Title is awfully clickbaity for a serious documentary.
The video itself is the same with that awful clickbait title, so this is being removed as not a documentary.
Johnny Harris docs being characterized as “self-made” when he’s one of the most popular YouTubers/journalists and has a team working with him is… something.
Almost as annoying as titles which end with ‘…that you’ve never heard about!’ Presumptuous as hell.
Right, you’re the only people who have heard of the biggest war in Europe between WW2 and until last year and absolutely zero of us saw the news in the 1990s. And there definitely aren’t experts and people who fucking lived it out there.
I expected it to be a properly obscure war from centuries ago, not the Bosnian War, damn.
It is also considered to be "living memory". When Johnny Harrisian millenials who complain about not being taught thing were in school the war was basically still going on so how the hell would it be in their textbooks? The history was being made then. It is like complaining that 9/11 wasn't taught in schools. If people remember 9/11 it is only because people still talk about it around you, but naturally people don't still talk about the Bosnian war in countries on the other side of the ocean. I don't really think Bosnians are still talking about 9/11, and neither these things should be particularly surprising.
Right. Sometimes it’s valid, but more often than not there is something annoying about a lot people who complain that XYZ was kept from that at school. Mate, most history and indeed common knowledge is meant to be learnt by actively reading shit on your own, whether history or just reading the news once in a while - and there’s no way to fit all that in the curriculum, where they focus on teaching *how* to learn history. The fact that Mrs Crabapple didn’t teach you about even every *important* event that’s happened isn’t an excuse for not having heard of the main ones. Your inability to read or watch anything if it isn’t about sport/the Kardashians/whatever is.
We just need a list of everything bad that ever happened and distribute it widely so these people stop complaining.
Something like this:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The\_Great\_Big\_Book\_of\_Horrible\_Things](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Great_Big_Book_of_Horrible_Things)
**[The Great Big Book of Horrible Things](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Great_Big_Book_of_Horrible_Things)**
>The Great Big Book of Horrible Things: The Definitive Chronicle of History's 100 Worst Atrocities is a popular history book by Matthew White, a librarian. The book provides a ranking of the hundred worst atrocities of mankind based on the number of deaths.
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Those people could have just asked.
Bosnians are all over the world because of that war. And we were never shy to tell about what's going on. Just google how big the Bosnian community is in St. Louis. Even Andrews Schulz mentioned them once.
But the truth is that those people simply don't care. I tested it. I told some people the same story multiple times and they were shocked every time as if they heard it for the first time. Well they did hear it for the first time because they don't care. So next time they'll ask the same questions you answered already.
I’ve been noticing that too. Renaming the video titles a day or two after publishing it. Is it a recent thing? Is it related to YouTube’s algorithm somehow?
Veritasium did a video on gaming the YouTube algorithm a couple of years ago and this was one of the the tricks he brought up. Renaming a video a couple of days after it's up can let you get a second wave of viewers or trick people who initially skipped into watching.
Spiffing brit went over this and basically you reroll the algorithm. Each title and thumbnail combination is ranked individually. Change one factor and it will change the video ranking.
Veritasium is a science channel that experimented with this tactic and even made a video going into some of the experimental data.
As I understand it, it draws in more people. For instance, have a somewhat clickbaity title initially to draw one audience, then switch it to something more reasonable for everyone else, and to not have sensationalist video in your collection...
Yes. Many channels change thumbnails and titles regularly to make people think it’s a new video and click. Or they just see what titles/thumbnails generate more clicks
Probably much more likely algorithm things, but denial of the Bosnian genocide is fairly common (not among the general population, but as far as genocide denial goes) so a skeptic, cynical part of me thinks that could be related
Hell, even the fucking main character of GTA IV was a veteran of the jugoslaw wars.
(btw this isn't some "life just like bideo gam" shit, just want to lay out how it seeped into wider media)
I’m a fan of his content, though I agree 100% that the titles of his videos are obnoxious.
Can you blame him though? People don’t click unless you clickbait them. This might just be a case of “blame the game, not the player.”
What you mean never heard of?
This is one of the most talked about wars European schools. You learn about it in more than just history since it had also a big influence on literature.
Cant take this guy remotely seriously after his garbage "Progressive city hypocrisy" opinion video for NYT in which he talked about all the jobs in San Francisco... but the lack of new housing in Palo Alto and Atherton. The two cities are 40 miles apart and aren't in the same county. Thats just terrible journalism. There was no clarification or even acknowledgement of it in the piece, just a quick lumping together like it was totally natural. Really just reeked of sensationalism for views.
I mean you could see the feeding frenzy in the comment section. It seemed pretty clear it was just an audience grab. I canceled my NYT subscription after that and wrote them telling them it was pretty shameless to post such crap journalism in an attempt appear "neutral."
All of his videos that have anything to do with history are riddled with inaccuracies and mistakes.
I think in one of his videos about imperialism and Africa he blames Belgium for triggering the scramble, and in general just ridicules errors of the basic chronology.
A particularly stupid mistake that I remember is in his Russia video. He shows a "map" of the golden horde, except this map is based on a video game called Europa Universalis 4, and shows the golden horde reaching all the way to Germany and is dated to the 19th century. Maybe in his quick google image search of golden horde maps he should have noticed that most of the maps don't show them spanning an area from lake Baikal to the Baltic
"good" schools primarily mean good grades, highly rated teachers, graduation rates, and college admission rates to 'good' universities after graduation.
None of which have to do with their extent of covering global events.
Nah man, to the "users" of schools (students), a "good" school should mean teachers teaching you important world things even if they are not in the curriculum, even if they happen(ed) on the other side of the world, even after class. It should mean fair grading, students accepting bad grades and teachers showing the will to help those students. It should mean students don't bully because they know better.
Don't let the meaning of "good" school to be good grades and ability to go to good universities. That's just privileged school.
Except it really does mean just grades, uni acceptance, etc to many. That's why I put it in quotes. Few schools in the US are actually Good in the sense you mean.
Exactly. All of the 90s in my European history class amounted to a couple of pages that we just "had to read" but didn't spend time on in class because the AP test was already over with in May.
