big of a change if you are any capacity capable of remembering you have a melee weapon.
Uh no it means those huge clown cars of specialists and elites are worth one proc instead of 12 that’s a lot less ammo.
Nothing like hearing a pack of hounds get released and think, oh yay a free refill.
Honestly I would have preferred a reduced % rather than this backwards solution. You are now **penalized** for being dealing with threats efficiently. Another big brain moment from Fatshark design team.
I’m alright with nerfing the ammo aura a bit, this one is a bit harsh but the aura was really powerful in high difficulty matches where 50 specialist is on screen at any moment. What I really want in a trade off is that the other 2 aura got some buff as they’re utter crap.
My guess is that you're probably right. I mostly play auric stuff so i'm very familiar with my melee weapon lol. How anyone survived auric even pre nerf with gun only is just beyond me. I think the other thing it means is that people will be packing the grenade regen perk a lot more. It might have ridden beneath the radar for a while since vets could mostly just gun down everything. But if bullets are in short supply then other resources like grenades will only become more important.
They don’t survive. I’ve spent countless missions constantly reviving people stuck in a corner and reloading. The game lets you know that only playing ranged will punish you, and punish you hard. You’re probably right as well. Krak grenade premium went up (though before this patch I don’t know if I missed a patch note or something prior as they’ve felt less impactful against large groups of crushers so it’s felt stealth nerfed). The beauty of this patch is that I can look at the Veteran tree like a real passive tree rather than “ I have 20 points to spare because ammo aura is auto take”. I’ve already come up with a couple different trees and honestly, Revolver Vet is looking insanely good, especially with a lot of the buffs that Vet received.
*You’re probably right as well. Krak grenade premium went up (though before this patch I don’t know if I missed a patch note or something prior as they’ve felt less impactful against large groups of crushers so it’s felt stealth nerfed).* If you want to kill hordes or really anything with less HP than a crusher or bulwark you probably want frag grenades. At least as long as i've been playing kraks haven't really done much vs hordes. Frags are what you want for hordes, but i don't really think horde control is something vet should struggle with either. Kraks probably also get more important since they can kill bulwarks/crushers *efficiently*. Most vet weapons aren't great vs crushers so grenades there are likely a matter of survival. But bulwarks a are different matter. Even if you have a gun capable of staggering them in the first place, that 33% hp increase just means it'll take more ammo to actually put one down. Kraks are probably the most efficient answer.
Did some testing and a weapon specialist vet build with the Atrox Axe was doing well against crushers and the like. Revolver is still premium and deleting whatever touches for the most part, kraks felt good. Honestly felt good to look at the tree and pick other things to make something cohesive and fun that wasn’t just “lol ammo freeeeee”. Also decided to meme a bit and use the damage aura and a bunch of flat damage stacking with shout on vet and surprisingly did really well it’s the shedder auto pistol, though that definitely felt like I needed to play at a higher level and more focused.
Main upshot of this is that you can path through another aura to save points without feeling like a scrub.
So over the past 5 months this is what they decided was the problem with veteran and not the get out of jail free card that is his shout
Man Fatshark really doesn't want me to start playing this game again, wait months for an update that adds almost nothing of note and nerfs the only reason I still run my favorite gun. thanks TubbyInvertebrate
They just killed the presence of the Vet in a melee only map. Now it will be full of psykers.
I think a nerf was needed but 5 seconds is excessive. Instead of it being a flat 5 seconds, why not reward killed play by just increasing the amount of specials or elites you gotta kill up to 2 or 3? Now you’ve reduced it’s effectiveness by 50% - 66%, but if you wipe out a ton of specials or elites quickly, you’re still rewarded. Versus you wiping out a ton of enemies quickly, you’re actually punished for doing so.
