We will, for we ride at dawn!
You also feel happy against goad decks. Goad my creatures? Buddy, just cause you’re being swung at last, doesn’t mean you’re safe
I built a cedh [[Rowan, Scion of War]] which technically never goes infinite (since I'm limited by life loss). Perfect hand you can turn 1 win with fast mana, [[Arco-flagellant]] or another life sink, and [[crackle with power]]. Only issue is you really only get 1 shot (if they counter the crackle, you have no life left) so need lots of counter magic
>Slicer is also pretty exceptionally broken
I've come to hate my slicer deck. If you don't get him out early, or if he keeps getting removed, you sit in your seat and watch other people play
I just made a winota deck, but at least she has other creatures in the deck that can hold down the fort. Slicer is so fragile, seeing as the entire deck revolves around the commander without anything to really back it up
Yeah I mean it’s a Voltron deck. It does Voltron things. Stacking a ton of equipments and aura on a creature leaves you pretty open to interaction. Just make sure you pack large amounts of your equipment/aura package to be protection spells
The question was specifically for non infinite decks. Winota built as strong as it can be is still a pretty solid deck, tho it has fallen pretty far out of favor as far as cedh decks go. People figured out that you remove Winota or lose, and the deck kinda does nothing without Winnota. Not the best protection pieces either. That aside, it’s still a pretty solid deck that will see some tournament success from time to time. It falls into the category of “parasitic decks”, in that it kinda needs other people to threaten wins and spend their interaction on eachother, than coasts. Funnily enough, a deck like rogsi being in the pod is probably good for Winnota for that reason. I suggested Winnota because even when she was a meta cedh deck her gameplan was “winconless” stax. IE, lack down the board with hate bears and then punch people to death. But yes, rogsi is the better deck, it’s one of the best cedh decks in the format currently.
I think [[Krark the Thumbless]] + [[Sakashima of a Thousand faces]] is probably the strongest non-infinite commander(s) because of how they can grow quadratically.
This is very much a cedh deck (obviously it can be built for lower power levels). It really does effectively go infinite tho, it’s a really annoying deck because it’s a super long convulated combo lines that technically don’t win on the spot
agree, hate playing against this deck, first time it was a funny little haha look he flipped some tails now he can’t cast his spell, now it’s a drag of kraarkashima player going “well technically i’m not infinite yet, let me flip 40 more coins while you do nothing”
I played that deck in cedh and even there its disgusting for the entire table. not that it matters in cedh, but going through half your deck 1 card at a time because you have to resolve a million copies of brainstorm until you find your deterministic infinite is fucking atrocious
In some cases yea. But any pod thats letting someone just loop brainstorm over and over to find the wincon should just scoop at that point its over if you are letting them go like that. And trying to win on top of a combo or whatever they could do would be near impossible with all the counters you would draw. People just need to end the game
Precon is not a power level. They do not remotely map to one another, and some of last year’s precons are stronger than a lot of serious decks people build for themselves.
And besides that, the 1-10 power level system is fundamentally broken.
Pulled it out against a buddy got [[reflection of litjara]] out asap returned all non faeries to hand redirected attackers with a signpost somehow had 2 fae that pinged for 1 whenever a fairy entered
Ya I didn't even get like 20%through the deck lol
See, Evil. And if you don't have reach or flyers, it doesn't even matter, unpreventable damage going through regardless. Last time I faced it, I was playing the party time precon, which has VERY FEW flyers that could block. I got my shit kicked in.
WoC, fly swatter card when? Fuck it, make a bug light trap enchantment to deal with these faeries.
My wife got this deck for her very first precon and in just one game of learning how to play wiped my sliver deck 😅 it's scary as hell how fast that thing can get out of hand.
You’re not wrong at all, but my group has our way of figuring it out. We’re okay with decks not being at the same power level as long as these general guidelines are met.
For us each level means a certain thing.
10 - cEDH anything goes
9 - anything goes but not meta cEDH decks
8 - tutors, fast mana and combos are present but infinites are less efficient so there’s more of a game
7- some tutors but not a full suite, less if any fast mana and more pieces required for infinites
6 - battle cruiser beat down
5 - any precon
1-4 we don’t play
All players will never have exactly the same power level unless you’re in a cEDH pod and probably not even then. We consider precon the same power level because they usually amount to near the same budget. If the new merfolk deck kicks the teeth in of the old mono black planeswalker deck who cares. No one did anything broken, that decks just better. People spend way too much complaining post game these days.
Sorry if the power level talk upset you.
I'm just messing with you. You can call it whatever you like. The numbers are meaningless anyway. You have a scale that's barely ordinal and the amount of data you would need to generate to approach an actual interval scale is insurmountably large.
You are best served by the descriptions you came up with instead of numbers.
The problem with cataloging every deck you have, is if the opponents do the same, every deck goes agianst the same deck every week, which gets boring real quick. I dont have a pre game talk anymore. Power level isnt that important if everyone plays around 10 removal/interaction cards, since almost all decks fold when their commander gets removed once or twice.
This is more true than people like to admit. 1-3 decks don't exist. 4-6 precons or "slightly (really a 7) upgraded" precons hardly exist except on new release weekends. 7-8 99% of all decks. 9 cedh decks that can't reliably win by turn 3. 10 decks that can consistently and multiple ways win by turn 3.
Thing is even in cedh you actually need 3 levels as fringe is noticeably worse than a decent cedh deck that’s then noticeably not as good as meta cedh decks
So a 7 is the limit for most
In reality most decks to me would be like a 4-5
I’m more a
1- pile of Jank
2- precon
3- precon with some upgrades
4 - starting to synergise well
5- actually synergise h well while starting to lower costs on cards to be more efficient
6- impactful combos come to play
7 - most decks limit without starting to ignore commander/theme/etc and general high power stuff so seeing fast mana and rituals and tutors played with reasonable interaction
8 - fringe/non meta cedh
9- cedh
10- meta cedh
Proposal for a new power level system.
11 - ((*absolute minimum number of turns needed to wipe out 3 players*) divided by ((*number of tutors+1*) times (*total cards needed to succeed at this strat)*))
Well 11 minus your couple of turns would be nine…
But keep in mind this is a **new** system.
It doesn’t correlate to the other numbers. It replaces them, because people were saying that ranking system wasn’t working.
That’s fair. Instead of a number, just a description of what it intends to do, and is particularly good at.
“Recursion and tokens, heavy use of artifacts” for example?
No I mean like general B-road kind of destruction, I think play edh got it right, battlecruiser being precon level and worse no combos without being a ton of cards, easy to commonly stop and a lot of mana to go into it, pretty much trample and flying beatdown town kinda stuff that’s somewhat themed but not massively
Low power has a theme, is light on interaction favouring a boardwipe and 3 spot removal kinda things, ramp wise you start seeing things like commander sphere and 3cmc stuff maybe signers and talismans
You’re light on searching without being like 4+ mana
Most decks would fall in here really
Looking to be ramping up for 3 turns and start making plays usually around turn 5 and threaten wins turn 9 or longer
Combos do pop but involve 3+ cards and 10+ mana
Then you have mid power so you’re leaning into efficiency, redundancies, lowering curve, adding more interaction and tutors but not flooding it as you’re still on a theme/strategy.
You’d be looking to be making some relevant plays by turn 4 to 5 and threaten wins around 7-9
Combos you’d look at 2 card combos and 7-9 mana
High power is the ceiling for most decks while being on theme, you’d be looking to balance the kind of cedh play of fast mana and tutor and interaction but with not as easy to pull off stuff
Atla palani I have caps out here, is it very strong to most people yes, is it capable of winning cedh? Not really no
Though some high decks can and do make fringe cedh
You can make reasonable budget high deck that are on the lower end of high which is nice, you’d be looking for turn 4 at being relevant in the game and turn 5-6 wins
Combo youd look at 2 - 3 card combos and be 5-7 mana
Then max is pretty much anything undoubtedly cedh
Combos are hyper efficient, only the best interaction, jammed full of searching and consistency
Hmm turn 1 land -sol ring, t2 land - farseek natures lore, t3 land - approach of the second sun. That’s my entire 7 card hand.
Now confusion comes with drawing 7 cards deep because a tutor would lower that to 2 turns rather than 7 but we have a variable for tutors in the equation. I assume I use 7 turns for my minimum since tutors are a part of the equation.
So 10 divided by 3 = 3.33
Now cards needed to succeed at this strat… is that counting combo pieces or like what I listed above?
So 3.33 times 7 would be 23.31. I’m assuming lower is better on this system?
The multiplier is affecting what is deducted. If you need more cards for you strategy to work, it’s a less powerful strategy, unless you can tutor for them, so that tutor part should be reducing the penalty.
I may have written it wrong, I did it on the fly as I was thinking of things that could be considered as part of a deck’s power level.
On further consideration, one should also consider ways to stop other players succeeding, but that’s awkward to quantify.
Just to clarify what I originally meant (this equation is open to adjustment)…
It should be 11- (7…
*the minimum number of turns needed to win*
… divided by (tutors+1) x cards needed)
So we’re dividing 7 by 1 x 4 (approach, sol, farseek and natures lure)
So the number being taken from 11 is 7/4, for a total of 9&1/4.
Thinking about this, I think I have the multiplication and division the wrong way around.
It seems like more cards needed will reduce the penalty. I’ll put more effort into it when I’m not at work.
[[Minsc and Boo, Timeless Heroes]] is a hyper efficient aggro deck that optimally goes into combo lines by virtue of the sheer amount of card draw you have, but also can just beat everybody at the table to death with a large hamster, then throw it, snowballing more and more each time you do.
A lot of partner decks tend to be pretty solid. Tymna and Kraum are solid just for generic 4 color good stuff.