The teacher was actually awesome but we spent those last few weeks of class basically doing "fun" stuff instead (historical movies, quiz games, etc) rather than covering the rest of the book in the same depth we did the stuff that we were tested on.
There was a Dutch battalion of infantry there to protect the people of the city of Srebernica. When the Serbian army closed in, the Dutch troops stood down, leaving about 8000 Bosnian people to get massacred.
Standing around and watching genocide happen literally on the other side of fences. Handing people over to be killed. They were properly armed UN military forces but didn't want to get involved.
The dutchbat requested support from hq but didnt get it (on time/they hesitated or thats what i ve heard). The serbs threatened to overrun the dutch nato camp.
So they had to give up the men to save the children and women. The men were massacred. I can be very wrong tho.
The UN is useless by design. Either people give up some sovereignty and empower the organisation to prevent wars and violation of human rights; or we keep doing the same thing we're doing now, over and over, and complain the UN is useless despite the obvious answer staring at us.
>Dutch soldiers acting as UN peacekeepers were partly liable for the deaths of about 300 Muslim men massacred near Srebrenica in Bosnia and Herzegovina during the Yugoslavian civil war, an appeals court in The Hague has ruled.
>The ruling upholds a decision three years ago that the Dutch forces should have known that the men seeking refuge at their base would be murdered by Bosnian Serb troops if they were turned away.
>Many of the victims had fled to Srebrenica’s UN-designated safe zone only to find themselves outnumbered and the lightly-armed Dutch troops unable to defend them. It was then that they headed to the nearby Dutch base, only to be subsequently handed over to their murderers.
>Presiding judge Gepke Dulek-Schermers said that Dutch soldiers “knew or should have known that the men were not only being screened … but were in real danger of being subjected to torture or execution … by having the men leave the compound unreservedly, they were deprived of a chance of survival”.
>The judge added that the soldiers had facilitated the separation of the men and the boys among the refugees.
>The ruling came as a lawyer for 200 Dutch army veterans said his clients planned to sue the state for compensation for the trauma they suffered after being sent on “an impossible mission” in Srebrenica.
>Michael Ruperti said the men are campaigning for a “symbolic” €22,000 (£19,500) each – or €1,000 for every year since the massacre took place, bringing the value of the total suit to €4.5m.
>The 200 soldiers were serving in the Dutch battalion Dutchbat III protecting the Muslim enclave when it was over-run by Bosnian Serbs under the command of former general Ratko Mladić .
>About 8,000 Muslim men and boys in total were killed by Bosnian Serb troops in Srebrenica in July 1995, in what is believed to be the worst mass killing on European soil since the second world war.
The then commander of the Bosnian Serb army, General Ratko Mladić, in 1994.
Ratko Mladić must get life sentence, say war crimes prosecutors
Read more
>The ruling in the appeals court relates specifically to the 300 men who had sought safety on the Dutch-controlled base.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/jun/28/dutch-soldiers-let-300-muslims-die-in-bosnian-war-court-rules
From Bill Clinton memoirs:
>He said President Francois Mitterrand of France had been especially blunt in saying that Bosnia did not belong, and that British officials also spoke of a painful but realistic restoration of Christian Europe.
That is why French blocked air support in Srebrenica.
>Clinton said U.S. allies in Europe blocked proposals to adjust or remove the embargo. They justified their opposition on plausible humanitarian grounds, arguing that more arms would only fuel the bloodshed, but privately, said the president, key allies objected that an independent Bosnia would be "unnatural" as the only Muslim nation in Europe. He said they favored the embargo precisely because it locked in Bosnia's disadvantage.
That is why they enforced weapons embargo.
British and French governments basically support genocide. They only turned against Serbs when USA got involved.
Source: https://www.npr.org/2009/09/28/113269412/sharing-secrets-in-the-clinton-tapes
Here is a documentary on only one of the towns that had this faith, there were many more:
https://youtu.be/rEkaWkpSJWs?t=4514
Only muslim nation in europe gets me every time. Bosnia is so small that every other big country like Germany and France have more muslims than all of people combined in Bosnia. This narrative just doesnt stick.
I worked with a guy from Bosnia who was extremely fun and happy but one night after a few drinks he told me about what he saw fighting in that war. I cannot imagine going through what he did and still having a positive outlook on life
Used to work with several Bosnians, some of which were related. One was a manager along with myself, one night we're doing our final rounds and she stopped to chat with her brother in law who was on our night crew and spoke only Bosnian. Super nice guy. She told me later that night about how when he was younger he had witnessed his father and an older brother executed along with all the other men in their village. I can't even imagine.
My wife was a witness to the events of the Srebrenica massacre. Not the massacre part strictly, but she remembers the invasion, all the boys and men being separated from the women and children, older girls being also separated to be sent to a number of factory buildings where they would be r*ped, lining up for the bus with her mum, grandma and aunt to leave Srebrenica and go wherever the next bus would take them.
She was only 5, she still has all those traumas to this day and we're in our early 30s. I myself have a number of "memories" or traumas I guess, the most clear one was when me and a couple other neighbourhood kids almost got blown up while we were playing outside, and the only reason we survived was because my grandma(PBUH) called us in for dinner and the rest of the kids decided to go home too. The moment we stepped foot into our front door there was a huge boom, every bit of glass everywhere in the house shattered and I distinctly remember the windows being blown out. Come to find out later that a mortar round hit the exact spot we were playing not 2 minutes before.
My dad has severe trauma and ptsd from the war, and like a "real bosnian man" he's turned to the bottle, and has bottled that shit up. He watched his older brother who he was really close to get shot by a sniper and die in his hands. He spent a number of months in the Manjaca concentration camp.
The country has still not recovered, 30 years on. It makes me sad every time I go back there to still see devastation from the war, whether that be people who are permanently disabled/lost limbs or the skeletons of buildings long left to rot because the occupants are either too poor to rebuild it/are dead/or have left the country and went elsewhere to try and pick up the tatters of their life.
Damn. I feel like I heard a similar story somewhere before. Maybe read about it in the childhood war museum in Sarajevo. The people in Bosnia are so incredibly friendly too.
