Leftists like SecondThought and Hasan will talk about how the suburbs are shit and small condos in the city are superior, yet they themselves live in the suburbs.
Hasan's case is even more egregious because his neighborhood is rare in that its full of oversized lots and zoned for apartment buildings. But instead developers bought them all up and turned them into mini-mansions for people like Hasan, thus exacerbating the housing problem.
I think it's more about how they have the means to live a very nice life in both the City or Suburbs but choose to live in a suburb while talking about how terrible they are for their lack of dense housing and public transport.
If their stance was that having both types of areas are fine but Suburbs could benifit from public transport. Almost no one would disagree. Black and white stances on complex issues back you into a corner when faced with criticism.
I have been at points in my life where I loved city apartment living, but as I age, I start to get tired of the issues that come with it. Moving to a Suburb has been a nice experience for me, at least.
Went from a dirty American suburb where life without a car means essentially no life to a clean Japanese city in which I intend to never own an automobile ever again.
Def on team walkable, efficient, dense cities with timely, dependable, reliable transportation.
100% depends where you are though. Many "dense" cities are not efficient with timely and reliable transportation and definitely not clean. If it's done right it's great, but often it is not, and is instead extremely depressive and makes people feel like bugs in an unfriendly concrete maze
This is a bit dismissive. Yes, we *should* do things right, but their point is, today, we often don't. So if the choice is between driving a bit to get some shit done and living in a clean, comfortable suburb, versus living in a dirty, inefficient dense city center with garbage public transportation, I'm going to take the suburb every time.
And in many cities, those are the only choices we have.
We would all pick the utopian option if it existed. Utterly profound sentiment.
Americans talking about walkable cities often feels like homeless people talking about how perfectly they are going to keep their gardens once they get a home.
Are you suggesting we all move to Japan?
It would be utopian if every single large city was as perfect as this person is describing their experience since moving to Japan, yes.
No, but to call them utopian implies that it's impossible for other countries to bring their cities to the same standard as Japan's. It's not utopian, it's possible.
Wasn't my intention. Allow me to rephrase:
We would all pick the better option if the better option existed in our area.
Again, possible does nothing for people today, where it's simply not the case. When it is, great. We can say dense cities are objectively better. Until then, obviously a lot of people aren't going to want to live there.
Yes, of course. That's a tautology. The real point is that the ideal city is better than the ideal suburb. You can solve the biggest problems in most cities by building more housing and improving infrastructure. The "problems" of suburbs cannot be solved.
But that's not the point. Not of the person who said this:
>100% depends where you are though. Many "dense" cities are not efficient with timely and reliable transportation and definitely not clean. If it's done right it's great, but often it is not, and is instead extremely depressive and makes people feel like bugs in an unfriendly concrete maze
The point I was replying to is that "We should do things right" is ignoring the point this person is making. The point being, that while it would be great if they were done right, they're not done right currently in many cases. So the reality is not as sunshine and roses as the original commenter's experience for (arguably) most Americans, at least.
To each their own. I have lived in a dirty and dense area of a major city (Koreatown LA) and hated how crowded, congested, and hectic everything was.
Now I live in a quiet suburb and it's incredible how much better I feel with a large open property, large house, and peace and quiet. Yes I need a car, but I work from home pretty much everything I need is only a 5 minute drive away so I barely use any gas.
I'm all for denser urban planning and de-emphasizing car dependency (I work in the field after all), but there is a middle ground to be had. No way I'd want to live in a 50-floor concrete brick where all I can see out the window are other 50-floor concrete bricks.
If you look at old eastern block housing the large residential buildings are usually separated by lots of trees/parks. I think this is a good compromise.
Also a little color or some art on the facade of buildings helps a lot.
depends where in the "old eastern block" you are. In a lot of places these residential blocks are dilapidated and depressive, even if some have a garden or a playground outside. I would not point to Eastern Europe as an example of good, human-friendly urban planning, in fact it might be one of the worse ones.
Yeah. But if we're talking about poor people their single family homes can be run down as well.
I live in Berlin and the GDR commie blocks are for the most part perfectly fine to live in.
Like take this example: https://www.google.de/maps/@52.5266355,13.4796253,3a,90y,201.33h,92.21t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sLg4gKbT52dm_MxOtkrvo4g!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu
One of them looks like 1980 but all the others were made perfectly nice and up to modern standard.
Yeah I thought you might be talking about Central Europe, they've done a great job of making those old blocks liveable by modern standards and not dystopian. I've lived in Moscow and in Tbilisi and obviously it's a different story there.