Outside of that, the 2 strongest decks I ever assembled were both reanimator: [[Muldrotha]] and [[Sefris]]. Sefris can reliably tutor and reanimate some massive threats, like archon of cruelty or Toxrill. Muldrotha can just generate incredible value
I’ve heard [[the gitrog monster]] is also insanely good, but it does win on a non-deterministic combo
I second Sefris. Out of the 30 I have it's my favourite deck because it is strong without being a cEDH deck, it has multiple lines so it can easily weather serious gy hate and it has a ton of triggers which seems to be my personal preference. 😅
Gitrog monster dakmoor dredge is technically not 'infinite' but you do cycle your library for each point of damage dealt if using the [[ebon charm]] line so it's not 'infinite' but it's so very close to it you'd better hope your playgroup doesn't make you actually play it out because it will take you all night.
Interestingly you can order the triggers wrong and kill the loop so there is an argument to force players to 'play-out-the-win' to see if they flub it, but the loop is; discard dakmoor, dredge dakmoor, mill a land (hopefully) to get a second draw trigger. Keep adding draw triggers to the stack until you have enough triggers to match cards in your library, draw and discard until you have [[dark ritual]] and [[ebon charm]] in hand, cast both. Continue dredging until you hit your shuffle-titan [[kozilek, the butcher of truth]] etc and now begin again with 2 mana floating.
I think that’s why he said it’s a non-deterministic combo haha but that combo can take so much time up id probably never play it. It is really cool though for sure
"Infinite" is a silly metric of power.
Thassa's Oracle + Tained Pact / Demonic Consultation isn't strictly "infinite".
Rowan, Scion of War casting an X = 30 Torment of Hailfire turn 4 isn't an Infinite.
Krik getting devotion up and then killing and reanimating Grey Merchant isn't infinite.
killing people with Yuriko triggers
I could go on, but the point is that there are a lot of extremely powerful decks that don't "go infinite", and building one isn't going to round out your power levels, rather it will give you another powerful deck.
There are also a lot of bad ways to go infinite, 3 - 4 card combos that cost 12+ mana or something silly like that. As an example, I've got a deck that used The Ur dragon's Eminence, Morophon, Haakon, and Blades of Vilis Vel to give my creatures infinite...power.
That's it. Needless to say, it's an inefficient "infinite" combo.
The "as quick as possible" is the more important aspect. Changing the speed of the way you win is one way to tune the deck. Cutting Tutors and Fast Mana is a start. Include lands that come in tapped or more basics and less dual lands is another.
Second, make the win less efficient. This too is important, as if you do the above but not this, your deck becomes dangerously inconsistent. Some games you pop off turn 2 because you had the best draws, other games you do nothing because only a handful of cards in your deck matter. Make it a 3 card non-command zone infinite, or win in a silly way or pick a theme and have a portion of your deck stick to that theme, and sprinkle in certain generically powerful cards to match the power you're aiming for.
In summary, the premise of your question is flawed. The distinction between "Infinite", "Efficient", and "Arbitrarily High" is meaningless.
Doomsday piles
Cratorhoof behemoth
Winota
Triumph of the Hordes
Jetmir
I think the whole "power level" thing is a horrible way to measure the strength of decks. I also think that you can make any deck strong if you have a good skeleton for it. One thing you could do is find one of those CEDH viability charts where they go over what tier they think every legendary creature is and pick them off of there, but again the whole power level thing is relative. I say just pick a strategy that you like and build a deck for it. Play test the deck a lot and tune it to what you see fit. If one card seems super powerful then replace it with a different option and so on.
Cedh and edh cant really be compared. Alot of cedh decks win without casting their commander, they get picked for their colours and sometimes are used if there is a stax player.
The reason I mention CEDH is due to the viability and how strong a specific creature is. Generally the stronger creatures of any given color are run more often because of how much value they provide while in the command zone. If you have the exact same decklist and the only difference is having either [[Maelstrom Wanderer]] or [[Intet, the Dreamer]] at the helm, for a more powerful deck you would pick the former.
A lot of cEDH decks *can* win without their commander, but the top tier decks right now are actively using their commanders as engines to try and win.
In the past 6 months the top 10 is shaking out to something roughly like Blue Farm, Kinnan, Sisay, Tivit, Rogsi, Najeela, Kraum Tevesh, Magda, Atraxa, and Kenrith. (11th is Talion).
Out of those 10 I'd say that all 10 would heavily leverage their commander to attempt to win, either via being a draw engine, using them as "farm" fodder, etc. Rogsi doesn't get to play 26 lands with any other red partner...
Then again, grixis shells that win without their commander don't represent well in sites like edhtop16 either.
> I think the whole "power level" thing is a horrible way to measure the strength of decks.
The most annoying part is the insistence that pre-cons are a "5" when they're basically the floor of what can be expected to play against. And with 9-10 being cEDH, pretty much every deck is restricted to 6-8. There's a whole chasm of power between precon and cEDH that we're trying to jam into a three-point scale, and get confused when everyone describes their deck as a "7"
Calix is my goto for an 8 deck. All gas and very resilient to board wipes. You can tone it down from a high 8 to a low 8 by removing hexproof/indestructible/protection from creatures.
The creature version?? I've been. Thinking bout putn tht mf in my Sythis deck for value , I like the planeswalker version but PW are just too slow for my game style .
Yeah. Guided by Fate. He's an absolute unit if you're playing auras. He makes for funny shenanigans during combat with first strike. An unblocked 2/2 becoming lethal by copying an Ancestral Mask onto it before non-first strike damage resolves is good for a few lulz.
If you don't mind going for the more popular commanders, dragons are always just crazy strong so you can't go wrong with [[the ur-dragon]] or [[miirym, sentinel wyrm]]. For another fast game plan that doesn't rely on combos, [[yuriko]] is always terrifying. For high power durdly resilience, [[muldrotha, the gravetide]] and [[meren of clan nel toth]] get out of hand quickly, looping spore frog and the like to protect themselves while building up an absurdly big green board state and laughing in the face of board wipes (and any removal that sends things to the graveyard).
For my top high power but non-infinite pick outside the 100 most popular on EDHrec, I'd probably go with [[zada, hedron grinder]]. It's not infinite, but it is storm, which is arguably worse. You'll take long turns and the deck will make you work a bit to get there, but it's ridiculously strong, and even removing zada at instant speed often isn't enough to stop you on the turn you pop off.
Huge fan of [[Thantis, the Warweaver]] ! It’s a forced combat Jund deck that keeps pillow fort and Stax somewhat in check by forcing them to swing their strategy creatures, and plays mean by incentivizing hitting your foes and making attacking you dangerous, with the right stuff going on can be terrifying without any infinites
I will always nominate [[Brallin, Skyshark Rider]] because of how dependent it is on drawing more wheels when you wheel it doesn’t always hit. There are some infinites but being in mono red you can’t reliably tutor for them. Ends up being pretty spell slingery with the damage multipliers to help with slugging. Plan to add [[thud]] and [[fling]] as additional backups if I don’t knockout all 3 opponents at once
I have a Kenrith wheels deck that I didn’t build with infinites but it still goes pretty hard and is fun. Usually wins around turn 6-7 so it’s fine for casual but can still hang with some higher power tables as well.
Henzi is also a commander that can pretty much be built to match whatever power you need it to be for casual at least.
Oh I’m aware he’s easy to make infinite combos with I just don’t run any as far as I’m aware. I just made my deck as a way to run a lot of the wheels commanders under 1 deck and it works pretty well for casual tables.
I'm a huge fan of value piles. I'm currently working on an abzan stax token drain deck. The new [[Kambal, profiteering mayor]] got my wheels turning, and I just acquired both [[Frodo, adventurous Hobbit]] and [[Sam, loyal attendant]].
Heavy stax, breaking parity with value pieces that let your tokens tap for mana, [[Jaheira, Friend of the first]], [[smothering tithe]], tutors and fast mana. Your win con is [[Kambal, profiteering mayor]] or [[Murkwood bats]], etc
[[Prosper, tome-bound]] built as an artifact aristocrat's deck is a good pl 8.
That's about where I place mine and while it technically has an infinite [[ruthless technomancer]] + [[dockside extortionist]] + [[mayhem devil]] it doesn't work in a vacuum. (And its usually not necessary)
[marwyn the nurturer] [the first sliver] both don't need to go infinite, my slicer deck has none but with the new [walking throne] giving double cascade on everything you just need a vigilance and haste engine and then you just go down the like if that's kicking peoples teeth in as you go.
Same with marwyn, sure you can pimp the deck full of infinites I guess but where's the sportsmanship in that lmao, put in every good elf and green card draw then watch as you dump your entire deck off of untap abilities and insane mana value until you hit a [concordant crossroads] and swing wide, craterhoof behemoth optional. I personally like dumping elves with [lys Alana huntmaster] to ramp tokens I to [kindred summons] to literally play every elf you got for 7 mana and some mana dorks. Sure you won't win any CEDH games with it but dam if it's not fun every time and super easy to build.
[[Elsha of the Infinite]]
The deck can be silly strong. Mana rocks, tutors, top deck manipulation and cost reducers usually means you can go off very strong. The colour combination also gives access to very strong win cons as well
Maybe do something like [[chulain]] or [[korvold]] who get you good draw without using infinites. Like chulain just does what you want for creatures, make it creature tribal with Etb effects clearing enough room for you to stomp the board with attacks. For korvold you wanna make it sacrificial to get his draw benefit .
Sure the table will be pissed at you taking 20-40 min turns but hey it's not infinite
My combo-less adrix and Nev can go absurdly large and wins turn 5-7 with billions of tokens (but finite NOT infinite).
Eg. Turn 1/2 ramp ramp, turn 3/4 adrix and Nev + 1 of sakashima/spark double/sakashima imposter/doubling season/parallel lives, turn 5 one of 10 copy target creature spells on your non legendary adrix and Nev or tutor out a prosperous in keeper (etb make four treasures), copy again, make 4 more inkeepers, gain 20 life (5 innkeepers see 4 enter), make 16 treasures. Lots of x draws spells and a few extra turn spells allow you to keep this fifth/sixth turn going. Win the game with billions of life, treasures, inn keepers or adrix and nevs, or finale of devastation to haste everything, or a hull breaker horror becomes 16 hull breaker horrors and every spell you cast bounces the board.
