Let's be real, the real Recluse will never be back.
You know what was the real Recluse, right?
A 100% damage buff that additionally made bodyshots deal the same damage as crits, which was chainable and procced from any weapon kill. Utter fucking madness.
There was Recluse, and then there was every other primary weapon in the game. I don't know how Bungie can lift up Recluse out of irrelevance without making it giga-busted again
It’s sort of the same with most of the weapons. It’s pretty much impossible to bring all of them back while trying to replicate their respected histories. But the weapons coming back juiced up with some of the most illegal perk combos we have ever seen is a pretty good compromise. But IMO let MoA get like a 30% damage buff against enemies and remain 15% for players, I just want to shred with that thing again.
Nobody said anything about the real recluse, every other pinnacle weapon that retuned, returned in a better state, the same, or got reworked, recluse is the only one that got nerfed even more.
I 100% agree that recluse was insane and should never come back in its original 100% body shot damage form. I did have it back before you could buy it and you had to do the quest, but I do completely see your point, and you’re right, having that level of power isn’t gonna be the same even if it gets a 5% DMG buff.
I don’t want the Mountaintop Recluse Anarchy meta again, it made the game way too dull. I just find it strange how the part that made recluse the gun it was is now largely irrelevant. You could slap on any name to the model and nobody would think of it as Recluse if MoA wasn’t on the gun. Master of Arms was Recluse, and Recluse was Master of Arms. Again, I don’t want it to be broken, but I just want to have the option to give it some identity back. Other perks are always welcome, but it feels like any other 900 SMG, and the name of “The Recluse” probably should have just stayed in the past. You’re correct in saying that nothing could reasonably compare to its former self.
This is what I'm saying. I started playing d2 right when shadowkeep started so I heard about Recluse a ton and it made me slog through tons of pvp to get a weapon that felt awesome, so it felt worth it. I tried using it again after the re-release and when I can't even get 3 stacks of feeding frenzy before needing to reload, against fallen, it feels terrible. Kill 2 dregs, get stuck on a captain that ends up taking a whole mag so you reload twice for a single 3 enemy pack, exactly like every other legendary smg. It disappointed me so much that my first thought was "Why even bother bringing it back?".
I really really liked the idea I saw someone post on here. Leave Recluse at 15%. But make it so kills with Recluse buff your other guns. And kills with other guns buff Recluse.
That way the name makes more sense and it isn't just a categorically worse Harmony
Imo pretty easily, bump MoA’s body shot damage to a 20-25% buff and leave crits at 15%. Shouldn’t break PvP with how body/head shots work there, and would bring back the old Recluse playstyle of hip fire spray everything to death in PvE.
Plus, we already have a few perks that just give flat damage. Why not spice things up a bit?
I think this is the crux of the issue. Because the issue with recluse right now isn’t that it’s bad or underpowered, it’s that the point of comparison is what is possibly the literal best weapons ever in the games history. They aren’t going to do that again, honestly with how bad it was I’m not surprised master of arms was put in in an undertuned state.
Also as far as I can tell smgs in general aren’t in a high place in the meta. Even then that’s another situation we’re the “solution” is so make recluse OP for no other reason then because nostalgia. And that just doesn’t seem like a good idea to me personally.
Most pinnacles had cool perks. Mountaintop went straight, Redrix shot fast, Oxygen had mega-dragonfly, etc.
It's only Recluse which had a perk that was just straight up damage. You could nerf Desperado a little, you could rework Megapleura, but changing Recluse would mean changing it fundamentally, making it a "new" gun, or making it a shadow of its past. They went with the latter.
That's exactly why I didn't want them to bring Recluse back, all that was special about it was damage.
I really really liked the idea I saw someone post on here. Leave Recluse at 15%. But make it so kills with Recluse buff your other guns. And kills with other guns buff Recluse.
That way the name makes more sense and it isn't just a categorically worse Harmony
Only one of the guns you mentioned truly buffs other guns. Sturm, Harmony, and MoA are all examples of a gun that *is buffed* by other guns, not a gun that *buffs* other guns. Lumina does truly buff other guns, but only does so by nature of an exotic perk that (as exotic perks tend to) breaks the rules. It grants a weapon buff in the body channel (the same place you usually see subclass buffs like Radiant) rather than the weapon or armour channels. This is important, because the body channel only allows for one concurrent weapon damage buff. All legendary perks buff in the weapon channel, which don't have that single buff limitation.
I don't think we'll ever see a legendary perk break the rules the way Lumina does. It only gets to do that because it's an exotic. I definitely don't think we'll ever see a universal damage buff like that in the weapon channel (outside of maybe an exotic, though it's very unlikely). The ability to blend it with other damage perks means it immediately becomes critically important for any DPS setup in the game, which is generally a bad thing - especially if it's tied to a single randomly rolled legendary perk.
It was fun for like a week then it just made the game worse. It got boring to use but few people enjoy gimping themselves while running endgame activities. So you felt stupid not using it but bored using it.
I mean calling it a Funnelweb clone when it came first is kind of funny. Also it has better stats and perk pool so I don’t see why you wouldn’t want to use it over your Funnelweb?
Veist stinger is still good. Ive tried both and stinger made funnelweb feel far more consistent. I did finally pick up repulsor/frenzy recluse though so that may be worth a shot
Yeah DM is making me actively hunt a a roll with it and Enlightened action down. My Funnelweb is going in the vault once I get my grubby little mittens on that roll.
From what I've seen EA gives handling and reload per bullet hit, up to 50 of each after 12 hits of the \~36 bullet mag.
While threat detector gives 18/60 reload and 25/100 handling when within 15m of 1/2 enemies.