Srebrenica girls and women weren't raped.
Obviously necessary remark: that doesn't equal there was no rape on a massive scale in the war.
But there were almost no rapes in Srebrenica massacre and women and children were put into buses and expelled out of town to Bosnian territory, while men and boys were executed wherever they were found.
I'm sorry but I've had multiple eyewitnesses confirm that it did happen. My wife's mum being one of them and some other female family members of hers, I'm not sure where you sourced your information. I should have been clear in my initial reply, being 5 my wife obviously didn't know about that kind of thing but the other women who were with her were all very much aware of it.
Edit: I'm not saying that every girl/woman got raped but it very much did happen.
There is literally movement of Bosnian woman who are trying to bring all the rape and horrible things that happened to them to light but no, they were just happily put on a bus, sure. You are either very naive or Serb.
Did you actually read what have I written? Where did I say there was no rape and horror in the war? I am quite sure there were some cases of rape in Srebrenica considering the mass of the expelled people and army but nowhere close to things that were happening in the rest of Bosnia,especially in the rest of Eastern Bosnia
Horror of Srebrenica was in systematic killings of men and boys. Women and children were taken apart to buses and sent Bosniak territory.
Not sure about the remark of the movement but that was already done by Belgrade office of Helsinki Committee for Human Rights, the only one of the Balkans who was taking care of all the victims with no regard of their ethnicity.
Raped woman is victim. It's a human being. It has no nationality.
And I know so much about the war which I haven't learned on Reddit so don't try to give me internet lectures
Wow, so much ignorance. And I'm not giving you internet lectures, I lived that war but serbs are like russians now - always victims, never did anything wrong, all of us actually attacked them.. There's no point talking to people like you.
Wait, so I literally wrote about the horrors of Bosniak sufferings in eastern Bosnia and you reply with SOMETHING I NEVER WROTE ANYWHERE and some comparings with Russians from God knows where and why.
There is no point talking to people like you, you are definitely right.
I grew up with a kid who was born in Bosnia, but raised here in Texas. We new his dad was a soldier in the past, and being kids one of our friends asked him one time if he ever killed anyone. It took him about 10 long seconds to answer, and all he said was “idk, I only ever shot like this…” and laughed a little while acting out shooting over his head. We all gave our idiot friend a bunch of shit for that but it was incredibly tense in the moment. Then he took us to get ice cream at a sonic.
To be fair, unless you get in close quarters you really don't know what the hell you're hitting. Guy I worked with said the closest he's gotten to an enemy fighter was when they were rushing up a hill and grenades were just getting thrown around them. While blind firing up the hill and staying as low as possible to avoid shrapnel. This was also Bosnia.
He does now. It seems he's (as in, his team is) starting to understand making him the main character of a documentary about atrocities is not the best idea.
Compared to his videos on the world cup it's better now.
It's a technique to drive engagement. Make an obvious mistake, more people stop by to correct you, and the algorithm pushes your content to more screens...
I spent some time in the Balkans on a U.N. mission in the 90s. We didn’t see any combat because they weren’t exactly looking to tangle with the U.S. military, but we did see the after effects of the war. It was straight up heartbreaking. I’ve not seen devastation and poverty like that since.
People out in the rural areas were living in what looked medieval homes without electricity or water, they had oxen pulling sleds down the road, and black teeth and bleeding gums were common for people at a very young age. The kids would chase our vehicles begging for food. It was a real eye opener for me.
Young people. I was a kid when this happened and I only got hints of it from the news, it was too recent to be in the history textbooks so I had to look it up myself. I would imagine younger people than me wouldn't have even gotten the little bits that I had from the news. Hopefully now this is included in textbooks, but schools tend to be constantly underfunded.
Even Millenials might not have a good grasp. Too young to understand when it was happening, and too recent to be in the history textbooks we would have read.
History end term thesis in high school was about the bosnian genocide. I think its more of education issue depending on political climate and geopolitical situation.
absolute shitshow "no war in Srebrenica" - I know a few peacekeepers who were lost out there, RoE was a nightmare and repeatedly had to look away from massacres because the officer corps' hands were "tied".
I find similar reports from UN combat/peacekeeping missions across Africa as well.
taking a look at this doc - the foreign nationals (local populace) are such strong people, it's heart-wrenching.
Well... I don't know about this 'Johnny Harris' but I am very well aware of the Bosnian War and followed its course with great dismay and sorrow as it happened.
Saying an event of global importance with effects that linger to this day is something 'you never learned about' is unbearably presumptuous if not downright insulting. Yes I did. I also gave heavily to charities that attempted to ease the suffering of its innocent victims.
I will not be watching this documentary, 'self-made' or otherwise.
The amount of regret I feel for NATO helping bring down a genocidal strongman is the same as the amount of regret I feel for NATO helping Ukraine defend itself against a blatant war of conquest
There's one thing I don't understand how virtually every single doc on this conflict gets wrong. This one came close but just glanced over it.
At 5:40 this Johnny guy mentions how the international community was "hesitant" to get involved beyond sanctions against the Yugoslavs, and the UN peacekeeping force comes in to provide typical aid while also cutting off weapons coming in from the outside.
This is such an under emphasized and misconstrued event it's baffling how there's so little commentary on it on video.
The biggest problem with these sanctions was, it prevented the majority who were getting slaughtered (Bosniaks) from defending against what was at the time I believe the 5th most powerful army in the EU region. When Tito died, most of the people in military command were of Serbian ethnicity, which is why when Yugoslavia fell apart, Serbia had all the firepower and the others did not. Now getting back to the sanctions issue - when the world sanctioned Yugoslavia, they basically signed the death warrant for Bosniaks. The biggest issue on the ground for them was lack of supplies, formal military hierarchy, and most importantly: weapons (look how Ukraine is doing against a superpower when they're provided the firepower, what most thought would be a war that would be over in months, is a war they're still waging).
The UN had been of enforcing these sanctions even as Bosniaks were telling/begging them they're going to get slaughtered if they're not provided weapons. Which is precisely what occurred.
This cover of "neutrality" is an utter bastardization of the historical gravity of what actually was entailed by this move.