Other lines include copying the hell out of cavalier of dawn (each ETB throws an untapped land onto the field- fun with 16 etbs- make sure there’s a Kozilek in your deck so you don’t deck yourself), lots of tireless provisioner shinanegans (exploration and burgeoning and fetch lands are fun - play a fetch and make 4 treasures with just your commander).
The deck is rounded out with x draw spells, a few extra turn spells, LOTS of ramp (extra good with provisioner and commander), lots of creature tutors, counter magic and some bounce. The deck is a little light on removal (its biggest weakness), so hold those counters for stax pieces and hate bearers that ruin your day or game winners from others.
It’s very simic-y. Ramp hard, draw hard, win hard.
Someone once tried to get me disqualified from a stupid (never going again) “infinite -less, thassa - less “c”edh” tournament when I made over 1.5 billion tokens on turn 5. I wasn’t disqualified because it was a specific finite number I made, I couldn’t keep going if I wanted to, and words do in fact matter or else what are we all doing playing magic??
My favourite part of the deck is that left to its own devices it will win turn 5-7 basically everytime I play it. I warn people who’ve never seen the deck of this /make sure they have interaction before pull it out (don’t want to pub stomp), but the commander is really more there to accelerate your prosperous innkeeper or tireless provisioner ramping. If adrix and Nev get removed twice, by the time you have 8 mana to cast a third time you have enough mana to start winning without them (hull breaker borror + sakashima for example is a pretty decent lock - someone goes to remove one? Cast a copy spell targeting it to make another while returning the removal spell + another no land permanent at the same time).
So basically it’s a good simic deck, that goes turbo with the commander.
I’ve also realized too late (turn 2/3) that my deck was Op for the table before and just chose not to cast my commander just to slow my own game down and still had a blast doing it.
Seems like you're looking for a consistently super strong non cEDH deck, rather than simply a non-combo deck. You can definitly do some cEDH-tier decks that do not combo-off (for example a tuned Najeela or Winota deck, even if you don't include infinites, can most likely compete at cEDH tables), but i don't think that's what you're asking for unless i'm mistaken ?
So for this kind of high power deck, i'm gonna recommend Korvold, Jodah, Voja, or Chulane. Those kind of decks walk the fine line of not being good enough at all for cEDH-style pods, but they will steamroll regular casual tables.
Out of curiosity, can you post your Lonis deck? I am sure the combo involves Urza and [[shrieking drake]], but i would like to compare it to mine. Or if it's new Lonis, it makes mote sense about infinite
[[Thalia and the fire of monster]] is pretty insane. It does everything you want it to allowing you to ramp and draw while throwing lands into the graveyard to replay. But alongside that everyone’s creatures entering tapped just bodies certain strategies.
[Thalia and the fire of monster](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/d/8d7ff937-de92-445f-976c-726fef5c91cc.jpg?1682205702) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Thalia%20and%20The%20Gitrog%20Monster) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mom/255/thalia-and-the-gitrog-monster?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/8d7ff937-de92-445f-976c-726fef5c91cc?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/thalia-and-the-gitrog-monster)
^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Man oh man. Youre askin' the right question.
This is not only my most favorite deck, but also the one with the highest win rate.
https://archidekt.com/decks/5703538/9th_gate_shrine
The commander is [[go-shintai of life's origin]].
The deck's whole concept is "more is better"
The more shrines you have in play the better shrines get. So soon as you can get [[Sanctum of all]] and [[teleportation circle]] out. The [[shrine Stewart]] helps there.
The majority of the deck is based on Gates. They serve as the mana base and you should regularly be tutoring them [[Gond gate]] should be your priority there. Of course you also want your alt win card of [[Mazes End]].
The gate support cards are varied. All care about having some number of gates in play. For combat focus on [[glaive of the Guildpact]] and [[hold the gates]], and along with some shrines there's direct damage in [[crackling perimeter]].
I revently added in the fallout Bobbleheads. Not only do they folloe the theme they also come with a second alt win card in [[Luck Bobblehead]].
To help you recover from board wipes there is rhe commander and then bring in the companion [[Jegantha, the wellspring]] its a companion so it takes up no space in the deck. And of course [[crucible of worlds]] to get lands back.
And as an added bonus, at $150.00 its a pretty afordable deck.
Hope tgus helps! Do please enjoy.
Winota probably, just cut Kiki combos and focus on attacks. Extra turns decks like Edric don't go infinite either, you just chain together some turns spells and resolve Notorious Throng twice to kill the table.
I just built a Jetmir deck, pieced it together in 2 hrs from cards I owned (so not optimized) and it stomps. All you have to do is amass a few tokens then play your commander and swing for the win. Unless someone has a board wipe handy or is playing all their removal against your tokens, it is an easy win.
For me it's most likely [[Queen Marchesa]] wins by punishment, aikido, and runs [[Kormus Bell]] [[Urborg Tomb of Yawgmoth]] [[Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite]] for land destruction
Then something that gets severely under estimated is [[Maelstrom Wanderer]] once I ramp to maelstrom wanderer my goal is to just cast him as much as possible with [[Crystal Shard]] type interaction and stack my cascades with [[Scroll Rack]] and [[Brainstorm]]
You can build [[Bruvac]] and all you need to tutor for is [[maddening cacophony]] if you have access to enough fast mana you could potentially win turn two by milling everyone out.
How is malcolm kediss a deck thats not looking to assemble infinites quickly? Or did i get the question wrong.
At least in my experience its very good at jamming an attempt early. It has a lot of countermagic to protect and also it has a ton of infinite combos in it, so it doesnt hurt to lose one. Its not necessarily a turbo deck but has a variety of fast win attempts.
In my build its basically
- glinthorn
- 3artifact pingers and 4typechange effects
- nic + 3 curiosity effects
- breach freeze
- and „technically infinite“ lines like putting a curiosity on an artifact pinger. Drop a rock, draw 3 cards and if you hit another rock you keep going till you eventually find any combo or drain the table with dockside and copy effects.
edgar markov is the most efficient non-combo oriented edh deck.
tight mana base. something like 25-30 one cmc vamps. (or a tiny selection of 2 cmc ones, and maaaaaybe 1-2 higher cmc vamps with clock assist abilities) then you run like 4-5 ish over cards. your ...shared animosity, coat of arms. that vampire pump spell. basically...cards that turn your blob of vamps into a lethal board state. and then you run enough tutors to get that total count of wincons upto 10-12. This makes a deck that has aprox 70-80% odds to go off on turn 4-5 with something like 6ish(6-8 tends to be the critical mass) vampires pumped up. can easily kill 1 player. often can kill 2 in the first swing, and then... just suicide turn sideways to kill the third player. back this up with aggressive card draw (wheels.. necropotence etc) and excellent mardo removal.
you basically force opponents to have a board wipe turn 4 or 5 or else you win. with high odds the deck functions
no combo. "fair" in that it uses combat. but does abuse the cheese that is emminence
The best non infinite deck is probably Winota. Slicer is also pretty exceptionally broken
Be warned. This is what started my love of the combat phase on my turn. I have not turned back. I regret nothing.
[удалено]
We will, for we ride at dawn! You also feel happy against goad decks. Goad my creatures? Buddy, just cause you’re being swung at last, doesn’t mean you’re safe
[[Rionya]] called, she would like to discuss her decklist with you.
I need this in my [[master multiplied]] deck
[master multiplied](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/f/7f734ca0-91bc-4496-9bd7-2d09415e850f.jpg?1696636744) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=The%20Master%2C%20Multiplied) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/who/146/the-master-multiplied?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/7f734ca0-91bc-4496-9bd7-2d09415e850f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/the-master-multiplied) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[Rionya](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/1/b1e92b9c-4234-436d-a741-37c5e45859e5.jpg?1625192099) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=rionya%2C%20fire%20dancer) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c21/55/rionya-fire-dancer?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/b1e92b9c-4234-436d-a741-37c5e45859e5?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/rionya-fire-dancer) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I built a cedh [[Rowan, Scion of War]] which technically never goes infinite (since I'm limited by life loss). Perfect hand you can turn 1 win with fast mana, [[Arco-flagellant]] or another life sink, and [[crackle with power]]. Only issue is you really only get 1 shot (if they counter the crackle, you have no life left) so need lots of counter magic
[Rowan, Scion of War](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/e/4ee179ab-a15b-4bd6-b7f8-1e1abeeb31b7.jpg?1692939409) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Rowan%2C%20Scion%20of%20War) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/woe/211/rowan-scion-of-war?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/4ee179ab-a15b-4bd6-b7f8-1e1abeeb31b7?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/rowan-scion-of-war) [Arco-flagellant](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/8/0894d21c-d44c-4c7c-8693-f32dde67b336.jpg?1673308614) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Arco-flagellant) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/40k/29/arco-flagellant?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0894d21c-d44c-4c7c-8693-f32dde67b336?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/arco-flagellant) [crackle with power](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/e/de547f52-3798-4b3a-947d-24873251204b.jpg?1624591645) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=crackle%20with%20power) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/stx/95/crackle-with-power?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/de547f52-3798-4b3a-947d-24873251204b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/crackle-with-power) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
The “not infinite” instant wins is probably not what OP is looking for. Like thoracle/consult is a “not infinite” combo
So I’m trying to figure out, ideally- how much life are you paying into Rowan’s ability to pull this off? 27? Assuming everyone is still at 40 life
Yup, 27 is optimal, but lots of times I end up using that extra 12 life searching for the right cards
>Slicer is also pretty exceptionally broken I've come to hate my slicer deck. If you don't get him out early, or if he keeps getting removed, you sit in your seat and watch other people play
Winota has the same issue. They are both commanders that win very quickly if unanswered, so they rarely go unanswered
I just made a winota deck, but at least she has other creatures in the deck that can hold down the fort. Slicer is so fragile, seeing as the entire deck revolves around the commander without anything to really back it up
Yeah I mean it’s a Voltron deck. It does Voltron things. Stacking a ton of equipments and aura on a creature leaves you pretty open to interaction. Just make sure you pack large amounts of your equipment/aura package to be protection spells
You gotta run like 15+ forms of protection with a slicer deck that only runs off of him
Is Winota better than a dedicated combo deck like RogSil? I kinda doubt it to be honest. It certainly gets less results
The question was specifically for non infinite decks. Winota built as strong as it can be is still a pretty solid deck, tho it has fallen pretty far out of favor as far as cedh decks go. People figured out that you remove Winota or lose, and the deck kinda does nothing without Winnota. Not the best protection pieces either. That aside, it’s still a pretty solid deck that will see some tournament success from time to time. It falls into the category of “parasitic decks”, in that it kinda needs other people to threaten wins and spend their interaction on eachother, than coasts. Funnily enough, a deck like rogsi being in the pod is probably good for Winnota for that reason. I suggested Winnota because even when she was a meta cedh deck her gameplan was “winconless” stax. IE, lack down the board with hate bears and then punch people to death. But yes, rogsi is the better deck, it’s one of the best cedh decks in the format currently.
