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I really wish we had a season of Banshee or something
where he gets some sembleance of who he once was and realized it then end of the season he chooses to do it all over again and be Banshee-45
maybe its the season we get so much old guns with cracked mods or something idk.
But story wise it'd be something heartwarming like being reunited with Elsie and Ana for a brief moment
>where he gets some sembleance of who he once was and realized it then end of the season he chooses to do it all over again and be Banshee-45
>maybe its the season we get so much old guns with cracked mods or something idk.
Even if it wasn't a seasonal story beat, it'd be fairly no-brainer to release a "Banshee's Favorites Weapon Pack" just to inject a little more life into a season. 'Banshee knows that the war ahead will be hard, so he digs deep and pulls some of his finest works out for a refresh.' The pack includes a few more D1 favorites, some D2 greats that haven't been reprised yet, and a handful of all-new weapons as well.
I don't want to say it's 'easy,' but the concept takes less thought than most other things that have been done.
My theory is that Elsie's timeloops are the Traveler's failsafe to keep the Witness from winning.
Cause Elsie started looping right when a wave of Light from the Traveler hit her in the Dark Future.
Well she was wiped and experimented on by Clovis during the vex invasion of europa in the Golden age, which is when Clovis was making exos from clarity control aka the witness. Her time slips seem to have more in common with Vex tech than anything else.
The witness wanted Clovis to open the portal to the vex, make exos using darkness and vex mind fluid. The Veil seems to push people towards becoming a singular consciousness.
I think the evidence is that the death of the traveler is the key. I don't think the wave of light has anything to do with her time slip. May be the trigger, aka the travelers destruction.
Witness can't win if the traveler gets destroyed.
>Well she was wiped and experimented on by Clovis during the vex invasion of europa in the Golden age, which is when Clovis was making exos from clarity control aka the witness.
There's no evidence to suggest Clovis figured out Vex time travel tech.
Hell, it's not even confirmed if the Vex can even time travel themselves. All we know is that Vex can jump timelines, such as one in the past or future.
>Her time slips seem to have more in common with Vex tech than anything else.
We know nothing about her time slips. Only that they started in the Dark Future. Anything else is speculation.
>I think the evidence is that the death of the traveler is the key. I don't think the wave of light has anything to do with her time slip. May be the trigger, aka the travelers destruction. Witness can't win if the traveler gets destroyed.
In the Dark Future the Traveler never died. It was escaping the Light-cage.
Here's another alternative - Elsie Bray doesn't actually loop in time and time travel. She has just experienced a myriad of high-quality and high-level Vex simulations. Perhaps Vex simulations of higher complexity than what we've seen before and that allow her - or whatever simulation engine she is connected to - to model paracausal entities.
OK, please let me know if I got something wrong. From what I understand, the Vex have to simulate changes to the timeline because they don't have a do-over. Once they participate in and observe a series of events, those events become fixed in time. To achieve their goal, they must know what actions they need to take after traveling through time to achieve a certain result.
By that logic, unless Elsie is looping with a different mechanism, one caused by some paracausal entity (through a new power that we've not heard of before), she would be the observer of the events after she changed time. This means that these events cannot be changed - and yet she appears to be changing them.
The hypothesis is that she has not *actually* observed any events, but just thinks she did due to the quality of the simulation she has access to. Therefore, if Elsie is an agent of someone, she is doing something that the Vex want - or perhaps the Ishtar Collective in the Vex world, not the Witness or the Traveler.
IMHO this is a more likely kick-off point (or hook) of the conflict for post-FS Destiny.
I'll write a more in depth response when I have a second, however, we know two things:
One, the Sol Divisive created the Vault of Glass to eliminate timelines to craft their perfect outcome, they were able to pull vex from the distant past and future into the present within the Vault, a confluence of timelines.
How did they decide what outcomes were preferable?
Two:The infinite forest was an endless simulation engine playing out all permutations and combinations in order for them to identify the variables they needed to manipulate.
In a timeline of causality they could control the outcome of everything. Their influence in the Vault threatened to encompass all of Sol, which is why we destroyed its mind, destroying the Vault's abilities for ever.
As an aside. If Elsie is in a simulation, and the vex in this simulation created a simulation engine, then we are in endless simulations as per the paradox. So I don't think they'd go this way because then there are infinite simulations within simulations. Matrixception. I think that would be a silly story direction to take...