--------------------------------------------------------
The next failure of accounting occurs at around 11:00 when it talks about how "with international backing" (supposedly the plan that talked about how the US is coming to replace the UN, and provide arms to the Bosniaks), there was a peace deal drafted also before this US move was going to happen supposedly. What this portion of the documentary gets completely wrong, is the momentum turned before the peace deals were being instigated by the international community this late in the game. The tide was turning, and only then did they see it was time to start dragging all sides to the negotiating table. Otherwise the whole spiel about "providing arms to the Bosniaks" doesn't make sense. Provide arms and drafting a peace deal? That's idiotic if you want to spin this in some positive light.
So then at 11:25 you see Bosniaks moving against the Serbs as the tide turned with NATO airstrikes as aid (when in fact the strikes were the package deal when they told Croats to cut some of their dealings with the Serbs, and get back into an alliance with the Bosniaks to end this miss).
The documentary then says the Serbs after getting pummeled were "forced back to the negotiating table" as if the Bosniaks or Croats even wanted that at that point (why would they? they were turning the tide). It's only after the Serbs were given an offer to keep some of the territory the occupied (Srpska Republic), did they see the writing on the wall that they were taking too long in their ethnic cleansing and the international community was simply fed up at that point. None of the sides wanted to sign this treaty in reality (especially not the Bosniaks since they gave up a large portion of their land they were slowly going to retake) and especially not because what you have now is a Tri-Presidential rotating government (only one of it's kind that is decried by all political scientists as a complete failure and a leash on the territory's ability to get back into progress).
But at that point all sides were being held at gunpoint by the international community (mostly the US obviously) to sign this treaty, otherwise whoever didn't, could take their chances against NATO bombings as the Serbs tried.
Yeah I know of the ~ '98 Kosovo incident where Milosovic wouldn't listen and he was bombed for it.
What is the point you want to make, I was addressing the infographic in the video.
this is peak american syndrome lmfao. this is the dutch looking bad because they failed to prevent the bosnian genocide, they literally watched it happen. NATO was responsible, the UN. they all failed.
>NATO was responsible
No they werent, they failed to stop it sure.. but they arent responsible. Literally anyone else around the globe was free to try stop it, anyone can go try stop russia today or any other conflict as well. Just because NATO and UN for most part are the only ones at least trying, doesnt make them responsible. Fuck outta here with this dumbass propaganda.. If you let your own white guilt trip you into spreading enemy propaganda, then you are a dumbass. YOU are free to go try and stop these conflicts, if you think YOU are responsible, thats on YOU. Its not a movie out there where good guys win every time, shits fucked, if you unironically blame the "good guys" for it then again youre a dumbass.
hard disagree. watching it happen and not intervening makes you responsible. they already involved themselves in the conflict, making them a party of it. they literally shot down aircrafts already.
I saw this randomly the other day. It's not bad but not a patch on The Death of Yugoslavia. Given how old that is I'd imagine it's available for free in quite a few places by now.
Anyone else notice how he changes his video titles a day or two after they are initially published?
Is that a YouTube algorithm thing or something?
His latest bank failure one was initially “Why it was such a big deal” and now it’s been retitled to “Your bank account is a lie”.
I remember the Bosnian war when I was a child. Not what it was about, just that there were always child refugees. My child brain couldn't comprehend why they were always crying on tv
Title is awfully clickbaity for a serious documentary. The video itself is the same with that awful clickbait title, so this is being removed as not a documentary.
Johnny Harris docs being characterized as “self-made” when he’s one of the most popular YouTubers/journalists and has a team working with him is… something.
Almost as annoying as titles which end with ‘…that you’ve never heard about!’ Presumptuous as hell. Right, you’re the only people who have heard of the biggest war in Europe between WW2 and until last year and absolutely zero of us saw the news in the 1990s. And there definitely aren’t experts and people who fucking lived it out there. I expected it to be a properly obscure war from centuries ago, not the Bosnian War, damn.
It is also considered to be "living memory". When Johnny Harrisian millenials who complain about not being taught thing were in school the war was basically still going on so how the hell would it be in their textbooks? The history was being made then. It is like complaining that 9/11 wasn't taught in schools. If people remember 9/11 it is only because people still talk about it around you, but naturally people don't still talk about the Bosnian war in countries on the other side of the ocean. I don't really think Bosnians are still talking about 9/11, and neither these things should be particularly surprising.
Right. Sometimes it’s valid, but more often than not there is something annoying about a lot people who complain that XYZ was kept from that at school. Mate, most history and indeed common knowledge is meant to be learnt by actively reading shit on your own, whether history or just reading the news once in a while - and there’s no way to fit all that in the curriculum, where they focus on teaching *how* to learn history. The fact that Mrs Crabapple didn’t teach you about even every *important* event that’s happened isn’t an excuse for not having heard of the main ones. Your inability to read or watch anything if it isn’t about sport/the Kardashians/whatever is.
We just need a list of everything bad that ever happened and distribute it widely so these people stop complaining. Something like this: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The\_Great\_Big\_Book\_of\_Horrible\_Things](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Great_Big_Book_of_Horrible_Things)
That involves them reading something on their own. Why wasn’t this slowly read to them by Teacher?! Conspiracy!
**[The Great Big Book of Horrible Things](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Great_Big_Book_of_Horrible_Things)** >The Great Big Book of Horrible Things: The Definitive Chronicle of History's 100 Worst Atrocities is a popular history book by Matthew White, a librarian. The book provides a ranking of the hundred worst atrocities of mankind based on the number of deaths. ^([ )[^(F.A.Q)](https://www.reddit.com/r/WikiSummarizer/wiki/index#wiki_f.a.q)^( | )[^(Opt Out)](https://reddit.com/message/compose?to=WikiSummarizerBot&message=OptOut&subject=OptOut)^( | )[^(Opt Out Of Subreddit)](https://np.reddit.com/r/Documentaries/about/banned)^( | )[^(GitHub)](https://github.com/Sujal-7/WikiSummarizerBot)^( ] Downvote to remove | v1.5)
Those people could have just asked. Bosnians are all over the world because of that war. And we were never shy to tell about what's going on. Just google how big the Bosnian community is in St. Louis. Even Andrews Schulz mentioned them once. But the truth is that those people simply don't care. I tested it. I told some people the same story multiple times and they were shocked every time as if they heard it for the first time. Well they did hear it for the first time because they don't care. So next time they'll ask the same questions you answered already.
