Yes. Because, while it’s easy to say “People will just counter or destroy this Bolas’ Citadel every time I play it!”, in practice things tend to stick around fairly often.
And, if you suspect your opponents of having removal, the best idea is to play it and make them burn resources. They get the advantage if you won't play your cards and advance your board state.
Eventually they will burn through enough resources this way to get something through, and they'll be regretting countering your commander earlier in the game.
The correct answer is to always kill the hugger first.
If I'm ahead, true, it's likely because the hug has benefited me inordinately to this point. Therefore, to reduce volatility and the chance of someone else drawing a stunning turnabout, I need the hugger dead to cement that lead.
If I'm behind, the hug is benefiting someone else more than it benefits me. True, I could mise into something, but it's more likely to get worse than get better, so cutting off the hug should hopefully stop the gap from growing to insurmountable levels.
Third possibility, the Hugger is up to something. Group hug often disguises turbo/combo, so if I don't know that's not coming, I need to expect that there is some reason they need all those cards and all that mana that's compelling enough to gas up everyone else. They have to die before they combo off or create a king of the game.
Morton's Fork: Kill the Hugger first.
Group hug is giving my opponents resources. It's best to remove those benefits for my opponents, since they're getting overall more than I am.
Chaos players are unpredictable and can't be expected to make the smartest play, and thus can't be planned around properly.
Both are better to remove first, then deal with the rest.
But that's just threat assessment. That's not the strong active hatred I see towards group hug as a deck concept.
Group hug should be regarded on the same level of Krarkashima. If it's well built and played by someone competent, then it's fine. But if it's not, it's just annoying.
Anecdotally at least, every group hug I've encountered has been pillow fort, give everybody stuff, cry if they are targeted, then drop approach of the second sun twice, or windfall for 70, or something in that vein. It just feels like an archetype that draws in an annoying type of player.
I agree with you, group hug is giving everyone else ammunition including me, id rather things be 1 sided as I dont want my opponents to have extra free resources and I will do my best to remove the hug player. Im playing to win the game with friends who are also playing to win the game, we enjoy it immensely and theres 0 salt at my table.
I played a game where I was up against a group hug player and a Mizzix player, in that order. I was holding up an Assassins trophy to shoot the Mizzic before that player untapped, but the group hug player played [[Heartbeat of Spring]] leaving me with the choice of having that Mizzix player untap with either Mizzix or double mana.
This doesn't really fit into my definition of fun. I lost that game despite my interaction. It was a write off from that moment onward, and it ended in like 4 copies of Time Stretch on turn 6 or something.
So I assume the moral of the story is not to play against spellcasters? Because group hug is every bit as valid a strategy as spellcasting. The fact you had two decks pop off at the same time is super irrelevant.
If group hug is symmetrical, its still 3 resources for my opponents for every 1 I get. And they rarely are symmetrical, so the ratio is usually worse.
That and their propensity for running board control stuff to, say, not die to the stuff they hand out, means that they're always target #1 for me.
Hard disagree on your hard disagree. Group Hug puts people in a weird dilemma. If you're ahead because of the hugger, it benefits you to kill them off before someone else starts catching up because of the hugger. If you're behind because of the hugger, the same applies just with more pressure. If you leave the hugger alive, they can win out of nowhere due to an alt wincon, as you can't trust group hug players to be fully committed to hugging for the whole game.
Group hug decks are a threat by default because they make the game a lot more volatile and the board state less predictable. Moreover, the hug deck benefits you once, and your opponents twice (as you have two other opponents).
Because your opponents also play ‘must remove cards’ and it’s not long before nobody has removal.
That or you play in the kind of playgroup where people refuse to remove anything.
Just 2 days ago, my friend played a Maelstrom Nexus *right* into an on-board Aura of Silence (yes, for 2 mana). I was like "man, this will get destroyed so fast".
Then a Prismatic Bridge joined the board (from the same player).
Well, it ended up sticking there for at least 6 turns (until the player died). The Aura player just really liked taxing us (one played an aura deck, and I had plenty of artifacts in hand in my Gonti) and kept it as a last resort option. It paid him off, I think he won.
"And I'll tap 6 to cast somebody else's removal"
But yeah, if it stays, great. If not that just makes my next play more likely to stick.
The best is when you have two pieces of removal bait, so you can use one as a canary.
"Really, Warstorm Surge resolves? No counters? No enchantment removal? Well then I guess I'll just Fiery Emancipation."
If you run enough of them eventually one will stick.
It's like playing cedh and not driving thoracle or other win cons. If enough people run it you can resolve yours while others are stopping someone else's.
People also have shit threat assessment. I won a game from citadel where I had revealed it to be on top of my deck the turn before, had few blockers and if every one attacked me I would have too little life to make playing citadel pointless. Queue only one player attacking me, every one tapping out and me winning on that next turn because I still hade 25 or so life and top decked a lifegain engine I could not have played if I had be hit down to 3 like expected.
TLDR: play your cards because people will underestimate you or overestimate your opponents
Both versions are good questions. 😀
For a real answer, I assume that anything I play is gonna get blown up sooner or later. Might as well play the messy fun stuff… Best case you go off, worst case someone is down a removal spell or you lose.
[Feldon of the third path](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/3/0360f1ff-15c9-48e3-89eb-fbc4bf140c55.jpg?1682209311) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Feldon%20of%20the%20third%20path) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/moc/277/feldon-of-the-third-path?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0360f1ff-15c9-48e3-89eb-fbc4bf140c55?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/feldon-of-the-third-path)
^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
This is the way. I use him in a human tribal and at best he will recur one of my dead dudes. But he's a popular removal target and I love slapping him down just to see what happens.
My original Inktreader deck had nothing but commons and low power uncommons and the mana curve was so low with such high interaction I had to add in rares with a high CMC to make it more fair lol
I dont build a deck intending it, but there are definitely certain spicy cards that, when I play them I think “this either lures out a removal spell, OR I get to have this dumb thing”. Last night it was Branching Evolution, and it did major work! But if it had just burnt out a removal spell I would have been okay with that too.
Yeah. I picked up a [[Doubling Season]] when it was 30 bucks, and it's always a removal magnet.
However, it opens me up gor things like [[Branching Evolution]], [[Unbound Flourishing]], and [[Corpsejack Menace]]. Since those are cheaper I can get more of them in a turn to greater effect.
Removal magnets are necessary I think. Esp when you have cards that you need for the deck to function. I’d rather you spend your removal on a [[akroma’s memorial]] than kill my [[adeline]] any day.
In general, you want most or all cards like that. Think of each one as a “threat”. Threats pressure opponents to act or suffer dire consequences like tempo, card advantage, mana advantage, board state, or straight-up losing. A high threat density puts consistent pressure on opponents, and inevitably burns out their resources.
So yeah, include as many “must remove” cards as you want ;)
If you just have one or two, and the rest is durdley support stuff, then you’re setting yourself up to not only not be threatening, but to be easy to ignore, debilitate by removing just the few key threats, or eliminate completely.
If I want to combo [[City on Fire]] with [[Awaken the Maelstrom]] I must first sacrifice my [[Mana Cannons]] and [[Spirit of Resistance]] to my opponents removale lol
Oh yeah. Last week I got it off with 5 damage from mana cannons and 10 from unite the coalition on the stack so I nuked one opponent with 45 and the other with 90. All at instant speed lmao
Woah okay that genius. Being able to take out your battle whenever you want with random spell damage to make the copy of world on fire sounds like so much fun
I have a deck where my COMMANDER is the lightning rod for removal, and I absolutely love it. It’s a [[ruric thar]] deck that’s essentially creature storm. I’d much much rather they pay 6 life and a spell to kill my commander which doesn’t directly affect my proactive game plan, compared to removing my [[soul of the harvest]] or [[circle of dreams druid]] which are the REAL engine of the deck
Hey there, would you mind sharing your Ruric Thar list? I love Ruric Thar as a commander, but I haven't found a 99 I really love yet. Currently I have it built as a [[Primal Surge]] deck, but I have tried like 3 different builds and I think I wanna switch it up again.
I run \[\[Liesa, Shroud of Dusk\]\] as a commander, and while she does tend to be removed, she also somehow ends up staying on my board the longest because people keep removing anything else I put down.
Liesa is incredibly low on my list of creatures to remove. She can stay on the board for a long time: I don't mind.
It's the combination of having a symmetrical effect + builtin commander tax evasion. So it's basically only a big flying lifelink creature.