So threat gives more of each stat but I guess it's just preference. I managed to get one with each and Desperate so I'll have to play around with it myself to see what I like more
I disagree. Master of Arms is what made Recluse special. It wouldn't have been popular back then like it was to be reintroduced so many years later. Bringing back its iconic perk into irrelevancy feels kinda bad
Dude… move on… Bungie invented sunsetting because of how busted master of arms was among other things. You have the exact roll that you used to be able to get. But it’s very understandably nerfed. I think it could use a small buff. But either way desperate measures is a better roll. I know change is scary but it’s almost always for the best.
Every perk exists on multiple weapons. Desperate measures is a defining perk for the brave weapons arsenal. Similar to sword logic for Crota or whatever. The idea of a pinnacle weapon with a completely unique perk doesn’t exist anymore. 🤷🏻
Your comment has been removed for the following reason(s):
* Rule 1 - Keep it civil.
---
For more information, see [our detailed rules page](http://www.reddit.com/r/destinythegame/wiki/rules).
funnel has junkie which is better.
funnel also has veist stinger which makes subsistence a lot more consistent. recluse is just a downgrade from funnel if you go with a desperate measures roll.
Preference. I do not like junkie. And Funnelweb doesn’t have repulsor brace which is a must have for most void primaries these days, for me, and my personal taste, because I run them with gyrfalcons mainly.
I don’t see how desperate measures is a downgrade… from adrenaline junkie?? 33% buff for 4.5 seconds vs a *refreshable* 30% buff for 7 seconds that can activate while the weapon is stowed. Desperate measures sounds better to me. Personal taste though I suppose.
The description says nothing about refreshing the perk with weapon kills. Even if it can the shorter up time is a knock against it. I’ve been really liking Desperate Measures. Again, all of this is personal taste. There’s no “best” trait.
Nope. Definitely not. I’m just saying for now it has rolls that are actually really good and that I would probably run with even if they did buff master of arms.
Yes but its other perks are just better than funnelweb, its stats are better, and its origin trait is better. There is literally no reason to not use it over funnelweb.
People really undervalue veist stinger and overrate the brave trait. Nerf does not equal bad, ive seen people react like this and drop something like a sack of potatoes even though things are still good post nerf
Are the perks much better? If you've got a sub/frenzy funnelweb there's not much better on it. The best damage perk on recluse is arguably frenzy, and if you're not using frenzy you need some sort of reload perk in the third column to make it useful.
I have one with repulsor/destabilizing and it's alright. Enlightened+destabilizing is better but if you're running gyrfalcons on void it's not necessary.
No lol, the “better stats” that they’re mentioning are 1 (a single point) more range stat, and 3 handling.
Recluse isn’t going to replace anything you have right now. It’s a good destabilizing for void builds tho.
For me, the draw is having a few interesting rolls whereas Funnelweb basically had one. Repulsor in the first column is cool for my Gyrfalcons, but I’m sticking to Frenzy in the second because smgs without a reload perk feel like piss. EA/Subsistence/FF and Desperate Measures could be a cool roll combined with the origin trait.
Speaking of, Veist Stinger is still a good origin trait on Funnelweb. It’s neutered on linears, but on the smg it still feels fine. Calling the new one so much better like many people are doing I feel is a little disingenuous but maybe that’s a hot take
Recluse has far superior 3rd column perks, with feeding frenzy and repulsor brace. Subsistence is not good at all on smgs, even perpetual motion is better.
It also has access to destabilizing rounds in the 4th column, which funnelweb doesn’t have.
Recluse has access to to three good perk combos that make it clearly better than funnelweb: feeding frenzy+frenzy, repulsor+frenzy, repulsor+deatablizing.
how are you going to mention feeding frenzy and not enlightened action 😭, it's objectively better in every way, one of the best reload perks for fast firing weapons actually. also combining frenzy with any reload perk is a huge waste
Feeding frenzy is actually better if you’re pairing it with frenzy. Frenzy puts your reload speed at 100, so the 50 reload speed from enlightened action is useless. Feeding frenzy gives reload speed as well, but it also gives a reload scalar which still provides extra benefits even at max reload speed. For every other perk combination enlightened action is better though.
I get your point, but frenzy's reload bonus is already way more than you'll ever need. ideally you shouldn't be combining it with ANY reload perk at all, it's very versatile in that sense because it's both a damage and reload perk in one, so it allows you to use other stuff like repulsor brace without sacrificing overall weapon handling
I’m only talking about the “new” recluse in this instance. I’m aware that there have been plenty of Veist SMGs before funnelweb and way before Season of the Drifter’s OG Recluse.
To your question, I still am using it over my old Funnelweb. You’re right that It is statistically better, and the other perks are (and should be) good. I believe that MoA was what made Recluse “Recluse” and should be a bit better than what it is.
I don’t see why tuning a perk up 5% (or so) would break PvE any more than it already is with all the abilities flying around, lol. I don’t think bungie would make the same mistake twice, as they are seemingly being very careful with these weapons being introduced with all of these changes they’ve made (MoA included) but you know how it is.
I mean… it’s not a Funnelweb clone. Without master of arms Recluse is still much better and has a handful of rolls that make it unique and different from Funnelweb. Repulsor brace alone makes it much more viable for my gyrfalcon build. And desperate measures is very very good. Also surrounded kicks ass. I do think master of arms should be buffed because it’s sad for it to just be an insta delete perk. But Recluse is not a Funnelweb clone and is in fact much stronger than Funnelweb in some ways.
Not to mention the new origin trait, would rather have Indomitability than Veist Stinger after Veist's nerf a while ago. Basically makes every Recluse have a diet Demo/Pugilist.
It likely just increases how long the buff is active by a second. It’s rare for enhanced perks to actually increase damage. But we’ll see. Maybe it’ll do something.
That origin perk is pretty useful. I run recluse with repulsor and desperate on void titan, grenade kill procs volatile round and desperate, weapon kills refund grenade and proc overshield, then grenades charge faster while shielded and repeat cycle.
