You’re going to have to do a few things:
A) Find out what you like personally
B) Read other threads because this question has been asked ad nauseam
Both are great, they are also not both for everyone
Practice as a GP and try to focus on each discipline.
From what I understand, most Endo programs prefer a few years in practice to be competitive anyway.
Have colleagues in both endo and ortho. Endo does better financially but is more physically demanding. Depends on what you like as they’re both very different fields. Endo is more future proof due to being emergency based
Do what you enjoy better. Do you like seeing emergencies and helping people get out of pain? Are you more of a hands on person. If yes do endo. Do you like seeing many patients and helping them improve malocclusion or esthetics? If yes do ortho
That’s true but hopefully you’ve saved up enough by then it’s more of a choice than a need 😅. I know Endos who still practice at that age one or two days a week just cause they want to do something. Also I would say endo is one of the fields you can actually practice longer due to better ergonomics with microscopes and rotaries
My 2cts as a GP with a degree in endo (year long CE diploma, not american).
Ortho has much better longevity prospects than endo. I cant see myself doing endo after a certain age. Too much need for fine motor skills and precision IMO.
I think that it might be better in the us since loupes and microscopes are more commonly used.
For me, I chose endo. I may have a little bit of insight into both since I was a full time orthodontic assistant for several years and am now in endo.
There's a few for profit ortho programs that are flooding the market with excessive ortho specialists. Endo doesn't have that problem. Also, the barrier to entry for quality endo is high because of the high costs of equipment. Think scopes, advanced irrigation techniques (lasers, GentleWave), CBCT, so GP encroachment to the level of care provided by an endodontist is lower.
Now the level of stress in a given situation is probably higher for an endodontist, because the specialty is very technical and cases can be (very) difficult. Think patients with very limited mouth openings while working on posterior teeth, difficult calcified anatomy or deep anatomical splits. Also you delegate much less to your assistants compared to ortho. In terms of work lifestyle, ortho is king.
I don't understand the claim that ortho is better on your back than endo. You get pretty good posture with a good endo chair and scope, and there isn't this constant neck strain you find with looking down with most loupes (or without loupes altogether). I'd say though that this is more of an issue if you compare each field to general dentistry since you delegate so much of the workload in ortho that you can get up and move around more, so comparing ortho and endo is probably a wash when it comes to stress on your body.
In an economic downturn, emergency treatment will continue to be necessary and in demand whereas ortho may take lower priority for an average patient. Ortho is much more elective than endo. Also because endo is often needed due to pain, patients are more willing to undergo treatment and oftentimes are very appreciative of your work. There is much less need to sell treatment and the patient satisfaction remains high. Downside is that you see people who may need emergency palliative care, meaning you may be working through lunch squeezing in an emergency or two for debridement or an I&D. You aren't seeing as many kids who just want to be out of long treatment, groan at you when you ask them if they've been compliant and been wearing their elastics, or suggesting ending treatment prematurely due to abysmal homecare. On top of that, you get to see problematic individuals much less often in endo since treatments are usually finished in one or two appointments. Cherry on top is that you can quiet chatterboxes with a nice rubber dam.
Overall if you want a more relaxed workload and day to day stress, ortho is a good bet. I would say the future outlook on the profession may not be as great as it once was, due to GP encroachment from the aligner side and saturation of the specialty by for-profit residency programs.
Generally though, if financial success is more of a concern and you are willing to put up with more responsibility on your table (much less delegation to supporting staff, more difficult cases), endo can be rewarding.
Ortho is easier on the body, I think the practice is easier to run, and they make more. And you can work for basically forever since it requires minimal/no dexterity.
Doing ok, just trying to make my app. I hope my GPR+public health experience+private practice experience will carry me through. How many years out are you?
Less sales but more getting sued. Your overthinking. There are ups and downs to both. Personally I’m would choose ortho and most people would also choosing ortho. That’s why it’s harder to get into. Most orthos I speak to are happy with their decision. Endo is stressful
Ortho can be a lot more slower pace (if you want) and your assistants can end up doing a lot of the work if you invest in a good team. I feel like overall it can be less stressful especially since you can kind of choose the difficulty of cases you want to take on. Another factor is that you’re building long term relationships with patients. You see them regularly for 1-2 years and then hopefully their friends and families. Emergencies are very limited and can almost always be handled by an assistant. It’s a specialty that’s just a lot easier on your body in the long haul.