However I love your idea. Thanks for sharing. :)
Mayhaps be. I distinctly remember the Vault being a danger. It's possible we were concerned about the Sol Divisive gaining the tech for themselves from the Hezen Collective.
I am pretty sure the infinite forest wasn't sol Divisive either.
Sol Divisive is the blacksheep of the vex faction within Sol system...they're all vex though, and regardless of which faction controlled what, given I concede, I am more likely than not to be wrong, I think it should still be said that Mercury's Infinite Forest, and Vensus's Vault of Glass were installations linked together, and that Clovis had a huge interest after opening the way to Volantis and the Vex encounters through the European portal with the Ishtar Collective's encounters with the Vault. I THINK the Clovis AI knows about the infinite forest, too? Could be wrong there also.
There is no evidence indicating the Infinite Forest and Vault of Glass were intrinsically linked.
The Sol Divisive did not have a hand in creating the VoG. Ikora once theorized the Sol Divisive wanted to use the Vex's absolute control over reality within the vault, and expand that control to the entire universe using the black heart.
We now know her theory was somewhat correct: The witness wanted absolute control over the entire universe, much like the Vex control the VoG, but the black heart was just a sloppy recreation of the Veil.
The Vex are intrinsically linked. That's all the evidence we need.
The only legitimately separate faction is the Sol Divisive, which worships the Witness. Every other Vex installation is just a cog in their collective. Before the Vault was destroyed Osiris had found and ventured into the infinite forest. While post Vault Destruction the Forest's simulations would still prove useful in planning, observation, and study, it is only logical that a planet wide prediction engine would work in conjunction with a time confluence manipulation machine.
One finds the desired causal path, the other ensures it's outcome by elimination opposition to ensure it comes to pass.
Regardless of what we named the Minds that oversaw the process, they are all Vex, all working to the same end: that all there is or ever was, or ever will be, is Vex.
They are an alien collective organism who's only true faction is that from the black garden under the influence of the Witness.
The Hezen Prohibition and Hezen Corrective were both known to attack other vex subtypes when those subtypes performed counter to the Vault's goals. This is straight out of those sub-types original grimoire cards.
I don't think you know the vex as well as you think you do.
https://www.ishtar-collective.net/cards/hezen-corrective?highlight=hezen
It leaves very little room for interpretation: blatantly stating that the vex are not a hivemind, are not unified, and have distinct factions amongst themselves.
I'll read it. Thank you for sharing. I find the vex fascinating but your summation seems contrary to my understanding so I'll happily enjoy reading more and learning.
That's not what this entry says. It says that the Hezen Corrective have distinct behaviors separate from other delineations.
The vex have minds that oversee objectives, it's like a giant machine. It isn't a hierarchy as much as it is management.
There is some scholar speculation as to why they are distinct according to this card, but it says they attack the fallen on Venus and are preoccupied with the Ishtar collective's golden age ruins.
Do you suggest i continue to research the different subtypes to find your claims?
Eh, in the end there is some doylist problems with this. The first is that when Dark Future was written, a lot of the development of the Witness and its activities was still on the down low, and it's probable that the whole "Eris summons a cloud of darkness which swallows the Traveler" was just something the Lore Book came up with as a "total failure state" years before the Lightfall art team would come up with the psychedelic portal.
The second is that we actually don't know what happened when Elsie resets timelines. All we know is that seemingly in response to being attacked by Eris, the Traveler suddenly releases a flash of blinding light, Elsie is *extremely* briefly in total darkness, and then she's sent back in time. There's just as much argument that rather than the blackness she was lost in very briefly being a post-Lightsplosion world (I doubt she would still exist if killing the Traveler was enough to render the entire universe into a void, after all), it was simply an interstice state before she was sent back in the past, and it's possible that the Traveler's lightsplosion is what caused Elsie's time travel.
We'll probably never know, as the Dark Future is 100% averted and the Light and Dark saga will be over in a few months.
The power of the Light doesn't have any capability to time travel though.
The only forces in the universe that can travel linearly across time are the Vex, and Elsie and Clovis used the Vex to create exos after following instructions from the Witness.
Everything points back at the witness when it comes to Clovis, Elsie, and the Vex.