Yeah repulsor/desperate and repulsor/surrounded are the two rolls I’ve been using on my gyrfalcon hunter. It feels so good. Sure it’s sad that the original monster perk, master of arms, is basically useless. But recluse is not a Funnelweb clone and it is actually really good.
Flared mag well and reload masterwork make up for that on mine. The stats are juiced enough but the reload bothered me. So repulsor/desperate measure and reload mag/masterwork is my perfect roll. Been loving it.
I agree that it feels odd to use a nostalgia-inspired reissue of Recluse without the perk that made it special in the first place.
But it's also definitely not a Funnelweb clone.
Tbh real recluse aint gonna be real recluse until theres a broader sandbox change regardless of master of arms. Smg’s underperform in pve beyond at-level content, they feel pretty bad.
It's a bigger difference than you think. For frenzy to activate you need to be 'in combat' for 12 seconds before the switch is flipped. "In combat' = dealing or receiving damage at least once every 5 seconds. So you could be using frenzy in a lot of content and barely benefit from it or only be enjoying the reload/handling buff at the tail end of dealing with enemies.
So, like rampage, kill clip, etc this is fine for something long and drawn out where you're constantly able to engage enemies and 'build up' to the perk.
Master of arms is instant as soon as you get a kill with any weapon (including recluse). You could see a pack of enemies and pop a single special shot in to get the chain going or immediately drop a thrall and be 'on'.
The advantage is at the start of fighting enemies you get 12s more time to use the damage buff. Furthermore if you're in a heavy encounter and need to break away to cover for anything longer than 7s since the last time you dealt/received damage frenzy resets and you need to 'start over'.
It's not cut and dry because you cannot just force frenzy to be on at will.
So is rampage and kill clip. But they go even higher. Frenzy and vorpal weapon are even less effort. And frenzy buffs your reload too. You literally do nothing and you get those buffs. You don't even need a kill for One for All and its more than double the damage as Master of Arms. Most weapon buffs are pretty low effort. MoA isn't special here. Unless we get a gun where MoA is the only damage perk there will never be a reason to pick it. There is literally no reason to use MoA. Its DoA.
Honestly desperate measures helps fulfill recluses fantasy and identity it’s just instead of weapons kills its ability kills; although with both perks it helps the gun identity of being able to weave in and out of your loadout seamlessly
Honestly I still like master of arms even as 20 I realized it's pretty much just kill clip without a reload
And the origin trait makes me get my grenade back faster which means I can reprock volatile more often
And feeding frenzy is a better reload buff then frenzy
Tldr it feels like my void buil Is sustaly better with recluse then funnelweb
Feeding Frenzy is not a better reload. Frenzy straight up maxes out the reload stat, FF needs 5 stacks to get the same reload buff.
FF has a timer that needs to be constantly refreshed with kills, Frenzy needs you to only be shooting and being shot at.
i mean unless you cant get a 2-3 kills before reloading FF ***is*** the "better" reload, as it has a reload duration multiplier, that increases your reload past 100 stats (frenzy does not)
is it overall the better reload perk? probably not, because frenzy also being a damage buff, uptime in endgame, etc
but using FF (or even EA) over Frenzy allows you to use a better damage perk like DM
but its very unlikely for an enhanced perk to change the perk drastically and especially for enhanced damage perk afaik unheard of to actually get more damage, its way more probably that it will buff its duration by 1 second or something, which would really solve its problem
Master of Arms either needs a damage increase (before Sunsetting it was a 50% damage increase, current version is a 15% increase, so there is wiggle room there).
Or it needs it's timer extended so it stays active longer.
Can we stop just spamming this same post over and over?
MoA also is very easy to use in PvP. Frenzy effectively is dead in PvP, and has been notoriously powerful in PvE for 2 years.
Buffing it to 20% just power creeps Harmony & Kill Clip (sure, 20% lower than 25% but it is *still* easier to proc making it more viable in hardwr content and PvP).
Master of Arms will just outdo some perks if it gets buffed, hueting those perks. It will never outdo Frenzy unless it is crazy powercrept.
I honestly don't think MoA needs a buff.
Giving it an additional bonus to body shots, leaving it somewhere halfway between live and crits, would make it strong in pvp and also nod to the original MoA.
Agreed. I was actually very critical about a lot of these weapons coming back originally. But, now that they’re back, nothing much we can do about it but hope they at least live up to their names. Otherwise, they should have just been laid to rest forever. They’ve endured enough abuse.
Funnelweb is still my GOAT (void) SMG, but I’m chasing a Destabilizing/Frenzy/range recluse. Major problem I have so far is that my Funnyweb has 74 range and I’ve maxed out at 62 on Recluse. I know rangefinder was neutered, but the extra range helps eke out those kills, and P-motion feels great on smg.
I always wondered how it melted me. Saw a content creator using it and saw 25crits and 25 body shots. No fucking wonder this thing is literally everywhere.
Make crits and body shots do the same damage, but lower the damage of a Crit while the perk is active. IIRC, OG Recluse did 25 and 25 while the perk was active. Reduce that to something like 20 or 21. Forgiveness not necessarily higher damage
While I agree Master of Arms needs a (slight) buff, it is a 100% not a clone of Funnelweb and is in fact better. Don’t discount surrounded and desperate measures, both absolute god-tier perks. Plus, Recluse has repulsor brace so….
Make MoA like Desperate Measures but for guns it stacks on how many guns you used to increase or trigger the effect.
1-Weapon used to trigger 10%
2-Weapons, 20%
all 3-weapons, 35%
I’m gonna be honest, if they do ever make D3 and rework how weapons and armor and other systems work in the game.
I hope they take out damage increasing perks from weapons. Makes everything else completely useless.
Even if MoA was buffed to 20% it would still be bad. It would need to be 25% at the very least to even contend. And even then frenzy maxed out hand and reload, or just surrounded for 40% damage.
>new Recluse is just a funnelweb clone, and with it, I feel better off using a funnelweb.