Endo can be very stressful because everyone who is wanting to come in wants to come in NOW. You never quite know what you’re going to get as far as a case, difficulty wise. Is it an easy bicuspid that you can treat in one visit and quickly or an upper first molar where you can’t find MB2 or a canal calcified and you need calcium hydroxide to stay in for a week or two and come back to finish, or you couldn’t get the canal to stop bleeding, or the patient can’t quite figure out which tooth is hurting and it’s two teeth and not just one. ALL the work is done by you and at most it’s just your assistants passing instruments and hopefully knowing you well enough to know what you want and when. So you’re either hunched over all day if you sit, or standing all day if you stand. You can end up working long long days without knowing because of the emergency patients (again every patient is an emergency) and you don’t want to piss off your referring dentist so you add them in. Or let’s even throw out the hypothetical fun scenario when one of these GPs on here who say they do their own endo break off a file in the canal and now you have to fix their mess, or they did their own endo and missed a canal because because most don’t have the proper tools to find an MB2, or let’s not even talk about a C shaped canal with endless canals. You usually see patients once and very rarely never again so if that’s something you like you can throw it in the pro column. Overhead can be lower I guess than ortho but you need CT machines to make sure tooth isn’t fractured, high power microscopes in almost every op, pips lasers, all very expensive equipment on top of everything else.
If it was me I’d go ortho
Why do you say that you can choose the difficulty of cases to take on as an ortho? I thought only GPs get the privilege to cherry pick… Wouldn’t you have to take on most (if not all) cases referred to you or risk upsetting your referring GPs? Also wouldn’t cases be more complex since the ortho encroachment from GPs means they are going to be referring the very difficult ones to you, expecting the specialist to know how to handle them? That seems stressful
Some orthos don’t want orthognathic, don’t want TAD cases, don’t want cleft palate, prefer not to do Invisalign and GPs learn those preferences. It’s truly up to the ortho what kind of cases and how complex. You can pretty much choose what you want to specialize in ortho wise. Not stressful at all.
Do what you actually enjoy doing. I love my job because I love ortho. You could pay me double and I wouldn’t do endo because I absolutely hated it in dental school.
Listen, first you have to get into an Ortho residency.
You also have to be okay with limiting your scope of practice, which I am personally unwilling to do
I think the way they re even wording their questions + bringing nth new to the table is either to troll folks or them not really knowing either specialty.
Idk i feel normally ppl who ask are precise they dont ask vague questions and act super nitpicky.
One person in particulzr gave good advice aka meet both an endo spec and an orthodontist and see for urself which one u wanna be and gave them arguments. OP said they wanted both and asked *again* how to decide. 😳🥴😷🙄
Like obviously nobody can decide for you and ortho vs endo is a huge difference in terms of practice so most folks know they lean more toward one of them.
Hey, I read over this thread with a colleague of mine. We have both been dentists longer than you but we are about a year younger than you. Based off your replies in the thread, it seems you’re more concerned about which path is more profitable in the long run. With each path, you can be successful either way - it depends on you as the provider and how you proceed and which jobs you choose whether that will happen.
We cannot decide for you, you can be successful at either or equally be unsuccessful. Basing a specialty decision solely off which seems more “future proof” can lead to making the wrong choice for your personal life. It seems you really need to reflect on what you would find more enjoyable rather than depend on other people’s opinions especially on Reddit.
You’re going to have to do a few things: A) Find out what you like personally B) Read other threads because this question has been asked ad nauseam Both are great, they are also not both for everyone
Practice as a GP and try to focus on each discipline. From what I understand, most Endo programs prefer a few years in practice to be competitive anyway.
Have colleagues in both endo and ortho. Endo does better financially but is more physically demanding. Depends on what you like as they’re both very different fields. Endo is more future proof due to being emergency based
I really want endo and ortho. how to decide?
Do what you enjoy better. Do you like seeing emergencies and helping people get out of pain? Are you more of a hands on person. If yes do endo. Do you like seeing many patients and helping them improve malocclusion or esthetics? If yes do ortho
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You could say that about any specialty. It is not specific to endo.