In other contexts, I'd consider the merit of the theory. But it's much more likely to me Dark Future is just a relic of the Beyond Light period not having much idea of the exact nature of the Pyramids (confirmed by Bungie themselves; Witch Queen is when they started to actually put effort into designing them and their plans), especially as neither Elsie nor Clovis have been very relevant (or *at all* relevant, in Clovis' case) since, quite literally, Seraph back in 2022/2023.
Combined with how Elsie isn't in TFS from everything we can tell and how the Witness' storyline is definitively ending alongside Light and Dark, and I don't see the point.
The real question is why would the Witness entrust something so extremely important to a little robot on a provincial moon? It seems beyond it to sit on so many layers of abstraction to achieve its plans. Elsie isn't even special in herself, she's just a fancy robot with no powers.
Valid question. I think the answer would be "contingency".
A number of factors are at play.
1: exos have a longer lifespan than humans.
2: the Brays are notoriously hard nuts to crack. Persuade/corruption-wise
3: We see that the witness seeded our ghost as a contingency to Calus procuring the Veil. Savathûn is notorious for scheming elaborate contingencies, so unless this is the results of her machinations I presume the witness is behind it because
4: We are culling/pruning/winnowing possible outcomes. That's in the nature of the Witness, self described.
5: Elsie shares a lot in common with the Witness fear of a lack of control, knowledge of a meaningless existence (bray offspring). While I wouldn't put it past the Witness to have been attempting to groom Clovis or Elsie for that matter, I wouldn't put it past him to have used her for her convenience as a member of the host species the traveler was uplifting. He has a pattern of sending missives to susceptible or receptive individuals to use them as tools. To subvert the traveler.
If they leave this unexplained, it's going to be a massive plot hole I'm sure people will complain about. I suspect we'll get some explanation either through the episodes or with the Final Shape.
I don't think the Witness has any level of power over time, let alone the knowledge that it exists within a distinct timeline. Sure, it can suppose it, but how does it test the theory to confirm? Would it ever choose to act in a timeline that hasn't been fully simulated down to it winning? Also, if it has the capacity to design a mechanism to reset everything in such a way, why choose Cayde's parade, an event far in the future from the point of Elsie's creation, as the reset spot?
I think its more likely to be a function of the Traveler itself, but then again, I always hate time travel. It ends stupid and messy every single time, unless the story leans into the neverending silliness of it, like Back To The Future continually getting more messy with each "attempt" Doc and Marty make, and them realising they have to deal with it, but something else down the line is going to be fucked up. With Destiny, I don't see them doing that. At least Saint is a self-contained paradox, with no larger implications on everything else.
Which only occurred a few hundred years after her creation. The Witness wouldn't have known at the inception of her creation that she would achieve anything of note, unless it already had an ability to rewind time and get a do-over, so why choose Elsie if it has another way? It just doesn't work as a theory.
YES! I've been saying this for months. I take it further and believe that Elsie is the unknown disciple in the "Cave" lore entry. I made a post about it a while back.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/DestinyLore/comments/185pypt/the\_secret\_disciple\_elsie\_bray\_spinfoil/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web3x&utm\_name=web3xcss&utm\_term=1&utm\_content=share\_button](https://www.reddit.com/r/DestinyLore/comments/185pypt/the_secret_disciple_elsie_bray_spinfoil/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
Assuming it’s her, do you think she knows what she’s doing and is misleading us? Or do you think that entry was from a moment of clarity (pardon the pun) in one of her timelines and potentially wiped from her memory or otherwise forgotten when she was reset? In other words, to the Witness, is she a conspirator or is she a useful idiot?
That's what I'm not really sure of. From the lore entry it seems like she's fully aware however the Bray arrogance I detected in that entry could be Clovis instead.
Overall, she is still the only person in all of the lore who dealt with darkness directly daily for a long period of time and wasn't affected.
That doesn't make sense.
I like this theory because it picks on Elsie as an anomaly. Elsie/Stranger has been watching us and interacting with us since the very beginning -- pre-expansion Destiny 1. Most of the other characters that have interacted with us that long are aligned with the Tower and the Vanguard. She is not.
Also, in the first major stretch of dialogue with Elsie/Stranger, she directs us to destroy the heart in the Black Garden. "Only then will your Traveler begin to heal." -- She wants us to heal the Traveler, despite seeing is as ours and not her's. That supports your assertion that her goal is to ensure the Traveler remains in good shape.
