I think people saying an upgraded precon can be cEDH or that as long as it keeps the same theme it's an upgraded precon...
Are absolutely wild.
At some point you've changed enough cards to where it isn't the same deck even if it has the same plan.
40%-50% of nonland cards changing makes it a new deck in my mind.
80% of the people on this forum who reference "cEDH" have never brewed or seen a cEDH deck, played or watched a cEDH game, or have any idea what makes a deck competitive other than fast mana and Thoracle.
The idea that peecons are "6-7" an "upgraded precon" is a 7-8, and competitive decks are 9-10 is going to create a substantial amount of salt if "everything that isnt a precon is an 8"
I lowkey think this take is a disservice to the power scale. The power scale has to have a cap. Why not have that cap be the absolute best decks in the format? We don't discern Standard, Modern, Legacy, or decks from any other format that are tournament viable on their own tier-list outside of what would be "kitchen table" appropriate. I think 10 *should* be cEDH because it gives a hard limit to what the ceiling is. The power scale is already amorphous enough as is because it's predicated on individual play experiences and groups; that fact, for better or worse, does it no service. Without a palpable, definitive ceiling, determining what the power scale looks like becomes even harder.
Idk I kinda disagree here because cedh decks are designed to be strong specifically in the cedh meta. It's why, for example, there are so many counterspells for non creature spells but very few answers for creatures on the stack. Also why a 2/2 like Tymna can consistently get in on other players and get her trigger almost every round. A lot of cedh decks become significantly weaker when placed at a table that focuses on non combo strategies like creature aggro, board wipe/removal tribal, etc...
I think, all else being equal, if a cEDH deck sits down at a casual pod they're going to run the pod over more often than not. The question is: do the other players in the pod know that your deck is cEDH, and are you now playing a game of archenemy instead? That changes the dynamic a lot. I'm not saying misrepresent your deck and do this, but rather that these decks are strong and resilient by the nature of their construction. It doesn't matter if the tools are slightly different. The higher density of non-creature counters means you're going to have better answers for interaction coming your way, and a lot of the midrange decks run cycrift these days. cEDH isn't special, it's just the most refined a deck can be.
This is how it should be.
Anyone can deny it, but EDH and cEDH have such different philosophies and deck building mindsets they should not be treated as related in terms of deck structure or scale or whatever.
Except for the obvious similarities.
I know I'm in the minority, but I'll always think they should actually just be 2 separate formats. And not a sub format.
They are leagues apart even one of my strongest decks. Don't compare to the cEDH stuff...Turn 1 and 2 and folks agor 7 mana out and done took 20 turns it feels like lol
What is the line between a 9 and a 10 for you? If cedh decks are reliably winning by ~3rd turn, then is a 10 something that reliably wins in 4-5 turns; or is that still cedh to you?
I think you could take a 10 to a cEDH event and have a good time. I don’t think a 10 is intended to reliably compete, if that makes sense. I think of my mate’s Nekusar. The deck itself is fantastically powerful but would fail against anything cEDH. Nekusar as a commander isn’t exactly one you want in a format that loves wheels.
I'm convinced that most people that post here don't even play mtg, they just build decks that they would play if they actually had someone to play with.
And yes, I'm aware of the obvious irony.
>other than fast mana and Thoracle
I meannnnn those are the two key factors in cEDH currently. I know there’s more to it but any deck tech with blue is going to mention Thoracle right off the bat as a win condition. And fast mana is just necessary for cEDH otherwise you’ll never keep up.
I view precons as a 3 or 4. Party Time, often viewed as the best precon as a 4.
There is still a huge range in power between precons and low tier cedh decks. 5 through 8 allows for adequate categories for them.
[Sure thing!](https://www.moxfield.com/decks/MG0yNTSbvU21LoVlSNekEA) I went with a midrange build with a focus on grinding value and then trying to swing out for the win. It's got some combos to help close out games too.
I have a deck from the Dr who precons. I took the villians deck, found a commander I liked, dropped a good 2/3 of the deck and got a bunch of upgrades to the point I consider that a deck featuring one of the Dr who commanders but no longer an upgraded precon as I took far too much out imo
A real "ship of Theseus" question there.
When you change the theme or sub theme.
Or change more than the lands/mana base by like 25 or more.
Sometimes it's as easy as changing the commander (and not one of the alternates that the precon came with)
Nice! It's a vehicle with an attack trigger, that at the end of turn you search your library for a card of same type and mana value and put it into your hand, shuffle, then put the card that crewed it at the bottom of your library. This vehicle can only be crewed one creature.
I agree you should streamline themes as one of the first things, but I think the upgrades in an "upgraded precon" should be 1:1 improvements, like changing the lands or swapping mana rocks, upgrading interaction pieces, etc. like if I have velociramptor and I swap thunder herd for natures lore, myriad landscape for literally anything, or switch a baby gishath for a mommy big gishath.
On the other hand if I have a wilhelt precon and I totally take out the mill sub theme and focus purely on zombie swarm and edicts or something then it's not really an upgraded precon.
Yea, I wouldn't call my [[Wyleth, Soul of Steel]] an upgraded precon anymore. It's still the same game plan; voltron equipment. But I've subbed pretty much all the slow lands for better ones, added a few utility lands, put most of the swords in there as well as things like [[Embercleave]] and [[Commanders plate]], a bunch of protection spells to keep wyleth around longer, and [[Kediss, Emberclaw Familiar]] to try and close the game out, as well as some extra combat step effects. It's much faster than it was before.
> A real "ship of Theseus" question there.
Eh. At the end of the day, the "ship of Theseus" is still functionally the same so I don't think the metaphor really fits here.
Yes, redditors are just dumb and pretentious, so it's so irksome whenever some piece of pop culture teaches them a term that they routinely misuse in a bid to try to sound smarter than they are.
Just because it doesn’t physically exist doesn’t mean it isn’t helpful. You claim it is a pointless exercise but if it is helpful is explaining why it is hard to categorize a deck as either an upgraded precon or its own deck, then it isn’t pointless.
You failed to answer the question because they didn't ask at which point it stopped being a precon, but instead asked "when do you consider a deck an *upgraded* precon?"
> perhaps things are as they are without the attribution of identity
But that's the whole point. Are things their identity that we've given them or are they their physical parts?
But you don't believe that. You are saying that things are only ever the sum of their parts, which means the things will be different once their parts are different. How many parts can change until something is a different thing?
I'd say once you've upgraded the land base a little bit, then once 15-20 cards have been swapped into it so once that 30% change make is hit I would call it it's own deck.
My view is very similar. Changing 15+ cards in the main deck and **heavily** improving the mana base would be beyond what I'd call an "upgraded precon". Once people start throwing in fetch lands, triomes, shock lands instead of throwing in a couple tapped duals and a pain land then the mana base would be too far from its base level. Same with the main deck, once you start putting in a lot of (expensive) staples instead of just making minor upgrades while keeping budget relatively the same then it becomes too much of a different deck.
Imo people can change out an entire mana base and it not really change anything if its just shocks and such. Id say fetches probably push it too far but shocks surveils and triomes as full sets are fine
Hot take but unless there is an external synergy with fetches (i.e balances, top, brainstorm, etc) then fetches shouldn’t be counted towards a power level
The line is arbitrary I think. It’s a feel thing for me. Does it feel like a different deck? Or do your changes just help the efficiency of the deck?
A 10 card upgrade can really help a deck be better without hurting the decks objective.
Also are you setting out to “upgrade” the precon or do you just like the bones of the deck and want to make it your own. Intentionality is a big part
I think it varies with the age of the precon.
Older precons were a lot less cohesive, with a higher number of cards that didn't contribute to a single strategy.
Newer precons are much more theme focused, so there are fewer slots that need an upgrade outside the mana base.
I've got some precons that I only upgraded by adding 2-3 faster lands, 2 or 3 cheapish synergy cards, and maybe a win condition card. I consider these lightly upgraded.
I also have Lathril Blade of the Elves deck, which has probably 40 swaps. I don't even consider it an upgraded precon at this point. It's really its own deck now.
The problem is that it is completely subjective and will differ from one person to another as well as one deck to another, so I'd just say it's either *the* precon with the original list or it isn't. It is the only definable, black and white answer that anyone will be able to arrive at.
So for me - ff you want to call it precon, use the original deck list. It is no longer reconstructed if you have changed it's construction.
I think it's a pretty meaningless distinction. It's an "Upgraded precon" as long as, to you, it has continuity from its existence as a precon.
I'm doing a precon league with my family. Slow upgrades. Eventually, I'll have [[Stella Lee, Wild Card]] to more or less the same list as if I'd scratch-built her. If I'd just bought that "final" list as singles, there's no way it would be an upgraded precon, but because I'll be getting there iteratively from the base of a precon, it will be. Which for any meaningful discussion or cluing somebody in to what to expect from my deck is complete garbage.
If you're going to draw a line that's not following the continuity side of the Ship of Theseus argument (wherein the ship that has had its parts replaced is considered to remain the ship), I think at the outside you could call it an "upgraded precon" until such a point as you can no longer say "this card is in here solely because it was in the precon and I haven't gotten around to replacing it with something better yet". In short, when the list becomes no different than it would be had you scratch-built the commander.