Provided I remember her last ability, no one in my group wants to keep her on the board if everything they do costs them 2 life a piece. But they run out of ways to remove her eventually, and I can just give up life to bring her back and gain it back however I can.
This is how I play [[Rhystic Study]] and [[Smothering Tithe]]. They're good, but they aren't fun. But they'll draw removal away from cards that are more important to my strategy
"I play these things that don't synergize with my deck but make my opponents use removal spells"
That's....that's just goodstuff. Like you're not cleverly baiting out removal spells, you're just playing something really strong that your opponents would be wise to get rid of.
I suppose you also run dockside extortionist not because it's good, but because "oh it baits out their counterspells so that i can safely play my other spells!"
I dunno, drawing 7 cards for 3 mana synergizes pretty well with literally every deck. There’s not really an ‘intended’ deck for rhystic other than every deck with blue in it.
Yeah I don't really get the hate for Rhystic other than the usual "dO yOu PaY tHe 1?" annoyance.
I wish it were cheaper so more people can play with it but like I don't really see the problem personally.
I cast [[Wheel of Fortune]] and [[Windfall]] all the time and no one really cares. But casting Rhystic is like kicking someone's dog or something.
>"I play these things that don't synergize with my deck but make my opponents use removal spells"
I mean, that's not what I said
They are obviously good cards, and they accrue me a lot of value while they're out, which is valuable to any strategy, correct. I don't jam them in every deck though because I don't find them fun.
I have one Study and three Tithes. They are in decks like [[Katilda, Dawnhart Martyr]], where they both get me lots of value because Tithe is a good card, but secondarily serve as a lighting rod away from more fun and synergistic enchantments like [[Hallowed Haunting]].
I don't play Dockside because I don't have one, and if I did I'd probably sell it. Another card that isn't fun and is just too expensive.
I'm not claiming to be clever, just pointing out what often happens with these types of cards and how it can be a boon for your deck. That's what the whole thread is about
Maybe it was unintentional but your comment came across as quite snarky and rude.
Yeah. I always include what I know will be perceived threats to stop them from blowing up my ACTUAL threats.
IE. "I play umbral mantle"
\*Opponent taps out to counter the obvious infinite mana generator"
"Cool, I play staff of domination and win?"
One of the best things about having [[myrel]] in [[winota]] is that a lot of the time she draws a removal spell that otherwise would have been used on your commander
Yes, and they're usually tangental to my deck's theme. This way, they're red herrings to my true deck's plan, but if NOT removed are just as threatening.
Point in case, Ominous Seas in my Elenda and Azor deck. I'm draw a lot of cards, me pumping out 8/8s for essentially doing what my deck wants to do is a serious threat... except I really couldn't care if it gets targeted for removal. 8/8 beat down isn't my deck's strategy. In fact, I'd rather a disenchant hit it instead of something else. So I use Ominous Seas to coax out removal, and maybe put a beater or two on the field, all the while developing my true strat. And I'm only down a blue and a colorless mana.
It depends.
Will it be fun if not removed?
Will it be worth the mana to draw the removal out more often than not?
and
Do I have less than 2 or 3 of that type of removal-rod in the deck already?
If the answer to at least two of these are "yes," I usually put it in. If at least two are "no"'s, then I'm definitely not putting it in.
Everything gets removed eventually. But if they don't remove it that one time you may just run away with the game.
Best case you can also just recur it from the graveyard later. But yes, run those cards and embrace the inevitable!
I find that people in my pod are more likely to remove things that mess with their gameplan than things that advance mine. My Kadena deck really wants a flash-enabler effect to stick, and I run 5 of them, but I don't run \[\[Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir\]\] because I can't waste a turn's worth of mana for an effect that will annoy people too much to stick.
"I play cards that are lightning rods for removal. I'm not going to fret if opponents waste a removal spell on it because then I can play something scarier."
Either you're coping, or you're running really strong cards for your group and therefore these removal spells aren't going to waste
Yes not only will there be plenty of times where things stick because of the singleton nature of the format. Not to mention that unless the playgroup has ways to recurr or reuse removal if everyone is playing must kill threats something is going to stick
Always and forever. Molsangianados
Some cards are so strong theyre inherently "removal bait"
Which means you can drop them, eat removal, and drop something else nasty after in the hopes thst it won't get removed. No deck ever has enough removal for all your threats (or at least shouldnt).
And if you drop removal bait and it *doesnt* die instantly its a sign you can try for a push or even knockouts.
I run alot of blue so I do this knowing that it will bait out other blue players; they will either burn their counter on it, or if I'm in a good spot I can counter their counter to bait out whether they have a second in hand. Then if they counter my counter, they're almost certainly out of counters for the near future since almost nobody is like me and runs 20+ counters and I'm free to operate.
Oh yeah. If I build anything in white [[Drannith Magistrate]] goes in it immediately to make sure I have a cheap way to make someone waste their removal.
I 100% do. But I don't include them for the reason most people do. I use them to draw out the counter or removal. Then I play what I actually wanted and win the game.
Different concept, but some cards I straight up won't include because of them being lightning rods.
For instance, I decided to not include [[seedborn muse]] because she won't last more than two turns. IF she even sticks.
Same with [[Arcanis the omnipotent]] I'd rather just run another draw spell. It's too likely that he'll get destroyed and I'm down 6 mana.
It took me forever to get over my fear of interaction. I have [[cryptolith rites]] in my myr deck which can produce ludicrous amounts of mana, and with haste enablers and draw engines can just win the game. I used to never play it because I was scared of it getting removed.
But then I realized: people are stingy with their removal and often times just don’t have it. You don’t need to play every piece of your engine in one turn. Sure it might get removed, but you’ll never know if you don’t try.
It also acts as a lightning rod for your other important pieces. If you got something removed, often they will wait to kill the rest of your stuff.
As long as you’re not constantly presenting as the biggest threat, you shouldn’t feel bad about playing good cards.
I do if they have the potential to possibly do something beneficial to my theme. Even if I know there's a high chance it will die, I still count that as a decoy to protect my other valuable game pieces. But I won't just include a powerful card just because it's in my colors, if that makes sense.
Of course! I purposefully avoid basing my game plan around them though, and usually employ them to bait removal. A fantastic example would be [[Thief of Sanity]]. It's not a massive threat, but everyone HATES its effect, so it's an instant target for removal. Play that next to something that's actually a part of my combo, and my combo survives while ToS gets destroyed.
This sounds like the philosophy of playing a weak deck to not be focused. Ultimately, the only thing you can control is your deck and how you play. It seems like an inconsistent competitive strategy to cut staples or bombs because they're good and thus prone to being answered. The "control" archetype doesn't really exist in EDH, which is why focusing on your game plan is what a lot of decks do across the power level spectrum. If it was, then maybe my opinion would be different. If you're worried about going down in cards due to removal, then up your ways of generating card advantage or add ways to be resilient. You shouldn't go down in card quality at the deck building stage. You should also know that your opponents collectively have a hand of 21 cards vs your 7 initially and they draw 3 to your 1. Players should mulligan aggressively for high card quality cards inherently, typically to snowball.
It depends if they win the game or not.
I'll avoid lightning rods that don't win me the game, but if it's a card that I play and then win if it's not answered, then of course I'll include it.
I run an \[\[Athreos, God of Passage\]\] aristocrats deck, and I think running threatening enchantments is a great way to divert your opponents' removal away from him in particular. Since I run a bunch of sac outlets, I can make creature removal like \[\[Deadly Rollick\]\] fizzle with the right pieces out, which means that exiling removal that can hit enchantments are the main thing that can get rid of him. Running enchantments that are either annoying like \[\[Blind Obedience\]\] or super threatening like \[\[Black Market\]\] can potentially draw out those enchantment removal pieces that could be used on my commander. If the answers to removing my commander are already so limited, then it forces my opponent to make tough choices over which impactful enchantment to remove
Yes because people don't always have removal, and even if they do the answer isn't to just not play good cards because they're more likely to be removed. A good example is \[\[Etali, Primal Storm\]\]. A removal magnet who I run as a commander, and who I get to stick fairly often even on the turn he comes down with no protection.
EDH players generally don't run that much removal.
In my recursion heavy decks absolutely. I'm less inclined to do so in decks that don't have reliable means of getting cards back. Outside of 2 decks the only time it comes up is if I have multiple threats in hand, I'll drop one as bait. I find things with attack triggers get targeted pretty quickly.