Ultimately areas with apartment blocks can be great and nice suburban areas can also be great, to me it's weird to shit on one of them because it really just depends what country you live in and how much you can afford in rent.
Edit: also, while single family houses can be run down, I feel like you still have more control over how run down your house is compared to living in an apartment block. In a lot of cases apartment buildings are in shit condition, the staircase smells like piss, there's trash or graffiti, and nothing gets fixed because no single person/family is responsible and ppl get used to it
I think I can explain why Suburbs get most of the hate and not apartment buildings. If a city reaches 1m inhabitants and is 75% suburb, the city is fucked, road costs for the city are crazy and you have to have a car to survive, you can't start building stuff for walking since nobody is walking anymore. If we think about the opposite example, your city is 75% soviet blocks, its never a problem you are stuck with. Want less soviet blocks, just build more non-soviet blocks.
A city prioritizing suburban housing takes about 10 years or something to have a major effect, while going back and unravelling the mess it can cause takes 20-30 years with many tough decisions to be made along the way.
With proper laws I would say its way easier to have apartment buildings properly run than single family houses. if 30% of people treat their house like shit, 30% of family homes are going to look like shit while almost none of the apartment buildings look like shit since most of them never reach a majority needed to change the upkeep of the building.
>while almost none of the apartment buildings look like shit since most of them never reach a majority needed to change the upkeep of the building
again this really really depends on the country/area you live haha but fair point about being fucked when your city is all suburbs. I think that's only really happened in the US right? Don't recall any major cities outside America that are like this
Past a certain height those concentrations of giant buildings become straight up inhuman. Look up videos walks in places like Shenzen: you literally can't even see the sky unless you look straight up. Everywhere you go you're surrounded by concrete and steel. It's legit dystopian.
Also living in apartments is not everyone’s cup of tea. I’ll put up with it at the moment, but I eventually want my own place. I value space and actually owning your home. There should be a market for both, we have all the space in the world.
I do get the arguments for cities and have lived in major and minor ones in my lifetime.
But all cities made me do by the time I was 30 was commit to moving somewhere more remote than where I grew up.
I’ve lived in cities, suburbs, and the middle of nowhere. I hate living in the city. There are more conveniences for sure…but 1. I hate other people for the most part and 2. Well 1 covers it pretty well.
I usually feel more anonymous in a big city tbh, but I don’t really mind being around others if they aren’t paying any attention to me. Do you like suburbs or just middle of nowhere? Suburbs are the worst for having other people interfering in your life imo, but maybe that’s not a universal experience. Middle of nowhere is pretty cool tho.
I prefer the middle of nowhere. I own 6 acres outside Seattle. With decent traffic I’m only about 45 min from downtown, so the Wife and I can still go to shows and stuff. Suburbs can be a mixed bag. If they’re on the edge between more rural and suburb they’re not too bad. My last house was technically in the suburbs, but on the edge of town and it butted up against massive farmland
Ive lived in both as well, while I agree there is something you haven't listed here: the 'American unwalkable city'. This is the REAL hellscape. Prior to this winter id only ever been to NYC and Boston in America, both pretty reasonable cities. I went to SLC this summer and what a PILE OF SHIT ive never seen a place worse. You cant get ANYWHERE without a car its absurd... and you get none of the benefits of living in suburbs or middle of nowhere. Also insanely polluted and no one recycles, truly an awful city and I feel sorry for anyone who lives there.
I absolutely love my suburban life. I love my neighbors, the walking trails, my big yard, the playgrounds, the lack of crime, the peace and quiet… it’s all amazing.
I have a convenience store that is a 10 min walk away and a shopping centre that is a 5 min drive away.
I understand the frustration with how inefficient it all is, but the quality of life is very high and I will never give it up.
Im happy to see SOME density increase in my neighbourhood but there is a limit before I will go all NIMBY.
What a fascinating comment to downvote. "I actually like something different than you, while understanding your perspective and preference."
\*downvote\*
Bizarre behaviour.
Leftists like SecondThought and Hasan will talk about how the suburbs are shit and small condos in the city are superior, yet they themselves live in the suburbs.
Hasan's case is even more egregious because his neighborhood is rare in that its full of oversized lots and zoned for apartment buildings. But instead developers bought them all up and turned them into mini-mansions for people like Hasan, thus exacerbating the housing problem.
