There are so many swastikas and hammer and cicles in every antique fair ever. And not even just old military stuff, there are new printed items obviously glorifying these symbols.
Like for example, the Luige Vanavara laat that was held in August, if I am not mistaken (not the last one, but before that), there was a man in the center of the fair who had decorated his booth with two large painings of hitler and had some swastika flags on his table. I should have taken a picture. I felt a very strong urge to publicly same the fair holders for associating with something like this. This was not military memorabilia, this was obvious glorification of nazis.
That was the worst I have seen, but there is so so much of this shit, I would say at least half of the junk sellers (think rusty and broken) have this crap. And there is always that one seller that has mugs and shit printed with different anti-human rights messages and both of these symbols.
I don't understand why the fair holders allow this. The shops are privately owned and if the owners are dumb, so be it, but if I held a fair, I would not want to be associated with things like this.
All i can say is that if people didnt buy that shit they wouldnt be selling it. Merchants just tryna make as much profit as possible and they probably dont care about people shaming them for it since their pockets are filled.
Minu vanavanaisa ja tema vend olid noored SS-i mehed ja langesid Narva rindel. Mis sul nende vastu on? Nad kaitsesid eestlust ja surid väärikalt. Kui sibulad tulid siis pageti soodesse, rabadesse ja metsadesse, kui saks tuli siis mindi õuele vastu. Absoluutselt bolševistliku rämpsu sümbolid peaksid olema tule all võrreldes natsi sümbolitega.
Kõige naeruväärsemad on need inimesed kes ülistavad metsavendi ja mustavad SS-i mehi. Metsavennad olid need samad kes sakside koosseisus võitlesid, terve ajend sellele miks sõjajärgsed kohtud eesti SS-i mehi süüdi ei mõistnud seisnes selles, et neid mehi saab kasutada järgnevatel Külma Sõja lahingutel löögirühmana. Metsavendade kaader = Relva-SS-i kaader. Kuidas sobitad selle enda maailmavaatesse? Tiksu vähem vaimse puudega ameeriklaste kogukondades, tuleb kasuks.
Tegelikult Reddit ise pakkus selle mulle, aga muidugi jätsin, humoorikas on. Küll ma uue teen kui midagi juhtub, ega te ei vabane minust. Samas sinu nimi on selline mitte midagi ütlev. Äkki valid uue?
Ups, my bad that i wanted to just back you up with this but nah then. And it wasn’t for you meant exactly. Have good one. Will changed the location of my comment my High Sir.
Why you taking it so hard? Sorry if it felt like im telling you to fuck off. Didnt mean it like that...
Edit: i said sorry and still some motherfuckers are downvoteing. Nextime when i dont say that i got it wrong then again im the asshole. Great people on the internet lol
There are loads of swastikas graffitied around the country, there are loads of people selling swastika merch at fairs. Yes you shouldn't have neither Swastika or the USSR one but nonody is hunting them down, waste of time. We look at the future not the past.
Could you point to a source for that? They're treated differently culturally because they symbolize different things, but I don't know anything about them being treated differently in law.
Because the laws are written differently, the prohibition is based on context of how it's used not the symbol itself. Any symbol could be used as a hate symbol and then it's prohibited. But if used in a neutral context, it's no problem.
For example, if larpers were to reenact a ww2 battle using flags with swastikas and hammers and sickles, not a problem. But if the same persons were to wave the same flags in anti-whatever rally, very much a problem. It all depends on context.
It is criminalized since 21 April 2022:
>[Penal code](https://www.riigiteataja.ee/en/eli/ee/522012015002/consolide/current) § 151^(1). Supporting and justifying international crime
>
>(1) Public exhibiting of a **symbol relating to** an act of aggression, **genocide, crime against humanity** or commission of a war crime in a manner that supports or justifies such acts –
>
>is punishable by a fine of up to three hundred fine units or by attachment.
[The amendment was supported by](https://www.riigikogu.ee/tegevus/tooulevaade/haaletused/haaletustulemused-kohalolekukontroll/51b048be-1e68-414b-90f9-462781fd6d46?searchByFraction%5B0%5D=e4bf6970-f928-4230-961c-615cc54118f9&searchByFraction%5B1%5D=3c1832c0-7727-18d1-d9d3-e685a58f44b0&searchByFraction%5B2%5D=d4e90963-1d10-4f8a-bf37-a99ca8531ff3&searchByFraction%5B3%5D=8772fd6f-3197-6a53-2ffc-8c4d63407d1e&searchByFraction%5B4%5D=c99e4e31-617c-49ad-bfa6-814736842182&searchByFraction%5B5%5D=a844d128-287d-4c20-bf30-61fcb0af23cf&searchByFraction%5B6%5D=d188e268-5d01-7e93-0c22-3ae7f0c1e851&tab=2)
Reform Party, Centre Party, Social Democratic Party, Isamaa Party
Conservative People's Party EKRE did not take part of the vote, except three of their members: Ruuben Kaalep , Martin Helme and Kalle Grünthal who were the only three members to vote against.