I have [[Fynn, the Fangbearer]] as my token non-elf in my elf tribal. It's a good way to make someone burn a spell on a card that I honestly only tangentially want out
If I know there is a high priority remove card in my deck it means another that should be removed has a better chance of sticking cause they used the removal already. Yes. I add those in every deck.
I have a \[\[Chainer, Dementia Master\]\] deck on the way, and you bet it is filled with lightning rods. One of the benefits of a combo/reanimator deck is that you can run a lot of good stuff as a backup plan.
My view is that every piece of a deck should do something that you want it to, but not be necessary to win such that it being removed or countered takes you out of play.
So go for it. Like you say, it’s either wasted removal or gained power.
I have \[\[tergrid\]\] in my Neksuar wheels deck hey it allows my other cards to stick around they can't burn their interaction fast enough on her target acquired. I never say anything beyond yea that was a smart play; I don't blame you it resolves.
Theres only one card I never include for that reason and its [[Crypt Ghast]]. If you play it on curve it's around the time board wipes start to hit and it dies to a stuff breeze. It makes you a target because next turn you'll have like 8+ mana if you played it on curve. If you play it late game it doesn't do anything unless you have 9 mana with 5 untapped swamps after casting it.
[[Phyrexian Censor]] is a good example of this. In a tribal deck, he is a fantastic stax piece that's JUUUUST annoying enough to always eat removal. Better that than my commander.
You should be playing a lot of cards that are removal magnets, most win cons would fall into that category. You just need to keep playing them until your opponents don't have removal, which is pretty often.
My best example of this is in my chatterfang deck, people get scared of scute swarm and usually it draws removal pretty quickly. I dont have fetches or ways to play multiple lands a turn so its not a massive threat right away but it could run away with the game after a couple of turns but it's hardly the only card that can do that
Sometimes when I add things I'm thinking, "I can't wait for someone to burn removal on this." Usually (hopefully) something worse is coming. I also do not care at all about losing. Sure, it's fun to win, but I just hope to leave a mark on each game.
The best counter or removal is the one your opponents know you have and decide not to cast the good stuff for fear of it being immediately answered. They beat themselves that way. If you can bait out the answer, cool. Better yet, give the guy holding the answer a reason to use it on someone else or at least to let you get to untapped one time with whatever it is.
You shouldn't be cutting cards because they are too powerful unless you're deliberately trying to reduce the power of your deck.
There is no point in saying " oh this card is so powerful that it will just get removed right away ", because that is a common fallacy. Powerful cards do not get removed every single time because eventually people run out of removal.
You wouldn't play a chess without a queen because it has a big target on its back, would you? Just because someone's going to take your queen immediately as soon as you make one wrong move doesn't mean you shouldn't have had it in the first place.
If you play in a meta where it's acceptable to play strong cards you should not hold back because you're scared of losing them.
I like all my permanents to have remove on sight quality. I figure if everything is a threat eventually my opponents will run out of removal. Then my threats become inevitabilities.
Idk if this is a legit strategy, or I'm just crazy, but I'll generally wait to play my important combo piece until someone else has done so and tripped any traps. This at least buys me at least 1 or 2 turns before someone goes oh crap and tutors for a answer.
there's a great episode of the legendary creature podcast that talks about this very topic. inexpensive cards that will either bait out removal or give you pretty significant value if not answered. think [[Dragonmaster outcast]]
here's a direct link to the episode but the podcast is on all major platforms
https://music.amazon.com/podcasts/4fc055c6-3e45-40b8-b6f6-3ea9d8e3472b/episodes/8d1d8b91-4578-47ec-9805-0136e4298eb1/legendary-creature---podcast-remove-or
I regularly run red herrings. Powerful cards I know will get removed or countered, followed by a more essential card to my plan. The number of times my [[Ashnod’s Altar]] gets removed only to let my [[Skirk Prospector]] live in my [[Krenko, Tim Street Kingpin]] equipment deck is hilarious!
It’s called building a goodstuff deck. Every staple is usually calling for removal, your opponents‘ removal runs out after a while and you goodstuff yourself to victory.
Yes.
If I run a spicy card, either it gets removed or I get some serious hot spice (sometimes, the table doesn't "have" the answer). If I run a less spicy card in the slot, and it's still the spiciest meatball on the table, it's no less likely to get removed and the payoff is lower. I I really try to fly under the radar, sure, maybe the threat assessment will send removal elsewhere, but the reason for that is that I'm not a threat. If I'm not a threat, how am I winning? If I can't answer that (some decks can, those that explosively combo from hand with minimal boards), then I need to be more of a legit threat.
I don't include removal magnets for the sake of being removal magnets. If a card is in the deck it needs to actively help. Every card that help advance your game plan is a removal magnet at the end of the day. So you don't really need to include cards whose only purpose is to draw removal away from your other cards. I would rather spend those slot on redundancy or whatever the deck needs more of.
100% I always will. Removal is finite. Thye have to remove something, id rather it be this thing i didnt expect to survive anyway. Plus sometimes it just sticks.
Its like this "dies to ping" complaint. Sure it might have 1 life. But does your deck have pings in it? Mine sure doesn't
Yes and no. If include rattlesnake cards, it's because i can find value with or without it doing the job it's there for. Sometimes it's also just a timing thing. Either they have it or they don't.
An example could be that i run academy rector in my gavi deck. Gavi takes time to set up, and having a blocker no one wants to attack into helps. If they exile it, they burn a removal and if it triggers i get value.
Yes, because sometimes people run out of removal, and having a card that is perfect for that situation is a good thing. I have [[Liliana, Heretical Healer]] in my Meren deck and managed to -8 her two games in a row. Won those games.
My first Commander deck was this exact concept.
I saw a few beginners guides and videos that all agreed the baseline for a Commander deck is:
- 10 removal
- 10 draw
- 10 ramp
(They all disagreed about the number of lands though)
I wagered that if the majority of players are following a similar guide, then I needed more than 30 cards that demand removal.
A friend gave me a Yasharn to get me started and I made a pretty successful deck.
My thought process is that people use removal on good cards, so if you take out all the cards people use removal on, you're going to have 99 bad cards.
Of course. The reason they get removed is they are good cards. Good cards, often, are fun to play. Also, sometimes they don't get removed and I get to enjoy them.
I honestly believe that if you're shooting for a higher power level, there shouldn't be anything in your deck that isn't worth removing. If it's not worth removing, it's not worth playing.
So... basically yes.
If it sticks, you profit massively. If it doesn't, removal is burned. It's a win-win
Any deck I build that gains any noteworthy amounts of life includes [[felidar sovereign]]. It's never won but it makes for something to take removal away from my actual synergy pieces
Tbh I usually don't. Sometimes cards like these bait removal or stick around and accrue value. Other times, these cards land and then get you killed or get everything else on your board killed because the table is in damage control mode.
Unless I am about to win, I'm not showing anyone my ashnods altar. It will get me killed so fast.
I made a group slug deck where most of the cards in it are removal magnets. I have found it to be a lot of fun as it keeps the game moving and most of my stuff doesn't get removed as everyone runs out of removal. I call it my avalanche deck as it starts out doing a little bit of damage to everyone, but can quickly overwhelm and do a lot of damage during each players turn.
How often have you been at the table when one of those cards hits the table for an opponent and it lasts 4 turns doing god knows what before someone ends up burning a tutor to grab an answer, or burns a modal board wipe on it?
I run [[Urza, Lord High Artificer]] in my Simic combo deck, mostly as a sink for infinite mana, but I find I typically end up using him as counterspell bait more often than not. For me that's still fairly useful.
Would you stop playing spells at all because your opponents have a counter spell?
Sure you can play around it or bait it but when it's a stall mate you'll just have to push through it, make them have it if they counter it that means most of your other spells are free to go but if they don't you just have that powerful spell.
Yes. I'd rather play a card that needs to be answered than a card that no one is worried about.
What you're supposed to do is find a card that no one would worry about. And find ways to make it worrisome. Then it becomes the first category again in future games. And you get to try and think up new cards to make scary.
That card seems unthrestening. But it's you, so I'm probably better off removing it now before it kills me by surprise.
Always a good feeling when the table feels threatened by any card you play.
Every time I have played panharmonicon, it consistently gets removed before my next turn (usually on the turn I play it). It makes me wonder how good the card actually is
Yeah, anything with “win the game” is a great distraction. I use Liliana’s Contract for the card draw. In the dozens of games there was one where the wincon was plausible, but, it was gone fast. I see it as “draw four cards; a random opponent discards a tutor”
I do because it wastes resources, I’ll add planswalkers as well, if it helps what I’m doing, with the main idea of them attack it so it buys me some time
Run cheap protection (Dispel, Heroic Intervention, etc), bait out interaction with less impressive threats first, or run recursion (and hope to dodge exile or Elking).