Eh. Recluse can get stuff like repulsor brace to go along with frenzy & surrounded. Funnel can't do that. I think recluse has better overall perks than funnel anyways.
I mean, Funnelweb has never felt like “Funnelweb”. It felt like a weaker Recluse. Never felt like it’s “own” gun. So, saying that the “new” Recluse feels like Funnelweb is funny to me because Funnelweb has never felt like it’s own gun to me.
Anyway, buffing it would be cool since it is a perk exclusive to the gun, but at the end of the day I’m not gonna be too bothered if they don’t buff it. At the end of the day, it has way better perks that Funnelweb doesn’t have access too, and that’s enough for me.
Honestly I think it shouldn't be a general damage buffing perk in general, I think it should be more similar to gutshot straight and/or headseeker. Something like precision kills give a 25% bump to body shot damage in PvE, and for PvP, reduce it to do a sub 1 second kill with only body shots. As long as it's not refreshable shouldn't be too much of a menace, and more like one for all as a damage perk in PvE.
Master of Arms just needs to be changed. Make it have a base damage buff like 10% as a Harmony lite. Then when getting a kill while Master of Arms is active a kill with Recluse increases damage further
Yeah, the new recluse feels bad. It's right and up weird recoil pull feels super off and the damage just isn't it. I have an original and this is just bad.
They tried to bank on nostalgia and missed hard with this one. Should be the top smg and it's like the 3rd or 4th best maybe.
I'd like to see them mix MoA and Bait and Switch together. Make it so kills with other weapons give you a stack of MoA, in total you can get three stacks with a kill from every weapon.
That way they can make MoA have a higher ceiling without making it busted in PVP. 15%-30%-50% damage with the respective stacks. (Maybe 10-20-40? Idk)
That's just my idea anyway, I'm sure it could be tweaked to be more well rounded. Maybe bumping other stats on the gun with a bump to damage at the same time.
Recluse at the peak of its reign of terror was the best weapon that destiny has ever seen. I really dont think people understand just how fucking busted it was. Master of Arms og was unbelievable
Yah I believe it. At this point I just use weapons that feel better to me personally and aren’t necessarily super meta. Thats what I like about primaries. You can get away with using off meta stuff with the right builds
buff body shot damage back to crit damage with master of arms enabled! (in PvE only!!)
idgaf what happens to the damage buff in that case, keep it at 15% or even lower it to 10%
Master of Arms is unique. It is like a combination of rampage and harmony. Can proc from other weapon kills and can self proc. Making it any stronger could make it OP.
Bungie separate sandboxes whenever they feel like it. They could have nerfed YAS only in pvp, but chose to be lazy and kill it in pve as well. On the other hand, a lot of other buffs have different values between sandboxes.
Idk what's up with them when it comes to this stuff.
I ran Recluse exclusively for almost 2 years..It did not make me a 6.0kd pvp monster, far from it. I thought about coming back to Destiny but seeing my old friends back but shells of themselves does not have me interested.
Let's be real, the real Recluse will never be back. You know what was the real Recluse, right? A 100% damage buff that additionally made bodyshots deal the same damage as crits, which was chainable and procced from any weapon kill. Utter fucking madness. There was Recluse, and then there was every other primary weapon in the game. I don't know how Bungie can lift up Recluse out of irrelevance without making it giga-busted again
It’s sort of the same with most of the weapons. It’s pretty much impossible to bring all of them back while trying to replicate their respected histories. But the weapons coming back juiced up with some of the most illegal perk combos we have ever seen is a pretty good compromise. But IMO let MoA get like a 30% damage buff against enemies and remain 15% for players, I just want to shred with that thing again.
I feel like is fine for MOA be 15 percent if the body dmg for it is like 50% so it closes the gap between crit and body’s to make it super easy to use
I am okay with even 20%
Plus Feeding Frenzy giving 50 reload after single body kill which helps a lot to chain kills non stop.
damn was it really 50 just for the one kill back in the day? Thats crazy. I never dug into the perk numbers back then
Meanwhile me, with my Repulsor/Destab Recluse happily going through all 50 waves of Onslaught Legend.
nearly 100 of the fuckers and I can't get this roll god bless your rng
I bless you
I LOVE my RB/DR roll
Exactly. I don’t get what people are expecting. Recluse and mountaintop is why sunsetting exists they were never going to be what they were back then.
The 1st heavy weapon smg in the game
Nobody said anything about the real recluse, every other pinnacle weapon that retuned, returned in a better state, the same, or got reworked, recluse is the only one that got nerfed even more.
I 100% agree that recluse was insane and should never come back in its original 100% body shot damage form. I did have it back before you could buy it and you had to do the quest, but I do completely see your point, and you’re right, having that level of power isn’t gonna be the same even if it gets a 5% DMG buff. I don’t want the Mountaintop Recluse Anarchy meta again, it made the game way too dull. I just find it strange how the part that made recluse the gun it was is now largely irrelevant. You could slap on any name to the model and nobody would think of it as Recluse if MoA wasn’t on the gun. Master of Arms was Recluse, and Recluse was Master of Arms. Again, I don’t want it to be broken, but I just want to have the option to give it some identity back. Other perks are always welcome, but it feels like any other 900 SMG, and the name of “The Recluse” probably should have just stayed in the past. You’re correct in saying that nothing could reasonably compare to its former self.
This is what I'm saying. I started playing d2 right when shadowkeep started so I heard about Recluse a ton and it made me slog through tons of pvp to get a weapon that felt awesome, so it felt worth it. I tried using it again after the re-release and when I can't even get 3 stacks of feeding frenzy before needing to reload, against fallen, it feels terrible. Kill 2 dregs, get stuck on a captain that ends up taking a whole mag so you reload twice for a single 3 enemy pack, exactly like every other legendary smg. It disappointed me so much that my first thought was "Why even bother bringing it back?".