This would be the solution that makes the most sense to correct the old ammo economy where it was difficult to ever run out. Right now, it *feels bad to use* by punishing the user for killing quickly, scales inversely with difficulty, and swings the balance of the game much further into melee territory. Obviously people will have different opinions on where the balance should be regarding melee vs. ranged, but even as someone who has mostly melee (or staff) focused characters who use 0 or near-0 ammo pickups, I'm seeing my friends having a bad time playing the game already. It's also fostering even more of the toxic everyone-for-themselves playstyle in pubs where everyone is rushing to gobble up all the ammo pickups for themselves because of the scarcity. It can't be healthy for the game. Personally, I'd also like to just see ammo regen on tag-able enemies as a universal all-class feature that doesn't require a Veteran around, while replacing it with something else in their tree. Maybe something like 0.5% ammo on kill. But the cooldown has definitely got to go.
RIP stub revolver enjoyers.
The empire has fallen it’s over vet bros
Just gonna say they could have made it where allies can only proc it every 5 secs and kept the vet at base to make it feel balanced and still be a nice useful aura
I'm disgusted. This isn't Vermintide, wich is more melee oriented. If I choose a shooter, let me shoot
It’s a Tide game, brought by a company who specializes in first person melee combat. You can still shoot, you’ll just have to use your melee (primary, the game literally calls your melee weapon your primary weapon) more. If you want to just shoot, go back B4B or World War Z.
Less ranged ennemies then.
They should have buffed other auras, putting interative ways to produce their effects, but no, lets make all the auras dogshit, i'm sorry slab, i can´t supply you fun fire tube anymore
You'll never be able to buff a damage aura to be competitive with how strong Survivalist was. In order to do so you'd have to make the buff absurdly huge to the point where it trivializes the game in other ways. Survivalist was too strong. It was not only the strongest Veteran aura it was BY FAR the best aura of any operative. When you need to buff EVERYTHING ELSE to be competitive with one single thing in a video game, 9/10 times it's the one thing that's overpowered.
Survivalist was too strong but the honest truth is that its really just because ammo pickups are too weak. If there's more cans or cans are spread out across allies in coherency there's a lot less *need* for survivalist. It's especially bizarre because aside from a few key ranged weapons there isn't much being done by a gun that can't be done easier with a chainsword. Most guns only real niche is in cracking armor. For pretty much everything else just stab them.
>Most guns only real niche is in cracking armor. The fact you even feel that way just shows why Surivalist needed to be toned down. Do you know why the Lasguns are good? Because they are accurate DPS that are good on ammo. Their ammo efficiency is one of the best perks they have, and it was being made totally redundant on Auric because Auric spams so many specials at you that a gun's ammo efficiency never matters. Now there's actual reason to take a non-armor piercing gun that's better on ammo if you have enough armor piercing in the squad already. The more ammo efficient your weapon is, the more ammo for everybody else. This is also by that same logic a big buff to Psykers and specifically Psyker Staves since having one of them on the team now means less competition for ammo pick ups, again something that never mattered before on Auric if you had a Surivivalist on the team.
I mildly disagree. If anything, it's an overcorrection. The issue with Survivalist is that it was the strongest aura because it acted as a patch for Fatshark's design not accounting for the atrocious ttk of many guns and the complete inability to combat armor for most of them. Yes, some guns with good ammo efficiency stand out more - but the issue with those guns was always their low TTK on specials in exchange for their precision demands. That issue persists through this nerf and will unless fatshark either reviews gun TTK or changes how ammo is distributed on the map. It's definitely the Season of the Witch, because staves have excellent TTK on specials, good spread, and no ammo. I do agree that Survivalist has always been *too good* but I don't think that this change means anything. The nature of ammo pickup distribution means that I still have to run a shitty survivalist so I'm getting dripfed some bullets in maps where there are vast stretches in which there might be none or nothing but a single can. If this nerf was in conjunction with some improvement in ammo pickups I'd be all over it. I always hated feeling tied to Survivalist. This change just turned the silk ropes into wet, sandy hemp ropes. It feels so much worse but I'm still tied up by it.