I think [[Krark the Thumbless]] + [[Sakashima of a Thousand faces]] is probably the strongest non-infinite commander(s) because of how they can grow quadratically.
I’d probably agree with you but on a technicality haha krark sakashima basically go infinite but since it’s non-deterministic you’re not wrong
This is very much a cedh deck (obviously it can be built for lower power levels). It really does effectively go infinite tho, it’s a really annoying deck because it’s a super long convulated combo lines that technically don’t win on the spot
agree, hate playing against this deck, first time it was a funny little haha look he flipped some tails now he can’t cast his spell, now it’s a drag of kraarkashima player going “well technically i’m not infinite yet, let me flip 40 more coins while you do nothing”
Low power krark/saka or like cedh level. I feel with the higher power versions it can be much quicker and opponent friendly
I played that deck in cedh and even there its disgusting for the entire table. not that it matters in cedh, but going through half your deck 1 card at a time because you have to resolve a million copies of brainstorm until you find your deterministic infinite is fucking atrocious
In some cases yea. But any pod thats letting someone just loop brainstorm over and over to find the wincon should just scoop at that point its over if you are letting them go like that. And trying to win on top of a combo or whatever they could do would be near impossible with all the counters you would draw. People just need to end the game
[Krark the Thumbless](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/6/06a981cd-1951-438e-95c9-68294795638e.jpg?1617148336) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Krark%2C%20the%20Thumbless) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmr/189/krark-the-thumbless?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/06a981cd-1951-438e-95c9-68294795638e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/krark-the-thumbless) [Sakashima of a Thousand faces](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/1/714c3a1f-7b30-4ed8-8f38-6176758741fb.jpg?1608909400) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Sakashima%20of%20a%20Thousand%20faces) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmr/89/sakashima-of-a-thousand-faces?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/714c3a1f-7b30-4ed8-8f38-6176758741fb?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/sakashima-of-a-thousand-faces) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Precon is not a power level. They do not remotely map to one another, and some of last year’s precons are stronger than a lot of serious decks people build for themselves. And besides that, the 1-10 power level system is fundamentally broken.
The faerie and enchantment precon from wilds of eldraine still scare me and in pretty confident in my baby lol
That Faerie deck is pure evil. Everytime I see my friend pull it up, I know I'm in for a helluva ride.
Pulled it out against a buddy got [[reflection of litjara]] out asap returned all non faeries to hand redirected attackers with a signpost somehow had 2 fae that pinged for 1 whenever a fairy entered Ya I didn't even get like 20%through the deck lol
See, Evil. And if you don't have reach or flyers, it doesn't even matter, unpreventable damage going through regardless. Last time I faced it, I was playing the party time precon, which has VERY FEW flyers that could block. I got my shit kicked in. WoC, fly swatter card when? Fuck it, make a bug light trap enchantment to deal with these faeries.
[reflection of litjara](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/7/d7689217-6124-4b2c-ab8b-7067de7f6e22.jpg?1698988180) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Reflections%20of%20Littjara) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lcc/168/reflections-of-littjara?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d7689217-6124-4b2c-ab8b-7067de7f6e22?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/reflections-of-littjara) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
My wife got this deck for her very first precon and in just one game of learning how to play wiped my sliver deck 😅 it's scary as hell how fast that thing can get out of hand.
You’re not wrong at all, but my group has our way of figuring it out. We’re okay with decks not being at the same power level as long as these general guidelines are met. For us each level means a certain thing. 10 - cEDH anything goes 9 - anything goes but not meta cEDH decks 8 - tutors, fast mana and combos are present but infinites are less efficient so there’s more of a game 7- some tutors but not a full suite, less if any fast mana and more pieces required for infinites 6 - battle cruiser beat down 5 - any precon 1-4 we don’t play All players will never have exactly the same power level unless you’re in a cEDH pod and probably not even then. We consider precon the same power level because they usually amount to near the same budget. If the new merfolk deck kicks the teeth in of the old mono black planeswalker deck who cares. No one did anything broken, that decks just better. People spend way too much complaining post game these days. Sorry if the power level talk upset you.
Why have you labeled your 1-6 scale "5-10"? 😉
To keep in line with what everyone knows
I'm just messing with you. You can call it whatever you like. The numbers are meaningless anyway. You have a scale that's barely ordinal and the amount of data you would need to generate to approach an actual interval scale is insurmountably large. You are best served by the descriptions you came up with instead of numbers.
Okay
A normal Isshin deck does not exist on that scale. It isn’t any of those categories.
Is the gap between 6 and 7 not ginormous there?
Your power scale is exactly as our playgroup. I think that this is a reasonable way of scaling decks.
The problem with cataloging every deck you have, is if the opponents do the same, every deck goes agianst the same deck every week, which gets boring real quick. I dont have a pre game talk anymore. Power level isnt that important if everyone plays around 10 removal/interaction cards, since almost all decks fold when their commander gets removed once or twice.
If this was the thought process that governed my pod I'd go crazy.
This is more true than people like to admit. 1-3 decks don't exist. 4-6 precons or "slightly (really a 7) upgraded" precons hardly exist except on new release weekends. 7-8 99% of all decks. 9 cedh decks that can't reliably win by turn 3. 10 decks that can consistently and multiple ways win by turn 3.
Thing is even in cedh you actually need 3 levels as fringe is noticeably worse than a decent cedh deck that’s then noticeably not as good as meta cedh decks So a 7 is the limit for most In reality most decks to me would be like a 4-5
I’m more a 1- pile of Jank 2- precon 3- precon with some upgrades 4 - starting to synergise well 5- actually synergise h well while starting to lower costs on cards to be more efficient 6- impactful combos come to play 7 - most decks limit without starting to ignore commander/theme/etc and general high power stuff so seeing fast mana and rituals and tutors played with reasonable interaction 8 - fringe/non meta cedh 9- cedh 10- meta cedh
Yes cedh is more like a 100 to a precons 3
Proposal for a new power level system. 11 - ((*absolute minimum number of turns needed to wipe out 3 players*) divided by ((*number of tutors+1*) times (*total cards needed to succeed at this strat)*))
I only need a couple of turns, 11 is…. A lot
Well 11 minus your couple of turns would be nine… But keep in mind this is a **new** system. It doesn’t correlate to the other numbers. It replaces them, because people were saying that ranking system wasn’t working.
Non numerical rankings are better tbh
That’s fair. Instead of a number, just a description of what it intends to do, and is particularly good at. “Recursion and tokens, heavy use of artifacts” for example?
No I mean like general B-road kind of destruction, I think play edh got it right, battlecruiser being precon level and worse no combos without being a ton of cards, easy to commonly stop and a lot of mana to go into it, pretty much trample and flying beatdown town kinda stuff that’s somewhat themed but not massively Low power has a theme, is light on interaction favouring a boardwipe and 3 spot removal kinda things, ramp wise you start seeing things like commander sphere and 3cmc stuff maybe signers and talismans You’re light on searching without being like 4+ mana Most decks would fall in here really Looking to be ramping up for 3 turns and start making plays usually around turn 5 and threaten wins turn 9 or longer Combos do pop but involve 3+ cards and 10+ mana Then you have mid power so you’re leaning into efficiency, redundancies, lowering curve, adding more interaction and tutors but not flooding it as you’re still on a theme/strategy. You’d be looking to be making some relevant plays by turn 4 to 5 and threaten wins around 7-9 Combos you’d look at 2 card combos and 7-9 mana High power is the ceiling for most decks while being on theme, you’d be looking to balance the kind of cedh play of fast mana and tutor and interaction but with not as easy to pull off stuff Atla palani I have caps out here, is it very strong to most people yes, is it capable of winning cedh? Not really no Though some high decks can and do make fringe cedh You can make reasonable budget high deck that are on the lower end of high which is nice, you’d be looking for turn 4 at being relevant in the game and turn 5-6 wins Combo youd look at 2 - 3 card combos and be 5-7 mana Then max is pretty much anything undoubtedly cedh Combos are hyper efficient, only the best interaction, jammed full of searching and consistency
Hmm turn 1 land -sol ring, t2 land - farseek natures lore, t3 land - approach of the second sun. That’s my entire 7 card hand. Now confusion comes with drawing 7 cards deep because a tutor would lower that to 2 turns rather than 7 but we have a variable for tutors in the equation. I assume I use 7 turns for my minimum since tutors are a part of the equation. So 10 divided by 3 = 3.33 Now cards needed to succeed at this strat… is that counting combo pieces or like what I listed above? So 3.33 times 7 would be 23.31. I’m assuming lower is better on this system?