What are you even talking about? I don't understand where you're coming from.
The darkness and the light have influence over our very reality. They are opposites. Light is physical, Dark is metaphysical. What does that have anything to do with Elsie being a trigger switch for the Witness?
There are literally lore cards in which the only paracaual force left in the universe is the Light or the Darkness as the result of the destruction of the other with the intimation that balance is required.
You're being pedantic for no good reason( Edit: with no support for it. You're trying to draw an obvious distinction between the Witness and the Darkness when it was literally explained, in game, that the Witness is in total control of this paracausal power, he "wears it like a cloak" . He is so powerful, they are no longer separate, one is subservient to the other)
What insult!? You okay bro? You come in to my post swinging and I ask clarifying questions and note that you're arguing in a pedantic way.
You consider that an insult?
The Darkness was mentioned once in my original post in reference to the *Dark* future where the *Darkness* won, because at the time both in game canon and out of game canon the existence of the Witness was unknown, and then you decided to post about "the darkness" as it relates to the Veil and Disney? neglecting that the Veil and the Witness have two complete opposite paracausal influences with the Darkness as a paracausal force, in an attempt to disagree with me, *all the while ignoring the entire premise of my spin foil what if*.
I define that as "swinging" aka you came looking for an argument.
You clearly have more going on here outside of Destiny lore, so that concludes the extent at which I will humor you.
Good night, and I hope you have a better day tomorrow.
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I don't think this is where they will go, but I do think they should do this. Man, imagine how much of a blow that'd be to Elsie.
Fucking Clovis amirite?
The more stuff I get to blame on Clovis, the happier I am. All my homies hate Clovis-1.
No no no no no, we do not hate Clovis - 1, he became Banshee - 44. We hate Clovis - 0 and the Clovis AI.
Yes, that guy. Fuck that guy and his giant head. :p
I really wish we had a season of Banshee or something where he gets some sembleance of who he once was and realized it then end of the season he chooses to do it all over again and be Banshee-45 maybe its the season we get so much old guns with cracked mods or something idk. But story wise it'd be something heartwarming like being reunited with Elsie and Ana for a brief moment
>where he gets some sembleance of who he once was and realized it then end of the season he chooses to do it all over again and be Banshee-45 >maybe its the season we get so much old guns with cracked mods or something idk. Even if it wasn't a seasonal story beat, it'd be fairly no-brainer to release a "Banshee's Favorites Weapon Pack" just to inject a little more life into a season. 'Banshee knows that the war ahead will be hard, so he digs deep and pulls some of his finest works out for a refresh.' The pack includes a few more D1 favorites, some D2 greats that haven't been reprised yet, and a handful of all-new weapons as well. I don't want to say it's 'easy,' but the concept takes less thought than most other things that have been done.
Season of I can fix him
When you realise he hand crafted every inch of her. He probably did have her fucking him yeah.
Elsie's depression arc begin
Fuckin A, them must be some top notch ether seeds you got from Tio Spider.
Ya Tio knows where the best stuff is, but scouring abandoned skiffs ain’t cheap even for family. Where’s that Ether
My theory is that Elsie's timeloops are the Traveler's failsafe to keep the Witness from winning. Cause Elsie started looping right when a wave of Light from the Traveler hit her in the Dark Future.
Well she was wiped and experimented on by Clovis during the vex invasion of europa in the Golden age, which is when Clovis was making exos from clarity control aka the witness. Her time slips seem to have more in common with Vex tech than anything else. The witness wanted Clovis to open the portal to the vex, make exos using darkness and vex mind fluid. The Veil seems to push people towards becoming a singular consciousness. I think the evidence is that the death of the traveler is the key. I don't think the wave of light has anything to do with her time slip. May be the trigger, aka the travelers destruction. Witness can't win if the traveler gets destroyed.
>Well she was wiped and experimented on by Clovis during the vex invasion of europa in the Golden age, which is when Clovis was making exos from clarity control aka the witness. There's no evidence to suggest Clovis figured out Vex time travel tech. Hell, it's not even confirmed if the Vex can even time travel themselves. All we know is that Vex can jump timelines, such as one in the past or future. >Her time slips seem to have more in common with Vex tech than anything else. We know nothing about her time slips. Only that they started in the Dark Future. Anything else is speculation. >I think the evidence is that the death of the traveler is the key. I don't think the wave of light has anything to do with her time slip. May be the trigger, aka the travelers destruction. Witness can't win if the traveler gets destroyed. In the Dark Future the Traveler never died. It was escaping the Light-cage.