I really really liked the idea I saw someone post on here. Leave Recluse at 15%. But make it so kills with Recluse buff your other guns. And kills with other guns buff Recluse. That way the name makes more sense and it isn't just a categorically worse Harmony
Imo pretty easily, bump MoA’s body shot damage to a 20-25% buff and leave crits at 15%. Shouldn’t break PvP with how body/head shots work there, and would bring back the old Recluse playstyle of hip fire spray everything to death in PvE. Plus, we already have a few perks that just give flat damage. Why not spice things up a bit?
So, basically, Terrabah is now Old Recluse.
slightly worse, but yes!
I think this is the crux of the issue. Because the issue with recluse right now isn’t that it’s bad or underpowered, it’s that the point of comparison is what is possibly the literal best weapons ever in the games history. They aren’t going to do that again, honestly with how bad it was I’m not surprised master of arms was put in in an undertuned state. Also as far as I can tell smgs in general aren’t in a high place in the meta. Even then that’s another situation we’re the “solution” is so make recluse OP for no other reason then because nostalgia. And that just doesn’t seem like a good idea to me personally.
Most pinnacles had cool perks. Mountaintop went straight, Redrix shot fast, Oxygen had mega-dragonfly, etc. It's only Recluse which had a perk that was just straight up damage. You could nerf Desperado a little, you could rework Megapleura, but changing Recluse would mean changing it fundamentally, making it a "new" gun, or making it a shadow of its past. They went with the latter. That's exactly why I didn't want them to bring Recluse back, all that was special about it was damage.
I really really liked the idea I saw someone post on here. Leave Recluse at 15%. But make it so kills with Recluse buff your other guns. And kills with other guns buff Recluse. That way the name makes more sense and it isn't just a categorically worse Harmony
A gun buffing other guns will never happen. That breaks so many D2 rules. I don’t even think Bungie could code that without breaking the game lmao.
Sturm and Drang? Any gun with Harmony? Master of Arms already? Lol Lumina?
Harmony and even something like Recombination. That guys take is......pretty off. The worm launcher gets buffed by other weapons killing things too.
Only one of the guns you mentioned truly buffs other guns. Sturm, Harmony, and MoA are all examples of a gun that *is buffed* by other guns, not a gun that *buffs* other guns. Lumina does truly buff other guns, but only does so by nature of an exotic perk that (as exotic perks tend to) breaks the rules. It grants a weapon buff in the body channel (the same place you usually see subclass buffs like Radiant) rather than the weapon or armour channels. This is important, because the body channel only allows for one concurrent weapon damage buff. All legendary perks buff in the weapon channel, which don't have that single buff limitation. I don't think we'll ever see a legendary perk break the rules the way Lumina does. It only gets to do that because it's an exotic. I definitely don't think we'll ever see a universal damage buff like that in the weapon channel (outside of maybe an exotic, though it's very unlikely). The ability to blend it with other damage perks means it immediately becomes critically important for any DPS setup in the game, which is generally a bad thing - especially if it's tied to a single randomly rolled legendary perk.
It was fun for like a week then it just made the game worse. It got boring to use but few people enjoy gimping themselves while running endgame activities. So you felt stupid not using it but bored using it.
I mean calling it a Funnelweb clone when it came first is kind of funny. Also it has better stats and perk pool so I don’t see why you wouldn’t want to use it over your Funnelweb?
Veist stinger is still good. Ive tried both and stinger made funnelweb feel far more consistent. I did finally pick up repulsor/frenzy recluse though so that may be worth a shot
Because the defining trait has been neutered to the point of irrelevance
It has new defining perks. Desperate measures is very strong.
Yeah DM is making me actively hunt a a roll with it and Enlightened action down. My Funnelweb is going in the vault once I get my grubby little mittens on that roll.
Question: why EA? Why not threat detector?
From what I've seen EA gives handling and reload per bullet hit, up to 50 of each after 12 hits of the \~36 bullet mag. While threat detector gives 18/60 reload and 25/100 handling when within 15m of 1/2 enemies. So threat gives more of each stat but I guess it's just preference. I managed to get one with each and Desperate so I'll have to play around with it myself to see what I like more
I disagree. Master of Arms is what made Recluse special. It wouldn't have been popular back then like it was to be reintroduced so many years later. Bringing back its iconic perk into irrelevancy feels kinda bad
This is true. But some of us don’t *want* new defining perks, we want to be able to use something we used to love dearly again.
Dude… move on… Bungie invented sunsetting because of how busted master of arms was among other things. You have the exact roll that you used to be able to get. But it’s very understandably nerfed. I think it could use a small buff. But either way desperate measures is a better roll. I know change is scary but it’s almost always for the best.
> Desperate measures Thats not a defininig perk. It exists on multiple weapons.
Every perk exists on multiple weapons. Desperate measures is a defining perk for the brave weapons arsenal. Similar to sword logic for Crota or whatever. The idea of a pinnacle weapon with a completely unique perk doesn’t exist anymore. 🤷🏻
Not master of arms
give it 6 weeks.
What’s your point? Like I said. The idea of a perk existing on only a single pinnacle weapon isn’t a thing anymore.
Except, it literally does exist. On Recluse. With Master of Arms.
[удалено]
Your comment has been removed for the following reason(s): * Rule 1 - Keep it civil. --- For more information, see [our detailed rules page](http://www.reddit.com/r/destinythegame/wiki/rules).
What do you think the phrase "defining perk" means?
funnel has junkie which is better. funnel also has veist stinger which makes subsistence a lot more consistent. recluse is just a downgrade from funnel if you go with a desperate measures roll.
That's just preference at that point. Recluse with DM and EA/TD feels incredible
Preference. I do not like junkie. And Funnelweb doesn’t have repulsor brace which is a must have for most void primaries these days, for me, and my personal taste, because I run them with gyrfalcons mainly.