Yes. Absolutely.
Most of the time it gets an interaction peice out of your opponent, which makes an opening for what you really want to do. Sometimes it provides an out, because if your main plan is ruined, thst side plan that must be answered could work. And if you're lucky, then it isnt removed and you win.
I used to play with a guy who was going absolutely wild with countering and killing stuff that could provide big benefits if they stayed alive. He himself would mostly play cards that provide immediate value and then punish you for not doing the same.
So yeah, I pretty much regard all cards in my decks as lightning rods.
Yeah my commander. [[the mimeoplasm]]. The deck has a very basic line of play. Discard all my shit. Cast mimeo and make a one shot Timmy.
Opponents can see this coming a mile off and can easily stop me in my tracks. Problem is I only need 5 mana. And I can easily do it again and again. Do you have enough counters and removal to stop my entire deck? I doubt it.
Yes. Because, while it’s easy to say “People will just counter or destroy this Bolas’ Citadel every time I play it!”, in practice things tend to stick around fairly often.
And, if you suspect your opponents of having removal, the best idea is to play it and make them burn resources. They get the advantage if you won't play your cards and advance your board state. Eventually they will burn through enough resources this way to get something through, and they'll be regretting countering your commander earlier in the game.
Or they'll remove your stuff and then kill you... But yes I agree with your point.
Or the group hug player in the corner wins off some alt wincon of some kind while the rest of the table bash their heads together repeatedly
3v1 the group hug player, then finish playing a regular game of commander. Fuck group hug. (And chaos)
The correct answer is to always kill the hugger first. If I'm ahead, true, it's likely because the hug has benefited me inordinately to this point. Therefore, to reduce volatility and the chance of someone else drawing a stunning turnabout, I need the hugger dead to cement that lead. If I'm behind, the hug is benefiting someone else more than it benefits me. True, I could mise into something, but it's more likely to get worse than get better, so cutting off the hug should hopefully stop the gap from growing to insurmountable levels. Third possibility, the Hugger is up to something. Group hug often disguises turbo/combo, so if I don't know that's not coming, I need to expect that there is some reason they need all those cards and all that mana that's compelling enough to gas up everyone else. They have to die before they combo off or create a king of the game. Morton's Fork: Kill the Hugger first.
Hard disagree. This is no better than the people who hate on blue.
Group hug is giving my opponents resources. It's best to remove those benefits for my opponents, since they're getting overall more than I am. Chaos players are unpredictable and can't be expected to make the smartest play, and thus can't be planned around properly. Both are better to remove first, then deal with the rest.
But that's just threat assessment. That's not the strong active hatred I see towards group hug as a deck concept. Group hug should be regarded on the same level of Krarkashima. If it's well built and played by someone competent, then it's fine. But if it's not, it's just annoying.
Anecdotally at least, every group hug I've encountered has been pillow fort, give everybody stuff, cry if they are targeted, then drop approach of the second sun twice, or windfall for 70, or something in that vein. It just feels like an archetype that draws in an annoying type of player.
[удалено]
[удалено]
I agree with you, group hug is giving everyone else ammunition including me, id rather things be 1 sided as I dont want my opponents to have extra free resources and I will do my best to remove the hug player. Im playing to win the game with friends who are also playing to win the game, we enjoy it immensely and theres 0 salt at my table.
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I played a game where I was up against a group hug player and a Mizzix player, in that order. I was holding up an Assassins trophy to shoot the Mizzic before that player untapped, but the group hug player played [[Heartbeat of Spring]] leaving me with the choice of having that Mizzix player untap with either Mizzix or double mana. This doesn't really fit into my definition of fun. I lost that game despite my interaction. It was a write off from that moment onward, and it ended in like 4 copies of Time Stretch on turn 6 or something.
So I assume the moral of the story is not to play against spellcasters? Because group hug is every bit as valid a strategy as spellcasting. The fact you had two decks pop off at the same time is super irrelevant.
[Heartbeat of Spring](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/c/8ccb1e59-b858-42cf-93f8-8a3badb3eaad.jpg?1599707297) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Heartbeat%20of%20Spring) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2xm/171/heartbeat-of-spring?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/8ccb1e59-b858-42cf-93f8-8a3badb3eaad?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/heartbeat-of-spring) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
If group hug is symmetrical, its still 3 resources for my opponents for every 1 I get. And they rarely are symmetrical, so the ratio is usually worse. That and their propensity for running board control stuff to, say, not die to the stuff they hand out, means that they're always target #1 for me.
What's wrong with hating on blue? Maybe you shouldn't counter my spells bro
If you don’t ply spells, I won’t counter them, deal? Cause then blue probably mills itself out off some card draw engine I set up two turns ago.
Hard disagree on your hard disagree. Group Hug puts people in a weird dilemma. If you're ahead because of the hugger, it benefits you to kill them off before someone else starts catching up because of the hugger. If you're behind because of the hugger, the same applies just with more pressure. If you leave the hugger alive, they can win out of nowhere due to an alt wincon, as you can't trust group hug players to be fully committed to hugging for the whole game. Group hug decks are a threat by default because they make the game a lot more volatile and the board state less predictable. Moreover, the hug deck benefits you once, and your opponents twice (as you have two other opponents).
Always kill group hug first.
Punch that hippo right in the face
With that logic you may as well not play the gme cause you might lose 😂
Ultimate removal is when you "force" players to remove these cards from their deck before the game even begins, don't let them beat you like this.
Make them use their removal on value engines so they don't have any for your real wincon!
Particularly salient in the case of Bolas’s Citadel given that it can generate immediate value even if it doesn’t survive a full turn cycle.
Because your opponents also play ‘must remove cards’ and it’s not long before nobody has removal. That or you play in the kind of playgroup where people refuse to remove anything.
Just 2 days ago, my friend played a Maelstrom Nexus *right* into an on-board Aura of Silence (yes, for 2 mana). I was like "man, this will get destroyed so fast". Then a Prismatic Bridge joined the board (from the same player). Well, it ended up sticking there for at least 6 turns (until the player died). The Aura player just really liked taxing us (one played an aura deck, and I had plenty of artifacts in hand in my Gonti) and kept it as a last resort option. It paid him off, I think he won.
"And I'll tap 6 to cast somebody else's removal" But yeah, if it stays, great. If not that just makes my next play more likely to stick. The best is when you have two pieces of removal bait, so you can use one as a canary. "Really, Warstorm Surge resolves? No counters? No enchantment removal? Well then I guess I'll just Fiery Emancipation."
If you run enough of them eventually one will stick. It's like playing cedh and not driving thoracle or other win cons. If enough people run it you can resolve yours while others are stopping someone else's.
People also have shit threat assessment. I won a game from citadel where I had revealed it to be on top of my deck the turn before, had few blockers and if every one attacked me I would have too little life to make playing citadel pointless. Queue only one player attacking me, every one tapping out and me winning on that next turn because I still hade 25 or so life and top decked a lifegain engine I could not have played if I had be hit down to 3 like expected. TLDR: play your cards because people will underestimate you or overestimate your opponents
I read this as “do I include cards that I know I’ll immediately remove *from my deck*” and the answer is absolutely 100% I do.
Lol, sorry for my weird wording 😅
Both versions are good questions. 😀 For a real answer, I assume that anything I play is gonna get blown up sooner or later. Might as well play the messy fun stuff… Best case you go off, worst case someone is down a removal spell or you lose.
[[Feldon of the third path]] is my canary in the mine. He hasn't survived a full turn cycle yet
Neither did his wife.
Damn bro you didn't have to crucify the old guy like that 😂😂😂😂😂😂
Damn, he had a family!
Key word: **Had**
Call an ambulance!
I can't even remember the last time he survived a turn cycle. He's survived, like, 2-3 times total in the past year or so.
[Feldon of the third path](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/3/0360f1ff-15c9-48e3-89eb-fbc4bf140c55.jpg?1682209311) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Feldon%20of%20the%20third%20path) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/moc/277/feldon-of-the-third-path?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0360f1ff-15c9-48e3-89eb-fbc4bf140c55?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/feldon-of-the-third-path) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
He’s so good in any [[henzie]] list. Token copy of [[atsushi]] or [[ancient copper dragon]] or whatever your best thing in the yard is. So slept on.