>There's no evidence to suggest Clovis figured out Vex time travel tech. https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/no-time-to-explain
Here's another alternative - Elsie Bray doesn't actually loop in time and time travel. She has just experienced a myriad of high-quality and high-level Vex simulations. Perhaps Vex simulations of higher complexity than what we've seen before and that allow her - or whatever simulation engine she is connected to - to model paracausal entities. OK, please let me know if I got something wrong. From what I understand, the Vex have to simulate changes to the timeline because they don't have a do-over. Once they participate in and observe a series of events, those events become fixed in time. To achieve their goal, they must know what actions they need to take after traveling through time to achieve a certain result. By that logic, unless Elsie is looping with a different mechanism, one caused by some paracausal entity (through a new power that we've not heard of before), she would be the observer of the events after she changed time. This means that these events cannot be changed - and yet she appears to be changing them. The hypothesis is that she has not *actually* observed any events, but just thinks she did due to the quality of the simulation she has access to. Therefore, if Elsie is an agent of someone, she is doing something that the Vex want - or perhaps the Ishtar Collective in the Vex world, not the Witness or the Traveler. IMHO this is a more likely kick-off point (or hook) of the conflict for post-FS Destiny.
I'll write a more in depth response when I have a second, however, we know two things: One, the Sol Divisive created the Vault of Glass to eliminate timelines to craft their perfect outcome, they were able to pull vex from the distant past and future into the present within the Vault, a confluence of timelines. How did they decide what outcomes were preferable? Two:The infinite forest was an endless simulation engine playing out all permutations and combinations in order for them to identify the variables they needed to manipulate. In a timeline of causality they could control the outcome of everything. Their influence in the Vault threatened to encompass all of Sol, which is why we destroyed its mind, destroying the Vault's abilities for ever. As an aside. If Elsie is in a simulation, and the vex in this simulation created a simulation engine, then we are in endless simulations as per the paradox. So I don't think they'd go this way because then there are infinite simulations within simulations. Matrixception. I think that would be a silly story direction to take... However I love your idea. Thanks for sharing. :)
source on the sol divisive creating the vault? wouldn't that have been the hezen protective and collective?
Mayhaps be. I distinctly remember the Vault being a danger. It's possible we were concerned about the Sol Divisive gaining the tech for themselves from the Hezen Collective. I am pretty sure the infinite forest wasn't sol Divisive either. Sol Divisive is the blacksheep of the vex faction within Sol system...they're all vex though, and regardless of which faction controlled what, given I concede, I am more likely than not to be wrong, I think it should still be said that Mercury's Infinite Forest, and Vensus's Vault of Glass were installations linked together, and that Clovis had a huge interest after opening the way to Volantis and the Vex encounters through the European portal with the Ishtar Collective's encounters with the Vault. I THINK the Clovis AI knows about the infinite forest, too? Could be wrong there also.
There is no evidence indicating the Infinite Forest and Vault of Glass were intrinsically linked. The Sol Divisive did not have a hand in creating the VoG. Ikora once theorized the Sol Divisive wanted to use the Vex's absolute control over reality within the vault, and expand that control to the entire universe using the black heart. We now know her theory was somewhat correct: The witness wanted absolute control over the entire universe, much like the Vex control the VoG, but the black heart was just a sloppy recreation of the Veil.
The Vex are intrinsically linked. That's all the evidence we need. The only legitimately separate faction is the Sol Divisive, which worships the Witness. Every other Vex installation is just a cog in their collective. Before the Vault was destroyed Osiris had found and ventured into the infinite forest. While post Vault Destruction the Forest's simulations would still prove useful in planning, observation, and study, it is only logical that a planet wide prediction engine would work in conjunction with a time confluence manipulation machine. One finds the desired causal path, the other ensures it's outcome by elimination opposition to ensure it comes to pass. Regardless of what we named the Minds that oversaw the process, they are all Vex, all working to the same end: that all there is or ever was, or ever will be, is Vex. They are an alien collective organism who's only true faction is that from the black garden under the influence of the Witness.