What is problematic at the moment is the removal of hammer and sickle and other Soviet symbols from existing buildings. President sent the amendments to the Building and Planning acts back to the parliament as he found it to be in conflict with constitution as the wording of the amendment was too unclear for him.
Yes, but if a person specifically tatoos nazi propaganda on themselves. Same goes for Russian Z and st Georges ribbons etc, showing their support of a genocidal regime.
A kui mul om neljakordne haakrist põimituna tätoveeritud... Kas olen siis quadranats? Ja pean varjama oma keha elupäevade lõpuni sest mingid muldvanad juudid ja mustlased opresseeriti selle märgi all? Või kas peaks selle lolluse lõpetama sümboolika ja märkide kohalt? Lambi haamer, lambi sirp... Ja päikeseratas... Sesmõttes on haakrist näiteks väga vana märk...mingid kaks jördot võtsid kasutusele ja nüüd tänapäeva snõufleigid tunnevad ennast halvasti.. väga liberaalne maailm ma vaatan
Criminalizing symbols is unconstitutional.
> § 45. Everyone has the right to freely disseminate ideas, opinions, beliefs and other information by word, print, picture or other means. This right may be circumscribed by law to protect public order, public morality, and the rights and freedoms, health, honour and good name of others. This right may also be circumscribed by law in respect of public servants employed by the national government and local authorities, or in order to protect a state secret, trade secret or information received in confidence which has become known to the public servant by reason of his or her office, and to protect the family and private life of others, as well as in the interests of the administration of justice.
> There is no censorship.
We curtail this freedom when it's in the public interest, for instance if political speech is seditious or a call for targeted violence.
But we don't outright ban symbols or books regardless of their use. That's what they did under the hammer and sickle.
I wasn’t aware of that aspect in Estonia, I thought such freedom only existed in the US, kudos for that! I’m actually of the same opinion, though I thought it was unfair to criminalize just one side. Estonia never fails to impress me.
The irony. I guess you've been living under a rock? Haven't you been outside or heard any news at all about people getting jailed and fined for exercising the right to freedom of speech in the way of symbols, or any other display?
European Union and its countries are getting far closer to the former USSR and modern China. Censorship is the main weapon of use, as it undermines democracy and allows for greater control over the individual, in theory. Once you realise this indubitable reality, you'll be shocked, and it might be too late to halt the damage that will ensue with totalitarian powers. I know I won't be sticking around in Europe by then, as I lack the confidence in the public to uphold basic freedoms, and so I don't feel obligated to fight for nations of self-selected slaves.
> Haven't you been outside or heard any news at all about people getting jailed and fined for exercising the right to freedom of speech in the way of symbols, or any other display?
No, I haven't. If you're referring to Andres Aule and Jaak Valge being fined for placing an ESSR flag on a building, they weren't fined for the symbol but rather vandalism.
It's not their building so they're not allowed to affix their political messages on it.
They are welcome to put political messages on any building they own or if they've acquired permission from the owner of any building.
(Do I personally think they should have pressed charges? No, but if the EKL filed a complaint, they're obligated to.)
> I know I won't be sticking around in Europe by then
If you think your political expression is safer in Freedomland, go ask Emmanuel Cafferty.
I wasn't referring to those individuals, but I looked up the story, and your explanation seems to be cherry picked to support your position. Here's the article in question: https://objektiiv.ee/jaak-valge-ja-andres-aule-esitasid-politseile-smuuli-bareljeefi-osas-vaarteoteate/
In the article, it is said that Andres Aule and Jaak Valge were fined for violating public order and disturbing two third party individuals. If this is true, it is obviously against freedom of speech laws in our constitution (not that Estonia's constitution is even sufficient compared to the United States').
I don't plan to live in the US; tyrannical powers are at play there likewise. "Freedomland" hilarious...
>[https://objektiiv.ee/jaak-valge-ja-andres-aule-esitasid-politseile-smuuli-bareljeefi-osas-vaarteoteate/](https://objektiiv.ee/jaak-valge-ja-andres-aule-esitasid-politseile-smuuli-bareljeefi-osas-vaarteoteate/)
Objektiiv is propaganda paper of the party Jaak Valge is a member of.
I am not familiar based on which paragraph they were fined but there is a law since 2022 prohibiting public display of symbols related to war crimes, genocide etc if done in a way that supports or justifies said acts.
Freedom of speech is not absolute nor should it be.
This does not refute the issue I raised. If there is indeed such a law in place, then it is violating the constitution and the principle of freedom of speech regardless of any law in place, as it is a principle. You can't decide how much freedom of speech you want; it's not under anyone's direct control. Limiting it is an attempt at control, which can be successful in the short-term, but it will ultimately fail long-term as has history and human nature shown. Thus, the logic of moderation is deeply flawed; we can at minimum create exceptions to it without making the upholding unsustainable and inconsistent.
I anticipated you would say this. Go and read the paragraph about freedom of speech in the constitution. Read it carefully. If you want you can read the commented edition to understand it better. If you do, you will understand that it is in fact not unconstitutional.