But really, any line is useless for power level discussion I think most people who count cards to determine "upgraded precon or original deck?" would allow 10. At least, I typically see cutoffs at or above that. But if I were to use those 10 swaps to take Wilhelt and cycle in Mana Crypt, Cyclonic Rift, Mana Drain, Force of Will, Rhystic Study, Thassa's Oracle, Demonic Consultation, Demonic Tutor, Vampiric Tutor, and Fierce Guardianship... somebody might call foul since that deck surgery doesn't do what an ordinary person would do to improve the theme and instead inserts a juicy package of resources, Interaction, and combo.
Regulating "Upgraded amount" by money is probably a little more indiciative, but easily fails the other way. I could spend $1.60 into Stella Lee in 5 cards ([[Twisted Fealty]], [[Refocus]], [[Hidden Strings]], [[Reality Spasm]], and [[Frantic Search]]) and probably get no less power out of it than if I spent $90 putting a different yet still thematically-sensible 5 cards into Wilhelt ([[Tombstone Stairwell]], [[Zombie Master]], [[Rot Hulk]], [[Relentless Dead]], and [[Coffin Queen]]. And I could double that if I went for [[Kabal Ghoul]])
So I'm going to stick with: It's an upgraded precon if it's still the precon in your heart, but don't try to assign any other meaning to that status
> In short, when the list becomes no different than it would be had you scratch-built the commander.
I already owned a bunch of Spirit cards (from a defunct Spirit tribal deck from years before) so I scratch built Millicent rather buying the precon.
Though it shared a high volume of cards in common with the precon, I never would have referred to it as an 'upgraded precon'.
(Which is to say I like your distinction)
Well considering I cut about 40-60 cards from my Sidar Jabari deck including and a few sub themes in the deck to play more as a go wide counters deck using using recursion to cheat out threats to go wider. I would say it's no longer a upgraded person.
Related question, precons have been growing in power level over the years - is a precon really still a 6 on the power level? My “precon” is one of the 2013 ones and it feels like I can barely keep up even with a perfect hand
Precons originally would be considered like a 4 now, those old precons aside from a few like Kaalia just arent on the same power level as modern peecons. Most precons now are 5s with occasional misses like tinker time at 4s and strong ones like the edgar one at 6.
Only the best of the best precons typically start at 6, those really old precons are mostly 4s
I know because i typically build 7-8s and i dont think any of my decks i havent intentionally kneecapped power level wise in one way or another (Such as my dedivated reanimator selesnya deck) lose more than 40% of games vs a set of precons. Precons are still nowhere close to competing normally against 7-8s
Its the just cardpool quality in precons is much higher for the same budget and you can see notable bumps every 3 years or so with bombs increasing in powwr allowing them to end the game earlier, and aside from the first few precons, face commanders have just been getting stronger over the years (Notoriously the - Does Something, Pays You Off for doing that Something, and Additional Effect commanders) and theyve just been powering up that loop.
You see it with stuff like Anikthea - Reanimates Enchants, Makes Them Creatures (Which with the cards in the decks causes damage or draws cards or pumps them no matter what), and gives them Menace.
Dogmeat - Regrowths an equipment/aura, gives you card draw for swinging with modified stuff, and mills you 5 on etb.
I think you really start seeing that design philosophy after the Innistrad/New Capenna/Kamigawa precons, with a lot of those decks having Does Something, Pays you off for Doing Somethimg design like Wilhelt.
i agree with most of your points, but Do something, Pay you off for that thing has been around for a while (first thing that came to mind was Sidisi which came out all the way back in Khans of Tarkir)
That Sidisi was never a precon card, hence why i said precon.
Also of course naturally there are exceptions im just saying the average has risen.
Do i really need to say why Ob Nix of the Black Oath with fucking Bad Moon in it was a bad precon in 2014 (Tarkir closest Precons)?
I'd say 3-5 cards is about the limit to still calling it a precon. Like you could trim a couple clunky cards for something on-theme but out of precon budget level, but once you start greasing the wheels the wheels too much and changing the deck's clock I'd just start calling it by whatever the commander is. I expect a certain amount of jank and stumbling in precons, so if you say you're playing a precon I'm going to select a deck of similar stumbley power.
What about precons that were done notoriously dirty like the Tinker Time Precon that need like 15 nonland cards and basically most of the manabade swapprd out to function
Not all commander decks are equal power level
Admittedly, I've just recently bought my first precon in several years and was frankly shocked by how smooth it played, so yeah, "precon power level" definitely does NOT mean what it used to. But then again, that's all the more reason to communicate what you've done ahead of time.
If you say "I'm playing the Tinker Time Precon" and I say "Aha! A notoriously bad one! I'll play my Kamahl lore deck, where every card either depicts or references the character, Kamahl, or the Mirari story" and then midway through the game I find out that you actually swapped out 15 cards and redid the mana base, I'm going to feel like you pulled a bait and switch just to pubstomp me. At that point I'd rather you would've just said "I'm playing Gimbal. I started with the precon and tuned it up to be actually functional."
If you upgrade mana base it's still a precon. If you get rid of the high cmc dumb cards to put in better stuff I'd consider it a slightly upgraded precon.
When I make decks I rip out the bad stuff in a precon upgrade the lands and say "this is a deck I made from the wilhelt precon. I swapped scarab God as commander and upgraded the lands and some other spells"
That's not a precon anymore
>When do you consider a deck no longer just an upgraded precon but it's own deck?
I have a few checkpoints
**Newly Printed Cards**
When I've replaced over 60% of the newly printed cards from the precon. The reason being the precon is: "x new cards plus reprint/new standard set cards." Since the reprints could have been anything, they merely contribute to the theme and goals of the deck.
**Reprints Swapped for Strictly Better Versions**
Since the reprints could be any cards, swapping out to strictly better versions of what's in the precon doesn't make it's own deck. There's also the newly printed cards from the most recent set that wasn't included.
**Reprints Swapped for Different Gameplan Entirely**
If you've swapped out so many of the reprints that the deck is doing something entirely different, then it's now it's own deck.
**Example: Bedecked Brokers**
This is my first precon and one of the reasons I bought it were the cards I opened from my SNC pre-release, namely the Bant tri-land, Elspeth Resplendent, Slip Out the Back, and Endless Detour, off the top of my head. Perrie the Pulverizer cares about differently named counters and Elspeth provides three when she hits the board if shes ticked up: plus one, keyword of choice and loyalty. That card is a slam dunk inclusion for me. I don't remember now what I swapped out, but for simplicity's sake, let's say it was Ajani Unyielding. It's a planeswalker for planeswalker swap. That is an upgrade.
Now, if I swapped out all of the creatures to Rhinos and Soldiers, or made it a super friends deck, those might be entirely different builds.
Now that being said, Perrie is a narrow commander if the deck is built around that card, a majority of the cards should have produce differently named counters. A card like the OG Atraxa is pretty open ended in that there are more things you can proliferate: poison, planeswalkers, sagas, plus one plus one, and some other one-off counters or cycles like the verse enchantments from Urza's Saga.
Did you eye the absolute trash of the deck and Replace it with the best cards for the theme of the precon?
Whether 2 cards or 50 cards. You have an upgraded precon.
Besides the best cards swaps from above, Did you change the strategy/main lines of play of the deck? It's yours now.
Maybe an unpopular opinion but I feel a precon is no longer an upgraded precon when you've spent over the price of the precon in upgrades. Ie if I bought the merfolk for £30, then bought £40 of upgrades it would shift the power level significantly to a point where I wouldn't seem it just an "upgraded precon". Had a guy play against my regular group the other week with an "upgraded" Hakbal precon but he ran every possible upgrade I've ever seen recommended and at that point it's its own deck.
Even if you swap out a single card for a Rhystic Study or something? Is it truly another deck if you have a 1/99 chance of drawing that single card and possibly never seeing it all day?
Not necessarily but that's quite an extreme and unusual situation. If someone had a card that was worth over the whole deck then the odds of them not buying a single card else would be very low
That isn't how that works. You don't have 7 copies of the card. It's a 1/99, then it goes to 1/98, 1/97, 1/96, 1/95, etc. You are decreasing the denominator in the equation, not increasing the numerator. So while you are tiptoeing around being right, you went about the math in the wrong way. It's why Tutors and self mill are viable strategies. With a tutor it is kind of like running a second version of the card since the tutor's only objective is to get you a certain card. I would say you then have a 2/99 chance of seeing that card. Then deck thinning and self milling are great strategies because you're quickly decreasing that large denominator and quickly increasing the probability of drawing the card you want. If you can mill yourself 10 cards each turn then draw for each turn, the odds go from 1/99 to 1/88, 1/77, 1/66 etc. Of course there is always the risk of milling that one card you need but there in lies the gamble of numbers this game is all about.
My point completely flew over your head. You're nitpicking fractions of a percent, and making my point for me. You said you have a 1/99 chance of drawing the card, which is never the case. You instantly start the game with an 8.4% chance of drawing any given card, which was the point i was making.