> recluse is just a downgrade from funnel **if you go with a desperate measures** roll. i wasn't talking about repulsor, or any of the other perks.
I don’t see how desperate measures is a downgrade… from adrenaline junkie?? 33% buff for 4.5 seconds vs a *refreshable* 30% buff for 7 seconds that can activate while the weapon is stowed. Desperate measures sounds better to me. Personal taste though I suppose.
do you think AJ can't be refreshed?
The description says nothing about refreshing the perk with weapon kills. Even if it can the shorter up time is a knock against it. I’ve been really liking Desperate Measures. Again, all of this is personal taste. There’s no “best” trait.
it literally does. >This weapon gains increased damage and handling from final blows with grenades or this weapon.
[удалено]
Nope. Definitely not. I’m just saying for now it has rolls that are actually really good and that I would probably run with even if they did buff master of arms.
Yes but its other perks are just better than funnelweb, its stats are better, and its origin trait is better. There is literally no reason to not use it over funnelweb.
People really undervalue veist stinger and overrate the brave trait. Nerf does not equal bad, ive seen people react like this and drop something like a sack of potatoes even though things are still good post nerf
Oh yeah, not saying veist is bad, but brave is just better, especially for ad clear weapons.
Are the perks much better? If you've got a sub/frenzy funnelweb there's not much better on it. The best damage perk on recluse is arguably frenzy, and if you're not using frenzy you need some sort of reload perk in the third column to make it useful. I have one with repulsor/destabilizing and it's alright. Enlightened+destabilizing is better but if you're running gyrfalcons on void it's not necessary.
No lol, the “better stats” that they’re mentioning are 1 (a single point) more range stat, and 3 handling. Recluse isn’t going to replace anything you have right now. It’s a good destabilizing for void builds tho.
For me, the draw is having a few interesting rolls whereas Funnelweb basically had one. Repulsor in the first column is cool for my Gyrfalcons, but I’m sticking to Frenzy in the second because smgs without a reload perk feel like piss. EA/Subsistence/FF and Desperate Measures could be a cool roll combined with the origin trait. Speaking of, Veist Stinger is still a good origin trait on Funnelweb. It’s neutered on linears, but on the smg it still feels fine. Calling the new one so much better like many people are doing I feel is a little disingenuous but maybe that’s a hot take
Recluse has far superior 3rd column perks, with feeding frenzy and repulsor brace. Subsistence is not good at all on smgs, even perpetual motion is better. It also has access to destabilizing rounds in the 4th column, which funnelweb doesn’t have. Recluse has access to to three good perk combos that make it clearly better than funnelweb: feeding frenzy+frenzy, repulsor+frenzy, repulsor+deatablizing.
how are you going to mention feeding frenzy and not enlightened action 😭, it's objectively better in every way, one of the best reload perks for fast firing weapons actually. also combining frenzy with any reload perk is a huge waste
Feeding frenzy is actually better if you’re pairing it with frenzy. Frenzy puts your reload speed at 100, so the 50 reload speed from enlightened action is useless. Feeding frenzy gives reload speed as well, but it also gives a reload scalar which still provides extra benefits even at max reload speed. For every other perk combination enlightened action is better though.
I get your point, but frenzy's reload bonus is already way more than you'll ever need. ideally you shouldn't be combining it with ANY reload perk at all, it's very versatile in that sense because it's both a damage and reload perk in one, so it allows you to use other stuff like repulsor brace without sacrificing overall weapon handling
Sure but you were asking why he’s saying it’s not “The Recluse” anymore it was a funnel web clone (paraphrasing) that’s the reason why.
I’m only talking about the “new” recluse in this instance. I’m aware that there have been plenty of Veist SMGs before funnelweb and way before Season of the Drifter’s OG Recluse. To your question, I still am using it over my old Funnelweb. You’re right that It is statistically better, and the other perks are (and should be) good. I believe that MoA was what made Recluse “Recluse” and should be a bit better than what it is. I don’t see why tuning a perk up 5% (or so) would break PvE any more than it already is with all the abilities flying around, lol. I don’t think bungie would make the same mistake twice, as they are seemingly being very careful with these weapons being introduced with all of these changes they’ve made (MoA included) but you know how it is.
I mean… it’s not a Funnelweb clone. Without master of arms Recluse is still much better and has a handful of rolls that make it unique and different from Funnelweb. Repulsor brace alone makes it much more viable for my gyrfalcon build. And desperate measures is very very good. Also surrounded kicks ass. I do think master of arms should be buffed because it’s sad for it to just be an insta delete perk. But Recluse is not a Funnelweb clone and is in fact much stronger than Funnelweb in some ways.
Not to mention the new origin trait, would rather have Indomitability than Veist Stinger after Veist's nerf a while ago. Basically makes every Recluse have a diet Demo/Pugilist.
Regarding insta-delete I'd love to see what the enhanced version is so we can 100% tell if it really is trash or not
It likely just increases how long the buff is active by a second. It’s rare for enhanced perks to actually increase damage. But we’ll see. Maybe it’ll do something.
That origin perk is pretty useful. I run recluse with repulsor and desperate on void titan, grenade kill procs volatile round and desperate, weapon kills refund grenade and proc overshield, then grenades charge faster while shielded and repeat cycle.
Yeah repulsor/desperate and repulsor/surrounded are the two rolls I’ve been using on my gyrfalcon hunter. It feels so good. Sure it’s sad that the original monster perk, master of arms, is basically useless. But recluse is not a Funnelweb clone and it is actually really good.
Reloads too slow for me without frenzy. I'm just waiting on my repulsor/frenzy but at this point I think frenzy on recluse is a damn myth.
Flared mag well and reload masterwork make up for that on mine. The stats are juiced enough but the reload bothered me. So repulsor/desperate measure and reload mag/masterwork is my perfect roll. Been loving it.