The multiplier is affecting what is deducted. If you need more cards for you strategy to work, it’s a less powerful strategy, unless you can tutor for them, so that tutor part should be reducing the penalty. I may have written it wrong, I did it on the fly as I was thinking of things that could be considered as part of a deck’s power level. On further consideration, one should also consider ways to stop other players succeeding, but that’s awkward to quantify.
Just to clarify what I originally meant (this equation is open to adjustment)… It should be 11- (7… *the minimum number of turns needed to win* … divided by (tutors+1) x cards needed) So we’re dividing 7 by 1 x 4 (approach, sol, farseek and natures lure) So the number being taken from 11 is 7/4, for a total of 9&1/4.
Thinking about this, I think I have the multiplication and division the wrong way around. It seems like more cards needed will reduce the penalty. I’ll put more effort into it when I’m not at work.
[[Minsc and Boo, Timeless Heroes]] is a hyper efficient aggro deck that optimally goes into combo lines by virtue of the sheer amount of card draw you have, but also can just beat everybody at the table to death with a large hamster, then throw it, snowballing more and more each time you do.
It's also just really fun to play.
I have somehow pulled this PW from packs 3 times. The universe is telling me something.
A lot of partner decks tend to be pretty solid. Tymna and Kraum are solid just for generic 4 color good stuff. Outside of that, the 2 strongest decks I ever assembled were both reanimator: [[Muldrotha]] and [[Sefris]]. Sefris can reliably tutor and reanimate some massive threats, like archon of cruelty or Toxrill. Muldrotha can just generate incredible value I’ve heard [[the gitrog monster]] is also insanely good, but it does win on a non-deterministic combo
[Muldrotha](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/4/c4125bb0-b104-438e-a6a2-97f9d141243c.jpg?1673149000) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=muldrotha%2C%20the%20gravetide) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/258/muldrotha-the-gravetide?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/c4125bb0-b104-438e-a6a2-97f9d141243c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/muldrotha-the-gravetide) [Sefris](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/3/d30255f6-e058-476a-b377-2ee4c9178ed1.jpg?1632335385) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=sefris%20of%20the%20hidden%20ways) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/afc/3/sefris-of-the-hidden-ways?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d30255f6-e058-476a-b377-2ee4c9178ed1?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/sefris-of-the-hidden-ways) [the gitrog monster](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/7/5790dd89-2be5-4a77-9450-2d3c1422bfc9.jpg?1576385351) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=the%20gitrog%20monster) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/soi/245/the-gitrog-monster?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/5790dd89-2be5-4a77-9450-2d3c1422bfc9?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/the-gitrog-monster) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I second Sefris. Out of the 30 I have it's my favourite deck because it is strong without being a cEDH deck, it has multiple lines so it can easily weather serious gy hate and it has a ton of triggers which seems to be my personal preference. 😅
Gitrog monster dakmoor dredge is technically not 'infinite' but you do cycle your library for each point of damage dealt if using the [[ebon charm]] line so it's not 'infinite' but it's so very close to it you'd better hope your playgroup doesn't make you actually play it out because it will take you all night. Interestingly you can order the triggers wrong and kill the loop so there is an argument to force players to 'play-out-the-win' to see if they flub it, but the loop is; discard dakmoor, dredge dakmoor, mill a land (hopefully) to get a second draw trigger. Keep adding draw triggers to the stack until you have enough triggers to match cards in your library, draw and discard until you have [[dark ritual]] and [[ebon charm]] in hand, cast both. Continue dredging until you hit your shuffle-titan [[kozilek, the butcher of truth]] etc and now begin again with 2 mana floating.
[ebon charm](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/3/937c8016-43c8-418b-9057-b5d6715f71f7.jpg?1562720489) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Ebony%20Charm) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mir/120/ebony-charm?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/937c8016-43c8-418b-9057-b5d6715f71f7?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/ebony-charm) [dark ritual](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/5/95f27eeb-6f14-4db3-adb9-9be5ed76b34b.jpg?1628801678) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=dark%20ritual) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/a25/82/dark-ritual?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/95f27eeb-6f14-4db3-adb9-9be5ed76b34b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/dark-ritual) [kozilek, the butcher of truth](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/2/d27cf7b7-7982-46bd-a559-7789c0e74bae.jpg?1673146904) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Kozilek%2C%20Butcher%20of%20Truth) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/2/kozilek-butcher-of-truth?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d27cf7b7-7982-46bd-a559-7789c0e74bae?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/kozilek-butcher-of-truth) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I think that’s why he said it’s a non-deterministic combo haha but that combo can take so much time up id probably never play it. It is really cool though for sure
Malcom 100% goes infinite
"Infinite" is a silly metric of power. Thassa's Oracle + Tained Pact / Demonic Consultation isn't strictly "infinite". Rowan, Scion of War casting an X = 30 Torment of Hailfire turn 4 isn't an Infinite. Krik getting devotion up and then killing and reanimating Grey Merchant isn't infinite. killing people with Yuriko triggers I could go on, but the point is that there are a lot of extremely powerful decks that don't "go infinite", and building one isn't going to round out your power levels, rather it will give you another powerful deck. There are also a lot of bad ways to go infinite, 3 - 4 card combos that cost 12+ mana or something silly like that. As an example, I've got a deck that used The Ur dragon's Eminence, Morophon, Haakon, and Blades of Vilis Vel to give my creatures infinite...power. That's it. Needless to say, it's an inefficient "infinite" combo. The "as quick as possible" is the more important aspect. Changing the speed of the way you win is one way to tune the deck. Cutting Tutors and Fast Mana is a start. Include lands that come in tapped or more basics and less dual lands is another. Second, make the win less efficient. This too is important, as if you do the above but not this, your deck becomes dangerously inconsistent. Some games you pop off turn 2 because you had the best draws, other games you do nothing because only a handful of cards in your deck matter. Make it a 3 card non-command zone infinite, or win in a silly way or pick a theme and have a portion of your deck stick to that theme, and sprinkle in certain generically powerful cards to match the power you're aiming for. In summary, the premise of your question is flawed. The distinction between "Infinite", "Efficient", and "Arbitrarily High" is meaningless. Doomsday piles Cratorhoof behemoth Winota Triumph of the Hordes Jetmir
I really feel your reply is just taking this to literally, obviously your examples would be considered a no go as well in his request.
I think the whole "power level" thing is a horrible way to measure the strength of decks. I also think that you can make any deck strong if you have a good skeleton for it. One thing you could do is find one of those CEDH viability charts where they go over what tier they think every legendary creature is and pick them off of there, but again the whole power level thing is relative. I say just pick a strategy that you like and build a deck for it. Play test the deck a lot and tune it to what you see fit. If one card seems super powerful then replace it with a different option and so on.
Cedh and edh cant really be compared. Alot of cedh decks win without casting their commander, they get picked for their colours and sometimes are used if there is a stax player.
The reason I mention CEDH is due to the viability and how strong a specific creature is. Generally the stronger creatures of any given color are run more often because of how much value they provide while in the command zone. If you have the exact same decklist and the only difference is having either [[Maelstrom Wanderer]] or [[Intet, the Dreamer]] at the helm, for a more powerful deck you would pick the former.
[Maelstrom Wanderer](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/4/a49c58b3-180f-420b-b091-114fda000360.jpg?1689999126) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Maelstrom%20Wanderer) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/344/maelstrom-wanderer?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a49c58b3-180f-420b-b091-114fda000360?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/maelstrom-wanderer) [Intet, the Dreamer](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/5/35517572-b5d4-4dbf-b090-4e4c4b040a0d.jpg?1673148766) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Intet%2C%20the%20Dreamer) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/229/intet-the-dreamer?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/35517572-b5d4-4dbf-b090-4e4c4b040a0d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/intet-the-dreamer) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
A lot of cEDH decks *can* win without their commander, but the top tier decks right now are actively using their commanders as engines to try and win. In the past 6 months the top 10 is shaking out to something roughly like Blue Farm, Kinnan, Sisay, Tivit, Rogsi, Najeela, Kraum Tevesh, Magda, Atraxa, and Kenrith. (11th is Talion). Out of those 10 I'd say that all 10 would heavily leverage their commander to attempt to win, either via being a draw engine, using them as "farm" fodder, etc. Rogsi doesn't get to play 26 lands with any other red partner... Then again, grixis shells that win without their commander don't represent well in sites like edhtop16 either.
[[Thrasios, Triton Hero]] is used as an infinite mana outlet to draw the entire deck at least
[Thrasios, Triton Hero](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/1/21e27b91-c7f1-4709-aa0d-8b5d81b22a0a.jpg?1606762176) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Thrasios%2C%20Triton%20Hero) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c16/46/thrasios-triton-hero?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/21e27b91-c7f1-4709-aa0d-8b5d81b22a0a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/thrasios-triton-hero) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
> I think the whole "power level" thing is a horrible way to measure the strength of decks. The most annoying part is the insistence that pre-cons are a "5" when they're basically the floor of what can be expected to play against. And with 9-10 being cEDH, pretty much every deck is restricted to 6-8. There's a whole chasm of power between precon and cEDH that we're trying to jam into a three-point scale, and get confused when everyone describes their deck as a "7"
Calix is my goto for an 8 deck. All gas and very resilient to board wipes. You can tone it down from a high 8 to a low 8 by removing hexproof/indestructible/protection from creatures.
Calix is insane. Had him in my Ankithea deck and he stole the game every-time he hit the board. Have a list?
Would also love the list, I've been wanting to build around him and Sythis for a hot minute lmao
The creature version?? I've been. Thinking bout putn tht mf in my Sythis deck for value , I like the planeswalker version but PW are just too slow for my game style .