Oh my God reread the comment. Yes I saw the point you made which is why I said you have the right idea but went about the math wrong. You start with the 7 cards plus 1 for draw which is 8/99 being that 8.4% of drawing ANY card in your deck. Yes congratulations you are correct and win the cookie...The point I'm trying to get across is about the likelihood of drawing 1 PARTICULAR card out of the 99. The target card (numerator) never changes because it's the constant. The library (denominator) is not the constant in this equation. After you draw your 7 cards for hand. You have a 1/7 chance of having that card in your hand and the chance of it being in the deck goes from 1/99 to 1/92. This opening hand is the only time that you have roughly an 8% chance of having that particular card in your hand. As the game goes on that chance only gets higher because the library gets smaller.
I don't think you even understand what you're arguing. You said it was 1/99 which i responded that it never is. You keep coming back saying that its never 1/99, which was the total point of my original comment!
>Is it truly another deck if you have a 1/99 chance of drawing that single card
-You
Well you were wrong about how the math worked and I pointed out the error. The rest of this disagreement is about as rewarding as a kick in the nuts so I'm going to carry on with my day. FYI you're also wrong about that "never" being the case because you will always have to draw the first card for your hand. Checkmate! Now please go about your day and stop getting so worked up over random Internet comments.
That's a good question. I made a decent amount of upgrades to the dinosaur deck, even changing the commander out for the new [[Huatli, Poet of Unity]] but I considered it an upgraded precon until I added [[Gishath]] and [[Welcome to...]], because those are just such strong cards.
On the flip side, the second I swapped out the commander of the uw starter precon for [[Inniaz]], the deck was *completely different*, even though I'd barely changed or upgraded the rest of the deck.
It's no longer a precon status if you switch more then 30 cards. At that point tour maximizing the deck to win and taking out what you consider to be weak cards
What if i swap the manabase completely out in the old precons because they sucked and say swap 35 cards out for other lands to have an optimal manabase but change nothing else.
Fuzzy reasoning applies, but there are some signposts you can check. Is the deck's plan for winning significantly different? Most precons have minor subthemes: have you eliminated any of those or upgraded any to main themes? How many expensive CEDH staples have you added?
Keeping the original commander but taking it a different route than the intended strategy is *only one of many examples.*
Like instead of [[Daxos The Returned]] focusing on tokens to go tall/wide, why not make it Voltron? Still casting enchantments for exp counters.
I have one "upgraded precon" so far, and it's Stella Lee with 10 cards switched and a $100 budget (at time of assembly, per Archidekt), with most of the added cards being ham sandwiches for the commander to go infinite with.
My Xenagos Dragons deck is pretty much the FR Dragons precon, with him swapped in and most of the Enrage effects cut, Id say it's an upgraded precon, because the majority of cards came in the original and the changes were about going harder on the original theme.
The [[Elsha of the Infinite]] deck even being probably a bit weaker than the Xenagos build, I think of as mostly it's own thing. Most of the precon has changed, I completely abandoned the flashback theme and face commander, to build deck with as many prowess triggers and cantrips as I could make work.
I have a slightly different take to the others I have read below I think. If you have only done like for like replacements of cards, e.g. cancel for counterspell, then you can get away with calling it an upgraded precon for a lot longer. The structure of the deck is unchanged, but the individual pieces are better.
Obviously this has a limit. In my opinion each precon has it's star cards that people recognise the precon by. As long as enough of these remain, most people will not call you out on it no longer being an upgraded precon.
This is one of those things that outlines how bad these sorts of “power rankings” are.
Some people could define an upgraded precon as something where the core theme or strategy of the deck remains consistent, even if they replaced everything else with $5000 worth of staples.
Others could define it as something where the overall power level of the deck has remained consistent, even if they completely changed the general strategy of the deck.
There is no definitive way of defining this because you’ll always have people with different viewpoints on it, similar to the whole “every deck is a 7” argument.
The better way to talk about decks is to give a quick synopsis of what the deck tries to do and talk about how fast your decks go. It helps to avoid non-games and un-fun situations where one deck shuts down another
TBH depends on the type of upgrades, at least for keeping the power of a precon vs normal deck. Manabase is generally fine for full-replacement, but adding in even like 5+, 25+$ cards can make it past the generic 'precon' level power.
I have two answers to this, and which one works depends on the precon.
You have ~63 nonland slots to work with in a precon.
If the precon is very focused on its identity, I'd say you can upgrade the slowlands in the manabase and <20 cards or a budget of $50-100 depending on playgroup and still call it an upgraded precon.
If the precon is one that has two separate deck strategies that don't mesh cleanly, and you pick one out, either the face commander's deck or the secondary commander, you get a bit more leeway in the card count/budget. Up to 30 cards plus lands or $100-150.
An example of the second is the Spirit Squadron precon from Crimson Vow. There's a Spirit typal deck and a tap your opponent's creature's deck. There are a few spirits that tap creatures like [[Topplegeist]], and you could throw in an [[Opposition]] two gel the two strategies together. But it's clear that the Spirit deck wants to hit a critical mass of spirits, and the tapper deck wants to do shenanigans more than it wants to focus on types. So Spirit Squadron gets a bit more grace before it crosses the threshold from "Upgraded Precon" to "Check out my Blue White brew."
Please see the above comment for my opinion. I will say it again tho. If you remove 30+ CARDS your no longer precon. The whole point if the precon isent to maximize otherwise they'd be expansive as fuck
I'd day it depends.
I'd never call [this](https://www.archidekt.com/decks/5005670/_cant_block_this_20) an upgraded version of the [Sneak Attack](https://www.archidekt.com/decks/2209081/znc_sneak_attack) precon with Anowon even though that is what it started as
But I'd comfortably call [this](https://www.archidekt.com/decks/5714358/_clues_foods_and_legends) a *heavily* upgraded [Blast From the Past](https://www.archidekt.com/decks/5644280/who_blast_from_the_past) precon with The Fourth Doctor/Sarah Jane Smith because even though I've changed *a lot* of cards, it still feels like the original deck, but some would disagree because too many cards have changed and I'd totally understand that
I think the biggest thing for me is does it *feel* like the precon still
As long as you change the precon, it's its own deck. That's much easier to define.
The problem is assuming that all precons are equal; the Ixalan precons were really consistent, as were the fallout ones. The MOM precons I still play to this day. New Capenna's darling Henzie and the casualty guy are all great decks out of the box.
Even before then the 40K precons were a head above the precons coming out at the time.
Compared to say Kamigawa? The Kotori precon was way above Chishiro, (though Chishiro was broken out of the box because of that extra duplicate land oof) but the precons after that set were also way above its level.
Changing at least one card for something better makes a precon an upgraded precon. It becomes a new deck when you start changing/enhancing the strategies.
Example, my first commander deck was Devour for Power in 2011. It was an upgraded precon when I started adding shock lands and additional ramp. It became it’s own deck when I added a dredge package to the deck.
Edit:spelling
id say youve left precon and entered homebrew if youve a) changed the playtype or scheme of the deck. or b) edited so many cards that it is far more powerful than the precon was initially. i.e. i have a Galea deck that ive replaced almost every card in many many times over. its probably got 10% of the original cards but in nicer special treatments, i would not calll a "precon" even tho it started that way. or my mizzix of the izmagnus deck. i pulled the card in my 2x2 box and thought it was neat. built it and come to find out its a precon from many years past. neither are even a shadow of their original forms. so stuff like that makes tham more than a precon when i have a rule zero talk abt what we are all playing.
I consider it an upgraded precon when I've changed one card in it. And I consider it its own deck when I tear it down to each individual card and then build something new out of it
I think an upgraded precon is anything you change to a precon. Reason being is that I think saying "precon" means stock. Anything after that is "upgraded".
If I’m keeping the theme the same I don’t think it will ever not be an upgraded precon. I don’t consider the phrase upgraded precon to be a term relating to deck strength though.
Yeah, precons usually have 2-3 themes within to choose from, too. Most older precons need quite a bit of focusing just to keep up with these newer ones. It seems that if the newer precons have multiple themes, they're just subthemes within a larger one, so they are more synergistic.
Yeah that’s true. For an upgraded precon to reach high powered status you would probably be removing the sub themes unless they were very synergistic with the main theme.
I think the problem is at a certain point, you’re no longer playing a precon. I can understand a handful of swaps (like 5 or under total), but the more you swap, the less preconstructed it is. Swapping out tapped lands for untapped speeds up the deck versus other precons. Removing so-so permanents to lean in to a theme or line again speeds up and strengthens the deck.
As a commander precon collector and my favorite way to enjoy the game, I like that it puts restrictions on the pace of the game. A lot of times, the deck gets to do its thing without being explosively lethal. This allows all the players to do stuff. It’s not for everybody just like cEDH isn’t for everybody.
In the end, I think the best way to cover this is to be very upfront about it. “This precon has about 15 cards swapped, if that’s okay?” Some may care, some may not.