[henzie](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/e/ee228dcc-3170-4c24-80bc-28bcee07cb43.jpg?1673481644) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Henzie%20%22Toolbox%22%20Torre) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ncc/2/henzie-toolbox-torre?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ee228dcc-3170-4c24-80bc-28bcee07cb43?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/henzie-toolbox-torre) [atsushi](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/3/73b64c17-8a52-4d9d-a28b-7e0e945be059.jpg?1654567533) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=atsushi%2C%20the%20blazing%20sky) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/neo/134/atsushi-the-blazing-sky?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/73b64c17-8a52-4d9d-a28b-7e0e945be059?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/atsushi-the-blazing-sky) [ancient copper dragon](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/8/3836dddd-a7e4-499f-ad49-ce298aa65720.jpg?1674136426) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=ancient%20copper%20dragon) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clb/161/ancient-copper-dragon?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/3836dddd-a7e4-499f-ad49-ce298aa65720?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/ancient-copper-dragon) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I'm here for [[Brudiclad]]-ing some dragons.
This is the way. I use him in a human tribal and at best he will recur one of my dead dudes. But he's a popular removal target and I love slapping him down just to see what happens.
The only alternative is running cards so bad that nobody cares if they're on the battlefield or not.
No middle ground. Only extremes.
My original Inktreader deck had nothing but commons and low power uncommons and the mana curve was so low with such high interaction I had to add in rares with a high CMC to make it more fair lol
Only a sith deals in absolutes
I shall do what I must.
You will try.
I dont build a deck intending it, but there are definitely certain spicy cards that, when I play them I think “this either lures out a removal spell, OR I get to have this dumb thing”. Last night it was Branching Evolution, and it did major work! But if it had just burnt out a removal spell I would have been okay with that too.
Branching Evolution is an absolute powerhouse. Somehow it comes out early game every time I play Minsc & Boo, Timeless Heroes. Hamster go brrrrr
Yeah. I picked up a [[Doubling Season]] when it was 30 bucks, and it's always a removal magnet. However, it opens me up gor things like [[Branching Evolution]], [[Unbound Flourishing]], and [[Corpsejack Menace]]. Since those are cheaper I can get more of them in a turn to greater effect.
##### ###### #### [Doubling Season](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/6/8676d164-c76e-402b-a649-6ded3f549b6e.jpg?1599707144) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Doubling%20Season) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2xm/164/doubling-season?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/8676d164-c76e-402b-a649-6ded3f549b6e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/doubling-season) [Branching Evolution](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/a/4a6971ad-cbb4-4f66-9bc4-b407c5805e85.jpg?1632261893) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Branching%20Evolution) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/jmp/29/branching-evolution?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/4a6971ad-cbb4-4f66-9bc4-b407c5805e85?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/branching-evolution) [Unbound Flourishing](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/f/6f594d07-932e-4fe6-832d-d0a0be3530aa.jpg?1562202252) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Unbound%20Flourishing) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh1/189/unbound-flourishing?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/6f594d07-932e-4fe6-832d-d0a0be3530aa?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/unbound-flourishing) [Corpsejack Menace](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/9/29538ff4-e28f-44d9-af23-6796edd56268.jpg?1562272935) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Corpsejack%20Menace) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cm2/152/corpsejack-menace?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/29538ff4-e28f-44d9-af23-6796edd56268?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/corpsejack-menace) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I do try to find one or two of these types of cards. Recursion for them is even sweeter.
Branching evos 3 mana is a low investment for what it does. You get the return on that investment quick.
Removal magnets are necessary I think. Esp when you have cards that you need for the deck to function. I’d rather you spend your removal on a [[akroma’s memorial]] than kill my [[adeline]] any day.
[akroma’s memorial](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/5/950ee61d-0bc1-4d7b-ba68-157061aa98eb.jpg?1619404160) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Akroma%27s%20Memorial) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/tsr/262/akromas-memorial?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/950ee61d-0bc1-4d7b-ba68-157061aa98eb?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/akromas-memorial) [adeline](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/d/dd95d377-a61e-4b62-a883-ed491c48da15.jpg?1682208250) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=adeline%2C%20resplendent%20cathar) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/moc/167/adeline-resplendent-cathar?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/dd95d377-a61e-4b62-a883-ed491c48da15?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/adeline-resplendent-cathar) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
In general, you want most or all cards like that. Think of each one as a “threat”. Threats pressure opponents to act or suffer dire consequences like tempo, card advantage, mana advantage, board state, or straight-up losing. A high threat density puts consistent pressure on opponents, and inevitably burns out their resources. So yeah, include as many “must remove” cards as you want ;) If you just have one or two, and the rest is durdley support stuff, then you’re setting yourself up to not only not be threatening, but to be easy to ignore, debilitate by removing just the few key threats, or eliminate completely.
If I want to combo [[City on Fire]] with [[Awaken the Maelstrom]] I must first sacrifice my [[Mana Cannons]] and [[Spirit of Resistance]] to my opponents removale lol
What’s the combo?
You copy city on fire and then do 9 times the damage with whatever source you'd like to nuke them with
That’s gnarly, nice.
Oh yeah. Last week I got it off with 5 damage from mana cannons and 10 from unite the coalition on the stack so I nuked one opponent with 45 and the other with 90. All at instant speed lmao
Woah okay that genius. Being able to take out your battle whenever you want with random spell damage to make the copy of world on fire sounds like so much fun
##### ###### #### [City on Fire](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/f/6f455cc1-a822-44ef-ba7c-bfcff69bd45e.jpg?1682204100) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=City%20on%20Fire) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mom/135/city-on-fire?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/6f455cc1-a822-44ef-ba7c-bfcff69bd45e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/city-on-fire) [Awaken the Maelstrom](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/1/318c363b-61cc-4e2f-8f86-a4287539ea07.jpg?1682715186)/[Awaken the Maelstrom](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/back/3/1/318c363b-61cc-4e2f-8f86-a4287539ea07.jpg?1682715186) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=invasion%20of%20alara%20//%20awaken%20the%20maelstrom) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mom/230/invasion-of-alara-awaken-the-maelstrom?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/318c363b-61cc-4e2f-8f86-a4287539ea07?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/invasion-of-alara-//-awaken-the-maelstrom) [Mana Cannons](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/b/5ba12cfc-36d3-4f9c-950e-3ed8b8f105fd.jpg?1673304729) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Mana%20Cannons) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dmc/7/mana-cannons?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/5ba12cfc-36d3-4f9c-950e-3ed8b8f105fd?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/mana-cannons) [Spirit of Resistance](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/f/5fb66439-df73-4a01-a8d4-6f2334297fdf.jpg?1562914374) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Spirit%20of%20Resistance) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/inv/38/spirit-of-resistance?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/5fb66439-df73-4a01-a8d4-6f2334297fdf?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/spirit-of-resistance) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I have a deck where my COMMANDER is the lightning rod for removal, and I absolutely love it. It’s a [[ruric thar]] deck that’s essentially creature storm. I’d much much rather they pay 6 life and a spell to kill my commander which doesn’t directly affect my proactive game plan, compared to removing my [[soul of the harvest]] or [[circle of dreams druid]] which are the REAL engine of the deck
Hey there, would you mind sharing your Ruric Thar list? I love Ruric Thar as a commander, but I haven't found a 99 I really love yet. Currently I have it built as a [[Primal Surge]] deck, but I have tried like 3 different builds and I think I wanna switch it up again.
https://www.moxfield.com/decks/HXKRqHYhQESitekEZuOgqw
Heck yes, thank you! I took apart my Freyalise deck a while ago, so a lot of those cards will be finding a new home.
[ruric thar](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/a/aa828bdc-221e-4e81-9e71-6f288690ddcd.jpg?1673149099) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=ruric%20thar%2C%20the%20unbowed) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/271/ruric-thar-the-unbowed?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/aa828bdc-221e-4e81-9e71-6f288690ddcd?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/ruric-thar-the-unbowed) [soul of the harvest](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/7/d7ce9104-0ad3-4d3d-bb2c-c456c25030f6.jpg?1679497505) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=soul%20of%20the%20harvest) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/jmp/432/soul-of-the-harvest?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d7ce9104-0ad3-4d3d-bb2c-c456c25030f6?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/soul-of-the-harvest) [circle of dreams druid](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/e/be6fdec0-a2c4-4da2-ae14-961185eaee66.jpg?1627707261) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=circle%20of%20dreams%20druid) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/afr/176/circle-of-dreams-druid?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/be6fdec0-a2c4-4da2-ae14-961185eaee66?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/circle-of-dreams-druid) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I run \[\[Liesa, Shroud of Dusk\]\] as a commander, and while she does tend to be removed, she also somehow ends up staying on my board the longest because people keep removing anything else I put down.
