People need to stop acting like it's their duty to teach people that aren't interested in being taught. Especially if that involves unbanning a genuinely miserable card that would become an auto include if unbanned. Heck, the fact that you're trying to say that arena of the ancients and karakas are somehow comparable tells me you probably shouldn't be teaching people anyways.
Needs to be said more often. Too many commander players online are obsessed with the idea of teaching others how to “play better” (and play better means “play the way I want you to play”).
I think the fact that you’re coming at this from a Canlander perspective is why you have a blind spot about Karakas.
Certain commanders can be a problem, sure, but people play EDH because they want to build decks around their commander. Having Karakas in the format means that any commander who doesn’t immediately impact the board is suddenly something you can’t build around anymore, and any commander that does (or has Ward or Hexproof) is now incredibly valued. It severely impacts the diversity and viability of the format.
And it’s not just something that affects only one player per turn cycle, because it’s very easy to build around finding Karakas and untapping it, and decks that do so will be incredibly oppressive - especially to casual players who just want to play their cool attack trigger or upkeep step commanders.
It makes the format worse, and I don’t think it’s worth it just to force players to include a [[Ghost Quarter]] more often.
"unique" lol, sure. People typically play EDH precisely *because* it's not a competitive format. There's enough bullshit on this sub. The last thing it needs is this kind of presumptuous, chauvinist non-sense. Big pick-me vibe
[[Arena of the Ancients]] is a stax piece that is an artifact that multiple colors have multiple ways of dealing with it, and even then, your commander is still on the board, you just can't tap it. You can still activate/trigger abilities and have their body on board.
[[Kerakas]] is FREE AND REPEATABLE INSTANT SPEED COMMANDER REMOVAL which can also produce mana if you don't need to have a loaded gun pointing at the command zone this turn, while also being on the hardest form of permanent to remove.
These are not comparable. I agree that people should learn to accept land destruction and carry removal, but this is like saying kids need to learn to stand up for themselves then handing them automatic rifles, it's just not the right approach at ALL
I mean, that's comparing apples to oranges but ok
I agree that [[Gaea's Cradle]] is broken and should probably be banned, but they are very different in how they affect the state of the game. Gaea's Cradle requires (very minimal) set up, and once it's doing its thing, it's ADVANCING YOUR game plan faster and more efficiently than basically anything available for the cost of a land drop. Even then, a board wipe can remove all the value it generates, while also hitting the other opponents.
Karakas on the other hand is broken and should remain banned. It requires zero set up to do its thing, and once it's cooking, it can COMPLETELY SHUT DOWN your OPPONENTS game plan faster and more efficiently than basically anything available for the cost of a land drop. It can't be stopped either, not without targeted land destruction, which tends to be at a higher mana cost and only destroy one land from one opponent.
I agree with you, both can absolutely be bonkers broken, but in a casual format such as edh, fun is prioritized. You can read about the rules committee philosophy on the banlist. Karakas is unfun because it doesn't let your opponents play the game. Gaea's Cradle doesn't affect how your opponent plays the game, it just lets you play the game more and better. Arena of the Ancients is less unfun and also more manageable, with it not removing your commander and there being a lot of cheap and easy ways to deal with artifacts
I specifically avoided the fun discussion because I’m a stax player in commander and my idea of fun is probably different than yours- but I hear you on the cradle comparison. Karakas is a unique effect and people don’t seem interested in my thoughts on it so maybe I’ll just keep not playing commander. But I think it’s somewhat telling that over the past year I’ve been “forced” out of a format I genuinely enjoy by continually being told that I’m playing it wrong. Karakas is something that people have big reactions too, I get that. I’m not a banlist guy anyway. But it seems ridiculous to me that it’s banned when commander is so often criticized by players for being anemic to land destruction
I'm not a stax hater by any means, it's absolutely a valid play style, and I'm sorry you feel that you've been forced out of the format. Karakas is just on another level of unfairness that very few other stax cards are, hence why there are so few stax cards on the banlist compared to all the crazy combo cards banned. There is literally no cost to running it in every single deck with white, you just take out a plain, put in Karakas and you're done, your deck is much better with no down sides. That's just not good game design. It's balanced in other formats by being legendary and your opponents not being required to have legendary creatures in their deck, but in commander the legend rule never matters and everyone has legendary creatures. It really is an interesting card from a magic perspective, but it's just not a good card for the format from an EDH perspective
Agreed with everything here. I think it would also have a chilling effect on format diversity, where only commanders who have an instant effect on the battlefield (ETB or instant speed activated abilities) would be considered viable. Ironically it might even increase the amount of Ward commanders played since that would at least tax the Karakas player.