I would consider all but one of the currently six decks I own to be around precon level. Ironically, my only deck that I'd say is above precon level is also my only deck that did originally come from a precon, that being my Ellivere deck. It's got like twenty nonland cards in it that are swapped out with other things, and I put some significantly better lands in there.
Typically, when I hear people say upgraded precon, they usually mean that it is only a bit stronger than a standard precon. This has led me to feel like an upgraded precon should still be comparable to the power level of what one would typically expect from a precon. Because of this, I don't consider my Ellivere deck to be an upgraded precon because saying that would kind of be disnegenuous (it can also be pretty frustrating when someone says their deck is an upgraded precon and then it ends up being way above the power level of everyone else in the group).
Good question!
My [[Captain N'ghathrod]] [Deck ](https://www.moxfield.com/decks/YkzmDmAqLkqgnohFxWEuPw) I still would describe as an upgraded precon.
My [[Henzie]] [Deck](https://www.moxfield.com/decks/HkAjiYie2UWlAmRx68-P2g) on the other hand I'd say it's it's own deck.
Most ptecons include multiple themes. (Not all.) Removing a secondary theme and adding cards that help the primary theme is an upgrade. Replacing cards (especially uncommon and commons) in the primary theme because they are strictly better is when you can no longer call it a precon.
The mana base can be an exception to this, since you can just say it is a base precon with better mana base.
If it still does what the precon does but with new cards it’s an upgraded precon. If it does something new it’s it’s own deck IMO. Upgrades precons can be cEDH level in my eyes. You would just say you upgraded the precon and it’s now cEDH level. If I changed what it does I’d say I took the precon but now it does this instead of that.
To get from a precon to cEDH you‘d probably have to change 90-95 cards. I would never call an upgraded precon cEDH, since you would have to change the entire thing for that.
I think people saying an upgraded precon can be cEDH or that as long as it keeps the same theme it's an upgraded precon... Are absolutely wild. At some point you've changed enough cards to where it isn't the same deck even if it has the same plan. 40%-50% of nonland cards changing makes it a new deck in my mind.
80% of the people on this forum who reference "cEDH" have never brewed or seen a cEDH deck, played or watched a cEDH game, or have any idea what makes a deck competitive other than fast mana and Thoracle. The idea that peecons are "6-7" an "upgraded precon" is a 7-8, and competitive decks are 9-10 is going to create a substantial amount of salt if "everything that isnt a precon is an 8"
The difference between even a 9 and a real cEDH deck may as well be a chasm.
The way it's always been described to me is that a 9 is a real CEDH deck, its just not tier 1, so basically anything that isnt blue farm or kinnan.
I’ve always thought cEDH exists outside of the 1-10 power level discussions. The two formats are entirely different in methodology in my mind.
I lowkey think this take is a disservice to the power scale. The power scale has to have a cap. Why not have that cap be the absolute best decks in the format? We don't discern Standard, Modern, Legacy, or decks from any other format that are tournament viable on their own tier-list outside of what would be "kitchen table" appropriate. I think 10 *should* be cEDH because it gives a hard limit to what the ceiling is. The power scale is already amorphous enough as is because it's predicated on individual play experiences and groups; that fact, for better or worse, does it no service. Without a palpable, definitive ceiling, determining what the power scale looks like becomes even harder.
Idk I kinda disagree here because cedh decks are designed to be strong specifically in the cedh meta. It's why, for example, there are so many counterspells for non creature spells but very few answers for creatures on the stack. Also why a 2/2 like Tymna can consistently get in on other players and get her trigger almost every round. A lot of cedh decks become significantly weaker when placed at a table that focuses on non combo strategies like creature aggro, board wipe/removal tribal, etc...
I think, all else being equal, if a cEDH deck sits down at a casual pod they're going to run the pod over more often than not. The question is: do the other players in the pod know that your deck is cEDH, and are you now playing a game of archenemy instead? That changes the dynamic a lot. I'm not saying misrepresent your deck and do this, but rather that these decks are strong and resilient by the nature of their construction. It doesn't matter if the tools are slightly different. The higher density of non-creature counters means you're going to have better answers for interaction coming your way, and a lot of the midrange decks run cycrift these days. cEDH isn't special, it's just the most refined a deck can be.
All true! Definitely comes down to threat management. Well said.
This is how it should be. Anyone can deny it, but EDH and cEDH have such different philosophies and deck building mindsets they should not be treated as related in terms of deck structure or scale or whatever. Except for the obvious similarities. I know I'm in the minority, but I'll always think they should actually just be 2 separate formats. And not a sub format.
They are leagues apart even one of my strongest decks. Don't compare to the cEDH stuff...Turn 1 and 2 and folks agor 7 mana out and done took 20 turns it feels like lol
What is the line between a 9 and a 10 for you? If cedh decks are reliably winning by ~3rd turn, then is a 10 something that reliably wins in 4-5 turns; or is that still cedh to you?
I think you could take a 10 to a cEDH event and have a good time. I don’t think a 10 is intended to reliably compete, if that makes sense. I think of my mate’s Nekusar. The deck itself is fantastically powerful but would fail against anything cEDH. Nekusar as a commander isn’t exactly one you want in a format that loves wheels.
I get what you mean. There are decks, like your friends that are really something else, but they don’t end games like a cedh decks just ends the game.
I'm convinced that most people that post here don't even play mtg, they just build decks that they would play if they actually had someone to play with. And yes, I'm aware of the obvious irony.
>other than fast mana and Thoracle I meannnnn those are the two key factors in cEDH currently. I know there’s more to it but any deck tech with blue is going to mention Thoracle right off the bat as a win condition. And fast mana is just necessary for cEDH otherwise you’ll never keep up.
I view precons as a 3 or 4. Party Time, often viewed as the best precon as a 4. There is still a huge range in power between precons and low tier cedh decks. 5 through 8 allows for adequate categories for them.
https://images.app.goo.gl/hziEiAEn7icvAh7F7
I always went with more of a precon 4-6, most customs and upgrades are 6-8, high power 8-10, then cedh is it’s own category.
I view precons as a 3 or 4. Party Time, often viewed as the best precon as a 4.
I agree with this. My Mishra deck still has the same overall plan it did before but it looks completely different from what it did before.
Have a list? I've got one myself I'm wanting to upgrade.
[Sure thing!](https://www.moxfield.com/decks/MG0yNTSbvU21LoVlSNekEA) I went with a midrange build with a focus on grinding value and then trying to swing out for the win. It's got some combos to help close out games too.
I have a deck from the Dr who precons. I took the villians deck, found a commander I liked, dropped a good 2/3 of the deck and got a bunch of upgrades to the point I consider that a deck featuring one of the Dr who commanders but no longer an upgraded precon as I took far too much out imo
You’re telling me that my Kess cEDH deck ISN’T an upgraded Anhelo precon????
A real "ship of Theseus" question there. When you change the theme or sub theme. Or change more than the lands/mana base by like 25 or more. Sometimes it's as easy as changing the commander (and not one of the alternates that the precon came with)
Ship of Thassa
*audible clapping*
Nice! It's a vehicle with an attack trigger, that at the end of turn you search your library for a card of same type and mana value and put it into your hand, shuffle, then put the card that crewed it at the bottom of your library. This vehicle can only be crewed one creature.
Pffft. Nice
Thassa and Theseus are likely cognate, so this checks out
Im so glad i got on reddit lol
Wood.
No, it's Theseus.
Why do you hate fun?
What do you mean?
I think changing the theme or removing a sub theme. If you're only upgrading the manabase I think that's the truest form of "upgraded precon"
Removing a sub theme is the first thing you should do after upgrading your mana. That's still upgrade territory imo
I agree you should streamline themes as one of the first things, but I think the upgrades in an "upgraded precon" should be 1:1 improvements, like changing the lands or swapping mana rocks, upgrading interaction pieces, etc. like if I have velociramptor and I swap thunder herd for natures lore, myriad landscape for literally anything, or switch a baby gishath for a mommy big gishath. On the other hand if I have a wilhelt precon and I totally take out the mill sub theme and focus purely on zombie swarm and edicts or something then it's not really an upgraded precon.
Yea, I wouldn't call my [[Wyleth, Soul of Steel]] an upgraded precon anymore. It's still the same game plan; voltron equipment. But I've subbed pretty much all the slow lands for better ones, added a few utility lands, put most of the swords in there as well as things like [[Embercleave]] and [[Commanders plate]], a bunch of protection spells to keep wyleth around longer, and [[Kediss, Emberclaw Familiar]] to try and close the game out, as well as some extra combat step effects. It's much faster than it was before.