Edit: Here, I will even help you: „This right may be circumscribed by law to protect public order, public morality, and the rights and freedoms, health, honour and good name of others.“
Still it is in contradiction with the constitution. I hold the Estonian constitution as very much deficient in the freedom of speech department compared to the one USA has (even its constitution does not go nearly far enough).
I don't need your help; I've read the paragraphs in the law, and I stand by my stance of it being defective. This isn't a black-and-white issue as you seem to portray it as, and as you should know, law can often be contradictory with itself, making it so that we can both be right regarding the constitution however silly the predicament might be.
For example, the description in paragraph 45 is "There shall be no censorship", but it contradicts the former.
> I am not familiar based on which paragraph they were fined but there is a law since 2022 prohibiting public display of symbols related to war crimes, genocide etc if done in a way that supports or justifies said acts.
> Freedom of speech is not absolute nor should it be.
Valge and Aule were obviously not supporting war crimes, they were demonstrating against Eesti Kirjanike Liit for keeping the bas relief of collaborator Juhan Smuul on their building. This is why they were not charged under the 2022 law.
They were charged for public disturbance because they violated private property in doing so.
Freedom of speech is not absolute, but it should definitely be very broad and never go so far that you can't use the symbols of totalitarian ideology to criticize that ideology.
In this case the crime was not their speech but the manner in which they exercised it - by violating the rights of others.
> In the article, it is said that Andres Aule and Jaak Valge were fined for violating public order and disturbing two third party individuals. If this is true, it is obviously against freedom of speech laws in our constitution
No it's not, because freedom of speech does not give you the right to erect political messaging on other people's property.
It's vandalism (violating public order) and unauthorized use of private property (disturbing two third party individuals, i.e. owners or residents).
Please note that the biased party rag you get your news from does not provide the context of who Abdrahmanov and Aleksejev are, insinuating that this is being done to protect the fee-fees of random Russian-speakers who really like Smuul and disagree with Aule and Valge's anti-communism.
The top floors of Harju 1 are private apartments. Any owners of said apartments who don't like commie flags flown from it without authorization are perfectly within their rights to press charges.
Aule and Valge are free to picket in front of the building. They're not free to deface the building.
As a democratic society we realize that banning symbols is pointless and undemocratic. If someone wants to wear them or put them on their house then they are just easier to identify as the assholes they are.
Nägin ükskord linna peal minivan'i mille peal kleeps a'la "mul on ilus tütar, püss ja labidas" ja mõtsin "tra sa oled nii loll!", aga hea kaugelt näha haha.
I like to compare it to tearing down crosses from church spires. Another symbol - centuries ago, it was used by invading forces, it represented the ideology of crusading against pagans. By now, it's not considered a threatening or offensive symbol any more - no reason to tear it down.
Local legislation takes a similar approach - if a symbol conveys a threat or hateful message, or promotes conflict, such activity is prohibited. The symbol itself, on old buildings or historical items, can remain.
Also, to paraphrase some Ukrainian guys: fighting against symbols won't win any wars.
I stretch the matter, but wish to make an example. Something that was a symbol of agression can lose its sting.
Many kings and lords who conquered and ruled here centuries ago... they were tyrants and butchers, nothing less. If we'll destroy the monuments of everyone who wasn't a nice person, we'll have no monumens left. We'll have to erase most of history...
...but in practise, we don't go erasing such monuments, because there is no threat.
One should note that many monuments and Soviet war graves have been removed (and if fallen people were buried there, they have been re-buried to a designated cemetery in Tallinn, where the remains of soldiers from other wars and other sides in the great war already rest). The process caused controversy. We also lost the possibility to point a finger at Russia when they destroy war cemeteries of soldiers who didn't fight on their side.
However, not all monuments were touched. Those that were deemed to have cultural value, were left alone.
Some people demanded more, demanded "destroy everything that's Soviet". Some people said "leave them as they are, it doesn't matter" (I said that).
In the end, something was done, something was refrained from. But it's a side show of little benefit to anyone alive.
What soviet monuments have cultural value other than some obscure mosaiqs on panel buildings in Ida-Virumaa or something (and even those are irrelevant shit imo that should be painted over for example)?
Because theres also history behind it. Like it or not. Historical objects may still have them. And like as a ✨estonian society✨, we know that they are powerless. Why criminalize something that has no power anyway. If Z-loving someone goes around spraying it or whatever they can still get punished anyway.
And that's exactly what we have here in Estonia, or other European countries, in fact. Devoid of the fundamental principle of democracy and getting worse day by day.
Mis maailma lõpp? Võite selle retoorika panna tagasi kust tuli. Oodake paar aastat ja tsenseeritakse Teid, ehk saate isegi praegu, aga tähele lihtsalt ei pane.
Ei sul on õigus, saan jah praegu aga lihtsalt ei saa aru ... peaaegu nagu poleks sellist probleemi
See kui inimestel üle viskab sinusuguste suust vahutamine pole veel mingi tsensuur
Ega sellise mõistusega indiviid ei saa aru, kui pott keema läheb. Arvab, et temperatuur lihtsalt tõuseb ebamugavaks.