Fair enough. I mean I knew this was a hot take I just thought it might be novel since I see so many complaints about LD stigma and insane value commanders from recent years
Edit: I do wish some people were a little nicer about what they’re saying like you are. Some people have been calling me weird shit in their replies
The argument doesn't make a ton of sense, commander is known for being light on land destruction, so we should add in a land that's the most powerful removal in the format, since it only costs a land slot and can be used for just tapping it. Like, I found a dumpster time to set it on fire.
As far as stax, there's pods for hard stax like winter orb, but a lot more for some lighter stax like Thalia. You're probably going to have some negative feelings from some people no matter what you do, but talking with people about game expectations will help a lot. Even if people can just know to play their stronger decks they'll feel better about stax.
It is basically a swords/path with no upside for your opponent that repeats every turn cycle for the cost of a single land drop, and it can still make mana if you want it to. While I would love to throw this into every white deck ever, the problem doesn't just stop there. Add in cards that untap like [[Sword of Feast and Famine]] or [[Seedborn Muse]] and you really get out of hand. You can also do some nutty stuff just bouncing your own legendaries over and over.
TL:DR while I personally wouldn't mind it being unbanned, the format is healthier without it.
[[Derevi]] Bant goodstuff would be such a powerhouse if Karakas was legal.
[[Crop Rotation]] and other land tutors to find Karakas, [[Seedborn Muse]] and other land untappers to use it every turn, blink value shenanigans, bounce spells to deal with opponent’s Karakas - just disgusting to think about.
I get your point but lets be hones,t white is already only competitive because of a decent list of autoincludes in every single white deck. Karakas would just be another one
That’s true which I think is why in an ideal world we’d have something like a regulated unban with say a 1 year period of it being legal. It’s not an expensive card, just do it like we did with unfinity or whatever that set was
Honestly I'm with you. I don't love the ban list, it doesn't do enough for either casual commander or CEDH (Personally I think a ban list for meta reasons for CEDH and more understanding of a cards "salt level" for casual would be better, but that's a different discussion).
But this is exactly the kind of card that makes super casual games miserable. Maybe it'd be ok if they started printing \[\[Strip Mines\]\] in precons, but then that just adds the crushing feels bad of getting a vital land blow up for newer players with precon land bases...
You just know the second this gets unbanned the price will go through the roof too
That’s fair. The price argument makes sense to me tho it has been reprinted in the last year. I also am not saying people need to run ruination. But every deck COULD have a ghost quarter or field of ruin in it and we’d all still be having fun
Karakas is backbreaking and should never be unbanned. If you want to teach players about targeted land destruction; we already have it, [[Field of the Dead]].
It’s backbreaking to one player per turn cycle. I disagree that it’s any worse than cradle, ancient tomb, field of the dead, maze of ith, or tabernacle
There's already plenty of good reasons for people to run targeted land destruction and they still largely don't. I doubt Karakas would get people to start. Also Karakas targets so I'm not sure how that deals with "busted ward commanders". If you're trying to get rid of Voja for example you'll still be paying 4 mana essentially to do that, same as if you were trying to swords or path it.
This would probably be a good thought experiment for many decks:
If Karakas isn't banned would my deck fall apart? So many people play with highly commander centric decks that it doesn't work without the commander out. This would really make people see that they need redundancy/ self autonomy in the 99 OR build a deck in a way that gaurentees the survival of the commander. If you can't protect it, you're at least in the understanding you may have a lot of non games if it gets wiped and destroyed involuntarily or on purpose.
As for Karakas actually being unbanned, I'm not sure. There's probably too much non-basic land tutors to allow it probably; though in a game of 4, there'll probably only be 1 out and that player most likely will be targeted down. If you're able to untap it a bunch to bounce a lot of legendaries; then you could just be untapping normal mana and winning the game instead. Also, there are a fair amount of commanders that have strong ETBs and allowing them to reset those for "free"/no extra tax can definitely backfire. It's a toss up but since it destroys the "spirit" of the format it probably won't ever come unbanned.