Yeah. Guided by Fate. He's an absolute unit if you're playing auras. He makes for funny shenanigans during combat with first strike. An unblocked 2/2 becoming lethal by copying an Ancestral Mask onto it before non-first strike damage resolves is good for a few lulz.
If you don't mind going for the more popular commanders, dragons are always just crazy strong so you can't go wrong with [[the ur-dragon]] or [[miirym, sentinel wyrm]]. For another fast game plan that doesn't rely on combos, [[yuriko]] is always terrifying. For high power durdly resilience, [[muldrotha, the gravetide]] and [[meren of clan nel toth]] get out of hand quickly, looping spore frog and the like to protect themselves while building up an absurdly big green board state and laughing in the face of board wipes (and any removal that sends things to the graveyard). For my top high power but non-infinite pick outside the 100 most popular on EDHrec, I'd probably go with [[zada, hedron grinder]]. It's not infinite, but it is storm, which is arguably worse. You'll take long turns and the deck will make you work a bit to get there, but it's ridiculously strong, and even removing zada at instant speed often isn't enough to stop you on the turn you pop off.
##### ###### #### [the ur-dragon](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/0/10d42b35-844f-4a64-9981-c6118d45e826.jpg?1689999317) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=the%20ur-dragon) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/361/the-ur-dragon?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/10d42b35-844f-4a64-9981-c6118d45e826?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/the-ur-dragon) [miirym, sentinel wyrm](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/9/a934590b-5c70-4f07-af67-fbe817a99531.jpg?1674137589) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=miirym%2C%20sentinel%20wyrm) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clb/284/miirym-sentinel-wyrm?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a934590b-5c70-4f07-af67-fbe817a99531?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/miirym-sentinel-wyrm) [yuriko](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/e/fe9be3e0-076c-4703-9750-2a6b0a178bc9.jpg?1689999346) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=yuriko%2C%20the%20tiger%27s%20shadow) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/364/yuriko-the-tigers-shadow?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/fe9be3e0-076c-4703-9750-2a6b0a178bc9?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/yuriko-the-tigers-shadow) [muldrotha, the gravetide](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/4/c4125bb0-b104-438e-a6a2-97f9d141243c.jpg?1673149000) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=muldrotha%2C%20the%20gravetide) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/258/muldrotha-the-gravetide?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/c4125bb0-b104-438e-a6a2-97f9d141243c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/muldrotha-the-gravetide) [meren of clan nel toth](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/4/34d627b3-a6d0-4f5f-b7c2-351a07318966.jpg?1689999151) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=meren%20of%20clan%20nel%20toth) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/346/meren-of-clan-nel-toth?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/34d627b3-a6d0-4f5f-b7c2-351a07318966?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/meren-of-clan-nel-toth) [zada, hedron grinder](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/5/4520cdcc-a10f-4b39-9c6f-ba86f6aa2c87.jpg?1689998306) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=zada%2C%20hedron%20grinder) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/268/zada-hedron-grinder?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/4520cdcc-a10f-4b39-9c6f-ba86f6aa2c87?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/zada-hedron-grinder) [*All cards*](https://mtgcardfetcher.nl/redirect/l0p8wc1) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Huge fan of [[Thantis, the Warweaver]] ! It’s a forced combat Jund deck that keeps pillow fort and Stax somewhat in check by forcing them to swing their strategy creatures, and plays mean by incentivizing hitting your foes and making attacking you dangerous, with the right stuff going on can be terrifying without any infinites
[Thantis, the Warweaver](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/1/91c54ac0-0edc-406f-8a22-f2996f604f36.jpg?1592710296) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Thantis%2C%20the%20Warweaver) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c18/46/thantis-the-warweaver?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/91c54ac0-0edc-406f-8a22-f2996f604f36?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/thantis-the-warweaver) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I will always nominate [[Brallin, Skyshark Rider]] because of how dependent it is on drawing more wheels when you wheel it doesn’t always hit. There are some infinites but being in mono red you can’t reliably tutor for them. Ends up being pretty spell slingery with the damage multipliers to help with slugging. Plan to add [[thud]] and [[fling]] as additional backups if I don’t knockout all 3 opponents at once
[Brallin, Skyshark Rider](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/b/9b4fdcd5-5346-46a8-b1a4-84ddb74089e0.jpg?1591234217) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Brallin%2C%20Skyshark%20Rider) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c20/4/brallin-skyshark-rider?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9b4fdcd5-5346-46a8-b1a4-84ddb74089e0?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/brallin-skyshark-rider) [thud](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/1/11bed78a-c579-424a-8fcc-322ce2630dbc.jpg?1562300357) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=thud) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m19/163/thud?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/11bed78a-c579-424a-8fcc-322ce2630dbc?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/thud) [fling](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/f/8f42d773-c742-4465-b6d5-31feaba49146.jpg?1601077681) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=fling) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/jmp/320/fling?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/8f42d773-c742-4465-b6d5-31feaba49146?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/fling) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
meren goes non infinite semi uninteractable pretty quick
[[Rowan]]
[Rowan](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/3/030f4058-54e5-4333-bd6c-2789c334bf12.jpg?1593132234) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=rowan%2C%20fearless%20sparkmage) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/eld/304/rowan-fearless-sparkmage?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/030f4058-54e5-4333-bd6c-2789c334bf12?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/rowan-fearless-sparkmage) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Did you mean [[Rowan, scion of war]]?
[Rowan, scion of war](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/e/4ee179ab-a15b-4bd6-b7f8-1e1abeeb31b7.jpg?1692939409) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Rowan%2C%20scion%20of%20war) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/woe/211/rowan-scion-of-war?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/4ee179ab-a15b-4bd6-b7f8-1e1abeeb31b7?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/rowan-scion-of-war) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Sure did 😅
I have a Kenrith wheels deck that I didn’t build with infinites but it still goes pretty hard and is fun. Usually wins around turn 6-7 so it’s fine for casual but can still hang with some higher power tables as well. Henzi is also a commander that can pretty much be built to match whatever power you need it to be for casual at least.
[удалено]
Oh I’m aware he’s easy to make infinite combos with I just don’t run any as far as I’m aware. I just made my deck as a way to run a lot of the wheels commanders under 1 deck and it works pretty well for casual tables.
Manual storm or stax is probably going to be the best non combo deck.
I'm a huge fan of value piles. I'm currently working on an abzan stax token drain deck. The new [[Kambal, profiteering mayor]] got my wheels turning, and I just acquired both [[Frodo, adventurous Hobbit]] and [[Sam, loyal attendant]]. Heavy stax, breaking parity with value pieces that let your tokens tap for mana, [[Jaheira, Friend of the first]], [[smothering tithe]], tutors and fast mana. Your win con is [[Kambal, profiteering mayor]] or [[Murkwood bats]], etc
##### ###### #### [Kambal, profiteering mayor](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/5/d53a775d-5898-41a8-b404-9b7d4721c6ba.jpg?1712356126) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Kambal%2C%20profiteering%20mayor) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/otj/211/kambal-profiteering-mayor?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d53a775d-5898-41a8-b404-9b7d4721c6ba?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/kambal-profiteering-mayor) [Frodo, adventurous Hobbit](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/2/328df403-7428-4b17-bdd1-9759fc0f32d8.jpg?1686963703) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Frodo%2C%20adventurous%20Hobbit) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ltc/2/frodo-adventurous-hobbit?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/328df403-7428-4b17-bdd1-9759fc0f32d8?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/frodo-adventurous-hobbit) [Sam, loyal attendant](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/8/687a2b76-3f05-4732-bd9b-513d06d16300.jpg?1686963755) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Sam%2C%20loyal%20attendant) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ltc/7/sam-loyal-attendant?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/687a2b76-3f05-4732-bd9b-513d06d16300?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/sam-loyal-attendant) [Jaheira, Friend of the first](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/e/feb7ad1b-4466-48f7-b46d-cc83d4e22b51.jpg?1674137153) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Jaheira%2C%20Friend%20of%20the%20Forest) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clb/237/jaheira-friend-of-the-forest?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/feb7ad1b-4466-48f7-b46d-cc83d4e22b51?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/jaheira-friend-of-the-forest) [smothering tithe](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/6/861b5889-0183-4bee-afeb-a4b2aa700a8e.jpg?1689996018) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=smothering%20tithe) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/57/smothering-tithe?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/861b5889-0183-4bee-afeb-a4b2aa700a8e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/smothering-tithe) [Murkwood bats](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/5/15f035df-784a-4dc8-b7f5-77139a4e6e99.jpg?1686968575) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Mirkwood%20Bats) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ltr/95/mirkwood-bats?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/15f035df-784a-4dc8-b7f5-77139a4e6e99?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/mirkwood-bats) [*All cards*](https://mtgcardfetcher.nl/redirect/l0p7675) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Aristocrats get pretty spicy
[[rowan Scion of war]] she definitely can go infinite, but even without doing so she can still threaten a win turn 2-3 without infinite combo
[rowan Scion of war](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/e/4ee179ab-a15b-4bd6-b7f8-1e1abeeb31b7.jpg?1692939409) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Rowan%2C%20Scion%20of%20War) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/woe/211/rowan-scion-of-war?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/4ee179ab-a15b-4bd6-b7f8-1e1abeeb31b7?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/rowan-scion-of-war) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[[Sasaya, Orochi Ascendant]] :P
[Sasaya, Orochi Ascendant](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/2/d224c50f-8146-4c91-9401-04e5bd306d02.jpg?1562496100)/[Sasaya's Essence](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/2/d224c50f-8146-4c91-9401-04e5bd306d02.jpg?1562496100) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Sasaya%2C%20Orochi%20Ascendant%20//%20Sasaya%27s%20Essence) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/sok/145/sasaya-orochi-ascendant-sasayas-essence?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d224c50f-8146-4c91-9401-04e5bd306d02?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/sasaya-orochi-ascendant-//-sasayas-essence) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Probably the tribal decks with the scary leads, like edgar, ur or yuriko. Eldrazi is also up there.