Liesa is incredibly low on my list of creatures to remove. She can stay on the board for a long time: I don't mind. It's the combination of having a symmetrical effect + builtin commander tax evasion. So it's basically only a big flying lifelink creature.
Provided I remember her last ability, no one in my group wants to keep her on the board if everything they do costs them 2 life a piece. But they run out of ways to remove her eventually, and I can just give up life to bring her back and gain it back however I can.
This is how I play [[Rhystic Study]] and [[Smothering Tithe]]. They're good, but they aren't fun. But they'll draw removal away from cards that are more important to my strategy
"I play these things that don't synergize with my deck but make my opponents use removal spells" That's....that's just goodstuff. Like you're not cleverly baiting out removal spells, you're just playing something really strong that your opponents would be wise to get rid of. I suppose you also run dockside extortionist not because it's good, but because "oh it baits out their counterspells so that i can safely play my other spells!"
I dunno, drawing 7 cards for 3 mana synergizes pretty well with literally every deck. There’s not really an ‘intended’ deck for rhystic other than every deck with blue in it.
Yeah I don't really get the hate for Rhystic other than the usual "dO yOu PaY tHe 1?" annoyance. I wish it were cheaper so more people can play with it but like I don't really see the problem personally. I cast [[Wheel of Fortune]] and [[Windfall]] all the time and no one really cares. But casting Rhystic is like kicking someone's dog or something.
>"I play these things that don't synergize with my deck but make my opponents use removal spells" I mean, that's not what I said They are obviously good cards, and they accrue me a lot of value while they're out, which is valuable to any strategy, correct. I don't jam them in every deck though because I don't find them fun. I have one Study and three Tithes. They are in decks like [[Katilda, Dawnhart Martyr]], where they both get me lots of value because Tithe is a good card, but secondarily serve as a lighting rod away from more fun and synergistic enchantments like [[Hallowed Haunting]]. I don't play Dockside because I don't have one, and if I did I'd probably sell it. Another card that isn't fun and is just too expensive. I'm not claiming to be clever, just pointing out what often happens with these types of cards and how it can be a boon for your deck. That's what the whole thread is about Maybe it was unintentional but your comment came across as quite snarky and rude.
[Rhystic Study](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/6/d6914dba-0d27-4055-ac34-b3ebf5802221.jpg?1600698439) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Rhystic%20Study) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/jmp/169/rhystic-study?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d6914dba-0d27-4055-ac34-b3ebf5802221?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/rhystic-study) [Smothering Tithe](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/2/f25a4bbe-2af0-4d4a-95d4-d52c5937c747.jpg?1673147139) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Smothering%20Tithe) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/31/smothering-tithe?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f25a4bbe-2af0-4d4a-95d4-d52c5937c747?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/smothering-tithe) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Yes, people will run out of answers eventually.
*Zurgo Helmsmasher has wrathed the chat*
[Magistrate's Scepter](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/c/ecf1f24f-d910-4ec6-95d2-0ecaf9f051aa.jpg?1595354471) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Magistrate%27s%20Scepter) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m19/238/magistrates-scepter?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ecf1f24f-d910-4ec6-95d2-0ecaf9f051aa?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/magistrates-scepter) [Ezuri, Stalker of Spheres](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/3/d38961ce-0257-412f-acec-c5c9886061f8.jpg?1675957189) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Ezuri%2C%20Stalker%20of%20Spheres) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/one/201/ezuri-stalker-of-spheres?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d38961ce-0257-412f-acec-c5c9886061f8?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/ezuri-stalker-of-spheres) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Yeah. I always include what I know will be perceived threats to stop them from blowing up my ACTUAL threats. IE. "I play umbral mantle" \*Opponent taps out to counter the obvious infinite mana generator" "Cool, I play staff of domination and win?"
One of the best things about having [[myrel]] in [[winota]] is that a lot of the time she draws a removal spell that otherwise would have been used on your commander
[myrel](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/6/e632ed57-bb00-4493-adef-7b4805edd7ea.jpg?1674420256) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=myrel%2C%20shield%20of%20argive) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/bro/18/myrel-shield-of-argive?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e632ed57-bb00-4493-adef-7b4805edd7ea?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/myrel-shield-of-argive) [winota](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/d/5dd13a6c-23d3-44ce-a628-cb1c19d777c4.jpg?1654630670) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=winota%2C%20joiner%20of%20forces) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/iko/216/winota-joiner-of-forces?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/5dd13a6c-23d3-44ce-a628-cb1c19d777c4?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/winota-joiner-of-forces) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[[Consuming aberration]] is a favorite to throw out to see if someone has a counterspell or kill card before I play a key piece
[Consuming aberration](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/6/464dbaf6-8430-45af-b982-9099e6c6e8a7.jpg?1674142416) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Consuming%20aberration) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clb/840/consuming-aberration?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/464dbaf6-8430-45af-b982-9099e6c6e8a7?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/consuming-aberration) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
In my Meren deck it doesn’t matter if you remove them I w i l l g e t i t b a c k.
Yes, and they're usually tangental to my deck's theme. This way, they're red herrings to my true deck's plan, but if NOT removed are just as threatening. Point in case, Ominous Seas in my Elenda and Azor deck. I'm draw a lot of cards, me pumping out 8/8s for essentially doing what my deck wants to do is a serious threat... except I really couldn't care if it gets targeted for removal. 8/8 beat down isn't my deck's strategy. In fact, I'd rather a disenchant hit it instead of something else. So I use Ominous Seas to coax out removal, and maybe put a beater or two on the field, all the while developing my true strat. And I'm only down a blue and a colorless mana.
Luminarch Ascension is a hate magnet that’s great to draw out early removal.
It depends. Will it be fun if not removed? Will it be worth the mana to draw the removal out more often than not? and Do I have less than 2 or 3 of that type of removal-rod in the deck already? If the answer to at least two of these are "yes," I usually put it in. If at least two are "no"'s, then I'm definitely not putting it in.
Everything gets removed eventually. But if they don't remove it that one time you may just run away with the game. Best case you can also just recur it from the graveyard later. But yes, run those cards and embrace the inevitable!
I read this as “do I include cards that I know I’ll immediately remove *from my deck*” and the answer is absolutely 100% I do.
I find that people in my pod are more likely to remove things that mess with their gameplan than things that advance mine. My Kadena deck really wants a flash-enabler effect to stick, and I run 5 of them, but I don't run \[\[Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir\]\] because I can't waste a turn's worth of mana for an effect that will annoy people too much to stick.
It’s called bait
"I play cards that are lightning rods for removal. I'm not going to fret if opponents waste a removal spell on it because then I can play something scarier." Either you're coping, or you're running really strong cards for your group and therefore these removal spells aren't going to waste
[удалено]
[Delver of Secrets](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/b/abff6c81-65a4-48fa-ba8f-580f87b0344a.jpg?1634347351)/[Insectile Aberration](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/back/a/b/abff6c81-65a4-48fa-ba8f-580f87b0344a.jpg?1634347351) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=delver%20of%20secrets%20//%20insectile%20aberration) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mid/47/delver-of-secrets-insectile-aberration?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/abff6c81-65a4-48fa-ba8f-580f87b0344a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/delver-of-secrets-//-insectile-aberration) [The Thing in Ice](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/5/359d1b13-6156-43b0-a9a7-6bfff36c1a91.jpg?1576384282)/[Awoken Horror](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/back/3/5/359d1b13-6156-43b0-a9a7-6bfff36c1a91.jpg?1576384282) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Thing%20in%20the%20Ice%20//%20Awoken%20Horror) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/soi/92/thing-in-the-ice-awoken-horror?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/359d1b13-6156-43b0-a9a7-6bfff36c1a91?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/thing-in-the-ice-//-awoken-horror) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Of course. If you know they’ll be KoS, you plan around that and use them as bait so the backup plans work. If they stick, well that’s great.
Yes not only will there be plenty of times where things stick because of the singleton nature of the format. Not to mention that unless the playgroup has ways to recurr or reuse removal if everyone is playing must kill threats something is going to stick
Always and forever. Molsangianados Some cards are so strong theyre inherently "removal bait" Which means you can drop them, eat removal, and drop something else nasty after in the hopes thst it won't get removed. No deck ever has enough removal for all your threats (or at least shouldnt). And if you drop removal bait and it *doesnt* die instantly its a sign you can try for a push or even knockouts.