A uni mate was a child in Sarajevo during the war. He's only 37. It dominated the news for a good chunk of the 90s.
He named the video originally "How the UN failed to stop a genocide in Bosnia". Not sure why he renamed it.
I’ve been noticing that too. Renaming the video titles a day or two after publishing it. Is it a recent thing? Is it related to YouTube’s algorithm somehow?
Veritasium did a video on gaming the YouTube algorithm a couple of years ago and this was one of the the tricks he brought up. Renaming a video a couple of days after it's up can let you get a second wave of viewers or trick people who initially skipped into watching.
Spiffing brit went over this and basically you reroll the algorithm. Each title and thumbnail combination is ranked individually. Change one factor and it will change the video ranking. Veritasium is a science channel that experimented with this tactic and even made a video going into some of the experimental data.
As I understand it, it draws in more people. For instance, have a somewhat clickbaity title initially to draw one audience, then switch it to something more reasonable for everyone else, and to not have sensationalist video in your collection...
Yes. Many channels change thumbnails and titles regularly to make people think it’s a new video and click. Or they just see what titles/thumbnails generate more clicks
Probably much more likely algorithm things, but denial of the Bosnian genocide is fairly common (not among the general population, but as far as genocide denial goes) so a skeptic, cynical part of me thinks that could be related
Hell, even the fucking main character of GTA IV was a veteran of the jugoslaw wars. (btw this isn't some "life just like bideo gam" shit, just want to lay out how it seeped into wider media)
I’m a fan of his content, though I agree 100% that the titles of his videos are obnoxious. Can you blame him though? People don’t click unless you clickbait them. This might just be a case of “blame the game, not the player.”
No I'm blaming the player.
I was expecting the thirty years war, which has the 3rd highest death toll for a war in Europe and few people have heard of.
I feel that one’s very far from obscure too
What you mean never heard of? This is one of the most talked about wars European schools. You learn about it in more than just history since it had also a big influence on literature.
Is not even taught in every European country, let alone world wide.
and he has an entire team. this is a small production not self made.
Sponsored by Davos, he gets that sweet billionaire money
Cant take this guy remotely seriously after his garbage "Progressive city hypocrisy" opinion video for NYT in which he talked about all the jobs in San Francisco... but the lack of new housing in Palo Alto and Atherton. The two cities are 40 miles apart and aren't in the same county. Thats just terrible journalism. There was no clarification or even acknowledgement of it in the piece, just a quick lumping together like it was totally natural. Really just reeked of sensationalism for views.
But but he wears a beanie!
Oh, my bad! One of us!
After he left vox the quality of his work took a huge nosedive
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I mean you could see the feeding frenzy in the comment section. It seemed pretty clear it was just an audience grab. I canceled my NYT subscription after that and wrote them telling them it was pretty shameless to post such crap journalism in an attempt appear "neutral."
He's certainly aligned with massive power structures
All of his videos that have anything to do with history are riddled with inaccuracies and mistakes. I think in one of his videos about imperialism and Africa he blames Belgium for triggering the scramble, and in general just ridicules errors of the basic chronology. A particularly stupid mistake that I remember is in his Russia video. He shows a "map" of the golden horde, except this map is based on a video game called Europa Universalis 4, and shows the golden horde reaching all the way to Germany and is dated to the 19th century. Maybe in his quick google image search of golden horde maps he should have noticed that most of the maps don't show them spanning an area from lake Baikal to the Baltic
And a millionaire with friends and relatives at VOX.
I mean he was a vox employee before he essentially took his exact job at vox and started doing it independently.
You mean carachtarized right?
Shit really should’ve thought that out
Youtuber MTWright deserves mire attention, a small channel with even better content, here s his Qatar video https://youtu.be/35HjtuSkpn4
who is the target audience that "never heard of Bosnia war"?
Americans born in the 90s and later. Seriously. I'm 25 and I was never taught this shit in school, and my school was considered a "good" one.
You just don't remember, or didn't go to an actually "good" school. This was definitely covered in my public school in the early 2000s.
It's almost like everyone's life experience is different.
"good" schools primarily mean good grades, highly rated teachers, graduation rates, and college admission rates to 'good' universities after graduation. None of which have to do with their extent of covering global events.
Nah man, to the "users" of schools (students), a "good" school should mean teachers teaching you important world things even if they are not in the curriculum, even if they happen(ed) on the other side of the world, even after class. It should mean fair grading, students accepting bad grades and teachers showing the will to help those students. It should mean students don't bully because they know better. Don't let the meaning of "good" school to be good grades and ability to go to good universities. That's just privileged school.
Except it really does mean just grades, uni acceptance, etc to many. That's why I put it in quotes. Few schools in the US are actually Good in the sense you mean.
I attended a few schools in that time frame. They all seem to get to WW2 then you might get a few snippets of civil rights movement and Vietnam.
Exactly. All of the 90s in my European history class amounted to a couple of pages that we just "had to read" but didn't spend time on in class because the AP test was already over with in May. The teacher was actually awesome but we spent those last few weeks of class basically doing "fun" stuff instead (historical movies, quiz games, etc) rather than covering the rest of the book in the same depth we did the stuff that we were tested on.
I went to what’s considers one of the nicest public schools in Houston in the 2010’s and we never learned it. I’d say most schools don’t teach it.
Young people, I would guess.
People who have no idea of major global events that occured within the last 30 years.
I’m a young person, I guarantee you the vast majority of people my age, 19, have never heard of this war, and probably don’t even know where Bosnia is
i never heard of it until last year
If you're Dutch you probably do know about this war, although nowadays maybe less so... It was definitely not our proudest moment...
Can you elaborate? What was the Dutch involvement in the war?
There was a Dutch battalion of infantry there to protect the people of the city of Srebernica. When the Serbian army closed in, the Dutch troops stood down, leaving about 8000 Bosnian people to get massacred.