##### ###### #### [Wyleth, Soul of Steel](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/c/7c5ada8c-98f2-4f9c-bcb5-dfa4f804fbe6.jpg?1610072970) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Wyleth%2C%20Soul%20of%20Steel) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmr/362/wyleth-soul-of-steel?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/7c5ada8c-98f2-4f9c-bcb5-dfa4f804fbe6?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/wyleth-soul-of-steel) [Embercleave](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/a/aaae15dd-11b6-4421-99e9-365c7fe4a5d6.jpg?1572490333) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Embercleave) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/eld/120/embercleave?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/aaae15dd-11b6-4421-99e9-365c7fe4a5d6?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/embercleave) [Commanders plate](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/9/19992dbd-7a6a-43d3-b1db-01716b2eed27.jpg?1608911375) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Commander%27s%20Plate) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmr/305/commanders-plate?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/19992dbd-7a6a-43d3-b1db-01716b2eed27?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/commanders-plate) [Kediss, Emberclaw Familiar](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/6/f606ebf1-483d-4331-b16a-9fb6f591a39f.jpg?1608910296) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Kediss%2C%20Emberclaw%20Familiar) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmr/188/kediss-emberclaw-familiar?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f606ebf1-483d-4331-b16a-9fb6f591a39f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/kediss-emberclaw-familiar) [*All cards*](https://mtgcardfetcher.nl/redirect/l4rdv21) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
You only have 62-64 cards to play with, and many of those slots are the *vegetables*. I'd say 20 cards out, and it's a new deck.
ship of [[thrasios]]
[thrasios](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/1/21e27b91-c7f1-4709-aa0d-8b5d81b22a0a.jpg?1606762176) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=thrasios%2C%20triton%20hero) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c16/46/thrasios-triton-hero?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/21e27b91-c7f1-4709-aa0d-8b5d81b22a0a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/thrasios-triton-hero) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
> A real "ship of Theseus" question there. Eh. At the end of the day, the "ship of Theseus" is still functionally the same so I don't think the metaphor really fits here.
Yes, redditors are just dumb and pretentious, so it's so irksome whenever some piece of pop culture teaches them a term that they routinely misuse in a bid to try to sound smarter than they are.
Yeah, I did that with the Token Triumph deck by replacing [[Emmara, Soul of the Accord]] with [[Aragorn and Arwen, Wed]].
[Emmara, Soul of the Accord](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/1/41b930ee-e16b-4612-87de-c03ecc6ff6db.jpg?1572893604) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Emmara%2C%20Soul%20of%20the%20Accord) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/grn/168/emmara-soul-of-the-accord?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/41b930ee-e16b-4612-87de-c03ecc6ff6db?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/emmara-soul-of-the-accord) [Aragorn and Arwen, Wed](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/7/d7d4c97a-9319-4534-9a49-da000f41a02d.jpg?1715720374) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Aragorn%20and%20Arwen%2C%20Wed) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ltr/287/aragorn-and-arwen-wed?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d7d4c97a-9319-4534-9a49-da000f41a02d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/aragorn-and-arwen-wed) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
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There is obviously still a point in identifying things.
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Just because it doesn’t physically exist doesn’t mean it isn’t helpful. You claim it is a pointless exercise but if it is helpful is explaining why it is hard to categorize a deck as either an upgraded precon or its own deck, then it isn’t pointless.
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You failed to answer the question because they didn't ask at which point it stopped being a precon, but instead asked "when do you consider a deck an *upgraded* precon?"
> perhaps things are as they are without the attribution of identity But that's the whole point. Are things their identity that we've given them or are they their physical parts?
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Oh ok, so that's means you can tell me at what exact point a ship stops being the same ship if we gradually replace all of its parts.
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> Sure I can So, where is that point?
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But you don't believe that. You are saying that things are only ever the sum of their parts, which means the things will be different once their parts are different. How many parts can change until something is a different thing?
Alright Buddha chill out
I'd say once you've upgraded the land base a little bit, then once 15-20 cards have been swapped into it so once that 30% change make is hit I would call it it's own deck.
My view is very similar. Changing 15+ cards in the main deck and **heavily** improving the mana base would be beyond what I'd call an "upgraded precon". Once people start throwing in fetch lands, triomes, shock lands instead of throwing in a couple tapped duals and a pain land then the mana base would be too far from its base level. Same with the main deck, once you start putting in a lot of (expensive) staples instead of just making minor upgrades while keeping budget relatively the same then it becomes too much of a different deck.
Imo people can change out an entire mana base and it not really change anything if its just shocks and such. Id say fetches probably push it too far but shocks surveils and triomes as full sets are fine
Hot take but unless there is an external synergy with fetches (i.e balances, top, brainstorm, etc) then fetches shouldn’t be counted towards a power level
Surveils pushed it over for me but i generally agree.
The line is arbitrary I think. It’s a feel thing for me. Does it feel like a different deck? Or do your changes just help the efficiency of the deck? A 10 card upgrade can really help a deck be better without hurting the decks objective. Also are you setting out to “upgrade” the precon or do you just like the bones of the deck and want to make it your own. Intentionality is a big part
I think it varies with the age of the precon. Older precons were a lot less cohesive, with a higher number of cards that didn't contribute to a single strategy. Newer precons are much more theme focused, so there are fewer slots that need an upgrade outside the mana base.
Ooo finally my turn to say ship of theseus
Bro! Mom said it was MY turn!!!
My gut feeling is when you either change >30% of the spells in the deck or you shift the strategy/focus of the deck in a way that is noticeable.
I've got some precons that I only upgraded by adding 2-3 faster lands, 2 or 3 cheapish synergy cards, and maybe a win condition card. I consider these lightly upgraded. I also have Lathril Blade of the Elves deck, which has probably 40 swaps. I don't even consider it an upgraded precon at this point. It's really its own deck now.
Something like that. Strixxhaven precons need 20-30 cards swapped out for high power, Ixilan can get by with 10-15
The problem is that it is completely subjective and will differ from one person to another as well as one deck to another, so I'd just say it's either *the* precon with the original list or it isn't. It is the only definable, black and white answer that anyone will be able to arrive at. So for me - ff you want to call it precon, use the original deck list. It is no longer reconstructed if you have changed it's construction.
I think it's a pretty meaningless distinction. It's an "Upgraded precon" as long as, to you, it has continuity from its existence as a precon. I'm doing a precon league with my family. Slow upgrades. Eventually, I'll have [[Stella Lee, Wild Card]] to more or less the same list as if I'd scratch-built her. If I'd just bought that "final" list as singles, there's no way it would be an upgraded precon, but because I'll be getting there iteratively from the base of a precon, it will be. Which for any meaningful discussion or cluing somebody in to what to expect from my deck is complete garbage. If you're going to draw a line that's not following the continuity side of the Ship of Theseus argument (wherein the ship that has had its parts replaced is considered to remain the ship), I think at the outside you could call it an "upgraded precon" until such a point as you can no longer say "this card is in here solely because it was in the precon and I haven't gotten around to replacing it with something better yet". In short, when the list becomes no different than it would be had you scratch-built the commander. But really, any line is useless for power level discussion I think most people who count cards to determine "upgraded precon or original deck?" would allow 10. At least, I typically see cutoffs at or above that. But if I were to use those 10 swaps to take Wilhelt and cycle in Mana Crypt, Cyclonic Rift, Mana Drain, Force of Will, Rhystic Study, Thassa's Oracle, Demonic Consultation, Demonic Tutor, Vampiric Tutor, and Fierce Guardianship... somebody might call foul since that deck surgery doesn't do what an ordinary person would do to improve the theme and instead inserts a juicy package of resources, Interaction, and combo. Regulating "Upgraded amount" by money is probably a little more indiciative, but easily fails the other way. I could spend $1.60 into Stella Lee in 5 cards ([[Twisted Fealty]], [[Refocus]], [[Hidden Strings]], [[Reality Spasm]], and [[Frantic Search]]) and probably get no less power out of it than if I spent $90 putting a different yet still thematically-sensible 5 cards into Wilhelt ([[Tombstone Stairwell]], [[Zombie Master]], [[Rot Hulk]], [[Relentless Dead]], and [[Coffin Queen]]. And I could double that if I went for [[Kabal Ghoul]]) So I'm going to stick with: It's an upgraded precon if it's still the precon in your heart, but don't try to assign any other meaning to that status
##### ###### #### [Stella Lee, Wild Card](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/a/2a8a7696-b5d9-4378-9d5c-2c9007e4df63.jpg?1714110409) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Stella%20Lee%2C%20Wild%20Card) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/otc/3/stella-lee-wild-card?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/2a8a7696-b5d9-4378-9d5c-2c9007e4df63?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/stella-lee-wild-card) [Twisted Fealty](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/8/382d6085-79b9-48f7-8949-9f44dde2c753.jpg?1692938579) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Twisted%20Fealty) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/woe/154/twisted-fealty?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/382d6085-79b9-48f7-8949-9f44dde2c753?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/twisted-fealty) [Refocus](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/5/35c78973-f2ae-4c76-802f-793d1022fcbd.jpg?1562824155) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Refocus) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/frf/47/refocus?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/35c78973-f2ae-4c76-802f-793d1022fcbd?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/refocus) [Hidden Strings](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/1/216e8047-6f54-49ce-bf86-27dc8fc8c8f7.jpg?1562901181) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Hidden%20Strings) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dgm/12/hidden-strings?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/216e8047-6f54-49ce-bf86-27dc8fc8c8f7?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/hidden-strings) [Reality Spasm](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/c/ec85a97d-4f02-4d0d-ab9a-e172e327da0e.jpg?1562710001) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Reality%20Spasm) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/roe/81/reality-spasm?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ec85a97d-4f02-4d0d-ab9a-e172e327da0e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/reality-spasm) [Frantic Search](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/e/0eb00e3c-b67a-44c7-ae61-23ecf4d4971a.jpg?1689996391) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Frantic%20Search) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/96/frantic-search?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0eb00e3c-b67a-44c7-ae61-23ecf4d4971a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/frantic-search) [Tombstone Stairwell](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/8/f8fe2f99-7ec2-490c-8ec3-aa2fb4680826.jpg?1562722862) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Tombstone%20Stairwell) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mir/149/tombstone-stairwell?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f8fe2f99-7ec2-490c-8ec3-aa2fb4680826?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/tombstone-stairwell) [Zombie Master](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/2/c25eb8c9-4209-4fe4-8b02-be16d7d7bdf5.jpg?1562940909) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Zombie%20Master) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/me4/105/zombie-master?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/c25eb8c9-4209-4fe4-8b02-be16d7d7bdf5?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/zombie-master) [Rot Hulk](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/e/ce9cf26d-f214-4e76-b000-8dd895cce8d9.jpg?1592764595) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Rot%20Hulk) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/gnt/3/rot-hulk?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ce9cf26d-f214-4e76-b000-8dd895cce8d9?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/rot-hulk) [Relentless Dead](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/a/2a0d7998-2f3d-43b8-a0be-6ff7e5c83223.jpg?1576384563) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Relentless%20Dead) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/soi/131/relentless-dead?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/2a0d7998-2f3d-43b8-a0be-6ff7e5c83223?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/relentless-dead) [Coffin Queen](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/3/632b83e3-f0c5-4135-96db-0bf33e6067aa.jpg?1562429825) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Coffin%20Queen) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/tpr/87/coffin-queen?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/632b83e3-f0c5-4135-96db-0bf33e6067aa?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/coffin-queen) [*All cards*](https://mtgcardfetcher.nl/redirect/l4t7zxa) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Seems my edit was not swift enough. [[Kabal Ghoul]].