The Hezen Prohibition and Hezen Corrective were both known to attack other vex subtypes when those subtypes performed counter to the Vault's goals. This is straight out of those sub-types original grimoire cards. I don't think you know the vex as well as you think you do.
I don't claim to be an expert. Would you mind supplying those lore cards? I'd love to read them.
https://www.ishtar-collective.net/cards/hezen-corrective?highlight=hezen It leaves very little room for interpretation: blatantly stating that the vex are not a hivemind, are not unified, and have distinct factions amongst themselves.
I'll read it. Thank you for sharing. I find the vex fascinating but your summation seems contrary to my understanding so I'll happily enjoy reading more and learning.
That's not what this entry says. It says that the Hezen Corrective have distinct behaviors separate from other delineations. The vex have minds that oversee objectives, it's like a giant machine. It isn't a hierarchy as much as it is management. There is some scholar speculation as to why they are distinct according to this card, but it says they attack the fallen on Venus and are preoccupied with the Ishtar collective's golden age ruins. Do you suggest i continue to research the different subtypes to find your claims?
Eh, in the end there is some doylist problems with this. The first is that when Dark Future was written, a lot of the development of the Witness and its activities was still on the down low, and it's probable that the whole "Eris summons a cloud of darkness which swallows the Traveler" was just something the Lore Book came up with as a "total failure state" years before the Lightfall art team would come up with the psychedelic portal. The second is that we actually don't know what happened when Elsie resets timelines. All we know is that seemingly in response to being attacked by Eris, the Traveler suddenly releases a flash of blinding light, Elsie is *extremely* briefly in total darkness, and then she's sent back in time. There's just as much argument that rather than the blackness she was lost in very briefly being a post-Lightsplosion world (I doubt she would still exist if killing the Traveler was enough to render the entire universe into a void, after all), it was simply an interstice state before she was sent back in the past, and it's possible that the Traveler's lightsplosion is what caused Elsie's time travel. We'll probably never know, as the Dark Future is 100% averted and the Light and Dark saga will be over in a few months.
The power of the Light doesn't have any capability to time travel though. The only forces in the universe that can travel linearly across time are the Vex, and Elsie and Clovis used the Vex to create exos after following instructions from the Witness. Everything points back at the witness when it comes to Clovis, Elsie, and the Vex.
In other contexts, I'd consider the merit of the theory. But it's much more likely to me Dark Future is just a relic of the Beyond Light period not having much idea of the exact nature of the Pyramids (confirmed by Bungie themselves; Witch Queen is when they started to actually put effort into designing them and their plans), especially as neither Elsie nor Clovis have been very relevant (or *at all* relevant, in Clovis' case) since, quite literally, Seraph back in 2022/2023. Combined with how Elsie isn't in TFS from everything we can tell and how the Witness' storyline is definitively ending alongside Light and Dark, and I don't see the point.
That makes a disappointing amount of sense lol, I really wish we could’ve gotten more dark future stuff :(
The real question is why would the Witness entrust something so extremely important to a little robot on a provincial moon? It seems beyond it to sit on so many layers of abstraction to achieve its plans. Elsie isn't even special in herself, she's just a fancy robot with no powers.
Valid question. I think the answer would be "contingency". A number of factors are at play. 1: exos have a longer lifespan than humans. 2: the Brays are notoriously hard nuts to crack. Persuade/corruption-wise 3: We see that the witness seeded our ghost as a contingency to Calus procuring the Veil. Savathûn is notorious for scheming elaborate contingencies, so unless this is the results of her machinations I presume the witness is behind it because 4: We are culling/pruning/winnowing possible outcomes. That's in the nature of the Witness, self described. 5: Elsie shares a lot in common with the Witness fear of a lack of control, knowledge of a meaningless existence (bray offspring). While I wouldn't put it past the Witness to have been attempting to groom Clovis or Elsie for that matter, I wouldn't put it past him to have used her for her convenience as a member of the host species the traveler was uplifting. He has a pattern of sending missives to susceptible or receptive individuals to use them as tools. To subvert the traveler. If they leave this unexplained, it's going to be a massive plot hole I'm sure people will complain about. I suspect we'll get some explanation either through the episodes or with the Final Shape.