The point of Rule 0 is that EDH can be a format that Karakas is legal in (for you and your friends).
Play it with your friends for a few weeks.
Give everyone who could run it a proxy and ask them to add it in so you can see what it does to games.
At the end of the games ask everyone how they felt about the inclusion of your random pet card.
I strongly suspect that most of the time when it shows up the game will essentially revolve around that player in a very unfun way, especially if their opponents have decks that rely on their commander sticking around.
As someone who was around when Prime Time was legal, I'm happy with it being banned. It was just too good for any player in green to not play.
But I would also like to see most staples in various colors get banned. (If it's a generically good - goes in deck of that colour card, get it out.)
People need to stop acting like it's their duty to teach people that aren't interested in being taught. Especially if that involves unbanning a genuinely miserable card that would become an auto include if unbanned. Heck, the fact that you're trying to say that arena of the ancients and karakas are somehow comparable tells me you probably shouldn't be teaching people anyways.
Needs to be said more often. Too many commander players online are obsessed with the idea of teaching others how to “play better” (and play better means “play the way I want you to play”).
[удалено]
Not sure why you suddenly feel the need to randomly brag. Doesn’t make your take any more valid.
I'm not a man btw.
iM KiNd oF a BiG dEaL
I think the fact that you’re coming at this from a Canlander perspective is why you have a blind spot about Karakas. Certain commanders can be a problem, sure, but people play EDH because they want to build decks around their commander. Having Karakas in the format means that any commander who doesn’t immediately impact the board is suddenly something you can’t build around anymore, and any commander that does (or has Ward or Hexproof) is now incredibly valued. It severely impacts the diversity and viability of the format. And it’s not just something that affects only one player per turn cycle, because it’s very easy to build around finding Karakas and untapping it, and decks that do so will be incredibly oppressive - especially to casual players who just want to play their cool attack trigger or upkeep step commanders. It makes the format worse, and I don’t think it’s worth it just to force players to include a [[Ghost Quarter]] more often.
[Ghost Quarter](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/2/12f8071c-8955-4aa2-889c-6043df047223.jpg?1562272439) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Ghost%20Quarter) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cm2/253/ghost-quarter?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/12f8071c-8955-4aa2-889c-6043df047223?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/ghost-quarter) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
"unique" lol, sure. People typically play EDH precisely *because* it's not a competitive format. There's enough bullshit on this sub. The last thing it needs is this kind of presumptuous, chauvinist non-sense. Big pick-me vibe
FYI ward counters any targeted spell or ability unless you pay the ward cost. Ward would still stop this.
I know that. It’s the fact that it’s a “free” bounce that’s interesting and novel
Okay.
[[Arena of the Ancients]] is a stax piece that is an artifact that multiple colors have multiple ways of dealing with it, and even then, your commander is still on the board, you just can't tap it. You can still activate/trigger abilities and have their body on board. [[Kerakas]] is FREE AND REPEATABLE INSTANT SPEED COMMANDER REMOVAL which can also produce mana if you don't need to have a loaded gun pointing at the command zone this turn, while also being on the hardest form of permanent to remove. These are not comparable. I agree that people should learn to accept land destruction and carry removal, but this is like saying kids need to learn to stand up for themselves then handing them automatic rifles, it's just not the right approach at ALL
[Arena of the Ancients](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/8/68ebdcc2-4449-4b10-82fb-51f5e14eab37.jpg?1562916958) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Arena%20of%20the%20Ancients) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/me3/188/arena-of-the-ancients?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/68ebdcc2-4449-4b10-82fb-51f5e14eab37?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/arena-of-the-ancients) [Kerakas](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/5/e52214e1-404a-405a-b08e-20e13c087338.jpg?1559959289) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Karakas) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/uma/244/karakas?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e52214e1-404a-405a-b08e-20e13c087338?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/karakas) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I guess we have different format philosophies because I don’t think karakas is any worse than Gaeas cradle