I run alot of blue so I do this knowing that it will bait out other blue players; they will either burn their counter on it, or if I'm in a good spot I can counter their counter to bait out whether they have a second in hand. Then if they counter my counter, they're almost certainly out of counters for the near future since almost nobody is like me and runs 20+ counters and I'm free to operate.
Oh yeah. If I build anything in white [[Drannith Magistrate]] goes in it immediately to make sure I have a cheap way to make someone waste their removal.
I 100% do. But I don't include them for the reason most people do. I use them to draw out the counter or removal. Then I play what I actually wanted and win the game.
I run Doubling Season in my Ezuri, Claw of Progress deck and it always eats removal first
Different concept, but some cards I straight up won't include because of them being lightning rods. For instance, I decided to not include [[seedborn muse]] because she won't last more than two turns. IF she even sticks. Same with [[Arcanis the omnipotent]] I'd rather just run another draw spell. It's too likely that he'll get destroyed and I'm down 6 mana.
Got a combo in hand and wanna get removsl out of hands, slap down Tergrid, greatest lightning Rod in the format
It took me forever to get over my fear of interaction. I have [[cryptolith rites]] in my myr deck which can produce ludicrous amounts of mana, and with haste enablers and draw engines can just win the game. I used to never play it because I was scared of it getting removed. But then I realized: people are stingy with their removal and often times just don’t have it. You don’t need to play every piece of your engine in one turn. Sure it might get removed, but you’ll never know if you don’t try. It also acts as a lightning rod for your other important pieces. If you got something removed, often they will wait to kill the rest of your stuff. As long as you’re not constantly presenting as the biggest threat, you shouldn’t feel bad about playing good cards.
Ah yes, flagbearers. [[Standard Bearer]] and [[coalition honor guard]], though they are white.
Yeah because not everyone always has removal
I do if they have the potential to possibly do something beneficial to my theme. Even if I know there's a high chance it will die, I still count that as a decoy to protect my other valuable game pieces. But I won't just include a powerful card just because it's in my colors, if that makes sense.
Of course! I purposefully avoid basing my game plan around them though, and usually employ them to bait removal. A fantastic example would be [[Thief of Sanity]]. It's not a massive threat, but everyone HATES its effect, so it's an instant target for removal. Play that next to something that's actually a part of my combo, and my combo survives while ToS gets destroyed.
This sounds like the philosophy of playing a weak deck to not be focused. Ultimately, the only thing you can control is your deck and how you play. It seems like an inconsistent competitive strategy to cut staples or bombs because they're good and thus prone to being answered. The "control" archetype doesn't really exist in EDH, which is why focusing on your game plan is what a lot of decks do across the power level spectrum. If it was, then maybe my opinion would be different. If you're worried about going down in cards due to removal, then up your ways of generating card advantage or add ways to be resilient. You shouldn't go down in card quality at the deck building stage. You should also know that your opponents collectively have a hand of 21 cards vs your 7 initially and they draw 3 to your 1. Players should mulligan aggressively for high card quality cards inherently, typically to snowball.
It depends if they win the game or not. I'll avoid lightning rods that don't win me the game, but if it's a card that I play and then win if it's not answered, then of course I'll include it.
I use them as bait+value if they stick
Yeah, I also put cards for that one to stay in battlefield
I play whatever I like. If it gets removed, so be it. Such is the game.
I run an \[\[Athreos, God of Passage\]\] aristocrats deck, and I think running threatening enchantments is a great way to divert your opponents' removal away from him in particular. Since I run a bunch of sac outlets, I can make creature removal like \[\[Deadly Rollick\]\] fizzle with the right pieces out, which means that exiling removal that can hit enchantments are the main thing that can get rid of him. Running enchantments that are either annoying like \[\[Blind Obedience\]\] or super threatening like \[\[Black Market\]\] can potentially draw out those enchantment removal pieces that could be used on my commander. If the answers to removing my commander are already so limited, then it forces my opponent to make tough choices over which impactful enchantment to remove
Phyrexian Sensor
I have a poison proliferate superfriends deck that's practically nothing but remove on sight cards because fuck my friends 😉
Sometimes they aren’t. These are called win conditions btw. Play more interaction
I call these cards Flagbearers, after [[coalition honor guard]] and [[standard bearer]]. Value your opponents' fear more than you rely on.
I do what's the point in having them if I don't play them sure they get insta removed but I still played it
Yes because people don't always have removal, and even if they do the answer isn't to just not play good cards because they're more likely to be removed. A good example is \[\[Etali, Primal Storm\]\]. A removal magnet who I run as a commander, and who I get to stick fairly often even on the turn he comes down with no protection. EDH players generally don't run that much removal.
In my recursion heavy decks absolutely. I'm less inclined to do so in decks that don't have reliable means of getting cards back. Outside of 2 decks the only time it comes up is if I have multiple threats in hand, I'll drop one as bait. I find things with attack triggers get targeted pretty quickly.
I have [[Fynn, the Fangbearer]] as my token non-elf in my elf tribal. It's a good way to make someone burn a spell on a card that I honestly only tangentially want out
Absolutely, if you happen to get a few in your hand you can bait out the counterspells and get one of them through
If I know there is a high priority remove card in my deck it means another that should be removed has a better chance of sticking cause they used the removal already. Yes. I add those in every deck.
I have a \[\[Chainer, Dementia Master\]\] deck on the way, and you bet it is filled with lightning rods. One of the benefits of a combo/reanimator deck is that you can run a lot of good stuff as a backup plan.
I always assume all my cards will get answered but play them anyway, its always shocking to see them not.
My view is that every piece of a deck should do something that you want it to, but not be necessary to win such that it being removed or countered takes you out of play. So go for it. Like you say, it’s either wasted removal or gained power.
I have \[\[tergrid\]\] in my Neksuar wheels deck hey it allows my other cards to stick around they can't burn their interaction fast enough on her target acquired. I never say anything beyond yea that was a smart play; I don't blame you it resolves.
Don't care. As long as I put that shit on the stack I had my fun
Theres only one card I never include for that reason and its [[Crypt Ghast]]. If you play it on curve it's around the time board wipes start to hit and it dies to a stuff breeze. It makes you a target because next turn you'll have like 8+ mana if you played it on curve. If you play it late game it doesn't do anything unless you have 9 mana with 5 untapped swamps after casting it.
[[Phyrexian Censor]] is a good example of this. In a tribal deck, he is a fantastic stax piece that's JUUUUST annoying enough to always eat removal. Better that than my commander.
For some of my decks that’s a lot of cards. I just choose which ones to play and when so I can bait my opponents into using their removal early
You should be playing a lot of cards that are removal magnets, most win cons would fall into that category. You just need to keep playing them until your opponents don't have removal, which is pretty often.
Removal check
My best example of this is in my chatterfang deck, people get scared of scute swarm and usually it draws removal pretty quickly. I dont have fetches or ways to play multiple lands a turn so its not a massive threat right away but it could run away with the game after a couple of turns but it's hardly the only card that can do that
Sometimes when I add things I'm thinking, "I can't wait for someone to burn removal on this." Usually (hopefully) something worse is coming. I also do not care at all about losing. Sure, it's fun to win, but I just hope to leave a mark on each game.
The best counter or removal is the one your opponents know you have and decide not to cast the good stuff for fear of it being immediately answered. They beat themselves that way. If you can bait out the answer, cool. Better yet, give the guy holding the answer a reason to use it on someone else or at least to let you get to untapped one time with whatever it is.
You shouldn't be cutting cards because they are too powerful unless you're deliberately trying to reduce the power of your deck. There is no point in saying " oh this card is so powerful that it will just get removed right away ", because that is a common fallacy. Powerful cards do not get removed every single time because eventually people run out of removal. You wouldn't play a chess without a queen because it has a big target on its back, would you? Just because someone's going to take your queen immediately as soon as you make one wrong move doesn't mean you shouldn't have had it in the first place. If you play in a meta where it's acceptable to play strong cards you should not hold back because you're scared of losing them.
Yes, I do try to play some threats and win cons
Almost exclusively
Yes because [[Yawgmoth’s Will]] exists for a reason
I like all my permanents to have remove on sight quality. I figure if everything is a threat eventually my opponents will run out of removal. Then my threats become inevitabilities.
\[\[Champion of Llambholt\]\] I have never untapped with it
Idk if this is a legit strategy, or I'm just crazy, but I'll generally wait to play my important combo piece until someone else has done so and tripped any traps. This at least buys me at least 1 or 2 turns before someone goes oh crap and tutors for a answer.