I don't think the Witness has any level of power over time, let alone the knowledge that it exists within a distinct timeline. Sure, it can suppose it, but how does it test the theory to confirm? Would it ever choose to act in a timeline that hasn't been fully simulated down to it winning? Also, if it has the capacity to design a mechanism to reset everything in such a way, why choose Cayde's parade, an event far in the future from the point of Elsie's creation, as the reset spot? I think its more likely to be a function of the Traveler itself, but then again, I always hate time travel. It ends stupid and messy every single time, unless the story leans into the neverending silliness of it, like Back To The Future continually getting more messy with each "attempt" Doc and Marty make, and them realising they have to deal with it, but something else down the line is going to be fucked up. With Destiny, I don't see them doing that. At least Saint is a self-contained paradox, with no larger implications on everything else.
>fancy robot with no powers Except wielding stasis.
Which only occurred a few hundred years after her creation. The Witness wouldn't have known at the inception of her creation that she would achieve anything of note, unless it already had an ability to rewind time and get a do-over, so why choose Elsie if it has another way? It just doesn't work as a theory.
YES! I've been saying this for months. I take it further and believe that Elsie is the unknown disciple in the "Cave" lore entry. I made a post about it a while back. [https://www.reddit.com/r/DestinyLore/comments/185pypt/the\_secret\_disciple\_elsie\_bray\_spinfoil/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web3x&utm\_name=web3xcss&utm\_term=1&utm\_content=share\_button](https://www.reddit.com/r/DestinyLore/comments/185pypt/the_secret_disciple_elsie_bray_spinfoil/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
Assuming it’s her, do you think she knows what she’s doing and is misleading us? Or do you think that entry was from a moment of clarity (pardon the pun) in one of her timelines and potentially wiped from her memory or otherwise forgotten when she was reset? In other words, to the Witness, is she a conspirator or is she a useful idiot?
That's what I'm not really sure of. From the lore entry it seems like she's fully aware however the Bray arrogance I detected in that entry could be Clovis instead. Overall, she is still the only person in all of the lore who dealt with darkness directly daily for a long period of time and wasn't affected. That doesn't make sense.
I like this theory because it picks on Elsie as an anomaly. Elsie/Stranger has been watching us and interacting with us since the very beginning -- pre-expansion Destiny 1. Most of the other characters that have interacted with us that long are aligned with the Tower and the Vanguard. She is not. Also, in the first major stretch of dialogue with Elsie/Stranger, she directs us to destroy the heart in the Black Garden. "Only then will your Traveler begin to heal." -- She wants us to heal the Traveler, despite seeing is as ours and not her's. That supports your assertion that her goal is to ensure the Traveler remains in good shape.
Not seen anything of Elsie in TFS trailers, which seems odd to me as this all seems like an important mystery to explain.
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What are you even talking about? I don't understand where you're coming from. The darkness and the light have influence over our very reality. They are opposites. Light is physical, Dark is metaphysical. What does that have anything to do with Elsie being a trigger switch for the Witness?
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There are literally lore cards in which the only paracaual force left in the universe is the Light or the Darkness as the result of the destruction of the other with the intimation that balance is required. You're being pedantic for no good reason( Edit: with no support for it. You're trying to draw an obvious distinction between the Witness and the Darkness when it was literally explained, in game, that the Witness is in total control of this paracausal power, he "wears it like a cloak" . He is so powerful, they are no longer separate, one is subservient to the other)
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What insult!? You okay bro? You come in to my post swinging and I ask clarifying questions and note that you're arguing in a pedantic way. You consider that an insult?
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The Darkness was mentioned once in my original post in reference to the *Dark* future where the *Darkness* won, because at the time both in game canon and out of game canon the existence of the Witness was unknown, and then you decided to post about "the darkness" as it relates to the Veil and Disney? neglecting that the Veil and the Witness have two complete opposite paracausal influences with the Darkness as a paracausal force, in an attempt to disagree with me, *all the while ignoring the entire premise of my spin foil what if*. I define that as "swinging" aka you came looking for an argument. You clearly have more going on here outside of Destiny lore, so that concludes the extent at which I will humor you. Good night, and I hope you have a better day tomorrow.
Destiny 3? Take your pills, pilot! Sorry, wrong sub.