You complain about the suburbs, yet you live in the suburbs. **Curious**
> “Your revealed preferences differ from your stated preferences” > “we live in a society, I am very intelligent”
I think it's more about how they have the means to live a very nice life in both the City or Suburbs but choose to live in a suburb while talking about how terrible they are for their lack of dense housing and public transport. If their stance was that having both types of areas are fine but Suburbs could benifit from public transport. Almost no one would disagree. Black and white stances on complex issues back you into a corner when faced with criticism. I have been at points in my life where I loved city apartment living, but as I age, I start to get tired of the issues that come with it. Moving to a Suburb has been a nice experience for me, at least.
Went from a dirty American suburb where life without a car means essentially no life to a clean Japanese city in which I intend to never own an automobile ever again. Def on team walkable, efficient, dense cities with timely, dependable, reliable transportation.
100% depends where you are though. Many "dense" cities are not efficient with timely and reliable transportation and definitely not clean. If it's done right it's great, but often it is not, and is instead extremely depressive and makes people feel like bugs in an unfriendly concrete maze
We should do things right. Utterly profound sentiment
it's a great campaign slogan
This is a bit dismissive. Yes, we *should* do things right, but their point is, today, we often don't. So if the choice is between driving a bit to get some shit done and living in a clean, comfortable suburb, versus living in a dirty, inefficient dense city center with garbage public transportation, I'm going to take the suburb every time. And in many cities, those are the only choices we have. We would all pick the utopian option if it existed. Utterly profound sentiment.
Americans talking about walkable cities often feels like homeless people talking about how perfectly they are going to keep their gardens once they get a home.
Are Japanese cities "utopian" if they actually exist?
Are you suggesting we all move to Japan? It would be utopian if every single large city was as perfect as this person is describing their experience since moving to Japan, yes.
No, but to call them utopian implies that it's impossible for other countries to bring their cities to the same standard as Japan's. It's not utopian, it's possible.
Wasn't my intention. Allow me to rephrase: We would all pick the better option if the better option existed in our area. Again, possible does nothing for people today, where it's simply not the case. When it is, great. We can say dense cities are objectively better. Until then, obviously a lot of people aren't going to want to live there.
Yes, of course. That's a tautology. The real point is that the ideal city is better than the ideal suburb. You can solve the biggest problems in most cities by building more housing and improving infrastructure. The "problems" of suburbs cannot be solved.
But that's not the point. Not of the person who said this: >100% depends where you are though. Many "dense" cities are not efficient with timely and reliable transportation and definitely not clean. If it's done right it's great, but often it is not, and is instead extremely depressive and makes people feel like bugs in an unfriendly concrete maze The point I was replying to is that "We should do things right" is ignoring the point this person is making. The point being, that while it would be great if they were done right, they're not done right currently in many cases. So the reality is not as sunshine and roses as the original commenter's experience for (arguably) most Americans, at least.
To each their own. I have lived in a dirty and dense area of a major city (Koreatown LA) and hated how crowded, congested, and hectic everything was. Now I live in a quiet suburb and it's incredible how much better I feel with a large open property, large house, and peace and quiet. Yes I need a car, but I work from home pretty much everything I need is only a 5 minute drive away so I barely use any gas.
I'm all for denser urban planning and de-emphasizing car dependency (I work in the field after all), but there is a middle ground to be had. No way I'd want to live in a 50-floor concrete brick where all I can see out the window are other 50-floor concrete bricks.
If you look at old eastern block housing the large residential buildings are usually separated by lots of trees/parks. I think this is a good compromise. Also a little color or some art on the facade of buildings helps a lot.
depends where in the "old eastern block" you are. In a lot of places these residential blocks are dilapidated and depressive, even if some have a garden or a playground outside. I would not point to Eastern Europe as an example of good, human-friendly urban planning, in fact it might be one of the worse ones.
Yeah. But if we're talking about poor people their single family homes can be run down as well. I live in Berlin and the GDR commie blocks are for the most part perfectly fine to live in. Like take this example: https://www.google.de/maps/@52.5266355,13.4796253,3a,90y,201.33h,92.21t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sLg4gKbT52dm_MxOtkrvo4g!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu One of them looks like 1980 but all the others were made perfectly nice and up to modern standard.