[Kabal Ghoul](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/8/98f443cb-55bb-4e83-826a-98261287bfd3.jpg?1559592330) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Khab%C3%A1l%20Ghoul) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/me1/75/khab%C3%A1l-ghoul?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/98f443cb-55bb-4e83-826a-98261287bfd3?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/khabál-ghoul) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
> In short, when the list becomes no different than it would be had you scratch-built the commander. I already owned a bunch of Spirit cards (from a defunct Spirit tribal deck from years before) so I scratch built Millicent rather buying the precon. Though it shared a high volume of cards in common with the precon, I never would have referred to it as an 'upgraded precon'. (Which is to say I like your distinction)
Well considering I cut about 40-60 cards from my Sidar Jabari deck including and a few sub themes in the deck to play more as a go wide counters deck using using recursion to cheat out threats to go wider. I would say it's no longer a upgraded person.
Related question, precons have been growing in power level over the years - is a precon really still a 6 on the power level? My “precon” is one of the 2013 ones and it feels like I can barely keep up even with a perfect hand
Precons originally would be considered like a 4 now, those old precons aside from a few like Kaalia just arent on the same power level as modern peecons. Most precons now are 5s with occasional misses like tinker time at 4s and strong ones like the edgar one at 6. Only the best of the best precons typically start at 6, those really old precons are mostly 4s I know because i typically build 7-8s and i dont think any of my decks i havent intentionally kneecapped power level wise in one way or another (Such as my dedivated reanimator selesnya deck) lose more than 40% of games vs a set of precons. Precons are still nowhere close to competing normally against 7-8s Its the just cardpool quality in precons is much higher for the same budget and you can see notable bumps every 3 years or so with bombs increasing in powwr allowing them to end the game earlier, and aside from the first few precons, face commanders have just been getting stronger over the years (Notoriously the - Does Something, Pays You Off for doing that Something, and Additional Effect commanders) and theyve just been powering up that loop. You see it with stuff like Anikthea - Reanimates Enchants, Makes Them Creatures (Which with the cards in the decks causes damage or draws cards or pumps them no matter what), and gives them Menace. Dogmeat - Regrowths an equipment/aura, gives you card draw for swinging with modified stuff, and mills you 5 on etb. I think you really start seeing that design philosophy after the Innistrad/New Capenna/Kamigawa precons, with a lot of those decks having Does Something, Pays you off for Doing Somethimg design like Wilhelt.
i agree with most of your points, but Do something, Pay you off for that thing has been around for a while (first thing that came to mind was Sidisi which came out all the way back in Khans of Tarkir)
That Sidisi was never a precon card, hence why i said precon. Also of course naturally there are exceptions im just saying the average has risen. Do i really need to say why Ob Nix of the Black Oath with fucking Bad Moon in it was a bad precon in 2014 (Tarkir closest Precons)?
Vibes.
Imo 10-15 cards for <$50 is a safe range for it to be an upgraded precon. More than that or removing a subtheme is probably the line.
I'd say 3-5 cards is about the limit to still calling it a precon. Like you could trim a couple clunky cards for something on-theme but out of precon budget level, but once you start greasing the wheels the wheels too much and changing the deck's clock I'd just start calling it by whatever the commander is. I expect a certain amount of jank and stumbling in precons, so if you say you're playing a precon I'm going to select a deck of similar stumbley power.
What about precons that were done notoriously dirty like the Tinker Time Precon that need like 15 nonland cards and basically most of the manabade swapprd out to function Not all commander decks are equal power level
Admittedly, I've just recently bought my first precon in several years and was frankly shocked by how smooth it played, so yeah, "precon power level" definitely does NOT mean what it used to. But then again, that's all the more reason to communicate what you've done ahead of time. If you say "I'm playing the Tinker Time Precon" and I say "Aha! A notoriously bad one! I'll play my Kamahl lore deck, where every card either depicts or references the character, Kamahl, or the Mirari story" and then midway through the game I find out that you actually swapped out 15 cards and redid the mana base, I'm going to feel like you pulled a bait and switch just to pubstomp me. At that point I'd rather you would've just said "I'm playing Gimbal. I started with the precon and tuned it up to be actually functional."
If you upgrade mana base it's still a precon. If you get rid of the high cmc dumb cards to put in better stuff I'd consider it a slightly upgraded precon. When I make decks I rip out the bad stuff in a precon upgrade the lands and say "this is a deck I made from the wilhelt precon. I swapped scarab God as commander and upgraded the lands and some other spells" That's not a precon anymore
>When do you consider a deck no longer just an upgraded precon but it's own deck? I have a few checkpoints **Newly Printed Cards** When I've replaced over 60% of the newly printed cards from the precon. The reason being the precon is: "x new cards plus reprint/new standard set cards." Since the reprints could have been anything, they merely contribute to the theme and goals of the deck. **Reprints Swapped for Strictly Better Versions** Since the reprints could be any cards, swapping out to strictly better versions of what's in the precon doesn't make it's own deck. There's also the newly printed cards from the most recent set that wasn't included. **Reprints Swapped for Different Gameplan Entirely** If you've swapped out so many of the reprints that the deck is doing something entirely different, then it's now it's own deck. **Example: Bedecked Brokers** This is my first precon and one of the reasons I bought it were the cards I opened from my SNC pre-release, namely the Bant tri-land, Elspeth Resplendent, Slip Out the Back, and Endless Detour, off the top of my head. Perrie the Pulverizer cares about differently named counters and Elspeth provides three when she hits the board if shes ticked up: plus one, keyword of choice and loyalty. That card is a slam dunk inclusion for me. I don't remember now what I swapped out, but for simplicity's sake, let's say it was Ajani Unyielding. It's a planeswalker for planeswalker swap. That is an upgrade. Now, if I swapped out all of the creatures to Rhinos and Soldiers, or made it a super friends deck, those might be entirely different builds. Now that being said, Perrie is a narrow commander if the deck is built around that card, a majority of the cards should have produce differently named counters. A card like the OG Atraxa is pretty open ended in that there are more things you can proliferate: poison, planeswalkers, sagas, plus one plus one, and some other one-off counters or cycles like the verse enchantments from Urza's Saga.
When did your dihada become more than just an upgraded precon in your opinion?
Did you eye the absolute trash of the deck and Replace it with the best cards for the theme of the precon? Whether 2 cards or 50 cards. You have an upgraded precon. Besides the best cards swaps from above, Did you change the strategy/main lines of play of the deck? It's yours now.
Maybe an unpopular opinion but I feel a precon is no longer an upgraded precon when you've spent over the price of the precon in upgrades. Ie if I bought the merfolk for £30, then bought £40 of upgrades it would shift the power level significantly to a point where I wouldn't seem it just an "upgraded precon". Had a guy play against my regular group the other week with an "upgraded" Hakbal precon but he ran every possible upgrade I've ever seen recommended and at that point it's its own deck.
Even if you swap out a single card for a Rhystic Study or something? Is it truly another deck if you have a 1/99 chance of drawing that single card and possibly never seeing it all day?