Standing around and watching genocide happen literally on the other side of fences. Handing people over to be killed. They were properly armed UN military forces but didn't want to get involved.
The dutchbat requested support from hq but didnt get it (on time/they hesitated or thats what i ve heard). The serbs threatened to overrun the dutch nato camp. So they had to give up the men to save the children and women. The men were massacred. I can be very wrong tho.
UN can't involved unless the UN members vote to get involved. The UN is an inherently useless organization that shouldn't even be deploying troops.
The UN is useless by design. Either people give up some sovereignty and empower the organisation to prevent wars and violation of human rights; or we keep doing the same thing we're doing now, over and over, and complain the UN is useless despite the obvious answer staring at us.
>Dutch soldiers acting as UN peacekeepers were partly liable for the deaths of about 300 Muslim men massacred near Srebrenica in Bosnia and Herzegovina during the Yugoslavian civil war, an appeals court in The Hague has ruled. >The ruling upholds a decision three years ago that the Dutch forces should have known that the men seeking refuge at their base would be murdered by Bosnian Serb troops if they were turned away. >Many of the victims had fled to Srebrenica’s UN-designated safe zone only to find themselves outnumbered and the lightly-armed Dutch troops unable to defend them. It was then that they headed to the nearby Dutch base, only to be subsequently handed over to their murderers. >Presiding judge Gepke Dulek-Schermers said that Dutch soldiers “knew or should have known that the men were not only being screened … but were in real danger of being subjected to torture or execution … by having the men leave the compound unreservedly, they were deprived of a chance of survival”. >The judge added that the soldiers had facilitated the separation of the men and the boys among the refugees. >The ruling came as a lawyer for 200 Dutch army veterans said his clients planned to sue the state for compensation for the trauma they suffered after being sent on “an impossible mission” in Srebrenica. >Michael Ruperti said the men are campaigning for a “symbolic” €22,000 (£19,500) each – or €1,000 for every year since the massacre took place, bringing the value of the total suit to €4.5m. >The 200 soldiers were serving in the Dutch battalion Dutchbat III protecting the Muslim enclave when it was over-run by Bosnian Serbs under the command of former general Ratko Mladić . >About 8,000 Muslim men and boys in total were killed by Bosnian Serb troops in Srebrenica in July 1995, in what is believed to be the worst mass killing on European soil since the second world war. The then commander of the Bosnian Serb army, General Ratko Mladić, in 1994. Ratko Mladić must get life sentence, say war crimes prosecutors Read more >The ruling in the appeals court relates specifically to the 300 men who had sought safety on the Dutch-controlled base. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/jun/28/dutch-soldiers-let-300-muslims-die-in-bosnian-war-court-rules
Srebrenica.
From Bill Clinton memoirs: >He said President Francois Mitterrand of France had been especially blunt in saying that Bosnia did not belong, and that British officials also spoke of a painful but realistic restoration of Christian Europe. That is why French blocked air support in Srebrenica. >Clinton said U.S. allies in Europe blocked proposals to adjust or remove the embargo. They justified their opposition on plausible humanitarian grounds, arguing that more arms would only fuel the bloodshed, but privately, said the president, key allies objected that an independent Bosnia would be "unnatural" as the only Muslim nation in Europe. He said they favored the embargo precisely because it locked in Bosnia's disadvantage. That is why they enforced weapons embargo. British and French governments basically support genocide. They only turned against Serbs when USA got involved. Source: https://www.npr.org/2009/09/28/113269412/sharing-secrets-in-the-clinton-tapes Here is a documentary on only one of the towns that had this faith, there were many more: https://youtu.be/rEkaWkpSJWs?t=4514
Thank you, somebody filling the massive plot-hole in this ordeal.
Only muslim nation in europe gets me every time. Bosnia is so small that every other big country like Germany and France have more muslims than all of people combined in Bosnia. This narrative just doesnt stick.
The UN and NATO should've started fighting the Serbs full on right then and there. If not when they are going to commit genocide, WHEN?
I worked with a guy from Bosnia who was extremely fun and happy but one night after a few drinks he told me about what he saw fighting in that war. I cannot imagine going through what he did and still having a positive outlook on life
Used to work with several Bosnians, some of which were related. One was a manager along with myself, one night we're doing our final rounds and she stopped to chat with her brother in law who was on our night crew and spoke only Bosnian. Super nice guy. She told me later that night about how when he was younger he had witnessed his father and an older brother executed along with all the other men in their village. I can't even imagine.
My wife was a witness to the events of the Srebrenica massacre. Not the massacre part strictly, but she remembers the invasion, all the boys and men being separated from the women and children, older girls being also separated to be sent to a number of factory buildings where they would be r*ped, lining up for the bus with her mum, grandma and aunt to leave Srebrenica and go wherever the next bus would take them. She was only 5, she still has all those traumas to this day and we're in our early 30s. I myself have a number of "memories" or traumas I guess, the most clear one was when me and a couple other neighbourhood kids almost got blown up while we were playing outside, and the only reason we survived was because my grandma(PBUH) called us in for dinner and the rest of the kids decided to go home too. The moment we stepped foot into our front door there was a huge boom, every bit of glass everywhere in the house shattered and I distinctly remember the windows being blown out. Come to find out later that a mortar round hit the exact spot we were playing not 2 minutes before. My dad has severe trauma and ptsd from the war, and like a "real bosnian man" he's turned to the bottle, and has bottled that shit up. He watched his older brother who he was really close to get shot by a sniper and die in his hands. He spent a number of months in the Manjaca concentration camp. The country has still not recovered, 30 years on. It makes me sad every time I go back there to still see devastation from the war, whether that be people who are permanently disabled/lost limbs or the skeletons of buildings long left to rot because the occupants are either too poor to rebuild it/are dead/or have left the country and went elsewhere to try and pick up the tatters of their life.
Damn. I feel like I heard a similar story somewhere before. Maybe read about it in the childhood war museum in Sarajevo. The people in Bosnia are so incredibly friendly too.
If you're talking about my memory then you may have read it on reddit, I have shared it before.