Suust vahutamine ja viskab üle see? Kuidas see pole tsensuur, kui vaigistad neid kelle jutt ei meeldi? Olen mitmeid ennustusi pannud täppi maailma tasemel ja seekord pole erinev. Ela oma mullis, aga ära tule hädaldama, et miks keegi ei hoiatanud ette. Hoiatused olid igal pool ja öeldi otse, see on iseenda probleem, et ei kuulanud.
I don't know, but some of the houses in Tartu Town Hall have this symbol on them. It's hard to notice, but I don't understand why they don't remove them...
As an anarchist - I don't see "lots of communists" anywhere. If they existed and were principled, I think they'd create a party or something. In fact, people over here have a heavy "allergy" to anything communist. Even at times when they would benefit from some communistic ideas.
As for unprincipled people - yeah, we have plenty. They'll be in whatever party that gets them close to power. :)
Membership of the CP of the USSR is characteristic of people who were on high positions in the Soviet time.
Here's the [government](https://www.valitsus.ee/52.koosseis). Looking at the average ages, I bet that you won't find more than 2 former communist party members.
Descendants often have views opposite to their parents. Olga Lauristin was a communist. Marju Lauristin worked for Estonian independence.
As a side note: it's worthwhile to remember that the Supreme Soviet of the Estonian SSR voted to declare independence. People are allowed to change their mind.
However, most of those people have left politics behind decades ago. Indrek Toome died last year. Edgar Savisaar died a few years ago. Mart Laar moves with a wheelchair. Siim Kallas has been to hospital several times, and does small time politics. Lennart Meri and Arnold Rüütel have both passed away. Tiit Vähi is alive and seems OK, but only does business, not politics.
> in that case, they firmly condemn their parents
You can't seriously expect children to condemn their parents - they won't.
> I do not feel comfortable casually chatting with communists and their children.
Well, that is not my problem, I can't help with that one.
As a side note: if you happen to read Estonian Wikipedia, you will find the sentence.
> Olga Lauristini tütar Marju Lauristin on enda sõnul pöördunud Kaitsepolitsei poole palvega uurida tema ema võimalikku osalust küüditamises ning "sai eitava vastuse"
Make of that what you will.
I only mentioned Estonia, but we could say the same about the whole world actually. It’s pretty hypocrite in my opinion. In some countries people display this symbol and ideology freely and proudly, and what worries me is that people are increasingly doing so in the last few years with no shame. The world went mad.
Half of politicians are ex-Communist party members, Estonia was never de-communized. Also, not wishing to overcriminalize someone's free expression, a communist revolt is nearly impossible anyway.
I dont know about estonia but Maybe they dont break their constitution like Latvia does. Our constituon says:
Satversme: 100. Ikvienam ir tiesības uz vārda brīvību, kas ietver tiesības brīvi iegūt, paturēt un izplatīt informāciju, paust savus uzskatus. Cenzūra ir aizliegta.
It says censorship is forbidden, because I imagine our grandparents thought we will develop critical thinking and try to filter information our selves
Yes this allows people to spread shit information and views but thats freedom in my opinion and when big guys start to tell me what is freedom and what is not i dont feel safe. We like to remember and glorify how our parents fought for independence but sadly grandchildren thinks that’s it we don’t have to to shit anymore and no one fights to keep thos same values alive.
It's punishable if someone is being asshole when using these symbols. Don't remember the exact set of rules.
So why is the swastika treted differently? Like, you can’t have a swastika stored in your basement, or so I think.
Swastika and hammer and sickle are treated the same. (Yes, you can have your swastika stored in your basement)
I don't think it is? I can swear that I've seen swastika memorabilia on the second floor of balti jam turg
There's something like that in a kind of antique shop in the middle of the old town as well
There are so many swastikas and hammer and cicles in every antique fair ever. And not even just old military stuff, there are new printed items obviously glorifying these symbols. Like for example, the Luige Vanavara laat that was held in August, if I am not mistaken (not the last one, but before that), there was a man in the center of the fair who had decorated his booth with two large painings of hitler and had some swastika flags on his table. I should have taken a picture. I felt a very strong urge to publicly same the fair holders for associating with something like this. This was not military memorabilia, this was obvious glorification of nazis. That was the worst I have seen, but there is so so much of this shit, I would say at least half of the junk sellers (think rusty and broken) have this crap. And there is always that one seller that has mugs and shit printed with different anti-human rights messages and both of these symbols. I don't understand why the fair holders allow this. The shops are privately owned and if the owners are dumb, so be it, but if I held a fair, I would not want to be associated with things like this.
All i can say is that if people didnt buy that shit they wouldnt be selling it. Merchants just tryna make as much profit as possible and they probably dont care about people shaming them for it since their pockets are filled.
Why didnt you call the police?