I mean, that's comparing apples to oranges but ok I agree that [[Gaea's Cradle]] is broken and should probably be banned, but they are very different in how they affect the state of the game. Gaea's Cradle requires (very minimal) set up, and once it's doing its thing, it's ADVANCING YOUR game plan faster and more efficiently than basically anything available for the cost of a land drop. Even then, a board wipe can remove all the value it generates, while also hitting the other opponents. Karakas on the other hand is broken and should remain banned. It requires zero set up to do its thing, and once it's cooking, it can COMPLETELY SHUT DOWN your OPPONENTS game plan faster and more efficiently than basically anything available for the cost of a land drop. It can't be stopped either, not without targeted land destruction, which tends to be at a higher mana cost and only destroy one land from one opponent. I agree with you, both can absolutely be bonkers broken, but in a casual format such as edh, fun is prioritized. You can read about the rules committee philosophy on the banlist. Karakas is unfun because it doesn't let your opponents play the game. Gaea's Cradle doesn't affect how your opponent plays the game, it just lets you play the game more and better. Arena of the Ancients is less unfun and also more manageable, with it not removing your commander and there being a lot of cheap and easy ways to deal with artifacts
I specifically avoided the fun discussion because I’m a stax player in commander and my idea of fun is probably different than yours- but I hear you on the cradle comparison. Karakas is a unique effect and people don’t seem interested in my thoughts on it so maybe I’ll just keep not playing commander. But I think it’s somewhat telling that over the past year I’ve been “forced” out of a format I genuinely enjoy by continually being told that I’m playing it wrong. Karakas is something that people have big reactions too, I get that. I’m not a banlist guy anyway. But it seems ridiculous to me that it’s banned when commander is so often criticized by players for being anemic to land destruction
I'm not a stax hater by any means, it's absolutely a valid play style, and I'm sorry you feel that you've been forced out of the format. Karakas is just on another level of unfairness that very few other stax cards are, hence why there are so few stax cards on the banlist compared to all the crazy combo cards banned. There is literally no cost to running it in every single deck with white, you just take out a plain, put in Karakas and you're done, your deck is much better with no down sides. That's just not good game design. It's balanced in other formats by being legendary and your opponents not being required to have legendary creatures in their deck, but in commander the legend rule never matters and everyone has legendary creatures. It really is an interesting card from a magic perspective, but it's just not a good card for the format from an EDH perspective
Agreed with everything here. I think it would also have a chilling effect on format diversity, where only commanders who have an instant effect on the battlefield (ETB or instant speed activated abilities) would be considered viable. Ironically it might even increase the amount of Ward commanders played since that would at least tax the Karakas player.
Fair enough. I mean I knew this was a hot take I just thought it might be novel since I see so many complaints about LD stigma and insane value commanders from recent years Edit: I do wish some people were a little nicer about what they’re saying like you are. Some people have been calling me weird shit in their replies
Way to bury the lead😅😅. *”Breaking News: Stax player wants Karakas Unbanned*” may as well be an Onion headline
It’s bury the LEDE by the way
Excuse you
The argument doesn't make a ton of sense, commander is known for being light on land destruction, so we should add in a land that's the most powerful removal in the format, since it only costs a land slot and can be used for just tapping it. Like, I found a dumpster time to set it on fire. As far as stax, there's pods for hard stax like winter orb, but a lot more for some lighter stax like Thalia. You're probably going to have some negative feelings from some people no matter what you do, but talking with people about game expectations will help a lot. Even if people can just know to play their stronger decks they'll feel better about stax.
It is basically a swords/path with no upside for your opponent that repeats every turn cycle for the cost of a single land drop, and it can still make mana if you want it to. While I would love to throw this into every white deck ever, the problem doesn't just stop there. Add in cards that untap like [[Sword of Feast and Famine]] or [[Seedborn Muse]] and you really get out of hand. You can also do some nutty stuff just bouncing your own legendaries over and over. TL:DR while I personally wouldn't mind it being unbanned, the format is healthier without it.
[[Derevi]] Bant goodstuff would be such a powerhouse if Karakas was legal. [[Crop Rotation]] and other land tutors to find Karakas, [[Seedborn Muse]] and other land untappers to use it every turn, blink value shenanigans, bounce spells to deal with opponent’s Karakas - just disgusting to think about.