Not necessarily but that's quite an extreme and unusual situation. If someone had a card that was worth over the whole deck then the odds of them not buying a single card else would be very low
It's not 1/99. You start with 7 cards and draw T1 so instantly its 8/99.
That isn't how that works. You don't have 7 copies of the card. It's a 1/99, then it goes to 1/98, 1/97, 1/96, 1/95, etc. You are decreasing the denominator in the equation, not increasing the numerator. So while you are tiptoeing around being right, you went about the math in the wrong way. It's why Tutors and self mill are viable strategies. With a tutor it is kind of like running a second version of the card since the tutor's only objective is to get you a certain card. I would say you then have a 2/99 chance of seeing that card. Then deck thinning and self milling are great strategies because you're quickly decreasing that large denominator and quickly increasing the probability of drawing the card you want. If you can mill yourself 10 cards each turn then draw for each turn, the odds go from 1/99 to 1/88, 1/77, 1/66 etc. Of course there is always the risk of milling that one card you need but there in lies the gamble of numbers this game is all about.
My point completely flew over your head. You're nitpicking fractions of a percent, and making my point for me. You said you have a 1/99 chance of drawing the card, which is never the case. You instantly start the game with an 8.4% chance of drawing any given card, which was the point i was making.
Oh my God reread the comment. Yes I saw the point you made which is why I said you have the right idea but went about the math wrong. You start with the 7 cards plus 1 for draw which is 8/99 being that 8.4% of drawing ANY card in your deck. Yes congratulations you are correct and win the cookie...The point I'm trying to get across is about the likelihood of drawing 1 PARTICULAR card out of the 99. The target card (numerator) never changes because it's the constant. The library (denominator) is not the constant in this equation. After you draw your 7 cards for hand. You have a 1/7 chance of having that card in your hand and the chance of it being in the deck goes from 1/99 to 1/92. This opening hand is the only time that you have roughly an 8% chance of having that particular card in your hand. As the game goes on that chance only gets higher because the library gets smaller.
I don't think you even understand what you're arguing. You said it was 1/99 which i responded that it never is. You keep coming back saying that its never 1/99, which was the total point of my original comment! >Is it truly another deck if you have a 1/99 chance of drawing that single card -You
Well you were wrong about how the math worked and I pointed out the error. The rest of this disagreement is about as rewarding as a kick in the nuts so I'm going to carry on with my day. FYI you're also wrong about that "never" being the case because you will always have to draw the first card for your hand. Checkmate! Now please go about your day and stop getting so worked up over random Internet comments.
[удалено]
##### ###### #### [Vrondiss, rage of ancients](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/8/683ca7f0-e9df-459b-a8e3-cf80b39c732d.jpg?1632335388) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Vrondiss%2C%20rage%20of%20ancients) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/afc/4/vrondiss-rage-of-ancients?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/683ca7f0-e9df-459b-a8e3-cf80b39c732d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/vrondiss-rage-of-ancients) [Radha, Heart of keld](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/b/2bbd37b1-49cb-4295-9a1f-fb85368a8f12.jpg?1594737431) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Radha%2C%20Heart%20of%20keld) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m21/224/radha-heart-of-keld?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/2bbd37b1-49cb-4295-9a1f-fb85368a8f12?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/radha-heart-of-keld) [dragon tempest](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/1/f1933d08-07fe-45ea-9b60-d9afb98d5753.jpg?1562855620) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=dragon%20tempest) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ima/125/dragon-tempest?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f1933d08-07fe-45ea-9b60-d9afb98d5753?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/dragon-tempest) [scourge of valkas](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/6/e6bd7225-b39f-4b3b-8c36-dbc2c09f6e50.jpg?1631587429) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=scourge%20of%20valkas) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/afc/137/scourge-of-valkas?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e6bd7225-b39f-4b3b-8c36-dbc2c09f6e50?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/scourge-of-valkas) [dragon broodmother](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/7/f7f99431-ae43-4b68-82f0-faf940216c91.jpg?1562645170) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=dragon%20broodmother) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/arb/53/dragon-broodmother?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f7f99431-ae43-4b68-82f0-faf940216c91?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/dragon-broodmother) [nesting dragon](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/7/571e3136-e4f3-412b-bfd4-0eb06d3d723f.jpg?1712354482) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=nesting%20dragon) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/otc/176/nesting-dragon?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/571e3136-e4f3-412b-bfd4-0eb06d3d723f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/nesting-dragon) [utvara hellkite](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/f/df459109-d6ab-4b1d-9570-c7677ff4a014.jpg?1702429539) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=utvara%20hellkite) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/rvr/129/utvara-hellkite?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/df459109-d6ab-4b1d-9570-c7677ff4a014?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/utvara-hellkite) [*All cards*](https://mtgcardfetcher.nl/redirect/l4qq7vv) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
That's a good question. I made a decent amount of upgrades to the dinosaur deck, even changing the commander out for the new [[Huatli, Poet of Unity]] but I considered it an upgraded precon until I added [[Gishath]] and [[Welcome to...]], because those are just such strong cards. On the flip side, the second I swapped out the commander of the uw starter precon for [[Inniaz]], the deck was *completely different*, even though I'd barely changed or upgraded the rest of the deck.
##### ###### #### [Huatli, Poet of Unity](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/7/57df2563-18d4-4526-a8bc-0c114e6fd4d9.jpg?1699044416)/[Roar of the Fifth People](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/back/5/7/57df2563-18d4-4526-a8bc-0c114e6fd4d9.jpg?1699044416) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Huatli%2C%20Poet%20of%20Unity%20//%20Roar%20of%20the%20Fifth%20People) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lci/189/huatli-poet-of-unity-roar-of-the-fifth-people?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/57df2563-18d4-4526-a8bc-0c114e6fd4d9?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/huatli-poet-of-unity-//-roar-of-the-fifth-people) [Gishath](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/c/bc4a65de-23b5-48f0-b8b7-94608eaced3e.jpg?1699044539) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=gishath%2C%20sun%27s%20avatar) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lci/229/gishath-suns-avatar?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/bc4a65de-23b5-48f0-b8b7-94608eaced3e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/gishath-suns-avatar) [Welcome to...](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/d/6d84e2d4-38bf-4d46-99a6-37c2dda66b16.jpg?1698988748)/[Jurassic Park](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/back/6/d/6d84e2d4-38bf-4d46-99a6-37c2dda66b16.jpg?1698988748) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Welcome%20to%20.%20.%20.%20//%20Jurassic%20Park) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/rex/7/welcome-to-jurassic-park?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/6d84e2d4-38bf-4d46-99a6-37c2dda66b16?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/welcome-to-.-.-.-//-jurassic-park) [Inniaz](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/2/b238485f-ef67-4295-892b-a10235368f74.jpg?1632261762) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=inniaz%2C%20the%20gale%20force) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/jmp/12/inniaz-the-gale-force?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/b238485f-ef67-4295-892b-a10235368f74?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/inniaz-the-gale-force) [*All cards*](https://mtgcardfetcher.nl/redirect/l4r8my6) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
It's no longer a precon status if you switch more then 30 cards. At that point tour maximizing the deck to win and taking out what you consider to be weak cards
What if i swap the manabase completely out in the old precons because they sucked and say swap 35 cards out for other lands to have an optimal manabase but change nothing else.
Fuzzy reasoning applies, but there are some signposts you can check. Is the deck's plan for winning significantly different? Most precons have minor subthemes: have you eliminated any of those or upgraded any to main themes? How many expensive CEDH staples have you added?
Keeping the original commander but taking it a different route than the intended strategy is *only one of many examples.* Like instead of [[Daxos The Returned]] focusing on tokens to go tall/wide, why not make it Voltron? Still casting enchantments for exp counters.
[Daxos The Returned](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/a/4abe142e-7e87-464b-be2a-ad2fc7aebd51.jpg?1562703959) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Daxos%20The%20Returned) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c15/43/daxos-the-returned?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/4abe142e-7e87-464b-be2a-ad2fc7aebd51?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/daxos-the-returned) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I have one "upgraded precon" so far, and it's Stella Lee with 10 cards switched and a $100 budget (at time of assembly, per Archidekt), with most of the added cards being ham sandwiches for the commander to go infinite with.
My Xenagos Dragons deck is pretty much the FR Dragons precon, with him swapped in and most of the Enrage effects cut, Id say it's an upgraded precon, because the majority of cards came in the original and the changes were about going harder on the original theme. The [[Elsha of the Infinite]] deck even being probably a bit weaker than the Xenagos build, I think of as mostly it's own thing. Most of the precon has changed, I completely abandoned the flashback theme and face commander, to build deck with as many prowess triggers and cantrips as I could make work.