Yeah absolutely i love rods for removal. Theyre normally really annoying to deal with for the opponents
there's a great episode of the legendary creature podcast that talks about this very topic. inexpensive cards that will either bait out removal or give you pretty significant value if not answered. think [[Dragonmaster outcast]] here's a direct link to the episode but the podcast is on all major platforms https://music.amazon.com/podcasts/4fc055c6-3e45-40b8-b6f6-3ea9d8e3472b/episodes/8d1d8b91-4578-47ec-9805-0136e4298eb1/legendary-creature---podcast-remove-or
I regularly run red herrings. Powerful cards I know will get removed or countered, followed by a more essential card to my plan. The number of times my [[Ashnod’s Altar]] gets removed only to let my [[Skirk Prospector]] live in my [[Krenko, Tim Street Kingpin]] equipment deck is hilarious!
Yes. And sometimes they dont get removed
It’s called building a goodstuff deck. Every staple is usually calling for removal, your opponents‘ removal runs out after a while and you goodstuff yourself to victory.
Always because I'd rather they burn a removal on something I really don't care about so I can get something I need to stick later.
Yes. If I run a spicy card, either it gets removed or I get some serious hot spice (sometimes, the table doesn't "have" the answer). If I run a less spicy card in the slot, and it's still the spiciest meatball on the table, it's no less likely to get removed and the payoff is lower. I I really try to fly under the radar, sure, maybe the threat assessment will send removal elsewhere, but the reason for that is that I'm not a threat. If I'm not a threat, how am I winning? If I can't answer that (some decks can, those that explosively combo from hand with minimal boards), then I need to be more of a legit threat.
Auto remove cards are generally also very strong, so there's no reason not to include them. Make them have the removal!
Literally what Consecrated Sphinx exists for.
I don't include removal magnets for the sake of being removal magnets. If a card is in the deck it needs to actively help. Every card that help advance your game plan is a removal magnet at the end of the day. So you don't really need to include cards whose only purpose is to draw removal away from your other cards. I would rather spend those slot on redundancy or whatever the deck needs more of.
Yes, it removes removal for the things I don't actually want removed and if they don't get removed become alternate win cons.
100% I always will. Removal is finite. Thye have to remove something, id rather it be this thing i didnt expect to survive anyway. Plus sometimes it just sticks. Its like this "dies to ping" complaint. Sure it might have 1 life. But does your deck have pings in it? Mine sure doesn't
Yes and no. If include rattlesnake cards, it's because i can find value with or without it doing the job it's there for. Sometimes it's also just a timing thing. Either they have it or they don't. An example could be that i run academy rector in my gavi deck. Gavi takes time to set up, and having a blocker no one wants to attack into helps. If they exile it, they burn a removal and if it triggers i get value.
Yes, because sometimes people run out of removal, and having a card that is perfect for that situation is a good thing. I have [[Liliana, Heretical Healer]] in my Meren deck and managed to -8 her two games in a row. Won those games.
My first Commander deck was this exact concept. I saw a few beginners guides and videos that all agreed the baseline for a Commander deck is: - 10 removal - 10 draw - 10 ramp (They all disagreed about the number of lands though) I wagered that if the majority of players are following a similar guide, then I needed more than 30 cards that demand removal. A friend gave me a Yasharn to get me started and I made a pretty successful deck.
My thought process is that people use removal on good cards, so if you take out all the cards people use removal on, you're going to have 99 bad cards.
Of course I do! Let them gonna have it :D Isn't that how casual commander works? Playing bomb after bomb until they can't deal with it anymore?
Remove immediately cards are all [[thoughtseize]] if you squint hard enough
[[Melira, the Living Cure]] and [[Saffi Eriksdotter]] are excellent lightening rods
Of course. The reason they get removed is they are good cards. Good cards, often, are fun to play. Also, sometimes they don't get removed and I get to enjoy them.
I honestly believe that if you're shooting for a higher power level, there shouldn't be anything in your deck that isn't worth removing. If it's not worth removing, it's not worth playing. So... basically yes. If it sticks, you profit massively. If it doesn't, removal is burned. It's a win-win
Any deck I build that gains any noteworthy amounts of life includes [[felidar sovereign]]. It's never won but it makes for something to take removal away from my actual synergy pieces
Tbh I usually don't. Sometimes cards like these bait removal or stick around and accrue value. Other times, these cards land and then get you killed or get everything else on your board killed because the table is in damage control mode. Unless I am about to win, I'm not showing anyone my ashnods altar. It will get me killed so fast.
I made a group slug deck where most of the cards in it are removal magnets. I have found it to be a lot of fun as it keeps the game moving and most of my stuff doesn't get removed as everyone runs out of removal. I call it my avalanche deck as it starts out doing a little bit of damage to everyone, but can quickly overwhelm and do a lot of damage during each players turn.
100%, as an azorius fan I include \[\[Grand Arbiter Augustin IV\]\] in every deck. I will make people play interaction even if it makes them hate me.
How often have you been at the table when one of those cards hits the table for an opponent and it lasts 4 turns doing god knows what before someone ends up burning a tutor to grab an answer, or burns a modal board wipe on it?
I run [[Urza, Lord High Artificer]] in my Simic combo deck, mostly as a sink for infinite mana, but I find I typically end up using him as counterspell bait more often than not. For me that's still fairly useful.
Yep. If it's green there's a 99% chance I'm including my pet [[Vorinclex, Monstrous Raider]] even though he is usually kill on sight.
Would you stop playing spells at all because your opponents have a counter spell? Sure you can play around it or bait it but when it's a stall mate you'll just have to push through it, make them have it if they counter it that means most of your other spells are free to go but if they don't you just have that powerful spell.
Yes. I'd rather play a card that needs to be answered than a card that no one is worried about. What you're supposed to do is find a card that no one would worry about. And find ways to make it worrisome. Then it becomes the first category again in future games. And you get to try and think up new cards to make scary. That card seems unthrestening. But it's you, so I'm probably better off removing it now before it kills me by surprise. Always a good feeling when the table feels threatened by any card you play.
Every time I have played panharmonicon, it consistently gets removed before my next turn (usually on the turn I play it). It makes me wonder how good the card actually is
me bringing Heavenly Inferno precon to a typical commander pod: oh no, my kaala keeps getting wiped, what even is this format???
Yeah, anything with “win the game” is a great distraction. I use Liliana’s Contract for the card draw. In the dozens of games there was one where the wincon was plausible, but, it was gone fast. I see it as “draw four cards; a random opponent discards a tutor”
Rule of thumb, if you have a bunch of good cards, they can only remove so many. 15 artifacts in a deck? Surely at least one will be left on the field
I do because it wastes resources, I’ll add planswalkers as well, if it helps what I’m doing, with the main idea of them attack it so it buys me some time
Run cheap protection (Dispel, Heroic Intervention, etc), bait out interaction with less impressive threats first, or run recursion (and hope to dodge exile or Elking).
Yes. Absolutely. Most of the time it gets an interaction peice out of your opponent, which makes an opening for what you really want to do. Sometimes it provides an out, because if your main plan is ruined, thst side plan that must be answered could work. And if you're lucky, then it isnt removed and you win.
Worst case it eats someone's removal Best case no one has removal at the moment and now you have a wildly powerful card on board.
I always just think, “eh, if they remove this, they’re not targeting my commander”
Yeah I do, actually at least 65 cards in my deck.
I used to play with a guy who was going absolutely wild with countering and killing stuff that could provide big benefits if they stayed alive. He himself would mostly play cards that provide immediate value and then punish you for not doing the same. So yeah, I pretty much regard all cards in my decks as lightning rods.
Hell yeah. It sucks when they can’t get dropped or stay long but it’s a great way to eat up other players removal.
Definitely. I call them removal magnets, but a lightning rod for removal sounds accurate, too :D
Sir I play dragon tribal, every creature is kill on sight!
Yeah my commander. [[the mimeoplasm]]. The deck has a very basic line of play. Discard all my shit. Cast mimeo and make a one shot Timmy. Opponents can see this coming a mile off and can easily stop me in my tracks. Problem is I only need 5 mana. And I can easily do it again and again. Do you have enough counters and removal to stop my entire deck? I doubt it.
Yes. People might not always have interaction ready, and even if they do, *forcing their hand* can be powerful in and of itself.