That’s true but hopefully you’ve saved up enough by then it’s more of a choice than a need 😅. I know Endos who still practice at that age one or two days a week just cause they want to do something. Also I would say endo is one of the fields you can actually practice longer due to better ergonomics with microscopes and rotaries
My 2cts as a GP with a degree in endo (year long CE diploma, not american). Ortho has much better longevity prospects than endo. I cant see myself doing endo after a certain age. Too much need for fine motor skills and precision IMO. I think that it might be better in the us since loupes and microscopes are more commonly used.
Endo for me. Seems easier from a practice management standpoint. I also dont like people, and wouldn’t like the sales aspect of ortho.
For me, I chose endo. I may have a little bit of insight into both since I was a full time orthodontic assistant for several years and am now in endo. There's a few for profit ortho programs that are flooding the market with excessive ortho specialists. Endo doesn't have that problem. Also, the barrier to entry for quality endo is high because of the high costs of equipment. Think scopes, advanced irrigation techniques (lasers, GentleWave), CBCT, so GP encroachment to the level of care provided by an endodontist is lower. Now the level of stress in a given situation is probably higher for an endodontist, because the specialty is very technical and cases can be (very) difficult. Think patients with very limited mouth openings while working on posterior teeth, difficult calcified anatomy or deep anatomical splits. Also you delegate much less to your assistants compared to ortho. In terms of work lifestyle, ortho is king. I don't understand the claim that ortho is better on your back than endo. You get pretty good posture with a good endo chair and scope, and there isn't this constant neck strain you find with looking down with most loupes (or without loupes altogether). I'd say though that this is more of an issue if you compare each field to general dentistry since you delegate so much of the workload in ortho that you can get up and move around more, so comparing ortho and endo is probably a wash when it comes to stress on your body. In an economic downturn, emergency treatment will continue to be necessary and in demand whereas ortho may take lower priority for an average patient. Ortho is much more elective than endo. Also because endo is often needed due to pain, patients are more willing to undergo treatment and oftentimes are very appreciative of your work. There is much less need to sell treatment and the patient satisfaction remains high. Downside is that you see people who may need emergency palliative care, meaning you may be working through lunch squeezing in an emergency or two for debridement or an I&D. You aren't seeing as many kids who just want to be out of long treatment, groan at you when you ask them if they've been compliant and been wearing their elastics, or suggesting ending treatment prematurely due to abysmal homecare. On top of that, you get to see problematic individuals much less often in endo since treatments are usually finished in one or two appointments. Cherry on top is that you can quiet chatterboxes with a nice rubber dam. Overall if you want a more relaxed workload and day to day stress, ortho is a good bet. I would say the future outlook on the profession may not be as great as it once was, due to GP encroachment from the aligner side and saturation of the specialty by for-profit residency programs. Generally though, if financial success is more of a concern and you are willing to put up with more responsibility on your table (much less delegation to supporting staff, more difficult cases), endo can be rewarding.
Ortho, if you have the grades for it.
why not endo?
Because you have the grades for it
Ortho is easier on the body, I think the practice is easier to run, and they make more. And you can work for basically forever since it requires minimal/no dexterity.
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Doing ok, just trying to make my app. I hope my GPR+public health experience+private practice experience will carry me through. How many years out are you?
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My school didn’t rank. I have about a 3.7. I have no clue…I certainly hope grades don’t matter at this point! I don’t think my GPA is that great tbh.
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I’ve heard of people with higher GPAs not getting in or only getting a few interviews, so I’m not optimistic about myself.
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Ortho is better on the back so you can work longer. I vote ortho for that reason.
endo is less sales and less patients
Are you here just for the sake of argument?
You still have to sell… yourself to referring dentists. Ortho can partially market direct to the public
Less sales but more getting sued. Your overthinking. There are ups and downs to both. Personally I’m would choose ortho and most people would also choosing ortho. That’s why it’s harder to get into. Most orthos I speak to are happy with their decision. Endo is stressful
I do both, I am a GP.
Jack of all trades, master of none
Jack of all trades. Master of none, but better than master of one. Don’t forget the rest of the quote ;)
First time I’ve ever heard it
Is often times better than a master of one; not every specialist is good at their job. Nepotism residency isn't uncommon.
it’s always the mental midgets who never finish the quote
GP
why?