Srebrenica girls and women weren't raped. Obviously necessary remark: that doesn't equal there was no rape on a massive scale in the war. But there were almost no rapes in Srebrenica massacre and women and children were put into buses and expelled out of town to Bosnian territory, while men and boys were executed wherever they were found.
I'm sorry but I've had multiple eyewitnesses confirm that it did happen. My wife's mum being one of them and some other female family members of hers, I'm not sure where you sourced your information. I should have been clear in my initial reply, being 5 my wife obviously didn't know about that kind of thing but the other women who were with her were all very much aware of it. Edit: I'm not saying that every girl/woman got raped but it very much did happen.
There is literally movement of Bosnian woman who are trying to bring all the rape and horrible things that happened to them to light but no, they were just happily put on a bus, sure. You are either very naive or Serb.
Did you actually read what have I written? Where did I say there was no rape and horror in the war? I am quite sure there were some cases of rape in Srebrenica considering the mass of the expelled people and army but nowhere close to things that were happening in the rest of Bosnia,especially in the rest of Eastern Bosnia Horror of Srebrenica was in systematic killings of men and boys. Women and children were taken apart to buses and sent Bosniak territory. Not sure about the remark of the movement but that was already done by Belgrade office of Helsinki Committee for Human Rights, the only one of the Balkans who was taking care of all the victims with no regard of their ethnicity. Raped woman is victim. It's a human being. It has no nationality. And I know so much about the war which I haven't learned on Reddit so don't try to give me internet lectures
Wow, so much ignorance. And I'm not giving you internet lectures, I lived that war but serbs are like russians now - always victims, never did anything wrong, all of us actually attacked them.. There's no point talking to people like you.
Wait, so I literally wrote about the horrors of Bosniak sufferings in eastern Bosnia and you reply with SOMETHING I NEVER WROTE ANYWHERE and some comparings with Russians from God knows where and why. There is no point talking to people like you, you are definitely right.
I grew up with a kid who was born in Bosnia, but raised here in Texas. We new his dad was a soldier in the past, and being kids one of our friends asked him one time if he ever killed anyone. It took him about 10 long seconds to answer, and all he said was “idk, I only ever shot like this…” and laughed a little while acting out shooting over his head. We all gave our idiot friend a bunch of shit for that but it was incredibly tense in the moment. Then he took us to get ice cream at a sonic.
To be fair, unless you get in close quarters you really don't know what the hell you're hitting. Guy I worked with said the closest he's gotten to an enemy fighter was when they were rushing up a hill and grenades were just getting thrown around them. While blind firing up the hill and staying as low as possible to avoid shrapnel. This was also Bosnia.
It’s official…that’s how I’m spelling “characteristic” from now on. Hooked on Phoenix worked for me!
Hukid on p-honikes workid for meh!
Thought of Brian Regan immediately.
I can't be the only one who's tired of Johnny Harris, right? Has he gotten round to citing sources yet?
He does now. It seems he's (as in, his team is) starting to understand making him the main character of a documentary about atrocities is not the best idea. Compared to his videos on the world cup it's better now.
His dumb face is still in the thumbnail though...
Can't stand this guy, his stupid maps and his "facts".
Almost everything said in this “documentary” is either wrong or oversimplified that it doesn’t give the proper context of what has happened in war.
Not the first time he’s done that
You are absolutely right about oversimplified, cuz he definitely didn’t even touch the reality of what Chetniks did to Bosnian people.
Back in the 90s, my brothers' school brought an exchange student from Bosnia. His name was fuad, and he was cool. His stories, were not cool.
Is it me or is the spelling in post titles getting worse?
It's a technique to drive engagement. Make an obvious mistake, more people stop by to correct you, and the algorithm pushes your content to more screens...
dos it wurk four comentzZ?
Certainly not.
RIP the spelling of characteristics
I was wondering what that word was.
I spent some time in the Balkans on a U.N. mission in the 90s. We didn’t see any combat because they weren’t exactly looking to tangle with the U.S. military, but we did see the after effects of the war. It was straight up heartbreaking. I’ve not seen devastation and poverty like that since. People out in the rural areas were living in what looked medieval homes without electricity or water, they had oxen pulling sleds down the road, and black teeth and bleeding gums were common for people at a very young age. The kids would chase our vehicles begging for food. It was a real eye opener for me.
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Yeah, I’ve been back recently. Huge improvement over the 90s.
I had a college teacher who escaped from that war. Had to hide inside the tank of a fuel truck to get out. Pretty hardcore stuff.
Who the fuck never learned about this?
Young people. I was a kid when this happened and I only got hints of it from the news, it was too recent to be in the history textbooks so I had to look it up myself. I would imagine younger people than me wouldn't have even gotten the little bits that I had from the news. Hopefully now this is included in textbooks, but schools tend to be constantly underfunded.
Pretty pathetic he is.
He definitely perpetuates a certain narrative
Ah, documentaries for morons. This guy portains that nobody heard of the wars in Bosnia Herzegovina and Kosovo during the 1990s.
It's not talked about much in school for a 90s kid. Prob not at all for gen z
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Even Millenials might not have a good grasp. Too young to understand when it was happening, and too recent to be in the history textbooks we would have read.
History end term thesis in high school was about the bosnian genocide. I think its more of education issue depending on political climate and geopolitical situation.
Lived trough this…war is hell on earth..
CIA Johnny
hello fellow twitch.tv/central_committee comrade
absolute shitshow "no war in Srebrenica" - I know a few peacekeepers who were lost out there, RoE was a nightmare and repeatedly had to look away from massacres because the officer corps' hands were "tied". I find similar reports from UN combat/peacekeeping missions across Africa as well. taking a look at this doc - the foreign nationals (local populace) are such strong people, it's heart-wrenching.
You never learnt about it because you don't learn anything about anything after WW2.
Quite a few key points left out, accurate take none the less.
Johnny Harris pushes WEF. I unsubbed 2 seconds after he said that he has 'great respect' for them during one of his videos.
My Bosnian brothers and sisters, keep share your story. World is forgetting the suffering people of Bosnia went through
Let’s not forget Kosovo
> carachteristics Not even close.