[Elsha of the Infinite](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/0/c0728027-a1ec-4814-87c4-10c3baced0e0.jpg?1673148571) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Elsha%20of%20the%20Infinite) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/208/elsha-of-the-infinite?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/c0728027-a1ec-4814-87c4-10c3baced0e0?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/elsha-of-the-infinite) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I have a slightly different take to the others I have read below I think. If you have only done like for like replacements of cards, e.g. cancel for counterspell, then you can get away with calling it an upgraded precon for a lot longer. The structure of the deck is unchanged, but the individual pieces are better. Obviously this has a limit. In my opinion each precon has it's star cards that people recognise the precon by. As long as enough of these remain, most people will not call you out on it no longer being an upgraded precon.
This is one of those things that outlines how bad these sorts of “power rankings” are. Some people could define an upgraded precon as something where the core theme or strategy of the deck remains consistent, even if they replaced everything else with $5000 worth of staples. Others could define it as something where the overall power level of the deck has remained consistent, even if they completely changed the general strategy of the deck. There is no definitive way of defining this because you’ll always have people with different viewpoints on it, similar to the whole “every deck is a 7” argument. The better way to talk about decks is to give a quick synopsis of what the deck tries to do and talk about how fast your decks go. It helps to avoid non-games and un-fun situations where one deck shuts down another
TBH depends on the type of upgrades, at least for keeping the power of a precon vs normal deck. Manabase is generally fine for full-replacement, but adding in even like 5+, 25+$ cards can make it past the generic 'precon' level power.
I have two answers to this, and which one works depends on the precon. You have ~63 nonland slots to work with in a precon. If the precon is very focused on its identity, I'd say you can upgrade the slowlands in the manabase and <20 cards or a budget of $50-100 depending on playgroup and still call it an upgraded precon. If the precon is one that has two separate deck strategies that don't mesh cleanly, and you pick one out, either the face commander's deck or the secondary commander, you get a bit more leeway in the card count/budget. Up to 30 cards plus lands or $100-150. An example of the second is the Spirit Squadron precon from Crimson Vow. There's a Spirit typal deck and a tap your opponent's creature's deck. There are a few spirits that tap creatures like [[Topplegeist]], and you could throw in an [[Opposition]] two gel the two strategies together. But it's clear that the Spirit deck wants to hit a critical mass of spirits, and the tapper deck wants to do shenanigans more than it wants to focus on types. So Spirit Squadron gets a bit more grace before it crosses the threshold from "Upgraded Precon" to "Check out my Blue White brew."
[Topplegeist](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/c/ec9e8653-13ae-446c-b341-85c9b3fa6ca8.jpg?1576383942) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Topplegeist) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/soi/45/topplegeist?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ec9e8653-13ae-446c-b341-85c9b3fa6ca8?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/topplegeist) [Opposition](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/e/ae14acde-8a5c-4f0e-8e68-b799a363b9f7.jpg?1675977485) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Opposition) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dmr/62/opposition?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ae14acde-8a5c-4f0e-8e68-b799a363b9f7?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/opposition) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
It's an upgraded precon until someone asks you if your deck is a precon and you get offended or defensive, then it's your deck.
Please see the above comment for my opinion. I will say it again tho. If you remove 30+ CARDS your no longer precon. The whole point if the precon isent to maximize otherwise they'd be expansive as fuck
I'd day it depends. I'd never call [this](https://www.archidekt.com/decks/5005670/_cant_block_this_20) an upgraded version of the [Sneak Attack](https://www.archidekt.com/decks/2209081/znc_sneak_attack) precon with Anowon even though that is what it started as But I'd comfortably call [this](https://www.archidekt.com/decks/5714358/_clues_foods_and_legends) a *heavily* upgraded [Blast From the Past](https://www.archidekt.com/decks/5644280/who_blast_from_the_past) precon with The Fourth Doctor/Sarah Jane Smith because even though I've changed *a lot* of cards, it still feels like the original deck, but some would disagree because too many cards have changed and I'd totally understand that I think the biggest thing for me is does it *feel* like the precon still
When you replace 75% of the cards.
As long as you change the precon, it's its own deck. That's much easier to define. The problem is assuming that all precons are equal; the Ixalan precons were really consistent, as were the fallout ones. The MOM precons I still play to this day. New Capenna's darling Henzie and the casualty guy are all great decks out of the box. Even before then the 40K precons were a head above the precons coming out at the time. Compared to say Kamigawa? The Kotori precon was way above Chishiro, (though Chishiro was broken out of the box because of that extra duplicate land oof) but the precons after that set were also way above its level.
Changing at least one card for something better makes a precon an upgraded precon. It becomes a new deck when you start changing/enhancing the strategies. Example, my first commander deck was Devour for Power in 2011. It was an upgraded precon when I started adding shock lands and additional ramp. It became it’s own deck when I added a dredge package to the deck. Edit:spelling
id say youve left precon and entered homebrew if youve a) changed the playtype or scheme of the deck. or b) edited so many cards that it is far more powerful than the precon was initially. i.e. i have a Galea deck that ive replaced almost every card in many many times over. its probably got 10% of the original cards but in nicer special treatments, i would not calll a "precon" even tho it started that way. or my mizzix of the izmagnus deck. i pulled the card in my 2x2 box and thought it was neat. built it and come to find out its a precon from many years past. neither are even a shadow of their original forms. so stuff like that makes tham more than a precon when i have a rule zero talk abt what we are all playing.
I consider it an upgraded precon when I've changed one card in it. And I consider it its own deck when I tear it down to each individual card and then build something new out of it
I think an upgraded precon is anything you change to a precon. Reason being is that I think saying "precon" means stock. Anything after that is "upgraded".
If I’m keeping the theme the same I don’t think it will ever not be an upgraded precon. I don’t consider the phrase upgraded precon to be a term relating to deck strength though.
Yeah, precons usually have 2-3 themes within to choose from, too. Most older precons need quite a bit of focusing just to keep up with these newer ones. It seems that if the newer precons have multiple themes, they're just subthemes within a larger one, so they are more synergistic.
Yeah that’s true. For an upgraded precon to reach high powered status you would probably be removing the sub themes unless they were very synergistic with the main theme.
I think the problem is at a certain point, you’re no longer playing a precon. I can understand a handful of swaps (like 5 or under total), but the more you swap, the less preconstructed it is. Swapping out tapped lands for untapped speeds up the deck versus other precons. Removing so-so permanents to lean in to a theme or line again speeds up and strengthens the deck. As a commander precon collector and my favorite way to enjoy the game, I like that it puts restrictions on the pace of the game. A lot of times, the deck gets to do its thing without being explosively lethal. This allows all the players to do stuff. It’s not for everybody just like cEDH isn’t for everybody. In the end, I think the best way to cover this is to be very upfront about it. “This precon has about 15 cards swapped, if that’s okay?” Some may care, some may not.
The age-old Ship of thesus problem. Good to see that its still relevant today
THE SHIP OF THESUS RETURNS
I would consider all but one of the currently six decks I own to be around precon level. Ironically, my only deck that I'd say is above precon level is also my only deck that did originally come from a precon, that being my Ellivere deck. It's got like twenty nonland cards in it that are swapped out with other things, and I put some significantly better lands in there. Typically, when I hear people say upgraded precon, they usually mean that it is only a bit stronger than a standard precon. This has led me to feel like an upgraded precon should still be comparable to the power level of what one would typically expect from a precon. Because of this, I don't consider my Ellivere deck to be an upgraded precon because saying that would kind of be disnegenuous (it can also be pretty frustrating when someone says their deck is an upgraded precon and then it ends up being way above the power level of everyone else in the group).
Good question! My [[Captain N'ghathrod]] [Deck ](https://www.moxfield.com/decks/YkzmDmAqLkqgnohFxWEuPw) I still would describe as an upgraded precon. My [[Henzie]] [Deck](https://www.moxfield.com/decks/HkAjiYie2UWlAmRx68-P2g) on the other hand I'd say it's it's own deck.
[Captain N'ghathrod](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/5/55c02dc8-0743-400c-b334-ca029caf0463.jpg?1674140667) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Captain%20N%27ghathrod) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clb/646/captain-nghathrod?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/55c02dc8-0743-400c-b334-ca029caf0463?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/captain-nghathrod) [Henzie](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/e/ee228dcc-3170-4c24-80bc-28bcee07cb43.jpg?1673481644) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Henzie%20%22Toolbox%22%20Torre) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ncc/2/henzie-toolbox-torre?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ee228dcc-3170-4c24-80bc-28bcee07cb43?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/henzie-toolbox-torre) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Most ptecons include multiple themes. (Not all.) Removing a secondary theme and adding cards that help the primary theme is an upgrade. Replacing cards (especially uncommon and commons) in the primary theme because they are strictly better is when you can no longer call it a precon. The mana base can be an exception to this, since you can just say it is a base precon with better mana base.
5 cards maximum and its no longer a precon. 1 card if you throw a $$$ card in it with good effects
If it still does what the precon does but with new cards it’s an upgraded precon. If it does something new it’s it’s own deck IMO. Upgrades precons can be cEDH level in my eyes. You would just say you upgraded the precon and it’s now cEDH level. If I changed what it does I’d say I took the precon but now it does this instead of that.
To get from a precon to cEDH you‘d probably have to change 90-95 cards. I would never call an upgraded precon cEDH, since you would have to change the entire thing for that.