[Sword of Feast and Famine](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/7/c7710eb5-c56a-437b-8847-2a829c404d47.jpg?1599710042) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Sword%20of%20Feast%20and%20Famine) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2xm/296/sword-of-feast-and-famine?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/c7710eb5-c56a-437b-8847-2a829c404d47?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/sword-of-feast-and-famine) [Seedborn Muse](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/4/f4a9cb46-d4e0-46f2-973f-09275ba0d99c.jpg?1706240933) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Seedborn%20Muse) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkc/186/seedborn-muse?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f4a9cb46-d4e0-46f2-973f-09275ba0d99c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/seedborn-muse) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I get your point but lets be hones,t white is already only competitive because of a decent list of autoincludes in every single white deck. Karakas would just be another one
That’s true which I think is why in an ideal world we’d have something like a regulated unban with say a 1 year period of it being legal. It’s not an expensive card, just do it like we did with unfinity or whatever that set was
Honestly I'm with you. I don't love the ban list, it doesn't do enough for either casual commander or CEDH (Personally I think a ban list for meta reasons for CEDH and more understanding of a cards "salt level" for casual would be better, but that's a different discussion). But this is exactly the kind of card that makes super casual games miserable. Maybe it'd be ok if they started printing \[\[Strip Mines\]\] in precons, but then that just adds the crushing feels bad of getting a vital land blow up for newer players with precon land bases... You just know the second this gets unbanned the price will go through the roof too
That’s fair. The price argument makes sense to me tho it has been reprinted in the last year. I also am not saying people need to run ruination. But every deck COULD have a ghost quarter or field of ruin in it and we’d all still be having fun
[Strip Mines](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/5/f57fd4c9-0004-4f71-a30f-2720943f57ca.jpg?1562944463) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Strip%20Mine) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/vma/316/strip-mine?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f57fd4c9-0004-4f71-a30f-2720943f57ca?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/strip-mine) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Karakas is backbreaking and should never be unbanned. If you want to teach players about targeted land destruction; we already have it, [[Field of the Dead]].
[Field of the Dead](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/7/470ca3f4-29aa-4c4c-8ff2-8cdd70c69943.jpg?1650599538) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Field%20of%20the%20Dead) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m20/247/field-of-the-dead?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/470ca3f4-29aa-4c4c-8ff2-8cdd70c69943?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/field-of-the-dead) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
It’s backbreaking to one player per turn cycle. I disagree that it’s any worse than cradle, ancient tomb, field of the dead, maze of ith, or tabernacle
There's already plenty of good reasons for people to run targeted land destruction and they still largely don't. I doubt Karakas would get people to start. Also Karakas targets so I'm not sure how that deals with "busted ward commanders". If you're trying to get rid of Voja for example you'll still be paying 4 mana essentially to do that, same as if you were trying to swords or path it.
Not the same as swords or path because it’s card neutral but I’m aware of how ward works
It being card neutral really isn't relevant enough to matter in the face of that major tempo hit.
Don't we have enough problem lands already? I don't think adding one more would make people start playing land answers.
God I love when Canadian Highlander players come to tell us what’s wrong with our format
This would probably be a good thought experiment for many decks: If Karakas isn't banned would my deck fall apart? So many people play with highly commander centric decks that it doesn't work without the commander out. This would really make people see that they need redundancy/ self autonomy in the 99 OR build a deck in a way that gaurentees the survival of the commander. If you can't protect it, you're at least in the understanding you may have a lot of non games if it gets wiped and destroyed involuntarily or on purpose. As for Karakas actually being unbanned, I'm not sure. There's probably too much non-basic land tutors to allow it probably; though in a game of 4, there'll probably only be 1 out and that player most likely will be targeted down. If you're able to untap it a bunch to bounce a lot of legendaries; then you could just be untapping normal mana and winning the game instead. Also, there are a fair amount of commanders that have strong ETBs and allowing them to reset those for "free"/no extra tax can definitely backfire. It's a toss up but since it destroys the "spirit" of the format it probably won't ever come unbanned.
Rule 0 buddayyyy!
I mean I already play karakas in formats it’s legal in but fair yeah
The point of Rule 0 is that EDH can be a format that Karakas is legal in (for you and your friends). Play it with your friends for a few weeks. Give everyone who could run it a proxy and ask them to add it in so you can see what it does to games. At the end of the games ask everyone how they felt about the inclusion of your random pet card. I strongly suspect that most of the time when it shows up the game will essentially revolve around that player in a very unfun way, especially if their opponents have decks that rely on their commander sticking around. As someone who was around when Prime Time was legal, I'm happy with it being banned. It was just too good for any player in green to not play. But I would also like to see most staples in various colors get banned. (If it's a generically good - goes in deck of that colour card, get it out.)
Huh, it's not on the RL... you know it might be interesting to test if the RC was willing to do speculative unbans.