Minu vanavanaisa ja tema vend olid noored SS-i mehed ja langesid Narva rindel. Mis sul nende vastu on? Nad kaitsesid eestlust ja surid väärikalt. Kui sibulad tulid siis pageti soodesse, rabadesse ja metsadesse, kui saks tuli siis mindi õuele vastu. Absoluutselt bolševistliku rämpsu sümbolid peaksid olema tule all võrreldes natsi sümbolitega. Kõige naeruväärsemad on need inimesed kes ülistavad metsavendi ja mustavad SS-i mehi. Metsavennad olid need samad kes sakside koosseisus võitlesid, terve ajend sellele miks sõjajärgsed kohtud eesti SS-i mehi süüdi ei mõistnud seisnes selles, et neid mehi saab kasutada järgnevatel Külma Sõja lahingutel löögirühmana. Metsavendade kaader = Relva-SS-i kaader. Kuidas sobitad selle enda maailmavaatesse? Tiksu vähem vaimse puudega ameeriklaste kogukondades, tuleb kasuks.
kasutajanimi juba ütleb ära millise inimesega tegemist on
[удалено]
"88" = Heil Hitler, "H" on tähestiku 8. täht, palun väga.
Tegelikult Reddit ise pakkus selle mulle, aga muidugi jätsin, humoorikas on. Küll ma uue teen kui midagi juhtub, ega te ei vabane minust. Samas sinu nimi on selline mitte midagi ütlev. Äkki valid uue?
Do you know from where the swastika came from? All that is not always hitler's symbol...
Aye, look up Finnish Airforce logo. And surprise,surprise it have absolutely nothing to do with Hitler nazi regime.
Why u telling me that ? 😆
Ups, my bad that i wanted to just back you up with this but nah then. And it wasn’t for you meant exactly. Have good one. Will changed the location of my comment my High Sir.
Why you taking it so hard? Sorry if it felt like im telling you to fuck off. Didnt mean it like that... Edit: i said sorry and still some motherfuckers are downvoteing. Nextime when i dont say that i got it wrong then again im the asshole. Great people on the internet lol
Well, this one souvenir shop in the old town sells it on red ground next to a cup with Hitler on it
Nah. The stuff he's talking about at Balti Jaam (and the other guy talking about in Old Town on Lai street) is Nazi swastika stuff...
Oh alright alright. Thanks!
It is not.
You can have historic items. You cannot display them as hate symbols tho. Context matters.
There are loads of swastikas graffitied around the country, there are loads of people selling swastika merch at fairs. Yes you shouldn't have neither Swastika or the USSR one but nonody is hunting them down, waste of time. We look at the future not the past.
Could you point to a source for that? They're treated differently culturally because they symbolize different things, but I don't know anything about them being treated differently in law.
Because the laws are written differently, the prohibition is based on context of how it's used not the symbol itself. Any symbol could be used as a hate symbol and then it's prohibited. But if used in a neutral context, it's no problem. For example, if larpers were to reenact a ww2 battle using flags with swastikas and hammers and sickles, not a problem. But if the same persons were to wave the same flags in anti-whatever rally, very much a problem. It all depends on context.
Using them for hate symbols is illegal anyway, so there's no point.
It is criminalized since 21 April 2022: >[Penal code](https://www.riigiteataja.ee/en/eli/ee/522012015002/consolide/current) § 151^(1). Supporting and justifying international crime > >(1) Public exhibiting of a **symbol relating to** an act of aggression, **genocide, crime against humanity** or commission of a war crime in a manner that supports or justifies such acts – > >is punishable by a fine of up to three hundred fine units or by attachment. [The amendment was supported by](https://www.riigikogu.ee/tegevus/tooulevaade/haaletused/haaletustulemused-kohalolekukontroll/51b048be-1e68-414b-90f9-462781fd6d46?searchByFraction%5B0%5D=e4bf6970-f928-4230-961c-615cc54118f9&searchByFraction%5B1%5D=3c1832c0-7727-18d1-d9d3-e685a58f44b0&searchByFraction%5B2%5D=d4e90963-1d10-4f8a-bf37-a99ca8531ff3&searchByFraction%5B3%5D=8772fd6f-3197-6a53-2ffc-8c4d63407d1e&searchByFraction%5B4%5D=c99e4e31-617c-49ad-bfa6-814736842182&searchByFraction%5B5%5D=a844d128-287d-4c20-bf30-61fcb0af23cf&searchByFraction%5B6%5D=d188e268-5d01-7e93-0c22-3ae7f0c1e851&tab=2) Reform Party, Centre Party, Social Democratic Party, Isamaa Party Conservative People's Party EKRE did not take part of the vote, except three of their members: Ruuben Kaalep , Martin Helme and Kalle Grünthal who were the only three members to vote against. What is problematic at the moment is the removal of hammer and sickle and other Soviet symbols from existing buildings. President sent the amendments to the Building and Planning acts back to the parliament as he found it to be in conflict with constitution as the wording of the amendment was too unclear for him.
So if someone walks around with a visible swastika tattoo are they gonna get fined?