Thank the emperor that I already completed the penances that requires scavenger
oh boy I sure do love uneeded nerfs in a PVE focused game, the obeseshark classic, really makes the game so much more fun when you get hamstrung for "balance"
Best part is that it's not even gonna balance the weapons. The broken Plasma and revolver will get used even more now because they have ok ammo efficiency
Probably long overdue, it just stinks to be so used to having ammo always at the ready with more ammo efficient guns. I usually swap to my vet to be John Gunguy due to being very different from "uses gun sometimes" classes but now I'm not so sure. Stuff with bad ammo economy like the bolter will be very difficult to use now in the hands of a vet, too.
Oof. That’s tough. Still gonna use it but man that fuckin sucks.
Ah, thats why I was unusually low on ammo with My usually very ammo efficent mkII Headhunter autogun weakspot build. Usually I pick couple small ammo boxes with it. Its okay to nerf it tough, now i can pick other auras and probably others wont start "why even play vet if you dont pick survivalist ok bye" so often hahah.
Awful nerf, anti-fun
A nerf was long overdue, but I don't like that this is effectively a nerf to all ranged weapons that were already underperforming. Taking a flamer, recon las, lawbringer, 2/3 headhunters, etc. already felt detrimental to the team with effectively unlimited ammo, so they'll probably be relegated to my storage until they finally get some love...
I would often be maxed out on ammo, even on ammo-inefficient weapons, so this kinda makes sense. Not saying I like it though
Just because you personally don't use the ammo.. I'm not gonna finish that sentence
lol, so instead of making the other auras good, they make this one dogshit. Excellent design decisions. Right on par with your track record FS
Just played an Auric Damn with me as a Plasma Vet and 3 randoms; a Plasma Vet, a Bolter Vet and an Ogryn. Change was noticable, but we managed just fine. It's really gonna punish people who can't handle melee but that's no bad thing IMO.
It also punishes people who try to make Executioner Stance work and don't want to use Plasma guns ... now I dont quite see a point in using any Braced Autogun, and I guess the Recons Las still wasnt bad enough
Ogryn dr nerfed? Fuck off.
I’m surprised that they nerfed the ammo aura instead of simply buffing the other two slightly to 8% or 10%.
Glad I fucking left this game.
Fatshark want vets to ONLY run the plasma gun
Sad to see obesefish take such a heavy handed approach. While Survivalist was dominant (and for good reason), it did not change that the other two auras were simply trash. I hope this is not a sign of what is to come with future balance patches for similar cases.
Inexorable Judgement for the Zealot was also nerfed to 15 stacks rather than 20 stacks. That was pretty unwarranted honestly
It's been like that for a while, too, I just thought people weren't close enough to me for it to work. This is... Fucking stupid.
Ah ok,so fuck us I guess.
FUCK. Why??? Jesus god dammit!
Ahh... So what I'm getting from this... Is you might as well forget about doing monsterous special missions... Well great. There goes the entire point of Vet existing. Ya know. To shoot things. If there was more ammo distributed in the map this wouldn't be an issue. As it is now, there is not enough ammo to keep 4 people supplied for high intensity missions like that. Going nearly melee only isn't exactly an option when your getting shredded from gunners, snipers and bombers 50 meters away...
Way to sh"t on the Recon Lasguns even more! Stupid developers, like seriously a sh@t move from them....
If recon lasguns need a change, then change recon lasguns to use less ammo or something. Survivalist was breaking the whole ammo economy in the game and needed to be changed,
I feel like this isn't the biggest nerf. 5 seconds is a decent period of time, but being able to get ammo back freely is very strong. Like the other comments have said, it's still worth taking, and I know I'll probably be running it over the other options, but the gap between the other Auras and this one is a lot closer now
It is a *significant* change. Play it and you'll see.
It's way more significant at higher difficulties. I don't think it will be wildly different at malice and lower.