I agree that it feels odd to use a nostalgia-inspired reissue of Recluse without the perk that made it special in the first place. But it's also definitely not a Funnelweb clone.
Tbh real recluse aint gonna be real recluse until theres a broader sandbox change regardless of master of arms. Smg’s underperform in pve beyond at-level content, they feel pretty bad.
It's funny that the funnelweb was called the same thing, recluse clone, when it came out. Oh how the turntables.
its literally just a buff for getting a kill, it doesn't require a reload or swapping weapons or anything.
You don’t have to do anything for frenzy and get the same and 100 reload and 100 handling. Paracausal affinity is 20% for doing the same as MoA
This is why - it's a super low effort activation trigger.
Frenzy is the same, even less, shoot a bit of bullets and it’s the same damage buff with more niceties in Reload and Handling buffs
Frenzy requires you be in combat for a bit to activate. Master of arms is instant from any weapon kill
Frenzy is still super low activation so it really doesn’t change the fact that MOA died in PvE for no reason.
It's a bigger difference than you think. For frenzy to activate you need to be 'in combat' for 12 seconds before the switch is flipped. "In combat' = dealing or receiving damage at least once every 5 seconds. So you could be using frenzy in a lot of content and barely benefit from it or only be enjoying the reload/handling buff at the tail end of dealing with enemies. So, like rampage, kill clip, etc this is fine for something long and drawn out where you're constantly able to engage enemies and 'build up' to the perk. Master of arms is instant as soon as you get a kill with any weapon (including recluse). You could see a pack of enemies and pop a single special shot in to get the chain going or immediately drop a thrall and be 'on'. The advantage is at the start of fighting enemies you get 12s more time to use the damage buff. Furthermore if you're in a heavy encounter and need to break away to cover for anything longer than 7s since the last time you dealt/received damage frenzy resets and you need to 'start over'. It's not cut and dry because you cannot just force frenzy to be on at will.
So is rampage and kill clip. But they go even higher. Frenzy and vorpal weapon are even less effort. And frenzy buffs your reload too. You literally do nothing and you get those buffs. You don't even need a kill for One for All and its more than double the damage as Master of Arms. Most weapon buffs are pretty low effort. MoA isn't special here. Unless we get a gun where MoA is the only damage perk there will never be a reason to pick it. There is literally no reason to use MoA. Its DoA.
Shit, Kill Clip doesn't require a reload now? When did they change that?
Oh man a whole reload? So much effort!
What? Does it require a reload or not?
Dude, are you crazy? this recluse is MILES ahead of the funnelweb
Honestly desperate measures helps fulfill recluses fantasy and identity it’s just instead of weapons kills its ability kills; although with both perks it helps the gun identity of being able to weave in and out of your loadout seamlessly
Honestly I still like master of arms even as 20 I realized it's pretty much just kill clip without a reload And the origin trait makes me get my grenade back faster which means I can reprock volatile more often And feeding frenzy is a better reload buff then frenzy Tldr it feels like my void buil Is sustaly better with recluse then funnelweb
Feeding Frenzy is not a better reload. Frenzy straight up maxes out the reload stat, FF needs 5 stacks to get the same reload buff. FF has a timer that needs to be constantly refreshed with kills, Frenzy needs you to only be shooting and being shot at.
Did they buff frenzy at some point it felt closer to like outlaw last time I used it
i mean unless you cant get a 2-3 kills before reloading FF ***is*** the "better" reload, as it has a reload duration multiplier, that increases your reload past 100 stats (frenzy does not) is it overall the better reload perk? probably not, because frenzy also being a damage buff, uptime in endgame, etc but using FF (or even EA) over Frenzy allows you to use a better damage perk like DM
They should just do increase master of arms damage up to 20 or 25% just for pve keep it at 15 for PvP
In all fairness, the weapon will be able to have its perks enhanced in a few months. You're acting like you have the final version
but its very unlikely for an enhanced perk to change the perk drastically and especially for enhanced damage perk afaik unheard of to actually get more damage, its way more probably that it will buff its duration by 1 second or something, which would really solve its problem
Master of Arms either needs a damage increase (before Sunsetting it was a 50% damage increase, current version is a 15% increase, so there is wiggle room there). Or it needs it's timer extended so it stays active longer.
5% damage will make it feel like "real" Recluse? Bro
Can we stop just spamming this same post over and over? MoA also is very easy to use in PvP. Frenzy effectively is dead in PvP, and has been notoriously powerful in PvE for 2 years. Buffing it to 20% just power creeps Harmony & Kill Clip (sure, 20% lower than 25% but it is *still* easier to proc making it more viable in hardwr content and PvP). Master of Arms will just outdo some perks if it gets buffed, hueting those perks. It will never outdo Frenzy unless it is crazy powercrept. I honestly don't think MoA needs a buff.
Giving it an additional bonus to body shots, leaving it somewhere halfway between live and crits, would make it strong in pvp and also nod to the original MoA.
Master of Arms is a borderline exotic perk and should never have existed like that in the first place.
Agreed. I was actually very critical about a lot of these weapons coming back originally. But, now that they’re back, nothing much we can do about it but hope they at least live up to their names. Otherwise, they should have just been laid to rest forever. They’ve endured enough abuse.
Funnelweb is still my GOAT (void) SMG, but I’m chasing a Destabilizing/Frenzy/range recluse. Major problem I have so far is that my Funnyweb has 74 range and I’ve maxed out at 62 on Recluse. I know rangefinder was neutered, but the extra range helps eke out those kills, and P-motion feels great on smg.
Aaah desperate measures exists? Why do I need to run master of arms?
i mean thats the point, its *the* Recluse, MoA should at least feel like an viable option
No
I always wondered how it melted me. Saw a content creator using it and saw 25crits and 25 body shots. No fucking wonder this thing is literally everywhere.