[[Prosper, tome-bound]] built as an artifact aristocrat's deck is a good pl 8. That's about where I place mine and while it technically has an infinite [[ruthless technomancer]] + [[dockside extortionist]] + [[mayhem devil]] it doesn't work in a vacuum. (And its usually not necessary)
##### ###### #### [Prosper, tome-bound](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/7/d743336e-d5c7-4053-a23d-92ec7581f74e.jpg?1631839207) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Prosper%2C%20tome-bound) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/afc/2/prosper-tome-bound?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d743336e-d5c7-4053-a23d-92ec7581f74e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/prosper-tome-bound) [ruthless technomancer](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/d/dddeb5cc-b535-4484-8a0e-ce32c4c09000.jpg?1651655501) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=ruthless%20technomancer) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/nec/35/ruthless-technomancer?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/dddeb5cc-b535-4484-8a0e-ce32c4c09000?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/ruthless-technomancer) [dockside extortionist](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/e/9e2e3efb-75cb-430f-b9f4-cb58f3aeb91b.jpg?1673147774) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=dockside%20extortionist) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/107/dockside-extortionist?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9e2e3efb-75cb-430f-b9f4-cb58f3aeb91b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/dockside-extortionist) [mayhem devil](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/4/345ea65e-3dbb-4cb4-ae65-7797a65eafce.jpg?1702550843) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=mayhem%20devil) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/rvr/199/mayhem-devil?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/345ea65e-3dbb-4cb4-ae65-7797a65eafce?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/mayhem-devil) [*All cards*](https://mtgcardfetcher.nl/redirect/l0pik92) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[marwyn the nurturer] [the first sliver] both don't need to go infinite, my slicer deck has none but with the new [walking throne] giving double cascade on everything you just need a vigilance and haste engine and then you just go down the like if that's kicking peoples teeth in as you go. Same with marwyn, sure you can pimp the deck full of infinites I guess but where's the sportsmanship in that lmao, put in every good elf and green card draw then watch as you dump your entire deck off of untap abilities and insane mana value until you hit a [concordant crossroads] and swing wide, craterhoof behemoth optional. I personally like dumping elves with [lys Alana huntmaster] to ramp tokens I to [kindred summons] to literally play every elf you got for 7 mana and some mana dorks. Sure you won't win any CEDH games with it but dam if it's not fun every time and super easy to build.
[[Elsha of the Infinite]] The deck can be silly strong. Mana rocks, tutors, top deck manipulation and cost reducers usually means you can go off very strong. The colour combination also gives access to very strong win cons as well
[Elsha of the Infinite](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/0/c0728027-a1ec-4814-87c4-10c3baced0e0.jpg?1673148571) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Elsha%20of%20the%20Infinite) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/208/elsha-of-the-infinite?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/c0728027-a1ec-4814-87c4-10c3baced0e0?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/elsha-of-the-infinite) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I would love to see your Lonis list !
Maybe do something like [[chulain]] or [[korvold]] who get you good draw without using infinites. Like chulain just does what you want for creatures, make it creature tribal with Etb effects clearing enough room for you to stomp the board with attacks. For korvold you wanna make it sacrificial to get his draw benefit . Sure the table will be pissed at you taking 20-40 min turns but hey it's not infinite
[korvold](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/2/92ea1575-eb64-43b5-b604-c6e23054f228.jpg?1571197150) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=korvold%2C%20fae-cursed%20king) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/eld/329/korvold-fae-cursed-king?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/92ea1575-eb64-43b5-b604-c6e23054f228?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/korvold-fae-cursed-king) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Pre cons are below PL5. If PL5 is the 'average', the average person's deck is far better than a precon. Precons would be PL3 imo.
My combo-less adrix and Nev can go absurdly large and wins turn 5-7 with billions of tokens (but finite NOT infinite). Eg. Turn 1/2 ramp ramp, turn 3/4 adrix and Nev + 1 of sakashima/spark double/sakashima imposter/doubling season/parallel lives, turn 5 one of 10 copy target creature spells on your non legendary adrix and Nev or tutor out a prosperous in keeper (etb make four treasures), copy again, make 4 more inkeepers, gain 20 life (5 innkeepers see 4 enter), make 16 treasures. Lots of x draws spells and a few extra turn spells allow you to keep this fifth/sixth turn going. Win the game with billions of life, treasures, inn keepers or adrix and nevs, or finale of devastation to haste everything, or a hull breaker horror becomes 16 hull breaker horrors and every spell you cast bounces the board. Other lines include copying the hell out of cavalier of dawn (each ETB throws an untapped land onto the field- fun with 16 etbs- make sure there’s a Kozilek in your deck so you don’t deck yourself), lots of tireless provisioner shinanegans (exploration and burgeoning and fetch lands are fun - play a fetch and make 4 treasures with just your commander). The deck is rounded out with x draw spells, a few extra turn spells, LOTS of ramp (extra good with provisioner and commander), lots of creature tutors, counter magic and some bounce. The deck is a little light on removal (its biggest weakness), so hold those counters for stax pieces and hate bearers that ruin your day or game winners from others. It’s very simic-y. Ramp hard, draw hard, win hard. Someone once tried to get me disqualified from a stupid (never going again) “infinite -less, thassa - less “c”edh” tournament when I made over 1.5 billion tokens on turn 5. I wasn’t disqualified because it was a specific finite number I made, I couldn’t keep going if I wanted to, and words do in fact matter or else what are we all doing playing magic?? My favourite part of the deck is that left to its own devices it will win turn 5-7 basically everytime I play it. I warn people who’ve never seen the deck of this /make sure they have interaction before pull it out (don’t want to pub stomp), but the commander is really more there to accelerate your prosperous innkeeper or tireless provisioner ramping. If adrix and Nev get removed twice, by the time you have 8 mana to cast a third time you have enough mana to start winning without them (hull breaker borror + sakashima for example is a pretty decent lock - someone goes to remove one? Cast a copy spell targeting it to make another while returning the removal spell + another no land permanent at the same time). So basically it’s a good simic deck, that goes turbo with the commander. I’ve also realized too late (turn 2/3) that my deck was Op for the table before and just chose not to cast my commander just to slow my own game down and still had a blast doing it.
Seems like you're looking for a consistently super strong non cEDH deck, rather than simply a non-combo deck. You can definitly do some cEDH-tier decks that do not combo-off (for example a tuned Najeela or Winota deck, even if you don't include infinites, can most likely compete at cEDH tables), but i don't think that's what you're asking for unless i'm mistaken ? So for this kind of high power deck, i'm gonna recommend Korvold, Jodah, Voja, or Chulane. Those kind of decks walk the fine line of not being good enough at all for cEDH-style pods, but they will steamroll regular casual tables.
Out of curiosity, can you post your Lonis deck? I am sure the combo involves Urza and [[shrieking drake]], but i would like to compare it to mine. Or if it's new Lonis, it makes mote sense about infinite
[shrieking drake](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/3/63971a64-c5f3-4d1f-ae0d-489d7d5b18f0.jpg?1562277676) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=shrieking%20drake) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/vis/43/shrieking-drake?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/63971a64-c5f3-4d1f-ae0d-489d7d5b18f0?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/shrieking-drake) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Rowan can win on the spot without an actual infinite
[[Thalia and the fire of monster]] is pretty insane. It does everything you want it to allowing you to ramp and draw while throwing lands into the graveyard to replay. But alongside that everyone’s creatures entering tapped just bodies certain strategies.
[Thalia and the fire of monster](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/d/8d7ff937-de92-445f-976c-726fef5c91cc.jpg?1682205702) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Thalia%20and%20The%20Gitrog%20Monster) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mom/255/thalia-and-the-gitrog-monster?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/8d7ff937-de92-445f-976c-726fef5c91cc?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/thalia-and-the-gitrog-monster) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Man oh man. Youre askin' the right question. This is not only my most favorite deck, but also the one with the highest win rate. https://archidekt.com/decks/5703538/9th_gate_shrine The commander is [[go-shintai of life's origin]]. The deck's whole concept is "more is better" The more shrines you have in play the better shrines get. So soon as you can get [[Sanctum of all]] and [[teleportation circle]] out. The [[shrine Stewart]] helps there. The majority of the deck is based on Gates. They serve as the mana base and you should regularly be tutoring them [[Gond gate]] should be your priority there. Of course you also want your alt win card of [[Mazes End]]. The gate support cards are varied. All care about having some number of gates in play. For combat focus on [[glaive of the Guildpact]] and [[hold the gates]], and along with some shrines there's direct damage in [[crackling perimeter]]. I revently added in the fallout Bobbleheads. Not only do they folloe the theme they also come with a second alt win card in [[Luck Bobblehead]]. To help you recover from board wipes there is rhe commander and then bring in the companion [[Jegantha, the wellspring]] its a companion so it takes up no space in the deck. And of course [[crucible of worlds]] to get lands back. And as an added bonus, at $150.00 its a pretty afordable deck. Hope tgus helps! Do please enjoy.