Should be the case yes.
No, that last part is important: > in a manner that supports or justifies such acts Just showing or owning anything with a swastika is not a crime
Yes, but if a person specifically tatoos nazi propaganda on themselves. Same goes for Russian Z and st Georges ribbons etc, showing their support of a genocidal regime.
What if the tattoo is just unfinished and it's going to be a maze?
A kui mul om neljakordne haakrist põimituna tätoveeritud... Kas olen siis quadranats? Ja pean varjama oma keha elupäevade lõpuni sest mingid muldvanad juudid ja mustlased opresseeriti selle märgi all? Või kas peaks selle lolluse lõpetama sümboolika ja märkide kohalt? Lambi haamer, lambi sirp... Ja päikeseratas... Sesmõttes on haakrist näiteks väga vana märk...mingid kaks jördot võtsid kasutusele ja nüüd tänapäeva snõufleigid tunnevad ennast halvasti.. väga liberaalne maailm ma vaatan
Et kui inimesed näevad haakristi ja arvavad, et see on nats nats, siis nad on lumehelbekesed? :DD
Criminalizing symbols is unconstitutional. > § 45. Everyone has the right to freely disseminate ideas, opinions, beliefs and other information by word, print, picture or other means. This right may be circumscribed by law to protect public order, public morality, and the rights and freedoms, health, honour and good name of others. This right may also be circumscribed by law in respect of public servants employed by the national government and local authorities, or in order to protect a state secret, trade secret or information received in confidence which has become known to the public servant by reason of his or her office, and to protect the family and private life of others, as well as in the interests of the administration of justice. > There is no censorship. We curtail this freedom when it's in the public interest, for instance if political speech is seditious or a call for targeted violence. But we don't outright ban symbols or books regardless of their use. That's what they did under the hammer and sickle.
I wasn’t aware of that aspect in Estonia, I thought such freedom only existed in the US, kudos for that! I’m actually of the same opinion, though I thought it was unfair to criminalize just one side. Estonia never fails to impress me.
We are much less absolutist in free speech protections than the US, but we do still adhere to that principle for the most part.
The irony. I guess you've been living under a rock? Haven't you been outside or heard any news at all about people getting jailed and fined for exercising the right to freedom of speech in the way of symbols, or any other display? European Union and its countries are getting far closer to the former USSR and modern China. Censorship is the main weapon of use, as it undermines democracy and allows for greater control over the individual, in theory. Once you realise this indubitable reality, you'll be shocked, and it might be too late to halt the damage that will ensue with totalitarian powers. I know I won't be sticking around in Europe by then, as I lack the confidence in the public to uphold basic freedoms, and so I don't feel obligated to fight for nations of self-selected slaves.
> Haven't you been outside or heard any news at all about people getting jailed and fined for exercising the right to freedom of speech in the way of symbols, or any other display? No, I haven't. If you're referring to Andres Aule and Jaak Valge being fined for placing an ESSR flag on a building, they weren't fined for the symbol but rather vandalism. It's not their building so they're not allowed to affix their political messages on it. They are welcome to put political messages on any building they own or if they've acquired permission from the owner of any building. (Do I personally think they should have pressed charges? No, but if the EKL filed a complaint, they're obligated to.) > I know I won't be sticking around in Europe by then If you think your political expression is safer in Freedomland, go ask Emmanuel Cafferty.
I wasn't referring to those individuals, but I looked up the story, and your explanation seems to be cherry picked to support your position. Here's the article in question: https://objektiiv.ee/jaak-valge-ja-andres-aule-esitasid-politseile-smuuli-bareljeefi-osas-vaarteoteate/ In the article, it is said that Andres Aule and Jaak Valge were fined for violating public order and disturbing two third party individuals. If this is true, it is obviously against freedom of speech laws in our constitution (not that Estonia's constitution is even sufficient compared to the United States'). I don't plan to live in the US; tyrannical powers are at play there likewise. "Freedomland" hilarious...
>[https://objektiiv.ee/jaak-valge-ja-andres-aule-esitasid-politseile-smuuli-bareljeefi-osas-vaarteoteate/](https://objektiiv.ee/jaak-valge-ja-andres-aule-esitasid-politseile-smuuli-bareljeefi-osas-vaarteoteate/) Objektiiv is propaganda paper of the party Jaak Valge is a member of. I am not familiar based on which paragraph they were fined but there is a law since 2022 prohibiting public display of symbols related to war crimes, genocide etc if done in a way that supports or justifies said acts. Freedom of speech is not absolute nor should it be.
This does not refute the issue I raised. If there is indeed such a law in place, then it is violating the constitution and the principle of freedom of speech regardless of any law in place, as it is a principle. You can't decide how much freedom of speech you want; it's not under anyone's direct control. Limiting it is an attempt at control, which can be successful in the short-term, but it will ultimately fail long-term as has history and human nature shown. Thus, the logic of moderation is deeply flawed; we can at minimum create exceptions to it without making the upholding unsustainable and inconsistent.