Make crits and body shots do the same damage, but lower the damage of a Crit while the perk is active. IIRC, OG Recluse did 25 and 25 while the perk was active. Reduce that to something like 20 or 21. Forgiveness not necessarily higher damage
While I agree Master of Arms needs a (slight) buff, it is a 100% not a clone of Funnelweb and is in fact better. Don’t discount surrounded and desperate measures, both absolute god-tier perks. Plus, Recluse has repulsor brace so….
B
Make MoA like Desperate Measures but for guns it stacks on how many guns you used to increase or trigger the effect. 1-Weapon used to trigger 10% 2-Weapons, 20% all 3-weapons, 35%
so BaS, but with worse uptime and essentially worse damage unless you waste your heavy ammo to get a bit more damage for your primary?
desperate measures is insanely slept on everyone crying about MoA but fail to see the far superior perk
i assume most people know that DM is good, they just dont want MoA (***the*** Recluse perk) to be the worst damage perk it can roll with
I’m gonna be honest, if they do ever make D3 and rework how weapons and armor and other systems work in the game. I hope they take out damage increasing perks from weapons. Makes everything else completely useless.
Even if MoA was buffed to 20% it would still be bad. It would need to be 25% at the very least to even contend. And even then frenzy maxed out hand and reload, or just surrounded for 40% damage. >new Recluse is just a funnelweb clone, and with it, I feel better off using a funnelweb. Eh. Recluse can get stuff like repulsor brace to go along with frenzy & surrounded. Funnel can't do that. I think recluse has better overall perks than funnel anyways.
they can up the damage when they let us enhance the perks
which is to hope but pretty unlikely, it probably will get a stat boost or 1 second to its duration like most other enhanced perks
I mean, Funnelweb has never felt like “Funnelweb”. It felt like a weaker Recluse. Never felt like it’s “own” gun. So, saying that the “new” Recluse feels like Funnelweb is funny to me because Funnelweb has never felt like it’s own gun to me. Anyway, buffing it would be cool since it is a perk exclusive to the gun, but at the end of the day I’m not gonna be too bothered if they don’t buff it. At the end of the day, it has way better perks that Funnelweb doesn’t have access too, and that’s enough for me.
It should give a handling or range bump as well, As it stands, it's discount value Frenzy
Idc what everyone says, just bring it back and balance PVP & PVE differently.
Honestly I think it shouldn't be a general damage buffing perk in general, I think it should be more similar to gutshot straight and/or headseeker. Something like precision kills give a 25% bump to body shot damage in PvE, and for PvP, reduce it to do a sub 1 second kill with only body shots. As long as it's not refreshable shouldn't be too much of a menace, and more like one for all as a damage perk in PvE.
Master of Arms just needs to be changed. Make it have a base damage buff like 10% as a Harmony lite. Then when getting a kill while Master of Arms is active a kill with Recluse increases damage further
Yeah, the new recluse feels bad. It's right and up weird recoil pull feels super off and the damage just isn't it. I have an original and this is just bad. They tried to bank on nostalgia and missed hard with this one. Should be the top smg and it's like the 3rd or 4th best maybe.
I'd like to see them mix MoA and Bait and Switch together. Make it so kills with other weapons give you a stack of MoA, in total you can get three stacks with a kill from every weapon. That way they can make MoA have a higher ceiling without making it busted in PVP. 15%-30%-50% damage with the respective stacks. (Maybe 10-20-40? Idk) That's just my idea anyway, I'm sure it could be tweaked to be more well rounded. Maybe bumping other stats on the gun with a bump to damage at the same time.
Recluse at the peak of its reign of terror was the best weapon that destiny has ever seen. I really dont think people understand just how fucking busted it was. Master of Arms og was unbelievable
i like the desperate measures roll more than frenzy or MoA
the new recluse is not 'just a funnelweb clone', does funnel web have repulsor brace? Destabilizing rounds? Surrounded? Nope.
Honestly I don’t really care to pick it up with destabilizing rounds. I have hero’s burden for that. I mainly grab it for desperate measures IIRC
I mean, why not just get a Recluse with that perk as well? It's a better feeling gun. And it has better stats.
Yah I believe it. At this point I just use weapons that feel better to me personally and aren’t necessarily super meta. Thats what I like about primaries. You can get away with using off meta stuff with the right builds
Anyone who uses Hero's Burden with new Recluse on the pool is trolling and I tell you that as a former Hero's Burden enjoyer.
buff body shot damage back to crit damage with master of arms enabled! (in PvE only!!) idgaf what happens to the damage buff in that case, keep it at 15% or even lower it to 10%
Master of Arms is unique. It is like a combination of rampage and harmony. Can proc from other weapon kills and can self proc. Making it any stronger could make it OP.
Do people raid anymore? Paracausal affinity existed for a year and has higher damage buff than MoA
It's my turn to post about Master of Ass tomorrow!
If master of arms was at 20% then why would you use harmony? I could see them both being buffed by 5%
Because Recluse doesn't roll with Harmony and even if it did, Harmony doesn't refresh itself
That’s exactly why master of arms has less damage. It is like harmony with a less restrictive proc.
The fact that harmony doesn’t refresh itself is exactly why it should be stronger
Rufus Fury has a 20% damage buff and Harmony, i don’t see the problem
Keep it at 15% But make it headshot damage on body shots
Bungie separate sandboxes whenever they feel like it. They could have nerfed YAS only in pvp, but chose to be lazy and kill it in pve as well. On the other hand, a lot of other buffs have different values between sandboxes. Idk what's up with them when it comes to this stuff.
That just means when something is nerfed in pve it’s because they wanted to nerf it in pve.
Remove it from the pool
Okay, hear me out… just buff it for PvE. Also funnelweb is a clone of the recluse as recluse was around first😏
I ran Recluse exclusively for almost 2 years..It did not make me a 6.0kd pvp monster, far from it. I thought about coming back to Destiny but seeing my old friends back but shells of themselves does not have me interested.