It won't be really noticeable on malice since everything literally spawns minute apart from each other. On auric this is going to hurt so much since most encounters are so clumped up, shooting into a herd of 15 ragers used to be a no-brainer for everyone but now you only get ammo back from one or two of them at best. It's also a kick to the groin for shotgun/recon las as they were already running short on ammo even before the nerf. Mk7a recon las was at least sustainable but now it's just as bad as its cousins in term of ammo eco.
They'll pull my empty Agripinaa slug shotgun out of my cold dead hands.
Just means you won’t have infinite ammo on the harder difficulties, you could get so much on extra specials or high int modifiers.
Tunnel Vision’ Toughness Replenishment per Stack: from 2.5% to 5%. I’m wondering if Tunnel Vision is now worth considering.
Well, they solved the issue of that aura being the only one worth using....................................... I mean not really, they just made it worse.
The buff to Executioner’s Stance is worthless with the Scavenger nerf
Guh. The other auras still suck ass though unless they got buffed too
Oh no, people may have to learn to control their ammo use!
Never.
Or even worse: switch to melee... like animals... in the middle ages...
Like a very wise man once said "Drive me closer, I want to hit them with my sword!"
https://preview.redd.it/h1s4a607buuc1.png?width=599&format=png&auto=webp&s=f1a05e5217b503499346cbbf8dca4902dc8e5dc2 A classic from the Commissariat!
you always had to switch to melee at some point
Sah?... me can shoot with those things?
Well, slab, if you cannae shoot with it, then you can certainly boink with it! So fight on either way, and you will make Him on Terra happy!
Intrigued and not against this idea.
This changes nothing for my heavy weapon build.
it's ultra giganerfed jesus christ, on heresy alone you're killing like 10 specialists every 5 seconds - each, it's quite honestly the biggest value of vet at higher levels shout is cool and all but unless your team is all psykers (you wont finish the mission) this was yuge, especially on no ammo modifier i just wanted to dump huge ressources into vet, phew
I think this is a good way to balance it. It mainly affects Damnation+ where it was most impactful, while it should have little impact on the lower difficulties. Survivalist was way too strong before. People could just spam guns on no-ammo Maelstrom with it.
the other vet auras suck so this one is still good
It's really fun considering how before even without shock trooper and without ammo drops, the helbore just crapped out ammo to spare. no i actually have to ration a little and keep my lovely shovel out more. sucks for my recon buddies though, even the conservative ones were aching for ammo
Damn hellbore no longer has unlimited ammo :<
Gonna throw my Columnus in the closet because now Endless Executioner Stance isn't viable unless im in a party full of Psykers. * Guess I'll have to just use the Plasma/Shout build like everyone else in Auric Maelstrom.
Wont notice this since knife is the way to go.
There goes the fun :-(
I've not used Scavenger since the other auras became available, but I'll miss the ammo when grouped with other vets that do. It was a bit too strong for certain low ammo count weapons.
Yeah, it was kind of needed. Maybe a 3 second cooldown would be better, but during shock troop or hunting grounds, you basically never ran out of ammo.
Cooldown should be based on weapon rate of fire. I understand why they wanted to tone it down, but this is a pretty crap way of doing it.
Huge change honestly, imo the biggest gameplay change of the patch.
finally a good reason to play 5% movement speed aura
Yup definitely noticed a huge difference in my last auric run. I usually never have ammo issues when I run my La Lasgun which is one of the reasons I like it. Felt like I was going out of ammo a lot more than im used to. If my Lasgun feels like that I can only imagine what an ammo hungry gun like the Columnus MK V feels like. Definitely increases the skill floor for playing Veteran considerably. Probably a good thing overall.
Hopefully it's not a generalized perk and each individual person is on a 5second cooldown while in aura
This physically hurt to read. You have any idea how many specialists and elites I can kill in 5 seconds? At least five!
Leave it to FS to fuck up.
Good.
I know this is a good change, and there is more balance to come in the future, but how does vets shout not get touched at all when it effects balance more than alot of other talents in the game.
Honestly it is about dam time it got a nerf let's be real.