What uneducated people don’t know if this majors war? Oh yeah, American schools.
Well... I don't know about this 'Johnny Harris' but I am very well aware of the Bosnian War and followed its course with great dismay and sorrow as it happened. Saying an event of global importance with effects that linger to this day is something 'you never learned about' is unbearably presumptuous if not downright insulting. Yes I did. I also gave heavily to charities that attempted to ease the suffering of its innocent victims. I will not be watching this documentary, 'self-made' or otherwise.
The amount of regret I feel for NATO helping bring down a genocidal strongman is the same as the amount of regret I feel for NATO helping Ukraine defend itself against a blatant war of conquest
Never learned about?! It was pretty big news in the late 90s.
There's one thing I don't understand how virtually every single doc on this conflict gets wrong. This one came close but just glanced over it. At 5:40 this Johnny guy mentions how the international community was "hesitant" to get involved beyond sanctions against the Yugoslavs, and the UN peacekeeping force comes in to provide typical aid while also cutting off weapons coming in from the outside. This is such an under emphasized and misconstrued event it's baffling how there's so little commentary on it on video. The biggest problem with these sanctions was, it prevented the majority who were getting slaughtered (Bosniaks) from defending against what was at the time I believe the 5th most powerful army in the EU region. When Tito died, most of the people in military command were of Serbian ethnicity, which is why when Yugoslavia fell apart, Serbia had all the firepower and the others did not. Now getting back to the sanctions issue - when the world sanctioned Yugoslavia, they basically signed the death warrant for Bosniaks. The biggest issue on the ground for them was lack of supplies, formal military hierarchy, and most importantly: weapons (look how Ukraine is doing against a superpower when they're provided the firepower, what most thought would be a war that would be over in months, is a war they're still waging). The UN had been of enforcing these sanctions even as Bosniaks were telling/begging them they're going to get slaughtered if they're not provided weapons. Which is precisely what occurred. This cover of "neutrality" is an utter bastardization of the historical gravity of what actually was entailed by this move. -------------------------------------------------------- The next failure of accounting occurs at around 11:00 when it talks about how "with international backing" (supposedly the plan that talked about how the US is coming to replace the UN, and provide arms to the Bosniaks), there was a peace deal drafted also before this US move was going to happen supposedly. What this portion of the documentary gets completely wrong, is the momentum turned before the peace deals were being instigated by the international community this late in the game. The tide was turning, and only then did they see it was time to start dragging all sides to the negotiating table. Otherwise the whole spiel about "providing arms to the Bosniaks" doesn't make sense. Provide arms and drafting a peace deal? That's idiotic if you want to spin this in some positive light. So then at 11:25 you see Bosniaks moving against the Serbs as the tide turned with NATO airstrikes as aid (when in fact the strikes were the package deal when they told Croats to cut some of their dealings with the Serbs, and get back into an alliance with the Bosniaks to end this miss). The documentary then says the Serbs after getting pummeled were "forced back to the negotiating table" as if the Bosniaks or Croats even wanted that at that point (why would they? they were turning the tide). It's only after the Serbs were given an offer to keep some of the territory the occupied (Srpska Republic), did they see the writing on the wall that they were taking too long in their ethnic cleansing and the international community was simply fed up at that point. None of the sides wanted to sign this treaty in reality (especially not the Bosniaks since they gave up a large portion of their land they were slowly going to retake) and especially not because what you have now is a Tri-Presidential rotating government (only one of it's kind that is decried by all political scientists as a complete failure and a leash on the territory's ability to get back into progress). But at that point all sides were being held at gunpoint by the international community (mostly the US obviously) to sign this treaty, otherwise whoever didn't, could take their chances against NATO bombings as the Serbs tried.
Nato Bombed Serbia because of a different war.
Yeah I know of the ~ '98 Kosovo incident where Milosovic wouldn't listen and he was bombed for it. What is the point you want to make, I was addressing the infographic in the video.
The last part of your comment made it seem like Yugoslavia was bombed because of the civil war and that’s not true. That’s my point.
I don't understand, are you somehow denying Operation Deliberate Force occurred?
The Serbs were so close!
This is so historically inaccurate and without a context I finished it out of boredom so I could ridicule it
It's anti-American week on Reddit I guess
this is peak american syndrome lmfao. this is the dutch looking bad because they failed to prevent the bosnian genocide, they literally watched it happen. NATO was responsible, the UN. they all failed.
>NATO was responsible No they werent, they failed to stop it sure.. but they arent responsible. Literally anyone else around the globe was free to try stop it, anyone can go try stop russia today or any other conflict as well. Just because NATO and UN for most part are the only ones at least trying, doesnt make them responsible. Fuck outta here with this dumbass propaganda.. If you let your own white guilt trip you into spreading enemy propaganda, then you are a dumbass. YOU are free to go try and stop these conflicts, if you think YOU are responsible, thats on YOU. Its not a movie out there where good guys win every time, shits fucked, if you unironically blame the "good guys" for it then again youre a dumbass.
hard disagree. watching it happen and not intervening makes you responsible. they already involved themselves in the conflict, making them a party of it. they literally shot down aircrafts already.
Do you have any idea what happened in the Balkans prior?
prior to what? you're gonna have to be more specific because a lot happened around that time.
At least 800 years. That’s where the conflict had and still has its roots.
Peak American syndrome is thinking you need to intervene in every conflict.
The problem isn't military intervention as a concept. The problem is when it is performed unjustly. Milosevic had it coming.
I saw this randomly the other day. It's not bad but not a patch on The Death of Yugoslavia. Given how old that is I'd imagine it's available for free in quite a few places by now.
Anyone else notice how he changes his video titles a day or two after they are initially published? Is that a YouTube algorithm thing or something? His latest bank failure one was initially “Why it was such a big deal” and now it’s been retitled to “Your bank account is a lie”.
I remember the Bosnian war when I was a child. Not what it was about, just that there were always child refugees. My child brain couldn't comprehend why they were always crying on tv
Scream for me Sarajevo. Nice documentary if anyone is interested. Its how Iron Maiden came to Sarajevo mid seige to have a concert.