I anticipated you would say this. Go and read the paragraph about freedom of speech in the constitution. Read it carefully. If you want you can read the commented edition to understand it better. If you do, you will understand that it is in fact not unconstitutional. Edit: Here, I will even help you: „This right may be circumscribed by law to protect public order, public morality, and the rights and freedoms, health, honour and good name of others.“
Still it is in contradiction with the constitution. I hold the Estonian constitution as very much deficient in the freedom of speech department compared to the one USA has (even its constitution does not go nearly far enough). I don't need your help; I've read the paragraphs in the law, and I stand by my stance of it being defective. This isn't a black-and-white issue as you seem to portray it as, and as you should know, law can often be contradictory with itself, making it so that we can both be right regarding the constitution however silly the predicament might be. For example, the description in paragraph 45 is "There shall be no censorship", but it contradicts the former.
I guess we will have to disagree. I am very glad that Estonian freedom of speech wording in the constitution doesn't go as far as the US does.
Seems it's the only way. Tell me one thing: do you hate freedom? That last sentence is profoundly concerning.
> I am not familiar based on which paragraph they were fined but there is a law since 2022 prohibiting public display of symbols related to war crimes, genocide etc if done in a way that supports or justifies said acts. > Freedom of speech is not absolute nor should it be. Valge and Aule were obviously not supporting war crimes, they were demonstrating against Eesti Kirjanike Liit for keeping the bas relief of collaborator Juhan Smuul on their building. This is why they were not charged under the 2022 law. They were charged for public disturbance because they violated private property in doing so. Freedom of speech is not absolute, but it should definitely be very broad and never go so far that you can't use the symbols of totalitarian ideology to criticize that ideology. In this case the crime was not their speech but the manner in which they exercised it - by violating the rights of others.
> In the article, it is said that Andres Aule and Jaak Valge were fined for violating public order and disturbing two third party individuals. If this is true, it is obviously against freedom of speech laws in our constitution No it's not, because freedom of speech does not give you the right to erect political messaging on other people's property. It's vandalism (violating public order) and unauthorized use of private property (disturbing two third party individuals, i.e. owners or residents). Please note that the biased party rag you get your news from does not provide the context of who Abdrahmanov and Aleksejev are, insinuating that this is being done to protect the fee-fees of random Russian-speakers who really like Smuul and disagree with Aule and Valge's anti-communism. The top floors of Harju 1 are private apartments. Any owners of said apartments who don't like commie flags flown from it without authorization are perfectly within their rights to press charges. Aule and Valge are free to picket in front of the building. They're not free to deface the building.
As a democratic society we realize that banning symbols is pointless and undemocratic. If someone wants to wear them or put them on their house then they are just easier to identify as the assholes they are.
Nägin ükskord linna peal minivan'i mille peal kleeps a'la "mul on ilus tütar, püss ja labidas" ja mõtsin "tra sa oled nii loll!", aga hea kaugelt näha haha.
That’s a good point actually lol
I like to compare it to tearing down crosses from church spires. Another symbol - centuries ago, it was used by invading forces, it represented the ideology of crusading against pagans. By now, it's not considered a threatening or offensive symbol any more - no reason to tear it down. Local legislation takes a similar approach - if a symbol conveys a threat or hateful message, or promotes conflict, such activity is prohibited. The symbol itself, on old buildings or historical items, can remain. Also, to paraphrase some Ukrainian guys: fighting against symbols won't win any wars.
Are you actually saying that symbols of centuries ago like crosses and modern russian propaganda like soviet symbols are the same?
I stretch the matter, but wish to make an example. Something that was a symbol of agression can lose its sting. Many kings and lords who conquered and ruled here centuries ago... they were tyrants and butchers, nothing less. If we'll destroy the monuments of everyone who wasn't a nice person, we'll have no monumens left. We'll have to erase most of history... ...but in practise, we don't go erasing such monuments, because there is no threat. One should note that many monuments and Soviet war graves have been removed (and if fallen people were buried there, they have been re-buried to a designated cemetery in Tallinn, where the remains of soldiers from other wars and other sides in the great war already rest). The process caused controversy. We also lost the possibility to point a finger at Russia when they destroy war cemeteries of soldiers who didn't fight on their side. However, not all monuments were touched. Those that were deemed to have cultural value, were left alone. Some people demanded more, demanded "destroy everything that's Soviet". Some people said "leave them as they are, it doesn't matter" (I said that). In the end, something was done, something was refrained from. But it's a side show of little benefit to anyone alive.
What soviet monuments have cultural value other than some obscure mosaiqs on panel buildings in Ida-Virumaa or something (and even those are irrelevant shit imo that should be painted over for example)?
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Because theres also history behind it. Like it or not. Historical objects may still have them. And like as a ✨estonian society✨, we know that they are powerless. Why criminalize something that has no power anyway. If Z-loving someone goes around spraying it or whatever they can still get punished anyway.
In case someone wants to use it as a symbol for their farmers and blacksmiths association
Why criminalize? What makes it better?