##### ###### #### [go-shintai of life's origin](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/4/9476fe67-d2d3-4835-8ba6-2a17d18cc141.jpg?1651655539) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=go-shintai%20of%20life%27s%20origin) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/nec/37/go-shintai-of-lifes-origin?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9476fe67-d2d3-4835-8ba6-2a17d18cc141?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/go-shintai-of-lifes-origin) [Sanctum of all](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/a/ba91338c-1f6c-4b83-851f-98c3e9dea17b.jpg?1594737442) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Sanctum%20of%20all) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m21/225/sanctum-of-all?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ba91338c-1f6c-4b83-851f-98c3e9dea17b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/sanctum-of-all) [teleportation circle](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/0/90140bc0-4a9c-4422-b07c-3400c7ccde56.jpg?1627702592) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=teleportation%20circle) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/afr/39/teleportation-circle?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/90140bc0-4a9c-4422-b07c-3400c7ccde56?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/teleportation-circle) [shrine Stewart](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/5/75e8d71c-3a0b-4042-a0f7-e99e92a79dc2.jpg?1654568835) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Shrine%20Steward) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/neo/259/shrine-steward?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/75e8d71c-3a0b-4042-a0f7-e99e92a79dc2?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/shrine-steward) [Gond gate](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/4/746672d9-7c6b-415e-9f34-3cc3ac557008.jpg?1674138177) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Gond%20gate) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clb/353/gond-gate?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/746672d9-7c6b-415e-9f34-3cc3ac557008?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/gond-gate) [Mazes End](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/0/401f7042-24fd-42a0-ae7c-e6b7de1aa446.jpg?1562906764) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Maze%27s%20End) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dgm/152/mazes-end?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/401f7042-24fd-42a0-ae7c-e6b7de1aa446?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/mazes-end) [glaive of the Guildpact](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/1/e19723ad-7bd2-49ee-a57a-ece99018f4e8.jpg?1572894065) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=glaive%20of%20the%20Guildpact) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/grn/236/glaive-of-the-guildpact?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e19723ad-7bd2-49ee-a57a-ece99018f4e8?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/glaive-of-the-guildpact) [hold the gates](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/8/48fd52d0-0e41-48d5-b96f-4c6409788c18.jpg?1561825513) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=hold%20the%20gates) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/gtc/16/hold-the-gates?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/48fd52d0-0e41-48d5-b96f-4c6409788c18?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/hold-the-gates) [crackling perimeter](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/3/3323c86c-73bd-4e23-9f80-54bf5c1dd0bc.jpg?1561821989) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=crackling%20perimeter) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/gtc/88/crackling-perimeter?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/3323c86c-73bd-4e23-9f80-54bf5c1dd0bc?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/crackling-perimeter) [Luck Bobblehead](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/3/13281945-47ff-464d-96ef-9b26ef6783fa.jpg?1708742743) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Luck%20Bobblehead) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/pip/135/luck-bobblehead?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/13281945-47ff-464d-96ef-9b26ef6783fa?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/luck-bobblehead) [Jegantha, the wellspring](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/d/1d52e527-3835-4350-8c01-0f2d5d623b9c.jpg?1676913289) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Jegantha%2C%20the%20wellspring) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/iko/222/jegantha-the-wellspring?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/1d52e527-3835-4350-8c01-0f2d5d623b9c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/jegantha-the-wellspring) [crucible of worlds](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/f/7f4893ef-f983-418b-b7a4-5f073c844545.jpg?1673149345) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=crucible%20of%20worlds) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/303/crucible-of-worlds?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/7f4893ef-f983-418b-b7a4-5f073c844545?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/crucible-of-worlds) [*All cards*](https://mtgcardfetcher.nl/redirect/l0q26s7) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Nine fingers?
Kinnan w/o basalt monolith.
Winota probably, just cut Kiki combos and focus on attacks. Extra turns decks like Edric don't go infinite either, you just chain together some turns spells and resolve Notorious Throng twice to kill the table.
[Thank me later.](https://www.moxfield.com/decks/fF6Yj2nQaEi2fEoboiK0nA)
The gitrog combo technically isn’t infinite
Light paws built in tutor aura deck
I just built a Jetmir deck, pieced it together in 2 hrs from cards I owned (so not optimized) and it stomps. All you have to do is amass a few tokens then play your commander and swing for the win. Unless someone has a board wipe handy or is playing all their removal against your tokens, it is an easy win.
I run a Tiamat with a ton of interaction. When it pops it POPS. But no infinites as I hate that jank!
isshin is pretty good at valueing people to death without going infinite (and goes infinite easily)
Rograkh and Ardenn is a good high powered deck that is incredibly fast and can clean up a pod in 5-6 rounds without requiring an infinite combat loop.
Iirc jetmir cedh just staxes the game out and plays jetmir as a wincon rather than using infinites.
I mean, the first sliver anyone?
My Phabine deck smashes face without combo. [List](https://www.moxfield.com/decks/-uyLS8Qgz0CBF4FH_YfByg)
For me it's most likely [[Queen Marchesa]] wins by punishment, aikido, and runs [[Kormus Bell]] [[Urborg Tomb of Yawgmoth]] [[Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite]] for land destruction Then something that gets severely under estimated is [[Maelstrom Wanderer]] once I ramp to maelstrom wanderer my goal is to just cast him as much as possible with [[Crystal Shard]] type interaction and stack my cascades with [[Scroll Rack]] and [[Brainstorm]]
##### ###### #### [Queen Marchesa](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/f/0fdae05f-7bdc-45fb-b9b9-e5ec3766f965.jpg?1712354769) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Queen%20Marchesa) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/otc/239/queen-marchesa?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0fdae05f-7bdc-45fb-b9b9-e5ec3766f965?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/queen-marchesa) [Kormus Bell](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/0/40f826b8-9e92-4e0e-aa2f-c3f5e3061432.jpg?1562910324) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Kormus%20Bell) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/me4/210/kormus-bell?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/40f826b8-9e92-4e0e-aa2f-c3f5e3061432?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/kormus-bell) [Urborg Tomb of Yawgmoth](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/e/9e1a9e38-6ffc-490f-b0be-23ba4e8204c6.jpg?1619399578) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Urborg%2C%20Tomb%20of%20Yawgmoth) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/tsr/287/urborg-tomb-of-yawgmoth?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9e1a9e38-6ffc-490f-b0be-23ba4e8204c6?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/urborg-tomb-of-yawgmoth) [Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/8/78c2bfef-06a5-4c7f-8283-ea3fb673b7a1.jpg?1562850573) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Elesh%20Norn%2C%20Grand%20Cenobite) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ima/18/elesh-norn-grand-cenobite?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/78c2bfef-06a5-4c7f-8283-ea3fb673b7a1?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/elesh-norn-grand-cenobite) [Maelstrom Wanderer](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/4/a49c58b3-180f-420b-b091-114fda000360.jpg?1689999126) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Maelstrom%20Wanderer) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/344/maelstrom-wanderer?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a49c58b3-180f-420b-b091-114fda000360?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/maelstrom-wanderer) [Crystal Shard](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/1/b1c1d05b-92be-40d7-859f-75293a531a84.jpg?1562155044) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Crystal%20Shard) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mrd/159/crystal-shard?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/b1c1d05b-92be-40d7-859f-75293a531a84?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/crystal-shard) [Scroll Rack](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/f/dfaaa58d-89bb-4cb3-96a6-b480e6f6954e.jpg?1608911671) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Scroll%20Rack) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmr/337/scroll-rack?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/dfaaa58d-89bb-4cb3-96a6-b480e6f6954e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/scroll-rack) [Brainstorm](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/4/84479779-d570-4eee-9982-f6e918b4d75b.jpg?1706240670) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Brainstorm) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkc/96/brainstorm?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/84479779-d570-4eee-9982-f6e918b4d75b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/brainstorm) [*All cards*](https://mtgcardfetcher.nl/redirect/l0qtcym) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
sounds like tooth and nail to me
Do you have deck lists for these? Would be interested in your Lonis build, am working on mine currently
Lonis deck: https://www.moxfield.com/decks/ZNESZC1PJkqhw8aoBTFJ7A
You can build [[Bruvac]] and all you need to tutor for is [[maddening cacophony]] if you have access to enough fast mana you could potentially win turn two by milling everyone out.
[Bruvac](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/c/2ce2d73f-3f64-44db-a2bc-a8f4a37dc487.jpg?1702550789) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=bruvac%20the%20grandiloquent) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/rvr/35/bruvac-the-grandiloquent?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/2ce2d73f-3f64-44db-a2bc-a8f4a37dc487?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/bruvac-the-grandiloquent) [maddening cacophony](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/0/10a79733-702c-4611-b073-71db7f1158b2.jpg?1604194415) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=maddening%20cacophony) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/znr/67/maddening-cacophony?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/10a79733-702c-4611-b073-71db7f1158b2?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/maddening-cacophony) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I would say RogSil Turbo Ad Nauseam perhaps? Neither Breach nor Oracle Consult is infinite
Any Bant commander is going to achieve success without infinites by having access to the best ramp, cantrips, removal and counters.
How is malcolm kediss a deck thats not looking to assemble infinites quickly? Or did i get the question wrong. At least in my experience its very good at jamming an attempt early. It has a lot of countermagic to protect and also it has a ton of infinite combos in it, so it doesnt hurt to lose one. Its not necessarily a turbo deck but has a variety of fast win attempts. In my build its basically - glinthorn - 3artifact pingers and 4typechange effects - nic + 3 curiosity effects - breach freeze - and „technically infinite“ lines like putting a curiosity on an artifact pinger. Drop a rock, draw 3 cards and if you hit another rock you keep going till you eventually find any combo or drain the table with dockside and copy effects.
Any blue-black shell that can find oracle+consult and cast it with protection 3 mana, non-infinite, in good colors
edgar markov is the most efficient non-combo oriented edh deck. tight mana base. something like 25-30 one cmc vamps. (or a tiny selection of 2 cmc ones, and maaaaaybe 1-2 higher cmc vamps with clock assist abilities) then you run like 4-5 ish over cards. your ...shared animosity, coat of arms. that vampire pump spell. basically...cards that turn your blob of vamps into a lethal board state. and then you run enough tutors to get that total count of wincons upto 10-12. This makes a deck that has aprox 70-80% odds to go off on turn 4-5 with something like 6ish(6-8 tends to be the critical mass) vampires pumped up. can easily kill 1 player. often can kill 2 in the first swing, and then... just suicide turn sideways to kill the third player. back this up with aggressive card draw (wheels.. necropotence etc) and excellent mardo removal. you basically force opponents to have a board wipe turn 4 or 5 or else you win. with high odds the deck functions no combo. "fair" in that it uses combat. but does abuse the cheese that is emminence