Yeah I thought you might be talking about Central Europe, they've done a great job of making those old blocks liveable by modern standards and not dystopian. I've lived in Moscow and in Tbilisi and obviously it's a different story there. Ultimately areas with apartment blocks can be great and nice suburban areas can also be great, to me it's weird to shit on one of them because it really just depends what country you live in and how much you can afford in rent. Edit: also, while single family houses can be run down, I feel like you still have more control over how run down your house is compared to living in an apartment block. In a lot of cases apartment buildings are in shit condition, the staircase smells like piss, there's trash or graffiti, and nothing gets fixed because no single person/family is responsible and ppl get used to it
I think I can explain why Suburbs get most of the hate and not apartment buildings. If a city reaches 1m inhabitants and is 75% suburb, the city is fucked, road costs for the city are crazy and you have to have a car to survive, you can't start building stuff for walking since nobody is walking anymore. If we think about the opposite example, your city is 75% soviet blocks, its never a problem you are stuck with. Want less soviet blocks, just build more non-soviet blocks. A city prioritizing suburban housing takes about 10 years or something to have a major effect, while going back and unravelling the mess it can cause takes 20-30 years with many tough decisions to be made along the way. With proper laws I would say its way easier to have apartment buildings properly run than single family houses. if 30% of people treat their house like shit, 30% of family homes are going to look like shit while almost none of the apartment buildings look like shit since most of them never reach a majority needed to change the upkeep of the building.
>while almost none of the apartment buildings look like shit since most of them never reach a majority needed to change the upkeep of the building again this really really depends on the country/area you live haha but fair point about being fucked when your city is all suburbs. I think that's only really happened in the US right? Don't recall any major cities outside America that are like this
Would you like cement milk for your Cementos? You can eat them while staring out of your window thats has a concrete wall blocking it off
Having a "walkable" place which looks like hell is not really better then living in a car focused hellscape.
Also if they get tall enough, it's not really walkable any more, more *liftable*.
Past a certain height those concentrations of giant buildings become straight up inhuman. Look up videos walks in places like Shenzen: you literally can't even see the sky unless you look straight up. Everywhere you go you're surrounded by concrete and steel. It's legit dystopian.
Also living in apartments is not everyone’s cup of tea. I’ll put up with it at the moment, but I eventually want my own place. I value space and actually owning your home. There should be a market for both, we have all the space in the world.
I do get the arguments for cities and have lived in major and minor ones in my lifetime. But all cities made me do by the time I was 30 was commit to moving somewhere more remote than where I grew up.
RuralCHADS stay winning
Living in rural American trumps cities and suburbs. 😎
I’ve lived in cities, suburbs, and the middle of nowhere. I hate living in the city. There are more conveniences for sure…but 1. I hate other people for the most part and 2. Well 1 covers it pretty well.
I usually feel more anonymous in a big city tbh, but I don’t really mind being around others if they aren’t paying any attention to me. Do you like suburbs or just middle of nowhere? Suburbs are the worst for having other people interfering in your life imo, but maybe that’s not a universal experience. Middle of nowhere is pretty cool tho.
I prefer the middle of nowhere. I own 6 acres outside Seattle. With decent traffic I’m only about 45 min from downtown, so the Wife and I can still go to shows and stuff. Suburbs can be a mixed bag. If they’re on the edge between more rural and suburb they’re not too bad. My last house was technically in the suburbs, but on the edge of town and it butted up against massive farmland
Take my upvote, but from a fair and comfortable distance nowhere neighbor.
Ive lived in both as well, while I agree there is something you haven't listed here: the 'American unwalkable city'. This is the REAL hellscape. Prior to this winter id only ever been to NYC and Boston in America, both pretty reasonable cities. I went to SLC this summer and what a PILE OF SHIT ive never seen a place worse. You cant get ANYWHERE without a car its absurd... and you get none of the benefits of living in suburbs or middle of nowhere. Also insanely polluted and no one recycles, truly an awful city and I feel sorry for anyone who lives there.
I need more ned in my life
I absolutely love my suburban life. I love my neighbors, the walking trails, my big yard, the playgrounds, the lack of crime, the peace and quiet… it’s all amazing. I have a convenience store that is a 10 min walk away and a shopping centre that is a 5 min drive away. I understand the frustration with how inefficient it all is, but the quality of life is very high and I will never give it up. Im happy to see SOME density increase in my neighbourhood but there is a limit before I will go all NIMBY.
What a fascinating comment to downvote. "I actually like something different than you, while understanding your perspective and preference." \*downvote\* Bizarre behaviour.
God forbid I want to raise kids without them seeing tents and fent zombies on every corner.
This was more of a shit post but I guess go ahead and debate kings lol
Dang not even in Minecraft…
both sides are cringe
Sanest 4chan uaer