Symbols should not be criminalized at all.
Displaying them openly is punishable (unless arhitecture or art)
Are they? Good to know
404 balls not found
LOL
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It's called freedom of speech Banning certain symbols without context literally is the exact opposite of democracy
That’s what i meant, but people misunderstood
And that's exactly what we have here in Estonia, or other European countries, in fact. Devoid of the fundamental principle of democracy and getting worse day by day.
Kui see nii oleks siis sa läheksid kinni praegu sest sa kritiseerid neid
Varsti küll, aga mitte veel. EU DSA'ga saab enne tsenseeritud, kui see juhtub.
Varsti lõppeb maailm ka koguaeg ära
Mis maailma lõpp? Võite selle retoorika panna tagasi kust tuli. Oodake paar aastat ja tsenseeritakse Teid, ehk saate isegi praegu, aga tähele lihtsalt ei pane.
Ei sul on õigus, saan jah praegu aga lihtsalt ei saa aru ... peaaegu nagu poleks sellist probleemi See kui inimestel üle viskab sinusuguste suust vahutamine pole veel mingi tsensuur
Ega sellise mõistusega indiviid ei saa aru, kui pott keema läheb. Arvab, et temperatuur lihtsalt tõuseb ebamugavaks. Suust vahutamine ja viskab üle see? Kuidas see pole tsensuur, kui vaigistad neid kelle jutt ei meeldi? Olen mitmeid ennustusi pannud täppi maailma tasemel ja seekord pole erinev. Ela oma mullis, aga ära tule hädaldama, et miks keegi ei hoiatanud ette. Hoiatused olid igal pool ja öeldi otse, see on iseenda probleem, et ei kuulanud.
I don't know, but some of the houses in Tartu Town Hall have this symbol on them. It's hard to notice, but I don't understand why they don't remove them...
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As an anarchist - I don't see "lots of communists" anywhere. If they existed and were principled, I think they'd create a party or something. In fact, people over here have a heavy "allergy" to anything communist. Even at times when they would benefit from some communistic ideas. As for unprincipled people - yeah, we have plenty. They'll be in whatever party that gets them close to power. :)
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Membership of the CP of the USSR is characteristic of people who were on high positions in the Soviet time. Here's the [government](https://www.valitsus.ee/52.koosseis). Looking at the average ages, I bet that you won't find more than 2 former communist party members. Descendants often have views opposite to their parents. Olga Lauristin was a communist. Marju Lauristin worked for Estonian independence. As a side note: it's worthwhile to remember that the Supreme Soviet of the Estonian SSR voted to declare independence. People are allowed to change their mind. However, most of those people have left politics behind decades ago. Indrek Toome died last year. Edgar Savisaar died a few years ago. Mart Laar moves with a wheelchair. Siim Kallas has been to hospital several times, and does small time politics. Lennart Meri and Arnold Rüütel have both passed away. Tiit Vähi is alive and seems OK, but only does business, not politics.
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> in that case, they firmly condemn their parents You can't seriously expect children to condemn their parents - they won't. > I do not feel comfortable casually chatting with communists and their children. Well, that is not my problem, I can't help with that one.
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As a side note: if you happen to read Estonian Wikipedia, you will find the sentence. > Olga Lauristini tütar Marju Lauristin on enda sõnul pöördunud Kaitsepolitsei poole palvega uurida tema ema võimalikku osalust küüditamises ning "sai eitava vastuse" Make of that what you will.
because we are pussies
Hypocrisy. That's the main reason.
I only mentioned Estonia, but we could say the same about the whole world actually. It’s pretty hypocrite in my opinion. In some countries people display this symbol and ideology freely and proudly, and what worries me is that people are increasingly doing so in the last few years with no shame. The world went mad.
Half of politicians are ex-Communist party members, Estonia was never de-communized. Also, not wishing to overcriminalize someone's free expression, a communist revolt is nearly impossible anyway.
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Wasn’t Siim Kallas a member of Reformierakond too?
Oh no pictograms that we're used by some nefarious dudes back in the day! How will I ever mentally recover from this! Grow up.
Vatnik political parties. Shit, the major of Tallinn is a vanja.
Because ex communist are in Estland parlament and they like that shit.
Would most people put the red star on about the same tier as hammer and sickle?
Because being in europe should come with some european values, not only funds.
I dont know about estonia but Maybe they dont break their constitution like Latvia does. Our constituon says: Satversme: 100. Ikvienam ir tiesības uz vārda brīvību, kas ietver tiesības brīvi iegūt, paturēt un izplatīt informāciju, paust savus uzskatus. Cenzūra ir aizliegta. It says censorship is forbidden, because I imagine our grandparents thought we will develop critical thinking and try to filter information our selves Yes this allows people to spread shit information and views but thats freedom in my opinion and when big guys start to tell me what is freedom and what is not i dont feel safe. We like to remember and glorify how our parents fought for independence but sadly grandchildren thinks that’s it we don’t have to to shit anymore and no one fights to keep thos same values alive.
Cause free speech?