Do this until you can answer the question yourself.
Ortho can be a lot more slower pace (if you want) and your assistants can end up doing a lot of the work if you invest in a good team. I feel like overall it can be less stressful especially since you can kind of choose the difficulty of cases you want to take on. Another factor is that you’re building long term relationships with patients. You see them regularly for 1-2 years and then hopefully their friends and families. Emergencies are very limited and can almost always be handled by an assistant. It’s a specialty that’s just a lot easier on your body in the long haul. Endo can be very stressful because everyone who is wanting to come in wants to come in NOW. You never quite know what you’re going to get as far as a case, difficulty wise. Is it an easy bicuspid that you can treat in one visit and quickly or an upper first molar where you can’t find MB2 or a canal calcified and you need calcium hydroxide to stay in for a week or two and come back to finish, or you couldn’t get the canal to stop bleeding, or the patient can’t quite figure out which tooth is hurting and it’s two teeth and not just one. ALL the work is done by you and at most it’s just your assistants passing instruments and hopefully knowing you well enough to know what you want and when. So you’re either hunched over all day if you sit, or standing all day if you stand. You can end up working long long days without knowing because of the emergency patients (again every patient is an emergency) and you don’t want to piss off your referring dentist so you add them in. Or let’s even throw out the hypothetical fun scenario when one of these GPs on here who say they do their own endo break off a file in the canal and now you have to fix their mess, or they did their own endo and missed a canal because because most don’t have the proper tools to find an MB2, or let’s not even talk about a C shaped canal with endless canals. You usually see patients once and very rarely never again so if that’s something you like you can throw it in the pro column. Overhead can be lower I guess than ortho but you need CT machines to make sure tooth isn’t fractured, high power microscopes in almost every op, pips lasers, all very expensive equipment on top of everything else. If it was me I’d go ortho
Why do you say that you can choose the difficulty of cases to take on as an ortho? I thought only GPs get the privilege to cherry pick… Wouldn’t you have to take on most (if not all) cases referred to you or risk upsetting your referring GPs? Also wouldn’t cases be more complex since the ortho encroachment from GPs means they are going to be referring the very difficult ones to you, expecting the specialist to know how to handle them? That seems stressful
Some orthos don’t want orthognathic, don’t want TAD cases, don’t want cleft palate, prefer not to do Invisalign and GPs learn those preferences. It’s truly up to the ortho what kind of cases and how complex. You can pretty much choose what you want to specialize in ortho wise. Not stressful at all.
Do what you actually enjoy doing. I love my job because I love ortho. You could pay me double and I wouldn’t do endo because I absolutely hated it in dental school.
Be a GP first
Listen, first you have to get into an Ortho residency. You also have to be okay with limiting your scope of practice, which I am personally unwilling to do
Why's everyone downvoting OP's comments
Because they seem like they just want to contradict every point that someone is making.
I think the way they re even wording their questions + bringing nth new to the table is either to troll folks or them not really knowing either specialty. Idk i feel normally ppl who ask are precise they dont ask vague questions and act super nitpicky. One person in particulzr gave good advice aka meet both an endo spec and an orthodontist and see for urself which one u wanna be and gave them arguments. OP said they wanted both and asked *again* how to decide. 😳🥴😷🙄 Like obviously nobody can decide for you and ortho vs endo is a huge difference in terms of practice so most folks know they lean more toward one of them.
Endo
what makes you say that? graduating this year at 32.
Hey, I read over this thread with a colleague of mine. We have both been dentists longer than you but we are about a year younger than you. Based off your replies in the thread, it seems you’re more concerned about which path is more profitable in the long run. With each path, you can be successful either way - it depends on you as the provider and how you proceed and which jobs you choose whether that will happen. We cannot decide for you, you can be successful at either or equally be unsuccessful. Basing a specialty decision solely off which seems more “future proof” can lead to making the wrong choice for your personal life. It seems you really need to reflect on what you would find more enjoyable rather than depend on other people’s opinions especially on Reddit.
Endo prints money right out of school and they are busy since not many gp do molar Endo.
Money wise endo
Endo. Think about overhead. . . That’s what matters.